Game up or game on?
There will be no campaigning in the race to succeed Rhodri Morgan until midday tomorrow - well, officially at least.
But do me a favour. Don't miss tomorrow's Good Morning Wales.
Albert Owen MP will be in the Carwyn Jones corner. Sian James MP - whose constituency postcode is, of course, SA - will not be in the corner of the AM who shares her postcode. She's in the Huw Lewis corner.
Can we bet the third corner will be filled very soon? Will Edwina Hart be in the race or not? Let's put it like this. She left the special meeting in Transport House this lunchtime in a taxi. I happened to spot the last letters of the registration number - UP.
Game up? No. Game on.
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~12~RS~)
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And our undemocratic democracy will enable just a few thousand, not the electorate as a whole, to anoint, or appoint the next First Minister. I thought things like this only happened in a dictatorship, almost there obviously .........
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Betsan... I regret to say I will be in France for the next week and a half, and will miss the programme, as I will be en route for Dover.
( I am ever so pleased to announce)
That said, I really could not care less who becomes the new leader, but I would request one thing from him or her... please do not approach me for any input, you will get the height of abuse for your pains.
I have enough of a problem dealing with the Westminster regime, without the added brain taxing burden of a worthless mini Westminster, here in Wales.
I have already spent the last decade trying to fathom out why we have been saddled with this shirallee down in the Bay.
It would be so nice, and relieving, to return from France to find it was all a bad dream, instead I will have to face a recurring nightmare.
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Re 2 Absolutely fascinating........I don't think. The only recurring nightmare in Wales is Ma Pexx and her ramblings
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"Betsan... I regret to say I will be in France for the next week and a half, and will miss the programme, as I will be en route for Dover."
How interesting. Any more thrilling gems like that, or are you clean out of scintillating political commentary for the day? At least Stoney has his surrealism to keep him going.
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Stonemason,
How did John Major become the Britsh PM?
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Re 5
Yes, extraordinary isn't it?!
And Gordon Brown? Still, it reinforces our views about the shower that is Westminster.....democratic??!!
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mesaage 3.... just before I leave,
This rather weird sort of a female, descibed on my birth certificate as male, would dearly love to demonstrate just how much male 'she' is, care to call me a girl to my face?
message 4...
...and what sort of scintillating comment do you call that then?
I have my Toyota to keep ME going, but I will let Stoney answer for himself.
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#5 when "ianapharri" wrote.....
"How did John Major become the Britsh PM?"
.....he could have listed many more, including the latest at Downing Street. How democratic is a coalition is an unanswered question, there is a case for outlawing this political option, demanding minority government where the electorate failed to elect a majority .
And FiDafydd, lets remind readers that your party needs a dictatorship in which to apply its economic preference; Plaid shy away from saying it but they can only implement their dream of "decentralised socialism" if the existing political system is completely replaced, I make that a dictatorship.
Democracy was hard won, it's not for the likes of any coalition or minority to destroy our plural society.
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Hi map ... I'm not interested in the roadway, I haven't read what he wrote since he indicated we are part of his studies.
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8 SM to summarise what you are saying:
1 + 1 = 5 therefore the truth is 9
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Betsan,
Is there any truth in the rumour that Rhodri will be appearing soon on Pobl y Cwm???
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penddu, you cannot apply a single economic or single social system unless you remove the existing, this is simple logic, 1 + 1 does in fact = 2 .
Plaid wishes to replace our current plural socio-economic democracy with its own version of socialism/communism (decentralised socialism), a fact for all to see.
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Re 12
"Plaid wishes to replace our current plural socio-economic democracy with its own version of socialism/communism (decentralised socialism), a fact for all to see."
- all who are paranoid of course. It's cloud cuckoo land and Montana rolled into one!
But if this is the level of understanding and debate that Plaid are up against, we should have an election every year.
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12 SM - Plaid have a vision which they call community based socialism (as opposed to the 1980s 'Statist' model, but nowhere in any tiny part of Plaid Cymru has anyone suggested that this vision (as vague and meaningless as it is) would be achived by anything other than democratic means.
So I suggest that you get new batteries for your calculator.
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2
Excellent, we have a week and a half to have some decent discussions amongst those who are able and willing to engage in a civilised discourse.
It will also be good to see the English language being correctly used.
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Betsan,
Why on earth is Dragon's Eye starting so late? The Assembly is back, we have had the Labour Party Conference, the First Minister of Wales has announced he is stepping down, a Leadership contest has started and no sign of Wales's so called flagship political programme for another week. Who decided the programme wasn't needed until the middle of October? All this was utterly predictable. BBC Wales falling down on the job here, a once in a decade political event and we are all having to tune in to 'Sharp End'.........
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penddu I have to question the logic that you are applying.
First, you admit that "decentralised socialism" relates to the 1980s 'Statist' model, which remains to this day as part of the Plaid constitution, though you disparage it as "vague and meaningless".
Second, you offer a new socio-economic label, "community based socialism" that is not found in the constitution of Plaid, as a seemingly softer option.
Third, you commend the new socio-economic proposition because it will be "achived by democratic means".
There is a "but" penddu, "but it displaces the pluralist system we have now", completely, the two systems cannot sit side by side. And this is the nub of it, although you wrap the new socio-economic order (I'm not sure order is the correct term) in a warm blanket called democracy, in fact by the state directing the economy by constructing a single model, it remains statism.
I have nothing to say in answer to your verbal abuse FiDafydd.
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Re 17
Because you know that what you say - sadly - is nonsense.
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Re 17 again
Stonemason,
Could I ask you a serious question? Why is it that you never seem to be the slightest bit offended by mapexx's abusive language and strongly charged personal insults? Is it just because this abuse is aimed at your opponents in most of the debates on this blog?
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FiDafydd
I refer you to your "cloud cuckoo land", it brings absolutely nothing to a discussion. What does Returnee mean when she writes "It will also be good to see the English language being correctly used."
Two comments comprising insults, I'm just not interested in exchanging insults, there are other things to do ..........
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Where is Karl the Bookie when you need him ??
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17 - I can not see how you can arrive at your totally illogical conclusions. You are twisting hidden meanings into their vision just because you can not accept that they see a different future than you do - that is why they are a political party - to promote a policy.
But Plaid are a fully democratic party - much more so than Labour & Conservatives - you are just cluthing at straws.
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19 While hardly ever agreeing with Mapexx, I always ignore his insults and abrasive manner - if he wants to show himself up for the petty bully he is that is up to him.
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Re 20
I'm sorry, but cloud cuckoo land sums up exactly your description of how Plaid would govern an independent Wales. It's nonsense, and there's nothing else to be said.
It's interesting, however, that you are incapable of commenting on mapexx's outrageous behaviour, whilst accusing others of the same thing - when there really is no comparison. It's really rather revealing.
I think we're in for an interesting few weeks, though if I were a Labour supporter I'd be a bit disappointed with the choice. But, then again, what do I know, I never understood why Rhodri was (apparently) so popular.
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No.20
TheStonemason: "I'm just not interested in exchanging insults..."
It's certainly true that you, Mapexx and others of your ilk don't like to exchange insults, preferring instead to dish out insults to others and cry like babies when they retaliate.
It's called hypocrisy, which forms the basis of most of your "comments", my friend.
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I do not understand Stonemason’s argument. If the majority of the people vote for a party that seeks to change the political system then that is democracy! An undemocratic system is on that prohibits change. As a republican I would theoretically be excluded from the House of Commons and the national assembly because I am expected to swear allegiance to the Queen and her heirs. Although for some reason (guess) members of the Northern Ireland Assembly do not. Either being a Republican is a legitimate position or it is not. I was one of those who promoted decentralised socialism through the National Left in the eighties. It was an attempt to bring democracy closer to the people by putting power where it was most effective.
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I have just heard a whisper (could be wild speculation/wishful thinking) that Labour executive will not accept Huw backing himself - and they are expecting 6 others...... anyone know better???
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Penddu #22
Sorry to butt in but - you can't be allowed to get away with that comment.
Plaid's vision for Wales set out in their constitution is one of "decentralised socialism"
A decentralised socialism system is a defined as a Socialist Economy consisting of;
Worker-owned cooperatives, federated into large enterprises and syndicates, selected infrastructure monopolies, "federated planning"
with open markets in retail sectors.
All overseen and controlled from a dictatorial centre, whose authority has to be absolute, or the system will collapse into a chaos.
A nightmare of State Control - which in a free democratic system with personal freedoms and multiple political visions, is unworkable and will rapidly break down.
So of course while you are right to say presently Plaid are a fully democratic party.
They have no choice but to behave as such while seeking power in our multi party system.
Without Revolution, which implies popular support, access to the levers of power cannot be achieved by anything other than democratic means.
However once elected in order to implement the "Decentralised Socialist State" they dream of, they will have to replace our current democratic system, with a Soviet or Chinese style version.
Not quite the Democracy with all the rights and freedoms we have come to enjoy is it.
You are also right to say they see a different future than you do - that is why they are a political party - to promote a policy. and they have a right to present that vision to the people.
They should also have a duty not to misrepresent their vision.
But in socialist politics, misrepresentation is the only way to sell the horror.
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Interesting Penddu. Tell us more when you hear !!
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MasterAgreeable #25
There is a big difference between attacking an idea, and the person.
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Penddu #27
Does this mean, perhaps, that the Labour executive want to widen the field.
Either, to find a capable candidate - or - They have a candidate in mind who has so far not come forward.
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"Labour executive will not accept Huw backing himself"
It dosen't look good for him if he can't get six nominations without counting himself and his wife, but even the hint of a stitch-up would be very damaging for the party.
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penddu, you feign misunderstanding I am sure .....
Where does Plaid explain to its members, and the electorate, that acceptance of its socio-economic model requires that the pluralist model in existence today would need to be replaced in its entirety by "decentralised socialism", or any other label to describe it.
Personally I do not believe Plaid has the "decentralised socialism" model, documented in any way that the little people, like me, are able to read, understand, and question its methods and conclusions. Currently the Plaid socio-economic model is little more than smoke and mirrors; in view of the absence of any public review of the model it is little more than a propaganda sound bite, very difficult to regard as democratic or in fact regard as honest.
On the question of insults .....
Not many weeks ago Betsan wrote "play the ball not the man", I'm not perfect but am trying to follow the spirit of the sentiment.
So "FiDafydd" and "MasterAgreeable", whatever, I will not respond to your insults, not interested, life is too short.
glynbeddau, it is difficult to vote for something that is akin to an iceberg, having 90% hidden from view, in the case of "decentralised socialism" it is only the title that is visible at this moment.
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25 & 30
I think this is the key. There has been far too much personal abuse (I try to refrain, but am sometimes goaded) and far too little looking at actual issues.
We now have a week when sane debate can prevail.
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Yeah Returnee - I'm guilty as any but perhaps we can establish a pattern before the maniac returns...
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Stoney - Plaid Cymru has been publishing economic policy papers and manifestoes since the early 70s at least. The actions of current (Plaid) economic Minister are something to judge them by.
Shhh! No one tell him of the secret 5 Year Plan to turn Wales into a Pol Pot-style rural agrarian utopia (we are already two years in).
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33, 34, 35
Stonemason,
I rubbished your idea of how Plaid would run Wales - but you see this as a personal insult. Strange then that you find mapexx's interventions acceptable, as your silence more than implies.
I agree - let's make the most of it! Has Carwyn still not committed?
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Folks, I am a tad concerned that there seems to be a lot of kerfuffle about mapexx. I could understand this - but given that he is actually out of the country it seems in danger of falling into the 'bald men arguing over a comb' trap.
Or maybe I am mixing him up with somebody else ?
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As it appears we are all guilty - :)
So - we should not pick on an absent member, - who to be fair, is guilty in the main of robust response to others insults, serious misrepresentations, or deliberate provocation.
Having been subjected to the unpleasant personal attacks, and derogatory statements, some of the contributors to this blog specialise in.
I understand the temptation to express oneself with brutal frankness.
So as we are all agreed - lets behave ourselves - do you agree FiDafydd?.
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YnysEchni, I am afraid I would disagree with you in terms of on-line Plaid documents, I cannot judge printed papers as they are not available. The only reference to "decentralised socialism" is in the Plaid constitution, without prejudice, I look forward to reading publicly available documents if they were made available. The actions of IWJ cannot be used to judge the Plaid socio-economic model because we have nothing to make a comparison against.
Your "5 year plan ..... ", I am not looking for what is not there, rather what is there but not visible.
FiDafydd, go back over the comments on this thread, you did write ....
"I'm sorry, but cloud cuckoo land sums up exactly your description of how Plaid would govern an independent Wales. It's nonsense, and there's nothing else to be said."
..... no counter argument, only your "nothing else to be said".
Notice I haven't responded in kind .....
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Breaking news Betsan the Assembly had a visit by the Speaker of the House of Commons last Wednesday, there's more to just The Welsh Government to comment on!
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Betsan,
Whilst not a regular blogger, mainly due to the overt agression of some parties on here, I wish your meaningless blog (in terms of the real world that these lads carp on about so much) the very best of luck.
I have engaged in tit-for-tat I won't deny that but always after provacation or in the face of blatant stupidity in some of the comments.
Lads, good luck with Mapexx et al, and see ye on the other side.
I quit!
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"I have engaged in tit-for-tat I won't deny that but always after provacation or in the face of blatant stupidity in some of the comments."
Ah, that excuse beloved of schoolboys down the generations !!
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Oh goody, let's all be polite and civil? I love it. Now we're all being thoughtful and polite, Plaid is never gonna be a political contender outside of the Welsh speaking heartlands, is it?
Why not think along American lines? Would those of you, who think of yourselves as the righteous owners of Cymru, the indigenous Cymraeg, consider this, would you like a reservation or tribal land?
The native Americans are making loads of Dollars building huge unregulated ( by American laws ) casinos.
What if the British state, reserved Anglesey for you, would you like that? Seriously, what would you do with it?
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Before West-Wales & TheStonemason burn out their stunted, Conservative imaginations trying to invent the worst possible bogus interpretation of Plaid's Decentralist Socialism, purely to discredit the party, let's point them or anyone else in the direction of the facts...
For further reading:-
Tanner, R., 'Community Socialism' Welsh Nation, 24-30 October 1975
Cooke, P., 'Decentralism, Socialism & Democracy' Radical Wales, No. 5, Winter 1984
Mainwaring, L., 'Why Decentralised Socialism?' Radical Wales, No. 11, Summer 1986
Totally misrepresenting a rival party's ideology hardly contributes to mature debate. Stonemason famously doesn't have a clue as to what Decentralised Socialism is, and has clearly derived perverse pleasure from parading his ignorance re the matter on this blog in the past.
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I should also direct West-Wales & TheStonemason to the writings of G.D.H. Cole (1889-1959) & Raymond Williams (1921-1988) if they have any interest in knowing what they're talking about re Plaid Cymru's intellectual heritage.
Beyond that, while the pair of you are spouting utter tosh in references to dictatorships & Communism (which clearly demonstrates neither of you has even the vaguest conception of the dictionary definition of the word decentralism, let alone the fact that in reference to Socialism it refers to non-statist & democratic, community solutions), you should know that if you want to tout any boogie-man of the purist expressions of the forms of socialism which inspired Plaid's thinkers, you'd have to be referring to Anarcho-Syndicalism & Guild Socialism.
Penddu ought to be aware of the fact that Plaid's commitment to Decentralised Socialism, far from being a liability or a fanciful footnote to its ideology, is what should actually permit Plaid's vision of Wales to accommodate his own 'Grŵp Hydro' sympathies. (Although that would depend on the community he was rooted in, I guess.)
Plaid's decentralism, if it was ever given chance to flourish, would permit Monmouth to express its politics quite at variance to Newport's, just a little while away, and would permit & empower any community; be it in the rural north, or the post-industrial south, to self-organise politically and give fruition to its own political desires.
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Reading around the insults of rhywun-arall at #45 and #46 .....
The references are not Plaid documents, the various works are produced by left wing radicals such as found with the Socialist Workers Party; the writers are interesting, G.D.H. Cole didn't quite tip into Marxism preferring the warm blanket of the cooperative movement, Raymond Williams on the other hand was the woolly cultural commentator who tripped into and out of Marxism, neither were members of Plaid to my knowledge and I do not believe they have been adopted by Plaid as party commentators.
Whilst your comments are interesting there remain two unanswered questions .....
1. Where has Plaid documented its proposal for Decentralist Socialism for all to see, without prejudice ?
2. How does this new socio-economic order fit with a pluralist society we have in the United Kingdom, that is how does "Centrica plc" sit with Decentralist Socialism, as a shareholder I have no wish to relinquish my investment ?
The philosophical reference that I have read and understood relating to Decentralist Socialism is to be found at .....
" http://www.cooperativeindividualism.org/borsodi-ralph_decentralist-manifesto.html "
..... authored by Ralph Borsodi, it is succinct in its explanation of where I believe Plaid intends to take Wales, Borsodi's statement .....
The minority of concerned and thoughtful teachers and writers, of poets and preachers, of artists and scientists, of physicians and lawyers, who constitute the real leadership of any society, must be. reborn.
The three word introduction, Borsodi's "The minority of" disenfranchises the majority, a little like the middle ages monarchy.
I am sorry "rhywun-arall", but until Plaid publishes its intentions with sufficient detail that allows understanding and debate, I refer you to George Orwell's Animal Farm.
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Its about time that Wales was represented by capable intelligent people. Several of our Ministers in Cardiff do not reflect the stature, or ability of Office. I do hope the next round of Ministers and in particular the First Minister will be a big departure from some of those who have gone before. Its about time Wales became pro-active NOT re-active. We are 3rd Class citizens in the U.K..
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If you read the comments it is obvious there are two camps, "the Nationalists" versus "the rest", it is also obvious to this humanist "the rest" are working together in an informal alliance, and doing rather well.
Is it time "the rest" blog alliance started talking to their politicians as there is an enormous mileage outside the Nationalist agenda, with the Tories winning the next election it is absolutely essential that "the rest" work with Parliament as a political team to get "the best" for Wales, the Nationalists are out of the game having been give the "black spot" for "services to irrational representation of the people".
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And so say all of us, that's the rest "white rabbit".
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Interesting about Ralph Borsodi Stoney - I'd never heard of him but just read his Wiki - seems like a good bloke - however:
1) I don't think he claimed to be a socialist and
2) He certainly never spoke on behalf of Plaid Cymru
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Stonemason and West-Wales seem to be suggesting that unlike the people who developed decentralised socialism within Plaid Cymru they know what they meant. In the debates that were held within and outside the National Left what was clear to me was that we rejected not only Centralism but also the arrogant belief that the State had all the answers. The late Gwyn A Williams who was at the forefront of this described this as a form of libertarian-Marxism.
Grumpy-white rabbit is right that this debate seems to be between the Nationalists and others. However he what he calls the others are actually centralist (I hesitate to call them British Nationalists because this has been besmirched and there are too many vile insults from right wing bloggers and I’m not joining in). And it shows how the centralist of all colours prefers to see Wales suffer under a Tory government rather than a progressive left of centre Independent Nation.
The arguments put against any progressive policy by the right reminds of an ex tutor of mine “Socialism means more freedom not less).
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Ralph Borsodi, an agrarian "Utopian" thinker; as an outsider it is my opinion that the document link at comment #47 is as good a description of the Plaid Decentralist Socialism as any offered, more importantly it is readily available.
Your points at 2) is the issue, it is a Plaid definitive document explaining Decentralist Socialism, written and approved and published by Plaid, that the electorate need to make a valued judgement. Anything less is too little.
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http://www.plaidcymru.org/content.php?nID=44;catID=6;pubID=205;lID=1
There's an economic paper there Stoney for starters.
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#54
I have all the downloadable documents Dewi, thanks all the same.
No reference to "Decentralist Socialism" .....
..... and this is my point, I cannot read that document and say, "yes its a Plaid example of "Decentralist Socialism" in action", this is what I think about it.
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Entertaining as this is, what relevance does it have to the issue at hand - the election of a new leader for the Labour party in Wales?
As ever though I note that Stonemason continues in his fantasy, aided by West-Wales that Plaid is somehow planning a dictatorship - please supply the evidence.
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Hello Lyn Welcome back :)
The Plaid apologists and various left wing Nationalists certainly need a little support here, not putting forward a coherent case at all.
If Plaid are proposing "Decentralised Social" system for Wales, then that is described in #28.
If that is not what is meant, then tell us what is planned.
But Decentralised Socialism is still Socialism!
Quoting the writings of obscure radical socialist thinkers and academics does not help.
There are thousands of academics and activists struggling to devise a mechanism to make the Marxist dream work, but none deal with the central problems of any Marxist system;
1/The deterioration of the quality of life for the majority.
2/If individual freedoms, of choice or expression, are allowed, the system fails.
If you have a Socialist system then you must have Central control, basic freedoms and individual opinions must be subordinated to the collective, or it won't work.
The more radical the system, the more draconian the control.
We have all heard glynbeddau tutors comment at #52 Socialism means more freedom not less and we have all seen where socialism in extremis leads.
However back to the thread.
To quote the "White Rabbit" above #49;
If you read the comments it is obvious there are two camps, "the Nationalists" versus "the rest".
The Labour supporters seem to be absent, or at least not showing much interest in who is to replace Rhodri.
In fact there seems little interest in that across the board.
Possibly the Leprachaun at 48 has part of the answer:
Its about time that Wales was represented by capable intelligent people. Several of our Ministers in Cardiff do not reflect the stature, or ability of Office..
He is right there is a decided lack of talent in Welsh politics.
The major devolved functions are poorly administered, with subsequent deterioration in delivery. Money is being squandered, Welshman is being set against Welshman. (note the comments here).
The problem is not just the people - it is obvious that the structure and procedures of our devolved system are flawed, that needs to be revisited and corrected.
So where are the labour supporters, what is their take on this passing on of the crown. Where is the Vision have they all given up and shifted allegiance?
For me it matters little - we have a general election next year, an Assembly election the year after.
Across Europe public opinion is shifting away from the left.
I'm more interested in how Cameron deals with the Lisbon issue - than who leads the Labour party in the Senedd.
The real question for us, is can Welsh Devolved Government survive, unless Welsh Politics sorts itself out and AM's up their game - its unlikely.
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No fantasy #56 Lyn_Thomas, I would definitely call it a fraud, all it would take is a Plaid document to explain the meaning of "Decentralist Socialism", and there would be an honest explanation.
The election is otherwise, Huw Lewis would be the electorates choice, a man to take away the comfort zone and put the electorate at the centre of his political life, much as the David Cameron has with the Conservative Party, there could be common ground to work from.
Unfortunately the WAG has not impressed David Cameron, so he and his would have much work to do, dumping the Nationalists could be a step in the right direction.
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Yet again West-Wales, you're misrepresenting Plaid, whether out of utter ignorance or sheer devilment. Why are you even waffling on about Marxism?! Nobody ever said anything about Marx, Plaid Cymru included. Labour might have arisen out of Marxist ideology, but Plaid Cymru's ultimate vision emerged from entirely different strains of Socialist thought.
Anarcho-Syndicalism & Guild Socialism are forms of LIBERTARIAN SOCIALISM, and are composed as completely alternative models of Socialism to that of MARX. Marx didn't invent socialism, and never had a monopoly on the concept. Marx had already stolen ideas from the early Anarchist thinkers like Proudhon & Bakunin. Both Anarcho-Syndicalism & Guild Socialism are early 20th Century attempts to revise models of socialism closer to the protean Socialist models of thinkers such as the Welsh radical thinker and Co-operative Movement pioneer Robert Owen (1771-1858).
For Anarcho-Syndicalism the chief thinker would be someone like Rudolph Rocker (1873-1958), and for Guild Socialism, someone like G.D.H. Cole, as mentioned above - so unless you have something to say about Rockerism or Coleism (which are merely points of inspiration for Plaid's Decentralised Socialism anyway), please just save yourself further embarrassment.
You might think these thinkers are obscure, but perhaps so is the intellectual heritage of Libertarian Socialism more generally; ultimately so obscure that people like yourself think socialism is an intrinsically Marxist concept, which is grossly naive.
You're clearly not very well read on the development of socialism as an ideology so please waffling about Marxism when Plaid ISN'T Marxist, never has been, and surely never will be - you're only betraying the sad limits of your political understanding.
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I will agree with Stonemason on the point that Plaid hasn't made a great deal of effort to share its definition of Decentralised Socialism with the electorate; a problem I hope it rectifies ASAP.
Personally, I'd love to see Plaid sponsor a Youtube documentary about its vision, explaining both where it takes its inspiration from, where it might have tackled Wales' problems differently in the past, and where it hopes to go with such a vision for Wales.
Decentralised Socialism, unlike Marxism, is self-contained and suitable for micro-economic applications within a broader Capitalist context (where Marxism presses for a grotesque state of permanent revolution, aiming to conquer whole continents and beyond because wholly 'Nationalised' economies form as unstable bubbles otherwise) - like Libertarian Socialism more generally it enables Socialism to flourish democratically within pocket communities, especially where they focus around large, productive, specialised industries. Decentralism enables a range of Socialist solutions to be applied in different communities across Wales; it's a surgical instrument enabling policies to be implemented specifically where they're needed - and I believe such local focus could be critical to tackling issues such as Wales' poverty hot-spots. As I said earlier, within Plaid's vision, Monmouth would have some freedom to pursue its own distinct political destiny from Newport (and probably would owing to the different socio-economic & industrial needs of the two regions).
Critically different to Labour's traditional vision of Socialism is that Plaid's is not Statist, and sees the community as the natural home of Socialism, because it is the natural level at which people are able to self-organise, & such freedom maximises participation in civic life. In such contexts, 'community' is not only defined as practical & desirable subdivisions of councils, but as places of work too. (Although Plaid clearly shows long-term commitment to state projects such as funding of Healthcare & Education - there is clearly scope for elements of decentralisation to take place within both fields.)
One thing I certainly hope Plaid pursues is the potential for Syndicalisation. I was very pleased to hear that the new Cardiff branch of John Lewis offers all its staff shares in the company. There is very sound logic in workers having shared interests in the company they work for, both in terms of motivation, participation & shared rewards from shared efforts.
Syndicalisation, rather than Nationalisation is often a far better route for socialist industries and nations as a whole. D.J. Davies, for example, never wanted the Welsh mines Nationalised, but wanted them Syndicalised; for there to have been some means of enabling the industry to buy itself out in the names of its employees, (perhaps through some kind of state-facilitated mortgage) rather than increasing the liabilities of the state. Had British Socialism ever been so sensible and ANTI-MARXIST, the whole 20th Century would have turned out very differently. Disruptive strike action would certainly have become something scarcely ever seen - because employees can't strike against a company they collectively own - unlike the self-interests displayed in the usual Capitalist model, Syndicalisation sees these interests balanced naturally between the employees and those of long-term profitability - equilibrium is found at minimal expense to the state.
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Re 59 and 60
I fear your eloquence will be met with the usual closed minds and delusional ideas from Tory, toff supporting British nationalists.
And I've been a marxist all these years without knowing it!!
Someone asked, I believe, whether Raymond Williams had been a member of Plaid, well the answer is yes.
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OK "someone else" at #59
Obviously my use of "Marxism" in the context of Plaids thinking upset you (understandable) - so please reread the relevant bits of my #57 and replace all reference to Marx with Socialist - doesn't seem to change my intended meaning at all.
You comment You're clearly not very well read on the development of socialism as an ideology
Your absolutely right - the amount of material is huge I have a lot of other calls on my time.
My understanding is that socialism has multiple threads, (the point you make) but broadly its any of the various political philosophies that support social and economic equality, collective decision-making, and public control of productive capital and natural resources.
Much deeper and my knowledge of the vast torturous labyrinths of socialist thinking is exhausted.
But if the philosophy you have in mind differs greatly, an explanation would be helpful.
However as I said above; (revised to exclude Marx)
There are thousands of academics and activists struggling to devise a mechanism to make the "socialist" dream work, but none deal with the central problems of any "socialist" system;
1/The deterioration of the quality of life for the majority.
2/If individual freedoms, of choice or expression, are allowed, the system fails.
Probably variations appear every day. Its a problem exercising the minds of many committed social and political academics. (I know a few)
They know the system they believe in and advocate is unworkable but can't find the FIX.
You say Plaid Cymru's ultimate vision emerged from entirely different strains of Socialist thought - but given your constitution talks of "Decentralised Socialism" - and I have given the generally accepted definition above in #28, you say that is not what Plaid is offering.
Ultimately the important thing about this is not the argument about the history of the philosopy, but how what Plaid proposes, improves the prosperity of Wales, and the life of the individual.
So far radical socialist systems have impacted negatively on individual freedoms and the quality of life of the masses.
So - What is on offer - how does it differ from the generally understood idea of "decentralized socialism", and perhaps more importantly can you give examples of countries where Plaids model or something similar is working.
How does Plaids proposed model resolve the problems of all existing Socialist systems set out above is a question that needs an answer, and is obviously an important issue.
To put my concerns into context, my work takes me all over Europe, and frequently into East European countries recovering from the Soviet experiment.
Its a sobering experience.
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"rhywun-arall" I've just seen your #60 - it overlapped my post at #62 you seem to be making an effort to put some flesh on the bones.
I'll read it (without predudice) and comment later.
But thanks for the effort :)
One question - does the philosopy exclude private ownership, of property or business?
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It's amazing how Plaid and Llafur types have the nerve to call the Conservatives toffs. It's only too apparent that this UK region has its version of toffs, Welsh speaking elitists with proper Welsh backgrounds, like Rhodri Morgan. If I'm gonna vote for a toff, they'll have to be an English speaking toff, I've had quite enough (sick to death) of Welsh speaking toffs.
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In 18 months of asking, thank you.
I look forward to reading the definition of Decentralised Socialism, how soon ?
FiDafydd, Raymond Williams, a member of Plaid, such a claim would need far better provenance than yours old chum.
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As far as I am aware private ownership is appropriate, though the preferred option for ownership of industry is worker control, like you have with John Lewis...
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Actually John Lewis doesn't offer staff shares, they are held in trust. The staff become partners of the organisation and elect members to the parliament of John Lewis, who in turn appoint the board. They decide broad policy and employ skilled managers to run the organisation under the direction of the partners. Thus the staff can't sell their stake in the business and neither can they demutualise the organisation.
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Yes, sorry Lyn - I didn't mean to suggest that John Lewis' staff shares policy was an expression of Syndicalism proper! (And I certainly had no idea how its organisation managed that policy exactly.)
I really only mentioned it, in passing, as a recent topical example of employees of any kind having what could be regarded as a 'stake' in the company they work for (illustrating the benefits of this too).
Obviously true Syndicalism, let alone Anarcho-Syndicalism (as seen flourishing in Catalonia between 1936-1939 before Franco sent his soldiers in and caused the carnage that ensued) places far more emphasis on shared employee ownership and control.
I can't really comment on to what extent Plaid sees Syndicalism in its future, but can reliably mention that that's what (via D.J. Davies) Plaid advocated should have been done with the Welsh mines - instead of Nationalisation, and it certainly would have led to a better outcome than Nationalisation. ...I think possibly once the supermarkets have been sorted out on the foreign v. Welsh milk issue, syndicalism could offer a sound structure for the future of the Welsh dairy industry (not strictly the farms themselves, but the dairies & creameries).
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Actually Lyn, having looked up the wikipedia article on it, the John Lewis Partnership is really quite an excellent model, and really isn't a zillion miles off Syndicalism in terms of staff self-organisation and annual profit shares. Beyond that it's clearly doing extremely well, and whatever its model for distributing profit-shares to its employees, the company clearly has sound policies managing its cashflow & interests in investment and expansion. Clearly any John Lewis store is a boon wherever it goes, because unlike companies whose profit shares are gleaned off by big American investment companies etc. they clearly go to their employees and get spent within their employees' local communities etc. So without wanting to sound like an advert, Cardiff is clearly richer for having a branch of John Lewis, rather than any Department store with public stocks & shares.
My only criticism is that as its staff profit shares are linked to salary (not a point I'd criticise per se), clearly London still reaps the lion's share of the dividends as that's where partnership's HQ is - and where its highest paid staff will be spending their salaries & dividends.
Obviously John Lewis is good for the British economy (because its profits are somewhat more retained in the UK economy than those of most similar businesses), but I'd suppose the best possible scenario for the sake of the Welsh economy would be for Wales to have its own version, with its HQ based in Wales (which would have an interest having in branches in England or anywhere else in the world). Clearly the corporate structures of even UK businesses (let alone foreign ones) are a major part of what keeps London rich, and Wales so poor.
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Indeed rhywun-arall - if you look at the John Lewis Website there is a link to an association of companies that are run on a like model... from the Scott Trust that runs the Guardian Newspaper to Tripptree Jam...
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Re 68
Obviously true Syndicalism, let alone Anarcho-Syndicalism (as seen flourishing in Catalonia between 1936-1939 before Franco sent his soldiers in and caused the carnage that ensued) places far more emphasis on shared employee ownership and control.
Talk about anally retentive!!? These Plaidi, Llafur types are egg bound on Dodo eggs!! Don't you over dramatic drama queens realize, that the heady days of Cymraeg dominance in welsh politics is over? No, I doubt if you do!!
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Re 69.
Clearly the corporate structures of even UK businesses (let alone foreign ones) are a major part of what keeps London rich, and Wales so poor.
That isn't quite true, is it? The European Parliament, issues GDP figures throughout the Union. They devide Wales into East Wales, and West Wales and The Valleys. East Wales has GDP above the European average, and above much of the UK. We can understand The Valleys problems, but why Plaid dominated west Wales?
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rhywun-arall ..... I have two scenarios .....
One. Working on my allotment, smallholding, I have developed a new carrot, it grows in a shorter season allowing two crops a year. How do I register my discovery, so that I can earn royalties on its use ?
Two. Working in my workshop I have invented a new game, do I keep its copyright as with the carrot, where do I raise the finance to manufacture my idea and do I have to share my industry ?
Lyn_Thomas, the Scott Trust became "The Scott Trust Limited" during 2008.
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The tourney has shifted from the intangible to the tangible, from "Alice in Wonderland" to rational social options.
Economic philosophy head to head? The socio-economics of the left have foundered in competition with capitalism until now, has anything changed in the world that encourages a resurgence of left wing economics.
How can capitalism compete with the left wing cosiness of rhywun-arall and Lyn_Thomas ? Is there an Achilles heel hidden from view under the trappings of fraternity, why hasn't it happened before, what is the weakness of Decentralised Socialism. ?
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The Scott Trust is still a socially owned organisation - yes there have been some changes but it still exists as a protected organisation.
Stonemason I am not sure everything is patentable, even in this world, so your carrot would be treated as it is now. As for your game, well there you can license it as always.
What I think you are trying to suggest that under a form of decentralised socialism all businesses would be owned by their workers. It has always been stated that small businesses that require the dynamism of one person would remain just that, owned and run by an individual. Once the number of employees goes above a certain number though industrial democracy would be required as that organisation no longer would be a small personal run industry.
As for central regulation of direction, I don't see that as an inevitable consequence, no more than it is now under our mixed system. A regulatory framework yes (as present), quotas and targets set centrally no... that is the antitheses of community socialism.
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I am not trying to say or suggest anything, only asking for clarification.
Back to the "game" business, is my business acquired by my employees even though I have said "No", my employee numbers have grown to "tipping point plus one", how would such a takeover be implemented, in general terms.
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Lyn 75
Still working my way through post at #60 and not ready to comment yet.
But in your #75 you suggest;
Once the number of employees goes above a certain number though industrial democracy would be required as that organisation no longer would be a small personal run industry.
Lets take an example that is often brought up here - the Oil Refineries in Pembrokeshire.
These are simply two of the many processing units world wide owned and operated by the two International conglomerates that use Milford Haven as a terminal and processing centre.
In the overall operation of these business's they are small beer, the big parts are the production (getting the oil out of the ground), shipping (both the crude oil and the refinery products), The Oil Trading Market, and of course distribution and sales.
For these companies walking away from these assets is no big deal - Esso did it in the early 70's and Chevron abandoned the Gulf site (the most advance refinery in the Northern Hemisphere) at the turn of the millennium.
They simply go to a more aminable country and set up shop there!!!
If a Plaid Government decided to enforce some form of workers ownership or your vision of industrial democracy, the Oil Companies would say OK and walk away.
The Workers would then have to run and maintain the place. A weeks supply of Crude costs 1.75 billion, fuel costs 7% of that, maintenance costs are astronomic, the technical skill and knowledge base to run the place comes out of corporate research departments (such intellectual property is jealously guarded).
Crucial decisions what type of Crude run and product to be produced at each refinery has a major impact of profit, these decisions have to be taken weeks and months in advance are made at corporate level by some of the best brains available.
Obviously different refineries are more suited to particular feedstocks or product slate than others - The operation of each refinery is selected so the overall operational output meets National or global needs (and maximises Profit).
Further the operating profits of a stand alone operation of this sort are peanuts, its only as part of the big integrated organisation that profits are made.
Despite the big numbers as a return on capital employed they are only around 5% on a good day.
For the stand alone refinery less than 2%.
(remember over 80% of petrol cost is tax, and UK upstream Tax's draconian total tax on the product is around 90%+)
Lets recognise the intellectual and technical abilities to even make political decisions about such operations are way out of the limited ability of our politicians, and the return on operation will be inadequate to employ the necessary skills to run a one off operation of this sort.
In your Utopian Radical Socialist World how do you intend to deal with that.
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I see your points TheStonemason & West-Wales. Please bear in mind here, I'm discussing Syndicalism, not Decentralised Socialism per se (which clearly has Syndicalism among its sources of inspiration), and as an admirer of the concept of Syndicalism only suggested I'd like to see more made of the idea.
I'm really only suggesting the possibilities for it could/should be explored; obviously Plaid is a mainstream party which is committed to dealing with real-world economics - the crucial issue is that their ideological inspiration from Libertarian Socialism, is no more of a threat than Labour's ideological inspiration has been from more Authoritarian forms of Socialism (Marxism).
Ultimately, both Plaid & the Tories are Libertarians, but idealologically, Plaid has its roots in Libertarian Socialism, while the Tories (especially since the days of Thatcher) have their roots in Libertarian Capitalism - both favour a small state, but Plaid looks to socialist solutions (which aren't necessarily statist/Marxist - but could involve community/syndicalist solutions) where Conservatives favour market solutions (which as experience has proven with the railways, sometimes also eat-up public-funded subsidies themselves) Frankly, there are swings and roundabouts between the two solutions.
Going back to TheStonemason's carrot/game/theoretical patent - but what if, as an ordinary allotment/workshop owner, you didn't have the capital to set up the company your idea could give full fruition to? Plenty of people have business ideas every day, but lack the funds to launch a business with them. No doubt Wales could be a gold mine had its own people the funds to give their viable business ideas fruition.
What if some sort of National Bank, would analyse your business plan and make you an offer; to make you chief stake-holder in a company but would set up a scheme to launch your business as a syndicalised industry - say it would set you up in an arrangement which initially paid staff salaries; a portion of which would buy them shares in the company, before the government loan was paid off through the company's profits - after breakeven your company flourishes. You'd have a business you otherwise may not afford, would be chief/executive-shareholder of it, and would have a committed workforce, who directly benefit from their own ingenuity and efforts within the company through a practically calculated share of dividends. It's not entirely egalitarian, but it is socialist, because it brings the employee into a share of ownership of the means of production - through a system facilitated by the state.
In Catalonia, Anarcho-Syndicalism spread because Syndicalised industries ruined the competative advantage of Captitalist rivals - ordinary buyers would instinctively support all industries claimed to be collectivised - those that weren't collectivised were considered exploitative of their workforce.
Your new industry would also do well against any mainstream Capitalist competition because it would be collectivised. It would have ethical appeal.
Rather like now, I'd look on John Lewis/Waitrose as a better option than Marks & Spencer - because one employs its staff as part of a partnership, the other as a FTSE 100 Capitalist enterprise. One shares profits with its employees (who spend money largely in their home communities), the other sells profit shares to rich investors, many of which will be overseas.
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I should have added TheStonemason, that if on the other hand you could secure a bank loan and set up your company fair enough! - I doubt a Plaid government in an independent Wales would ever even consider touching your set-up (beyond setting rates of corporate tax) unless you ever needed state subsidies, then it might well, and quite rightly I think, start to negotiate its own stipulations, whatever they might be.
I don't see Plaid as an Anti-Capitalist party, but it's less ideologically Capitalist than some of its political rivals have proven to be to date (while Plaid has had scant opportunity in government to publicly sell itself out on that front as the Labour party has). Yet expressions of its own forms of Socialism could sit quite snugly among straight forwardly Capitalist enterprises... John Lewis, as a Worker-Cooperative, sits rather happily in cities across the UK alongside Capitalist ventures selling the same thing...
Whatever radicalism Plaid claims for itself is rather washed out by the time they draft election manifestos, or indeed get so much as a share of government, but no doubt that radicalism, while it survives in their party's intellectual heritage will come to inspire their approach should they ever get more political endorsement and freedom.
The fact of the matter is that as long as ANY UK party is committed to the NHS, or publicly funded education to the tertiary level, road maintenence and refuse collection etc. Such are in their own ways somewhat Marxist (state owned and collectively funded) activities, and few Europeans have much of a problem with that. You should admit however, that so long as the Conservatives support the NHS too, they are essentially supporting a rather Marxist policy; UK healthcare has been Nationalised - and the electorate clearly likes it that way.
So while I shouldn't say Plaid aren't Marxist, the fact is that where they support the NHS, for example, as with all the other political parties that similarly support the NHS; they clearly are. I just point out that the threat of Marxism from Plaid as opposed to any other mainstream UK party is bogus.
Critically, the actual brands of Socialism (the two forms of Libertarian Socialism mentioned above) which did inspire Plaid present potential means of streamlining the state, which I doubt many Tories would object to, nor other Socialists could strictly disapprove of either; through state-facilitated syndicalisation.
Where we see Conservative Libertarian Capitalist attempts to privatise formally Nationalised industries to streamline the state, I'm struck by how much more popular these measures might have been had the resultant private companies taken more of the form of John Lewis - (as Worker-Cooperatives) rather than stock-market floated companies.
Who knows how successfully streamlined a state could become while such streamlining creates worker-cooperatives, like John Lewis, which are entirely compatible within a broader Capitalist context.
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In Slovakia, speak Slovak..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/8282918.stm
Be afraid, be very afraid. Thought the EU was there to prevent this nonsense ? Think again...
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Some of us are deprived, Betsan.
We live north of the Tartan Border, so we cannot receive "Good Morning Wales".
However as an expert commentator on bruising pugilistic events, I look forward to your regular reports.
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MacScroggie - have a look at this..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/8289367.stm
Is it me, or does anyone else envision some 'Presidential Debates' where there are a dozen lecterns, with representatives of main parties from across the British Isles, including Northern Ireland, but with an unlucky thirteenth lectern from which Gordon Brown has absented himself.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4M4KxtT9Oh0
My dear lordBeddGelert, do us a favour mate? John Griffiths, AM for Newport east, who oddly started his maiden assembly speech with......''I'm an Irish Welsh Celt'' nonsense. Is so besotted with his film star good looks and charismatic eloquence, he's launched his vain glorious self on Youtube. If you go to the link, you'll find Griffithes 'Playlist', as his playlist is ALL Welsh language stuff, and considering his anti-English ramblings!!! What kinda stuff is he into?
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=77D63D370147B58A&search_query=john+griffiths+am
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Re 83
"John Griffiths, AM for Newport east, who oddly started his maiden assembly speech with......''I'm an Irish Welsh Celt'' nonsense."
Do people reckon Jack is for real, or just a stuck record?
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rhywun-arall with his "Libertarian Socialism" seems to have quietened the Unionist chattering classes, how soon before "Mason" and "West Wales" realise the wonderful "New World" is in fact just another branch on the evolutionary tree of economics that became redundant during the last century; the examples of egalitarianism such as the "John Lewis Partnership" are examples of niche capitalism that seem to work using a socialist model, in fact the businesses are capitalist with either a profit sharing model for employees or extended partnerships, again working as capitalist units, the wages are sometimes better.
The suggestion that Decentralised Socialism can exist in parallel with capitalism is ambiguous, designed to shift the focus from a deception by Plaid Cymru by the old guard party faithful. Until Plaid clean up their act with a definitive and extended definition of their "Decentralised Socialism" the Nationalists remain Nationalists and their brand of socialism is just that, socialism. Sorry but rhywun-arall speaks for rhywun-arall, with Lyn_Thomas in agreement.
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We have flue in Caerphilly rabbit, plenty of time.
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Back to an old thread:
David Cameron on Scotland on Sunday yesterday - "I want it to deal with the devolved administrations with respect and in co-operation and that's exactly what you would get"
Bang goes another great anti-devolutionist theory. Cameron believes the union can only be preserved through effective devolution.
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86
I'm relieved to know that there is at least one flue in Caerphilly.
By the way, the best Caerphilly cheese I have ever enjoyed is made in Llandewi Brefi, Ceredigion; very much an artisanal product. When did production slip away from its place of origin?
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His Grace and PM in waiting (David Cameron to acquaintances, David to close friends), only states the obvious, for devolution to be successful the five parties must have equality, the fifth party being the British Nation.
He recognises the abysmal design by the Labour intelligentsia failed before it was launched, poor design and pathetic opportunism by Nationalist parties to usurp the will of the people. All is lost for both teams, the majority of people are dismayed by the prospects offered in both camps. Pragmatic politics of the right of centre is taking centre stage in British Politics, regions included, localism approaches, in Wales the people of Gwynedd through "Llais Gwynedd" dismayed by the poor performance have decided to send their own representative to Cardiff Bay, so that
"the needs of this area gets the attention and resources that are needed in order protect and improve the quality of life for the citizens that live and work here.".
Exciting times, people taking charge, displacing our political heroes lol.
Returnee, how else would a Mason refer to his chimney.
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"in Wales the people of Gwynedd through "Llais Gwynedd" dismayed by the poor performance have decided to send their own representative to Cardiff Bay"
Well, the people in Llais Gwynedd have decided to stand for election - the people in Gwynedd have not elected them yrt. Intend I'm willing to make a small wager that Plaid will retain Arfon and Dwyfor Meirionydd next time. Up for it Grump?
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Do you have insider information as a neighbour of Councillor Roberts I wonder. The thought of "Llais Gwynedd", is it translated as "the voice of Gwynedd", I can see it, a small local party with local interests rolling into the Cardiff Assembly with thoughts of neighbours not grand political gestures, the spirit of devolution. He wrote in his blog :
"that the needs of this area gets the attention and resources that are needed in order protect and improve the quality of life for the citizens that live and work here."
If this gets out he might just have a chance.
I'll take your wager, lunch at the top of Snowdon on the looser, "Hafod Eryri" has a small restaurant; I won't be walking though, a train for me.
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"I'll take your wager, lunch at the top of Snowdon on the looser, "Hafod Eryri" has a small restaurant; I won't be walking though, a train for me."
Done...I'd rather a pint in the Old Arcade though....
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rhywun-arall #60 & #78,
Sorry took so long to respond :)
First of all thank you for sensible and intelligent responses
#60 – While I am sure you will disagree I don't think my definition in #28
A decentralised socialism system is a defined as a Socialist Economy consisting of; Worker-owned cooperatives, federated into large enterprises and syndicates, selected infrastructure monopolies, "federated planning" with open markets in retail sectors.
Is a million miles from what you have in mind - the main difference is degree and you see decentralised socialism operating piecemeal, within an established wider Capitalist economy, not replacing it.
More importantly “Decentralised Socialism” is Plaid’s objective as set out in their Constitution, so unless Plaid defines more precisely what they mean, or change the aspiration we must assume it is their ultimate objective.
You describe Worker-owned cooperatives, which possibly you know is a proven, workable, politically acceptable first step.
The problem with implementing socialist ideology is when the first step fails – the Social engineer always decides the only solution is to extend, take more into the collective, - and legislate to put the necessary controls in place.
(You know what I mean, lets not argue about the definitions of what is a Syndicate, a Cooperative, or a collective. They are all forms of communally owned enterprises)
The problem which was at the root of the collapse of the Soviet system, and a major cause of the failure of the Wilson Callaghan regime is that economic enterprises, the Wealth Creators are not there to provide jobs or salaries.
If there is no market for the product, or need for the service. – or – if the cost of operating the enterprise exceeds the benefit or income.
The enterprise must close and people loose their jobs.
Many Nationalised Industries have got themselves into this trap, becoming so bloated with bureaucracy, crippled with union power, and inappropriate manning structures that the cost of running them is unsustainable.
The service they provide becomes less efficient, they no longer meet societies need.
Then the whole thing becomes a political football with increases in funding often seen as the only solution. – The current state of the NHS is an obvious example.
Small scale co-operatives can and do work. Particularly as retail organisations, they can grow large and be successful.
Enterprises which rely on intellectual property, vast high risk cash flows, with low worker to capital gearing, have to rely on entrepreneurs, or market funding.
State enforced Socialism has, and will, always lead to inefficiency and incompetence.
Governments, especially Socialist Governments, put other factors before economic viability.
This is why Labour always fails - why all socialist regimes lead to low standards of living for the population, and frequantly economic collapse, - and why Plaid if adopting a radical socialist approach will also fail, and the people of Wales will suffer.
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