Direct from Cameron?
Ok, so I was wrong.
Wrong because he's in North Wales tomorrow and if asked - and let's face it, Mr Cameron doesn't make it over the border without being asked - he will apparently give a clear answer.
No, no veto.
No, no rubbing noses in it - not everyone in his party will like it after all - but no ambiguity either. No veto.
No, as I've written before, falling into bear traps.
But a clear policy on devolution? No. No veto doesn't amount to one of those. Saying yes to a referendum doesn't mean saying yes in one. Welsh Conservatives will campaign on both sides.
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~01~RS~)
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Too many nots in that sentence - I am confused.......
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Well at least Cameron's leadership is consistently equivocal: can't decide over Europe, won't decide over Wales. As someone once said: "what's he for?"
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A clever move by DAVE as the part of his party that have got on to the welsh "gravy train" wants more powers because it helps their climb up the greasy pole in cardiff. More powers equals more jobs/power/salaries/benefits and no politician can resist such opportunities for personal advancement. Our DAVE has also "spiked" the guns of the NATS (NOW IN GOVERNMENT) with King Rhodri,who have the need to peddle unfounded allegations that Conservatives are allways trying to do down little wales. It is surely right that the conservative party in wales (membership) and also its hardy supporters are still not totally supportive of current arrangement,let alone giving more powers to a structure that has not delivered any substantial improvements in public services,even though it has received the greatest sum of public money ever provided by HMG.The economic future looks extremly bleak with North Sea oil running out which was the sole reason the fantastic and reckless spending by Blair/Brown which has been wasted in wales on NATIONALISTIC priorities and not those of ordinary people like myself. What do I know as this "mickey mouse" administration gave £1Million to Mittal who owns Corus,when he is apparently worth £10 Billion and owns QPR. I suppose it paid for 1 leg of a new striker?. Never mind its going to be interesting with Hain and large part of Labour against more powers,so both major parties uncertain with only NATS and Liberals (who are you) totally committed to more powers,with NATS on their way to seperating wales from rest of UK and affilliation to Europe and benificent rule by Germans/French.
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Too right Number Three! It is an absolute disgrace that the Tories have joined the others in being one and all with the NATS. Don't they understand that there is no such thing as 'Wales'? I never trusted them when they were in Lady T's cabinet, going on about their so-called Welsh roots and always sounding more and more like socialists. Now they have sold England out. How on earth are we supposed to make this region a place fit for Englishmen to live in?
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A 'cast iron assurance' from De Cameron no doubt?
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3. Igotitallwrongsorry
Wow your angry. Slightly missing the point too, but I'll let you off on that.
I'm actually realy woried for Wales after the next election considering it looks like the tories are going to win in westminister. Regardless of all the comments coming from Cameron on the subject I'm convinced that they will try to restrict powers for Wales at every turn. He's made a few comments about the relationship between westminister and the assembly that have me worried.
Plus if he makes the mess in Europe that he looks like doing it might have implications for the funding we recieve from the EU for important schemes in the valleys etc.
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Mr Cameron doesn't exactly have a good record when it comes to "cast iron" guarantees about referendums.
I'm not saying that he didn't have good reasons for what has happened over the Lisbon Treaty, but I am saying that—if circumstances change—any "cast iron" guarantee he might give about allowing a Welsh referendum might go just the same way. It's easy enough to think up reasons, I've listed a few here.
Labour would be prize fools if they trusted Cameron to deliver and he then failed to do it.
Cameron, some time in 2011 or 2012, would just say, "Labour had plenty of opportunity to fulfill their firm commitment to give Wales a referendum, but they failed to do it. So it's not me you should be blaming, it's them!"
The parallel is almost exact ... scarily similar.
Come on Labour, you don't trust the Tories one inch on anything else, so why put yourselves entirely in their hands on this referendum? Act while you are still in control in Westminster.
MH @ Syniadau
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MH - your arguments are a bit academic, as Labour are goung to romp home in 2010 and deliver us all a new socialist utopia ;o).
I have this warm soggy feeling whenever I think about Peter Hain.......
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6 Colon... Not angry at all and pray tell me where I'm slightly missing the point!!. I just observe that amongst my friends and general circle of aquaintances who all come basically from the old solid and very respectable "working classes" that there is only disdain and general apathy towards the "goings on" in Bay of Irrelevance". The only people who wanted devolution were the NATS (Who want independance) and old Labour who wanted hands on power.The present "drive" for more powers is coming from the usual suspects,and also new adherants who can see benefits for themselves,i.e.conservative AM's and media who have expanded their empires dramatically in BBC CYMRU's political department. The rest of people are apathetic at best,however our views count for very little compared to the vested interests who will get this through come what may. The position of Dave on Europe is absolutely correct as by passing powers to Germans/French etc who have never been friends of UK we got nothing out of Europe other than some of our money back,but we are still net contributors to budget which goes to subsidise french farmers who are quite happy to burn our sheep alive when it so suits them. As Nicholas Ridley said Europe is a German "racket" and the quicker we pull out the better.
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8. Another oracle Penddu or just a matter of a 'damp squib'?
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Dave's position is very interesting, it was the Conservatives who took us into Europe so they paid to subsidise our farmers through the Common Agricultural Policy as we could no longer afford it.
Could it be that Dave is happy for Wales to have independence so that Europe pays for the massive Welsh subsidy instead of the English paying for it under the Barnet formula.
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9. At 6:27pm on 05 Nov 2009, Igotitallwrongsorry wrote:
6 Colon... Not angry at all and pray tell me where I'm slightly missing the point!!. I just observe that amongst my friends and general circle of aquaintances who all come basically from the old solid and very respectable "working classes" that there is only disdain and general apathy towards the "goings on" in Bay of Irrelevance". The only people who wanted devolution were the NATS (Who want independance) and old Labour who wanted hands on power.The present "drive" for more powers is coming from the usual suspects,and also new adherants who can see benefits for themselves,i.e.conservative AM's and media who have expanded their empires dramatically in BBC CYMRU's political department. The rest of people are apathetic at best,however our views count for very little compared to the vested interests who will get this through come what may. The position of Dave on Europe is absolutely correct as by passing powers to Germans/French etc who have never been friends of UK we got nothing out of Europe other than some of our money back,but we are still net contributors to budget which goes to subsidise french farmers who are quite happy to burn our sheep alive when it so suits them. As Nicholas Ridley said Europe is a German "racket" and the quicker we pull out the better.
I'm one of the 'old solid working classes, and I hold the assembly in the same level of distane as I used to hold westminister before the expense scandal. They are politicians, what do you expect?
Also in case I was wrong there was a referendum on devolution and Wales voted in favour, that seems to be a fairly water tight guide of what people want if you ask me.
Incidentally I was talking about 'Daves' current stance on trying to get more powers back from Brussels. The Lisbon treaty is a good thing for Wales, as is the EU in general. Wales puts practically nothing into the EU and the money we get is far more than we would ever get from Westminister. Ergo we are going to be detrementally effected by the Tories causing trouble in Europe by trying to pull out of bits of the treaty.
Your views of the EU show a deep seated xenophobia on your part.
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My apologies for saying "cast iron" in #7. Cameron said his referendum guarantee was "iron-clad".
MH @ Syniadau
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12. The "referendum" was won by the thinnest of margins and this was on back of scotland voting heavily for Parliament,so there was psychological impact which helped the YES camp. If you add the media support it was not resounding,and if you extrapolate the voting patterns on to local authority registers there was actual majority against it being set up. The reason being the area's nearest england by and large voted very heavily against,whilst the welsh speaking heartlands,but with smaller populations voted for it. With regard to our DAVE I do understand that he is trying to pacify his europe sceptic MP's and also fairly large and significant part of general electorate who do not like the european political venture at all. I am not xenophobic at all,rather the opposite,however that does not mean I support european federalisation which was allways the aim of the Treaty of Rome 1956 which we (UK) did not sign. Enoch Powell was absolutely right in this instance as well when after reading the said Treaty of Rome he became aware of loss of sovereignty as hence his opposition to the venture. Of course wales has benefited from european funds because of its relative remoteness from markets/structural economic difficulties,however the benefial impact of the largesse seems to have wasted as far as enabling us to make our own way in world.Any country that cannot control who fishes in its own territorial waters is a "joke",and our DAVE is absolutely right in seeking to repatriate powers to the UK Parliament.
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Playing as a ‘WelshKnot’ for an eveing was instructive, but grim. After an upgrade I could not get back on the system as ‘Returnee’ and decided to try for an evening to get into the mindset of those who appear to abhor everything to do with Wales. I was tempted to carry on for twenty four hours, but one evening was quite enough. So the ‘Welsh Hate Eight’ are back to being the ‘Sulky Seven’.
Logically, if only in Wales does constitutional change require a 60% majority and so on, then it is clear that what the anti-devolutionists are saying is that Wales has no right to determine its future in any way.
Every poll involves the potential for constitutional change and simply to say that only in Wales should extra barriers be raised is implying that the people of Wales ought not to be allowed to be in charge even in considering their own destiny.
So, why not be honest and say that Welsh people ought not to be allowed to vote, in case voting changes things.
Thank goodness the Conservatives have a sound leader who is ready and willing to engage with the democratic process of turning Wales into a functioning democracy.
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.... should extra barriers be raised ....
Not extra barriers, in fact no barriers, only a reaffirmation of democracy, a democracy where a real majority of all the electorate would approve or otherwise, any referendum offered to them. Some seem to find it difficult working in a democracy that has not been weighted in their favour.
I have contemplated how Cardiff Bay might explain, to the electorate, why they choose not to support a real electoral majority, would it not be an example of democracy to the rest of the United Kingdom.
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The fact of the matter is that even if 100% of AMs wanted independance they would be required to ask the permission of the Welsh Secratry of State to call a referendum on the subject.
'Permission' and 'Referendum', so there are two bridges to cross even if all AMs were in agreement.
Even given the permission for a referendum the more 'publically known' figures in westminister could pick sides and severly influence the vote.
I think it's about time they called a referendum on the subject and totally ignore anything the bods in westminister had to say.
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The Referendum is not about Independence...............
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Re 16
Stonemason,
"Some seem to find it difficult working in a democracy that has not been weighted in their favour."
From the man who has taken upon himself to regard votes that weren't cast to be in agreement with him!! It is becoming increasingly clear that you are actually the opponent of democracy, Stonemeson. Your inability to answer any of the questions posed to you recently is merely further proof of that.
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No inability to answer, preferring to debate the issues elsewhere, just waiting for the petition to be posted Fo, in the meantime, votes not cast are votes not counted, votes lost to democracy.
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18. At 2:42pm on 06 Nov 2009, penddu wrote:
The Referendum is not about Independence...............
=================
I know its about law making powers not independance, but then law making powers would give us independance in certain areas and is the first step towards being fully independant.
Thats besides the point though, I was just using an extreme example to point out the problems I see in the system. Even if all AMs were in agreement westminister could still stop it happening.
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Re 14.
Igotitallwrongsorry,
as you say, along the English border the NO vote from the Vale of Glamorgan, Newport, Monmouthshire, Brecon and Radnor, Flintshire et cetera averaged 65%, whilst not forgetting Pembrokeshire.
Check out these two maps, where the said No vote was high, the second map is turning a delightful shade of blue, British Conservative blue.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_devolution_referendum,_1997
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/welsh-politics/welsh-politics-news/2009/06/09/we-are-now-fighting-for-the-very-existence-of-welsh-labour-91466-23820597/
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Betsan,
i've been reading this blog for sometime but have never contributed up until now.
Our tiny cabal of Welsh haters are thrashing around in their death throes, venting their spleen and spitting their hatred at every opportunity knowing full well they're gone, finished, Kaput!!
I'm Cardiff born and bred, have supported Plaid since '73 i don't speak Welsh (nor has anyone tried to force me to BTW)
I can't believe what some of these folk post!! They renind me of another cabal
on another politics forum LOL! if this is so they're spreading themselves very thinly like lol!!
I look forward to a referendum on further powers for the Senedd and Wales ASAP!!
If you hadn't guessed already i'm from the progressive left of Plaid and i see Adam Price as our future leader.
I will be voting in Cardiff West (despite being in Oz) and i wish Neil McEvoy and party supporters/workers all the best!!
PS has 'true Wales' membership hit 3 figures yet????
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.... the progressive left of Plaid ....
An oxymoron I believe; the extreme left as offered by Plaid has lost its way throughout Europe, and Wales is no exception, fortunately David Cameron has painted a blue future where the moderates from all parties are comfortable.
It remains to show the democratic electorate exactly what Plaid has in its kaleidoscope like imagination, the 60's song "Lucy in the sky with diamonds" comes to mind, no substance except when taken with a stiff drink.
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For you to say that Plaid is extreme left just shows how far to the right you are stonemason, you are no moderate. Your anti social spending views show that, your belief that government should be restricted to just security, ie police, the courts and the military, shows just how far you are beyond the normal spectrum of left and right.
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#25 Lyn_Thomas .....
The Labour party to the left of centre in the UK is pluralist, the Conservative Party to the right of centre in the UK is pluralist, Plaid has a left of the Labour Party single economic model written for all to see, this places Plaid to the "extreme left".
My views are Pluralist, small government, people centred democratic, a very centrist political expression. Such views are not compatible with Plaids vision of a separate Socialist Republic.
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No your views are not pluralist, you wish to determine how people are counted as voting, thus you are not a democrat or a pluralist. Plaid is a pluralist democratic party, one that believes in self determination for the nation, communities and the individual. Its not difficult to be left of Labour these days, the Liberal Democrats are to the left of it for the most part. The Labour party is no longer leftist.
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Stoney,
You can believe what you like fella, i am what i am!
You can scream, jump up and down and shout "off with his head" i don't give a toss TBH (-;
As for your 'lucy in the sky with diamonds' comment, sureley it wouldn't be a "stiff drink" you'd take to listen too it???
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#27 Lyn_Thomas where you write .....
No your views are not pluralist, you wish to determine how people are counted as voting ...
Sorry, the whole point is if you do not vote your vote is not counted, it makes it more difficult to foist extremist views on the population as a whole, get out there Lyn_Thomas and convince a real majority that your far left socialist republic is what they need.
#28 where Gareth Jones writes .........
.... surely it wouldn't be a "stiff drink" you'd take to listen too it???
You seem to demonstrate a better knowledge of mind-altering substances than me, this knowledge of yours, it would help the unwary in accepting the nonsense verse emanating from Plaid headquarters I assume.
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