The Cabinet
Carwyn Jones - First Minister
Ieuan Wyn Jones - Deputy First Minister, Economy and Transport
Jane Hutt - Business and Budget
Edwina Hart - Health and Social Services
Jane Davidson - Environment, Sustainability and Housing
Leighton Andrews - Children, Education and Lifelong Learning
Carl Sargeant - Social Justice and Local Government
Elin Jones - Rural Affairs
Alun Ffred Jones - Culture
Deputies:
Lesley Griffiths - Skills, Innovation and Science
Jocelyn Davies - Housing and Regeneration
Gwenda Thomas - Social Services
Huw Lewis - Children
John Griffiths - Counsel General and Leader of the Legislative Programme
Janice Gregory - Chief Whip
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~29~RS~)
Comments
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The list puts Plaid in the third division, only time will tell for the rest, how many will migrate from mediocrity to the premier division we wonder.
Notice Hutt is well placed to use her wit and charm for the benefit of wealth creation and poor Huw is transferred to the nursery for realignment.
The extreme danger areas remain with Plaid, the party of division, Culture excludes majority English, Rural Affairs a hotbed for the hunt, and Housing will be used by the extremists to create legislative boundaries.
Now is the time to create a safety net to make sure the miss-match at the Bay of Plenty earn their very inflated salaries, first step is to modify the rules for a referendum, help democracy.
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Stoney - you talk rubbish sometimes - Plaid have exactly the same Ministerial portfolios as before the reshuffle
How goes your referendum petition??
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penddu, because something has not changed does not make it right, there should be no Plaid in government unless they win a majority at an election, Labour should have run with a minority government until beaten then returned to the people, the cowards chose the easy option, an undemocratic coalition where constant compromise with a party intent on destroying our country was chosen instead of good governance.
Starts in earnest at the new year, the Assembly caused quite a delay.
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I smell sour grapes..... Coalitions are the norm in most countries in the world..... as they provide stable government, as opposed to continual repeat elections.
There is almost certainly going to be another one after 2011 - which might even be a Conservative led??
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No surprises a Plaid Government.
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Saw them standing on steps of Welsh Office and what a "motley" crew as old Captain Pugwash used to say. Poor old " Edwina",standing on periphery,but with most money to spend looked like her future was behind her and as we all know thats pretty impressivel. To see IWJ (Chief Splitter) standing along side the First Minister made my stomach turn and why is he and rest of splitters in GOVERNMENT.Let all people who believe in UK combine at next "mickey mouse" election and confront their prospective AM's to comit that they would NEVER go into coalition with the "splitters",who can there be consigned to the wilderness.
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No sour grapes penddu, I believe that a coalition should go to the electorate as a coalition, no-matter what the make-up, it should be the electorate that decide not party membership, what happened between Labour and Plaid disenfranchised the majority of people in Wales, the people who make up the WAG today are an applied dictatorship.
As for a coalition between the Conservative Party and Plaid .... heaven forbid, that would generate sufficient vitriol to supply plant Earth.
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What are they doing appointing Uncle Fester as Social Justice and Local Government Minister?
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Can anybody give me an opinion on
Lesley Griffiths - Skills, Innovation and Science
I assume this is going to include universities
Thanks
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9. She used to work in Maelor Hospital but qualifies for the remit by
being a school governor. Her website says she is a strong Devolusionist?
Enough said!!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Fortunately rbs_temp, writing at #11 .....
..... when you write It's time you dropped your bizarre obsession with Lampeter University.
..... the democrats amongst us will ask who is rbs_temp to tell us what questions to ask?
We have freedom of expression in the United Kingdom, and are entitled to pursue the opinions of others.
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As Professor Kevin Morgan has rightly suggested, if the Assembly is to work as an institution, we need AMs who are adequately qualified to handle their portfolios. Is there no one among Labour ranks with expertise either in business or in science?
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I can't see Edwina being happy in this Cabinet and its composition seems to suggest that there'll be more pandering to the separatists.
Never before has there been greater need in Wales for the Gnatswatter!
There'd be a welcome for you in True Wales, Edwina.....
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#12 Stoney..
Thank you for supporting democracy.
This is not a personal issue but a matter of principal that concerns a number of people, I am just the spokesperson.
Clearly people have a bizarre obsession with concealing maladminstration from the public. They are in deep psychological denial that these things can possibly happen for fear that the whole higher education system will collapse taking the Assembly with it!
Its interesting that we now have a Minister for Skills Innovation and Science that in some way imitates Westminster.
I am aware that a department that comes under the Westminster Business Innovation and Skills Minister the Department of Business, Enterprise Regulatory and Reform or BERR has been looking at Lampeter University and it maybe that as a result of lessons learned all English and Welsh universites could be subject to reform.
You only have to look at the comments made by Peter Mandleson to realise that some kind of vote winning reform to appeal to the student vote is possibly on the way!
If that is the case I would prefer it is it was done for the benefit of students and not just to win votes.
The issue is how to get issues to the Minister when there is an attitude you have just witnessed coming from those who job it is to ensure standards!
It will be interesting to see how my petition for more transparency and accountability in higher education is seen by the new Ministerial appointment.
The assembly has an real chance to sieze the opportunity and demonstrate leadership or we can wait for reform to be imposed by Westminster.
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I see the Quislings are out in force...
"there should be no Plaid in government unless they win a majority at an election, Labour should have run with a minority government until beaten then returned to the people"
So Labour should run with a minority government but Plaid need a majority? Makes no sense.
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14 - While I agree with Edwina's uncomfortable appearance - and bizarre dress sense - you are are way off in suggesting she might want to join Untrue Wales - she is on record as being very strongly in favour of full law-making powers.
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I think Plaid Cymru have done very well out of FM Carwyn:
They have Economy and Transport and Regeneration: thats the whole department, so it will be Plaid Ministers who have thier face on every new regneration development.
They already have a commitment from FM Carwyn for a referendum.
Its not a really radical change of cabinet however just a bit of gloss paint around the edges.
proves that Edwina Hart carries enough weight to keep her grip on the portfolio with the biggest budget!
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Well, there we are. Time will tell. I'm glad that all three more than competent Plaid ministers retain their portfolios. And congratulations to Elin Jones - AM of the year!
A recent trend among the No to Wales campaign members in here is to suggest that the Welsh nats just want to shut up the Brit nats. Having looked backed at the past couple of days, nothing could be further from the truth. Their anger now seems to have reached fever pitch. We WANT you to say something, something new and different, engage and debate; but all we get are the usual soundbites of hate: the same message day after day after day.
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Re 19
I meant to type 'on here' and 'looked back'...
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Re 21
gnat,
Still nothing to say, it would seem...
I see that Janice Gregory is Chief Whip. Does anybody know how this works in relation to the coalition?
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During the hustings, Carwyn promised that he would consult Labour Party members on the referendum issue. He also pledged that he was fully committed to safeguarding Wales' place in the UK. Giving so much ground to the separatists in these early days of his leadership doesn't inspire confidence.
19. It's difficult to understand why Elin 'Badger Assassin' Jones is now being lionised. I hope we don't come to see the badger cull decision as a victory of political expediency over science.
For something new and different, try this:
http://www.truewalesnocampaign.org.uk/The_True_Devolution_Charter.html
Show us that you can practise what you preach.
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Notonationalism, don't be too down, things might not be as they seem .... try the following as an alternative scenario .....
Good lunch Mr. Jones ……
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#3 Stonemason
Hate to get involved, but am I correct in saying that the Plaid list member who received my vote in South East Wales is now batting for your side? I'm guessing that that is just the rub of the green, though.
Am I also correct in saying that between them, the two parties that form the government have in excess of 50% of the vote? I'm sure that we usually get governments with less than 50%. Strange thing, this democracy, isn't it?
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As I understand it a politician, although elected on a particular ticket, will represent all the people in his/her constituency, so you have nothing to worry about.
I don't remember seeing any reference to a Labour / Plaid coalition before casting my vote, such dishonesty is typically Nationalist and chums. How many votes were collected in that particular net of deceit.
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#25 Good Point on Democracy
Just as we need a system of Recall to force a by-election when an AM switches from one party to another the same collective principle applies to all AM's in political parties.
#26 Stoney Good Answer
Those of us who voted Labour to uphold the traditions of the ordinary person against the might of establishment feel betrayed when they join up with Plaid to create a situation whereby the tail wags the dog.
Therefore to get elected they need to stand as as the Llafur/Plaid Party and not oppose one another in any elections. But would they get over 50% of the poll?
That will then present voters with a clear choice of political parties and what their candidates stand for. (apart from selling us out to get or stay in power or a job).
I take issue with your point about politicians representing all the people, you should now by now they only represent Yes voters. They will not represent anybody who are victims of maladministration of incompetence, that is to be kept firmly under wraps by all sides to stifle the No vote's call for transparency and reform. Politicians want the power for themselves and on no account should it be handed over to the people.
This coalition cabinet should address these issues and seek a mandate from the electorate instead of party members deciding who we are going to be governed by and who is going to be first minister.
So what we want to hear from Plaid is the call for an election to appoint Carwyn Jones as First Minister as he has in effect changed sides.
After all they spent a fortune on an advertising campaign claiming to be our our side, now is the time to prove it.
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26
Stonemason
Am I wrong or didn't the Conservatives try to get a coalition Government together with Plaid Cymru. That Cabinet list would be very diferent today.
I don't remember seeing any reference to that either before casting my vote.
It would have been interesting if the LibDems hadn't dithered to have seen your take on that and how dishonest you would have found it if it had come about.
I see your petition is going well 9 names so far and Wee Willie Winkey is one of them.
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I am consistent in my view of coalitions, any coalition, if it has not been formed prior to a vote it cannot be considered honest or democratic, so be assured, if the Conservatives formed a coalition with Plaid, or any other political party or group for that matter, without going back to the electorate I would find it unworthy of support.
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#26 Stonemason
Am I understanding you correctly that you believe that any election that doesn't throw up a single party with a majority should be re-run and re-run until an overall majority is achieved? Or that coalitions should be illegal unless specifically mentioned in pre-election manifestos? I'd be interested to hear the justification behind that view.
I'm particularly interested to know how the necessity to mention coalitions pre-election is squared with the democratically acceptable policy (in you view) of standing for a party who's policies you disagree with, (and specifically lying about it in interviews) and then changing sides. Mohammad "Vicar of Bray" Asghar may still be technically representing the whole electorate, but it would seem to me that he is actually representing himself.
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I don't have to justify the logic, the logic stands on its own merit. If a coalition hasn't been voted upon, it cannot be democratic, it is an imposition.
With regard to your second paragraph, I don't know a Mohammad "Vicar of Bray" Asghar so am unable to comment.
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31
Stonemason
They say there is a possibility the next General election will not have an overall majority for any party.
Which means no one party will be able to form a credible Government and they will have to form one with another party.
Surely if the country votes for no particular party to govern they are voting for a coalition of parties.
As was voted by the electorate in Wales at the last Assembly elections, hence a coalition of parties that are able to govern.
If no single party wins a working majority what is your answer to how the country should be governed.
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So all coalitions are invalid unless they are pre election pacts, No one should ever be in coalition with Plaid (even thought he Tories were keen to be in coalition with them) and you support a program of removing the PR elements from the National Assembly... well your democratic credentials are looking somewhat tattered Stonemason. True Wales continues is program of lies and misinformation - for example stating that there would be no scrutiny of Welsh Legislation if the National Assembly was to get primary legislative powers - ignoring the scrutiny that would be given by the National Assembly.
Back in the real world, not much has been changed by the change at the top, more of the same, but that is what you would expect from any coalition that has a 4 year program voted for and approved by the membership of both constituent parties.
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#33
You seem to be visually impaired, I refer you to #29.
There also seems to be problems of recollection, the problem I have with the Welsh PR system is "the list", I, like the majority of the public, prefer to vote for the person.
Your .... Scrutiny by the National Assembly, when I stopped laughing I realised you were being serious.
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'True Wales continues is program of lies and misinformation - for example stating that there would be no scrutiny of Welsh Legislation if the National Assembly was to get primary legislative powers - ignoring the scrutiny that would be given by the National Assembly'.
And what scrutiny would that be, Lyn? No one seems able to tell us.
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31
Stonemason
I am consistent in my view of coalitions, any coalition, if it has not been formed prior to a vote it cannot be considered honest or democratic, so be assured, if the Conservatives formed a coalition with Plaid, or any other political party or group for that matter, without going back to the electorate I would find it unworthy of support.
To be honest and democratic would it be better, in your opinion, for all candidates to stand as Independents and then they could honestly say they would be prepared to form a coalition Government.
No party is going so stand on that ticket, it would be political suicide. They are all standing to win outright, or so they tell us.
Incidentally, your argument is always about the money that is being wasted in and on the Welsh Assembly.
Yet, you are quite prepared to have millions spent on another election immediately after the first if that one doesn't produce a working majority, to find if a coalition is worthy of support. Odd.
I ask you again. If no single party wins a working majority what is your answer to how the country should be governed.
Especially as it would also take some considerable time, if at all, to have another election up and running. So who would run the country in the interim period.
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The SNP in Edinburgh has managed quite well, the largest party but in a minority. It's democratic, the public can see exactly how elected representatives protect their interests, or otherwise.
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Re 31
Prejudice is not logic...
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37
The SNP in Edinburgh has managed quite well, the largest party but in a minority. It's democratic, the public can see exactly how elected representatives protect their interests, or otherwise.
I am glad to hear you think devolution is working and democratic.
Welcome to the club.
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#31 Sorry, Stonemason, this seems to have become a "get Stonemason" witch-hunt, so if you'd rather not answer me, that's fine.
Having said that, I don't consider the answers "I'm not going to explain my viewpoint - its obvious", and "I'll pretend not to understand what you mean" to be particularly in keeping with the kind of open and honest discussion that you usually advocate.
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Slightly off topic I know but I find it amazing that no-one has commented (including Betsan) on what the big secret is behind Jack Straw's decision to use his veto on releasing information over the Welsh Devolution settlement, ranking it up there with the Iraq War papers.
It surely wouldn't be pretty reading or kindly worded towards the Welsh I'd say...
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Just as the largest party in Scotland the SNP has done a deal with the Greens to achieve a working majority I think a Labour/Greens coalition would be good for Wales.
The reasons being that the Greens would not only highlight the issues that confront us on the environment and global warming.
"The Greens bring distinctive policies, and a distinctive approach, to the table....democratic reform, curbing the influence of businesses and lobbyists on political decision-making, restoring our lost human rights, cancelling ID cards and the Trident replacement programme, proper controls on the arms trade, a fairer deal for developing countries."
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/caroline-lucas-why-labour-and-the-greens-could-benefit-from-cooperation-1705326.html
That is a coalition that could be formed before the next assembly election, and given the Greens commitment to reform it is something that I would seriously consider voting for. Its a matter of priorities, for me its public services, quality of life, concern for the environment, equality, rights, responsibilities, and reform. These matters need to be addressed before we look at the issue of more powers.
Given the damage we are doing to our environment and planet the future is either Green or Brown!
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42, Good point well made and i'd be interested to learn more about the Green ticket but without the ability or powers to implement the more radical and dynamic policies it isn't going to float as the UK Parliament will control those key competencies.
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37. The SNP in Edinburgh has managed quite well, the largest party but in a minority. It's democratic, the public can see exactly how elected representatives protect their interests, or otherwise.
42. Just as the largest party in Scotland the SNP has done a deal with the Greens to achieve a working majority I think a Labour/Greens coalition would be good for Wales.
Who's right then?
Didn't know there were elected Green representatives in Wales. Or in London if it comes to that
Aren't they the party who joined with Plaid Cymru in Ceredigion to elect Cynog Dafis.
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42.
Taken from the speech of Caroline Lucas Leader of the Green Party, She says, "We need a political system that encourages this kind of co-operation. Asking for Proportional Representation isn't just special pleading – it's about encouraging political diversity and co-operation. That's why, as part of a raft of democratic reforms, alongside the next general election, we should have a referendum on Proportional Representation, which should be binding on any incoming government".
What another referendum for us to pay for. There must a lot of money swilling around somewhere.
If the country can afford it the sooner we can have this commitment the better.
I don't think you will see many Labour people elected then.
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The justice secretary has blocked the release of minutes of a 1997 cabinet committee meeting on devolution.
Jack Straw said he believed disclosure would put the convention of collective cabinet responsibility for decisions "at serious risk of harm".
The UK's information commissioner said he would "carefully consider" Mr Straw's reasons for using his veto.
Why is the Justice Secretary afraid of disclosure in this case? What sort of democracy do we live in? Those of us who have to live under this abominable system deserve to know what exactly was going on in the minds of politicians at that time. Perhaps the Information Commissioner should be petitioned regarding this matter.
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#45 Said...
What another referendum for us to pay for. There must a lot of money swilling around somewhere...I don't think you will see many Labour people elected then.
We do not need another referendum they can be done at he same time, and with some forms of proportional representation people can have a second vote instead of party lists. That way we the people and not political parties can choose who we want in any assembly, together with a system of Recall for AM's who change sides or fail their constituents.
With more and more people realising that the priority for Wales is the environment and the financial gain from sustaining its outstanding natural beauty then we can expect a switch from Plaid to the Greens.
In that respect more people will vote Labour as they can see the efforts that they are making on climate change. Moreover, the benefits of a Labour/Green coalition will add a sense of balance that is missing with Plaid, or in some cases just sense.
It will certainly give a boost to people like myself who promote the natural beauty of Wales on blogs with mainly North American visitors.
You Plaids seem so negative about everything, we all need to be very positive about living in a beautiful part of the world that on a good day is comparable to any foreign holiday destination.
At risk of the usual snide comments it has to be said that nationalistic attitudes are not always helpful, and do not do justice to the vast majority of the Welsh people who provide visitors with a very warm welcome.
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#41 & #46
As a matter of principle I totally agree with these points, and if people knew that their comments would be disclosed then perhaps they would be a bit more careful about what they said and decisions properly considered.
At the risk of the usual snide comments we need to challenge some of our own institutions on the abuse of the Freedom of Information Act to conceal what we have every right right to know.
However, I am pleased to say that recent rulings have set a precedent that will resolve certain issues and take the lid off what really goes on inside our own government Quango's and institutions.
For more info on the Freedom of Information Act try this
http://www.cfoi.org.uk/
It also has a very good blog with some recent entries that I intend to use as evidence myself!
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47.
You Plaids seem so negative about everything, we all need to be very positive about living in a beautiful part of the world that on a good day is comparable to any foreign holiday destination.
If you look back on all my postings I have never been negative about Wales. As far as I am concerned it is the most beautiful country with a wonderful history and culture in the world.
We spend all our holidays or breaks away in Wales. Only once have we been outside Wales on holiday and that was to Shrewsbury. We have never been abroad and we spend all our money within Wales on Welsh or local produce if possible.
If that is being negative or snide then I make no apologies for it.
As for a Labour/Green coalition, Caroline Lucas also said in her speech. “First, by accepting we all have a right to exist. I take no pleasure in seeing the Labour Party, which has achieved great things in the past, coming to its current position. Equally, I reject entirely the view that Greens should join Labour and try and reform it from within. The Greens bring distinctive policies, and a distinctive approach, to the table“.
So it doesn't look as if it is going to happen
I am always sceptical over the Greens and their agenda, though I can associate some of my own views with theirs. It is the aggression they can sometimes use to push that agenda on us all that worries me. I know you are going to come back and say that's what you Nats are doing. Yes, perhaps some can get, how shall we say, excitable. But the Greens and environmentalists in their campaigns can be frightening sometimes. I have seen them at first hand.
I wonder if they were ever given some chance of having or sharing power in Government, how long would it be before they would be forced to compromise their strongly held views, in the name of pragmatism and reality.
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alfsplace1986 wrote at #44
Who's right then?
I was writing about democracy, Neocromwellian was writing about a preference, the pluralist society as opposed to the Plaid "one fit for all"; you could always come in from the nationalist insular cold to the warm azure blue future of DC.
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50
Ah! Thank you for clarifying that for me.
So, a democratic preference then. Just like Plaid and Labour.
Or, just like Plaid,Conservatives and LibDems might have been.
Hmm, I see now. I think.
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50
Thank you for the invitation but Washington DC is not in Wales, and, I haven't got a passport.
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Looks like a Labour coalition with the Greens has hit the spot bringing out the Plaid smear campaigners.
They must be scared stiff at the thought of people voting Green instead of Plaid, but the more you look at it, the more it makes sense. The Greens have done well in coalition in Scotland which means they have a proven track record and could do the same in Wales
#46 Said
"Perhaps the Information Commissioner should be petitioned regarding this matter."
Good luck with this, not sure if a petition to the Info Commissioner is going to do any good as I do not think he does not have a remit to accept petitions.
You could try a Downing Street Petition but I warn you, you can expect the same sort of comments as Stoney and his petition, I have had similar experiences. Somebody is going to sign up in a stupid name and somebody possibly the same person is going to make something of it on blogs like this to try and riducule those who want democracy and reform.
I find it rather sad that I should have to make this point to people like yourself who is attempting to resolve something on a matter of principle that is of benefit to us all, and that is freedom of information irrespective of any other consideration. But some would not understand what this actually means.
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The king is dead,long live the king.
(Rhodri? Rhodri who?)
The ink is hardly dry and allready the pedants on this site are back to arguing about who voted for who and who promised referendums on what.Did nobody hear the chancellors pre budget speech,excluding protected areas it is being interpreted as meaning a 30% cut in public expenditure. As a quarter of the Welsh economy is directly devoted to public administration, education and healthcare,plus areas indirectly dependant on the tax payer my advise to the new First Minister is ignore the ideas of referendums, LCOs and extra powers and PANIC NOW.
Although as an afterthought maybe that is why Plaid have the economic porfolio, maybe the advise to the Deputy First Minister should be DUCK NOW
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54. You've got the rights of current situation,however all the plitical parties and particularly Labour and Splitters are in self denial and cannot confront what's coming down line. I've been thinking why Carwyn has been so good to PC,even though he's gota heavy touch of nationalism about himself,whilst representing a very.very anglicised area of south wales. I think he's concerned about next election and is looking for PC ( Seperatist and Independence Party) for support. Perhaps he intend entering electoral pact with them to shore uphis position. To put a complete non-entity in charge of economic regeneration is a Joke and bit like Caligua who appointed his horse as pro-consul,or somebody like that. The buildings like MC/Green House in Carmarthen so beloved of the BBC wales/S4C nation builders as "iconoic" and representative as resurgent welsh NATION can shut their doors as there's going to be no revenue funding for white elephants. Whilst we are "at it" there should be cull of 75% of BBC wales political staff who just duplicate each other all the time. Get into the BUNKER and arm yourself in next two years before the uprising when benefits start getting cut as is happening in Ireland.
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Re 54
You may not have said which party you support - though I think I can probably guess - but with the present economic crisis, and the prospect (though not the certainty, if some recent opinion polls are anything to go by!) of a right wing, toff dominated, Tory government at Westminster next year, we need those extra powers at the Assembly pretty damn quick. So, Geoff, I cannot agree with you.
Re 53
Neo is funny sometimes! Some five minutes ago he hit on the 'plan' of a coalition between Labour and the Greens; not only that, he now seems to believe that all Plaid members are in a panic because of his great 'plan'!!!
I'm proud to say that I was one who had the pleasure and honour of canvassing for the first Plaid-Green MP at Westminster - the great Cynog Dafis. That, of course, was in the real world.
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re56
FoDafydd disagrees with my comments that our Assembly should be worrying about the ecconomy before referendums on the grounds that we may be facing a Tory government in Westminster.This prospect with the present economic situation is part of the reason why i believe that the Fist Minister should PANIC NOW.
However what i can not see is how greater powers or full law making or full independance will help. Like it or not we are beholden to England for funding untill our Assemby can get its act together enough to use the powers they allready have to show some leadership and actualy improve the economy that has declined in the 10 years of their existance despite having a supportive government in Westminster.
Scotland still has the dream of repatriating oil revenues, what is going to fund the Welsh dream, it seems to me that Irelands current cutting of public sector wages is in danger of looking generous in Wales
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53
Seeing as I am the only one beside you speaking about the Greens so your answer must be to me.
Therefore may I please correct you on something. I am not a Plaid campaigner. I am not a member of any Political Party nor want to be.
My loyalties are to Wales where my heart is also, I vote for the party whom I believe will do the most for Wales.
I am not trying to smear the Green Party I am just passing your arguments back to you. Though none of you are it seems able to answer those arguments in a rational way. Like 'I am running scared of the Green Party' can you please tell me how and why, in a rational way please.
If that is how the people of Wales vote for their Government then so be it. I have had to accept alternative Labour and Conservative Governments why should the Greens be any different to accept. If they work for Wales then all power to their elbow.
I have tried to put what I believe are sensible arguments on my part and I am answered in a way that seems I am the one who started the discussion.
Is that what they call spin.
I notice that the pro Wales contributors are getting less and less. The antis will have the blog to themselves before long. I suppose they will then argue with each other as to who is the biggest anti Welsh person.
I have also noticed as I said that the Toff remark will stop becaus it was backfiring
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53
Seeing as I am the only one beside you speaking about the Greens so your answer must be to me.
Therefore may I please correct you on something. I am not a Plaid campaigner. I am not a member of any Political Party nor want to be.
My loyalties are to Wales where my heart is also, I vote for the party whom I believe will do the most for Wales.
I am not trying to smear the Green Party I am just passing your arguments back to you. Though none of you are it seems able to answer those arguments in a rational way. Like 'I am running scared of the Green Party' can you please tell me how and why, in a rational way please.
If that is how the people of Wales vote for their Government then so be it. I have had to accept alternative Labour and Conservative Governments why should the Greens be any different to accept. If they work for Wales then all power to their elbow.
I have tried to put what I believe are sensible arguments on my part and I am answered in a way that seems I am the one who started the discussion.
Is that what they call spin.
I notice that the pro Wales contributors are getting less and less. The antis will have the blog to themselves before long. I suppose they will then argue with each other as to who is the biggest anti Welsh person.
I have also noticed as I said that the Toff remark will stop because it was backfiring.
It's alright I have already taken cover before the tirade.
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Sorry about 58 pressed the wrong button, must be passed my bedtime.
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Re 57
Why is it that some people always insist that it is always a case of one or the other? I've never understood that.
But when someone's essential philosophy is "Like it or not we are beholden to England" it is actually quite difficult to hold a very meaningful conversation.
Why are there always some who sort of imply that it isn't Westminster's fault that the Brtish economy is in such a hole? And it really is Wales's fault because we are so small, incompetent, useless, lazy, poor, thick...?
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Stoney once again you read the situation to the tee in Post 20 of 'In
Passing' and as you can see by the removal of my posts the moderators duly oblige. While I have never seen this forum as an effective means
to influence it has been a convenient tool to communicate with like minded people and I hope to welcome 'True Wales' to my 'neck of the woods'over the next couple of months.
I can assure you the fight will continue locally in the so called welsh
speaking heartlands where there is no censorship so there is nothing left to say other than a 'Merry Xmas to all 'True Walians' and especially to my old fiend Maapex .
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62
Sorry to be pedantic but there is no X in Christmas.
There is no X in Christ where the name derives from.
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FoDafydd communicates from the depths of Plaid rhetoric where he writes .....
"... we are so small, incompetent, useless, lazy, poor, thick...
You might speak for you and yours, others, the people I know are ...
... just great people, not wealthy but honest, hard working not lazy, clever not incompetent.
... the half full glass brigade.
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I wrote friend on fiend.
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64
Stonemason
Still the twisting (spin) of what others are saying. You and others on this blog have complained when it has been done to yourselves.
61. Why are there always some who sort of imply that it isn't Westminster's fault that the Brtish economy is in such a hole? And it really is Wales's fault because we are so small, incompetent, useless, lazy, poor, thick...?
So that is a bit disingenuous there Stonemason, he was commenting on what others are implying.
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Imply ...
... tricky one that ...
... yet who implied it, other than FoDafydd.
FoDafydd was spreading "the negative", as is his want ... agent provocateur we think.
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65
thegnatswatter
Freuden slip perhapes?
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67
Negative/positive, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.
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Like many others on this blog I am a pro Wales campaigner that is try to bring about more open and transparent government to open up institutions to public scrutiny.
I do not just talk about it but I actually do it, so if I sound cynical its because of the response you get when you complain about anything. If I repeat myself its because there is no other way of bringing maladminstration to light.
There are others on this blog who are also campaigning under the Freedom of Information Act who I whole heartedly support irrespective of their political opinions or their reasons for wanting the information.
However, there are those who do not want open government, under this Llafur/Plaid coalition a serious backlog of complaints to the Information Commissioner has built up to the point whereby our basic freedoms are in jeopardy. As people have pointed out the same applies in Westminster in which case two wrongs do not make a right.
As I have attempted to point out that the three Plaid MP's have campaigned against the ban on hunting with hounds but very little and in one case absolutely nothing towards open government. Again no better than anyone else.
I am told that 40,000 marched in protest about the hunting ban, so how many are going to march about wanting cabinet minutes over devolution? Moreover, you can expect to be undermined by your own side to prevent it from happening. Why? Because Plaid do not want the little people to know hence all the fuss with Huw Lewis and Ieuan Wyn Jones over consultants reports on roads.
The future is being decided in Copenhagen, nothing to do with nation building but the world we live in, and while the immediate future may well be blue, the younger generation who are more concerned with Green issues will hopefully do a bit of planet building.
Having said that Laughing Boy and the Frank Spencer impersonator will I am sure do there best to discredit anybody with a genuine desire to bring about positive change for all the people of Wales. Like Stoney said agent provocateur we think.
Like thegnatswatter said its nice to communicate with like minded people and a Merry Xmas to those who want open government irrespective of what political party they support.
PS
The "X" in Xmas is from the Greek letter Chi, which is the first letter of Χριστός, Christ in Greek
Today, with knowledge of classical languages being less widespread than formerly, some erroneously believe that the term Xmas is part of an effort to "take Christ out of Christmas" or to literally "cross out Christ"; From the Wikipedia
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70
I c it s lazins thats in modern young peoples language called texting,lol
Somebody on here said not so long ago, when you resort to name calling you have lost any credible argument or even credibility.
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Now for an important issue
The Scottish Government has today (8 December) announced that it plans to consult on whether the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act should be extended to the following bodies:
* Contractors who build and maintain hospitals
* Contractors who build and maintain schools
* Contractors who run privately managed prisons and provide prisoner escort and court custody services
* Contractors who operate and maintain trunk roads under private finance contracts
* The Glasgow Housing Association
* The Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland; and
* Bodies used by local authorities to provide leisure, culture and sport services.
A report containing the Scottish Government's response to the earlier discussion paper on the subject has also been published. More info here
http://foia.blogspot.com/2009/12/scottish-government-announces.html
Clearly we all need to do what we can to persuade the cabinet to introduce this for Wales with an LCO. We should lobby our MP's to do the same in Westminster.
#71 I did not refer to anyone by name on this blog
But if the cap fits, wear it!
Like I said anyone wanting to do their best for Wales in a positive way is going to be a target and on the receiving end of the most sanctimonious, self righteous drivel.
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Without wanting to rehash the arguments over PR and the list members, my preference is for STV where you do vote for the candidate and not the party, you rank them in order of preference, to coin a phrase its as easy as 1, 2, 3.... I regard the closed list system as the least good form of PR, that said its far preferable to First Past The Post, where the person with the largest vote is elected regardless to whether that represents a majority viewpoint, hence the situation of 4 way marginals where a few hundred votes either way will change the representative who in anycase is not supported by just under 75% of the people voting.
Green members of the National Assembly would be welcome, and as has been noted we have had a Green MP in Wales, in the form of a joint Plaid/Green candidate. It should be noted that the Green Party in Scotland is in favour of independence for Scotland, I am not sure what the position of the Green Party is in Wales.
I am not sure why Stonemason seems obsessed with the idea that Plaid is non pluralist, its an extremely pluralist party, committed to a diverse Wales - yet he persists in painting Plaid as some form of stalanist organisation, its as ridiculous as trying to assert that the conservative party is fascist, a historical nonsense. I can only surmise that he does it because if he keeps stating it people may eventually believe it.
Yes Wales is over dependent on the public sector, that is a historical fact, yet years of mismanagement from Westminster can not be overcome in a measly 10 years, it will take decades to put Wales back on the path - give us the tools and we will do the job.
As for scrutiny - well standard pattern in the National Assembly includes full debates in the Chamber, review by a legislative competence committee, public consultation, review by a specific committee, reviews by a committee and evidence sessions from the public and interested bodies, debates on amendments etc... In many ways the scrutiny given in the National Assembly is better than that at Westminster as there is more scope for gathering evidence and views from the public.
I would point out that Westminster does not scrutinise legislation under the LCO process - something that people here can't differentiate between the process of gaining legislative powers and the exercise of those powers.
I would love to see the suppressed cabinet records - I suspect it shows how much the Welsh proposals were opposed by sections of the Labour ministerial team and how much Ron had to fight to get the most that he could out of a reluctant Labour Party in England. But that is just speculation.
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Plaid is non pluralist, read the Plaid constitution, it reads .....
To ensure economic prosperity ..... based on decentralist socialism.
... and LDT at #74 writes "its an extremely pluralist party", I find no options in the Plaid constitution for anything other than the single path to communism.
When he writes further on "As for scrutiny", myopic is an understatement, LDT, you are scrutinising yourself, the committees are made from the legislation creators, you do not have Lord Davies of Oldham who said of the Welsh language LCO ……
A balance in going forward between the interests of those whose first language is Welsh, and who wish to conduct their daily lives in that language, and the large majority of people in Wales who do not speak Welsh. That figure, as all Members of this Committee will know, is 80 per cent ..... a significant number whose interests also need to be considered. [... source Hansard.]
... more at blog entry 12 Dec 2009
It is unfortunate that the suppressed cabinet records will not be made public, we have similar issues in Wales with IWJ and his road building advice ........
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For some reason my comment taken from the same Wikepedia article as
70. Neocromwellian has been referred to the Moderators.
Why was his allowed and mine not.
May I please be allowed to put it on this way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xmas
Under the heading. Style guides and etiquette
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#74 Lyn David Thomas Said.....
I would love to see the suppressed cabinet records
- I suspect it shows how much the Welsh proposals were opposed by sections of the Labour ministerial team and how much Ron had to fight to get the most that he could out of a reluctant Labour Party in England. But that is just speculation.
For once I totally agree with you on the first part, with regard to the second part that is a matter of debate which we cannot have until we know what really happened.
From experience you are also right on the point that the failure to supply you with the information means you can only speculate.
So that is what you do and in return you get the pro establishment brigade write the most vitriolic abuse to denigrate you and the point you are trying to make.
Worse still is they withhold the information and then threaten you with libel for speculating on their motives and the content of the information that is being withheld.
You cannot divorce freedom of information from freedom of speech, so not only do we need reform to the Information Laws we also need reform to the Libel Laws to open up our governments and institutions to closer public scrutiny. There is a campaign and a petition that can be signed here
http://www.libelreform.org/
Here is a quote from the site
If we don't act we're at risk of becoming a global pariah. There are US States who view English libel law as so damaging to free speech they have passed laws to effectively block the decisions of English judges.
For those of us who have been on the receiving end of this sort of treatment to conceal what goes on inside our institutions, reform cannot come soon enough.
We cannot pick and choose what information should be released as freedom of information applies to all information irrespective of what you are going to use it for. So if you want to organise some kind of petition or website on the issue of releasing cabinet records on devolution I will back you.
We should have more transparent government irrespective of what sort of government you want for Wales. The politicians are not going to give it to us so its something we must demand ourselves.
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More on Devolution and Freedom of Information
Government uses the veto again
The government has issued a second veto, preventing the disclosure of information under the FOI Act. This follows the veto in February 2009 of cabinet minutes relating to the war in Iraq.
The present case involves a request to see the minutes of the 1997 meetings of the cabinet subcommittee on devolution in Scotland, Wales and the English regions. The committee had been chaired by Lord Irvine, the then Lord Chancellor.
The government withheld the information under the FOI Act exemptions for policy formulation and ministerial communications (section 35(1)(a) and (b)). In June 2009 the Information Commissioner ruled that these should be disclosed. He concluded that the issue was no longer ‘live’ as, by the time of the request in 2005, the policy questions had been settled and devolution had long been introduced in Scotland and Wales. He found that only 1 member of the cabinet committee concerned was still in government. The minutes did not attribute views to any specific minister or offer much insight into the debate or the contributions of individual ministers.
The Information Commissioner concluded
The Commissioner finds that, on balance, the public interest in maintaining the exemption does not outweigh the public interest in disclosure of the information.
The Iraq veto overruled a decision of the Information Tribunal - this one deals with a decision of the Commissioner. Remarkably, the government had appealed to the Tribunal in this case too: the Tribunal hearing was due to start at the end of January 2010. It is not clear why ministers should change course at such a late stage. If the government had intended to use the veto it could have done so when the Commissioner’s decision was issued, nearly six months ago.
One possibility may be that the government wanted to avoid a Tribunal decision appearing in spring 2010 forcing ministers to disclose or veto the release of the devolution papers just before or during a general election campaign. The actual timing of the veto - announced on the day the House of Commons published a highly contentious batch of MPs’ expenses - is likely to have reduced press coverage of the issue.
http://foia.blogspot.com/
Dare I make the point that stitched up Referendums and Elections cut both ways!
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Re: 75, Stonemason
"Plaid is non pluralist, read the Plaid constitution, it reads .....
To ensure economic prosperity ..... based on decentralist socialism."
Response:
I presume Stonemason comes to the conclusion that Plaid in 'non pluralist' because of the presence of the word 'socialism' in its constitution. I can find no other word in his quote which could possibly justify his conclusion, but please forgive me if I'm mistaken.
I know comparisons can be invidious, but in politics they are pretty well inescapable, so here's a quote from another party's constitution:
From Labour party Constitution, Clause 4
"The Labour Party is a democratic socialist party."
Because of the presence of the word 'socialist' in the Labour party's constitution, would I be correct in presuming that Stonemason also believes the Labour party is "non pluralist"?
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You presume wrong #79
In Plaids constitution ....
... its Aims
....... shall be:
1. To promote the constitutional advancement of Wales with a view to attaining Full National Status for Wales within the European Union.
2. To ensure economic prosperity, social justice and the health of the natural environment, based on decentralist socialism.
3. To build a national community based on equal citizenship, respect for different traditions and cultures and the equal worth of all individuals, whatever their race, nationality, gender, colour, creed, sexuality, age, ability or social background.
4. To create a bilingual society by promoting the revival of the Welsh language.
5. To promote Wales’s contribution to the global community and to attain membership of the United Nations.
No mention of democracy, no mention of alternative ...
... no plural society.
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Re 80
Stonemason is not an unintelligent man, but I, like someone one else who recently asked, don't understand why he insists on spouting nonsense against Plaid and its 'plans' for a despotic, Stalinist Wales!
Apart from the usual No to Wales campaigners who'll believe anything that is an insult to our country, nobody else will take the blind bit of notice of such rubbish. Yet he continues with his so-called campaign. Still, if he feels better for doing it...it is Christmas...almost.
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Stonemason, at Westminster is in exactly the same boat as National Assembly then, both originate and go through scrutiny procedures when considering legislation, I take it then that you don't think that Westminster goes through the process of scrutiny either?
Where is there anything that says that decentralised socialism is either communism (which was characterised by extreme centralisation) or un democratic. From the aims of Plaid you can see that it is committed to promoting a diverse Wales. Can you point out the bits of the Tory constitution that state that the party backs state ownership of the means of production and distribution as an alternative option to the casino capitalism you seem to support? If it doesn't have that can we assume the party is non-pluralist?
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82
FoDafydd
Seems like somebody didn't like what we had to say. It was more or less the same thing. censorship now shame we are in the same category as mapexx
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What is the point of going on, we can be abused but others it seems can not. Bye
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Censorship by moderators or readers, the contributors never discover.
... decentralised socialism
Governance by the few ....
A good society cannot be created unless a determining number of the thoughtful and concerned men and women in each country exercise influence, and see that power is properly utilized. ...
The words by Ralph Borsodi on decentralised socialism .....
No democracy there, an elite governance by a few.
An example of Conservative pluralism would be its recognition that the NHS fits better as a Nationwide government backed public service, where certain aspects or services are best supplied by specialist organisations.
Your use of the expression "casino capitalism" shows a complete lack of understanding of economics, to use tabloid headlines as a general term to describe the economic model in use by the vast majority of countries is disingenuous at best, I recommend the history of money by channel 4 as an educational tool in your quest for knowledge.
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#87 Stoney..
People see the obscene amounts of money earned by what in effect is gambling and it triggers some kind of moral objection even though we have lived off those earnings and used it to improve our public services. Therefore, we should be careful about taking any moral high ground on this issue, especially as groups such Tomorrows Wales which have strong connections to the church have accepted lottery money in other words the proceeds of gambling.
However, it is an issue that needs to be reconciled together with the matter of nondoms in all political parties who sit in the House of Lords and who are as they say non-domiciled for tax purposes.
Given that we now know the future is one of austere cuts, we should be told by the new cabinet if they are planning to continue with the proposed massive celebrations at public expense of the Plaid/Llafur end of any political principle celebrations?
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"The words by Ralph Borsodi on decentralised socialism "
Can I assure you again Stoney that Borsodi's philosophy isn't Plaid's.
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Re 87
What has Borsodi got to do with anything?!
But since you quote him - and you do seem to be obsessed with quoting other people's ideas - let's have a look shall we?
"...a determining number of the thoughtful and concerned men and women in each country exercise influence"
Well, that would sum up the patrician, old-Etonian toffery that makes up your beloved Tory shadow cabinet rather well. So we can identify you as a Bordonian from now on then, Stonemason?
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Re 90
...a Borsodian even!!
It seems that you've all had your wish with Alf apparently leaving us.
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Dewi, I don't doubt your words or sincerity on this matter .....
.... though it is for Plaid to make a public statement, to provide a definitive description of "Decentralised Socialism", was it rhywun-arall who wrote it can mean anything to anyone, it was written not as a philosophy but a mechanism to bind people from differing political origins to the Nationalist cause, if this is correct Plaid is deceiving the voting public.
A definitive statement, your Adam Price might be just the right person for the job, is needed.
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Further to my #92 Dewi ....
.... and how would "Decentralised Socialism" fit with the plural society we live in today.
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Re: *93 Stonemason
".... and how would "Decentralised Socialism" fit with the plural society we live in today."
Stonemason, what is it in the phrase 'Decentralised Socialism' that makes Plaid, uniquely amongst the major political parties in Wales, 'non pluralist'?
If it's the word 'socialism' then why don't you also describe the Labour party as 'non pluralist', a point I make in *79.
And if it's 'Decentralised', then 'non pluralist' is a term that could alo be applied to the Conservative party - here's a quote from a speech by Davide Cameron made in February this year:
"Decentralising power is one of the big changes a Conservative Government will make."
Therefore I put it to you again - what is it in the phrase 'Decentralised Socialism' that makes Plaid, uniquely amongst the major political parties in Wales, 'non pluralist'?
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Plaid is unique in assigning a single socio-economic plan by which it would govern, the operative word is "single", by announcing "Decentralised Socialism" as its method it aligns itself with other examples of non-pluralist politics, by having the "one" it excludes the "others".
You only have to read the vitriol of Adam Price to realise how close to a communist (or similar) future we are in Wales.
Petition Plaid to come in from the cold and describe its Decentralised Socialism for the electorate, it's an honest approach to politics.
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Re 95
No matter how often you repeat this nonsense, Stonemason, it still makes no sense, and sort of implies that you're losing grip on reality.
But you really aren't making any point that deserves a response. So I take it that you must be worried about something...
Oh... the Tories are slipping badly in the polls. The toffs aren't there yet, then!
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It is always nonsense to Fo when the Union writes of an unpleasant fact ....
.... in this case the "Decentralised Socialism" of Plaid, a system that has no underlying philosophy yet is offered as an alternative to the plural society we have.
As I wrote at #95, Plaid should be honest and describe its flagship socio-economic plan so that the electorate can judge for themselves, anything else is an ..... untruth, is unworthy of the electorate.
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RE *97
Stonemason - as a Conservative could you please describe your party's socio-economic plan.
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Re 97
Stonemason bach,
Your lack of logic and consistency is always good for a laugh. You have recently been pontificating about how Plaid's ideology is 'Stalinist', now it's something which: "has no underlying philosophy". Oh dear. As slippery as a downward curve in an opinion poll, it would seem.
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Re 98
I see that Stonemason hasn't answered your question or my point - once again!!
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Helping out friends reduces a persons time Fo, naturally seemingly irrelevant questions or statements are put into the "not very interesting" basket as was yours and Joneses, but to be polite and answer your question concerning the Conservative party's socio-economic plan it would be necessary to research the Whig party, founded in 1678, and the Conservative and Unionist Party to the present date to provide a definitive answer.
You and yours are quite capable of doing your own research, the difference between Plaid and the Conservative Party is a question of visibility, Plaids plans are unquestionably invisible, the Unionists of all flavours are available for all to scrutinise, you are able to research the Union, an option not available with the sunderers.
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Re 101
So, in reality, another refusal to answer a question. How convenient. How predictable.
What you do say in comparing parties, however, makes no sense whatsoever!
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So in reality Fo, I like many others are not inclined to waste our time on responding to your endless questions when with your computer the answers are at your finger tips, unless of course you are researching Plaid politics ....
.... reading Simon Blackthorn, The Big Questions, "Is there no such thing as society?" It seems Baroness Thatcher was probably correct. Could this be the reason that Plaid has no written socio-economic policy, by not committing to paper this parody of a political party is able to be anything to anyone, it represents something of nothing to anyone with an empty space between their ears.
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Re 103
It isn't just that you constantly chicken out of answering questions - strange for an alleged ex-soldier, as I've said before - it's also your inability to respond when your inconsistency and lack of logic is highlighted. Still, I suppose we can't choose our adversaries!
I repeat, your 101 makes no sense.
The first Cabinet meeting has been cancelled of course, because of the death of Carwyn Jones's mother.
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Stonemason - your reaction smacks of 'double standards'. You're happy enough to come here & demand someone explain Plaid policy.
Yet when a request is put in to you to explain Conservative policy your response is to go & find out for themselves.
Damn poor response - not 'officer' material obviously..
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