Following the numbers
Just off the phone to Derek Vaughan MEP. He's "thought long and hard" and talked to the two candidates in the Labour leadership race who picked up the phone to him. He's just decided to support the candidate whose views on Europe amongst others issues most closely mirror his own: Carwyn Jones.
The official Labour list of supporting nominations has just appeared and the list of MPs next to Carwyn Jones' name makes quite an impact on the Excel page. He has 14 supprting nominations from Westminster.
But "the Edwina Three" have become five. Add Kim Howells and John Smith to her list.
Huw Lewis has four MPs on this list - Nia Griffith, Dai Harvard, Sian James and Jessica Morden. We understand Martyn Jones didn't get his in on time, so it was invalidated.
CLPs are split six to Edwina Hart, five to Carwyn Jones, four to Huw Lewis.
How they all vote? Ah, that's where it gets really interesting.
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~06~RS~)
Comments
Sign in or register to comment.
Ahhhh now that's a significant endorsement. I've now changed my mind on it being an easy victory for Edwina - although I do think she's favourite. Betsan - you ain't got a link to the official list have you?
Complain about this comment
Try
http://www.welshlabourleadership.org.uk/supporting-nominations
Complain about this comment
#1 Dewi_H
Unfortunately not but this is what Labour HQ has released:
Aff Org Supporting Nomination
ASLEF Edwina Hart
Communication Workers Union Edwina Hart
Community (ISTC) Edwina Hart
Socialist Health Association Edwina Hart
TSSA Edwina Hart
Unite Edwina Hart
Musicians Union Carwyn Jones
NUM (South Wales) Carwyn Jones
UCATT Carwyn Jones
UNISON Cymru/ Wales Labour Link Carwyn Jones
Wales Council of the Co-operative Party Huw Lewis
MPs Supporting Nomination
Martin Caton MP Edwina Hart
Kim Howells MP Edwina Hart
Paul Murphy MP Edwina Hart
John Smith MP Edwina Hart
Don Touhig MP Edwina Hart
Nick Ainger MP Carwyn Jones
Kevin Brennan MP Carwyn Jones
Chris Bryant MP Carwyn Jones
Ann Clwyd MP Carwyn Jones
Paul Flynn MP Carwyn Jones
Hywel Francis MP Carwyn Jones
David Hanson MP Carwyn Jones
Huw Irranca-Davies MP Carwyn Jones
Ian Lucas MP Carwyn Jones
Madeleine Moon MP Carwyn Jones
Albert Owen MP Carwyn Jones
Chris Ruane MP Carwyn Jones
Mark Tami MP Carwyn Jones
Betty Williams MP Carwyn Jones
Nia Griffith MP Huw Lewis
Dai Havard MP Huw Lewis
Sian James MP Huw Lewis
Jessica Morden MP Huw Lewis
CLPs Supporting Nomination
Brecon and Radnorshire CLP Edwina Hart
Gower CLP Edwina Hart
Neath CLP Edwina Hart
Swansea East CLP Edwina Hart
Swansea West CLP Edwina Hart
Vale of Glamorgan CLP Edwina Hart
Aberavon CLP Carwyn Jones
Alyn and Deeside CLP Carwyn Jones
Bridgend CLP Carwyn Jones
Ogmore CLP Carwyn Jones
Wrexham CLP Carwyn Jones
Aberconwy CLP Huw Lewis
Clwyd West CLP Huw Lewis
Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney CLP Huw Lewis
Torfaen CLP Huw Lewis
Complain about this comment
Betsan - welcome to the club of being referred to the Moderator...
Thanks Beca.
Complain about this comment
15 CLPs submitted supporting nominations. Only 15!
What about the other 25 CLPs? Ynys Mon, Ceredigion, Carmarthen, Cardiff, Newport, Montgomeryshire, Rhondda, Llanelli, Islwyn, Blaenau Gwent etc, etc.
Neutral or moribund?
Complain about this comment
Betsan...
Is this a game?
Can anyone join in?
Ok then...
One for you, two for me, one for you, two for me.... ad infinitum, ad nauseum!
Out there in the real world, not this blogosphere, who really gives a danmn who supports who in this silly game, which is no more than a sideshow, a distraction from the everyday life of the PEOPLE,..you know, those who critically matter in this region of the UK.
We should be concentrating our mental facilites on those who matter, not on those who are a frivolous bunch of no marks, who are attempting to gain powers they do not deserve, or warrant, in any way.
The whole shooting match has been overblown to the extent it is all totally out of proportion to the actual requirements of governing this region.
Who the hell do these people think they are, by what right have they to demand they be handed the keys to Wales on a plate of gold?
What sort of clowns are we to let this get to the stage it has got to?
Who gave them the right to take over this region anyway, they gained it by deception, and this leadership 'contest' is a means of deflecting interest by the public from the basics of the matter.
Complain about this comment
#3
A first for me - banned from my own blog. I don't know but I'm assuming there was a problem with the format of my message (just in case you thought I'd taken to using 'inappropriate language' or upsetting the moderator in any other way.) Thanks Rebeca.
Complain about this comment
Re #3 & #7 and of course Dewi @#4
Perhaps those of us who have transgressed should start a club.
Maybe the BBC could send out discrete lapel badge's -
With this identification there would be accidental meetings in Airport lounges, at M4 service stations, - best of all share a drink in the Paddington express buffet car.
Unfortunately little obvious opportunities North of Carmarthen.
Can you imagine the scene - - - perhaps not!!!
Complain about this comment
7. Just watched Dragons Eye it's not Rebecca you should be apologising
to but Huw Lewis you didn't even give him a mention. BBC impartiality
at it's worse. Did you get your orders from London or Ladbrokes?
Complain about this comment
message 8....
The problem is what colur shold it be..
Blue? nah the left wingers wouldn't go for that.
Red,? nah the others wouldn't go for that.
Yellow? orange? green?, no they all have their adherents.
reminds me of a joke about Northerm Ireland....
A scouser went over to Belfast, and while waiting to cross the road he witnessed a local yokel staring intentkly at a newly installed set of traffic lights.
The Scouse was intriguwed as to why this chap was so rapt in the lights.
"Excuse me wack" he said, "why are you looking at those light so intently?".
"It's like this" the guy replied, "every time the lights are green, all those Catholic cars move off, then when they are Red, the Commies all move off, but those Orannge barstewards don't get much of a chance now do they?"
So maybe we should just make badges from bits of coal. Easy to recognise, and with a sort of Welsh connection... yes?
Complain about this comment
10 - But the west end of the M4 would want anthractite - the middle bit would want coke and the east would want steam coal.
Complain about this comment
There are 40 Labour constituency parties in Wales and Carwyn Jones who is supposed to have the Heiniken appeal of being able to reach voters the other two couldn't touch only gets 5 nominations. Forget about the MPs or the Musicians Union the figure of 5 reveals the truth about Carwyn Jones's real appeal. As for the MPs all they are showing is that they are frightened of Edwina Hart. Your comments last night from a Tory that this contest os good for the Labour Party also shows just how out of touch many politicians in the Bay are. The contest so far shows a Labour Party split from top to bottom. It also exposes how weak the Labour Party is in mnay parts of Wales. Look at the numbers turning up to the nomination meetings. If you went to those meetings the age profile would show a Party on its last legs. Carwyn Jones's launch which for some reaosn you showed live looked as if it was being held in a Home for the Aged. The contest is a complete distraction from the real issue which should be how can Labour hold on to its Westminster seats next year. If Carwyn Jones really believes that his election will win votes for his MP supporters he really is living in a fantasy world. At the moment Labour is sleep walking towards defeat next year with the Tories 23% ahead in England and on course to take at least 8 seats in Wales. To cap it all Peter Hain's now throws in the comment that there should be no referendum before 2011. I wonder if any of the three candidates agree with him? If they do then where does that leave Plaid?
Complain about this comment
Betsan said...
CLPs are split six to Edwina Hart, five to Carwyn Jones, four to Huw Lewis.
Less Jargon Please
I would be grateful if you could spell it out for us simple people who do not know what a CLP actually is. After some research I realised it stands for Constituency Labour Party although Cumulative Licensing Program (to kill) might be a better description.
Leadership Contest
Can we have a public televised debate in Wales the same as took place when Tony Blair was elected.
We could then have a chance to challenge them on certain issues such as why does nothing work and what are you doing to make politics credible and fight extremism.
Re: The Moderators
We should have a badge that says Ive Been Moderated on Betsans Blog, and the colour should be peach.
Despite limitations this blog is the only way people can express themselves and bring general issues to light, but its what is hidden that needs investigation as in many cases it is so appauling that you could never get it published.
However, I am pleased to hear on BBC radio that more politicians are calling for the reasons why people vote BNP to be addressed. I would be only to happy to explain it to them.
Complain about this comment
message 11...
Trust you to throw a clinker in to the gearbox.
Message 13....
'.....However, I am pleased to hear on BBC radio that more politicians are calling for the reasons why people vote BNP to be addressed. I would be only to happy to explain it to them.....'
I'll second that!
Complain about this comment
Re #14
Thank you for seconding that comment, are there any others who support the call for politicians to address the reasons why people vote for extremists.
I wish to add as part of the current Labour leadership contest to help bring about positive change in Wales
I have just heard on BBC News 24 that Peter Hain is pleased that the BNP has been exposed for what it is.
Now lets expose the failures in the political process which gives the BNP their power base and for which Peter Hain has a case to answer.
As they have let the genie out of the bottle, I suggest the BBC now has a duty to act with impartiality and in the public interest to help us do it.
Complain about this comment
Re 15
Could you define what you mean by failures in the political process, perhaps? These generalities are used far too often these days - in vox pops and in blogs. It would be easier to join in the debate if I knew exactly what you mean. And I don't mean a long list of policies that you just happen to disagree with them!
Complain about this comment
The appeal of Edwina to the voter is strong.The campaign of Lewis impressive.They would make a great Team.
Carwyn trots out superficial comments on "foot and mouth" cliches etc.
Edwina has a portfolio of £6 billion out of £14b. She knows how to govern.Carwyn has never had a portfolio of over £200 million.No record.No votes.
This MEP is out of touch.Going for safe option and fav.
Voters do not know what Jones stands for.He talks about Miners strike (what is his connection-family?) but that was a long time ago-without vision candidates perish.
Complain about this comment
Re 16
You said
"Could you define what you mean by failures in the political process, perhaps?"
Thank you for asking, I would dearly love to but the defamation laws and the moderator would not let me give a full answer to your question.
I have been referred to the moderator so many times with a warning for telling the truth that all you can do is disguise it to get anything printed.
But then that is the point that I am trying to make we are only allowed to state generalities and then get critisised for doing so. Perhaps that is why quote
"These generalities are used far too often these days - in vox pops and in blogs."
"vox pop" you mean Vox populi a Latin phrase that literally means voice of the people, is a term often used in broadcasting for interviews with members of the "general public". from the Wikipedia
For every generality you have to wonder what appalling social injustice lies beneath it that is going unreported.
All I can do to get past the moderator is to reiterate the point that any complaint to any Assembly Member of whatever party is going to be ignored if it rocks the establishment and devolution boat.
The only policy i know of is the unwritten policy not to act on anything that would that would expose the failures of devolution.
From personal experience anybody brave enough to make that sort of comment on this blog then gets subject to a tirade of abuse.
Again, from experience if you want any regulatory body to intervene in Wales you have to bypass the Welsh Assembly Government and submit evidence into a Westminster Select Committee.
Then armed with their response you use it to twist arms and force the process to work, but even then I would not bank on it.
We need some kind of system whereby people who feel they have an injustice that is being ignored to complain to, for what exists at this moment in time is totally inadequate.
The main reason is that provided agencies, institutions and councils stitch you up by the rules there is nothing anybody can do. When they have flouted the rules they simply tell lies to cover their tracks and again there is nothing you can do.
That is what the BBC now needs to expose as being the cause of so many extreme and dangerous publicity stunts and support for extremist groups.
Being powerless to take on the establishment means anger gets displaced onto minority and ethnic groups and immigrants, which in turn is exploited by the BNP.
Like the expenses issue, the alternative would be to force AMs to do the job that we elected them to do or make them stand for re-election.
Now that is something we could debate that would solve the problem.
Complain about this comment
# 16
I wish to add in general terms which are not used often enough as people still ignore the reality that we have a large proportion of the population who believe with good reason that the political process has broken down, voter apathy is not a generalisation is a fact that should concern us all.
It does not matter who you vote for you only get fobbed off by a different party so what is the point of voting, it’s the political class consensus to look after themselves.
What is frightening is the comment by Tony Blair in talking about the Palestinian situation in Gaza, saying there is no justification in this country for anyone getting involved in extremist activity because we have all these complaints procedures in place. Nobody has told him that nothing works therefore in the minds of some that gives him or her every justification.
To realise that one is powerless to take on a corrupt establishment is dehumanising and creates a feeling of personal inadequacy. Fear of being made to look useless leads to an attitude of there is no point complaining as it will not do any good, or that you are digging a hole for yourself.
For some people to regain some self-respect they in turn treat somebody else in the same way they have been treated. The abused become the abusers and whom do people pick on, it is the usual ethnic minorities, immigrants or others who are seen as being undeserving. Moreover, if the establishment can behave this way it legitimises others doing it as well, it is called setting an example.
Another reaction is to turn to alternative laws and rules because ours do not work, it is not necessarily what they say, it is simply somebody making a point that people identify with, or worse still heroes making a sacrifice. You then get the backlash for exactly the same reason, which is exploited by the BNP and opposing Islamic extremists.
While I am critical of the BBC for failing to investigate or present a more balanced view of devolution, they only report the spin doctored news that comes out of Cardiff Bay. The BBC are not responsible of the failure of the political process, like MPs and AMs expenses that is the sole responsibility of the politicians who find every excuse to avoid doing the job they were elected to do.
In demanding the BBC censors the BNP, politicians like Peter Hain are also demanding that the BBC conceals the failure of politicians, in the same way as they tried to keep the expenses scandal out of the public domain. Following Question Time more than a fifth of electors would now consider voting for the BNP, that is a wake up call to politicians to stop fobbing us off.
Let me ask you some questions. How many times do you have to be told what is going on before you listen to what people are saying, or what is it going to take to force you to listen, and how much longer do you think you can continue to dismiss these issues as being a generality? How many times do you have to watch the violence, is that some kind of generality in that they are all violent or is there some issue behind it.
Lastly, are you a politician or belong to the establishment?
Complain about this comment
message 19....
'....In demanding the BBC censors the BNP, politicians like Peter Hain are also demanding that the BBC conceals the failure of politicians, .....'
I agree with the whole of your commentary, however in extracting the above sentence from it, I make this point,..
...what a damned cheek Hain has, he was most vociferous in complaining about that same sort of censorship when working against apartheid in his previous country, yet comes here with his totally opposite stance when faced with something he does not like in the UK.
I agree that the previous regime in SA had a lot to answer for, one of which was the strictures placed on those who opposed it, but to take the exact same stance as that regime, is more than a bit contradictory, it is total hypocrisy..
Keep it going Neo, there are some who follow your line to the letter.
Complain about this comment
Re 19
No, I'm not a politician or a member of the 'establishment' - and that tag could probably be best applied to a Valleys Labour councillor.
I'm not blind to the imperfections of politicians, certainly not to the greed of SOME of them recently at Westminster. But the almost fashionable cynicism with which some regard the whole political class is also extremely dangerous, and has, for instance, greatly helped the BNP.
Complain about this comment
I agree FiDafydd, there is a danger that the overwhelming cynicism displayed here plays into the hands of the extremists, especially the BNP - whose loathsome racism is a cancer on the body politic. I disagree with policies from other parties but I have to say that overwhelmingly most politicians and party members I meet are working to do the best for their communities and because they care. They aren't in it to enrich themselves or conspire to take us places where we don't want to go. That is a paranoid fantasy of some here. The vast majority of politicians and party members give far and above what they get back. I would love a fly on the wall documentary showing the work load of an MP or an AM - I think it would open a few eyes. Likewise that of a councillor. Even at the level of a Community Councillor the work load can be considerable, certainly taking up a large part of their spare time. Also the idea that there is a political class some how separate from the rest of the population is also dangerous. We all have an obligation to see that things are run properly and are honest about our choices and their outcomes, not just the politicians. People who vote for the BNP may do it as a protest, though a fair few of them will do so because they share the racism of the BNP, but if they vote for them as a protest then they share responsibility for giving the BNP credibility.
Complain about this comment
Re 21 & 22
So where is the debate and a response to the issues I raised?
Is that the best you can do?
All you have done is given a very good reason as to why a fifth of the people in this country are now contemplating voting for the BNP, as nobody gets a straight answer from our politicians on the issues that matter, anything and everything is talked down to mean nothing.
It is nothing to do with cynicism, what play into the hands of extremists is the fact that they give a far more intelligent response to voters than the one you have just given me.
Clearly, with your references to Westminster you are not prepared to accept any criticism of the Welsh Assembly and devolution now that is dangerous.
However, from experience there are some who do act in good faith and because they care they will put themselves out to help you, they are members or supporters of True Wales; perhaps you could get in touch with them and offer your support to help combat all this cynicism.
Re: Mulling It Over, here is a quote from the Scotsman. Patrick Hannan wrote, "we particularly resent strangers telling us what we already know and we are often willing to go to some lengths to prove them wrong, even if they're right."
Re 20 Good point Mapex55
Its called the "think left" act "right syndrome"
I personal regret the demise of the old Labour left, not that I agreed with them that often but they always made a stand on the important issues especially when they affected the individual.
While there are politicians around with those values, we dont have anything like that in power in Wales and i think we are suffering as a result.
Complain about this comment
message 22....
Devil's advocate for a few minutes...
Sorry Lyn, but I could call that a load of you know what, but I will, instead, take it to pieces, piece by piece.
You say most are not in it to enrich themselves, agreed, with my fingers crossed I may say, but tacking that onto the end of your comment about Griffin and the BNP, gives the impression you imply HE is. Any proof of that, or would you care to clarify your stance?
Have you any proof that Griffin does not care? You may not like a lot of what he promotes, and issues as BNP policy, but even he has the right to challenge a claim that 'he does not care', or don't you agree he has such a right?
You state politicians give more than they take, in what way do they do that, do you mean time? I would certainly love to be on their hourly rate, for the little input they actually put in. More so, for the output they achieve, which is, at the best of times, nominal.
I would dearly love to 'work', if you can call it that, for the number of hours they do, and at the rate of pay, far better than being out on a miserable building site, with the rain plummeting down, or trying to knock nails in at temperatures too high, or too, low for comfort.
I don't need to be a fly on the wall where they are concerned, I know only too well what they do to put their day in, and it is not work in any way that the real people understand it.
Any silly bugga can sit in front of a PC screen and press buttons, and get a guaranteed salary every month, I know because my wife does just that. So they occasionally manage to do something useful for the constituents, big deal, that is what they are being paid to do, is it not?.
No one asks these folk to take on onerous 'work' loads,m that only they call onerous, but they voluntarily shove their faces before the electorate time and again, in the full knowledge that is what they must do.. 'work' for the voters. So if they find the 'work' not to their liking they know what to do about it...step down and let another silly bugga take over their onerous, but very well rewarded, position.
Few do, I wonder why? Nothing to do with their 'control freak' mentality, and rather satisfactory salary, maybe?
If you truly believe there is not a political class, which is not separated from the herd, then you must be very naive. Next I suppose we will be getting the same story that the police are deeply embedded in the community, to the extent they are one of the people.
You and I know only too well of the gap between the councillor, MP, Am, or whoever, and his/her constituent. A common trait in the same fashion as the gap between the copper and his neighbour.
Each spend their 'free time' in each others company, to the exclusion of the non cognoscenti. Us that is, those amongst us who do not swim in the same pond.
It cannot be glossed over, with a sweep of the hand, like you are saying in your message. They live on a different planet, and time scale, to those who put them in power. They have no 'spare time' they are bounden by the same rules as those police I mentioned, they are never 'off duty', their higher salary levels reflect that. Or it is supposed to.
As stated, if they don't like it, then its either 'tough titty', or get out of the job.
How many have you heard, or heard of, actually fighting the corner for someone who feels unjustly treated, or ignored, time after time, until they either give up, or die for want of what should be AUTOMATICALLY attended to, and provided, as soon as the problem arises for them?
I have heard of many such cases, so it is without doubt these people you are so supportive of, must have heard even more than myself.
I have also heard of many of those, to answer the question I commenced the paragraph with, that have been ignored, refused help, directed to department after department, and given the run around by council, or government officialdom, until they are tearing their hair out in frustration, or give up, and let the problem persist, until it begins to actually affect that, or those politicians who fail them.
What obligation do they have to run things 'properly'?
Not much evidence of it, either in Westminster, or Cardiff Bay.
Ten years of total waste, and vainglorious endeavour, since 1997, centuries, when talking Westminster.
They are all much of a muchness, and are perceived rightly or wrongly, by the voting public as grafters, schemers, scammers and a load of bloody carpetbaggers.
Yes, people do vote for erstwhile unacceptable parties, there have always been a few who do so, but the scuttlebutt from the most recent soundings tells of massive numbers looking at those parties, with the potential we could well see a tsunami of defections from the establishment party regime towards the likes of the BNP, Griffin as leader or not. Simply because they feel disenfranchised by the present so called democratic institutions, and establishment.
Finally... yes, thinking of politicians as uncaring and different to the guy in the street, is dangerous, but we are at that sort of thought level, for the simple reason those politicians have brought us to think in that way.
The danger comes from the center of politics, no matter what party, and it becomes ever more dangerous as those extremist elements begin to pick up those disaffected voters, with promises that are NOT false ones, but will hardly suit anyone, if put into practice. Which given the right circumstances they could be.
Complain about this comment
#24 Mapex55 said
The danger comes from the center of politics, no matter what party,
I want to reinforce just how true this is, as one is always told in group work training beware the consensus because the voices of dissent are ostracised, oppressed and excluded by everybody with far greater tyranny than in a divisive situation.
That is very true in society as people who feel they are the victims of social exclusion are turning to extremists for support, they do not have any choice there is nowhere else to go or anyone they can turn to.
I hate to say this but our democracy was far healthier under Margaret Thatcher than it is today and while I would not wish to go back to such bitter conflict we had an opposition called the Labour left wing who would always back the underdog.
Anybody with a grievance against the system or the establishment was automatically supported, nowadays you are subjected to a load of abuse from inadequate wanabees ingratiating themselves with the status quo.
A classic example is # 21 and #22 blaming people like me telling the truth about the failure of the political process for the rise of the BNP, when they need to take a good look at themselves; likewise blaming the BBC is just as pathetic, shooting the messenger solves nothing.
We need to look at the quality of people who we are sending in Westminster and Cardiff, when my MP recently got up to ask a question in the House he could not get the words out and ended up a laughing stock.
If you want to tackle so called cynicism we need people that we can trust and respect but as the old adage says that has to be earned, it cannot be demanded to keep out the extremists. We are already in a situation when we are expected to roll over or fear of exposing the failures of devolution.
If Labour is to survive, it needs to re-establish itself with the core principles and core voters to deal with difficult issues instead of selling us out to win personal popularity contests.
In that respect now is the time for all good people to come to the aid of the party.
Complain about this comment
Is anyone else as fed up as I am about all the mind-numbingly boring chatter about these three nobodies standing for head honcho in the assembly?
Edwina Hart......overdoes it on the pies.....bordering on being morbidly obese.... plain enough to be a cake-judger for the Woman's Institute.
Carwyn Jones.....has to be physically restrained from eating pies.....bordering on being morbidly obese.....Once won a quiz down the Glee Club.(I woz there)
Huw Lewis.......a modest pie-eater, possibly a little overweight, and though I've lived in South East Wales all my life, I've never heard of him.
Is this really the best that Wales can do in the "Boss of the assembly" stakes.
Bet we'd see the world record for the 'lowest turnout ever' if this was a public vote.
Sorry Betsan, but the voice of the common (and boy am I common) people must be heard !
Complain about this comment
A fifth of the people of the UK consider voting for the BNP for many reasons, partly in protest at what they see as a failure of main parties to address issues, partly because some of them are racists, and some of them have an anti immigrant stance helped by sections of the press that lie consistently on the issues of asylum and immigration.
I have no doubt that Nick Griffin is sincere and not out to personally enrich himself, however the BNP are an odious party and their supporters, for what ever reason they are supporting them have to take some blame for stoking the fires of racism.
Politicians are part of society, yes some elected officials, especially those at Westminster may be set slightly apart from the rest of us by virtue of being away from their constituents, however they are a minority. Remember that the vast majority of those who are involved in politics, those that are claimed to form a political class are not elected but ordinary bods that pound the streets, knocking on doors, delivering leaflets and generally being thoroughly grounded in their communities.
Yes politicians of all parties need to connect to the people and people need to connect to the political process, they have an obligation too to become involved, at least to vote and to look at the issues, it doesn't happen in isolation. People need as well not to punish politicians for telling the truth. To fix the ills of society will cost, both in time and money, there are no instant solutions, but the many of the public seem to like to think that there are.
Complain about this comment
Noah once again proving that his role here is just to poke fun and not make serious comment, just act as a troll to get attention and stir up trouble - this is at his own admission. So lets ignore him and move on to the real issues.
All three candidates have had their profiles raised recently - but I am still unsure how they will actually deliver or what their distinct policies are. Have to say Huw Lewis seems to have read Plaid's manifesto as his aproach seems closer to theirs re community socialism. Edwina has solid experience behind her and Carwyn Jones as cheif legal advisor to the Welsh Government gives him insight into the whole process of government, but what else is there?
Complain about this comment
Why thank you Lyn Thomas. It is indeed an honour to be mentioned in despatches by one such as you, with the gravitas and air of self importance that you so effortlessly manage to display on here.
I see you mention that "Edwina has solid experience behind her" May I just add that many are of the opinion that she has an "an air of solidness all around her" mainly as a result of the her pie consumption.
Did I strike a chord there Lyn? Are you perchance a devotee of the pies?
I think we should be told.
Complain about this comment
Sorry Lyn,
you don't get where Noah's coming from, do you? Those of us who never ever wanted this parasitic nationalistic, language enforcement encumbrance of devolution, agree with Noah. We've got to forgo reading some of the Worlds best newspapers within the British press. To get our proper insular Welsh news, we've gotta trawl through BBC Cymru, The Western Mail and the likes of 'The Institute of Welsh Affairs'!!! Trust me, those who voted against devolution, despise the language enforcers more and more. I used to delight in Welsh speaking Wales, viva la difference, those days have completely gone!!!
Complain about this comment
Edwina, in charge when a billion is misused, with assistance from Plaid's economic incontinence, time to ditch her, together with the unholy coalition.
Lyn_Thomas uses the expression .....
..... "community socialism", "Tales of the Faraway Tree" would be a better description, it offers a greater understanding of extreme left wing socialism Plaid style, bumptious springs to mind alongside ridiculous.
via a dongle, imbibing good North England ale.
Complain about this comment
Actually its not fair left, not that I'd take any lectures on the subject from a person who doesn't think the state should be providing health care - or have you altered that line in your blog that says that the state should be restricted to security issue only...
I would love to know where the 1/5 figure comes from and how that compares to anywhere else.
Complain about this comment
Noah, personal comments are your level, but as you have stated before on this blog, your purpose here is to provoke reaction by producing provocative statements, essentially you are a troll, so I think we can take everything you say in that vein and safely ignore you.
No comments on policies or style of the contestants? Perhaps we can rise above these childish personal statements and look at what the various candidates offer.
Complain about this comment
Stonemason - I hope things are well with you.
Lyn your #22.
I don't agree with a lot of your comments regarding Politicians, but do support your views on our unpaid Community Councillors who in most cases work their socks off.
However I must take issue with this comment.
They aren't in it to ......... conspire to take us places where we don't want to go
OK plaid has a vision - fair enough - 20% of the Welsh people support you.
Now read Plaids Constitution, consider the One Wales agreement commitments.
The AWC and the massive "More Powers" propoganda campaign, the Language LCO.
Do you really think Plaid is not trying to take the 80% who don't support you to places we don't want to go.
Complain about this comment
I'll ignore Noa and mapexx completely because their nonsense isn't worth replying to.
However, it is worth saying that no amount of unhappiness with the main political parties can ever be an excuse for voting for a fascist party like the BNP, and anyone making making excuses for such deluded people should be ashamed of themselves - unless, of course, that they are secretively supportive of these evil people.
Complain about this comment
#34 thank you for your kind enquiry West-Wales, this was a case where death came as a comforting friend, now we wait for the funeral, little to do, much to say.
#35
Democracy, a fragile state of political affairs, where the Extreme left wing Nationalists label the extreme right wing BNP as deluded, the democrats amongst the electorate listen to both whilst thinking "kettle and black."
It is an interesting phrase evil people FiDafydd, our ancestors had "fairies" to whip up fear, in Wales we have "Plaidies", much like fairies but with the extended nose, ..... according to mapexx that is.
via a dongle, looking over Morecambe bay, one of the wonders of the North.
Complain about this comment
#35
FiDafydd, you may not agree with Noah and Mapex55 but only a fool would ignore what they have to say.
Try being a bit less judgmental, it prevents others from having a say on this blog for fear of being subjected to such self-righteous censorship.
While I could never consider voting BNP, people who make sickening self-righteous moralistic judgements to conceal the failures of politicians and the way in which we are governed should be ashamed of themselves. It undermines the fight against fascism.
#30 Jack said
I used to delight in Welsh speaking Wales, viva la difference, those days have completely gone!!!
I know what you mean, I was delighted at the prospect of devolution with power going to the people, but unfortunately, it went to Cardiff Bay and stayed there, we now have a third layer of government that only does things to justify its own existence.
We all make mistakes, but the important thing is that once you have realised that you then do your best to put things right.
#32
Lyn Thomas asked
I would love to know where the 1/5 figure comes from and how that compares to anywhere else.
I presume you are referring to the number of people considering voting for the BNP.
In which case what planet are you on, have you had your head in the sand for the last few days its been in just about every TV news bulletin and newspaper.
From the Guardian.
The YouGov poll for today's Daily Telegraph puts them up to 3% support in a general election from 2% previously, with 22% of Britons prepared to consider voting for them in local and European elections.
This is the point I am trying to make, in the real world you do not get debate, peoples opinions are dismissed without being addressed or subject to self-righteous moralistic judgements. Therefore, issues never get resolved until they explode or people vote for the BNP.
You said
I would love a fly on the wall documentary showing the work load of an MP or an AM - I think it would open a few eyes.
Could we please include a bit that would enable people like me to make their point about being ignored or fobbed off on the important issues? It undermines all the work done by the genuine representatives that you described.
Worse still it allows the BNP to fill the vacuum.
Complain about this comment
Re 37
I'll ask a straight question then. So when is it ever justifiable to vote fascist? I think that's the point.
Complain about this comment
Am I alone in finding it strange that a blog exclusively about the candidates for "First Minister" in the assembly, should have drifted into yet another discussion about the BNP ?
Just read Lyn Thomas's message 33. He insists I be castigated (no..castigated(!) for not being more serious about the 'contestants'.
I quote..."No comments on policies or style of the contestants"!!!!!!!
Now come off it our Lyn. All three are members of the Welsh Labour party, and as such you'd have difficulty sliding a brand new fiver between the policies of all three.
As for comments on 'style'... may I (humbly) suggest that strangely enough I have been the ONLY poster on this particular blog, who has (albeit flippantly) actually commented on each candidate's style, or lack of it.
Seemingly obligatory 'bit' on BNP...(Buys Numerous Pies).......
I do apologise though for the absence of any mention of the handsome, shy, retiring, delicate, and cosmopolitan leader of the BNP. His style..... refined, exquisite, well thought out, and honed to perfection, makes his masculine charm instantly attractive to all sections of society, particularly the ladies...down girl!!!Though his strange licking of the lips (as seen on Questiontime) did appear to suggest that the aroma of freshly cooked pies was somehow wafting into the studio.
His obviously enormous pie consumption also endears him to the more politically minded throughout the country.
He is an example to us all...Though the fact his surname is exactly the same as my local pub is causing some consternation amongst the more sensitive and touchy of our regulars.
Complain about this comment
# 38
When is it ever acceptable to vote fascist or BNP
The answer is NEVER
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Glad to agree Neocromwellian.
Complain about this comment
West Wales, the All Wales Convention was not a propaganda exercise - it had a brief to inform, and inform in a neutral way, what was on offer. It did that. I really wish there is a pamphlet sent to every home in Wales explaining how what we have now works and how the Assembly will work after a yes vote (if there is one) in the referendum. Straightforward factual and not suggesting that one would be better than the other. Then a state paid for leaflet from the No side and a state paid for one from the Yes side. Then what else can be paid for by the respective campaigns.
The one Wales agreement is supported by parties that got over 50% of the vote at the election, that is how politics works. All four parties plus the independent are in support of the language LCO - that indicates a broad level of support. Opinion polling suggests strongly that people are in support of the Welsh Language and the rights of speakers of both English and Welsh in Wales. Its only a minority, if very very vocal who are opposed.
As for politicians, the elected ones are a small minority; the vast majority of those involved in politics are ordinary footsoldiers like me, no pay, no remuneration, indeed most pay a lot to be involved in one way or another - that is how most grass roots activism is paid for, by the ordinary members. We aren't apart from society, we are society. I think it is dangerous and anti democratic to run with the idea that politicians are a breed apart and that they are all in it for themselves. What would we replace it with?
Labour Leadership. I think we can begin to see differences between all three, but we need some more specific questioning - a better grilling by the media would help, and no, superficial differences in how they look should not be a criteria.
Complain about this comment
via a dongle, a lone voice it seems.
When is it ever acceptable to vote fascist or BNP
The question is the thin edge of a wedge along a road that could destroy democracy.
Whether you agree or disagree with a political philosophy, you have to accept that every person listed on the electoral register can cast his or her vote exactly as they wish, they are also eligible to stand in an election. Reading comments above I recognise the beginnings of electoral censorship, you may vote only within the bounds set. This is not democracy, historically when such bounds have been set, extremism follows, both left and right.
.... a sad day for democracy, denying a fellow citizen a vote.
I notice the Unionists are retreating in fear of the separatists, remember democracy.
Complain about this comment
message 43....
The AWC was not a propaganda exercise?
Please tell me, why was it seen to be necessary to set it up and put it into motion then?
The meeting I attended in Cwmbran commenced with what could only be seen as praising the Assembly, devolution and the furtherance of it all.
There were people in that meeting, as I am told there were in others of the same, who wanted to talk about matters other than what the Chair would allow.
All that was allowed was to strictly follow the well laid out pattern the meeting was to take.
The whole thing stank of Assembly design and drive.
Please do not come the old soldier with someone who has spent half his lifetime following the machinations of the political manipulators, it will not wash..
So you are a foot slogging help mate to these people, no pay do it for the love of it, well let me tell you, I do this sort of take down stuff for just as great rewards.
My purpose being to reduce the amount of legislative burden that perpetually rains down on us from government, Assembly and councils.
Every non productive employee of these organisations cost us dear. Those who actually return something to the community that employs them, are a rare commodity, but the usual line is, once in place, it is often seen vital, to someone with a sense of imperialism in their mental make up, to create the environment to gain a larger slice of the action by generating enough bumph and such so that an empire is commenced, which in turn requires ever more drains on the economy as more and more get involved.
Invariably doing nothing more that spending their time dreaming up ever more costly grandiose schemes for the like of you Lyn to ensure gets put into motion, AND TO HELL with those being forced to pay for it all.
So again I ask you to justify the meaning of the AWC, justify the expense it cost the taxpayers, justify the refusal of the Chair to tolerate questions 'outside' the remit of the gathering.
IT was obvious there were people who went to those meetings to get PROPER answers, but they were batted down, like the disruptive schoolkid who keeps on asking the same pointed question, which the teacher will not answer as it may cause the lesson to stray where the school would not allow it to go.
We are NOT schoolkids, and we wanted the answers to questions that have yet to be answered, and just because the FM had set the rules deliberately to thwart us, does not mean those questions have gone away, they will be answered yet.
The very purpose of the AWC was to glean a outcome that showed favour for the increase in powers for the WLB, Tomorrows Wales, and all the other publicly funded, (without the public's knowledge, or permission, most of the time) quango's and other WAG/Assembly invented set ups.
We want an accounting not only of the costs, but more importantly of the whole thing, and the only way we will get it, is to challenge the present establishment to face the FULL electorate, with ALL they have in mind, not only for 2009/10, but well into the future, before taking anything else unto themselves.
We want that referendum, NOW, and fully debated in open forum, so that the people of Wales can see just what REALLY is being done in their name.
We don't want the 'results that will surprise', from Sir Emrys Whasisname, as we do not trust what his AWC got up to, behind closed doors, since the last 'public' meeting was held.
We want the results to a fully open referendum.
That will do, nicely.
Complain about this comment
#45
You are asking for democracy mapex, in Wales, during 2009, and 2010?
I'm sorry map, but all you will find is stealth of hand, blue smoke and mirrors.
oh, ......... and lashings of apartheid in these green and pleasant lands.
via a dongle, ............. from a democratic part of the country.
Complain about this comment
Re 44
Stonemason,
The law allows people to stand and vote for just about any registered party, I'm not discussing that. I'm talking about how it could ever be morally right to vote for a fascist party like the BNP. It is my opinion that it can never be morally justifiable. Never. And it's quite clear that others agree. You know very well that is what I meant. Your no.36 bringing Plaid into this particular discussion I found particularly sad.
I also would like to offer my condolences.
Complain about this comment
#47
FiDafydd, thank you for your condolences.
The dilemma of extreme politics in a democratic pluralist society.
Every person who writes here, no matter how repugnant the feelings for another's views, and I am being very specific with regard to fascism for the moment, if we do not support the extremists right to vote we loose democracy.
So, to take the philosophical position forward, you, and everyone else who lives in this country, has to put aside any moral repugnance in order to protect the rights of the morally repugnant.
Equally important, it becomes your responsibility, your obligation to democracy, to ensure the reasons why fascism was able to gain a political momentum are replaced by what I would term "civilizing" alternatives.
Explain where I am wrong FiDafydd.
Complain about this comment
Re 48
But I am not, and have not once said, that I would stop these people voting whichever way they choose. I'm merely saying that the act of voting for fascists is morally repugnant. And to come back to my initial point, the almost unthinking, fashionable cynicism against the body politic makes support for these people more likely.
And although I disagree with your political philosophy, it is still a million miles from the fascism of the BNP.
Complain about this comment
Re 49.
Fascism....The authoritarian and nationalistic political movement in Italy (1922-43)....any ideology or movement like this.
[Italian 'fascio' political group]
Complain about this comment
I must be fair, as an English, English speaking Brit, my heart sank when Rhodri Morgan renamed Labour within Wales, as....Explicitly Welsh Patriotic Party!!!
I felt the same sense of doom, as my assembly member for Newport east, John Griffiths, started his assembly maiden speech!!
His opening words verbatim.....''I'm an Irish-Welsh Celt, my mother is from south-west Ireland, and my father is a real Welsh Griffiths''. Do I detect a whiff of sectarianism?
Complain about this comment
46....
Yes, I know Stoney, but that has been the case for the last ten years, has it not, here in Wales?
In fact, I may have been the first to use the phrase, 'smoke and mirrors' on this blog, in reference to the shenanigans in the Bay of Pigs.
By the way can we swap condolences? My younger, and only brother dropped dead Saturday lunchtime.
So I now await the call to Manchester for his funeral.
Complain about this comment
Stonemason and Mapex I would add my condolences too, and from what you said earlier Stonemason I gather it was not unexpected, not that it makes it any easier to cope with. We only truly value people when they are no longer with us.
The AWC was there to discuss what was on offer, not to engage in long discussions on the validity of the original referendum, its remit was to inform people what was on offer - not discuss independence, a return to the Welsh Office or Mapex's solution a roll back to pre Lloyd George days direct rule.
Stonemason Wales is a democracy, probably more democratic than England as the electoral system here more closely reflects the views of the electorate. Now that is out of tune with your brand of libertarian conservatism, but its democratic.
Back to the Labour leadership, would be interesting to know the candidates views on the postal strike for example. Fairly clear where Edwina stands on this one, as she has the backing of the Communication Workers Union. Now Huw Lewis has re-branded himself as a radical socialist, though there are those of us who suspect he is a blarite in socialist clothing, while Carwyn Jones is probably on the fence publicly... am I right?
Complain about this comment
Re 51
Jack,
"...my Assembly Member for Newport east, John Griffiths, started his assembly maiden speech!!
His opening words verbatim.....''I'm an Irish-Welsh Celt, my mother is from south-west Ireland, and my father is a real Welsh Griffiths''. Do I detect a whiff of sectarianism?"
And do I detect a whiff of repeating yourself...ad infinitum?!
But even stranger, then, that to start your message you felt a need to define your identity!!!!
Complain about this comment
Now that I have reached an agreement with some on this blog that it is never acceptable to vote fascist or BNP we need to look at the reasons why some people do.
I do not wish to discredit all the good work that is done in communities by elected representatives, my concerns are about social justice and the tyranny of this political consensus.
I recently watched Michael Mansfield QC on Hardtalk who made the point that political pressure has replaced the pressure to get results as the main cause of injustice.
I suggest that this is the main cause of social injustice; I speak from experience of all main parties, if your concern is going to rock the boat you are only going to get lip service and then ignored, or usually just ignored.
Labour leadership contenders must address this issue as part of the process of persuading voters back into the mainstream of politics.
Complain about this comment
#53 condolences mapex
#53 thank you for your condolance.
Where you write Lyn_Thomas .....
Stonemason Wales is a democracy, probably more democratic than England as the electoral system here more closely reflects the views of the electorate.
Using the "list" as part of "Wales PR", is I'm afraid not democratic.
It is only democratic where a person is voted for.
..... you also wrote ....
The AWC was there to discuss what was on offer
..... a reminder of reality .....
The Executive Committee's job is to guide the Convention’s work, in line with the Terms of Reference, with the aim of generating a widespread and well-informed debate on devolution and the issue of the Assembly’s powers. Ultimately, the Executive Committee will need to analyse the views of the Welsh public, expressed through the debate, assess the level of public support for primary law making powers for the Assembly, and report to the Welsh Assembly Government by the end of 2009.
I can only express my disquiet that you consider the antics of the AWC have realised its expressed intentions.
via a dongle, ............. looking towards Wales with foreboding.
Complain about this comment
Lyn #43
I was not sure where to post this - the debate has spread over several threads.
There is a lot here;
The All Wales Convention was not a propaganda exercise - it had a brief to inform, and inform in a neutral way, what was on offer.
Forget the brief, that was what the political elite wanted us to hear - don't want to listen.
What Wales deserved was that the Convention should have allowed the people to input, share there ideas, explain where they thought things should go, and what was going wrong.
Help develop the plan!!!
Instead a marketing campaign, no diversion from the agenda or the predefined the way forward allowed.
Of course questions were allowed - only to further explain the plan.
But to offer a suggestion, of course not.
The course is charted - buy in - or - but out.
Whether you like it or not that was propoganda, designed to force an opinion.
You then try to justify the One Wales Agreement as democratic;
The one Wales agreement is supported by parties that got over 50% of the vote at the election.
When no party has a clear mandate - a coalition has to be arranged - fine.
But coalitions do not have a mandate, no parties policies have sufficient support to enforce their manefestoe - all are rejected!.
Therefore the Coalition have a duty to govern with respect and tolerance, they should do nothing controversial, unless there is an overriding need which makes a decision essential.
In this case Labour's desire to hang onto power was such that they were willing to sell their souls to the Nationalist's.
Plaid's demands no matter how unreasonable were accepted.
And we are all suffering - look at the millions being wasted on Plaids rejected ideas.
Just briefly on this, its got so stupid, divisive, and damaging to Wales I find it hard to take serious interest;
All four parties plus the independent are in support of the language LCO - that indicates a broad level of support.
Few outside the assembly understand what the LCO is all about - however when the LCO is enacted and starts to impact on Welsh life it is going to cause problems for people.
Of course opinion polls support the Welsh Language, we all do, but few outside of the language activists, who know what its about, support this legislation.
There is something wrong at the Bay - The place is infested with Nationalist, Culture,and language activists.
All AM's within hours of arriving succumb to the atmosphere, they seem to stop considering or reflecting the views of their constituents.
Support for legislation on these issues however ridiculous has become a sort of political correctness.
Complain about this comment
West Wales "There is something wrong at the Bay - The place is infested with Nationalist, Culture,and language activists.
All AM's within hours of arriving succumb to the atmosphere, they seem to stop considering or reflecting the views of their constituents.
Support for legislation on these issues however ridiculous has become a sort of political correctness."
Can you justify any of this, makes it sound like there is some sort of drug administered to people on arrival... infested by Nationalists, infested by unionists more like, or perhaps we could do away with pejorative terms all together? The majority of their constituents are supportive of the National Assembly and want it to go further, that is the evidence of all the votes and polls conducted. I would suggest you live in a bubble where you and a handful of likeminded people seem to reinforce your views but don't reflect the views of the majority of your fellow citizens of Wales.
Complain about this comment
#58 Lyn_Thomas, where you write.....
The majority of their constituents are supportive of the National Assembly ...
How can you say this let alone believe it when the election figures fly in the face of any logic you might apply. During the last assembly elections in Caerphilly the turnout was %42.1, if you assume each of the electorate is supportive you cannot assume the %57.9 who chose not to participate are supportive of any politics at Cardiff Bay, I would assume they are not supportive of politics at Cardiff Bay.
I think your assumption is well and truly debunked.
Complain about this comment
Lyn #58
perhaps we could do away with pejorative terms
may cramp my style - but probably right :)!
The majority of their constituents are supportive of the National Assembly and want it to go further, that is the evidence of all the votes and polls conducted.
Not true the evidence from actual voting is less people are interested in the Assembly than Westminster, 60% Vs 44%.
Of the 44% of the population interested enough in the Assembly to go and vote, only 22% support Plaid and its Aims.
Lets see that's -
Out of 100 only 44 vote - of that 44, 34 don't support Plaid.
So only 10 electors out of every 100 voted for Plaid at the last Assembly election!!!
220K out of an electorate of 2,165K
The Devolution referendum was carried in 1997 on vote of 50.3% out of a turnout of 50.1% that's roughly 25% of the electorate.
As for the opinion polls - the questions are so phrased or the selection of those asked is arranged to give the desired response.
Easy done ask any pollster.
So - you tell me;
you live in a bubble where you and a handful of like minded people seem to reinforce your views but don't reflect the views of the majority of your fellow citizens of Wales
perhaps you would like to reconsider :).
Lets see what the electorate have to say at the ballot box.
Complain about this comment
Those that don't vote can only be counted as don't care. You can't get any thing else out of that. The idea that the opinion polls are rigged doesn't stand up to any scrutiny, it would ruin the reputation of the polling organisations and despite your paranoia the BBC as a commissioning organisation or Trinity Mirror are not nationalist controlled organisations. Plus Plaid's position is clear - it wants a process that leads to independence, that is not what is on offer, so Plaid's support does not equal the support that exists for devolution... it may be part of it but the support for devolution is much wider spread. As I said you reject the opinion polling because it doesn't support your view. You are the one living in a bubble of delusion on this one.
Complain about this comment
Good example of proof by assertion Stonemason, again not true, all you can say of those that don't vote is they don't care what the result is, no further inference is possible. On that basis the majority of people in the UK want to abolish their local councils...
Complain about this comment
#61 Lyn_Thomas wrote:
Those that don't vote can only be counted as don't care. You can't get any thing else out of that.
... but I can. Let me remind you of what you said ...
The majority of their constituents are supportive of the National Assembly ...
All the constituencies, except for half a dozen or so, counted less than 50% of electorate as voting, across Wales this is less than %50, this is the majority turning its back on the election, not caring is not supporting. Your assumption is well and truly debunked.
Complain about this comment
#62
No, it just means the council's are unable to say they have a positive mandate, they have been elected by default. The only solution to this particular issue is mandatory voting.
I think it is a good idea, very democratic.
Complain about this comment
Opinion polling is a representative art, it takes a sample and that sample is representative, on that basis its fair to expand and extrapolate. The don't knows are there as well, but even including the don't knows, the majority are in favour. Thus my comments stand. So different rules for councils and the National Assembly.
I will make a prediction now. The referendum will be won by those that want greater powers for the National Assembly and exactly the same things will be said by the unionists here, that it was a fix, that it was anti democratic, that the people of Wales are against it because those voting against and those who abstained are of the same mind.
I remind you on the night of the referendum that lead to the establishment of the National Assembly, when it was looking like the vote would be lost, but narrowly, the spokesperson for the no campaign was emphatic that a no vote by just one vote was a no vote and would settle the matter for a generation. Now your side lost, get over it and live with it. The people have spoken and they said yes.
Complain about this comment
Re 54.
Fi fi, as I said I'm an English speaking Brit, and like most other Brits my gene- pool declares me to be British. I'm a product of the British Isles. A lot English, bits Welsh, bits Scottish, a bit Irish, bits western and eastern European who happily settled in Britain.
John Griffiths, like certain other Llafur politicians in once English Monmouthshire, make much of the fact of themselves being Irish-Welsh Celts!! I smell sectarianism.
http://www.paulflynnmp.co.uk/senydd.htm
http://old.paulflynnmp.co.uk/newportdetail.jsp?id=913
Complain about this comment
Re 66
I take it then that you couldn't think of an answer!
As I said...ad infinitum.
Complain about this comment
67...
and we all say, to you, ad nauseum.
Complain about this comment
Lyn_Thomas writes .....
... get over it and live with it.
I wasn't here on the night of the referendum, neither was I party to the constitutional dogs dinner that would allow a simple majority for a major constitutional change.
But democracy will demand a better resolution for future constitutional change referenda, 60% of the electorate.
Complain about this comment
No your 60% of the electorate is undemocratic, a 60% turn out would require a unanimous vote to pass.
Complain about this comment
My preference for any constitutional change would require a simple majority in both chambers of a Welsh Parliament, followed by a joint sitting where 2/3 vote would be required followed by a confirmatory vote in a referendum. In a UK context major constitutional changes would require a public referendum where a majority of those that vote vote in favour. No rigged super majorities, but I'd like to see maybe a super majority in Parliament to initiate it.
Complain about this comment
71....
But you are apparently quite happy to have the 'super majority' here in Wales that has been the burden on our backs for the last four or five years, or so.
The coalition with Plaid and Llafur. Now tell me that was not 'rigged'.
Make your mind up time is a comin',and we will welcome the day.
Complain about this comment
Re 72
Terrible thing, democracy, isn't it mapexx??!!
Complain about this comment
View these comments in RSS