Holding your breath
So what has Peter Hain announced this morning?
If you're in his shoes, the answer is "a major breakthrough for Wales".
If you're in Adam Price MP's, it's "a betrayal of the people of Wales".
What is 'it'? It's the UK Government's response to this man's report. Gerry Holtham chaired an independent commission that looked at the way Wales is funded. It concluded that by the end of the next decade, without reform, Wales could have lost out by more than £8 billion pounds - the equivalent to £2,900 per Welsh resident - due to the formula being used at the moment to work out how much public money comes to Wales - the Barnett Formula.
The Holtham Commission report also said there should be an immediate "funding floor", so that Wales doesn't slip any further behind, ahead of the whole system being fundamentally reformed.
That was the wish-list. What's been delivered?
Mr Hain is clear that the Barnett formula so far has delivered a fair deal for Wales but that if in future it does, then he's got a commitment from the Chancellor Alastair Darling - for the first time as he points out - that "the UK Government will take action if Wales becomes disproportionately disadvantaged by the Barnett Formula".
What does that commitment amount to?
It's not Gerry Holtham's "floor" - the interim measure whereby the Treasury would amend the Barnett formula to effectively freeze funding at the current level.
There is no specific floor in this commitment and it's not clear either to what extent a future Conservative chancellor, should there be one any time soon, would be bound by Mr Darling's Welsh deal.
Gerry Holtham isn't talking major breakthroughs but neither is he talking betrayal. He's welcomed the promise "to take steps to ensure that Wales is not 'disproportionately disadvantaged' in the future". He is clearly on side.
Then comes the qualifier: "Evidently there is work to be done to make the pledges operational, and also to consider the other recommendations that are not covered by the UK Government's statement".
So what of those who see in Mr Hain's statement a betrayal?
They hone in on one word in the key statement and cry foul: "if Wales becomes disproportionately disadvantaged by the Barnett Formula". If? It already is disproportionately disadvantaged, they argue. That's exactly what the Holtham Commission concluded after all and the UK Government don't seem to be saying he's wrong.
No ifs. No buts says Adam Price.
"They recognise implicitly that Wales is 'disadvantaged' by the Barnett Formula, as it has been for decades and for which we are acutely suffering, but will only step in once Wales is 'disproportionately disadvantaged', whatever that means. Quite simply, this is a betrayal of the people of Wales and, in every area of Wales, people will now know that Labour has simply let them down".
I doubt somehow whether you were waiting for a cheque for £2,900 to land on your mat - or even appear in your account in instalments. IF you were by any chance, now's the time to stop holding your breath and start wondering just what the Conservatives would do about reforming the Barnett Formula.
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~35~RS~)
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Before stonemason gets in, not a lot I suppose.
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So economist Gerald Holtham says Wales is losing out by £300m a year, he continues .....
..... a new funding formula is needed to reflect the actual cost of providing services for Wales.
..... I seem to remember that devolution costs in the region of £300 million every year in its administration, what do we actually get for that £300 million, other that an unelected coalition.
How much would a Mayor cost the burdened taxpayers of Wales, probably the same as the offices of the Presiding Officer and First Minister combined, a saving of £300 million no doubt.
Conservatives however, reiterated a concern for every member of the public when Nick Ramsay AM said .....
"We have repeatedly called on the UK government to show leadership on this issue and look at an updated, needs-based assessment of how spending should be allocated across the UK."
The Conservative voice of reason in the face of Plaids Adam Price in his usual introspective vision.
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Completely meaningless statement considering that nothing is going to happen before the next General election. We don't even know what the general direction of public expenditure under a labour government will be until the pre budget report. No date has been set for the next comprehensive spending review and we will have to wait until the Tories' first emergency budget in June to see where they will make the cuts. Does anyone seriously expect Wales to get more money as public expenditure in England is being cut to shreds. This is Alice in Wonderland politics.
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Why not a £2,900 hand out to every citizen to spend on whatever they like ? Now that would be a vote catcher.
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Two Assembly committee's criticise WAG .....
The Welsh Government failed to collaborate sufficiently and failed to gather crucial information during the planning of the multi-million pound Red Dragon Project at the St Athan Defence Aviation Repair Agency (DARA) site in South Wales, according to the Public Accounts Committee of the National Assembly for Wales.
and .....
The Welsh Government’s budget fails to respond "adequately" to the economic situation facing Wales. That's the view of the National Assembly for Wales' Finance Committee in a report on the government's draft budget proposals. "The Finance Committee's main comment is the view that the draft budget does not seem to respond adequately to the difficult circumstances that now confront Wales as it is in one of the deepest recessions of recent years," said Committee Chair, Angela Burns AM. Angela Burns is the Conservative who kicked Plaid Chair John Dixon into the long grass of losers at the last election.
..... I think Hain spoke of the WAG "bedding in", the roots are certainly firmly in the well composted soil, unfortunately the plant is yet to blossom with any certainty.
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Once again you move away from democracy to a Napoleonic solution, why not abolish Parliament at Westminster and elect a Mayor/PM?
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Without going into the rights or wrongs of the funding question, it does serve as another example of the Government establishing a commission to ask difficult questions then simply ignoring the findings.
What is the point of asking the question if you might not like the answer
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I suppose one should expect the response from Adam price M.P. as he has a perpetual "gripe" that little wales has had a rough deal from the english and from proble the martians as well. Lets be absolutely frank and ask Plaid Cymru how in the present economic climate throught world,with jobs in manufacturing being lost,how could wales possible fund itself without the gift of english taxpayers money. Its a bit rich for PC who are determined to split wales from UK to ask for MORE MONEY from the english taxpayers. The responsibility of WAG is surely to ensure that current funding is ruthlessly analysed and services re-adjusted to current needs,no matter what the political storm it might create. Look at NHS expenditure and £1 Billion being wrongly allocated,well thats a start to go on with !!!
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O/T for NC - I have signed your petition - and also just passed through your site again - this time from Scotland, although in reality I am only 5 minutes walk from where I was this morning
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Wales standing on its own economic feet
“Universities vital to building Britain’s future”: Lord Mandelson
# Students should have assurances of quality says Mandelson, ahead of fees review
# Government wants to increase business-university links as economic importance of higher education sector rises
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There are 60 million UK citizens Lyn_Thomas, London with a population greater than 7 million manage quite well with a democratically elected mayor, Wales with less than half that population could manage as well.
I think you might have it wrong penddu .......
The Holtham Commission was a WAG project.
Wales funding at its current levels are probably tight but sufficient for the community cake, its the portion control that needs scrutiny; this is an aspect of government that goes awry following years of plenty when the chefs became proficient at picking pockets, and profligate in the use of scarce ingredients for dubious effect.
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#10
What I intended to say before I hit the wrong button was that our economy is not just about manufacturing, Universities play an important part in our inward investment from abroad.
We need to develop our universities the same way as they are being developed in England.
As someone pointed out to me we need to do something about the dependency culture and that includes dependency on the English taxpayer. That we do this is in the interests of all the people of Wales.
Who is our equivalent of Peter Mandelson?
That explains why we are lagging behind.
#9 Thank you
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11 ....and the G in WAG stands for?????
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#13 I must have missed your point, I think, but as Westminster controls Barnett ....... the Holtham Commission is only supportive of a WAG position ???
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It is surprising that we do not have a University in the Worlds top 400
Universities with Swansea making it in at 494th. The first welsh Uni in the British rankings is Cardiff at 19th. I don't know what they go on but whatever it is Wales aren't very good. Perhaps you can throw a little light Neo.
I thought the way WAG finances R+D at Bangor,Aber Swansea and Cardiff
we were the Beez Kneez perhaps we should be investing in Cambridge as they rank No 2 in the world and No1 in Britain.
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Re 11
The penny clearly still hasn't dropped! But, again, it really is very, very simple:
London = city
Wales = nation
There you are - simple.
By the way, will you be singing our national anthem this Saturday? Perhaps it's because you don't have a good voice that you are so coy about it all.
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16
Wales = Nation in Rugby as in "6 Nations"
When else is this area of the UK refered to as such?
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This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
Re 17
Erm... as in National Assembly for Wales, National Museum of Wales, National Library of Wales, National Botanical Gardens of Wales, Welsh National Opera, BBC National Orchestra of Wales, BBC NATIONS and regions, two National Theatre companies..............!!!!!!!!!!
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#16 FoDafydd, further to your last .....
London = people
Wales = people
..... though not so simple, London 7 million population with 25 assembly members plus Mayor, Wales 3 million population with 60 assembly members plus Lord Dafydd Elis-Thomas but wanting an extra 20; so many people wishing to tell me how to live my life, if DC wins next year it might start a democratic ball rolling not seen since early Labour days.
As a choir boy in my youth I started singing and I continue singing, including national anthems, though not as a choir member these days, Barbershop I like a great deal, there is nobody coy at this keyboard.
I don't have so much time in the evenings these days, we are very busy in the Caerphilly area, including parts of RCT and Cardiff, building a service for elderly folk, property maintenance plus a handyman service, materials at cost, plus small travelling expenses, very affordable, putting a little back without a fanfare.
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#15 thegnatswatter
I did give you an answer but it was referred to the moderators!
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Re 20
People, eh? Who would have thought. They are the individuals of course who together gives us society. Society: that thing Thatcher and her cronies denied their existence, before going on deliberately to destroy them anyway.
But back to my simple initial point, nothing has changed -
London = city
Wales = nation
I'm very glad to hear that you will be singing the Welsh National Anthem tomorrow with the same gusto as the rest of us!
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#22
You must be referring to "imagined communities", can you have a nation with two very distinct identities ?
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Re 23
That's a very, very, very strange question from someone who believes that Britain is a nation!!!!!
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Not strange if you read Imagined Communities by Benedict Anderson. The question you might have asked is "are these two very distinct identities also imagined".
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Whilst you all carry on with the usual arguments that permeate every blog entry, is anyone going to discuss the statement that help will only step in once Wales is 'disproportionately disadvanted'.
Apparently, they don't mind if we are proportionately disadvantaged...there's lovely
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Re 26
I'm afraid we've been let down by Westminster again. The Barnett Formula is failing us - the author himself accepts that - and the British government doesn't particularly care.
"the UK Government will take action if Wales becomes disproportionately disadvantaged by the Barnett Formula".
- that seems to me to be a meaningless statement. Who decides when we become 'disproportionately disadvantaged'? Peter Hain? Bad news. Cheryl Gillan? A disaster. And they will have no real clout anyway; it's just little old Wales. Labour still wants to appeal to middle England, and we are just too far from the playing fields of Eton for the toffs in waiting to even care.
We're back to depending on the crumbs from the Westminster government once again.
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It's nice to know we have welshmen at Westminster fighting for Wales rather than the Plaid Three who are completely indolent. No wonder
Adam Price wants to abdicate he's done nothing for Carmarthen East
just tried to feed his own insatiable ego. I welcome the extra funding and hope that it's spent on tackling social injustice and not squandered
on silly linguistic strategys that pander to a very minute section of
welsh society.Thats the difference between Plaid and the rest we want
progress Plaid want to hold us back because of their lack of influence
on the bigger stage.
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Stonemason, London has a local government body, dressed up as an assembly. It is not a legislature, it is a county council by any other name. Huge difference in the powers of the National Assembly and the Welsh Government. Hence the difference. For the record I oppose the elected mayor, weak council model. Its the Führer principle writ large, not a very democratic model in my view.
Now back to reality. The Barnett Formula was a temporary fix to a problem 30 years ago. It was never intended as a long term solution to funding the nations and regions of the UK, thus to stick with it regardless of its disadvantages smacks of both stupidity and incompetence in terms of financial management and addressing actual needs. Wales is poor, not because the people here are stupid or less able than the rest of the UK but due to the historic economic environment here. This is largely the result of central government action and especially inaction. Now I am critical of the Welsh Government's responses over the first 8 years of devolution, we failed to get full match funding for EU money and thus had to pay for it out of other budgets rather than have it as a top up from central government. We also spent it wrongly in my view. I would put most of it on infrastructure projects, communications, especially high speed internet, and in reskilling people, largely through the higher and further education sectors. I would have set up a proper investment bank to enable local companies to borrow at considerably reduced rates and given business rates holidays in the most depressed areas. But that is in the past, now we have an opportunity to get rid of the old funding formula that is not meeting our needs and create a new one that does, and what happens? A commission that was set up to examine the situation reports and is largely ignored. We have Peter Hain acting in his governor general role, Westminster's voice in Wales, not Wales in Westminster, telling us that don't worry, if you are really really badly disadvantaged we will ensure that you don't become even more disadvantaged! No commitment to meeting the needs of Wales, just don't worry your little heads we know best and we will make sure you don't get the money you need, just what we think you need!
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..... and while I was asleep .....
Lyn_Thomas wrote something, possibly the first, that I could sign up to .....
Wales is poor, not because the people here are stupid or less able than the rest of the UK .....
and ...
We also spent it wrongly in my view. I would put most of it on infrastructure projects, communications, especially high speed internet, and in re-skill [ing] people, largely through the higher and further education sectors.
You might be a closet Conservative ....
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LOL thanks but no thanks Stonemason, maybe you are a closet socialist and are close to renouncing your previous beliefs that the only proper function of government is defence, the police and the courts?
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Re 31
Why doesn't Stonemason post he what he previously had on his own blog, so that everyone can judge what he said? And meant!
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I think he has taken it down because he doesn't want people to know just how extreme his views are... abolish the nhs, ban state funding of schools, toll all the roads etc...
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The only deduction was a sentence you were unable to comprehend, I put it down to a poor understanding of JSM and his writings, but to put the record straight there was no mention of any government department, they are the meanderings of a spouting Thomas.
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Re 34
Well, if I know anything, it is that Keynes was NOT, ever a neo-con like your good self.
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I'm not sure how Keynes got into the conversation, I referred to John Stuart Mill.
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Re 36
My mistake! But if you were to put up your initial neo-con manifesto on here, there would be no room for misunderstanding, would there?
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FiFo, on my blog I have .....
I tend to support ......
...... maximum liberty in both personal and economic matters. I advocate much smaller government.
I also tend to embrace individual responsibility, oppose government bureaucracy and taxes, promote private charity, tolerate diverse lifestyles, support the free market, and defend civil liberties.
I deleted 7 words which were taken from the same source as the remainder, all was from On Liberty by JSM.
..... the words I deleted were being used by yourself and L_T to distract, the context were 19th century that you both were unable or unwilling to put in the context of current politics, I am not a neo... anything, I am a small government advocate, my call ......... as you write simple
Plaid have been found out and have been outed, you have a political philosophy that the vast majority of the people living and working in Wales find at the very least "oddly old-fashioned", or as I do "dysfunctional spite", there is no common ground FIFo, all the Union has to do is get more and more vocal telling it as it is .......... the economy is beginning to bounce back, whoever wins the next election will be forced into a wealth generation mode, with wealth Nationalism becomes a "bust flush".
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