Yes, probably.
If you don't want a referendum, then it's probably best that you look away now and avoid direct eye contact with the All Wales Convention's report.
The gist of it? Go for it, though we don't guarantee you'll win it.
It cost £1.3million, is 132 pages long in each language and is not the "fuzzy" piece of work Sir Emyr Jones Parry thought you and I expected of him. The All Wales Convention comes to the unequivocal conclusion that, based on what ordinary people and institutions have said in their evidence, based on "impartial and carefully prepared scrutiny of what we heard", adopting a system where the National Assembly can make its own laws without having to refer to Westminster would be more efficient and clearer than the current system. More importantly, the evidence says that is what people want.
Ideally the Convention says a vote on holding a referendum would be held before June 2010 so that the referendum itself can be held - and won or lost - before the next Assembly Election.
And here comes the 1.3 million pound question. Does the Convention think that referendum would be won? I'll quote the crucial passage from the report: "Our judgement is that a "yes" vote in a referendum is obtainable, but the evidence we have collected underlines that there can be no certainty about this".
I'm not bound by diplomatic language so let me sum it up like this: the current system is pretty messed up if not entirely broken. You do want to fix it but we can't guarantee that if you were asked to vote on it, enough of you would turn out and enough of you would say 'yes.'
The sum of its parts
At the embargoed briefing, a brisk Sir Emyr and his team kept suspense to a minimum. The All Wales Convention makes "an unequivocal recommendation for the merits of Part 4". Stay with me. I'll explain. This - every 'part' in all its glory - is important.
The current system where the Assembly must first get the nod from Westminster before it gets extra powers came about thanks to the Government of Wales Act. If there's a referendum held and won, then technically we would be moving on to Part 4 of the Government of Wales Act.
There would be "substantial advantages" to doing that according to the Convention.
Why?
An interesting point to kick off: as things are now more powers are devolved to the Assembly via framework powers - in other words hitching a lift with a passing piece of UK-wide legislation - than via the infamous LCOs. That route of devolving power isn't open to scrutiny by the Assembly. Powers are devolved based on the say-so and the whim of ministers based in London and are exposed to next to no public debate.
Contrast that with the LCO system where pretty limited powers are devolved only after a great deal of scrutiny and debate.
Sir Emyr had our attention. On he went.
If full law-making powers were devolved then it would be much easier to legislate strategically. With the LCO system, that's not possible. On big things like climate change that affect half a dozen policy areas, you can think strategically if you start with the powers you need and a blank piece of paper. If you start with a long and complex list of bids for power from another institution that you're not even sure you're going to get, you can't.
Laws, in the end, must be accessible and capable of being implemented. Granting full law-making powers comes closer to achieving that than the current system.
The system by which laws are made should be transparent and understood by the ordinary people of Wales. Mrs Edwards from Pontypridd and Mrs Jones from Bonymaen were invoked. Conclusion? They don't understand how their Assembly gets its powers and therefore, makes laws. In a democracy, it's vital they do understand. Granting full law-making powers comes closer to achieving that than the current system.
Do the ordinary people of the UK I asked - I was thinking Mrs Wilson from Portsmouth - really understand the system of law-making in Westminster, an argument put forward regularly by the Secretary of State for Wales. Maybe not came the response but do you draw much comfort from that? The glint in the eyes turned steely.
There should be one place where the law of Wales is available and under the current system, there is not.
"A great fog"
There was, he said, "a great fog out there, a lack of understanding." In a democracy, that was no good at all.
Could the current number of Assembly Members - 60 - handle the enhanced powers? Yes, though adding to that number in future isn't ruled out.
So on what had the Convention based the 'yes vote obtainable' conclusion? On the evidence heard and on the polling evidence too. Their own poll suggested 47% would vote yes, 37% would vote no. That leaves 16% undecided or saying they wouldn't vote.
And there you have it: the 'winnable but no guarantee of winning' formula we've come to know so well over the past few months.
Then came the equivalent of the Big If. Many factors would impact on the result of a referendum - perceptions of nationhood, how the Welsh Assembly Government has performed, attitudes to Scotland and so on. Popularity of the campaign leader seemed fairly near the top of the list. The clear implication? Use Rhodri Morgan.
As expected then, no guarantees that a referendum, if held, would be won.
How much would holding a vote cost? "The closest comparator would be the recent European elections - the costs in Wales for holding this election in June 2009 (counting officer fees) came to approximately £4.9m. Campaigning costs? £100,000 per campaign -Yes and No.
There is a lot more in the 132 pages that deserves scrutiny. Turn to p.26 for a stab at how much the current system costs, p.100 for a clear marker that says governing by restrictions and exceptions - you can have this bit of power but not that - is not a reasonable way forward. If there's a 'yes' vote, any changes to the list of the areas where power is devolved "should reflect the legitimacy which the National Assembly for Wales would have been given in that referendum".
Will the report change the minds of those who believe a referendum would be lost?
Unlikely.
Will Peter Hain continue to believe that holding a referendum soon would be a show of "bad faith to Parliament" and that Parliament wouldn't agree "to trigger a referendum before of during 2011" anyway?
Probably.
Will the report put considerable pressure on Rhodri Morgan's successor?
Definitely.
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~41~RS~)
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Bring it on ASAP as far as i'm concerned (-;
Totally meaningless in the great scheme of things i know but all my family (apart from 2) voted No last time, all but 1 will be voting yes this time, if my mob can turn around then it augers well imho!
Nice to get on before the anti's lynch mob arrives too.
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A little disappointed that Syr Em and mates don't seem to have had much of a look at fiscal stuff. Outside remit maybe but really don't want to "waste" this referendum. It will be interesting what the Queen's speech says about the Calman recommenndations for Scotland.
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Dewi,
like you say o/s the remit mate, getting down to the nuts and bolts with the people was the job in hand (-;
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That's interesting - having full powers would save money (£2m pa saving below with about £700kpa of legal costs required in streamlined process.
3.2.5 We have sought with some difficulty to un-bundle the costs associated with legislation, and to establish the net effect if Part 4 of GoWA 2006 were to enter into force. The Welsh Assembly Government estimated that the cost of policy officials’ time spent on getting powers through LCOs and Framework Powers in UK Bills in 2008/09 was £1.07 million,15 and that the cost of the legal staff involved in the same work was £0.91 million.16 This makes a total annual cost of £1.98 million in Welsh Assembly Government staff costs for 2008/09 on the acquisition of powers through LCOs and Framework Bills - this work would not be needed should the National Assembly for Wales move to Part 4.
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Quite enjoying this - lovely quote from a "member of the public"
3.4.9 Some, including the Wales Women’s National Coalition and RSPB Cymru highlighted the complexity of the LCO process, generally seeing it as a negative feature. One member of the public felt that “it is a model of over-intricacy that can only be described as Byzantine. If we judge it against the criteria of openness, simplicity and value for money it fails on all three. It is not a model for good governance”. He added “at this point it is not enough to claim, as some prominent politicians have done, that getting a few LCOs through the system is proof that the system ‘works’”.
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Sorry to keep on but another gem:
"As a direct comparison with Wales the Plaid Cymru Parliamentary Group stated that “in its first four year term the Scottish Parliament passed 62 Acts. Thus far, 18 months into the four year term, the Assembly and Westminster have passed 2 Measures and 3 LCOs”."
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OK Para 3.8.2 says that Barnett and other funding issues are outside the committee's remit. Now I'm going to sleep.
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Correct on all accounts Dewi!
Nos da(-;
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Is this a record of some sort? 8 posts in and not a peep from the 'lynch mob'????
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Good news, will they have the backbone and stomach to fund both the Yes and No campaigns for a democratic race.
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100k each Stoney (-;
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That's not a lot in the great scheme of things, was it a billion that Hart has mismanaged ?
Half a million split two ways sounds a better amount, but who will now start to add the contributions by other organisations so that there is not a gross overspend by either side, the Rowntree foundation for example.
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Seems like another expensive fudge. Money that could have been better spent wasted on an inconclusive report littered with get out of jail
clauses. A nice little earner for the commission and Emyr Jones Parry
though.
9. We had a good nights sleep you unfortunately will have many sleepless
nights until the final decision is taken in June(if at all).So near
yet so far !!!
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What a complete waste of a year. As for pressure on Rhodri Morgan's successor. It definitely wouldn't come from the Labour Party. If Plaid wish to place a motion before the Assembly before June 2010 then that is up to them. Labour AMs will only vote in the affirmative if the wider party agree. With Labour MPs opposed to a referendum before 2011 and an election to be fought before June then the odds of such an event happening is pretty slim. To argue that the Assembly can become a full law making body without extra members and therefore have no effect on Welsh representation at Westminster is nonsense. You also can't have full law making powers in my opinion without some form of revenue raising powers to finance those new laws particularly in the present economic climate.Those who point to the large numbers of Acts passed by the Scottish Parliament should really look at the effect of many of those Acts. Many Scottish commentators argue that too mnay new laws have been passed in Scotland for the sake of it. Scottish opinion poll data also suggests that many Scots just don't believe that the Scottish Parliament has had any effect on their lives.It will also be interesting to see how they continue to finance some of the services set up by those new laws when the Scottish Audit Office is arguing that there is a £3 billion black hole in the Scottish budget. It will be even bigger if the Barnett formula is ever changed. The Jones-Parry report might interest the anoraks but I doubt whether many members of the public will be excited by its publication. A non event I'm afraid when over the past year those in favour of lawmaking powers should have been out there arguing their case and not hiding behind the Commission. As for the 'fog' argument. How many voters understand the effect of European legislation on their lives. If you use the logic of Jones-Parry there should be a directly elected European government to create more transparency. Now that would cause some discussion in Upper Cwmtwrch.
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Will Syr Emyr Jones Parry be sacked for producing a report which highlights the deficiencies of the LCO system and comes out in favour of holding a Referendum for a Welsh Parliament?
(harking back to the sacking of Professor David Nutt)
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Betsan said....
"Powers are devolved based on the say-so and the whim of ministers based in London and are exposed to next to no public debate.
Sir Emyr had our attention. On he went.
If full law-making powers were devolved then it would be much easier to legislate strategically"
There is a Peoples Petition before the Petitions Committee that would introduce public debate and accountability on the provision of higher education. I say introduce because at present it does not exist what did exist was taken away by the assembly.
Therefore I am at a loss at to what all these new powers would achieve, we are banned from any complaint on how our money is spent in higher education presumably they will be banning public complaint on mispent finance in schools and the health service.
Having said that, Stoney has pointed out that as far as the health service is concerned they have started to do that already.
The Petition has been delayed for 2 months while they wait for a reply to a letter to Education Minister Jane Hunt and the Chair of the Enterprise and Learning Committee.
What is going to be revealed will not be anything to shout about concerning the way Wales is governed, higher education provision, and more powers to the assembly.
We have dissatisfied students complaining about being ignored by AM's saying they would be treated with more respect if they were an illegal immigrant.
I am beginning to think that that the delay of the petition is deliberate so it does not prejudice a Yes vote in a referendum, the last thing they want is to be seen to be unable to handle the powers they already have in the public interest.
So lets see how they handle legislation from the people before we the people decide if they should have more power!
#1 02:06am Amid all the rhetoric and jibes about lynch mobs some of us who are lucky enough to have a job or work for themselves need a good nights sleep in order to do a productive days work.
#15 If you are going to compare legalising dangerous drugs as being on a par with legalising the Welsh Assembly then it is an arguable point!
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Benedek at #14 has the rights of it, well said.
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After hearing the sneering, who-do-the-Welsh-think-they-are interview on the BBC's (London) Today programme this morning, there's another good reason to show why the All Wales Convention got it right. Mind you, Sir Emyr - quietly, intellectually but diplomatically (of course) - wiped the floor with them!
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The more I read it the more daft having a referendum at all is. The powers are there and under the current set up are being devolved piecemeal. This isn't a referendum on any constitutional issue it's a referendum on process improvement - strange business.
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The next question is do we waste more public money on an objective that at it's best is only 'obtainable' or spend that scarce commodity on vital front line services for the vulnerable?
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#19. FoDafydd wrote:
"After hearing the sneering, who-do-the-Welsh-think-they-are interview on the BBC's (London) Today programme this morning, there's another good reason to show why the All Wales Convention got it right..."
That's a little unfair on Evan Davies, who conducted the interview, as it is the job of the Today presenters to robustly challenge all their guests, but I do agree that Sir Emyr made a convincing case and made it well.
I'm not sure, however, that the general population has the intellectual capacity to understand and appreciate the benefits that these recommendations, if implemented, would bring, in the face of the inevitably hostile and soundbite-driven campaign that will be fought by those who wish to see Wales remain under the Westminster thumb.
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precisely Dewi_H at #20!
The referendum should have come (like they promised) before the Government of Wales act 2006 was sneaked through :)
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#19
I'm not sure that the tone was a sneering one, FD: to me it was just the typically adversarial 'abrasion-for-abrasion-sake' type of manner adopted by the Today programme. I think it is a pre-requisite for anyone on the Today team, but it's a characteristic which has made me switch off from Radio 4 altogether for a bit. [I now listen to 'Silence FM'. Tune to a station of your choice and switch the power off; very soothing in the morning ;-) ]
I totally agree about the manner of Sir EJP: quiet;y, intellectually, and diplomatically is on the money there for me.
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Radio 4 Today Programme Weds 18 Nov 2009
Sir Emyr Jones Parry, chair of The All Wales Convention
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/listen_again/default.stm 0734
People should listen to what was said and draw their own conclusions on who wiped the floor with who especially on the issue of priority.
Astonishingly he dismissed the poll that says 47% For and 37% Against as it only refers to how people would vote in a referendum. He goes on to say his evidence suggests that there is a clear balance in which says having collective powers all at once is preferable.
What evidence was he referring to and is it as flawed as the Yougov poll?
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"The referendum should have come (like they promised) before the Government of Wales act 2006 was sneaked through :)"
I agree - for fair play I suggest the question should be either:
1) Go with Syr Em
2) Repeal Government of Wales Act 2006
And please could we have a:
3) Independence
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I suspect FoDaffyd is uncomfortable when the march for independence is critically assessed by anyone. Fortunately we Brits are blessed with a critical media which has always put the interests of the little people first... just look how they uncovered the expenses scandal.
In Wales of course, the nationalists would like completely the opposite (and to be honest they're half way there).... only one Plaid controlled tv channel and a couple of papers of a nationalist persuasion that are both owned by the same company anyway. Oh it will be like China in here if the Nationalists get their independence dream :)
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I welcome the Convention's Report.
Wales has been particularly badly served by the Westminster system, which has repeatedly let down the entire UK as well.
Just try to list those things which actually work well - the country is a mess. Someone above (#12) mentioned Edwina Hart in connection with alleged mismanagement of half a billion.
How many hundreds of billions, Stonemason, have been poured down the drain by successive London governments in the last 50 years? This present Labour government wins first prize for making probably the worse mess of any British government for centuries... and there have been several abysmally bad previous administrations, Labour and Tory.
The blame for the failure to devolve legislative powers to Wales must lie at the feet of a handful of Labour MPs who represent Welsh constituencies. These self-serving people have been defending their own seats, pensions and privileges, and not the interests of the people of Wales. They have served Wales badly... look at the state its in today. What have any of them achieved for our country?
How is Wales a better place for the achievements of Paul Murphy and Don Touhig?
Why should we listen to Peter Hain who has saddled the Assembly with an unworkable system, and who wants it to remain in place for the foreseeable future, just to placate his hard-line associates at Westminster?
As I've said previously, I very much doubt whether a referendum will be held. I believe the people of Wales would vote 'Yes', but the deep split in the Labour Party will make the outcome unpredictable.
Even sadder is the fact that were all the powers under the 2006 Act devolved to the Assembly, it would still lag far behind the Scotttish Parliament - which itself is not a very powerful institution - it has very limited tax-raising powers.
#22 Regrettably Wales will remain under the 'Westminster thumb' for the foreseeable future.
It will be interesting to see how IWJ responds. My instinct is that he will sit on his hands and do nothing. Time will tell.
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28 I agree with you that I expect IWJ to sit on his hands - but to be fair, if he pushed too hard too fast, he would risk turning the referendum into a Labour vs Plaid contest. Far better to sit back for now and let Welsh Labour conclude that this is the only way forward - and then let the battle turn into a multi-party Wales versus multi-party Westminster contest.
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Re 22
In reply, I think you may be a bit harsh when you say that the general public doesn't have the intellectual capacity to understand the issues. But you are absolutely right to imply that they will be bombarded with lies, misinformation, scare stories and even more lies by the antis and Brit nats, which will have very little to do with the actual question put before them. Unfortunately this the way with referenda.
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I believe the general public .....
does have the intellectual capacity to understand the issues.
..... though we all have a problem with Welsh politicians and their familiars deceiving the little people, for Fo's benefit the little people are those of us with no political connections, deceit spun for the benefit of a new political class with little regard for democracy, justice, or good governance.
I'm sure the referendum contest will split Wales like it has never been split before, Dewi might get his wish for independence but it would be partition, and as bloody as 1948 India.
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#14 Benedek
Jeepers! Is it really a year down the pan?! If so, am pretty amazed that this wasn't picked upon and trumpeted a bit more beforhand. If it is the case that the referendum doesn't happen before 2011, would that mean the matter and the points raised are effectively shelved?
"To argue that the Assembly can become a full law making body without extra members and therefore have no effect on Welsh representation at Westminster is nonsense. You also can't have full law making powers in my opinion without some form of revenue raising powers to finance those new laws particularly in the present economic climate."
I don't know if I get what you are saying here. The report reckons that the current number of members could handle the workload, so on the surface to me this need not affect the number of Welsh MP's in Westminster...then again though, is representation in Westminster of MP's from Scotland and Wales is subject to review soon in some way?
Cheers,
OwS
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24.Perhaps 'in the money' rather than 'on the money' would be more appropriate.
29.Your naivety is illuminating as always Labour have no intention
of granting a referendum.
Sir Emyr has just admitted he's a 'nationalist' but not affiliated
to a political party so much for 'chairman impartiality'.
No wonder it's got quiet here the NATS and indoctrined youth are all ranting on the Jason Mohammed Show.
Surprising that after being quizzed by researchers we end up with only 'Yes' contribtors.BBC(Wales) bias? How dare I?
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"Dewi might get his wish for independence but it would be partition, and as bloody as 1948 India."
O come on Stoney - why not like Czechoslovakia and friendly and peaceful?
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I think this report gets it right, there is confusion on the powers of the Assembly and the current system is slow and inefficient and puts such a cramp on coherent policy formation that no one would chose it as an option. The reason why we are why we are is that the Labour Party wanted to avoid public splits over the Richard Commission report. The current fudge pleases no one. My chief fear is that the antis will use blatant lies to describe what is on offer and will add to the confusion. I don't think they are capable of engaging in an honest debate on the merits - just prefer scare tactics on independence (which is not on offer).
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33 Funny how when True Wales gang up on a radio call-in it is called representative, but when the pro-Wales majority get their act together and let their views be known then it is called bias......
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#27 comeofit
Your going to run out of 'dodgey' countries to compare Wales too if you carry on :).
The expenses scandal was dealt with well by the press, but not initially, the Independant (probably) paid the guy who leaked the recipts thousands and they then played it out over a few weeks to make as mucch money as they could. I saw an interview where Paksman questioned their editor about the way they broke the story and he struggled to justify himself.
I think there is alot of, 'Thats what I thought', in the reactions to the conventions report. The poll figures seem to fit what most people were expecting. Everyone knows that a referendum will 'probably' come out with a Yes vote, but it's going to be close either way, probably will only a few percent in it. Does seem to be a bit of a waste of time in that regard, although it does highlight alot of the problems with the currents system. The point about not being able to set up policies if there is no garantee of which proposed powers will be granted by Westminister.
Personally I never saw the point of the Assembly if it didn't have full law making powers, without them it's been impotent. Has disillusioned alot of Welsh voters who just see an expensive and pointless talking shop. It should have been an all or nothing deal in the first place, maybe with a timeframe of powers being transfered over a couple of years. As it was, we've had a bit of a shambles really, with very few people actually knowing how the system properly works.
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33 Your wording says it all - Labour have no intention of GRANTING a referendum.
This would be the referendum that is already enshrined in law and has been promised by Labour ??? Or are you saying that Labour is so unprincipled that it will ignore the wishes of the electorate, its own special conference, and the signatures on the coalition agreement???
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#33 thegnatswatter
So someone who comes to a conclusion after much research must be biased if that conclusion points in one definate direction. Particularly if you disagree with that conclusion.
Suggesting he has some underlying motive and has warped the research and report to fit his personal views is beneath you.
The No vote posterss do come out with some random conspiricies, but thats the best one yet.
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#37 Colonicus42
Lol! Oh i've got a few more left up my sleeve! All depends how much the dictator in waiting, Adam "I just missed out on playing for the British Lions" Price comes to the fore in the next few years :)
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Re 33
gnat,
"Sir Emyr has just admitted he's a 'nationalist'" - Good for him! But then, so are you. Where did he say it? He would make an excellent AM, though.
Yesterday, a torrent of antis and Brit nats on Radio Wales was conclusive proof of implacable opposition to further powers; the next, when there seems to be overwhelming support for powers amongst the callers, and it's all been planned by the nasty Plaid! Ah, it's that thing called paranoia again.
So let me get this right. The antis hate the National Assembly as it now is, but what they want to do next... is to keep it just as it is!!!
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38. They renaged on a referendum for 'more powers' after promising one,
introduced the Governance of Wales Act and declined a minority government without a mandate so why would they change their spots to suit Plaid. The biggest problem Labour has is convincing their supporters that they can be trusted under a New Leader after all Rhodri's deceit.
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39. He said it not me. My concern is that the report was evident from
day 1, a 'Yes' vote would be 'obtainable'(not winable as the BBC said) but should not be taken for granted it's cost us £1.3m and a years deliberation to come to that conclusion. I would have preferred to see my MP who was a member of the panel fighting for the social injustice that still blights our constituency rather than wasting his time on constitutional matters that we did not have a say in.
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FoDafydd,
You let yourself down when you label those who you share Wales with who dont support this ill thought through and rushed march towards independence as 'brit nats'. There are many of us... so many in fact that we won one referendum (although I wasnt even born)and drew in the other!
We're just as Welsh as you.
Also,
There was most certainly not overwhelming support for further powers on todays call in... it was 50:50 which is exactly how it should and was manufactured to be (by the production team) on the day that Sir Emyr published a report that said "yes we feel there should be further powers but there is no guarantee that a majority of the welsh public feel that too" A very close run thing.
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"I would have preferred to see my MP who was a member of the panel fighting for the social injustice that still blights our constituency rather than wasting his time on constitutional matters that we did not have a say in."
So you'll be voting Yes then - your MP will then not have to spend so much time on constitutional matters.
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#34 Dewi_H
When you have Dafydd Iwan saying .....
Make sure people understand why we should not be treated as second class citizens.
..... friendly and peaceful are not part of the equation.
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"When you have Dafydd Iwan saying .....
Make sure people understand why we should not be treated as second class citizens."
That's not exactly ".....but it would be partition, and as bloody as 1948 India." Now is it Stoney!!
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42 Are you serious in saying that Labour declined a minority government???
IIRC there were only two choices available at the time and a Labour minority government was not one of them - do you remember the other one???
If Labour renege on the promise (and signed agreement) to a referendum, then they will shortly be in opposition in Cardiff Bay and you know it.
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When Lyn_Thomas at #35 wrote:
My chief fear is ..... independence (which is not on offer).
It is more than on offer, further powers, even limited to the current SCHEDULE 2 Fields of .....
1 Agriculture, forestry, fisheries and food, 2 Ancient monuments and historic buildings. 3 Culture (including museums, galleries and libraries). 4 Economic development. 5 Education and training. 6 The environment. 7 Health and health services. 8 Highways. 9 Housing. 10 Industry. 11 Local government. 12 Social services. 13 Sport and recreation. 14 Tourism. 15 Town and country Planning. 16 Transport. 17 Water and flood defence. 18 The Welsh language.
..... give sufficient scope for the separatists to create such differences that the Union would become untenable, this even though the separatists number an estimated 5% of the population. Currently in Wales there is no effective second chamber to provide constitutional protection against the slide towards independence, for this single reason further powers should be considered more dangerous than the fascism of 20th century Europe, which came close to destroying the United Kingdom.
The three primary political parties know what is happening, safeguards are needed against an insidious plague that is out of step with the 95% majority of Welsh people and the Union. You only need to refer to the vitriol of MP Price to begin to understand the mentality of Plaid, the party of illusionists.
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#47 Dewi_H,
When Dafydd Iwan says .....
Make sure people understand why we should not be treated as second class citizens.
He is a liar, there are no second class citizens in the United Kingdom, if there were politicians at Westminster would be protesting in the extreme.
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I have just come back from the All Wales Convention presentation. All very interesting, once again some people from True Wales tried to say the process was biased, it wasn't. Once again they raise the issue of a minority of the people of Wales voting for and getting enhanced devolution (clue if you don't vote yes or no then we can't tell how or if you want any change). What is interesting, if you care to look at the detail of the report, is that its not the LCO process that was found to be most inefficient, but the lack of democratic scrutiny of framework legislation that convinced them. The actual powers of Welsh Ministers change by the day, that creates a democratic deficit and a lawyers paradise. Preferable that we move to part 4 where (despite there being some exceptions within the 20 fields) there will be clarity. Clarity is needed for democracy to function. The current fog is neither comprehensible or stable - it is a moving platform. That, in legislative terms, makes it very difficult for civic society to engage or know where to direct their resources in influencing and promoting legislation.
Like the Richard Report before it, it clearly states the way forward and disects the current settlement and finds is wanting. What is more it finds it wanting on the evidence given to it by public and private bodies and many individual contributions. I now expect to see the extreme Brit Nats rubbish it and claim its biassed and all a Plaid Plot run by a Plaid controlled BBC and a Plaid Controlled Western Mail/South Wales Echo/Argus/Daily Post.
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Oh yes and it will be a close run thing, in their polling they found amongst those most likely to vote the winning margin is 3% which is within the margin of error on most polling. On the other hand more like 2/3 - 3/4 of people want equality with Scotland. Why the disparity, its because something like 22% of those that would vote no equate full law making power with independence, and although they support a fully empowered legislative National Assembly with the same powers as Scotland they oppose independence. So plenty of scope there for the No side to say its a vote on independence. I think its vital that some body produces a document sent to every home that explains what the current settlement is, what is on offer, and what is not on offer. I would suggest the Electoral Commission produce something along these lines. Then the Yes and No campaign can spin to their hearts' content.
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45.I won't be voting 'yes' because there won't be a referendum.
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Re 44
comeoffit,
It's not a matter of being more or less Welsh, it's a matter of where your loyalty lies, and there's an extreme minority on here who do not even accept that the Welsh are a nation. There's a minority who do not wish to see Wales develop democratically. I Think the description fits.
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LOL Stonemason tell that to all the people who have suffered discrimination in this country over the years and continue to do so. If there are lies being told at the moment its all coming from True Wales, the nationalist conspiracy controlling the Welsh Government is one of them.
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So Fo believes his perverse loyalty to poverty, loyalty to undemocratic principles, loyalty to maintaining a deep self loathing is being Welsh.
You do need to get out Fo, meet real people, meet people who despise Plaid poverty, despise Plaid undemocratic intentions, despise Plaid continually referring to their heritage as serfdom, Plaid the party of extreme intentions.
I listened to Wayne David on today's evening news, the Labour party have something up their sleeve !
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#55 Lyn_Thomas you accuse ......
...... tell that to all the people who have suffered discrimination in this country over the years and continue to do so. ......
Put your money where your mouth is, I say lies ........... except, I understand discrimination is felt by incomers from East of Offa's Dyke, the quiet people bullied by ............. this would be apartheid I believe.
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Sir E. report started with a biased leaning to the yes vote and all this was paid for by the public.This is one Welshborn man that will vote No and hope that the majority of Wales will do the same and end this Cardiff Gravy Train for wanabee politicians.
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56. There'll be no referendum and what's more the Wales Governance guy agrees Rhodri knew it,Peter Hain, Wayne David,Paul Murphy all knew it
watch the body language the only one who didn't now it was IWJ the mug.
FiFofum and Co have been well and truly shafted.Hook line and proverbial
sinker.
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#56 Stonemason
"the Labour party have something up their sleeve !"
How about:
- quantitative easing (printing hundreds of £billions, making our savings and salaries worth less and less and stoking up massive inflation)
- illegal and immoral wars, and the killing of thousands of innocent Iraqi and Afghan civilians, not to mention hundreds of UK troops
- wrecking the economy and the banking system
- allowing millions of illegal immigrants in, and huge numbers of failed asylum seekers to remain
- wanting to spend £20bn renewing Britain's nuclear deterrent
- 'second homes flipping' and other corrupt and immoral practices among its MPs (they're not the only party guilty of such practices)
- overcrowded prisons, dirty hospitals, a nineteenth century railway system and a road system still in the 1950s
- a Secretary of State for Wales who isn't Welsh telling us how we should run our country
- one could go on-and-on about Westminster failures
The Convention's Report, and that of Lord Richard, have pointed unequivocally to the benefits Wales would gain from legislative devolution.
You would have Wales return to its status in the late 1940's before it was even recognised legally as a country - a denial of who and what we are as a people. I can only assume that at heart you are not 'Welsh' even though apparently you live here. You want decisions about how our country is run decided by voters in a handful of marginal constituencies in England and people sent down from London, such as Redwood, Hague, and even Hain (parachuted into Neath) to run Wales like a fiefdom. Wales is in the state its in right now because that's what we've had for far too long.
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Re 56, 57
Stonemason,
We can always depend on you to be the angry voice of extremism, Stoney.
But, it's been a difficult day for you. So I'll forgive you your meaningless rant. When hegemonies begin to crumble, and we move away from the old ways and the old guard (and I know how much you like your old-Etonian toffs holding the reigns of power), people begin to feel uncertain where once there was only certainty. I will also interpret your inability to understand Adam Price's paper as a result of your present fragility.
I can assure you that I shall be out tonight with the good people of Ceredigion, and will raise a glass or two of Felinfoel to Sir Emyr and his good team.
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60. You missed David Hunt you know the Welsh Sec of State the welsh arsonists targeted at his home in Southern England in 1990.
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#58 Good points
I support a No vote simply because of the poor way in which we are governed and your comment on political wannabees sums it up. Nothing to do with being anti Welsh although some would have you believe that it is.
But what scares me the most is that we also have a wannabee opposition who are also on the the gravy train, and will not scrutinise legislation properly for fear of rocking the devolution boat.
That is why all of them ignore complaints from their constituents on anything that brings corruption to light or shows them up to be useless.
When the WAG wants to pass a law saying AM's who ignore there constituents should have to re-stand for election then I might think they are fit to govern.
I said might! They have a lot to do to build up trust with the electorate and i believe there are going to be skeletons pop out of cupboards before a referendum.
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Wow, separatists who .....
..... see no good, hear no good, speak no good .....
..... nothing much has changed in twelve months.
..... except the house of cards is collapsing before our eyes.
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#63 Neocromwellian, it sounds as if you are considering a petition for "Welsh Assembly Recall" legislation.
Try RECALL!, it would get my support.
You need to be careful how it is worded, I believe you would need to ask the Welsh Assembly Government to petition the Westminster government to amend the necessary Government of Wales Act.....
WAG will help with the correct wording if asked nicely.
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What's this from Nick Speed . . .
ITV Wales poll shows 51 per cent would vote YES to more powers for Welsh Assembly, 30 per cent would vote NO... more polling details to come
Hwre!
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All these bizarre findings for more powers seems to go against common sense reality? Welsh Labour, have bragged many times that they were and are the driving force for devolution and compulsory Welsh language lessons. And so they were!! So, why has Welsh Labour, lost vote share more so in Wales, than elsewhere in the UK?
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#65 Thank you Stoney
For those who are interested there is a RECALL process in British Columbia
"A recall is a petition by a registered voter to remove a Member of the Legislative Assembly (MLA) from office. The recall process is unique in Canada - no other province or territory has a system in place for removing elected representatives from office between elections."
This is exactly what we need, if it was in place some people would be conspicuous by their absence from our TV screens!
I will contact the Petitions Committee clerks tomorrow, I am pleased to say they are very helpful. It would need support and we would need to start now.
I think it goes with the referendum process as the people of Wales need to know if their AM's are up to the job, and is something that deserves a Yes vote!
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Re 63
Neo,
You talk of an opposition who:
"...will not scrutinise legislation properly for fear of rocking the devolution boat."
Now, people will probably have realised that I am no fan of the Tories - to say the least! However, it would be interesting if you could be more specific, and dive chapter and verse.
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Re 69
For 'dive' read 'give'!
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Stonemason you seem to have a blinkered view of society and the UK's past. In Wales Welsh Speakers were second class citizens in their own country for centuries, forbidden to communicate with their government in their own language in their own country - only recently changed. Then we had discrimination based on race, gender and sexuality, some of these legally sanctioned. The UK does not have a good record on protecting minority rights, many of which have only been achieved after years of hard campaigning against the teeth of opposition from the conservatives, who have been wrong on every major issue of equality. Don't talk to me about apartheid, something tolerated by conservatives like Mrs Thatcher who did nothing to oppose it. That was real apartheid. You constantly devalue terms with there over and inaccurate usage.
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"Welsh Labour, have bragged many times that they were and are the driving force for devolution and compulsory Welsh language lessons"
Jack - it was the Tories, bless them, who introduced compulsory Welsh.
Stoney - bloodletting like India in 1948 and apartheid in a blog about a technical devolution adjustment??? Try and get some proportion...
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Those who filled in the You Gov poll were also asked who would win the X factor!
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Lyn_Thomas at #71 reverts to history to support the premise that we are a subjected minority in the United Kingdom......
..... at the same time in history the people of Kent with the people of Glamorgan would have been executed for theft, no discrimination, but times have changed, there is little discrimination in the United Kingdom, except there is a purposeful application of employment apartheid in Welsh government and allied organisation.
The government of Wales in the 21st century have been found out, get over it and make changes to remove the apartheid, if you are a democrat, or are you a democrat of convenience, a Plaid attribute.
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#69 FiFyFoFumDafydd wrote
Neo,
You talk of an opposition who:
"...will not scrutinise legislation properly for fear of rocking the devolution boat."
Now, people will probably have realised that I am no fan of the Tories - to say the least! However, it would be interesting if you could be more specific, and dive chapter and verse.
Try reading posts by the Stonemason who raised the issue of 1 Billion being misspent in the health service. Where is the outcry? If it was a hospital run by an NHS trust there would be an army of AM's and MP’s queuing up to be phototographed outside with placards.
The assembly and AM's only critise those for which they have no direct responsibility, with regard to the responsibilities they do have they either obstruct any inquiry or place it in the hands of an unelected Quango and then claim they do not have jurisdiction to intervene.
It raises the question who runs the country and the answer is the forces of colonial self interest supported by Plaid who want to take over their power in an independent Wales. The assembly simply does as its told by vested interests in order for Llafur to stay in power and provide a smoke screen of language and culture to fob people off.
As with any transition of this sort the people need to be kept under control to prevent anarchy and to quote Napoleon “Religion is excellent stuff for keeping the common people quiet” I am sure they will be amply rewarded in return.
Going back in time where was the opposition to the extra funding for universities when they also banned public complaint and removed powers of intervention by the Auditor General under the Public Audit (Wales) Act 2004. That led to the financial collapse of the University of Wales Lampeter.
Regarding students loans there are student’s blogging that they would receive more respect from AM’s if they were illegal immigrants as their complaints are simply ignored.
Where were the Tories when it came to pointing out that the University of Wales refuses to have a complaints procedure despite the right of students to complain under the Higher Education Act 2004.
Why has it been left to a peoples petition to try and ensure that those responsible for the financial collapse of Lampeter are held to account.
Financial responsability for higher education was taken out of the hands of the Welsh Audit Office and given to the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales (HEFCW) in a Memorandum of Understanding with the WAG.
HEFCW is now desperately trying to prevent the publication of the Haines Watts report into the finances of the Universitof Wales Lampeter. They claim publication would lead to the collapse of the merger with Trinity University College; it would also reveal their own incompetence and failure to safeguard our money.
HEFCW can no longer guarantee value for money in higher educucatation as they unlike their English counterpart HEFCE will not be the regulator under the Charity Act 2006. That task will be undertaken by the Charity Commission itself which is totally independent of government. In effect our Universities are going to be regulated by the Charity Commission to fill the vacuum of failure by the WAG and Assembly.
So what is Professor Nick Bourne who just happens to be my area representative doing about this, the answer is nothing, you get a bit of lip service and you are then ignored. Having said that this is not true of all my AM’s; some just ignore you.
I cannot believe that anybody would celebrate giving more powers to this bunch of self serving political wannabees when they misuse the ones they already have; unless of course there is something in it in for you?
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#69
We need reform not more powers.
In that respect the appauling abuse of the public appointments system giving jobs for the boys and girls still goes on.
The problem is that like MP's and AM's expenses it is within the rules and therefore we need new rules to abolish Quangos and make our services more accountable to the common people.
What we need is real change and not your boys and your girls replacing the old boys and old girls in positions of social control.
It would be unfair to ask where are the Tories because there is this concensus between all parties not to rock the devolution boat or spill the gravy train.
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Re 75
Nice to see you having some playground style fun with my name! Bless.
And then - mainly because you launch into another of those now famous rants by the antis and Brit nats - you make a mess of your response! Who was it who spotted the problem with NHS spending? An Assembly committee. Another example of not letting the truth get in the way of fantasy.
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A few notes of caution on the 1 billion claimed miss spend. I have yet to see any verification that it is actually occurring - secondly is this unique to Wales? I it has been suggested this is mainly an issue of bed blocking, in which case the fault may mainly lie with the lack of social care facilities from local government. I think this needs to be examined but I don't think this is the smoking gun some seem to suggest.
Stonemason there is no apartheid in Wales and no discrimination imposed on people moving to Wales from England. Your consistent use of provocative language and your lies regarding this just shows you to be a person with no regard to the harm you do when trying to inflame the debate. Suggestions that voting yes will cause bloodshed is shameful.
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#77 How patronising of you to say so.
You asked the question, but clearly did not like the answer because it was factual and true.
Who are the antis and Brit Nats?
Do you mean those of all nationalities and cultures who want more open and accountable government?
When are you people going to learn some tolerence?
#78 "A few notes of caution on the 1 billion claimed miss spend. I have yet to see any verification that it is actually occurring"
We do not have any verification because the Health Minister refused any sort of inquiry!
#65 Stoney the Petition
I have submitted an E-Petition, and will publish the details when I have clarified the exact wording with the clerks. The additional information is as follows and maybe amended.
"The proposed Recall of MP's for abusing their expenses does not go far enough, new rules and regulations may mean such a measure may not be necessary.
What is needed is a measure to address growing public discontent with elected representatives ignoring the issues raised by their constituents.
The result is that they may turn to more extremist parties, as they are the only ones who will listen or act upon their complaints. Worse still the public may feel that direct action and confrontation is the only way to draw attention to injustice and abuse of power by public funded institutions.
A Recall for AM’s needs to include a system whereby correspondence and records of meetings between constituents and AM’s are maintained for future accountability.
This in turn will incur an expenditure that needs to be closely monitored. Issues that arise that are outside the jurisdiction of the Assembly should be published for future requests for LCO’s to bring about reform and positive social change."
This is not yet cast in stone so any comments would be welcome.
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Why should the taxpayers of Wales use caution when hard earned wages are miss-spent, particularly when those responsible say No to investigating the reasons. Who exactly are you trying to protect Lyn_Thomas, certainly not democracy.
The expression I used was .....
.... as bloody as 1948 India
..... try reading comments properly, that particular partition to this day has not run its profound course, and is as violent as 60 years ago, the sentiments in Wales though not the same are similar, a minority wishing to split a country, and you think it will be peaceful, human nature says no.
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Wise up, Neanderthals; there will be a referendum next year and it will be won. Why? Because the Tories will be in power in London; more people will understand the ludicrous LCO system; and the Scots will be voting on independence.
But this referendum will be very divisive for Labour. Check out: http://www.welshtimes.eu/politics.html.
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"...try reading comments properly, that particular partition to this day has not run its profound course, and is as violent as 60 years ago"
Try making sense - never mind the ridiculous contect of your original absurd statement is that particular conflict as violent as it was 60 years ago?? Really?
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£1.3 million? What were they doing for £1.3 million? I would love to know what the breakdown in costs was. Goodness, that’s over 40p each. Are the people of Wales going to get their 40p’s worth?
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Re 82
Ignore him, Dewi. They're worried, and they're just lashing out. Sad but predictable. It does of course make any kind of sensible debate pretty much impossible. I suspect that is what they want.
It does rather prove Adam Price's point though, doesn't it?
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One example of the ethnic violence in the Indian subcontinent .....
In early 1990, local Urdu newspapers Aftab and Al Safa called upon Kashmiris to wage jihad against India and ordered the expulsion of all Hindus choosing to remain in Kashmir. ... Since March 1990, estimates of between 250,000 to 300,000 pandits have migrated outside Kashmir, violent enough for you .....
Sectarian Violence in Pakistan is as prolific and deadly as in India, since 1989 there have been almost 2000 incidents.
The point is Dewi, you represent a very minority opinion, so few want independence it is laughable, except, while the comic dispossessed of Wales continue their quest for partition, there is little time for serious politics in the Principality. In fact without Plaid Wales would be far more progressive, at the moment all legislation supported by Plaid requires additional scrutiny to determine whether it might support their stated intention of splitting off from the United Kingdom as a, nearly communist, Socialist Republic dominated by a politburo.
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85 SM - Take a chill pill - some of your recent comments are bordering on Psychotic.....
ps what happened to your petition???
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Just returned home from Northampton and amazingly life continuing quite well in county,with my daughter-in law getting immediate appointment for grandson with doctor and all without over arching "democratic" body seeking to set Northampton free from UK. The decision of Sir Emyr's committee was about as certain as Christmas day comes on 25th December each year. The NATS and fellow travellers in media/law/bodies needing funding from WAG have never stopped complaining about original devolution settlement since Her Gracious Majest signed the Act into being. I personally have no great objections to Assembly being given more powers in principle,however it must surely be on the basis of evidence that they have made good fist of current powers and level of public expenditure kindly supplied by english taxpayers. If the report on NHS in Wales is accurate then the structural imbalances in provision of services is a "disgrace",however the Minister and possible First Minister just ignores report because it would case political/public outcry to put things right. The part of report that refers to "ordinary" peoples perceptions/understanding is a "joke" as what do we understand about European Law/Treat obligation re NATO etc etc. If you read reports/comments by independant economists of repute the coming 10 years of public sector reductions in income/employment are going to force the killing of "sacred cows" in wales and I would have thought they would have enough work with current/future problems. The wider concern is that even if they get more powers in near future and that does not creat "paradise" in this poor part of UK,then the NATS and fellow travels,particularly in media/welsh language circles will be "at it" in 5 years demanding more powers until in the end the english (who have no great love for4 celts any way) will send us of into the sunset with only our own income to live on. As JACK stated recently there is undeclared "civil" war going on between the NATS and us english only speaking welshpeople,but we wont be getting on the trains without a fight of that they can be sure!!
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#86 No psychosis here, still not heard anything back from Assembly, I don't know why its taking so long to approve the wording as it is based on an example I have from elsewhere. My guess is someone is constructing a refusal, difficult for them, as all it asks is for WAG to petition Westminster on the petition supporters behalf because Westminster holds the GOWA in its remit.
It has been a month tomorrow, how long did yours take to be refused ?
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"In early 1990, local Urdu newspapers Aftab and Al Safa called upon Kashmiris to wage jihad against India and ordered the expulsion of all Hindus choosing to remain in Kashmir. ... Since March 1990, estimates of between 250,000 to 300,000 pandits have migrated outside Kashmir, violent enough for you ....."
Yes Stoney the Kashmir situation is terrible but "as bolldy as 1948 India" whwn between 500,000 and a million died and 14 million people displaced. - No.Quite.True.
"The point is Dewi, you represent a very minority opinion" - Agreed it's a minority opinion - it's our job to persuade others in a peaceful and democratic fashion...
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Some here seem to want violence - why I don't know other than to create a climate of fear where none exists, talk of a civil war being waged now, I think some people here need to consult a doctor!
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85. Stonemason.
Funny you should say that about a nearly Communist republic. There was a teacher at my school, his name was Gareth Miles. In his spare time he was writing a manifesto and road map towards A National Socialist Republic in Wales.
He was very influential and always saw the "Language" as a way of enhancing national awareness in the Marxist-Leninist struggle against English Colonialism.
The Communist links still remain in organisations like Cymru-Cuba (Cymdeithas yr Iaith are members).
What sticks in my mind about Gareth Miles' road map was his emphasis on a gradual move towards independence by small incremental steps, always keeping a Welsh Language elite as a spearhead.
I don't believe Plaid/Cym.Gym. have ever deviated from this path.
Gareth Miles remains a respected writer and dramatist.
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#90
I think some people here need to consult a doctor!
I agree!
I have been worried about FiFyFoFumDafydd for sometime, he seems to lash out at Welsh people who want open and accountable government, apart form anything else he seems to be going through some kind of identity crises.
Lets hope he gets well soon.
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#90 Lyn_Thomas, the Unionists do not want violence, we have had enough of that in the past, protecting the Plaid objectors, but when you refer to ...... a civil war being waged now, it is probably the only truth to have been tapped on your keyboard for many a month at Betsan's blog.
SEDWOT, you have hit the nail on the head, the true Plaid colours are not the yellow and green, it is as red as the 19th century Soviet Union before it broke free of tyranny.....
.... your reference to Gareth Miles' road map ..... always keeping a Welsh Language elite as a spearhead, is replicated in the WAG web at the language link, where it is written .....
We believe strongly that Wales’s history, culture and social fabric are inextricably linked to the Welsh language. The Welsh Assembly Government has a statutory duty to support Welsh and promote its use. Our aim is to deliver a truly bilingual nation.
This is evidence of the small incremental steps being promoted by the Welsh government at the expense of the truth, the statement above denies any cultural, historical and social fabric linked to those who speak English.
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Correction at #93 ......
the 19th century Soviet Union
should read
the 20th century Soviet Union
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90. I referred to a welsh "civil" war in the context of the vast majority of welsh people being relatively happy with current conditions in total,but pretty apathetic and a welsh "establishment" who are hell bent on forcing wales into isolation. The people on this blog who are in the first category are openly and fundamentally opposed to the "welshyfying" of wales and the lack of political heavyweights who stand up for our lawful concerns. The NATS are everywhere in the media,sitting on committees,creating concerns about welsh language,hatred and untruths about our position in UK,and without the energies of people on this blog and elsewhere they would give a totally distorted position of opinions in wales. It is a sad fact that the most able young people will in the majority have to leave this region for employment,except for those lucky enough to be on the welsh language jamboree,which is in itself funded by taxation from outside wales. You only have to walk around your local town about 10.00 in the morning and see the "drones",who clearly have no intention of moving to other parts of UK where there is
work. There is a complete distortion being peddled that wales can generate enough employment for its young people and they need to be given better education in areas where there is work,rather than fostering semi literate welsh speakers who are looked down upon by proper welsh speakers who have their nests well funded in S4C etc etc. Giving more powers to the "third raters" down Bay is a complete diversion from the economic realities thats going to hit us like an avalanche in coming years. I can assure you that the people who are opposed to more powers at present will be much better organized this time when the referendum is called.
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Re 91, 93
I actually know Gareth Miles, and I can hear him laugh from here in Cerdigion as he reads:
"He was very influential" !!!
Re 95
Igotitallwrongsorry yet again shows very clearly in his usual dense prose that he is probably the most paranoid of the BRIT NATS that frequent this blog.
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Interesting to read that without Labours money and organisation skills
a 'yes' vote in 1997 would not have been secured. I thought from this blog that FiFoFum and his Cronies had won the day?
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It was a genuine cross party organisation and many in Labour supported the campaign, some sat on their hands and did nothing and some campaigned against. In many areas the people pushing leaflets etc were Plaid or Lib Dem only. However Labour organisation is a bit of a shambles at the moment, I think any coherent yes campaign will be much more of a genuinely cross party organisation with all four major party leaderships being fully in favour and most of the membership of three (the conservatives being the minority) being behind it. No evidence that Labour party members are anti on the whole, quite the opposite.
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98. How do you know that were you in Carmarthen then? Are you in the Labour party now? Your so full of it Lyn and you wonder why nobody wants to debate with you?
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Re 99
Whereas you're full of charm!!! Scared of the future and the people, I suppose.
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#100
Not scared of any future, just do not want your future of centrally controlling government interfering with every aspect of our lives, and of course an imposed manufactured social fabric.
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Re 72
Dewi_H wrote.
Jack - it was the Tories, bless them, who introduced compulsory Welsh.
The Conservatives did order compulsory Welsh Language lessons, but only where Welsh was widely spoke. Most of Wales was exempt, even where it was compulsory it was never pushed vigorously. In fact compulsion was quietly dropped in all areas, Rod Richards was at first in favour of compulsory lessons, but like others found such lessons were counter productive. The Conservative were completely against the compulsory welsh lessons ordered by the assembly.
David Davies, the Conservative MP for Monmouthshire, whilst he was an AM, requested on several occasions that Monmouthshire pupils be exempt from compulsory Welsh lessons, as it is for them a completely alien tongue. John Griffiths Llafur AM for Newport east responded to one such request.....''It's because of the fact that the standard ofWelsh is so dreadful in Monmouthshire's schools. And considering the increasing importance of the language, Welsh lessons must not be dropped but intensified''
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Re 101
I was actually talking to the gnat there; but it's nice of you to confirm that you're a neo-con. Why have you removed the incriminating evidence from your own site then? What are you scared of?
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No I wasn't in Carmarthen but Labour members voted for the One Wales agreement in the conference, and all polling shows a majority of Labour members in favour of devolution.
As for compulsory Welsh lessons Jack is wrong the tories made it part of the national curriculum in Wales and made it compulsory throughout Wales.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/434738.stm
And earlier this year, the Conservatives sparked a row when their leader in Wales at the time, Rod Richards, himself a Welsh speaker, denounced the policy of compulsory Welsh which he had earlier supported when he was a Welsh Office minister.
He said he had changed his mind and now thought that making the subject compulsory was counter-productive.
By the Way,that exchange between David Davies and John Griffiths was televised on S4C, it happened. BBC, could you check this before posting my post? If compulsory Welsh lessons were in force throughout Wales, why would David Davies make his request to the Welsh assembly?
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Lyn
If you were a member of the Labour Party, you'd know that it was an absolute nonsense to say that Labour 'members' voted for the coalition.
It was the undemocratic Electoral College that gave Plaid its first taste of real power.
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#103 FoDafydd, ..... I didn't remove anything incriminating, that implies law breaking, as you wrote .....
Why have you removed the incriminating evidence from your own site then? What are you scared of?
I did simplify matters to help you and yours understand that small government is not specific to departments or functions of government, it is a philosophy that supports democracy. A political methodology where the lowest level is deemed a better place for decision making, for those with poor understanding of logic it doesn't exclude any function, but pushes down as far as possible the decision making process.
A coalition government following an election is both undemocratic and dishonest, where the largest group of representatives is too small to govern then a second election should take place where the coalition stands as a political group with an agreement for all to see. I would add that such an event is not necessary as demonstrated in Scotland where a minority government is able to function through consensus, although I wouldn't cross the road to douse Salmond ablaze, I think what has followed in Edinburgh is a good example of how politics might go forward particularly without the odour of extreme nationalism.
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Re 107
"..... I didn't remove anything incriminating, that implies law breaking"
That just shows a lack of understanding of the English language, I'm afraid.
What is wholly undemocratic is the Westminster way, where Thatcher, on a minority of the votes was allowed to govern in her own particularly nasty neo-con way (which is why you liked her so much) with minority support from the electorate.
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True Wales has made quite a profound statement on their new website .....
quote from the last paragraph of .....
The All Wales Convention (AWC)Comes Out of the Closet
........ given this list of objectives, the Convention [AWC] saw fit to answer a completely different questions, exposing itself as the publicly funded 'yes' campaign that we have always suspected it to be.
This biased position of the AWC will require a fully audited set of accounts to be submitted to the Electoral Commission I believe, to be set against the forthcoming referendum campaigns, can the "No" vote now expect twelve months and £1 million plus to start its campaign ? How will the electorate respond to the "undemocratic" actions of the Plaid / Labour coalition in its social engineering exercise I wonder.
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I still admire many things that she did, but I also admire Beveridge, he saved my life twice, philosophically that is, also Bevan who drove the NHS into existence, and there are many others from all parts of the world; I'm afraid you and yours have no great people amongst its lists, only those who would destroy a country ...............
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Re 110
I'll respond to this, as it is more or less relevant to Betsan's thread. But, once again, it's a nonsense answer that you give. Once again, you refuse absolutely the point being made. I was pointing out just how undemocratic the Westminster system is, when someone like Thatcher is allowed to govern us in what was, in my opinion, an odious way for so long with minority support.
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The Right Honourable The Baroness Thatcher was Prime Minister from 1979 to 1990, eleven years, during that time I do not remember a revolution that denied the people of the UK the vote, she was voted into power three times. During her period of governance GDP increased by %23.3, Total government spending increased by %12.9, Law and order increased by %53.3, Employment and training increased by %33.3, Health increased by %31.8, Social security increased by %31.8, and if Scargill and the miners hadn't decided they should be governing the country even more could have been achieved.
But there you have it, the undemocratic wanted to be boss ........... except she wouldn't move over for the undemocratic rabble.
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Re 112
We're still, more or less relevant to Betsan's thread, so I'll respond.
Why do you refuse to respond to other people's arguments and questions? We could discuss Thatcher for a long time, and we would never agree. However, the point here is that she governed for a long time, always with MINORITY support. Making a vacuous remark that no one was denied a vote is just ridiculous, and once again shows a lack of moral courage on your part to debate properly.
I was responding directly to your argument, a bit of decency and courage on your part wouldn't go amiss.
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I have to go out shortly .....
..... you and others on your side of the separatist fence have repeatedly supported the minority win at the last referendum as being legitimate, In Edinburgh there is a minority government, MT governed well though not to your liking, if she had upset sufficient numbers of the electorate the Lady in question would have been voted out of office, as it is, and as you have frequently reminded me, the "YES" abstainers kept her in power.
The Lady was in power because there was insufficient opposition from the electorate, this same electorate was also sick and tired of the unelected rabble dictating policy, or trying to, she was in power because insufficient people opposed her policies.
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Re 114
She was kept power in by an undemocratic first past the post system - and a minority of the electorate. In the Referendum, all votes were equal. So you are wrong.
There was quite enough opposition to Thatcher and her heartless monetarism.
But now the Convention gives us the chance of enhancing the democratic mechanisms of national Welsh government, with a fair voting system. Brilliant.
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Stonemason, True Wales wouldn't know the truth if it fell over it. It was not a yes campaign and requests for a million of public money to push for a no vote is absurd. It knows that, you know that, to say it was a yes campaign is a complete lie, are you saying that its chair was a liar when he specifically refuted that allegation?
Notonationalism where is your evidence that there is a majority of Labour Party members against devolution or the One Wales coalition? Please produce some.
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