Oops.
Those fourteen "influential MPs", to quote Ladbrokes, who have come out today in support of Carwyn Jones's bid for the Labour leadership have made him the "re-hot 2/5 favourite" to win. By the way I'm guessing "re-hot" has nothing to do with re-gaining the lead given he's never lost it as far as I can tell and that Carwyn Jones is in fact the bookies' "red- hot" favourite to get Rhodri Morgan's job.
The First Minister must, of course, stand down first. Last night Rhodri Morgan attended a dinner given by the Muslim Council of Wales to celebrate ten years of devolution. The place was awash with politicians but the guest of honour was the outgoing First Minister.
The Master of Ceremonies in his finery asked for quiet to introduce the dignitaries sitting at the top table:
"The Right Honourable the Lord Elis Thomas of Nant Conwy .... The Right Honourable Rhodri Morgan MP ..."
The urgent whispers grew into a chorus of "it's AM!"
The Master of Ceremonies apologised. "Oh sorry" he said, "I've already given him a promotion".
I imagine those "influential MPs" will enjoy that one.
P.S. Yes, I KNOW that's not the sort of clanger you drop but ...
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
© MMX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~07~RS~)
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"Those "influential MPs", to quote Ladbrokes, who have come out today in support of Carwyn Jones's bid for the Labour leadership have made him the "re-hot 2/5 favourite" to win."
It's strange that the seeming inexorable hoovering up of Union endorsements by Edwina doesn't have a similar effect. If we look at the Maths then say the MPs split:
Carwyn 50%, Edwina 30%, Huw 20%
AMs
Carwyn 35%, Edwina 40%, Huw 25%
Average in this third:
Carwyn 43%, Edwina 35%, Huw 22%
Unions I reckon could go:
Edwina 55%, Carwyn 25%, Huw 20%
Weighting these two thirds give total before membership vote of:
Edwina 45%, Carwyn 34%, Huw 21%
What am I doing wrong here?
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I wonder if these influential MP 's have consulted with their constituents before pledging their allegiance to Carwyn or have they like the unions been told by London which way to vote. The longer this farce goes on the more it looks like a 'coronation' and the proof of that pudding will be in the eating at the next general election.
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1. Dewi
A bookies odds only relate to the amount of money taken, a bookmakers liability if you wish, remember the only winner is the bookie.
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BETsan, (bit of a wager pun there, somewhere)....
I am more than displeased with the fact that betting shops, which are still rather an anathema to me, having been brought up in the belief that betting on the high street was an immoral, and erstwhile illegal activity, are being allowed to interfere in the electoral process, even if only in this leadership matter.
Just another corruption to what was at one time a most severely controlled, and more or less respectably morally upright procedure.
Allowing gambling establishments to be involved in such matters is, to me, little more than permitting a form of prostitution to be involved in the electoral process.
I am also against partisan newspapers, and the rest of the media, being allowed to speculate, whilst supposedly 'explaining' the election to their readers, on which party will win, their so called information coming from 'opinion polls' invariably gathered by their own polling organisations, thereby giving the impression that their 'party' will become the next government etc.
I would opt for both gambling and reporting on the election, cease to be allowed, for at least one full week. if not even two, before the actual election date.
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4 - Map - I am with you on this, on puritanical grounds - but in the absence of a betting/speculation ban, I do think that Carwyn is being overated and the value bit is with Edwina (no prefernces stated)
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message 5...
Sorry Pen, but I have not the slightest idea who these characters are, nor am I the slightest interested in them.
As far as I am concerned all what transpires in the Bay, or on its periphery, is not of my concern.
The sooner it all goes away like the puff of smoke it truly is, the better, so we can return to the old tried and (dis)trusted status we were in before this nightmare came into being, as far as I am concerned.
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#5,
But where do you stand at "Googlies and sticky wickets", do you approve of political organisations taking advantage of the children of Newport, no different to the BNP I understand, except it would be the WNP.
There is a difference of course, In Wales the taxpayer foots the bill, a disgusting state of affairs.
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Re 7
You were asked why our school children should be made to stand waving union jacks when parasites from the royal family were in (a freshly painted) town. I notice you did not respond.
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#1 Dewi_H
Have you read this on Wales Home tonight Dewi? http://waleshome.org/2009/10/super-wednesday-its-edwinas-night
It takes a look at who the Constituency Labour Parties have been supporting. Support in Neath was overwhelming - 21 for Edwina Hart, 8 for Carwyn Jones, 1 for Huw Lewis. B+R was "clear for Edwina". Vale of Glam, I'm told, was 64% for her. It means she gets the supporting nomination of course, not the votes. How members choose to vote remains up to them.
Two things then I'm thinking about now: we can concentrate all we want on supporting nominations, be they a shed-load of MPs of CLPs or unions but in the end, it's who people actually vote for that matters. After tomorrow's deadline for supporting nominations - all done out there in the public gaze, who actually ends up voting for which candidate will not be made public.
The other? You call it 'the maths'. I call it 'the numbers.' I'll steer clear of Deep Throat's advice to 'follow the numbers' but I agree with you - ignoring the numbers (and that includes who's coming second when they're not winning) in this particular game would be daft.
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#8 FiDafydd,
I, as a parent, do not want your politics peddled to my daughter until she is old enough to make up her old mind, adulthood begins at 18.
Queen Elizabeth II is the head of state, why should I respond to the drivel from a separatist.
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10
TheStonemason.
Isn't she called the Queen of England.
I have had to have Conservative and Labour politics, English imperialism and history peddled to my children.
I have had to accept it, with no choice.
But hey, we are told it is called democracy.
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#11
You can write to Her Majesty at the following address:
Her Majesty The Queen
Buckingham Palace
London SW1A 1AA
I do not see England in the title, The Queen is Head of State of the UK and 15 other Commonwealth realms, democratic countries.
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11....
.....And as Wales is a region of the Realm, she is, even though I find it galling to so state it, the monarch over the whole Realm.
'Queen of England' is a historical, and constitutional nicety, and effectively means nothing, as far as 'borders' are concerned.
It may not be democratic, as some see it, but that is the system we are under, and until Republicans, such as myself, get our DEMOCRATIC way, that is where we are at, like it or not.
As for your comment about political and imperialistic history, I do tend to forget that the Welsh had NO hand in the formulation of that.
The historical enmeshment is so intense as to be unentangleable. So your remarks are somewhat tendacious and really unworthy of you.
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11
The Sonemason
You haven't answered my other comment
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11
TheStonemason
For expediency in the UK she may be called that.
In other countries she is known as the Queen of England and you can't deny that.
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Alf, when you write ....
I have had to have Conservative and Labour politics, English imperialism and history peddled to my children.
.... you have a vote in our imperfect world, fortunately your vote means something, in the old Soviet Union .... you can fill in the rest.
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#15
The "Assembly Member Leanne Wood" refers to her as "Mrs Windsor", it doesn't alter the fact that in ignorance a variety of labels might be attached to Her Majesty The Queen.
Sorry alf, but I am off out, shopping for elderly lady, 90 next April. Unfortunately she votes Plaid, but is coming round to a more moderate leaning, she knows the service is Conservative.
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To Betsan @#9 - I'm beginning to think that Edwina might take this on the first ballot.
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16
TheStonemason
Do you also mean like the vote they had in Afghanistan.
13
Mapexx55
As for your comment about political and imperialistic history, I do tend to forget that the Welsh had NO hand in the formulation of that.
In my unworthines, though I do appreciate you think I am worthy of greater things. All I can say to that is, exactly, because we have our own history and culture which predates anything imperialistic English history can give us.
If you say Wales had no hand in it why do you think it has to be pushed down our throats, so to speak.
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10.Betsan. The obvious assumption to make is that the closer you get to Swansea the more support Edwina attracts. What is interesting from yesterday was Nick Ainger the Carmarthen West MP (or should that be Pembroke East) goes against the traditional center left vote in Carmarthen to come out for Carwyn Jones. Lets not forget that Carmarthen/Carmarthen West except for one blip has returned a Labour MP for over fifty years despite boundary changes and a persistent Plaid threat. What will be interesting and perhaps revealing is where the loyalty of ex sec. of Carmarthen West Labour Party Nia Griffiths (MP for Llanelli) goes.
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#20 thegnatswatter
It goes to Huw Lewis, as you no doubt already knew. I'd certainly counted her in the 6 MPs supporting Huw in my post last week but she's only "come out" today. Her reasoning? "I've listened carefully to the debate and I have listened to what my local party members are saying - it is clear to me that Huw Lewis is the best candidate to return Labour to winning ways, right across Wales.
“Huw has the drive, the intelligence and crucially the ideas to lead Welsh Labour in a new direction that chimes with what voters are looking for. I've made my mind up based on what I've seen and heard from the campaign, Huw is the one setting the agenda and reaching out to people."
It'd be interesting to know who her second choice would be.
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Message 19....
Irony dear chappie, irony!..or maybe even stretching it,... to sarcasm....in answer to that last line of yours...
'.... If you say Wales had no hand in it why do you think it has to be pushed down our throats, so to speak.....'
Of course Wales, and the Welsh, had deep involvement, but to try raking up a situation from the old days of the region, when there was not the slightest sort of unity, that is until the English unified the region, bringhing in a universal code of law etc, to confirm the existence of a 'nation' is stretching credulity a tad too far.
I seriously doubt there are any people, through any strong relationship, to family, through bloodlines, from those far gone days, and who can truly be assured they have a lineage traceable beyond few generations.
The very best I have heard of is someone who has traced his family back to about 1650, or thereabouts, I do refer in general terms to the ordinary oiks amongst our population, myself included. The more affluent and 'noble' strains have a better chance of supplying such a lineage, as we must surely agree, they being better at record keeping thanks to wealth, influence, and education, which were effectively barred to the ordinary folk..
Prior to that one is fishing in the dark.
So where you can say 'we' had this or that taken away from 'us', in this modern age is pure supposition, and in saying that, I would not be surprised if a glance at YOUR family tree did not throw up incominmg genes from outside of Wales, which also effectively dilutes your argument even futher.
That applies equally to most, if not all of those, who constantly bang on about their Welsh historical antecedency and claimed for heritage and culture.
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22
Mapex55
Looking back on my postings I can't see where I have said anything about this or that having been taken away from us.
Neither have I made comment about mine or anyone elses lineage.
I was refering to the history and the culture of this beautiful and wonderful country I feel so proud to have be born in.
But if you feel obliged to twist my words to you suit your self please feel free.
I doubt whether anyone in England could say the same on lineage mind.
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6 Map - you can try and pretend they dont exist and the whole thing will go away - but the reality is that one of these three will be First Minister of Wales shortly, and as such will be in control of your health, education, transport, etc.
You should take an interest (as I am sure that you actually do).
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21. She's never been keen on 'litterpicking' as an election objective
so I guess it would be Edwina. Will a litter free Wales help child poverty perhaps Carwyn has taken counsel off Plain Jane and intends to
collect and burn our litter in communal braziers to keep chldren and pensioners warm during these winter months? What's next soup kitchens?
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message23...
If you take on the mantle of speaking for the Welsh, as in the extract below...
In my unworthiness, though I do appreciate you think I am worthy of greater things. All I can say to that is, exactly, because 'we' have 'our' own history and culture which predates anything imperialistic English history can give 'us'.
(My apostrophes on the possessives)
...then you should not be so surprised I take the matter into further realms of discourse.
I quite agree that, beyond the English aristocracy, and nobility, with extended family trees and bloodlines, most 'English' would also be hard put to be able to reach back into their real genealogical background.
I was not attempting to twist your words in any way at all, just as I said, expanding the debate somewhat, but if you wish to be one of those who are forever wanting to turn the discussion into conflict, let me not stop you, you will be comfortable, I am sure, joining the ranks with certain other antagonistic persons frequenting this blog.
That you feel proud of what you perceive to be your 'country' is perfectly acceptable, and more or less, the response of any normal Welsh person, but that does not excuse a rather slanted view of the true historical facts that appertain to the region. Or their actual relevance to this year, 2009.
As for beauty, well there again, as the old saying goes, 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder', and although I find Wales a pleasant enough place, there are far more places of greater beauty, elsewhere in Europe, as I am sure others besides myself can tell you.
It's much like the kid saying, 'my dad can beat your dad', purely a matter of perspective, and preference, not fact.
But to recap on lineage, if you were of stock that came with the bundled history of some well documented factual historical figure, ...'Owain Glyndwr'... for example, then you would certainly have the strength of an argument to say 'we', 'our' and 'us' in respect of Welsh history, but unless that is the case, then your argument is based on emotion only.
Hardly a substantive foundation on which to base a Welsh heritage.
That I do not disparage, nor would I want to take from you.
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Penndu #24
Given the almost total lack of interest in this election by the general public, your comment is timely;
the reality is that one of these three will be First Minister of Wales shortly, and as such will be in control of your health, education, transport, etc.
Maybe worth taking a long pause to think about the implications!
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message 24....
My interest gene is defunct, as far as Welsh politics is concerned.
It matters not anyway, as once that referendum is announced, the people will put a stop to it anyway.
So really,the whole matter is one of little concern, and will soon be academic.
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So why do you keep coming on here banging on the state of the welsh devolution gravy train if you've no interest? It doesn't add up.
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29....
It is because it is a GRAVY TRAIN, with few tracks leading to those little side stations where the REAL people of Wales are forced to pay but never get a ride themselves.
My interest in a political Wales ceases immediately I hear the squander-bug rustling through my tax burden, and as it munches away on the funds that should, and could, be used for the benefit of those same REAL Welsh people.
Not to feather the berths of the passengers on that self same GRAVY TRAIN, driven by that Squander-bug, the WAG/Assembly, as it perpetually circulates around Cardiff Bay.
What those wannabee politico's get up to in the Bay of Pigs is so much dross, and a waste of time effort and money.
The whole mess is unnecessary, and what it does get involved in, usually to the detriment of all, can easily be taken on board by the local authorities in the six counties of Wales.
Hell fire! we are talking about a disparate population of approximately 3 millions, which, even if combined into one much smaller area, would not require anything other than Manchester, Birmingham, or Merseyside. handles every day, without the added burden of a over lording assembly to help reduce their individual spending, whilst begging the government for more and more, like the Oliver Twist, or maybe Mickey Mouse outfit this lot are perceived to be, as they increase the take from the people to fund whatever it is they get involved in. Unnecessarily, and invariably, anyway..
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Wow Mappex.... that was a stonker. In light of all the talk about 'Question time' I should like to see something of impact like that post belted out on a sort of 'Question Time Wales' one day. Although no doubt it would be called 'Question Time Cymru' if our beloved BBC CYMRU/wales had anything to do with it :)
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28 Sorry Map, but the referendum will be about whether to increase powers or maintain the ststus quo. So even if the voters say NO (the least likely outcome) there will still be a Senedd and a First Minister - so it is not going to go away if you ignore it.
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mapex55 - yet another post on the subject undermines your claim to have no interest in it.
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30 Six counties of Wales???
Even post 1974 there were 8 - how on earth did you get 6 ??
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Message 32
'....Sorry Map, but the referendum will be about whether to increase powers or maintain the ststus quo. So even if the voters say NO (the least likely outcome)....
Not if I, and many many others have anything to do with it, and believe me there are many just itching to get shot of this rubbish situation.
The present idea may be to go for increased powers, but there are a lot of people who want a 'stay or go' question not a 'stay and get more powers' question.
The fact that those deeply involved for their own ends say that will be the case, is no guarantee that when the crunch comes, that will be tolerated.
Don't think for one minute that they will get away with that, because I can assure you they will not.
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message 34...
Slipped up, typing in the semi gloom of my room. Hit the wrong key and did not check the message before sending it.
May I suggest you ignore such errors, as they really can be seen as errors, or typos.
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33....
Let me make this plain, as you obviously cannot understand English...
I have NO interest whatsoever in who is playing the governance game in the Bay Of Pigs, I have. however, a vested interest in the money expended by that menagerie, which could and should be coming to our local councils, not wasted on grandiose schemes, and pet plans by a bunch of useless wannabe hasbeens and political morons.
My sole reason, as far as this sort of answer is concerned, is to see the back of the whole sad and sorry mess, which came into being on the back of a seriously flawed, and illogical undemocratic referendum result.
There is no sign of any interest by myself in the Assembly/WAG, only in the matter of seeing it offski, and as soon as possible.
Pleased do not join in with the other crowd, who appear to do nothing with their time, only to waste their and my time, trying to challenge my messages for content that just does not appear in them.
Beyond that we should get along just fine and dandy. OK?
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36 - typo noted - I dont pick up people on typos etc but in this case I thought it was deliberate.
35 - Good luck with that - I would not mind if there was an abolition option as I am confident of the result. But seeing as how no one is backing that option, it will not happen.
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message 38...
See how nice you can be when you try, thanking you for your best wishes en passant.
Yes, I am damned sure you are confident of the result, but don't let it get out of control, as someone else has stated, 'it aint over 'til the fat lady sings', and she hasn't chosen what to sing so far.
But... As I also said before, I see it as my task to ensure that the abolition option is placed before the electorate, so no flag waving for the 'increased powers' option just yet. OK!
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message 39....PS...
Forgot to finish the last by saying ... no, no one appears to be backing the 'get out' option, and why is that?
Nothing to do with the fact that the doors are closed to antipathy from my side of the argument, perhaps?
As I have said before, so far, the media, including the BBC, have given hours, days, and weeks of gratis coverage to the Assembly, and all that goes with it.
Yet to the likes of True Wales, a couple of truncated interviews and maybe a few minutes of air time, on the odd occasion.
Not to miss the point, at times which meant, probably, there were 'popular' programmes on the other channels, effectively curtailing any chance of widespread reception of such minimum exposure.
Also don't forget the Assembly/WAG, which scraped in on a very debateable referendum result, has been entrenched in the Bay for ten years, over which time, the totally disintersted majority have had no voice here in Wales.
Don't you think it about time the debate was opened up, and the seeking of further powers etc, put on the back burner, until a FULL and PROPER madate has been given by that majority?
I am not talking about the few thousand who provided the referendum result, but the, almost, fifty percent who never took part.
The 50% that received no indication that what is taking place today was ever to be contenmplated.
The 50% who like I, thought we were talking about an extra large 'county council' sort of arrangement, not a talking shop that has proved itself to be incompetant, and money wasting on a grand scale, doing things that, I am sure, had that 50% been made aware of the intentions, they would likely to have turned out en masse to ensure such practices and plans would never have got past the starting gate.
But whenever the next referendum comes along, if they are foolhardy enough to call it, it will be fiercely opposed, in terms already laid out by myself, and many others, on this, and other blogs.
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So you think for every minute that the National Assembly is broadcast, ie its meetings etc, there should be equal time given to those that oppose its existence? Strange state of affairs, on that basis UK Parliament should balance its coverage of the UK parliament with equal time for those that want to abolish it. Again information is taken as propaganda... what next every appearance from the queen or her family met with equal time given to assorted people who want to abolish the monarchy?
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message 41....
That is a stupid commentary,. over the Dyke there are a dozen or more daily papers all of which, with the exception of one, are at the throat of the government on a constant basis, a opposing voice, exists therefore in England. Every move made by the government is attacked be it sensible or stupid.
Now Lyn, please explain to me where a similar voice for the opposition stance exists in Wales.
There are no newspapers that are antipathetic to the same extent as their English counterparts, there are no magazines that make issue of whatever it is the Assembly gets into, there is no effective television programmes that make an attempt to expound a negative policy towards the Assembly, in a word... NOTHING.
So for once in your life cease being an apologist for the machinationary workings of the Welsh political establishment, and try looking at the matter from a stance of being stymied, frustrated and excluded, as many do, who contribute to this and other blogs.
The insertion of the abrasive subject matter of the monarchy is another one of those in effective but often attempted sidelines that those who have no valid argument slip into a discussion in the hopes their antagonist will be diverted from the main issue.
I do not fall for such tactics I am glad to say.
The matter in hand is the disproportionate amount of coverage given to the 'positive', without exposure of contradictory aspects.
A 'negative' view of devolution, and all it has come to mean, is what I call for.
Once we get a media situation where there is a balancing of Assembly and devolutionary propaganda, for that is what it amounts to despite your protestations, then maybe I and others will shut up, but unless and until, I am afraid you will have to suffer the slings and arrows from our side of the matter.
Because as I see it, we are the only ones currently getting any sort of exposure.
In conclusion, I also point out that the Westminster government does not 'work' the people in such a flagrant fashion as is being done here in Wales by an opposition-less Assembly, using such tactics as the AWC, the WLB, and the perpetual pressures for LCO's etc.
The Assembly, wherein all appear to be of the same mind, which effectively means that those on the outside are voiceless, they/we have no representation inside, nor do we have a public voice outside.
That is totally undemocratic.
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Again you avoid the question. And last time I looked covering a body does not make you pro or anti it. What you seem to want is a barrage of opposition to the existence of the body, the National Assembly for Wales. Well your view is that of a minority, a minority that is growing smaller. Yet you seem to want wall to wall coverage of opposition to the body and matched time for every time the National Assembly is mentioned. This is just a tad unrealistic and unreasonable.
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#43 Lyn_Thomas wrote:
This is just a tad unrealistic and unreasonable.
What are you thinking of map, not democracy, not freedom of expression, not freedom of speech, ..... be quiet, be quiet, be quiet, this is Wales, the politics of separation will look after your interests.
Lyn_Thomas, who else would you silence ??????
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43...
I do not avoid the question. I made it quite clear that there is NO antipathy being demonstrated in Wales to the Assembly, ecept for one or maybe two organisations such as True Wales, and those few who manage to bypass what is seen as BBC censorshiop on these blogs, with the occasional written letter objection in what few newpapers exist, that occasionally print that letter.
I am sure you are correct in saying my view is in a diminishing minority, but that is why?
Couldnl't ne something to do with the mass of pro deviolution/Assembly propaganda that is constantly being pushed into the faces of the electorate, with virtually nothing being made available from our side.
Unlike in England where the total press and much of the rest of the media gives constant antipathy to the government.
You can paint the picture as you like, as I see it, the future of Wales is simply bleak under the terms of having a squandering third tier of governance where such is definitely, and demonstrably not required.
All other regions of the UK manage quite adequately without such a third tier (Scotland and NI excepted, but not totally as successful as is constantly bragged about, as time may well show) so if large tranches of the UK territory, and the most densely populated at that, can do it by directly dealing with central government, what the hell is so special about this disparate, and pretty well unbalanced region, that says we must have this nonsense over our heads, and into our pockets.
Try avoiding that, without referring to 'nationalist' rhetoric, and talk of Rugby etc.
Take away those two, and the language, which involves a minority, and what is left to discuss?
But as I have told others who have stressed the same as you, take a look at where the majority of TV aerials are pointing, in other words don't be too cock a hoop about the diminishing number, as I have also said, sooner, hopefully than later, that majority who are currently being swept along on a river of pure crap, about Wales being a nation and such, will turn, as they come realise they are being conned, big time, into allowing a minority with political aspirations to literally thieve their homeland for purely nationalistic, and personal ambitions, far and away distanced from what we in Wales really require.
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Re 42
My sincere condolences to you.
But I'm afraid I do not really understand your viewpoint. The National Assembly exists, devolution has happened, and it gets coverage - of course it does.
Why would a small cabal such as True Wales deserve anything like equal coverage? Your point about newspapers in England doesn't make any real sense either, I'm afraid. These are privately owned, and they can do what they like. I'm not aware that any of them, however, are campaigning to abolish Westminster.
Re 44
Stonemason,
You do your arguments no good when you write silly things like this post, and you know it. Are you really saying that for every bit of news coverage the National Assembly gets you want True Wales or some other fringe group to be given their five minutes. Is that really what you think? I think you should explain.
Somebody mentioned the monarchy. Good to see that they've not changed a bit - was it the parasitical Grand Old Duke of York who over the weekend came out in support of bankers and their obscene bonuses??!!
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#46 FiDafydd ....
There is nothing silly about democracy, freedom of expression and freedom of speech.
If the system prevents any single voice from the democratic process, the system is flawed, there must be a place for mapex to speak, if you fail mapex, you fail democracy......
... who will protect the little people.
... not those with an agenda.
Sorry FiDafydd, it is more important for you to protect mapex's freedoms than those of any majority.
via an internet cafe having WiFi and excellent coffee.
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Re 47
Again, you suggest that people have said what they didn't. When have I said that mapexx or anyone else hasn't the right to express their opinions - even if I'm exasperated by them? Are you now saying that mapexx should be given his five minutes every time the Assembly's Education Committee's deliberations have been given air time. You are talking in meaningless generalities that do not make any coherent point. Unless you can do so, how are we to know what you really mean or want?
If you all feel disenfranchised because all the main parties now accept the reality of devolution and growing support for extra powers, then you should stop whining and start organizing. Repeating yourselves on here will get you nowhere.
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I thought I was clear....
Anyone who wishes to express support or objection to any political motion must be provided with the means to do so; else democracy will be lost.
No generalities, "any political motion". Maybe the problem is everything seems to be in a rush, no time to stand and stare, the AWC, as an example, unfortunately did not meet the criteria for protecting democracy because it chose a very limited format.
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Stonemason I would silence no one, on the other hand with your one person veto you would silence a nation. But the idea that every time there is a news report or a coverage of a debate on from the National Assembly that a right of reply should be given to those that oppose the existence of the National Assembly is ludicrous. This is what you and Mapex seem to be suggesting, please correct me if I am wrong. If so news reports would go on 24 hours a day and report nothing.
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Re 50
I've tried very hard to get an answer to that, but to no avail. All I get in return are pretty meaningless generalities.
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Occasionally the voice of one can be louder than the mob, it does depend on what is being said.
In Wales it is difficult to be heard when the mob crowds out an opinion, because it is not ....... orthodox.
I opposed the "Housing lco", not because it was a child of the Assembly but it would have taken away freedoms held by people East of Offa's Dyke, my voice was silenced by the mob ...... others listened.
Does it matter that important issues take time, in a democratic society, I don't think so, except you think otherwise, why is that Lyn_Thomas why the rush to legislate .....
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#51
meaningless generalities FiDafydd, an interesting take on someone else's opinion.
There was I thinking it was specifically about "Freedoms" in Wales.
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messageb 50...
It would appear Lyn you have difficulty in absorbing a concept that is crytsl clear.
I am NOT saying that there should be tit for tat response to whatever goes on in Cardiff Bay.
Waht I AM saying is, since the warped 1997 referendum that undemocratically brought that nonsensical establishment into being, there has been no or extremely little, public debate regarding the Assembly, its existence or future.
What we have had is a perpetual outpouring of the likes of Tomorrows Wales, the AWC's restricted agenda, the constant heavy handedness of the WLB, and all the rest of the Welshification process that has got under way.
AS any silly fool can see, the overwhelming majority of the population of Wales has shown no interest in all of this.
They have resolutely refused to play the game, and the main reason is so damned obvious it should have been taken into consideration as soon as the 1997 fiasco was ended, and a new referendum immediately called.
Then a far more strident and all covering publicity blanket thrown over Wales, so that the people could begin to understand what abstaining or refusing to vote meant for the future.
This constant publicty for increased powers is not a valid demand because the population of Wales never gave an proper mandate for the existence of the Assembly, never mind the increase in powers being asked for.
We were simply sweept aside as soon as the Cardiff Bay arrangement got under way, I am saying we need to retrun to a referendum with FULL and OPEN publicity for both sides of then argument.
And as soon as possible, not have to wait until the gravy train brigade deem it convenient, or auspicious to have it.
When I made an earlier message it was to piont out that there has been virtually NO debate whatsover on the validity of the Assembly, only to discuss, in closed sessions, and the AWC was effectively a closed session, wherever it turned up, the feelings of the, in the main, committed, as to increasing powers to the assembly.
What about the uncommitted? where is our AWC. our Debating sessions on what may be OUR demands?
There has been NO similar sessions, open or closed, that the Assembly should have established, and at the same level of costing as those others, the AWC and TW, that had a remit to discover the truth in regards the existence of the Assembly, that the voters could make their own feelings known about.
The funding of these propaganda outfits was, and is, a disgrace, and are a serious blot on the landscape of Welsh politics, and will remains so, until the other side of the coin is opened up for debate,with the question ...
...."should the assembly continue?" ...the only item on the agenda, a fixed remit for our side of the matter, for a change.
In Westminster there is a dichotomy of opinion and diverse points of view, across the political spectrum, all under the full gaze of a critical media 'fourth estate', here in Wales little is seen as different between one AM and another, they call themselves PC or Llafur, with a sprinkling of independents a Tory or few, and a half a dozen Lib dems (if that even) but where is the strident policy making, where in fact is the countervoice to it all.
No critical 'fourth estate' in Wales to pick over the bones of the what the Asembly throws out,....just NOTHING, as I said before.
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Re 53
...whether because you choose not to, or perhaps because you cannot, you refuse to be specific. Because of this, I still have no real idea what it is you're asking for.
"...meaningless generalities FiDafydd, an interesting take on someone else's opinion."
You have to admit, Stonemason, you've had some interesting and colourful (though not as colourful as some, some you've always preferred to leave unchallenged) 'takes' on my opinions over the last few months - so the moral high ground you've decided to inhabit is rather crowded, don't you think!
It is certainly no answer.
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Re 55
No specifics then, Stonemason?
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#56, busy with the petitions at the moment; they will address many of my concerns relating to democracy.
via a dongle in red rose country.
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Re 57
I'll guess you'll have to leave us in the dark then - the dark, dark world of generalities.
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