Googlies and sticky wickets
Last week I sat with four politicians from the four major parties while a hall full of young people in Newport proved that forgiveness, as far as politicians and their expenses are concerend, is still a long, long way off.
Nick Ramsay faced the first salvo. "Why do you need two beds anyway?" asked a girl with attitude - the kind you as chair like having in the audience. "I didn't. The irony is I'd bought a bed and a sofa" he said, thinking what felt to him like a reasonable response would lead to the same from his audience. He was wrong. "Why should we pay for your bed and sofa anyway?" A boy from another school had nabbed the microphone. The applause was resounding. You got the feeling at least half the audience wondered why we need to pay politicians anything. Eleanor Burnham went on the attack. She got nowhere.
"Why do we need so many elected politicians in this country" called out one teenager. "Look at America. Huge and with far fewer of them!" The audience whooped and cheered.
A single hand went up, a young girl who had the guts to suggest she was rather pleased we had more politicans. It felt to her more democratic in this country than in the States. Brave girl.
You may then be surprisred to hear that the Conservatives made clear at their weekly lobby briefing that they intend to oppose a new measure - or Welsh law - that would allow the creation of an independent body to set the pay and expenses of Assembly Members. The Presiding Offcier is making a statement on the measure this afternoon.
The idea hasn't come from nowhere. It was one of the recommendations, if you remember, made by Sir Roger Jones and his panel. They wanted to see the current link between the pay of MPs and AMs broken and an independent Welsh panel appointed to decide how much AMs are paid and take home in expenses.
The Assembly Commission say: establishing an independent board would be one important step in the bid to create "an open and transparent process which will instil public confidence".
The Conservatives say: no way! At least that's my interpretation of Darren Millar's words: "this is a point we're not prepared to concede on". In fact I'd almost say he leaned right in front of Nick Bourne to make sure the point was made clearly.
Why? Their argument went along these lines: it wouldn't help the situation one jot, it would open the can of worms that is regional pay - we got to allusions to Welsh teachers being paid less than English teachers pretty quickly - it would be a waste of money and anyway it wasn't central to the recommendations made by Roger Jones.
The Commission, pressed on cost and waste say the new body would cost £25,000 to set up and in subsequent years would cost £5,000 per annum to run. I've looked back at the Roger Jones report. Setting up an independent panel is, from my reading, a "principal recommendation". You can decide whether that makes it 'central' or not.
What about public perception? Wouldn't the teenagers in Newport and their mums and dads and aunties and uncles and teachers and friends be taken aback to hear the Conservatives don't want an independent body established to determine their pay? Why should this play badly with the public, said Nick Bourne, unless the "public perception line" is "pushed by people who want this body set up".
What of the other parties?
The Liberal Democrats are fully supportive of the measure.
Plaid are fully supportive of the measure.
Labour? They're still discussing their response. I'm told by a few sources now that one sticking point is that some members of the Labour group want a say, a vote even, on who is appointed to the "independent" board. Work that one out. I don't know about you but that feels to me just a bit like turkeys being prepared to vote for Christmas, as long as the catering board are all fully signed up vegetarians.
So: had the Conservatives expected Labour to come out and oppose the measure too, safety in numbers and all that ... only to find they haven't? Do they now find themselves alone, defending a wicket that feels rather stickier than they'd imagined?
It's very tempting to think so.
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~07~RS~)
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Sticky wickets are good for democracy, my guess is the wickets are going to get even stickier once the youngsters realise that the "old goats", and nannies, at Cardiff Bay will listen to their views, and the youngsters are not short on views.
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"Look at America. Huge and with far fewer of them!"
Oh dear. Schoolboy error in Politics and Government.
In addition to the 535 members of the US Congress, there are a further 7,383 Senators and Congressmen at State level. You must then add the elected and appointed office holders of the Executive Branch of the Federal Government and each of the 50 States.
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It seems to me that far from setting up yet more 'gravy train' passengers, it would be more in keeping with what those kids were on about, and to begin the process of unravelling this perpetual, and almost exponential, increase in whatever it is the Bay mob want for themselves.
I would have loved to have ben alongside thopse kids in Newport, as they appear to have been asking the questions we older members of the community should and MUST be asking, and far more often, and very much LOUDER!
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Most of these kids would vote for more powers and independence Mapexx, you still so happy?
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Re 3
And I would have loved to have seen them question that corrupt cabal at Westminster! I believe criminal charges are expected there - even Gordon Brown says so.
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Why shouldn't Welsh teachers be paid less than English teachers ?? It should be set by 'supply and demand' just like in the private sector.
The average price of a house in London is £ 470, 000 !! Why shouldn't teachers there have the same opportunity to own their own homes which Welsh teachers do ?
http://politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2009/10/21/the-blues-open-up-23-point-gap-in-england/
By the way, one can see why the Tories want to cap the power of the Welsh Assembly in this opinion poll.
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message 4....
PROVE IT!
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US Congress has 435 members
US Senate has 100 members.
This equates to Westminster + Belfast + Cardiff + Edinburgh, approximately 1000.
The population of the UK is 61 million, the population of the USA is 300 million, both figures approximate.
Whoever the young person was, he or she was right to ask the question "Why do we need so many elected politicians in this country".
You, YnysEchni, are wrong to belittle the young person even though the person is unlikely to read your comment. In fact you are guilty of obfuscation, comparing apples with bananas, and for what purpose ?
I would have asked the teenager, "what do you propose" ?
But I am biased, I believe in democracy and small government, I agree with the teenager; 1 representative to each 100,000 of population is sufficient, in Wales we only need a sheriff (Mayor) and a couple of deputies, the rest can go to Westminster.
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No. 4:
You think that 'most' kids in Newport would vote for independence?!? I despair sometimes at the amount of delusion that exists in the minds of some people on this blog? Have you even been to Newport?
Even the slanted Assembly funded polls investigating the support for devolution show that the level of people wanting independence is running at half the level of those who want to abolish the WAG.... and that is for the whole of Wales!! In a place like Newport, support for independence will be even less... not that the WAG will have sampled Newport of course! They'd be too busy trying to skew the findings by spending their time in Aber and Caernarfon :)
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Mapexx,
DISPROVE IT!
Give us a referendum and it shall be proved
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Stonemason - yes, fair play to the young person for taking an interest an standing up to express his opinion. As a schoolboy, he is allowed to make "schoolboy errors".
How can add Westminster + Belfast + Cardiff + Edinburgh, but not add Capitol Hill + Tallahassee + Albany + Austin + the 47 other State capitals?
Each State passes its own laws and raises its own taxes. Each State has a directly elected governor, house of representatives and senate (except Nebraska which doesn't have a senate). It is indeed apples and oranges. That was kind of my point.
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message 10....
Funny thing is, it is those on my side who are shouting loudest for that referendum, but on terms that will give the Welsh a chance to fully comprehend what is being done in their name, with the caveat that they also have the chance to dissolve the Assembly/WAG if they don't like what they hear.
Yours seems to be the only voice raised in favour of an early referendum.
True Wales has been calling for it, so have many on this blog, as well as many elsewhere in the media and other forums.
However, that is not only being put further and further back, maybe in the hopes the concept will fade into the mists of time, but is being actively, and surreptitiously, manipulated pre referendum, should it ever take place, so that the very opposite is asked by the terms of such a referendum.
We are not as dull as the nationalists would have Westminster, and the non Cymraeg Welsh, to be.
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message 5...
I hope you are all there, and have pulled yourself together, when the next general election comes about.
I would be at a crossroads situation in your shoes, as being a declared 'socialist', you will be severely limited in your parliamentary options I fear.
On the one hand you abhor the Tories, Plaid cannot possibly suit your puroposes, being the completely screwed up mob it is, the Lib Dems will not be left wing enough for you, and according to your latest erudite analysis on things in London, Labour is tantamount to being a branch of the Mafia.
What a dilemma!
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"Why so many politicians?" A fair question, and the answer is "scrutiny". In a functioning parliamentary democracy, accountability goes beyond an election every four years. There is a committee to keep an eye on each government Minister/Department. Each piece of legislation has a committee stage to thrash out the details.
So, you look at how many members it takes to make up an effective and representative committee, how many committees are needed, and how many committees each member can usefully take part in. A bit of maths will then give you a minimum number. Looking at it that way, the Assembly might be a bit small, Westminster too big.
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YnysEchni, your #11, .....
If I were to be asked to modify my comment at #8, leaving just one line it would be ....
I would have asked the teenager, "what do you propose" ?
Because these teenagers are the future, I believe democracy needs these youngsters to start questioning now, because if they question they will probably vote.
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Interesting YnysEchni, your #14.
You are absolutely right when "scrutiny" is emphasised, In my humble way might I suggest ....
with a little less legislation we might not need so many to scrutinise.
It seems we are being governed into oblivion, Westminster + Assembly + Council + Parish + Inland Revenue + ........
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Well, I am probably the only person here who was actually there at the event where Betsan chaired the discussion.
Not sure if the teenagers would all be voting for independence, but they did all sign the Tomorrow's Wales petition for a Welsh Parliament- again, I was there.
Fiona Cross (Plaid Councillor) was excellent on the panel, future Assembly material surely.
Vaughan Gething the Labour activist also put himself across well. The less said about the Lib Dem and Tory AMs the better!
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Re 17
Great news and very encouraging! The future is a different country...
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welshdemocrat
A few questions if you could please .....
What was the age range of the children ?
Was this discussion at a school during school hours ?
Who exactly presented the Tomorrow's Wales petition ?
What was the name of the school ?
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Betsan, welshdemocrat declines to answer my questions.
I have a petition at the Welsh assembly asking that political organisations and their members be prevented from doing what Tomorrow's Wales has done.
Can you be good enough and provide the answers please.
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Posted this in the wrong place - Sorry how I wish there was an edit facility on this Blog!!!
Wasn't Tomorrow's Wales set up and funded from Organisations themselves set up and funded by Assembly Grants, and also receiving considerable support from the Rowntree Trust Charity.
Tomorrows Wales is effectively an organisation of, and promoting, the "One Wales" Government agenda.
Now why would a creature of the Assembly, petition the Assembly???
Additional - a hall full of young people in Newport - was True Wales invited to present the argument against further powers, and for a proper Referendum.
What was your role in the proceedings, WelshDemocrat? - a teacher perhaps?
Is your Avitar perhaps misleading.
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Lyn_Thomas, et al, do you remember writing expressions such as ...
.... you are paranoid.
Wrong, the writing on the wall that we were reading was an unfolding book of political deceit, Betsan is starting to report a little, for how long I wonder.
It seems that "True Wales" are "Truthful Wales" whilst you and yours are less than, and the proof is written on these pages.
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http://newydd.cymru.gov.uk/topics/childrenyoungpeople/havingfun/funkydragon/;jsessionid=n35hKGJWT4fQR1JK0LT1NstnS1p1bpJL4tY1n4G071zQkVDkWZgv!-774995877?cr=3&lang=en
Plaid types, have a rather frightening propaganda theme, I've lost track of the times nationalists have claimed that youngsters want Independence!!
It's counter productive nats, most folk find the thought of their children being brainwashed by the 'driven', revolting, we're on our guard, thanks for the warnings.
Have the English got a flag waving children's department like our Funky Dragon?
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It is deeply worrying that the political establishment in Wales is so shameless (or so blind) in its attempts to indoctrinate school children. The event was a travesty of democratic participation. When are we going to see balance in this debate?
We know who else used such tactics in 1933.
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Exactly, Jack - I very much doubt it. Certainly not at £829,000 per year (out of our taxes), at any rate.
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I am absolutely amazed that I have been forced to go to the Welsh Assembly Petitions Committee to request help in determining exactly what happened at the Newport school, but its done, email sent, democracy shouldn't be this difficult.
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26...
Did you say 'democtracy?'
What....here in Wales?, surely you jest.
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Since when has been sending an email difficult?
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28
It's not.
It's done.
It's a democratic disgrace in Wales.
Mapexx is right.
You, puredrivelagain, are, in the context of Newport, a side issue of no importance.
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Sticks and stones Stoned old pal
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Re 27
"Did you say 'democtracy?'"
- no, he said 'democracy'.
Re 29
"You, puredrivelagain, are, in the context of Newport, a side issue of no importance."
- not such a friend of the 'little people' are you Stonemason when they disagree with you?!
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31....
What happened to (sic)? Took a sicky has it?
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#31
You imagine that being denied information is a someone who disagrees with me, you are on a different planet; I asked for the information because it supports an Assembly petition that is in consideration at this moment (P-03-215 Prohibition of political events in schools). The information would provide solid evidence that political organisations are active in a partisan way in our schools.
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Just caught up with this thread. Hold your FOIs!
Just go the Bevan Foundation website and you'll get all the details of the event there: http://www.bevanfoundation.org/3.html
The title of the session was 'Politicians of Tomorrow Challenge Politicians Today', part of a wider event for young people from South East Wales called 'Celebrating Democracy' designed to fire their interest in politics and the world around them.
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Another storm in a paranoid teacup it would seem...
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Sounds like the sort of thing that should be expanded, note information does not equal propaganda. More paranoia from the lunatic fringe I fear.
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36....
Information continuously pumped up and out by a one sided vested interest cabal, amounts to nothing less than propaganda, when it is designed to take the electorate down a single pathway.
With no means to challenge that information, other than by writing to the press, or submitting messages to the likes of this blog, is no worthy countermeasure to that information. Especially when any such letters to the press, are basically taking the fight to the opponent, considering what little press exists here in Wales is perceived to be supportive of devolution and what has ensued since 1997.
Which can be a stumbling block to publication of such opposition commentary.
The limited coverage provided by this, and other blogs, which is really no more than a one to one method of communication, again restricts the voice of the dissenter, to an extremely small readership.
The constant outflow of discriminatory information, all at taxpayers expense, IS therefore, propaganda, whilst no balancing antipathy is available to be seen and/or heard in the public domain.
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