Merry Christmas
From Cabinet minutes Oct 5
Item 1: Minutes of the previous meeting and matters arising
1.1 Cabinet approved the minutes of the previous meeting.
Matters arising - Christmas Cards
1.2 The First Minister indicated that, although he was retiring in December, he believed it would be appropriate to send Christmas cards just before stepping down.
And thus do great empires fade away.
Mind you he'll be more than happy to read that 91% of AMs questioned by Ipsos Mori disagreed that free bus travel for pensioners in Wales should be restricted for pensioners with below average incomes. His should be quite safe ... for now.
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
© MMX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~51~RS~)
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Great Empires fade away ? Betsan your beginning to worry me. Have you
got a hidden agenda?
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#1 thegnatswatter
I think we can safely say you have been crossed of the list!
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I see that the YouGov poll suggests a majority for extended powers across the board, and 50%+ in favour for every group except the 55+ age group, and North Wales.
I'm sorry to say I don't know enough about your country to know. Is there a correlation between these groups? ie does North Wales have a disproportionate percentage of older people?
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2.When he lost to Alun Michael his campaign manager accused me of'biased
clapping' in a hustings at Carmarthen so I guess I never would be on his
mailing list.
3.Interesting? This is the age group (55+) you really want on your side they have lived through the hard times and feel a duty to use their vote.Out of all the age groups they have the most consistant voting pattern as for North Wales I think they must be the majority who are being constantly denigrated by the nationalist minority.
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The 55+ have been lucky not to attend the MADRASAS now put in place by King Rhodri and NATS and subjected to "brainwashing" as far as welsh history is concerned. I would have thought that North wales would have been split between the East and West as was clearly shown in 1997 referendum. The reality is that North East Wales is almost completely tied into the Mersyside/Manchester/Cheshire economies and has little contact with Cardiff area. When I used to visit NW very regularly all the BBC channels were tuned to english programmes,rather than PC Television/Radio. The North West is very remote and as with all isolated areas looks inward and hopes to keep it like that with the wealth thrown at it by its "mates" in PC who are now in government.
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It has now become painfully obvious that the entire 60 jobsworth sheep of the assembly (apart from a couple of cowardly, secretive, Conservatives)want FULL powers for the assembly and eventual stand alone 'independence' for Wales.
Helped by a Welsh media (both press and TV) which has entirely forgotten the meaning of the word 'impartial' Wales is drifting headlong into the unknown. Maybe if the Welsh language had not been viewed as an essential tool in the Plaid created multi-faceted "Welshification" of our birthplace, the nationalist bigots might have got away with it.
As things stand though, I foresee huge problems ahead for Wales. The arrogance of the nationalists will eventually prove too much for the ordinary non Welsh speakers.If as promised/threatened by internet nationalists, only Welsh speakers will be able to obtain worthwhile jobs here, there will eventually be an explosion of discontent.
Any attempt on my part to further describe the outcome will surely lead to opportunist nationalists comparing my words to someone else who prophesied a certain 'dampness' in our streets.
The rush to full devolution and then independence will not pass peacefully. Even if 'independence' arrives, it will not be a permanent, or even long lasting state of affairs.The mass of the Welsh people will realise their error, and provided the Welsh nationalists have not abolished democracy by then, will vote the whole rotten bunch back to the obscurity from whence they came.
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Re 6
Noa has confessed many times that his conributions to this blog are little more than him having a laugh, and a deliberate, frivolous, meaningless provocation. Here's the proof of that.
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#6 Good point about drifting towards the unknown which is why we need to address these issues to reassure people about the future and in that respect it has to be Europe. Interestingly England is having to accept further loss of the sovereign state while Wales is trying to build it. However it is not as simple as it seems as the attitude of the No vote hardens their position within an independent Wales would be a serious cause for EU concern.
I think any granting of full powers should start to include a peaceful transition towards partition and that such a move would be in keeping with EU policy towards what would then be a minority group. Much has been made of the comparison with Baltic states such as Estonia and Latvia however, this puts the comparison in a different light.
Probably the most significant minority to which this applies are the Russians of the Baltic, who interestingly show up in opinion polls as notably more enthusiastic about 'returning to Europe' than their Latvian and Estonian fellow-countrymen. While satisfactory progress towards ending the statelessness of the Baltic Russian minorities is a pre-condition of Estonian and Latvian membership of the EU, the acquisition of formal citizenship will not put an end to the problem of their full integration. Even if and when they have acquired Estonian or Latvian citizenship, a large proportion of Russians is likely to seek to leave the rather inhospitable, and economically difficult, environment in which they find themselves. Their destination will not be Russia, but Germany, France and other richer states and more open societies in the EU.
But many Baltic Russians have in the meanwhile opted for Russian citizenship: Estonia today has the largest colony of Russian citizens living outside Russia - some 100,000 people. In accepting Estonia and Latvia as future members, the EU will also have to shoulder the burden of this issue in its relations with Russia, which will continue to take an active interest in its citizens abroad and could well choose to extend its purview to the fate of ethnic Russians and Russian-speakers in general, even when EU citizens. Once again, we are driven to the conclusion that an effective external policy on minority issues will require the EU and its member-states to search for more coherence between the internal and external dimensions of policy.
http://www.eui.eu/RSCAS/WP-Texts/98_05p.htm
It would appear that a partitioned Wales with certain areas remaining part of the UK under Westminster control would be in keeping with EU policy and conditional on Wales obtaining membership and should not be allowed to opt out of the Charter on Human Right to make a deal as the Czechs did with the Lisbon Treaty.
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A partitioned Wales is not on anyone's agenda, why promote it? And more importantly what has it to do with the granting of legislative powers as set out in the Government of Wales Act 2006? This is just scare tactics and does nothing to address the issues.
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#9 Said...
"A partitioned Wales is not on anyone's agenda, why promote it?"
A partitioned Wales is on my agenda and I suggest others are also considering their position and is something that will grow as a logical conclusion. This is why it should be promoted in order to reassure people with regard to scare tactics about an independent Wales.
Partitioned areas should be identified so we can plan for the future, in which case we should have nothing to fear about obvious moves towards an independent Wales as minority groups should be given the option of staying within the UK. The will also reassure business and avoid any damage to inward investment.
Clearly your comments give a taste of the intolerance that would be shown to non-conformist groups if there ever was an independent Wales, any voice of dissent would be stifled.
But then that is why I am voting No because that is happening already.
Not a scare tactic either but a statement of fact.
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Neocro - what would you call the partitioned bit - "Ex-Wales"?
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The option of Partition should be included in Opinion Polls.
#11
If part of Wales wanted to remain within the UK under Westminster rule then it would be for the people to decide what to call it.
However, something like Free Wales could take on regional status but not with its own assembly. Like the people of North East England decided, it is a waste of time and money and only puts another layer of bureaucracy in the way of the effective delivery of essential services.
In turn the independent part of what is now called Wales could be called whatever its people decided. Not my concern, I can only wish them well and if Europe wants to pay for it then that is a matter for them. That the English taxpayer would now longer be liable will I am sure be met with delight.
I fail to see what you would want to call it as being the issue, it the freedom to choose that really matters, and that is what we need to campaign for.
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I think it was penddu who said "all or nothing" .............
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Given that there are pro devolution people in every part of Wales and anti devolution people this is a non starter. Its also grossly irresponsible of people here to promote it, no serious person wants this. A diversionary tactic.
So suggest we ignore it and just debate the merits of what is on offer, which is not independence, which is not full law making powers, which is not a Scottish style parliament, just a limited set of primary legislative powers as set out in the GOVA 2006.
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I can not fathom out why it is thought or portrayed by all these anti anything Welsh that Plaid Cymru has so much power in Wales, that it is controlling everything. From the BBC, the media in general, the Welsh Government, the Welsh language.
The BBC is controlled from London and from the recent past to the present we know where their loyalties lie. you only have to read the London BBC Political Editors Blog or the episode regarding the weapons of mass destruction and deployment lies to know that.
The press media is a joke, controlled by multinational Capitalists who have their own agenda and I don't think Wales even registers on a full stop at the end of a sentence with them.
Regarding the Government in Wales and the Welsh language, they are only pursuing what has already been passed in law and is their legal duty.
Then there are the ‘Nats’ who it is stated are in charge of everything. Well come on Wales has been controlled for over a hundred years by Labour Councils. A Labour controlled or majority Government in Cardiff Bay for ten years. Secretaries of State for Wales for decades, Labour or Conservative Governments in London for ever.
Even the Welsh institutions are run by Labour or Conservative place men. Charities and Social Organisations are in hock to the Government in London because of the 'Cabinet Office of the Third Sector'.
To give Plaid Cymru the credit or blame for everything that is happening in Wales is I believe rather economical with the truth and disingenuous.
Nothing that ever will, or has happened in Wales, will be because of whether the people want it or not. But because of political expediency and the saving of Governments of what ever persuasion, who want to keep or gain power.
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Lyn_Thomas writes Its also grossly irresponsible of people to contemplate the eventual outcome of devolved government linked to separatist politics, it's irresponsible because some see devolution as the thin edge of the independence wedge.
Lyn_Thomas of course has a need to suppress Unionists observations, lets start with two observations .....
..... whilst Plaid is a political actor in Welsh politics, independence has to be uppermost in everyone's mind.
..... as the independence movement represents a tiny minority of the electorate it would seem a sensible option to offer partition as a solution that would take away the constant threat of separation from the vast majority of people.
Only after the threat of separation has been removed from Welsh politics can Wales move on to greatness ........
On a slightly different tack, I'm sure everybody would join me in congratulating the 4 home rugby teams on a hard won weekend, 3 wins and 1 lost is a great achievement .......
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#14 Your Twisted Logic
Anti devolution people live in all ares of Wales therefore devolution
and more powers is a non starter!
You seem to be saying that places like Kosovo should not exist?
Moreover, who are you to decide what people can or cannot debate on this blog?
Are you
a. Betsan under another name?
b. A moderator?
c. Lord God Almighty?
Clearly Partition has hit a raw nerve, which needs to be considered with regard to more powers without waiting for independence.
It is the responsible and honest thing to do, the fact it shows up others for being dishonest is the only reason for not wanting any debate on the issue.
You are only trying to create a diversion from your real intentions which from your comments have nothing to do with democracy and demonstrate an intolerance to other peoples heritage and culture.
You really must start to show some respect for what at present is a significant minority opposed to devolution and more powers.
To do anything else is highly irresponsible, inflammatory, and divisive.
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#17 I Should add
If anyone wants to discuss Welsh independence then as far as I am concerned please go ahead. It is not for me or Lynn Thomas to tell people what they can or cannot debate on this blog.
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Absolutely bonkers! But, because it's just the usual handful from the No To Wales campaign, absolutely hilarious!
By the way, did you join in with every single member of our national team and about 50,000 others yesterday Stoney to belt out our national anthem, or were you appalled by another Plaid led conspiracy to fool the sadly misguided, and the-ever-so-much-more-gullible-and-deluded-than-you Welsh nation?
Great win though!
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17
Neocromwellian
Perhaps you can tell us why you think it is worth talking about something that is never going to happen, as much as I would dearly like it to. I.e. independence, and what can only be regarded as the most ridiculous suggestion I have ever heard, partition. Do you think Cornwall should be partitioned as well, because they are fighting for autonomy.
14 is right, all that is on offer is limited powers, discussing anything else is just pie in the sky and mischief making.
To have independence and ’autonomy’ would need the winning of a referendum or an election with a party promising that. I just don’t think that is ever going to happen. Though someone once said “Never say never”.
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Welsh Independence Bring It On!
Having lived in Cornwall for a long time I have every sympathy for Cornish autonomy as Westminster is so remote politicians are literally out of touch. There are other issues that reinforce this point, Cornwall is virtually an island separated by the river Tamar, it also carried on trading with the remnants of the Roman Empire long after the Legions left England. Its culture and traditions are totally different from those of England who understandable they see as a seperate country.
Given the choice I would rather live in an independent partitioned Wales than under 60 self serving political wannabees delivering third rate third world public services.
So as far as a referendum on an independent Wales is concerned bring it on, when people are confronted with an honest choice they back down and start making pathetic excuses. They act like children without daddy telling them what to do.
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It seems that Labours fortunes are on the up. Will we need Plaid after a
new leader is chosen? Who signed the One Wales Agreement? Are we legally
bound after Rhodri?
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The Nationalist goombah's would like to believe that their 5% could drive the majority into a new world as subjects of the [Soviet] Socialist Republic of Wales, all this without a peep, nonsense of course. The only feasible option that the separatist have, is a portion of the country, but this doesn't give them enough, and of course there would only be the 5% having the separatist quotient.
The One Wales Agreement has a very limited shelf life, the Labour politicians realise that getting into bed with the Nationalists was akin to gaining a transmittable disease called voter disillusionment, politics is about voters, the labour politicians are mending their ways, I've said it before, this Conservative will vote Labour to prevent the separatist rabble gaining power.
The sustainable option is for the supporters of Plaid to return to politics of concensus, the politics that builds a better country through cooperative aspirations and effort, Plaid is a spent force, they were found out, they care for themselves.
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21
Neocromwellian
I am sorry but I am a little bit confused
You are for independence, then you seem to be not for it.
You have every sympathy for Cornwall having it, but seem to be against Wales having it. Surely Politicians in Westminster are equally out of touch with Wales.
The river Tamar virtually separates Cornwall and England.
Offas’ Dyke does the same for Wales even though both can be crossed by roads and railway.
It's culture and traditions are totally different from those in England.
Wales has it's own culture and traditions and I am not referring to the peripatetic eisteddfod. which we know is an artificial entity, but the tradition of Eisteddfodau themselves and its language just like Kernewek or Kernowek in Kernow.
So your argument relates equaly to Wales as well as Kernow.
22
Thegnatswatter
I think you will find that it was not signed just by Rhodri. I think the wales and Westminster Government might have had a little input. It was done jointly as opposed to the act of Union which was imposed on us.
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#24 I am all for Welsh Independence.
But I am not for the subjugation of a significant minority whose claim to parts of what is now called Wales is just as strong. For instance Pembrokeshire was an English stronghold at the time of Owain Glyndwr, it would need the right to break away from Wales with a corridor to the border just as I suport the Cornish breaking away from England.
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25.
Neocromwellian
Thank you for the clarification
Is that the Pembrokeshire north of the 'Landsker line' or below
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#26 I had not made any distinction with the term Landsker which is Anglo Saxon as I did not wish to offend anybody, nor did I intend to include part of the Gower which is included below the 'Lansker Line' but I am happy to do so. Given that many Welsh do not support more powers or independence we would need to take into account the right of people to choose for economic or political reasons and not just on culture or language.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/7354446.stm
RE 25 Neo wrote,
For instance Pembrokeshire was an English stronghold at the time of Owain Glyndwr.
Please spare a thought for English folk trapped behind Llafur lines in in once English Monmouthshire.
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I wish to censor no one, but it absurd to discuss a division of Wales when no one supports or wants that. If more want that then lets discuss that somewhere appropriate, but here isn't the right place or time, this is a discussion on a minor upgrade to the powers of the National Assembly. Independence is not on the agenda.
And Stonemason your credibility takes an even sharper dive if you continue to suggest that Plaid want a soviet style state in Wales.
More to the point when are you going to admit that you want to abolish the NHS and public funded education?
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#28 Jack I did but gave Pembrokeshire as an example as it would need a corridoor to the border.
Nonetheless, sorry about the omission and of course the same applies to Monmouthshire and other areas that would wish to stay part of the UK.
However, I am not going to propose partition along language or cultural lines, as many of us of different origins and languages live side by side quite happily.
Many Welsh speakers are clearly unhappy with full powers and independence, they must have the option of staying in the UK while respecting their heritage, language and culture.
But it has been said on this blog that there are only two honest options independence or nothing as anything in between is never going to work. Therefore, independence with partition is in my view the only option. We need to address this isssue as frankly it is far better than this Plaid/Llafur self serving coalition getting more powers.
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30
Neocromwellian
It works in the Isle of Mann.
It works in other countries it is called federalism.
Why not the same thing here.
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Re 30
Neo,
Neo, Neo bach! This is a ridiculous discussion. Nevertheless, let me amke one point - just for fun. You say:
"Nonetheless, sorry about the omission and of course the same applies to Monmouthshire and other areas that would wish to stay part of the UK. "
If Wales ever did decide it wanted independence, I think we can safely assume that Scotland will have long gone. It follows, therefore, that there will not be an United Kingdom to cling on to.
Re 28
Jack,
Do you mean the 'English' county with, just as a small sample, these villages??!! :
Llandogo
Llanellen
Llanelly
Llanfair Kilgeddin
Llanfihangel Tor-y-Mynydd
Llanfoist
Llangattock Lingoed
Llangattock-Vibon-Avel
Llangovan
Llangoven
Llangua
Llangwm
Llangybi
Llanhennock
Llanishen
Llanllowell
Llanover
Llansoy
Llanthony
Llantilio Crossenny
Llantilio Pertholey
Llantrisant
Llanvair Discoed
Llanvapley
Llanvetherine
Llanvihangel Crucorney
Llanvihangel Gobion
Llanvihangel-Ystern-Llewern
Llanwenarth
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Also...Sudbrook, Blackrock, Goldcliff, Chepstow, Nash, Langston, Caldicot, Grosmont, Peterstone, alway, Somerton, Bishpool, Redwick, Newport, Ringland, Ringwood, Wentwood, Beechwood, Barnard town, Christchurch, Malpas, Victoria, Ridgeway. Eveswell, Baneswell....Et cetera...In the whole of Monmouthshire, how many pubs and hotels have got English names? How many have got proper Rhodri Morgan type, proper Welsh names?
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3,
Hi old nat, i've read your posts on Blether, Uk opinion polls and others.
i must admit i've often thought of directing you to this blog but your reasonable tone (along with most unionist adversaries on Blether) put me off due to the ridiculous (bordering on paranoic) assertions from our 'unionist' friends on here.
JR McClure should have a laugh at this blydi shower???
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33,
How many care Jack?? not enough to count mate lol!
I'm in Oz and my locals are 'Prince of Wales' and the 'Tudor inn' SO WHAT??? as many times as you throw a tanty it's in Wales and will remain a part of Wales, get over it eh (-;
Didn't the voters disregard the ED party there in the last senedd election? didn't they get run out of pubs?
Live in your fantasy world Jack (as is your right) but i'm looking to the future and full powers (-;
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Independence and Partition is the only Honest Option
No Assembly
No Welsh Office
No Language Police
No State interference in how we should run our lives.
Election of MP's to Westminster - Nothing in the way of delivering essential services least of all third rate political wannabees
No double whammy of injustice whereby Welsh insitutions (universities are the worse offenders) are allowed to get away with blatent corruption for fear of rocking the devolution boat.
If Ireland can have partition so can we.
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#33 Said
"How many care Jack?? not enough to count mate lol!
I'm in Oz"
Please tell us how long did it took you to learn Australian so you could get a public service job; then we can all have a good laugh!
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I have read some daft opinions on this blog over the last few years, but the concept of partition is easily the stupidest.
Apart from the fact that independence is not currently on the agenda, and that nobody of any significance is supporting redrawing borders in any form, and that the closest example - Northern Ireland - proved to be disastrous, prolonging a bloody conflict for generations........
The United Nations have taken a very definite stand on this over the years - self determination of nations shall not result in redrawing of boundaries. Someone earlier quoted the example of UN doing this for Bosnia 5or was it Kosovo?). They did not - they accepted self-determination based on the existing boundaries only - they did not allow the Serbian enclave in Bosnia to break away from Bosnia, or for Serbian areas neighbouring Serbia to join the 'mother country'.
Exactly the same situation would apply today in Wales - we have a recognised border which was defined in 1536 and which has remained virtually untouched since then. If Wales is to gain its independence (a hypothetical if at this stage) then it will be all or nothing.
Those that are proposing partiton are just trying to muddy the waters and cause confusion, dissent and unrest, wher none currently exist.
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#38 Penddu
As far as stupid is concerned people have a long way to go to catch up with your comments.
Partition is on the agenda because you are talking about it.
You are simply trying to pull the wool over peoples eyes, more powers is going to lead to independence by stealth, and clearly you do not like being caught out.
Aren't you another one that lives abroad telling us how to lead our lives?
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Partition is also on the agenda because it is a solution to a problem where people are unwilling to live together in peace unless the majority are subjugated by the minority. As a [generally] non-violent population, where 5% wish for something quite alien to the remaining 95% of the population, why not ceed 5% of the landmass as a new territory, Monaco is small so size is not an issue.
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#40 Good point Stoney...
Look what happened after Czechoslovakia was partitioned; to quote the Wikipedia
"After a transition period of roughly four years, during which the relations between the states could be characterized as a "post-divorce trauma", the present relations between Czechs and Slovaks, as many people point out, are probably better than they have ever been."
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38 - Neo - I am not talking about partition - I am talking about your proposals for partition. I would never raise such a ridiculous concept.
And I have always been very open about my views on Independence - It can not happen soon enough - But it is not on the agenda today, or in the immediate future (say before 2020) ad will be subject only to the democratic will of the people (that is a real democracy not SMs gerrymandered version of it.
And for the record, while I have regularly lived abroad, I currently live in Cardiff, which is in Wales (unless you get your way).
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#42 penddu wrote..
"And for the record, while I have regularly lived abroad, I currently live in Cardiff, which is in Wales (unless you get your way)."
You have missed the point as usual.
It is for the people to decide, I am simply trying to give them a voice while you and others try to keep them quiet!
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#42 penddu said...
"I have always been very open about my views on Independence - It can not happen soon enough"
To reinforce my point you can express your views about Independence but we are not allowed to talk about Partition which (excuse the pun) is inseparable from Independence!
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41 Your example of Czechoslovakia is an excellent one, which highlights how Engalsn and Wales can live togethere amicabally 'post-divorce'.
It does not provide an example of how an individual state could be partioned, and the only modern example I can think of is Northern Ireland, which only exarcebated divisions rather than heal them.
Can you name me one other country in the world where existing territorial boundaries have been redrawn following independence??
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43 - It was you who raised the question of where I live - so I suggest we drop it.
As for giving people a voice, that is exactly what I am advocating. No move to independence without a fair democratic vote. If the people say no so be it. What is wrong with that???
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#45 Thank you for putting Partition on the Agenda.
I am sure the more we talk about Partition the more we would be able to reach an amecable agreement without the divisions that exist in Northern Ireland.
The only example of redrawing territorial boundaries following independence is India and Parkistan but you seem to be supporting the point made by TheStonemason on that issue.
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This is ridiculous, frankly. I think we should just let the nutters talk amongst themselves if that's what they want to do. Their views are irrelevant to 99.9% of the Welsh people, and we should never forget that.
This is not what Betsan wants to see filling her blog, I'm sure. So why don't we just allow the No To Wales campaign talk amongst themselves, whilst the rest of us talk about what is relevant in the real world?
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#46 Thanks again for putting Partition on the agenda, like you said it needs to be achieved with a fair democratic vote.
Where we live is important as we need to know where any partition is going to take place so we can plan for our future. When complaining about the assembly and the WAG we are frequently told if we don't like it move somewhere else, so once we know where too we can then consider the matter.
If people have any views on independence and partition then I am only too happy to debate the issue, but lay off the judgemental stuff, people are entitled to their opinions without your style of censorship. Not something I would choose to live under.
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At #46 penddu wrote ......
No move to independence without a fair democratic vote. If the people say no so be it.
.... How many people should vote "No" to win such an election ?
.... How long after a defeat would you be up and after a second bite at the apple ?
On the subject of partition, geographical division is a very sensible option where the population has deep divisions. There can be no doubt when speaking to the Nationalists that anything less than a separate state is just not enough, when reading Nationalist blogs there is definitely no second way, read MH_ in his blog and there is a serious discussion on how this brave new Nationalist World will be run, not by the little people, but by an elite political group having a singular objective, Soviet springs to mind.
There must be case for a referendum on the subject of independence, on a county by county basis, creating a new country from the counties that wish for independence, if the counties are not adjacent the true democratic people of Wales would compromise. If no county wished to join an exodus to a new promised land then I'm sure the people of a peninsular could be bought out to create an archipelago for the disgruntled and disaffected separatists of our green and pleasant land.
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Partition (within existing Welsh borders) is not on any sane persons agenda, and personally I will not be discussing it further until it becomes a real issue.
Can we please return to the real world.
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Welsh local Labour force statistics track "Identifying as Welsh" on a yearly basis.
In Wales as a whole 69% Identified as Welsh in 2001
64% Identified as Welsh in 2008
In 2001 Two counties had a minority of Welsh people
In 2008 Four counties had a minority of Welsh people
In 2008 Powys and Ceredigion hovered on the edge with 51% each identifying as Welsh.
A decade of net inward migration coupled with an excess of deaths over births in Wales has made significant demographic changes. Politics has not kept pace.
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Partition? Free Wales? Separation on a county by county basis?
Betsan, the commentators on your blog have taken it to new lows. I thought last week's comments of civil war a la India 1948 took the biscuit but this....dear me.
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50 Discussing only an Independence vote, and not partition - you asked a fair question in:
.... How many people should vote "No" to win such an election ?
.... How long after a defeat would you be up and after a second bite at the apple ?
The UN inisists on a popular democratic vote - and while strictly 50% +1 should be sufficient (of those voting) I would accept that in order for a conclusive result to be recorded, then an enhanced majority of 55% or even 60% should be achieved (but only of those voting). No conclusive result should be challenged by a revote for a period of 10 years. However, if the winning (or losing margin) was between 50% and the 55% (or 60%) in either direction then the vote should be recorded as inconclusive, and a re-vote allowed within 2 years.
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37
Out of context as usual,
Anyways i've never worked in the public sector here neo?? senior shop steward at one of Oz's biggest privately owned companies, sadly i was struck down with 'clinical depression' a few years ago and am unable to work still!
Chortle away fool (-:
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Re Partition and a name - How about "Servilia"? And you'd need a motto -"Conquered and proud of it" and maybe a flag - St George slaying a Red Dragon?....Seriously it never ceases to amaze me how people can despise their own country so much.
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