The big deal
It was always likely to happen but all the same let's note the day the sharp elbows truly came out in the race to succeed Rhodri Morgan.
Yesterday the Carwyn Jones campaign put out a press release to be made public this morning. "TIME TO LEAD - POWER MEANS RESPONSIBILITY" said the headline. So far, so the usual attempt at the weekend to look full of ideas and get reported. But hang on and read on.
"Carwyn is the only candidate in the election to link constitutional reform directly to improvements in public service delivery, saying the people of Wales may want more devolution but they also want politicians to do better when it comes to improving their services".
Who's the Minister in charge of public service delivery? Who rarely has a conversation that doesn't, at some point, contain the words "public service delivery?" Ah yes, of course, the man who is also the real power behind Edwina Hart's campaign.
Keep reading.
"Our current structures of governance in the public service - in local authorities and health services for example - must be platforms for delivery, not stand-alone empires. Otherwise the people will demand more radical change."
The structures of governance in the health service? Another direct hit. Followed by this line:
"Carwyn is set to challenge current Welsh Assembly Government thinking on public service delivery".
In other words Carwyn Jones is set to challenge what Andrew Davies and the Welsh Assembly Government - in other words the Cabinet in which he has a role - has been doing for the past few years.
There was, we gather, fury from the Finance Minister. Was there not, he wondered out loud, "such a thing as collective cabinet responsibility?" Backbench AM and leadership contender Huw Lewis can vote against the government on its plans for a badger cull but don't forget that the hand being played by Carwyn Jones is quite different.
A matter of hours later, a correction was issued. He was no longer "set to challenge current Welsh Assembly Government thinking on public service delivery" after all. Instead "Carwyn is seeking to set a new direction for future Government thinking on public service delivery." There is, of course, no difference in his plans. The sole difference is the rather smarter form of words.
But let's get back to that thought about power and responsibility and a passage in the press release that's creating waves in Plaid circles. It deserves scrutiny - I'll quote it in full.
"Labour delivered devolution. I was proud to campaign for a yes vote in 1997 as secretary of 'Bridgend Says Yes'. In the 2006 Government of Wales Act, Labour delivered the framework for the Assembly to have law-making powers if backed by the people in a referendum.
"I have always been committed to further law-making powers for Wales.
"I am totally committed to what was agreed in 'One Wales' but that should in no way preclude my responsibility, if elected Leader, to consult within the wider Party on the findings and recommendations of the All Wales Convention.
"But consideration of the Convention's report must not be a matter solely for AMs to decide - it must involve the entire Labour movement in Wales, AMs, MPs, grassroots members and trade unions.
"I will campaign for a Yes vote when the referendum is called, but we need a united Labour Party for a victory."
So have we been asking the wrong question? I've not been alone in wondering which First Minister would take a decision on whether to go for a referendum or not - the outgoing one or the brand new one? Carwyn Jones seems to be saying here that if he's elected, it will be neither. The decision will be in the hands of the Labour movement in Wales.
How would it be involved? By which mechansim? A re-run of the Special Conference that gave its blessing to the coalition and its current policy on a referendum? He doesn't say but here it is, a cast iron guarantee - to use the language of the moment - that the decision won't simply be made by the new First Minister and the Labour group in the National Assembly.
Edwina Hart says Carwyn Jones has been peeking at her hymn sheet:
"I have made it quite clear at hustings meetings during the campaign that I would want to consult the party about the referendum process once we knew the outcome of the All Wales Convention. I have also made it clear that we need much wider consultaion with the party on issues generally. Clearly Carwyn is in agreement with me."
And Huw Lewis? His priority, he makes clear, is taking on the Tories at the General Election, no matter what the Convention says about a referendum.
But look at this:
"With regards to involving the entire Labour family in any referendum campaign, of course. Unity of purpose is paramount to the Labour movement - but it is my recollection that a decision has been made on this, involving all sections of the party and affiliates, at the time of the special conference."
There are senior Plaid voices now saying exactly the same thing and in no uncertain terms - that the deal on where the parties stood on a referendum was signed, sealed and delivered back in 2007.
Walking away from that agreement could be, in the words of one Plaid voice, "a deal-breaker".
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~45~RS~)
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Where he says .....
... "I am totally committed to what was agreed in 'One Wales' but that should in no way preclude my responsibility, if elected Leader, to consult within the wider Party on the findings and recommendations of the All Wales Convention.
..... he doesn't say exactly how long this consultation might take, if he was a democratic he might widen the field to get a true picture rather than the myopic vision of Sir Emyr Jones Parry and chums.
I have a vision much like ....
"Rumpelstiltskin, who in his rage drove his right foot so far into the ground that it sank in up to his waist; then in a passion he seized the left foot with both hands and tore himself in two."
.... but there is no Welsh Rumpelstiltskin, only the "One Wales" agreement that was created by very similar creatures that has subsequently been tearing apart Carwyn Jones Labour Party.
A message to Carwyn Jones, devolution is not a problem, Plaid is.
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Plaid has had a taste of government. I think that they would like to see the coalition with Labour fall apart over the question of a referendum in the near future; it would leave them free to campaign without the baggage of being labour's partners.
Was there ever a worse deal than this coalition? Labour may have seen it as a way of staying in power but plaid have taken credit for everything good that has happened and no responsibility for the hard choices made by a government in power.
Ther was a quote about it being better to have someone inside the tent p----ing out than than outside the tent p---ing in. Labour has uniquely contrived to have Plaid liberally spraying their fellow campers from within the tent.
Whatever or whenever there is no evidence that a referendum would fail to deliver further powers to the Assembly government.
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Regrettably I take a different view. From the outset I saw the deal made by Plaid with Labour as a bad one. I have no crystal ball, but I can't see a referendum taking place even if the Commission reports in its favour. Labour will not be united in any campaign, large sections of the party, particularly among its MPs, will campaign vociferously for a 'No' vote - mainly out of self-interest. They will not have the interests of the people of Wales at heart.
The noises coming from the Welsh Labour leadership candidates are a further warning to Plaid. IWO should have ditched the agreement long since, but I never expected him to do so, as I feel he doesn't have the political nouse to see the mess into which he has led his party. There have been plenty of warnings that Labour will renege on its commitments. The fiasco over the Plaid nominees for the Lords was just one of them.
Plaid is now in a difficult position. It has supported a Labour party which has failed not only the people of Wales, but of the entire UK, and disastrously at that. Labour is headed for the political wilderness, and deservedly so, having betrayed the very class of people which brought it into existence. It will be the Tories, not Plaid which will reap the benefits of the misjudgements made by the Plaid leadership in the last three years.
I'm truly saddened by this analysis because I want to see Wales become a prosperous self-governing nation, not saddled with the backward-looking and failed governments of the UK.
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There is only 'one true way' to decide if we want a prosperous self governing Wales and that is to put it to the whole of Wales not a self-serving political cadre, as alluded by others who have self preservation of their power at their hearts.
Do the right thing and dissolve the assembly, campaign on your belief in a more prosperous self governing Wales or not as may be the case in a manifesto for all of Wales, then let's see what the people of Wales want, a mandate will be given by the people.
That will be democracy at work, not back room stitch ups.
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Seems like Plaid will be disappointed - Two FM candidates want to discuss the matter with the party, - the third considers taking on the Tories at the General Election is the priority.
Considering the whole matter has to get two thirds support in the Assembly and be passed by both houses in Westminster, a Referendum before May 2010 seems difficult to say the least.
The sooner we in Wales get a chance to speak on this matter the better - just a pity the question is unlikely to give the choice many of us want.
So Betsan;
There are senior Plaid voices now saying exactly the same thing and in no uncertain terms - that the deal on where the parties stood on a referendum was signed, sealed and delivered back in 2007.
Walking away from that agreement could be, in the words of one Plaid voice, "a deal-breaker".
Have any of the three potential FM's got what it takes to stand up to Plaid - and if they do and Plaid walks away - what then.
Looking at Welsh Polling results, Labour and Plaid seem likely to hold the balance of power in the Assembly for the foreseeable future.
I can't believe Plaid will risk its hold on power over this issue - too much at stake, they will never get enough support in Wales to govern in their own right. The only hope is on Labours coat tails.
Is a renegotiated "One Wales Agreement" possible, This may be the point at which Labour reclaims its dominance in the partnership.
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This is good news
"Carwyn is seeking to set a new direction for future Government thinking on public service delivery."
He should look at the recent initiative by Peter Mandleson with regard to Universities leading the way to economic recovery.
Not only will this bring an end to serfdom with regard to higher education funding and accountability it will also stimulate the economy.
But most importantly it will bring power to the people and away from the forces of conservatism and colonial self interest.
Lets hope the other candidates also adopt this stance so we can support whoever wins in the interests of the people of Wales.
#2 Said
"Was there ever a worse deal than this coalition? Labour may have seen it as a way of staying in power but plaid have taken credit for everything good that has happened and no responsibility for the hard choices made by a government in power."
This is absolutely true, and if Carwyn or whoever wins breaks the agreement they and Labour would regain my vote.
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Carwyn's commitment to consulting with the party is welcome but the Labour Party will not be able to campaign as a united body on this issue. In addition, after the Special Conference on the coalition, a lot of us have lost trust in the Party's consultation processes. It would be sensible of the leadership contenders to announce that they will leave members free to campaign on either side of the debate. What is to be lost? After all, every single one of the main parties in Wales will be campaigning for a 'Yes' vote. What will the campaign be like if the only debate is along party political lines and grassroots arguments are shut out?
The referendum would be a sham and the new 'parliament' would never be able to shake off questions about its legitimacy.
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John Dixon, currently National Chair of Plaid Cymru, writes two important sentences referring to the Labour Party leadership contest in his blog .....
First ... What we all need to bear in mind, as I've said before, is not what candidates in a leadership race say, but what members of the cabinet do when the issue comes before them in due course.
What he means is "the party members will have no influence in the proceedings once the leadership elections are over".
Second ... "I remain entirely confident that both parties understand exactly what they agreed to - and will honour their agreement."
What he means is "the party members will have no influence in the proceedings once the leadership elections are over".
..... but there is an issue, Plaid doesn't favour Huw Lewis who is on record as saying
"........ attendees were very interested by how governance would change in Wales if I’m successful ..... !"
I keep going back to Huw's words governance would change in Wales . Not words to bind him to Labours coalition partners, words that could very well bring the Labour "discontents" back to the polling booths, particularly if he continues to listen to their fears.
Is Plaid Cymru rattled by the proceedings? You bet, they didn't realise the coalition pole had been greased so well. Is this how Rhodri planned events ????
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Stonemason, party members have already voted for the referendum, both Plaid and Labour had events where the One Wales Agreement was approved, as the referendum was part of it. Now if Labour want to break the agreement then that doesn't bode well for the future. Given that we have a more proportional electoral system than is used in the UK parliament coalitions will be the norm. If one party enters a coalition on an agreed platform, agreed by members of all parties involved, and then breaks its commitment what trust can we have in that party? I do not doubt for a second that Labour will approve a referendum, its just the timing that is in contention. Its clear from all polling that the Welsh public believe that the National Assembly should be more powerful than it is now, the anti devolutionists are firmly in the minority. Not that it stops them spouting nonsense and trying to represent themselves as the majority. Stonemason what you are doing is what in other circles is called stirring.
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Lyn
It is clear that the land you live in has a veritable cornucopia of cuckoos and clouds. The Labour Party decision was a stitch-up and there are very few grassroots members who accept the outcome achieved at indecent speed through the unions and a skewed electoral college system.
The Labour leadership hustings are exposing this sense of deep dissatisfaction at the coalition with the nationalists. Why else would Carwyn be saying that he wants to consult with members before going for a referendum for further powers?
Furthermore, did you hear the discourteous reception of the Haka at today's rugby match? The jingoism and obsession with national identity that has been pushed since 1997 has made us a hostile, unpleasant nation. At these moments, it is difficult not to be ashamed to be Welsh.
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Notonationalism.
Furthermore, did you hear the discourteous reception of the Haka at today's rugby match? The jingoism and obsession with national identity that has been pushed since 1997 has made us a hostile, unpleasant nation. At these moments, it is difficult not to be ashamed to be Welsh.
Absolutely agree, and to think all this nationalistic often anti-English gob shite, comes from a sub-sect of Irish-Welsh Celts playing peek-boo, behind the comforting skirts of what many thought was a British political party!!....Welcome to Rhodri's Explicitly Welsh Patriotic Party!!
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I suspect that the Labour leadership contenders have been 'out and about' among the Welsh grassroots, much more perhaps than previously during the last ten years.
They may have noticed the deep unhappiness felt by Labour supporters about the tribalism now pervading our lovely country, the denigration of anything 'English',even though most of us are descendants of English men and women who came here during the industrial revolution and contributed so much to Wales. There is also resentment that Rhodri Morgan signed Labour members up to campaigning for a 'Yes' vote in the promised referendum.
This contact with grassroots may serve to remind our elected representatives that they cannot ignore vast swathes of members.
We have lived together, people of North and South Wales, respecting each others differences for many years, but I'm afraid that since the inception of the National Assembly, we are all expected to conform to one version of 'Welshness'. Should we complain, we are taunted to, 'go and live over the border'. It is to be hoped that the new leader will reverse this trend, otherwise we risk storing up countless problems for the future.
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Betsan have you read the news today:
Labour hit by poll cash crisis.
Labour is facing an election crisis after being banned from spending extra money on campaigning. The party has been forced to make drastic cutbacks after expected donations failed to materialise.
It is under strict orders from its banks not to increase spending, despite the looming general election.
Labour MPs defending marginal seats complain they have been “fobbed off” with “DIY tool kits” to make their own campaigning materials and have received no other support from party headquarters because of the cash crisis.
NuLabour are on the way down the plug hole. The only question that remains is how much of a wreckage the Labour Party will be left.
Roll On 2010
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#7 Said
"In addition, after the Special Conference on the coalition, a lot of us have lost trust in the Party's consultation processes." and "The Labour Party decision was a stitch-up and there are very few grassroots members who accept the outcome achieved at indecent speed through the unions and a skewed electoral college system."
That is how it comes across to former Labour supporters like myself, that everything in government is a stitch up so individuals can stay in power at the expense of selling out the party and the people who put them in power.
RE the Haka
People should read the comments on the blog about culture and perceptions, http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/betsanpowys/2009/11/cultural_understanding.html#comments
"You are confident that you won't have people standing outside the theatre with placards which many of your actors and writers won't be able to read, protesting about the fact that it's all in English?"
The whole world saw the reality, its a matter of showing respect for other peoples culture, presumably they were protesting about the Haka was said in Maori, and if the Kiwis did a Welsh language version of the there would not have been a problem.
I am afraid the One Wales is leading to
One Culture,
One Language,
One Opinion
One Education
One Political party
One Vote!
I left out the word Agreement as reasonable people irrespective of the origins need to take control.
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Just have a look at today's Telegraph to see how we are perceived by the rest of the UK. Telegraph has obtained the results of focus groups run by Vision Wales and the Arts Council. It blows a hole completely in the idea that somehow the Assembly has changed the image of Wales.
Just image if you were in Cardiff yesterday. After the game along with others I was forced to stand like cattle waiting to be allowed on to the museum piece that is Cardiff station. Capital city? Don't make me laugh. This was after walking through streets full of individuals wearing red shirts who didn't even know what planet they were on. Watching Wales has now become an excuse to drink all day. It really was pathetic to listen to the reception of the Haka. Some of us are old enough to rememeber the days when no drink was allowed in the stadium, supporters respected the other team even when Wales were beaten and the only people lucky enough to wear a red jersy were the players. Yesterday like all international days did not help the image of Wales and merely confirmed the views of those who took part in the Visit Wales focus groups.
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Now the spectacle of an alchohol induced show of disrespect in a rugby match is down to the Welsh speakers.
This Blog is degenerating into farce I am sorry to say Bethan.
Seeing as the percentage of English speakers in Wales is greater than the percentage of Welsh speakers.
I think it is safe to assume those showing the alchoholic induced abuse were English speaking.
Welsh speakers will be blamed for all the ills of the world before long and there will be a call for the ethnic cleansing of them.
Though with the attitude of some contributors on this blog it has already started.
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Will a referendum fail to deliver a welsh Parliament?
The answer is increasingly evident. No matter that the margin is small; the results in all polls are consistent, particularly the assembly's poll on attitudes to the Welsh Assembly. This is persuasive; only those intending to vote Tory are, for the most part, against further devolution.
As to the descent of the Welsh "personality" into xenophobic Nationalism, this is traceable to the rise of the Assembly but also to the Welsh language acts which have given native Welsh speakers control over many aspects of Government and Education.
The attitudes prevalent in North West Wales are increasingly being seen in Cardiff and the South East as, over the last decade, there has been a large influx of Native Welsh speakers from Gwynedd and Ynys Mon. Welsh medium education is increasingly demanded and the teachers are recruited, again, from the North and West of Wales.
A Welsh language Board study of migration of young people from Welsh Speaking areas of Wales to England found that Welsh Speakers stayed within Wales. Non welsh speakers left for England.
Contrary to accepted fact, the last ten to twenty years has seen the consolidation of well paid employment opportunities based on Welsh language ability. Within the North and West and increasingly in Cardiff only first language welsh speakers are favoured in this way.
Native Welsh speakers make up only 11% to 16% of the population but dominate education and local Government.
The language itself should not be a matter of concern but for the most part people from the Bro Cymraeg have a narrow cultural viewpoint which is fiercely anglophobic. Wales should be concerned at giving over control of Education and Government to people who have a limited world view and a limited and intolerant agenda.
As for the leadership of the Welsh Labour party; some years ago Carwyn Jones wrote a piece for the North Wales Daily Post describing his stay in North Wales.
He described how he was asked to pay for parking but when he replied in Welsh the attendant refused payment saying that he had not realised that Carwyn was Welsh. Carwyn was apparently pleased at this. It did not occur to him that:-
(a) The attendant was defrauding his employer of money.
(b) He (Carwyn) was a willing party to racial descrimination. (In Gwynedd non Welsh speakers are English.)
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Today - a quiet thought;
In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.
We are the dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved, and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.
Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
John McCrea
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Here is another one
"We preach the virtues of democracy abroad.
We must practice its duties here at home.
Voting is the first duty of democracy."
Lyndon B Johnson
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17
SEDWOT
Sorry to knock your argument.
I live in a South of Wales Valleys area, our children went through the Bilingual Education system, because that is what it is throughout Wales not Welsh Medium.
If you can find it any different I will gladly appologise.
99.9% of the children in the schools our children attended were from English speaking homes.
Many of those children went on to Further Education, to become Teachers in a Bilingual system, or teach Welsh as a second language in the English language system.
I suppose the same statistics could be used for every Bilingual School in The South of Wales.
These are not from Gwynedd or Anglesey or even the West of Wales.
But the South of Wales Valleys and surounding areas.
I think the Bilingual education system in Wales would be in dire straights if they just had to rely on Teachers from those areas you mention.
Because of the great demand today from parents who want thier children educated in a Bilingual system they are taking advantage of the Bilingual system they went through.
So please remember by denegrating Bilingual Teachers you are also including those brought up in English speaking homes.
As for that piece about Carwyn Jones I shall take that with a very large bit of salt.
We are talking about the Daily Post, owned by the same people who own the Western Mail.
On my holidaying around the North of Wales it is impossible to hear anyone with a Welsh accent, in any part of the service sector, let alone speak the language.
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17. 'No matter that the margin is small; the results in all polls are consistent, particularly the assembly's poll on attitudes to the Welsh Assembly'.
The trouble is, SEDWOT, these polls are all conducted by campaigners for further powers. You might find this interesting:
http://www.truewalesnocampaign.org.uk/News.html
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SEDWOT, when alfsplace1986 at #20 writes .....
I live in a South of Wales Valleys area, our children went through the Bilingual Education system, because that is what it is throughout Wales not Welsh Medium.
He is in fact being disingenuous, throughout Wales we have English Medium schools, Welsh Medium schools and a form of Bilingual schooling in certain areas, and of course our Special schools for children with special needs.
Living in the Caerphilly borough there are no Bilingual schools available for children, presumably in Caerphilly we are considered a different race, certainly reading the nonsense that emanates from the separatist seats you might think so.
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22
TheStonemason
I refer you
http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/schoolgate/aboutschool/content/inwelsh.shtml
Now to the rest of my post in 20 please
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Off the same site:
'Cultural identity
Occasionally, children can feel confused about who they are: if they speak Welsh and English, are they Welsh, English, British, European, Anglo-Welsh? For many parents and children, this is not a problem - they may speak two languages, but they are resolutely identified with one ethnic or cultural group. There are some bilinguals who feel both British and Welsh, and they don't mind being 'culturally hyphenated'! There will be a few others who feel uncomfortable moving between two identities'.
What on earth are we coming to? Try 'human'.
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Neocromwellian #19
Timely comment -
"We preach the virtues of democracy abroad.
We must practice its duties here at home.
Voting is the first duty of democracy."
Those we remember and honour today, gave their futures so we have the freedom to express opinions and vote.
The machinations, distortions and mendacity of our politicians dishonour them, and what they fought for.
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Alfsplace1986.
Yes and no.
Ynys Mon, for instance, describes itself as providing "bilingual education". It is not the case, however, that any parent can ask for their child to be educated exclusively or even primarily through the medium of English.
Primary education from the age of 4 years uses the "immersion" system of teaching through the Welsh language. As the Head teacher of our local school said in her introductory address to parents "we WILL NOT translate".
This remains the case throughout the time children are at the school. It is true that where classes are small most children get through all aspects of their education and it is impossible to decide if they would do better being educated through the medium of English.
The problem is that in large classes (37 in the case of one of my children)less confident children stop communicating with the teacher and learn (or not) through their peers.
The reason why I pointed out that it is North and West Wales (Carmarthenshire has the highest number of Welsh speakers) that provide teachers to south Wales is the proportion of fluent Welsh Speakers in the relevant areas.
Cardiff has 19% of its population able to speak Welsh but only 42% of those are fluent welsh speakers.
Gwynedd has 70% of its population able to speak welsh but 83% of those are fluent welsh speakers.
Of the 317,000 fluent welsh speakers in Wales 212,000 come from just 4 counties in the North and West.
I imagine that pupils in South Wales and the Valleys who go to bilingual schools, particularly if they are 99.9% from English speaking homes, are taught in a different way to children in Gwynedd.
A teacher in Gwynedd can safely assume that when he teaches through the medium of Welsh the majority of his pupils have welsh as their home language. Not the case in South Wales.
Where on earth are you holidaying in North Wales that you don't encounter spoken Welsh? Eastern Flint?
Carwyn Jones wrote the piece himself . It had his strapline.
In South Wales fluent welsh speakers who have Welsh as a second language may be employed in the public sector. Not so in North Wales.
Ynys Mon has 60% of its population able to speak Welsh 79% of those (34,000) fluent.
There are virtually no Monoglot English speaking teachers and the Council officers are 81% first language Welsh speakers.
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26
SEDWOT
Thank you but I am sure that Headteacher is breaking the law and the curriculem is the same throughout wales.
Take last year, because I have learned Welsh I go out of my way to ask in shops and tourism places if they speak welsh so I am able to practice and I find they practicaly all say no and have accents that emminate from across the border.
Even the ones who are able to speak the language answer me in English, oddly enough.
Maybe because they have been browbeaten or made to feel inferior, I don't know.
Surley the North of Wales is the North of Wales, but it was in Meirionnydd and Gwynedd
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SEDWOT #17
your comment;
As to the descent of the Welsh "personality" into xenophobic Nationalism , this is traceable to the rise of the Assembly but also to the Welsh language acts which have given native Welsh speakers control over many aspects of Government and Education.
The decent ... into xenophobic Nationalism has its foundation in the Blue Books ("Reports of the commissioners of enquiry into the state of education in Wales" published in 1847,) and the response led by Robert Jones Derfel, whose book "Brad y llyfrau gleision" was published in 1854.
The divisions we currently see in Welsh Society are certainly due to control Welsh Speakers now have over the Assembly and Government in Wales.
Your comment;
the last ten to twenty years has seen the consolidation of well paid employment opportunities based on Welsh language ability. Within the North and West and increasingly in Cardiff only first language welsh speakers are favoured in this way.
Is correct - non welsh speakers are excluded from employment in public service and education.
You are right to point out;
Native Welsh speakers make up only 11% to 16% of the population but dominate education and local Government.
I strongly agree with you here!!
Wales should be concerned at giving over control of Education and Government to people who have a limited world view and a limited and intolerant agenda.
However - we are currently involved in a massive, expensive, propoganda and misinformation campaign - things are not what they seem.
Your conclusion:
Will a referendum fail to deliver a Welsh Parliament?
The answer is increasingly evident. No matter that the margin is small; the results in all polls are consistent, particularly the assembly's poll on attitudes to the Welsh Assembly.
Is flawed - you are relying on propoganda.
There is also plenty of evidence that many Labour supporters as well as Tories do not support further powers.
Have a look at the actual election results since 1997 - they suggest a very different pattern to that which is being spun.
It seems the population of Wales is not as gullible as some hope.
They are not pleased with the performance of our Assembly!
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I don't think True Wales can be considered to be neutral while YouGov is considered biased when it comes to polling. Its part of the paranoia of some anti devolution campaigners that they see the world as it is not. They see the world as being anti devolution and all organisations dominated by Plaid activists. I seriously think some of them border on the certifiable the extent to which they imagine that whole world is conspiring against them.
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When contributors such as alfsplace1986 write drivel such as "Maybe because they have been browbeaten or made to feel inferior, I don't know." you have probably entered the world of Oz, do you remember the wizard of Oz, the Plaid language activists constantly try their sackcloth and ashes scenario in an attempt to garner sympathy for their ludicrous plans.
The truth is much different .....
..... because of recent linguistic activities of the Welsh political cabal at Cardiff Bay, the vast majority of monoglot English speaking Welsh people realise that the only opportunity for advancement rests with companies based East of Offa's dyke where the ability to converse in the Cymraeg is regarded as irrelevant, many of the less commercially able Cymraeg speakers remain in Wales in government employ, they seem adept at creating linguistically sympathetic opportunities heavily supported by the United Kingdom taxpayers, no wealth generation from this group, this political group maintain a marginalised sector of poorly paid people to service their needs in the community, naturally they pay lip service to equality whilst paying these people a subsistence wage.
Don't worry, there is no starvation, the exchequer tops up the pay with various benefits, I wonder if this top-up is included when calculation the dependence people in Wales are upon the exchequer, employment was 75% dependent on the public purse, could it be 85% I wonder.
Back to education, this same political group fund the education of children £500 per child less than in England, one wonders why ...... our children are denied a good education.
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#29 Lyn_Thomas when you write .....
........ Its part of the paranoia of some anti devolution, you are delusional.
Plaid Cymru of course is different, a petty dysfunctional disparate group of people, only the very odd would not oppose this party; I noticed they were not at Whitehall today, even though so many Welsh soldiers have died for this country, I wouldn't have left it to the Scots to put my poppy wreath at the cenotaph.
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#18 West-Wales
What a lovely thought especially for today.
I hope you don’t mind but I have linked to your post on a number of other blogs.
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It has been obvious for a long time that the Labour and Unionist Party is hopelessly divided on further powers for the Assembly. A referendum will expose those divisions for all to see.
I've waited my whole life to see the destruction of the Labour and Unionist Party in Wales. Now it's going to happen, and the beauty of it is they're going to destroy themselves! Send in the clowns.
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#29 Lyn_Thomas
I know zilch about Wales or Welsh politics but have been lurking in the background for a number of days.
I take it you are Plaid Cymru?
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Alfsplace1986.
27
The curriculum may be standardised throughout Wales but teaching methods are left up to Education Authorities and individual schools.
Any child who forgets themselves and speaks to a teacher in English is reminded "Yn Gymraeg os gwelwch yn dda". Not in a harsh way, I hasten to add, but communicating in English within the school is frowned on. I have bumped into my Child's teacher in Tesco and exchanged pleasantries, but when she turned to speak to my daughter she addressed her in welsh.
You can agree or disagree with this way of communicating the language but you cannot dispute that it is the way teaching takes place in Gwynedd.
On the subject of Identity. The way the education system teaches welsh here has an unexpected side effect.
Children who speak welsh at home think of themselves as Welsh while those who speak English at home think of themselves as English. No matter that they were born in Wales and have parents born in Wales. The home language decides the national identity.
Look at the figures for "national Identity" in the Welsh Labour Force statistics; the highest number identifying as Welsh is in the Valleys but not, of course, the highest number of welsh speakers.
Look at Ynys Mon; 60% identify as Welsh 60% speak Welsh.
As to your efforts to communicate through the "Language"; attitudes to welsh learners are greatly misunderstood.
All native Welsh speakers like to claim that all a non-welsh speaker has to do to be accepted is to learn "the Language".
I was brought up in a small shop in a small village in Gwynedd. The welsh shop girls used to fall over themselves running into the back office whenever a certain English gentleman came in for his morning paper. Why? he had learned welsh and insisted on using it.
"An Englishman speaking Welsh is like a dog which walks on his hinder legs; it is not done well but one wonders that it is done at all."
Don't worry that Welsh speakers in Gwynedd might be feeling inferior, on the contrary they are only conscious of YOUR inferiority.
West wales. 28.
I have looked at the methodology for most polls on further powers for the Assembly. Not faultless but sound enough within the usual provisos.
I have other reasons for believing that a referendum would yield added powers for the Assembly:
(a) A conservative government will soon be in Westminster; Wales will try to move powers away from the Torys.
(b) "Why shouldn't Wales have what Scotland has"? is a powerful and persuasive argument. There is no credible counter argument.
(c) The polls are not self selecting therefore they represent opinions of the largely indifferent as well as the committed. A referendum is self selecting; the most committed will vote. Nationalists are consistently the most committed and tribal voters.
(d) There is, and will be, no dissenting major political party calling for a "No" vote. The Torys know the mistake they made at the last referendum and are still trying to claw back lost credibility in Wales.
Labour may be half hearted but they know how damaging the name "London Labour" is in the hands of the Nationalists. They will campaign for a "yes" vote.
There is only one (fair?) way that a "No" vote could prevail. There could be a proviso that there must be a 70% turnout.
In that case Labour and Tory parties would support a "Yes" vote but make no effort to get the vote out. The referendum would fail to make 70% and the status quo would remain.
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SEDWOT
'I have looked at the methodology for most polls on further powers for the Assembly. Not faultless but sound enough within the usual provisos'.
Excuse me for thinking you astoundingly naive. Are you not aware of the absurdity of the choice of prominent 'yes' campaigners from the Institute of Welsh affairs to produce this latest YouGov poll?
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#18 West-Wales
Here is another thought for Rememberence day.
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18 and 37
I know it's a poem often chosen but it brings home the horror of war:
http://www.warpoetry.co.uk/owen1.html
It's apt for World War I, probably Iraq and possibly Afghanistan. I don't know how WWII could have been avoided, though; National Socialism and the slaughter of Jews, other ethnic groups and political dissidents had to be stopped.
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http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/welsh-politics/welsh-politics-news/2009/06/09/we-are-now-fighting-for-the-very-existence-of-welsh-labour-91466-23820597/
“People in Plaid seem to be pretty depressed about their performance, but they have no reason to be. They weren’t far behind Labour and did well in the seats they hope to win at the general election. I’m sure they will do very well at the next Assembly election.”
Prof Jones dismissed the success of Ukip in winning a seat: “Their vote was roughly the same as last time. They only got the seat because of the collapse in Labour’s vote and the fact that the first three parties were bunched together. Wales was one of the worst regions in Britain for Ukip.”
What a biased comment by Prof Jones, bigging up Plaids performance who increased their vote by 1.1%. Whilst dismissing UKIP who's vote share was up 2.3%, they came second behind the Conservatives in Monmouthshire, Brecon & Radnor and Mongomery, They came third behind Labour in several other constituencies, and pushed the Lib Dems into fifth place.
There was no good news for nationalists in the Euro elections, especially for ridiculous vote losing Rhodri. Adam Price described Labour's plight as seismic, it was, its spells the end of social engineering and Rhodri type Welsh, Welsh speaking elitism.
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notonationalism 36.
NAIVE isit! ASTOUNDINGLY NAIVE isit!
Yes ,well my most endearing trait.
I have some cred. on polls though. I did get the BBC to change a headline when they mis-represented a poll and I did get Beaufort Research to admit that they were asking non-neutral forms of certain questions in an Omnibus poll for the Welsh Language Board.
(Yes we know but the WLB made us do it they said!!)
The mistake you may be making is in failing to accept that even when the "wrong" people are asking the questions the conclusions may be correct.
You may also be replacing "I wish it to be so" with "it is so."
Yougov has a good record on accuracy but it's the Welsh assembly "Attitudes" poll which is persuasive. It has good methodology and a large sample.
More persuasive still is the "Poll of Polls."
But enough of this. Time will tell.
My major concern with welsh politics is how unrepresentative it has become. It is always a clever political trick when a party can so "taint" an idea that discussion of it disappears completely.
In Britain as a whole the "clever" tricks have been pulled by the Tory party for the most part, due in great measure to a domination of the Media.
"Public ownership of assets is inefficient."
has been a great success as an unquestionable fact. No matter that private ownership of the railways is a catastrophe or that we no longer have control of power generation in the UK.I won't even mention the near destruction of the Western economy by the cerebral banking industry.
"All taxation is bad."
Is another success for the right.
In Wales the Success has all been Plaid's.
"Why shouldn't we control our own affairs?" has won the day. As I have said, there is no political party with a coherent counter argument which they could deploy without courting electoral disaster.
"The Welsh language should not be a "political football". It is a world treasure."
Plaid must wake up in the night and hug themselves!
Can you imagine a political party in Wales suddenly saying; "The Welsh language acts have been a huge mistake, Welsh is a limited and un-loved language, largely anglicised and of no conceivable value. It has divided the nation and turned it into an embittered and introverted laughing stock in the wider world. We recognise the injustice of having a small proportion of the population claim the "Human right" to be understood whenever they address someone in their chosen language while the majority are obliged to learn welsh in contravention of their "Human right" to live their lives through the medium of the English language".
No, of course not.
All very extreme, of course, however the paradoxes in this situation are self evident. Parents in South Wales protest their right to have Welsh medium education for their Children and get more and more schools but there is no right to English medium education in Gwynedd and Ynys Mon. Just one English Medium School exists in Ynys Mon, they opted out of local authority control some years ago and they have become the largest primary school on the island drawing pupils from more than twenty miles away. This suggests a demand but of course, such would be the vicious backlash if this demand was ever made public, there is no voice to express it.
So, elections loom. It has probably gone un-noticed that there has been a two year long spate of burning boat yards in Ynys Mon and Gwynedd. The police, under the direction of "pryfcop" Brunstom (Cymuned member and member of the Gorsedd of Bards) have been careful to claim these arson attacks are "unlinked" but today two holiday houses were burned in North Ynys Mon and arrests were made. Will it be common vandalism or Nationalism do you think?
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SEDWOT,
It's evident that you're a very intelligent clued up politico, it's like you're in with the 'In Crowd'. Try using down to earth language.
Me, I'm a builder from Newport, and I'm sick to the guts of idiots in Newport's Llafur/ Welsh Labour AKA 'Explicitly Welsh Patriotic Party, who spout with sectarian bravado that they're Irish-Welsh Celts!! Me and mine, are English speaking Brits, so obviously we're going to vote for The Conservative and Unionist party. Where do you stand?
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SEDWOT
Maybe I was a little over-emphatic in my suggestion that you are 'astoundingly' naive! The more you dig, though, the more corrupt and shamelessly undemocratic you perceive those who govern us to be. I certainly wouldn't trust any Assembly poll, just as I would struggle to give credence to any poll carried out by any government. Vested interest is a powerful force.
Your point about the tainting of an idea to the point that it becomes undebatable is excellent. If we want democracy to die, this is the way to go.
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41,42.
Here's an interesting Question or two.
When Rhodri Morgan goes who will you think of when you visualise the Welsh Assembly?
Is "Native Welsh Speaker" a political party?
Polls show that, after the expenses debacle in Westminster, Welsh people find Assembly members more trustworthy than MPs. Why isn't support for a Welsh Parliament more widespread?
When Nick Bourne was widely criticised for getting an "Ipod" on expenses he justified himself by saying that he was using it to improve his welsh language skills.
Is this the excuse of choice in wales for all wrong doing?
(here I'm thinking of two cases that came to court in North Wales; in one two men trashed an Indian Restaurant in Caernarfon and left with the parting shot "If you want to set up business round here LEARN WELSH"
The second was an assault on a nurse in Ysbyty Glan Clwyd, She was choked by a patient. The man's solicitor offered the justification in court that "My client was frustrated that she didn't speak Welsh")
Am's, for instance could justify having extra-marital relations with Welsh speakers on the grounds that they whispered "Cariad" during coitus.
When letters to the "Post" and "Western Mail" often identify the writer as a "Proud Welshman" which Wales do you think of, Indeed, how many homogeneous "Wales's" can you identify?
Is the open animosity between Native Welsh speakers and "Language deniers" of the same order as sectarian differences in Northern Ireland or religeous differences between muslims in Iraq? (It can be of the same order but not of the same degree.)
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Rememberance Day
#25 West-Wales said
"Those we remember and honour today, gave their futures so we have the freedom to express opinions and vote.
The machinations, distortions and mendacity of our politicians dishonour them, and what they fought for."
I totally agree with this statement and can only at my own disgust at the failure of Gordon Brown to bow at the Cenetaph.
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Interesting comparison between Welsh cabal surveys and the All Wales Survey .....
..... 75.5% want out or keep it as it is, I make that a No. What it tells me is that, politically, Wales is being let down at Cardiff Bay, if it hadn't been let down in areas such as Health, Housing and Education the figures would probably be reversed .....
..... Shame on Cardiff Bay.
More information for the 6.6% wanting to float Wales into a separate Socialist Republic at ...
All Wales Survey!.
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True Wales (the only 'organisation' actively promoting a No vote) conduct an opinion poll (of doubtful methodology) in Vale of Glamorgan (hardly representative of Wales).......and this means what????
No problem - just give us the referendum.
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I've been away for the weekend, and have only just had the time to read some of the gems on this thread. Oh, dear! It may take scientists a long time to piece together a pile of dinosaur bones, but five minutes of reading this rubbish will leave you in no doubt as to how they sound.
The paranoia, the hatred, the anti-Welsh language - indeed anti-Welsh speakers - bile and insults is, to develop the metaphor further, jaw-dropping!
However, they are so few. They are three of four neo-conservatives, who are merely shell-shocked because their comfortable political and social hegemony is being challenged by the Welsh themselves. And they - not surprisingly - don't like it. And because they don't like it, they get nasty, and seem to enjoy being nasty. How else can you explain why this blog seems to encounter so few new participants? And with their macho style of politics, it perhaps explains why we seem to have so few women contributing to the debate.
Stonemason, for instance, will not - can not!! - answer any pertinent questions. The debate, therefore, is no longer a debate; and that is very sad.
And Stonemason's attempt to make this True Wales poll legitimate is just laughable.
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SM - what did you get back re your petition? My petition was rejected for not being under resposnibility of Assembly (despite my picking a non-contraversial subject). I will repost on No 10 site, despite me thinking this is the wrong place.
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Issues over the Welsh language seem to miss the point, we are part of Europe and most of us agree that is where the future lies. We need a leader who is going to address this issue.
Those who want an independent Wales believe that we would be better off in Europe however, the emphasis on the Welsh language maybe putting us at a disadvantage compared to England and other areas of the UK.
Here is the evidence
Encouraging active global citizenship: CILT Cymru
"i. We at CILT Cymru are very concerned that too few young people within our education system are being equipped with the linguistic skills and cultural knowledge which would allow them to take advantage of work, training and study opportunities within the EU.
iv. Latest figures from ESTYN also indicate that only 27.4% of Welsh schoolchildren pursue their study of a foreign language (MFL) beyond Year 9. This 3-year compulsory period of foreign language learning (at Key Stage 3) is probably the shortest anywhere in Europe. We are failing to build on the 'bilingual advantage’ that we possess in Wales.
v. By the time young people reach university, it is often too late for them to address this skills gap. As a result very few of our students take advantage of opportunities to access funded programmes of study or work experience abroad. With increasing unemployment, young Welsh people (including graduates) are finding that they are at a disadvantage when faced with competition from bi-lingual or trilingual workers from other EU states."
http://www.assemblywales.org/bus-home/bus-committees/bus-committees-third1/bus-committees-third-eur-home/bus-committees-third-eur-agendas.htm?act=dis&id=143787&ds=10/2009
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#48 penddu, no response as yet, it is taking much longer than previously.
Just over a year ago I proposed a very similar petition, wording was different but the sentiment very similar, I was rejected for reasons similar to yours. This time I have asked them to petition Westminster on the electorates behalf, that is definitely within their scope. You probably realise, without getting into detailed discussions, that the objective is to lift a referendum majority from a potentially challengeable majority, to an unchallengeable majority.
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50 - My petition was also worded to ask the Culture Minister to lobby.....but apparently rejected as outside of his control.
ps I think you have made a spelling error in your earlier e-mail - I think you meant to say:
You probably realise, without getting into detailed discussions, that the objective is to lift a referendum majority from a potentially ACHIEVABLE majority, to an UNACHIEVABLE majority.
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penddu, if a proposition is good enough, if it is explained without ambiguity, if the message gets to every voter (as near as practical), we would be well on the way to democracy. All that would remain is for a just majority to be determined ......
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The "One " Wales Agreement has been nothing short of a disaster for Labour,except for King Rhodri's look alikes who wish to internalise wales into some sort of theme park,where tourist can come and see and idealised sort of wales,that actually never existed. The three contenders are trying to breathe life into a corpse as local membership is dwindling and the sort of communities that I came from have all but been destroyed by economic reality,and consequent social collapse. The welshyfying of wales has resulted in a totally unhealthy view of welsh rugby and its so called part in welsh life. In a previous life our King Rhodri was opposed to the creation of Opera House in Cardiff because it was "elitest" and expensive,however tickets for games now cost over £60,and mainly to watch beaten sides against real top countries. The booing/drinking in games,up and down in match when game on for beer suppliers,pre match entertainment has convinced me its more like a Zoo rather than sporting occasion. I also read report in Telegraph about "appalling" results of investigation in outsiders see us and it makes you embarassed to be welsh,however typical that BBC Wales could'nt find this out,rather the Telegraph,whichh is atleast an honest paper.
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SM - I have no problem with clear explanations, communicating messages and maximising turnout.
I do not have a problem in principle with requiring an ehanced majority for constitutional referenda (although we can discuss the enhanced level ad nauseum).
But I do have a problem with any system which presumes that non-voters would have voted a particular way, as this is fundamentally undemocratic.
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53
The Visit Wales spokesman said that this was all down to unfair English stereotyping of the Welsh. The comment about the coal tips was out of date but it's certainly true that thanks to the political class down the Bay and its obsession with Welsh identity - and its determination to ensure that it even pervades the school curriculum - racist hatred towards the English has increased.
To be honest, I don't know why they bothered to carry out the survey; if they dismiss the findings by blaming the English yet again, it's not as if they're going to learn anything from this or seek to change anything.
He claimed that the English feel that the language excludes them but that the Irish love it. As a Welsh English speaker, I have to say that I feel more as the English do. The Welsh language is being used as a tool to shape this new hostile, xenophobic Wales. It is being forced on people in the workplace and in schools, used as a sort of punishment for those who dare to live in Wales without being 'proper Welsh'.
What a grim, joyless, unwelcoming place this country has become.
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Notonationalism
What a grim, joyless, unwelcoming place this country has become.
It need not of been like this, this benighted region is more or less engaged in civil war!! English speaking Brits are sick to death of Llafurs Cymraeg enforcement and expansionism, and Rhodi's full of indignation that his vote share's collapsing. Yeap, both sides are sad and disheartened, but who's going to prevail? The Llafur enforcers, or their intended but fighting back victims?
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Re 55
In a tough competition, Noto takes nonsense and lack of logic to the level of genius.
First of all, despite being one of the sad cabal who preaches that the Assembly is an irrelevance, he now says that the English have so much knowledge of it, and so much interest in it, that they have all come to a considered, settled view!!
He then goes on to tell us of his hatred of the Welsh language, only then to claim that it's the Welsh speakers who are xenophobic!!!
Priceless.
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Wake up to the reality of today's Wales, FoDafydd. Notonationalism is exactly right, it is you and your fellow exponents of the 'bash anything that is English' brigade who are deluded. Like it or not, many of us born and bred Welsh people recognise that we share a common heritage with working people on the other side of Offa's Dyke.
It is devolution that has brought to the fore the cultural differences and ideologies that now exist in this small country. We must either stop the encouragement of hatred towards the English which offends so many of us; build another Berlin Wall, so that both sides can live in peace, or perhaps the Welsh Labour Party will soon have a new leader who will reverse the current downward spiral to sectarianism.
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Yesterday and the publication of how we are perceived by the rest of the UK has been a real rude awakening in terms of the friction that devolution (voted for by a few) is causing in all of our names. The artificial walls that have already been created around Wales (such as the WAG bribing students to go to university in Wales by only offering tuition fees to those who stay and study at Welsh universities) is breeding hatred and a lack of understanding.
There are hundreds more little examples of how this latest nationalist exploited Welsh government is trying to make us different and seperate from England. A sense of national identity is important, however, unless you're a well rounded set of people who've experienced or had the opportunity to experience and understand your neighbours then you're just going to end up a bunch of inward looking xenophobes... a bit like some of the ones we've got here on this blog who've clearly never ventured beyond their village.
I welcome some of the fervency and North Wales influence on our Assembly. It has made us all more aware of our Welshness.... However, it is having a very unwelcome side effect of creating a Wales perceived as 'rude and unfriendly'. I dont think I will be the only South Walian very angry today at our reputation of being friendly and welcoming being ripped away because of nationalist politicians whipping up dangerous nationalist sentiment purely to get their dirty hands on more power than they can handle.
The nationalists may think that the only mark of Welshness is being able to speak Welsh but I would say that for the vast majority of us who dont speak it, it is more about our reputation for friendliness and community values. I cant be the only one who would happily see Labour and Plaid Cymru out on their backsides if they start jepordising this reputation.
Yes I may well tick 'Welsh' on the next census but if push comes to shove then I, like the vast majority Welsh decended from a wider Brit background, will always relate more to say Fred Dibnah than I would some welsh speaking Ffermio presenter on S4C (and Fred's dead and i'm only in my twenties!!).
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Re 58
Real world, eh! Well, in the world of this blog day after day after day we get a diatribe of abuse towards the language and Welsh speakers. Fact. May I ask a question, where do you see anything like - ANYTHING LIKE - that kind of abuse and hatred aimed at the English? Perhaps you'd like to give me the numbers.
Re 59
There are so many things wrong here, where do I start. I'll just mention one thing, your claim that Welsh nationalists believe you have to be Welsh speaking to be Welsh!! What nonsense - what utter nonsense. I suggest you ask Mohammed Ashkar, born in Pakistan, Janet Rider, born and brought up a Geordie or even Leanne Wood brought up an English speaker in the Rhondda.
The truth seems to play no part in some people's thinking.
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Re No.60
But with knowing very little of these 3 people and without googling them I can be sure that they are either learning the language or are totally in favour of 'Welshifying' the South and South east of Wales through social engineering in order to create their vision of what Wales should be like. People can and already have decided these things for themselves.
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59.
The Wales tourist board study of attitudes to Wales was interesting, as were the comments on the BBC web site.
Every comment is valid although there is a clear misunderstanding about use of the Welsh language. I have never given much credence to accounts of people speaking English and deliberately reverting to Welsh. In truth Welsh speakers freely and randomly switch languages. An account of any English conversation is recounted in English. Talking about last nights X factor is in English because the programme was in English. People who watch Eastenders come out with phrases like "Mae'n bang outta order" in the middle of an otherwise Welsh conversation (I heard that in Llanberis!)
What cannot be denied is the consistent linking of those who speak Welsh with anti English sentiment. What is also clear is that people visiting the South of Wales are likely to record a pleasant experience and those visiting the North West an unpleasant one.
I realise that many writing to this blog are against further devolution to the Welsh assembly. Personally I am ambivalent. Certainly it is no big deal.
What concerns me and concerns me greatly is what the nature of a Welsh parliament will be.
If Wales continues to allow the often blatantly racist attitudes that are a day to day feature of life in the Bro Cymraeg to dominate the Assembly then the country will continue to descend into bitter division.
Consider the power of the language pressure groups;
First and foremost is the Welsh language Board. State financed to support
a section of the Welsh population.
Derived from them are the Menterau Iaith. To support the Language in business.
Funded by the WLB is the Welsh youth movement, The Urdd. Prevalent in Schools and largely used by first language Welsh speakers.
Also supported by the state are the various eisteddfodau. Also exclusively for a small section of the population.
The Welsh language and culture has its own Political party, Plaid Genedlaethol Cymru.
Plaid created an arms-length pressure group to carry out unlawful, non violent direct action on behalf of its (Plaid's) supporters. The link is similar to the relationship between the IRA and Sinn Fein but, I hasten to add, without the extreme violence. That group is;
Cymdeithas Yr Iaith Cymraeg (Cym. Gym.)
Also there are lesser pressure groups, privately funded, but with close links to elected Plaid Politicians. These groups also carry out random acts of vandalism in support of either the Welsh language or restrictions on home ownership to "local Welsh people".
Cymuned sports among its members a leading American academic The ex-head of policing in North Wales and Ian Titherington, Searchlight Cymru secretary. (English Colonists Out eh Ian!!)
As well as being Cymuned the same people sometimes morph into temporary political Parties. Llais Ceredigion or Llais Gwynedd for instance, however they always vote Plaid in National elections.
Another pressure group, Cefn, fights injustices against Welsh Speakers.
A ten thousand pound award to a chef dismissed for refusing to communicate with staff in English was a success down to the perseverence of Cefn.
The question I would ask is this; how do these pressure groups succeed? Is it through legitimate and reasoned appeal to the wide public of Wales or is it through low level threat and intimidation of business and individuals, indoctrination in education and clandestine dealing between like minded people.
I have already said that I believe the "Language" has become a no-go area for politicians and I believe too that no English speaker complaining of systemic racism would get a hearing from the CRE, for instance, nor from a single AM or MP. Such is the complete subjugation of democracy in Wales to those few Native Welsh Speakers.
It is not unusual in a country for a small but powerful group to attain domination. But the characteristics of this group are not pleasant to contemplate.
If you think back to 2001 you may remember how quite a few senior Welsh Language figures and Plaid politicians forgot themselves in the post 1997 devolution euphoria.
John El. Jones (I used to work with him) referred to the English as the "Foot and Mouth disease of Wales". Others referred to the "Misfits and Rejects" or "Scum" from across the border.
Plaid suffered at the polls as a result and now keep a tight rein on their bigotry.
The irony is that Plaid , assured of dominance in its heartlands, has morphed into a different animal to conquer the South.
Ieuan Wyn Jones proudly announced that they have more non-welsh speaking members than Welsh Speakers and that they are a party for all Welsh people no matter what language they speak.
Believe it at your peril!
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So yet again a thread that was meant to discuss the Labour leadership in Wales is hijacked by those whose only concern in life seems to be a pathological hatred of the Welsh language and all things Welsh.
It's sad, rather sinister, but mainly incredibly boring.
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Very interesting SEDWOT. The fact that you clearly know a great deal about what you are saying and are relying on facts as opposed to just your own experiences (like I sometimes do) is.... well a bit horrifying to be honest. Sometimes I hope to be told that I've got it all wrong and there isnt actually a deep seated and secret agenda to divide this country and then socially engineer it out of recognition from the one I was born in. I'm amazed that more people are not vocal about this! Surely they cant all have been scared into silence by the nationalists calling them 'not real Welsh'.
One other quote of yours caught my eye:
"As for the leadership of the Welsh Labour party; some years ago Carwyn Jones wrote a piece for the North Wales Daily Post describing his stay in North Wales.
He described how he was asked to pay for parking but when he replied in Welsh the attendant refused payment saying that he had not realised that Carwyn was Welsh. Carwyn was apparently pleased at this. It did not occur to him that:-
(a) The attendant was defrauding his employer of money.
(b) He (Carwyn) was a willing party to racial descrimination. (In Gwynedd non Welsh speakers are English.)"
Is this true?? Has he since been asked to explain it? Surely we cant have the next first minister of this somewhat divided country finding racial/linguistic discrimination such as this amusing.
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SEDWOT, can you clarify what you mean by "blatantly racist attitudes that are a day to day feature of life in the Bro Cymraeg"?
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63 Fo Dafydd.
You keep blogging but not saying anything. Ask a question, impart some information. You acuse me of a pathological hatred, OK, but dispute any aspect of what I'm saying. Have a DIALOGUE. Be more expansive about your viewpoint. I'm open to reasonable discussion.
64.Carwyn Jones; Yes its true,(as long as my memory isn't playing tricks). Just to make sure Iv'e emailed the North Wales Daily Post asking them to check their archives and email me a copy.
If my memory has played me false I shall 'fess up.
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Re 66
But it's impossible. When I point out the nonsense of the claim that Welsh nationalists believe that only Welsh speakers are truly Welsh, I'm met by silence. When I make carefully crafted arguments and ask detailed questions of Stonemason, he just curls up in a ball, sulks and refuses to answer any of them.
What is the point of trying to 'debate' with people for whom it seems the highlight of their day is to come on here to abuse the language or Welsh speakers and indeed to accuse whole communities of being racist. There may very well be some racists in Welsh speaking Wales, but are you seriously saying that the figure is ANY different to, for instance, the Valleys - or for that matter Sussex or Surrey or Kent?! When I hear of hate crimes - it is not usually in Gwynedd or Anglesey or Ceredigion...
As I said, this thread was originally about the Labour leadership, but it's been hijacked by the usual nonsense. It's actually developing into quite an interesting contest, but too many just couldn't give a damn.
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#67 FoDafydd, I read your ......
.... When I make carefully crafted arguments.........
.......... and fell about laughing, are you becoming the joker in the pack.
Just for you Fo, when the petition is posted by the petitions committee, or when they reject it, I will answer your questions, not a minute before.
I have a question for you though, can you confirm that Plaid is not about Wales, it is about Socialism far to the left of the Labour Party, it is only the separatist option that will allow your vision of Wales. Socialism takes precedent over Society.
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65, 67.
See previous blog (43) about incidents of violence involving people attacking non welsh speakers. Its interesting to me that in those two cases the court refused to call them racist incidents because the attackers referred only to the language and not nationality.
There was one other recent violent incident involving anti English racism.
A female student punched and kicked in Cricieth (I think it was). There was no dispute in court that the words "I hate you f---ing English" were said during the attack but the court decided that since only one of the assailants could be found guilty of assault and it wasn't clear who shouted the "I hate you f--- English" then it couldnt be classified as a racially agravated crime.
The courts in North Wales bend over backwards and turn themselves inside out to avoid finding racism against the English or any link between language discrimination and violence.
I could give you several more examples. The most telling involves a friend of mine who attended WLPAN classes and even spent two seperate stays in Nant Gwrtheyrn. Totally open to learning Welsh. In 2003 at the end of her street in Bethesda appeared a poster "Tai i pobl leol" and the painted slogan "English go home."
She became nervous and suspicious of her Welsh neighbours, stopped trying to speak Welsh and eventually let her house and went to America. I still visit, she dislikes and mistrusts the people she once tried to befriend.
There have been two studies of Racism based on reported incidents to police in relation to the number of Ethnic Minorities living in a police area. (not English people) the worst place for racist incidents in Britain was the North Wales police area. Bigotry is non selective ultimately and it is my personal opinion that no society that is culturally conservative can fail to generate more than its fair share of bigots.
What is unusual about Wales is how discrimination has been legalised through the language acts without any safeguards against abuse.
In Ynys Mon 60% of the people speak Welsh. Of those a high proportion (80%) will be fluent and a slightly smaller number will be first language Welsh speakers. Lets say that 50% of the adult population might demand services from the council delivered through the medium of Welsh. Yet the declared aim of the Council is to conduct all its internal communication through the Welsh Language and to this end it tries to employ only fluent Welsh speakers (it fails but nevertheless attains 81%).
This is disproportionate and therefore discriminatory. There is no mechanism for redress nor any political will to question what is happening.
South Wales is blissfully unaware of what could happen to all those nice pensionable public service jobs. (It wouldn't happen really, the numbers don't add up. It is already the case that those people employed in public service jobs largely provide a Welsh language service for EACH OTHER)
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Re 68
I'm sorry, Stonemason, you can laugh as much as you like, but you were totally unable to defend your petition. And in that 'discussion' your excuse of an idea was well and truly taken apart - not by me alone, but by others too. Not that it was difficult!!
I see you have the cheek to expect someone to answer your questions! However, I'm no coward, so I'll have a go. I say 'have a go' because I detect the influence of that Dorset brew on your effort. But the answer is simple; of course Plaid is about Wales. You'd all be rather silly with your excessive claims if they were not!!!
It is hardly difficult these days to be to the left of Labour. But, then, UKIP are probably a bunch of woolly liberals to neo-cons such as yourself who doesn't even believe in funding the NHS.
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Still nothing from Stonemason, I see...
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The petition is still not a petition, when it is there will be no defence, only reasons why it should be part of a national conversation, the idea that a few far left politicos were going to walk Wales into a republic without a real democratic hurdle to jump is ludicrous in the extreme.
The petition is about democracy, not a debate with the "FoDafydd", you'll get your day in court to explain why a few thousand people are sufficient to march 3 million citizens in a lemming like walk.
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Re 72
...as I said, no answers, no debate, no explanation.
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Sorry this is a reply to Stonemason about the lack of Plaid representation at the Cenotaph, the answer is that the political representatives are there at the invitation of the government, Plaid and the SNP form one group in parliament. They take it in turn to represent their parliamentary group at the Cenotaph, so no disrespect or snub, just the way the government arrange things for the event.
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Re 74
I hadn't seen that particular allegation from Stonemason. How sad that someone should go around deliberately looking for these kinds of things.
But Lyn_Thomas is quite right, that has always been the arrangement.
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I didn't realise that Lyn_Thomas, my apologies.
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#75 FoDafydd, if I had been Plaid leadership I would have gone myself, and if Westminster caused a problem I would have caused problems demonstrating their stupidity the very next day.
I would not have allowed another politician to do my duty, but you wouldn't understand, you never served ....
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Re 77
That's a ridiculous argument.
If you believe so much in leadership, then perhaps you would be so kind as to display some courage by answering questions that you have now avoided for days.
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Fo, I have listed your questions re. the petition, be patient, its been 2 weeks since the petition was lodged, It shouldn't take much longer, it is not myself that is taking the time.
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Lyn #74
Thank you - I was horrified that Plaid did not lay a Wreath.
Thought it was a snub to all who served and died.
I now understand the position.
However agree with Stony - It is difficult to believe that if proper representation had been made for you to pay your respects it would have been refused!
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