Follow the leader
Let's start with the easy bit: the vast majority of Welsh Labour MPs want to see Carwyn Jones leading the party and leading the country. Before leaving London yesterday I had sixteen names next to his. They come in groups of three and four, they come in individuals who would think twice about crossing the bridge back to Wales if anyone else won. He is the runaway favourite of this crucial group of voters.
"Carwyn is my number one choice" one spiky character is reported to have said. "Edwina is my second. Huw is my fifteenth".
Another physically squirms at the thought of Edwina Hart winning. Her refusal in the past to appear before the Welsh Affairs Select Committee has gone down about as well as an offer from the Shadow Welsh Secretary to scrutinise any measures the Welsh Assembly Government may introduce in future on the Welsh language: "I merely make the suggestion". Cheryl Gillan was accused at yesterday's meeting of the Welsh Grand Committee of a crime we'll call 'trampling willy-nilly all over the legislative rights of the Assembly Government'. Edwina Hart is accused of treating Welsh MPs with disdain. Believe me: big no-nos in both cases.
Paul Murphy and Don Touhig, great friends in and out of parliament, have astounded some of their colleagues by endorsing Edwina Hart's campaign. Stunned is the word for two or three of them. Why on earth have they endorsed her? Well they've made it clear they want her to win because they can and have worked with her and her values are theirs ... I say.
Not good enough for some. For them it's a case of 'what the hell' are they up to. That sort of astonishment tends to bring out conspiracy theories and I heard a few yesterday. Number one: at heart Paul Murphy and Don Touhig hate "the project" (devolution and all it brings with it) and Carwyn Jones is far too closely aligned with "the project" to be trusted. In fact they hate it so much that they've voted for Edwina Hart because they think she's the most likely to make a mess of it and bring it into disrepute. Yes, really, that's the theory put to me from more than one direction. Discuss.
But let's move on from complex double bluffs and easy maths - a Carwyn Jones hands-down victory - to something else that struck me. There was a stark difference in attitude to the other two candidates.
Huw Lewis has huge fans in Westminster. He will get votes from the north, the west and the south east of Wales from colleagues who think he's got it right and has called it right for quite some time. But if you're not a huge fan, you think he's a loser. There are MPs who for all sorts of reasons would not back anyone who's thought of as a loser. That leaves Edwina Hart and while she commands huge disrespect amongst many of her Westminster colleagues, they're not sure she's a loser. They're afraid she might somehow or other be a winner. As far as their own votes go, I'm not sure that means anything very much. In all sorts of other ways, it might matter rather more.
Over the next few days the big unions will decide which candidate they're backing: Unison tomorrow, the even more massive Unite on Saturday. Union members don't have to vote according to the steer given by their leaders. How do they do vote will be reflected in the percentage of the vote each candidate gets. But look back to the deputy leadership campaign in which Peter Hain was involved and each time, I think I'm right in saying the majority went with the steer from the top.
What the leadership decides matters. More simple maths then: what is decided tomorrow and on Saturday matters a lot.
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~09~RS~)
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Whoever wins, I hope they enjoy the blue sky's of small government.
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We live in interesting times.... I am sure we can spend days looking at the detail of the vote when it arrives, a complex system.
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Betsan....
I caught a snippet of you on S4C, liked the hair style immensely,... but to return to the thread,...
Hart for me then, as if the 'theory' is correct that Murphy and Don T think she will cock it all up, (can it be any worse than it already is?)then what more can an anti devolutionist ask for.
I cannot readily go along with Stoney's colour option but do not disagree with the idea of 'small' government, preferably in the hands of where is should never have been taken from,... Local authority.
Power nearer to the people, where some degree of control by the people can be assured, not to a closet cabinet of elitist political wannabee's, which has effectively disenfranchised the people, and certainly castrated any potential for direct action, that could impact on one's home locale.
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What is astonishing is that only 3 MPs are supporting Edwina Hart. Given her track record as a minister it is hardly surprising that she has the support of Paul Murphy. Ask any Council Leader or ex Council Leader for their views on who has been the best Local Government Minister by a mile and the answer is Edwina Hart.To argue that Murphy and Touhig somehow are supporting Edwina Hart because she would harm the devolution project is absurd. She was in support of devolution even before Carwyn Jones had joined the Labour Party. Her campaign manager Andrew Davies organised the Labour Party campaign in the 1997 referendum. No the real reason why they dislike Edwina Hart is because she will be her own woman with her own ideas. Her launch yesterday showed that she has the new ideas necessary to take both the Assembly and the Labour Party forward. Carwyn Jones is the candidate who will give MPs an easy life and continue the drift of the past few years. It really is time for a change. If Edwina Hart also brings Huw Lewis into her cabinet as Social Justice Minister then we might see an Assembly government returning to Labour's roots instead of marching to the tune of the Nationalists. I'm also sure that some of the comments atributed to MPs who are anti Edwina Hart will not have harmed her campaign in any way. What makes many of us squirm is the way that some MPs have misused their expenses. Compared to them Edwina Hart is just the sort of honest down to earth politician that ordinary voters have for years wanted to see as a Leader. It really is about time that we had some straight talking to restore the faith of voters in both politics and politicians.
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The fact that Paul Murphy and Don Touhig have decided to support Edwina rather than Carwyn Jones AM sends a signal that the "rule" of King Rhodri and sucking up to the NATS has not had universal support in Labour ranks. If we do get Carwyn Jones as FM then we can get used to the NATS ( who are supported by economic illiterates) being even more integrated in "government",whilst being despised by the vast majority of people who live in east wales and are english only speaking. Perhaps Murphy/Touhig also her like her decision to refuse to learn to speak welsh as she considers herself welsh enough.On the other side her performance as Health Minister in relation to the Neurology services was nothing short of disgraceful in expecting welsh people to travel from north wales to south wales for treatment,rather than going to Liverpool which is on their doorstep. Whoever gets the job will have no easy time as the real "cuts" in public expenditure are going to take wales out of its cosy environment of having its lifestyle funded by other people. We'll see what the hard working people of wales think when increases in council tax come in to play in future years,however the "mendicants" wont have to worry because its paid by the hard working taxpayers.
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The 3 Tests of Leadership
What we need in this leadership battle is somebody to demonstrate leadership with regard to the traditional Labour values shown by Paul Murphy and Don Touhig. Public services come first but the failures of which have been concealed to prevent rocking the devolution boat. No need to wear a badge just tell the truth and stand up for the party.
The first test is to open up public spending bodies and their funding Quangos such as higher education institutions and the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales to public scrutiny on how they spend our money and the quality of service they provide.
Delegated powers mean just that you have a duty to act on our behalf and not hide behind the fact that legislation is still made in Westminster so lets blame them and do nothing for fear of being seen to be an inadequate Parish Council.
The second test of leadership would be to tell respective Welsh Archbishops and Bishops who feel they have a god given right to involve themselves in politics to stick to the day job and the reasons why they are given tax relief on their income. We have to paraphrase John Major enough snake oil salesmen spouting a load of rank hypocrisy as it is, we do not want you lot joining in as well.
I do not doubt that King Rhodri was in his words shafted by Tony Blair, it is well known that victims of such abuse then go onto abuse others, which may explain why King Rhodri went and shafted all of us especially those who have tried to bring injustice to light.
The structure of the Welsh Assembly does not allow the same sort of corruption as those demonstrated by Westminster MP's, but what it does do is exploit the constitutional black hole of only having delegated powers to conceal anything that is going to make the public aware of the fact that we only have a spin doctored version of events. Given the microscope that to which Westminster is subjected to they would never get away with it.
The third test of leadership is to include an option to get rid of the Welsh Assembly and replace it with something more cost effective that is going to support the ordinary person in the street, and not to pay the wages of third rate politicians to deliver third world public servces where by the people who pay the taxes are excluded from making the decisions.
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5 I have never understood some peoples childish capitalisation of NATS, but whatever turns you on....
Edwina Hart as FM would give Westminster MPs a run for their money, and I would be more than pleased to see Huw Lewis as a Social Justice Minister - But Edwina has more than demonstrated her committment to devolution, and her willingness to work in coalition with Plaid, and to expect some sort of Unionist Labour revival (ok then LABS) is just naive and blinkered.
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Good on you Betsan for continuing to give a forum for these repetitive pathological trolls who can't seem to say anything but 'King Rhodri', NATS (in capitals of course), 'abolish the assembly', 'the vast majority', 'welsh-speaking elitists', etc.
I wonder, do you guys have some sort of obsessive compulsive disorder , the verbal equivalent of touching everything in your bedroom thirty-seven times before going to sleep, that means you need to say the same things, in the same ways, on the same blog, day after day, regardless of the subject?
What a sad, bilious tribe of failures you are, talking to yourselves and hiding from those you spend your lives smearing.
Anyway, the point surely about the endorsement of Edwina by Touhig and Murphy is that you'd have expected them to endorse Lewis. Why they don't is a key question, given their closeness to Lewis's wife, who is the AM for Murphy's constituency. If one can answer that then I think one has the dynamic of the contest. It will also be very interesting to see what these so-called big guns do if the party chooses Carwyn. They will effectively have been shown up.
Who knows, maybe they'll join the tories? Or start to contribute to this blog with whacko false names like Mapexx and LegendaryAvocet and NoahSembly. And our surreal friend Stoney the aphasic poet. What a wheeze!
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With Rhodri Morgans back room team and former researchers firmly in the Carwyn camp it is not surprising to see the Cardiff and District MP's
supporting a contender who would keep the wealth in Cardiff. Just like
the coalition deal the Cardiff connection have been busy paving the way
with every newscast and newspaper report lumping on Carwyn.The Cardiff
based membership will be canvassed and cajoled by the dulcet 'crachach'
tones of Cheltenham trained Jane Davidson an accent which many of the
elite aspire to. The unions will be whipped into line by Carl Sergeant.
Unfortunately we members who deal with the voters have seen this comming
for two years we identified the reason why and we've passed it on to the
executive and we will have to sit back and watch decades of hard work
go down the drain to support people who are not even socialists. I'm glad
I'm not young anymore.As for my vote if Carwyn gets in ?For the first time in my voting life I won't vote Labour.
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message 8...
Just to be accurate, I have to tell you that my ID on this and other blogs is certainly not phony.
It is made up of the first Capital letter of my surname, added to the namje of the now closed firm I operated for over fifty years.
But talking 'phony', I do not see daverodway in the telephone directory.
Phony perhaps?
But to take you to task on your opening remarks, it's about time you came down off your high horse, and felt the ground under your feet.
Which leads me to say that we have as much right to castigate anyone and everyone, and anything we do not agree with, but more importantly, to, as anyone else, including the insulting prat who labels himself with the name daverodway, a phony name if ever there was.
As for Murph and Don not 'supporting' because the fellows wife represents Torfaen, have you not thought that maybe it is because she is in fact an Assembly member, (which organisation they are reputed not to want or support), that they see an inroad to aiding its demise by not supporting the chap, opting instead for a candidate that better matches their own political ideas.
Which just happens to co-incide with my persoanl option.
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9 - so who would you turn?
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#9 thegnatswatter, as a lifelong Conservative voter I decided that the Labour Party should have my vote because our constituency has Plaid in second place, if Plaid won it would be catastrophic for Wales, If a conservative can vote Labour I'm sure you can.
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11. Turn in my grave at the thought of voting for the NATS.
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Re 12
Interesting new alliances being formed here! The idea of coalitions catching on I see!!
So Plaid winning Caerffili would be a disaster for Wales, eh?!
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8. I would have thought the whole point of BP's blogs was to provide up to date info on current state of politics in wales and then stand back to look at views expressed in open and honest manner. I was perfectly happy with government of UK from Westminster with administrate devolution for good management reasons etc etc. The devolution exercise which is part of PC's plan to seperate wales from rest of UK was rejected in 1970's,and then with all the support of welsh "taffia",for whom it would be financially benefial it was "fiddled" through with marginal victory in 1997.We now have the internal fight in Labour Party for leadership of that party,and victor will then become FM without having gone to electorate for that position. This jas happened at Westminister with Major/Brown and the consequences are now with usin the latter case. Let us hope that the winner stands up for the majority of welsh people who despise PC,and the the language fanatics who are now well and truly embedded in the BBC and media in general. When King Rhodri says the many in wales are not "welsh enough" then it is a sign of times in this unhappy region of UK.
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Plaid winning any Parliamentary or Assembly seats is a disaster for good governance.
I have written many times that the three non-sunderer political parties must work together for good governance, it is the only way to reject a separatist agenda to the point of irrelevance. I am also on record saying the creation of prosperity is the better tactic when fighting Nationalist agenda's. Would Nationalism have prospered on the continent during the 1930's were it not for a lack of prosperity.
Plaid have nothing to offer Wales except division and greater poverty.
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12.I wouldn't rule out tactical voting to keep the Plaids out but I think the way the Country Alliance took over the Pembrokeshire Party
is as frightening as our own infiltration by Plaid sympathisers. Certainly many of the voters I represent would work with other unionist parties to vote 'No' at a referendum as they like me feel abandoned
by Rhodri Morgan's crass self preservation society.It hurts me to say
but I think Labour will receive the biggest rebuttal ever at the next
election because they will be seen as a Cardiff only party and the main driver of Devolution.If Carwyn wins the Leadership battle I will stand
as an Independent at the next Council elections.
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Re 15
With respect, it's quite clear that you are the language fanatic.
Re 16
Fine, but that's just your own unfounded - and consistently biased - opinion. But there is no direct link between the independence of any country and bad or good governance - unless, of course, you are pathologically incapable of believing that the Welsh are no better or no worse than anyone alse. We have seen more than enough bad governance from London, yet not once have I heard you call for the abolition of Westminster.
Again, fine, you believe in Britain, and I believe in Wales, both are reasonable viewpoints, there's no need for you to use warped and illogical arguments.
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#18
The people of the United Kingdom are united by their similarities, I only have issue with a small population who would prefer to destroy a country rather than working to make it successful, West of Offa's dyke this small population is known as the Plaid people.
I am consistently biased it is true, biased against poverty, biased against poor housing, biased against poor education, biased against apartheid.
During the last twelve months at the Welsh Assembly what "measures" have been proposed by Plaid Assembly members to.....
1. mitigate poverty, none.
2. mitigate poor housing, none.
3. mitigate poor education, none.
Why ?
... Because so much time was spent chasing shadows, don't build houses, prevent the sale.
... Because so much time was spent chasing shadows, spend less on education, £500 a pupil less than England, where did the money go.
... Because so much time was spent chasing shadows, our children are leaving school less able than their parents, poverty becomes a downward spiral.
... pop goes the weasel ...
I am also biased against people who say of me .....
And our surreal friend Stoney the aphasic poet....
This from daverodway who has nothing to offer Wales other than insults. To care for the future in a way that doesn't fit his vision, according to daverodway, is to be mentally deficient, I wonder who pulls this puppets strings, Plaid my guess.
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Re 19
But yet again Stonemason you completely ignore the specific point I made - I'm afraid this is typical.
I'll try again:
"But there is no direct link between the independence of any country and bad or good governance - unless, of course, you are pathologically incapable of believing that the Welsh are no better or no worse than anyone alse. We have seen more than enough bad governance from London, yet not once have I heard you call for the abolition of Westminster."
Will you answer that?
Many of us very well remember, by the way, how lukewarm the Conservative and Unionist Party were in the campaign against apartheid - Thatcher especially. She seemed to prefer the company of people like Pinochet. More reasons why so many of us in Wales have no faith in the Tories.
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With regard to your first sentence you attempt to gain an admission that Plaid could provide good independence because no direct link exists, that's true, except Plaid as a political party have not explained to the electorate how their socio-economic plans would work, commentators have given unapproved explanations true, so it becomes very difficult to judge a successful outcome, or indeed should such an attempt be made.
More importantly you criticise Westminster by writing We have seen more than enough bad governance from London, far more good has come from Westminster than bad, and when bad legislation has been made it is repealed. So on the whole there is no need to call for its abolition.
Cherry picking Conservative history and subjecting it to the norms and values of today is not really good debating, once again you cannot undo history, just hope not to repeat the same mistakes.
I am surprised you didn't comment on my admitted bias at #19
The bottom line FiDafydd, and it comes down to this every discussion that relates to Plaid, it is independence, and in my opinion needs to be kept on the surface of political debate at all times, it's important.
I'm away now, I won't be ignoring you.
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With the current furore on MP's expenses and lack of mandate for the PM, I would at least expect the labour party to keep what is essentially an internal election to private time of their own, not on paid time of the taxpayers in Wales, if they want a new leader then put that person to the popular vote of Wales once they have decided on that person. People are losing jobs, homes, hopes. AM's should do what they were elected for and not running campaigns that is for the summer recess on their hols.
Will we see democracy in action?
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Re 21
But now you're almost implying that only Plaid would be in government in an independent Wales. You have to forget Plaid for now, if you can!
I'm talking about the fact that there is no intrinsic connection between independence and the way a country is governed. And I would suggest to you that this is a basic flaw in all your arguments against independence, unless, and I repeat, that you believe the Welsh to be intrinsically less capable of governing themselves than any other nation on this planet. And I cannot believe that you would believe something so outrageous.
Also, I cannot accept that I was "Cherry picking Conservative history" as you put it. I mentioned only two examples - as you had brought in the matter of apartheid - that really are rather recent, and in my opinion represent a constant strand in Conservative thinking.
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Torfaen CLP endorsed Huw Lewis this evening. I wonder whether he'll become the grassroots candidate....
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That's interesting about Torfaen - against Paul Murrphy's wishes.
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Is this a conversation FiDafydd?
Your #23
.... implying that only Plaid would be in government in an independent Wales.
Currently it is only Plaid that has this goal of Independence, couple this with the stated socio-economic system that does not acknowledge a plural society in its constitution; to debunk my belief the other parties currently making up Welsh politics would need to jump on the separatist platform.
Putting that aside temporarily .....
You wrote ..... there is no intrinsic connection between independence and the way a country is governed.
My reply ..... I agree.
You wrote ..... I would suggest to you that this is a basic flaw in all your arguments against independence,
My reply ..... as stated before "... the stated socio-economic system of Plaid Cymru does not acknowledge a plural society in its constitution."
You wrote ..... unless, and I repeat, that you believe the Welsh to be intrinsically less capable of governing themselves than any other nation on this planet.
My reply ..... as a Conservative I see good and bad government everywhere, the people of mapexx's early years Manchester are able to produce just as good a peoples representative as is the town of Caernarfon.
So there is nothing to be outraged about.....
..... except you misunderstood my reference to "apartheid", I was referring to the apartheid we find around us here in Wales / United Kingdom, and before you go off into a hissing fit consider Wales and how we apply our very own kind of apartheid.
By insulting the Conservative party when you write
...in my opinion [apartheid] represent a constant strand in Conservative thinking...
your own apartheid becomes eligible for examination.
proposition ....
The two tier [linguistic] education system represents the apartheid model.
This is not intended as a declaration of war.
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"The two tier [linguistic] education system represents the apartheid model."
Get a grip Stoney and come back down to the planet. Should we have a one tier system (Welsh Medium only?) or do you want choice?
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Re 26
I won't go off on one, I'll just respond with an... oh dear!
And to talk of bilingual education as apartheid is just silly beyond belief, though no sillier than how you imagine your made up Marxist Plaid would want to govern an independent Wales...
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26. Your quite right Stoney there is a two tier education system and
Carmarthenshires Council is party to it. The local Carmarthenshire rag
recently carried a story where a new welsh medium school was partially demolished to extend the building six fold while an older english medium school no more than 100yds away which is in a dreadful state of repair( described by a governor as like a school in Beirut)will have no work. Needless to say the new welsh school contained the latest state of the art facilities,it equipmen and modern after school club and the pupils
in the other school will get nothing.Before Fi Dafydd and co get on the
'popularity of welsh language education places' bandwagon the planning application conditions stated that the pupil numbers would remain the same.As an ex-
school governor It was interesting to note that the two ward Plaid councillors who are always slagging the Ind/Lab CC off have been silent
on the subject. Why? Because they're governors of the welsh school.
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Wiki gives ....
From Afrikaans apartheid (1929 in a South African socio-political context), literally "separateness"
We are separate, I would remind you of my earlier .... as a Conservative I see good and bad government everywhere, the people of mapexx's early years Manchester are able to produce just as good a peoples representative as is the town of Caernarfon, or not as in the case of "thegnatswatter's" Carmarthenshire. There was a similar occurrence in Caerphily, money allocated for an English medium school diverted to a new Welsh medium school, right after Plaid took control.
..... "separateness" I'm afraid.
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Stoney - you need to be a bit careful with your allegations - or back them up. Which schools were effected - where and when?
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Welsh Language Education.
I have 4 daughters - at school for them Welsh was not compulsory.
Two of my Daughters studied Science & Math, they both took a European Language to maximise life opportunities.
None chose to learn Welsh.
None chose to study at a Welsh University, a visit to Aberystwyth to look at the Astrophysics course was the closest we got.
Three of my daughters have left Wales. None speak any Welsh at all.
One is now a Danish citizen, has a very senior technical post in Denmark, where she has lived full time for the last 4 years, speaks only English, but is learning Danish because of Citizenship requirements (work pressure, make it difficult.)
For these children Welsh language lessons would have been a complete waste of time.
My Granddaughter who is currently studying triple Science and Math for GCSE, cannot learn a European Language without dropping one of the sciences because of timetable issues.
It is noticeable that many children in this area who have been through the compulsory Welsh experience, and having left school, do not use, and cannot speak Welsh, haven't learnt a another Language, and regard the language and Welsh Politics with some disdain.
In my experience compulsory Welsh Language education;
Is detrimental to the Language.
Hampers opportunities and life chances for some children.
Perhaps more importantly:
Welsh children leaving education and joining the work force without a second European Language, is negatively impacting on Welsh Business, and Industries, ability to compete internationally.
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#31
No allegation, and please keep your threats to your side of the keyboard.
The report can be read at .....
School plan!.
..... apartheid in Caerphilly !
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Re 32
Are we really back to this level of debate, innuendo and ignorance? If your argument was correct, there would be no one who has gone through a Welsh medium education working in Denmark or Sweden or Germany or America or anywhere else - and that is patently not the case!
It is ironic that many of the posts on here are sneering remarks about how well those who have had a Welsh language education are doing in getting on in the world!
I really am not too sure what the history of your daughters is meant to prove. Though you seem pleased that they have no knowledge of Welsh - ignorance of anything isn't usually something to be proud of, surely.
"In my experience compulsory Welsh Language education;
Is detrimental to the Language.
Hampers opportunities and life chances for some children."
So you are an expert are you? I'm sure, however, that you do know that the only Welsh medium secondary school in Pembrokeshire - Ysgol Preseli -is an outstanding and extremely popular school - so how you came to your conclusions, I really can't imagine.
But this isn't an argument I can ever win on here, because I am debating with closed, prejudiced minds. The facts speak for themselves.
Are you really also implying that those who have had a Welsh medium education are less likely to have a third of fourth language?
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Re 33
Have just seen 33. It just proves my point.
The history of Welsh medium education is one of second class facilities - now that some people can spot examples of things possibly happening the other way round (though I would like to see proof for these allegations), suddenly it's apartheid!!
Yes, it's prejudice and selectivity once again.
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Apartied is a very strong term to use, you need to be more temprorate in your comments Stonemason. There is demand for Welsh Medium education in Caerphilly, yet not enough schools... I thought you Tories favoured choice? From what you say you seem to oppose Welsh medium schools, if not please clarify? Either way you are digging your self an even deeper hole.
Now back on topic. We have 3 contenders for the Welsh Labour Leadership. One is accused of being lazy, one of being anti Welsh language and one of being anti coalition. To the best of my knowledge there is only firm evidence of one of these charges - and that is that one of the candidates strongly opposed the coalition. Interesting that many of his policies seem to come straight from Plaid Cymru. Perhaps someone could come up with some actual evidence on the first two allegations?
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36. There were very good bi-lingual schools in Carmarthenshire the policy has only changed in the last ten years. Why do Plaid in power insist on an all welsh environment? Because they can brainwash the children and peddle their warped ideology and slant on history at an early age.
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36. One came to Trinity College accompanied by the First Minister and
told a blatant bare face lie and in my book once a liar always a liar.
Am I prepared to defend the accusation? Yes. Am I prepared to share his
identity to you Plaids? Never.
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#36#
Apartheid is not intemperate, it describes "separateness", it is probably uncomfortable to those who recognise that it can be used in regard to what might be described as "normal society", when traditionally it is generally applied to oppressive regimes.
Is a "Catholic" school operated under apartheid principles? The answer is probably yes. Wales has created educational apartheid, for political ends I am sure, are there any other aspects of Welsh life that can be described as having a form of "separateness" ?
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West-Wales,
Allow me to congratulate your child on gaining a senior technical post in Denmark, fortunately they have excellent English over there.
Allow also me to be extremely embarassed that you state she's only learning Danish as a Citizenship requirement. She should be learning it willingly to integrate into her adopted country.
To suggest that learning welsh would have been of no use to her is ridiculous. Welsh carries the same grammatical strucutures and commonalities of nearly every other European languages. To grasp the concept in Welsh would make it very simple to see the similarities in Danish, or other languages. Prime example, English does not assign genders to nouns, welsh does, all other european languages also do this.
I learnt compulsory Welsh in school. I have a degree, educated myself to be fluent in Welsh whilst at University and now have my own IT company and have worked on many projects with teams spanning the entire globe.
I would consider myself to be successful and not disadvantage in any way by having to take compulsory Welsh.
If you can't make an educated, unbiased comment about the Welsh language please shut up and comment on something you actually have intelligent comment on.
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I'd like to add that Irish kids are many many irish and english kids are leaving school without a second european language and it doesn't seem to be harming their countries' international business prospects.
I "demand" to know why Wales is a special case? I "demand" to know because if the shoe were on the other foot, Mapexx and his cronies would also "demand" to know.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_8311000/8311069.stm
Maybe we should all learn Spanish and Mandarin ??
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puredrivelagain - In fairness to 'West-wales' I think the discussion point was around the difference between learning to speak Welsh, and learning all subjects through the medium of Welsh. I am a native Welsh speaker. But I learnt most school subjects in English, and as many of these were science topics there are advantages and disadvantages to that. I agree with you that learning Welsh need not be a barrier to learning other lingos - indeed I did a bit of latin in school, and this is unfortunately not taught.
But one cannot cover all topics equally - if one specialises in science it is difficult to also cover all the languages and humanities subjects one would like. And indeed if one wants to do science at A-level it is often difficult to do maths as well in the detail often required.
Generally I think forcing people to do things, whether it be playing rugby or eating cabbage, is not the way to build a lifelong live for the thing. But now we have a situation where no science nor foreign language need be done, and set against this 'compulsory welsh' seems better than throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
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#40 Thank you Puredrivel.
Yes they speak excellent English not only in Denmark, but throughout Scandinavia Germany and most of Europe.
My Daughter is not a Danish Citizen by choice. Her career is the reason.
The International Company she works for wants her based in Denmark.
Temporary Citizenship is a requirement for long term residency and employment.
For many well qualified Pembrokeshire kids there is little or no local employment opportunities - so they leave Wales.
It seems you have done the same.
Congratulations on your achievement of voluntarily becoming fluent in Welsh.
I'm sure its a language that serves you well on your travels around the World.
You miss the whole point of my post (tunnel vision perhaps), like others you chose to see it as an attack on the language - its not - its pointing out that compulsion does not readily create friendships!! :) nor does it allow individuals to develop according to personal choice or need.
Voluntary is the key here - If you want to, and find value in learning Welsh - great - it becomes fun and worthwhile - an achievement.
I could go on about the pressures and curriculum limits on children at school, but there is little point - the debate has just about been exhausted on this Blog.
There are those who believe in compulsion and those who don't.
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#31
No allegation, and please keep your threats to your side of the keyboard.
Me threaten??? - I think your link sort of proves the point - your apartheid stuff is absolute nonsense.
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When you wrote ....
"Stoney - you need to be a bit careful with your allegations - or back them up."
It was threatening.
The fact that education is divided in its provision is the proof of apartheid, a fact.
Apartheid, "separateness", is not unique to Welsh education, it is found in many areas, it has also been used in the nation building exercise by Morgan and chums. When an observer can see that a particular trait is specified, without which a person is disbarred, and when it can be deemed an unnecessary trait to accomplish a task, apartheid ("separateness") is being applied.
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Sometimes, I cannot believe what I read on this blog? Llafur and their trilling Irish-Welsh Celtic Druids, don't seem to realize they're dead druids walkin'.
Rhodri Morgan, the Druid Paul Flynn, and his besotted apprentice, John Griffiths of Newport east, have totally killed the once popular Labour party in east Wales. In Monmouthshire, Montgomery and, Brecon and Radnor, Rhodri's 'Explicitly Welsh Patriotic Party, came a poor third behind the Conservatives and UKIP.
Sorry, but the rule by Llafur Druids is over, and maybe such politicians who received glorious incomes off the British state whilst plotting its demise, should be sued for every penny they pinched?
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"When you wrote ....
"Stoney - you need to be a bit careful with your allegations - or back them up."
It was threatening"
It certainly was not threatening Stoney - just advice to be careful due to libel laws.
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Travelling back from the Midlands with a Jack Russell for company I listened to Radio 4....
A lady, who by her accent sounded Chinese, said .....
Our culture is family, after family we are part of British society.
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So a debate on who becomes leader of the Labour party in Wales once again decends into a slagging contest on the Welsh language. Some of you have a monomania, can we get back to the topic? Constant lies about the Welsh language and the use of language designed to provoke reaction does nothing to promote debate. Every discussion seems to be hijacked by anti Welsh language campaigners. Apartheid is a strong term - it does not apply to Wales in any sense.
Labour leadership contest, discuss.
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47.Jack while I share your concerns for the union, support a united
approach against a 'yes' campaign and think that Paul Flynn should have retired at 65 like the rest of us I still feel a loyalty to the Labour Party and you know full well that the counties mentioned have never
been Labour territory(politically) and you also know that the issues
under review in European elections are different to those at a general
election. Yes Labour have a mountain to climb and an electorate to convince on their achievments over the last twelve years but Welsh
Labour have a bigger problem and it's not about the leadership as the
Cardiff based Welsh Media will have us believe it's about the
fundamental direction the party will take in the future. Will it embrace
nationalism or return to socialism that is the 100 Euro question for most
Labour voters.
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Let's face it. Carwyn Jones is a creepy man. Direct confrontation is totally alien to his nature (I say this on the basis of personal experience). I'm not a member of the Labour Party but I think Edwina Hart would be a much better bet, a woman who will stand up to the control-freaks in London - which is probably why the MPs are not supporting her.
Also are we going to get a post on Sir Emyr Jones's commments re. the upcoming All Wales Convention report? I'm really looking forward to it and I have no doubt that it'll reflect the will of the majority...
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Apparently not the will of the majority .....
.... this morning/afternoon mid-day Emyr was quite clear when he said ....
"The Minister has said, the decision will be the Ministers, no-body else."
So King Morgan's last job for the unholy alliance will be to set the referendum .........
Sleight of hand, blue smoke and mirrors, deftly done or expected.
Lyn_Thomas where a difference is created and applied to a single population and the result is separation, apartheid is a very accurate description to use.
Do we in Wales, create a difference that will prevent a person from enjoying equality of opportunity, think about it ......... I have, and we do.
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47. Well said Jack in relation to the "destroyers" of blessed union in UK who must be the greatest hypocrits known to manking who swear an oath to Queen Elizabeth 11,take the english money and wish to take wales into oblivion,and perhaps work to that effect. The trouble is their "secret" supporters working in "media" are continually spewing out their "poison",which is based on unreality an suddenly they look respectable. In history the great revolutionaries who wish to destroy entities have gone to prison i.e Hitler/Stalin/Mandela/Ho Ch Minh,however our lot are in "government" and picking up vast salaries/pension/work in media etc etc. If IWJ is so bloody good why doesnt he get back to where he belongs i.e that little Island of wales and sort it out and let the rest of us all alone. Build the new M4 around Newport and stuff the rest !!!
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Should we feel comfortable with the fact that the Tomorrow's Wales organisation, led by the great and the good in Welsh society, generously funded by charitable organisations and campaigning for a 'yes' vote for primary law making powers for the WAG, is now employing a 'development officer' to go into our schools spreading their propaganda? See: http://www.tomorrow-wales.co.uk/blog/index.php?language=en
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55. Government funded brainwashing a bit like the Carwyn campaign. Nice
to see Clwyd West CLP endorse Huw Lewis?
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56 - Yes, and Torfaen CLP; it'll be interesting to see whether a pattern emerges. It may well be that grassroots members, many of whom are uncomfortable with the alliance with the nationalists, will vote for Huw Lewis.
I was horrified to hear Sir Emyr say on the Politics Show that he took a bunch of kids from one of the schools he visited (to persuade sixth formers to vote 'Yes' in the forthcoming Referendum) to the Assembly to meet the most unashamedly partial presiding officer/speaker in political history, Dafydd Elis Thomas. Have they been taking lessons from Robert Mugabe, I wonder? And how on earth can they fail to see how inappropriate all this is?
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Thegnatswatter, at the end of the last Labour party conference, Gordon Brown, was stood in front of a huge Union Flag saying petty nationalism is dead, the camera panned onto a beaming Neil Kinnock.
Welsh Labour is rife not with petty nationalism, but full blown in yer face Rhodri type nationalism. Are Welsh Labour a stand alone political party, separate from Brown's Labour?
Newport east is interesting, the Paul Flynn wannabe, John Griffiths AM, ( who refers to himself as an Irish-Welsh Celt, and wants compulsory Welsh lessons intensified ) is backing Carwyn. The MP Jessica Morden, is constantly at Huw Lewis's side and backing him big time. Honestly mate, if I lived in England, I wouldn't give a damn who was in power, but in this benighted region, Rhodri's Llafur terrifies me.
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Legendaryavocet said:
"I was horrified to hear Sir Emyr say on the Politics Show that he took a bunch of kids from one of the schools he visited (to persuade sixth formers to vote 'Yes' in the forthcoming Referendum) to the Assembly to meet the most unashamedly partial presiding officer/speaker in political history, Dafydd Elis Thomas..."
Yet it's apparently ok to wheel out schoolkids to wave flags whenever a member of that totally anachronistic waste of taxpayers money - the Royal Family - comes to town. A particularly insidious and distateful example of the Brit establishment's political paedophilia if you ask me...
The Welsh Assembly represents us - the English monarchy doesn't. If we're going to have a vote on getting rid of anything, let's have a vote on getting rid of these unelected parasites...
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Re 58
Labour can elect who they like as their leader in Wales, it's none of my business. But the vitriol - as well as the usual paranoia - of full-blown British nationalists such as Jack is rather extraordinary. Added to that, his usual dirge about John Griffiths and Paul Flynn is rather tedious now after the hundredth time, and the sheer hatred clear for all to see.
It's a shame also that some people take the debate down to the level of using terms such as apartheid, if only because it is completely disrespectful to the non-white communities of South Africa who suffered the pain of what that word really means. They might have something to say about such casual use of the word used to describe a truly evil regime. They will also remember how little support they had in their struggle from people like Thatcher.
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What contradictorily pathetic dross? A Plaidi type, says it's none of my business who Labour elects. But then goes on to defend those they adore!!...Paul Flynn...John Griffiths...Rhodri Morgan, and as come as no surprise? I expect Julie Morgan!!
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Re 61
Sorry, but either you didn't read what I said, or you don't have the intellectual capability to understand - so, perhaps you can tell me where and how in no.60 I was actually supporting your greatest enemies? Though I rather suspect that they are both clearer and more original thinkers if your messages are anything to go by.
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Before I go off for a while ....
If my daughter is prevented from applying for a position, that otherwise she is qualified for, only because of a political barrier, that is apartheid.
Apartheid is the application of separateness, get used to its use, it is very accurate.
.... FiDafydd, I won't be ignoring your Nat ranting for a week or so, we have a sad family event unfolding.
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From today's Western Mail:
A PROMOTIONAL bus bought by the National Assembly cost more than £112,000 to get on the road, it has been revealed. The bus’s purchase price was £73,437.50, while the cost of refurbishing it was a further £38,735.64. The refurbishment included “purchasing a security system and multi-media hardware to further enable increased public understanding of and interaction with the Assembly and AMs”.
The figures were revealed by officials responding to a request made under the Freedom of Information Act.
An Assembly source said: “Spending £112,000 on a bus seems like an extremely excessive amount of money to pay in this age of austerity. A quick search on the internet will show (Presiding Officer) Dafydd Elis-Thomas could have picked one up for at most half that price.
“To spend nearly £40,000 to essentially ‘soup-up’ this vehicle is extraordinary. It’s like that MTV programme Pimp My Ride. This is just pouring public money down the drain on a wasteful PR gimmick.”
When the bus was launched in May, it was announced that visitors to it would be able to find out more about how the Assembly works, leave video messages for AMs, learn how to start a petition and provide evidence to Assembly committees.
Lord Elis-Thomas said: “As we mark the 10th anniversary of devolution, it’s more important than ever that we engage with as many people as possible, The National Assembly creates laws for Wales, holds the Welsh Government to account and represents the interests of all citizens of Wales. In order to do that we need to know what the people of Wales want, which is why we are putting the issue of engagement at the centre of the debate.
“This bus will take the process out to the people in Wales in a way that’s never been done before. It will complement our presence in Colwyn Bay and enable us to take the Assembly out on the road.”
In my view, not so much a promotional bus, asking what the people want, but another expensive WAG propaganda exercise to push us down the nationalist route. Disgraceful!
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61. There these Plaids go again sticking their big snout in and trying
to ram their opinions down everybody's throat. Jack we do have a common bond in so much that we abhor these 'Plaedi' types are against a 'Yes'
vote and want to keep the union. No doubt we also agree in opposing child indoctrination,state funding for lobby groups,religious interfering and the coronation of a Rhodri 'CLONE' in Carwyn however I don't think every one in Welsh Labour thinks the same as Paul Flynn and John Griffiths especially here in the so called welsh speaking heartlands.
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"If my daughter is prevented from applying for a position, that otherwise she is qualified for, only because of a political barrier, that is apartheid"
Hope things work out OK Stoney - I won't labour the point but if Welsh language qualifications are required for a job that's not a politicial barrier, it's just like if you need any other qualification e.g. Accounting exams for an accountant's job.
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Re 63
I wish you well.
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The original thread was the leadership contest...why is it being turned int another p.....g contest with the same old drivel, being re-cycled?
The real issue - to me anyway - is that this contest produces the 'First Minister' of a WAG. And, guess what.....I am the one who does not get a say in this.
The real question is; is this the way we want to be governed? That is the question that should be placed to the people of Wales.
Note;
Huw Lewis has been stopped speaking to the Post office workers, he was told by local workers that their union had endorsed Edwina Hart!!!!
Is this the way to run a country?
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68 - Not a satisfactory position to be in, but exactly the same as when Gordon Brown became PM, or John Major a few years earlier. What alternative system do ypu suggest??? (for Westminster and Senedd)
Note: Postal Workers Union have endorsed Edwina - individuals may vote for Huw - dont see a problem.
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66. A 'silly' requisite in a population where 95% speak and understand english?
64. Oh so typical of the contempt these people at the 'Bay' have for us
'oinks' living outside Cardiff (their perception not mine). They'll be
bringing back mule trains next to reach the more remote areas or coracles
to get to Caldy. It seems these idiots at the bay really look at us as the typical welsh country bumpkins.
64. As you mention the Western Mail did you read that Huw Lewis was
prevented from addressing union members in Cardiff following intervention
from their London based bosses because they had endorsed Edwina Hart? I
must say these elections are following the same undemocratic and bullying
procedures we saw in the coalition debate. This is not an election it is
an executive stitch up.Welsh Labour have lost the plot.
63. Our thoughts are with you Stoney.
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70:
Individuals do not vote!!!
With regards to a different system, why not have an election? When we elected the Assembly, we had Rhodri, whom we knew would be First Minister. It is usually (unfortunately these days) the leader who stands out, or should do.
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71, Are you saying that the executive take the decision without a ballot
and if so how do they get a mandate? I thought it was now statute to ballot the membership?
Yes we had Rhodri but we voted for a Labour Government not a coalition,we did not vote for full law making powers we were supposed to have a referendum,we did not vote for the Governance of Wales Act etc. etc.
The Labour Government did not have a mandate from Labour voters for the
One Wales Government.
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Re 70
Such a rant and even more paranoia.
"I must say these elections are following the same undemocratic and bullying procedures we saw in the coalition debate."
- I take it you're still talking about Labour, and that you're talking from knowledge as a Labour insider.
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Re 72
"Yes we had Rhodri but we voted for a Labour Government not a coalition"
- who's this 'we'? The majority of the Welsh people did not vote Labour, more voted for Labour than for any other party, but that doesn't make for a majority.
I believe the electorate is far more knowledgeable and sophisticated than you give them credit for - or perhaps would even wish them to be - and they understand perfectly well what can happen with a PR voting system. You may have run home crying from the playground with your ball, others, I would argue, are rather more grown up.
The days of Labour hegemony in Wales may very well be at an end.
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73. Paranoia is the trait of the nationalist so you obviously speak from experience. You can take 'it' wherever you like you supercilious pipsqueak.
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Re 75
Charming! No attempt to answer the points made then - you can't I suppose. Have you nothing serious to say?
Clearly I couldn't have chosen a better word than 'playground'.
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76.'You'(pronoun. refers to the person or people addressed) have spent too much time in the playground or you would have learned the meaning of 'we' (pronoun. used as a subject of a verb meaning the speaker or writer and one or more people)
Got 'it' Sonny
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74. Now sonny nowhere did I mention 'majority' in my postings when I said 'we' I referred to the 314,925 people who voted for a Labour Government(not a coalition) and if asked most would have been against
a coalition with Plaid( as illustrated by the collapse of the Labour vote in the Euro elections 138,852) No doubt Labour voters will want to know Labours intentions before they give them their vote this time.You
would be right to assume that I have inside information and a vote.
The last time I ran away crying from the playground was in the 50's when I was told that I must learn welsh against mine and my parents wishes.
I still to this day hate welsh speakers who try to ram the language down
my throat and try to make out they're somehow superior.
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"The last time I ran away crying from the playground was in the 50's when I was told that I must learn welsh against mine and my parents wishes.
I still to this day hate welsh speakers who try to ram the language down
my throat and try to make out they're somehow superior."
You really need help.
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79. Help from you and your kind.
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The gnat represents perfectly the nasty, anti-Welsh, self-righteous Labour hegemony of the past. That's the past. A small group of confused, angry people who can't even deal intelligently with changes within their own party.
Bring on the referendum!
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Any chance we could actually debate the Labour leadership contest than once again displaying an irrational hatered of anything to do with the Welsh Language?
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You would think that the Irish-Welsh Celts in Llafur, would understand the problems of forcing an ancient useless language where it isn't wanted?
The Irish state and the all powerful Catholic Church, had the most vicious forms of state approved barbarity at their disposal. But they tried and failed dismally to beat the Irish language into English speaking Ireland.
In Wales, the whole devolution thingy nonsense, is all about Rhodri's sodding language, cos if it wasn't for the language, separation from our all to often English kin folk could not be justified. Anyway, if you consider yourself to be an English speaking Brit, and you vote for Rhodri's version of Labour, you deserve all the disrespect you get.
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Re 82
If 83 is anything to go by - clearly not!!
But, honestly, I don't really have an opinion on the the Labour leadership contest; it's none of my business. That's not to say that I'm not interested - and I look forward to the 'campaign'.
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84.Well keep your puerile provacative prejudice to yourself.A typical
brainwashed presentation from a 'badly done to' condescending 'agent provacteur' pretending to be an adult.It is frightening to think that we will have a nation of Fi Dafydds thanks to a compulsory welsh policy
forced on us by a minute minority.No wonder they favour linguistic
separation and their own schools in order to condition these nationalist
trolls with impunity.
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85 Mr Pot - meet Mr Kettle.....
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86. Sticks .... Stones but NATS will never hurt me.
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Re 87
In that case, who wrote your no.85 for you?
"A typical brainwashed presentation from a 'badly done to' condescending 'agent provacteur'(sic) pretending to be an adult" !!!!!!!!!
May I remind you, as you have done elsewhere, that this is indeed an English language blog.
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#83 - You could not be more wrong - and I went through that system. The Brothers tried and failed to beat every academic subject into us, Irish was no exception. Perhaps you should have a look at figures for Irish speakers provided by the Government of the Republic (Doh! of course its going to be rigged in favour of those pro-anotherlanguagethatsnotenglish types of course). The only example of beating and bullying a language into a nation I can think of is here in 19th century Wales - English being that language.
Maybe you were recalling that.
The various differences between the stances of the prospective Labour leaders in terms of language development is interesting - if the Western Mail is to be believed then Huw Lewis is all for furthering eisteddfodau, using 'immersion' techniques for learning Welsh and many more.
Maybe he is a socialist after all.
As for #87 - thegnatswhatever... why is a Tory like you involved with a party calling itself Labour?
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89. Well I'm glad you admit that your academically defunct? Your three
amigo's Blackhead,FiFiDavid and David H show the same intellectual retardation and political naivety in their responses too.
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#90 - Ok I know when I'm beaten by an intellectual giant like thegnatxyz - and a put down done with such élan and wit as well. That's really shown me up and I shall now duly retire in shame....
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Thegnatswatter, how old are you? Playground insults are a little pathetic, perhaps you could try modifying your tone if you want a real debate as opposed to a slanging match.
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Oh, this is good, FiDafydd, Cilmyn and Lyn_Thomas, heap scorn on a decent English speaking Brit!! Sorry nats, in all recent elections, what succour can you draw from Llafurs demise? Has Plaid benefited from their demise?...No!!
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92. Lyn Thomas my age is as irrelevant as your pompous but false propriety as long as I stay within the confines of the 'house rules'
I can adopt any approach I like. If you want to see examples of playground insults and tiny tot tantrums read the blogs of your
NAT colleagues Fi Dafydd/Penddu/puredrivelagain.
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message 94....
Yes Gnatty, maybe if Lyn did spend a few minutes trawling back through rakes of messages from that little cabal, he would maybe enlightened as to who it is that usually kicks of the train of insulting messages that constantly appear on this blog.
Not only that, but also to see how many then get binned in responding to such tripe messages.
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93 - Not just Plaid but has anyone benefitted from Llafur's demise? No. Proportional Representation put paid to that.
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