Lewis x 3
What was the second most read article throughout the UK on BBC online this morning?
John Lewis comes to town and the hits come pouring in.
A charming hack, who should clearly sell his soul and go and work for the 'other' side saw an opportunity for Huw Lewis. Couldn't he change his name to John? Great publicity. Never knowingly undersold could work too, couldn't it?
Meanwhile another Lewis shares his take on the future of the Labour leadership in Wales. Take a look at this piece published today in the New Statesman.
Some things strike you as ... just not quite right?
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~16~RS~)
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An interesting take on things, New Statesman article.
.....one inacuracy .....
"....a referendum must be held on extending the Assembly's law-making powers", this doesn't have to happen.
..... one prediction close to the mark .....
" winds of change will soon be sweeping across Cardiff Bay."
Unfortunately Tom Lewis, the writer, didn't remind the contestants that being able to work with Westminster in good faith would be good for the people of the principality, the label on the tin is not so important as the ingredients.
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From the article:
"Edwina Hart, the health and social services minister, is well liked among her peers, but refuses to learn Welsh"
I'm warming to her! :)
I love the wording of that quote too. The word "refuses" suggests she is being continually pestered to do so.
I hear that throughout the Welsh Health Sevice, strategically placed language enforcement pawns are trying to persuade our health professionals to learn Welsh. Considering most of these overstretched individuals barely have time to go to the toilet and work in appaling conditions, I am pleased to hear that their figurehead Edwina Hart is sending out a strong message that they can all relate to: 'I'm too busy and there are far more important matters to attend to'
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"Edwina Hart, the health and social services minister, is well liked among her peers, but refuses to learn Welsh, which has not endeared her to the public"
That's torn the peace treaty Betsan.......
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"I hear that throughout the Welsh Health Sevice, strategically placed language enforcement pawns " , in other words "here's another pointless anti-welsh rant I've made up whic hI can;t give evidence for and can make anonymously".
Still, as the post is about Edwina Hart rather than Welsh, here's my tuppence worth: Edwina Hart has been managing arguably the hardest job in Welsh politics with, depending on who you speak to, competence or incompetence. This presumably means that he track record on health will be serious baggage or serious benefit. I'd have thought working that out was more important than congratulating her or condemning her for not learnng Welsh!
I find it ironic that in a world where the welsh-bashers pretend that only welsh -speakers get jobs, we now have the same welsh-bashers deciding whether or not to like certain leadership candidates not on how well they've been doing their current job but how how anti-welsh they're perceived to be.
As I've said - bonkers.
Isn't Stoney getting more and more surreal?
And now why are you guys so against a referendum? Only last week you were demanding one immediately.
This is my only contribution here for the evening - I'm strictly limiting my fish in barrel shooting, and though I know Noah and Wilko and the whole gang will be over soon, I'm going
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I thought it was Mapexx and Noah's job to be the trolls here...
Anyway I think we can ignore the anti Welsh comments and concentrate of the meat as it were..... Edwina is playing hard to get, but it is clear there is a movement to draft her.. Any idea who backs who in the Assembly group? What is the gossip there?
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The "news" about Edwin Hart refusing to learn welsh is a joy to be hold and if I was a labour member i'd have sticker on my window immediaely. Should imagine the welsh language fanatics will soon be calling her a "welsh hater",which will endear he to the english only speakers who could'nt give a stuff about the welsh language. This could be the "stalingrad" defeat of welsh language fanatics with hopefully an end to enforced welsh language learning in public sector. GO GO EDWINA!!!!
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If it is one of Huw Lewis' brothers, cousins, imaginary friends who penned the New Statesman piece (as seems likely) then I look forward to more of the same passive aggressive blog pieces from Edna Hart, and Tegwyn James. Or Oona Start and Barry Tames indeed.
Fun. But it would be nice to hear something substantial from the contenders. As a mostly labour voter, who might turn to Plaid. Please? Pretty please?
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I'm sorry to tell the Welsh language haters (Igotitallwrongsorry, West-Wales, Cardiffian2008, TheStonemason, Mapexx, Noah etc - probably the same person lol!!), who seem to spend most of their sad, pathetic lives slagging off anything to do with the Welsh language, but Edwina Hart is well respected by most Welsh speakers. As a strong supporter of the Welsh language myself, I’d definitely prefer Edwina Hart to be the next First Minister than Carwyn Jones or Huw Lewis. She is a strong supporter of the Welsh language, and I expect her to support strong policies that will ensure that the Welsh language continues to strive. GO GO EDWINA!!!!
It is superb to see more and more youngsters going to Welsh schools, the level of under 16's is nearly 40%. Just like the dinosaurs, these Welsh language haters will die out, and leave as all to live in peace in this beautiful bilingual country called Cymru/Wales.
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You Welsh folk get really excited and into your debates and arguements don't you. They're a pleasure to read.
However, you should be more laid back like us Scots, and simply reach for the whisky bottle.
Death by alcohol poisoning is no worse than having a coronary !
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Bonheddwr ??? = daverodway
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Scroggie @10
simply reach for the whisky bottle.
Sometimes the only answer!!!
Death by alcohol poisoning is no worse than having a coronary !
Its probably better than the future some of the more way out Weslh politicians have in mind for us !!!
Join me with a dram of my Favourite "Johnnie Walker Gold Label".
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Well West-Wales, there is one thing for certain, Bonheddwr is not the Gentleman that Google Translate renders this new name.
If it's not a Looney Tunes Roadrunner it's a good imitation of lunacy in print.
Back on Betsan's thread, is there a leader amongst the contenders strong enough to take the government departments, and quangos, by the scruff and shake out the dead wood and hangers-on who contribute little to good governance. I don't think so, the incentive is to expand their little empires, not to insist on good housekeeping, has any of the leadership contenders created any real wealth for the country, do they understand wealth creation ?
Which one is strong enough to dump Plaid, the Albatross of the Welsh political landscape.
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14.Could Bonheddwr be Fi.Dafydd? The anti english bile expressed in his
recent postings seem to suggest so. Changing handles doesn't hide the
heinous style but where are the moderators?
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My post 5 was removed - rewritten to hopefully meet the Moderators approval:
Reference daverodway's post 66 on drip, drip, drip.
I only come here occasionally to help with psychology MA in the internet and anonymity.
Suggest we avoid commenting or responding to his attempts to stimulate and study our "interesting response's".
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13
I think this counts as racist. Substitute another (non-Welsh) worrd at various points and look what you get.
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[ "I hear that throughout the Welsh Health Sevice, strategically placed language enforcement pawns " , in other words "here's another pointless anti-welsh rant I've made up whic hI can;t give evidence for and can make anonymously".]
I dont need to Daverodway! I know from experience that what I said will strike a chord with anybody who has worked for the Welsh NHS or knows somebody that has. I'm not here to appease you.
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You make very good point Mappex.Also Cadifan2008 make good point.How are turnips?
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# 2 Cardiffian2008: you said:
"Edwina Hart, the health and social services minister, is well liked among her peers, but refuses to learn Welsh"
I'm warming to her! :)"
Then you go on to state that hearsay has it that the NHS in Wales is full of...."strategically placed language enforcement pawns" - so Edwina presides over an organisation that is pressurising people to speak Welsh then does she?
And you warm to her?
How strange!
Personally I think she has done an outstanding job for the NHS and for Wales - a Devolutionist by conviction and a solid supporter of the language if her voting record is anything to go by! GO GO EDWINA!!!!
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Returnee @17
I think this counts as racist.
Disagree - this is a difficult area of debate, seriously divisive.
If you have to play the race card you are admitting your other arguments are without substance.
This is a debate between Welshmen (nothing to do with race,) about whether or not we should have draconian language legislation, that disadvantages a large section, 80%, of the population, is criminally expensive and driven by an extremist minority.
Mapexx is right - the language of the Welsh is English.
After all 80% are monoglot English - of the remaining 20% all are bilingual English/Welsh.
To suggest on those figures Wales is Bilingual is a nonsense, and as we often find legislating for something does not make it so!!
Those who wish to use, educate their children, in the Celtic language should be free to do so.
Those who don't shouldn't be forced too, nor should they have to pay to meet a minority aspiration.
Its worth reflecting on what drove the Victorians to produce the "Blue Book" the enforcement of the proposals of that study, were the catalyst that produced the Welsh Nationalist and Language movements.
But the reason for the 1830's study was the desperate poverty and illiteracy that prevailed in parts of Wales at that time.
That poverty and educational failure was almost entirely confined to monoglot Welsh speaking areas.
The problem was these people simply could not communicate or trade with the rich progressive Britain invigorated by the industrial revolution and the vision and ideas of Victorian engineers.
On the continent where I do a lot of work all essential technical & legal documents are written in one language (often English).
Translations are not accepted for discussion or the resolution of issues, because a translation may contain errors or ambiguities.
If you are not literate in the language used, you are not competent to be involved.
As English is the universal scientific, technical, and European language it is the main choice.
This is why there is mileage in the idea that no translations should be made of speeches in the Assembly - No translation = No errors or ambiguity.
Our representatives will then use the language that best fits with their target audience.
Who do we want to hear this and understand.
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"But the reason for the 1830's study was the desperate poverty and illiteracy that prevailed in parts of Wales at that time.
That poverty and educational failure was almost entirely confined to monoglot Welsh speaking areas"
Now that is absolute total nonsense. You might find it hard to believe West-Wales but literacy levels amongst Welsh speakers at this time were the highest in the world. Look up SPCK, GRiffith Jones, Llanddowror and Catherine the Great.
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#22
You are a bit out with dates Dewi, it was quite a bit prior to the inquiry into the state of education in Wales when Wales was considered a great educational success. A point that most people forget, or choose to avoid, is that at this time education throughout the UK, for the majority, was at a very low ebb.
William Williams gave a great service to education, throughout the UK, by calling for the enquiry and report, this is an aspect that many choose to ignore.
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21
I feel that remarks such as "thickos from Cymru (fantasy la la land)" are pushing things pretty far.
Also, for 'desperate poverty and illiteracy' I commend post 13. I gave up counting its grocerisms.
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Yes Stony - the initiatives were earlier but they solidified the nonconformism and bible based literacy which beacme the norm - I suspect that this the primary reason why the bulk of the thousands of in-migrants in the early 19th century quickly became Welsh speaking. We've been down the Blue books road before but surely any impartial reader of the inquiry would admit that there was an irrational anti-Welsh language slant pusued by the three monoglot English Anglicans.
Quoting your hero Williams:
"...instead of appearing as a distinct people, in no respect differ from the English".
From the intro:
"The Welsh language is a vast drawback to Wales and a manifold barrier to the moral progress and commercial prosperity of the people"
Moral progress? - total utter complete racist bull.
...and know you've got me posting on the language again...Aaargh..
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Why is this translation thing such an issue???
This blog has proved that you can translate welsh to english (or lots of other languages) via google instantly.
OK, so translations are not perfect but then they never will be.
Wouldn't the Assembly would be better off talking to google rather than commissions and WLB.
and also agree with 21. technical documents etc really need to be fully understood by all it's readers and english is the language for this. At the moment anyway ;)
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# 21 West-Wales
"If you are not literate in the language used, you are not competent to be involved.
As English is the universal scientific, technical, and European language it is the main choice. "
Are you saying that English is the main language of choice in Europe? If that's so then its a different Europe to the rest of us. According to the EU German is the most widely spoken first language in the European Union (followed by French), with almost a third of the people being able to speak it.
You have a fair point about translation and accuracy - why not just leave documents in the original language that they were spoken/written in, and forget translating altogether?
Leave the English documents in English only and leave the Welsh documents in Welsh only - without any translating at all. That should save us all a packet.
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"This blog has proved that you can translate welsh to english (or lots of other languages) via google instantly.
OK, so translations are not perfect but then they never will be."
It's strange the way that Google translate learns to get better. It doesn't use language rules as much as learning by example. One of the corpus of traslated work it relies on to improve is the Assembly record of proceedings ironically. So the way to get Google translate better - which would be great for everyone - is to continue translating.
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Thank you Dewi - #22
It was not my intention to start an argument on the Blue Books,
your post 25,
We've been down the Blue books road before but surely any impartial reader of the inquiry would admit that there was an irrational anti-Welsh language slant pursued by the three monoglot English Anglicans.
If you rewrite it to read;
We've been down the Blue books road before but surely any impartial reader of the inquiry would admit that the three non Welsh speaking English Anglicans were misled by information from witnesses, many of them landowners and Anglican clergymen at a time when Wales was a stronghold of Nonconformism.
I will agree with you.
Your second point an extract from the Blue Book introduction:
"The Welsh language is a vast drawback to Wales and a manifold barrier to the moral progress and commercial prosperity of the people"
Moral progress? - total utter complete racist bull.
In yesterdays way of thinking, I understand the "moral progress" bit, but today it is clearly rubbish. - But the rest of it, even in today's terms has merit.
The racist bull comment is unhelpful, I see Returnee is trying that insult.
Is Plaids new tactic is to label all who disagree with the Language legislation "Racists".
Suggest you take your blood pressure tablets :)
Back to post #22
The Blue books, or the "Reports of the commissioners of enquiry into the state of education in Wales" published in 1847, were the report of a public inquiry carried out as a result of pressure from William Williams MP, a Welshman by birth who was concerned about the state of education in Wales.
The enquiry was carried out by three English commissioners, R. R. W. Lingen, Jellynger C. Symons and H. R. Vaughan Johnson. The commissioners visited every part of Wales during 1846, collecting evidence and statistics.
The report was detailed;
It concluded that schools in Wales were extremely inadequate, often with teachers speaking only English and using only English text-books in areas where the children spoke only Welsh, and that Welsh-speakers had to rely on the Non-conformist Sunday Schools to acquire literacy.
Welsh Academia led by Robert Jones Derfel whose book-length response "Brad y llyfrau gleision" was published in 1854 strongly repudiated the books findings.
Saunders Lewis, in Tynged yr iaith, considered the Blue Books were for Welsh history "the most important nineteenth-century historical documents we possess".
The Books are an invaluable, perhaps biased as are all historical reports, source of information on mid-19th century Welsh society.
I wonder was it, the opening up of Wales by the Railways, or the widespread ability to communicate in English, that lifted Wales into the 20th Century, and improved the quality of life for many Welsh people.
It is clear since the closure of the railways and devolution and the enforcement of the Celtic Language, Wales is starting to slip back into the darkness.
The research will probably never be done, or if it is, like the study and response to the Blue Books, it will be from a single perspective, one-sided, solely to justify a political position.
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#25
Dewi you took offence when none was offered, and I certainly have no intention of debating map's "Cymraeg".
I am of the opinion that there was not so much an "anti-Welsh language slant", as out and out detestation for nonconformist activity by the Anglican Welsh who reported to the three English commissioners, I though they were lawyers, the language is a side issue, although of some merit when considering "commercial prosperity at the height of the British Empire" at that time. But 150 years on, who gives a jot, history cannot be changed, the future can be formed ....... the Conservative way preferably.
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Re 15
Again, I go away for a few days and find that the lunatics once again take over the assylum.
Sorry to disappoint you thegnatswatter, but I am still FiDafydd and only FiDafydd. The ability of the antis to see conspiracies is still second to none...
And the fact that a clueless reporter makes a ridiculous comment about Edwina Hart just opens the usual bigoted floodgates, let's face it, is no surprise.
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Cilmyn #27
According to the EU German is the most widely spoken first language in the European Union (followed by French), with almost a third of the people being able to speak it.
True - but English is by far the most common second language, with nearly all Europeans extremely fluent and literate.
I have just returned from a business trip to Denmark.
The company has a strict English only rule.
Meetings, documentation, even Emails are in English.
The reason is simply that they employ people from all over the World, English is the common language and there are no conflicts.
In fact all over Scandinavia and the rest of Europe, if at meetings there are other Nationalities present, English is the default language.
It is only in France that companies insist on the National language, if you are not French literate doing business there is difficult.
If anyone anywhere in the World publishes a technical or Scientific paper the Language is almost always English, it is the universal language - if you want people to read what you have to say, or communicate internationally, that's what you use.
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Re 29
Just as West-Wales was unable recently to tell us what dip he had spotted in the English-speaking population of Pembrokeshire because of efforts to help and protect the Welsh language, now he is writing some further nonsense about going back into the darkness - an unfortunate phrase to say the least. How does increasing the number of bi-lingual people in Wales mean less English speakers?
If it is a state of darkness - then please explain to me how I am able to talk to you like this in your language?
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"Is Plaids new tactic is to label all who disagree with the Language legislation "Racists""
No just the Commissioners.
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#34
Are you referring to the Blue Books commissioners as racist ?
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Is Wales bi-lingual?
Today, the arguement appears to be that as 21-29% (depending on the definition used) speak both English and Welsh, Wales is a monolingual country.
This points to an interesting future:
In 20-30 years time, AngryBlogger will be arguing that as 35-45% of people in Wales speak both English and Welsh, Wales is a monolingiual country.
In 50-60 years, ReallyAngryBlogger will be arguing that as 50-65% of people in Wales speak both English and Welsh, Wales is a monolingual country.
Life is much simpler when people rub along quietly. Thank goodness for the 'water of life' as our friend from the North observed.
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36 Come on Returnee - you can do better than that (I hope)!
However in your final sentence you seem to be getting close to what we are saying;
Life is much simpler when people rub along quietly
Why use legislation to force 70%+ of the population to bow to your demands.
The current irrational translation argument in the Assembly demonstrates just how mind numbingly stupid this whole issue has become!!
The stance of those demanding expensive overnight translation, despite being able to understand the language of the speech, is quite beyond reason.
Why can't we just rub along together, and start using a bit of common sense.
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" Are you referring to the Blue Books commissioners as racist ?"
Yes
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#38
Unjustifiable insult, without foundation, probably intended to generate a heated response.
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Foundation is:
"The Welsh language is a vast drawback to Wales and a manifold barrier to the moral progress and commercial prosperity of the people"
That's a racist statement in my opinion. Barrier to moral progress my a*se.
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Well Dewi, I must admit I'm not sure what the compilers meant by "..... a manifold barrier to the moral progress .....", but the other two aspects of the Welsh language in the context of the British Empire were rapidly taken up by parents, we do much the same today, encourage children towards the more successful activities.
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I don't know much about the Blue Books controversy, but the statement quoted by Dewi does seem to advocate state and/or institutional racism. By identifying the language of the Welsh as "a manifold barrier" to their moral and economic progress the implied solution is to get rid of the language and help the Welsh to be more moral and prosperous. The moral and economoic standards here of course are supplied by the compilers of the books, who are from another country and class, which is presumed to be superior and capable of judging others. The necessary attitude of all Empire builders of course.
So it does seem to be ethnic discrimination, which by todays standards is considered to be the same as racial discrimination (according to the U.N.)
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Still no answer from West-Wales I see! Interesting.
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FiDafydd #43,
I don't spend my life blogging, I actually have a life outside of cyberspace. So there will be delays in my responses.
Nor do I normally respond to provocation :)
However to clear the two points you raise;
1/ You say West-Wales was unable recently to tell us what dip he had spotted in the English-speaking population of Pembrokeshire because of efforts to help and protect the Welsh language,
My argument is that the Welsh Language legislation and the activities of the WLB, are destroying the indigenous culture and language of Pembrokeshire south of the Lansker, this culture has roots back to Neolithic times and is far older than the Celtic culture that is being forced on us.
Similar damage is being done across Wales to other important parts of our heritage that are not Celtic in origin.
Further the efforts currently being employed to help and protect the minority Celtic (Welsh) language, are misguided, wasting valuable resources, damaging the language, and divisive, setting Welshman against Welshman.
Your accusation deliberately misrepresents my view, and is personally offensive.
2/ You comment on my post #29 where I suggest Wales is starting to slip back into the darkness.
Over a millennia the warring tribes of Britain have slowly coalesced (with much bloodshed) into a united Nation.
That nation has developed over the centuries, bringing us Britons an ever improving standard of living, great technical and scientific advances, education that was the envy of the world, and protected us against invasion.
Probably most importantly we have developed a code of civilisation, its roots in the Magna Carta, that has formed the basis of free speech and protection from unfair government across all western communities.
The deliberate break up of the United Kingdom, the diversion of resources away from core infrastructure, health and education, and into cultural experiments, that are at best a distraction, at worst a divisive political weapon. Are all steps down away from the age of enlightenment, and into the darkness of poverty, and isolation.
I could go on and develop the idea, but fear your mind is closed, so there is little point
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message 42....
When will you people get it into your very stubborn heads that no matter what name calling you get involved in, between those from one part of the UK, to any other, there is absolutely not the slightest hint of 'racist' or 'ethnic' discrimination involved in such.
For that sort of matter to be viable, there would HAVE to be defined racial or ethnic differentials, which patently, between any part of the UK population, (immigrants excepted) there is none.
Now if I were to call a Cymraeg speaking black, Welsh born, person a unacceptable name, or abused him with other similar rhetoric, because of his ethnic background, that would, and should be, treated as racial abuse, but by saying any Welsh person is or is not something or other, be it derogatory or otherwise, it simply cannot be classed as racial, or ethnic abuse.
Get your argument straight, you want to re-invent the Welsh, or at least the Cymraeg speaking minority into something it obviously is not.
Once again emotion takes precedence over reality.
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"The Welsh language is a vast drawback to Wales and a manifold barrier to the moral progress and commercial prosperity of the people"
Well the commissioners thought we were a "people" with extremely sinful morals. Racist clap-trap.
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"My argument is that the Welsh Language legislation and the activities of the WLB, are destroying the indigenous culture and language of Pembrokeshire south of the Lansker, this culture has roots back to Neolithic times and is far older than the Celtic culture that is being forced on us."
1) I challenge you to name a single person in South Pembrokeshire who has lost the English language.
2) Remind me why pre-plantation Pemrokeshire was different to any other part of Wales?
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Re 44
My mind is no more closed than yours it would seem.
There is a basic contradiction in your logic. You decry all attempts to support the Welsh language, but to do nothing, according to your argument, would help support the 'indigenous' culture of (south) Pembrokeshire - and that would in itself, and by definition, be a 'political' statement and act. And, therefore, one political strategy is fine by you, the other you seem to regard as being almost evil.
Welsh-speaking areas have had to deal with bilingualism (at best!), whether they wanted it or not, for decades. Now the shoe is on the other foot, and it seems that it's the end of the world!
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Dewi #47
I challenge you to name a single person in South Pembrokeshire who has lost the English language.
I have not, and did not make that claim - it is one of FiDafydd's malevolent, misrepresentations.
Please reread my #44 post, this time with a little more care!
Your 2/ it wasn't particularaly though there is evidence of a higher more developed population, however south of the Lansker there has been little impact from Celtic incursions.
The Pembrokeshire dialect has the same roots as the dialect of ancient Wessex. Many of its distinctive words are thought to be pre-Chaucerian, while others, as would be expected, reveal the influence of Flemish, Irish and Scandinavian.
In 1603 George Owen wrote that names and architectural styles in the area were English to such an extent that it could be termed “Little England Beyond Wales”.
The late Pembrokeshire scholar BG Charles listed nearly 2,000 dialect words recorded in the county in his book The English Dialect of South Pembrokeshire.
In 1930, PV Harris wrote that the dialect was “the most fascinating in Britain, and owing to the country’s remoteness, perhaps the least adulterated in recent years”.
I refer you to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_England_beyond_Wales for a fuller account.
However modern research is revising much of the thinking around the time the precursor language arrived in Pembrokeshire and what it replaced.
This is not yet reflected in the Wiki comments.
The south Pembrokeshire coast from at least 2000BC (perhaps earlier), and through the centuries leading up to the turn of the millennium, appears to have been part of a trading empire stretching all the way down the Atlantic Coast of Africa, the mediterranean, and up to the Baltic.
It seems Devon and Cornwall were also part of this culture.
It is a pity if this heritage is to be lost, simple because of the current short sighted desire to Celtify every part of Wales.
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My #50
a single person in South Pembrokeshire who has lost the English language.
For clarification, I am refering to the Pembrokeshire language and culture not modern English.
FiDyffd #48
You decry all attempts to support the Welsh language,
That is nonsense and deliberate provocation, you know that is not what I said, or what I believe.
I was quite clear:
the efforts currently being employed to help and protect the minority Celtic (Welsh) language, are misguided, wasting valuable resources, damaging the language, divisive, and setting Welshman against Welshman.
There are better more effective less divisive ways.
Ways that will protect the full range of Welsh heritage.
Your final paragraph clearly indicates your view the damage being done to Wales by this misguided legislation is valid retribution.
So be it - No point in further debate with you :)
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Re 51
You seem to be unwilling to debate, however, I have to ask one question. How on earth can you claim that it is the help given to the Welsh language that is creating difficulties for the 'Pembrokeshire language' of which you are rightly proud? Surely that is down to the new Anglo-American English language hegemony.
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And I would love to see some evidence that Welsh wasn't the language of the population of southern Dyfed (as it was then) prior to the Norman Conquest and plantation of the area.
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message 53....
I would not wish to enter an argument based on such a wild thesis, but will quite happily tell you, that according to researched population figures, the population, therefore demographics of language, in pre Norman times, in virtually all regions of this part of Britain, would have been so very low, as to hardly impact on the sort of implication you are attempting to make out.
The population of the whole of Britain at that time was probably less than the population of the Wales of today. And, as research has also shown to be the case, what language fluency in ANY language was extant was probably due to the westwards flow of displaced Britons, which is nearer the truth about our ancient forebears, than all the crap spouted about the Celts etc.
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So your argument is that the population was so low as not to know what they spoke? I think you talk rubish on this.
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You waffle on and on west wales, but you don't answer questions put to you......answer the questions
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He talks rubbish on everything,Lyn...so nothing new there then
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#55....
I suggest you LEARN to READ, and COMPREHEND.
I implied no such meaning, what I said was 'fluency in any language',....because Lyn, it may not have crossed your one track Cymro mind, but Cymraeg was not the only language displaced by that westward, plus northwards, drift. Unless of course you can inform me differently, nothing in what I said to say they knew not what they spoke.
It seems that is however your failing, English is the language of this blog, and it would appear 'you know not what is spoken on here'
As for message 56 and 57....
....there speaketh the great oracle of the one line insult.
Absolutely nothing to add, even in contradiction, just the same old nonsensical Nat nut, spouting out his inanities yet again.
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Lyn #53
Is your interest Academic or political?
The earliest Mesolithic site in Wales is Nab Head, Pembrokeshire, dated around 9,200 years ago.
The La Tène culture is traditionally associated with the Celts, and the until fairly recently it was thought that the appearance of this culture around 500BC in North Wales indicated a large-scale invasion by peoples who also brought a Celtic language which later developed into Welsh.
The current view is that any movement of peoples was on a small scale, with cultural diffusion responsible for most of the changes.
There is evidence to support the latter model, such as burials associated with earlier religious sites and recent genetic research.
It is thought that a Celtic language was being spoken in parts of Wales by about 700 BC.
However South Pembrokeshire, and in fact virtually all the south coast of Wales was closely connected to what is now South West England, Devon and Cornwall and sea traders from a wide area. It had a defined culture seperate from the rest of Wales, and certainly an independent language.
In the early centuries of the first millennium there were close ties between Pembrokeshire and Southern Ireland.
Late in the fourth century an Irish tribe, the Deisi, from Co. Meath in Ireland, migrated to Pembrokeshire under their leader, Eochaid Allmuir, and established a royal dynasty that was to rule in south-west Wales for some five centuries.
There language was Primitive Irish which transitioned into Old Irish through the 5th century. This is the earliest form of Irish for which there are extensive written texts.
The Deisi provided the first written records known in Pembrokeshire, in the form of inscribed stones bearing the names of those who were considered worthy of commemoration.
The writing was in Latin or in ogham, an Irish alphabet designed for ease of cutting on the edge of a stone pillar.
It is thought that some Irish Monasteries hold documents relating to Pembrokeshire, predating the earliest currently known written records but these have not been researched.
There is no lingual linkage with the local language or dialect which indicates the primitive Irish language did not supplant or combine with the existing indigenous tongue, which has yet to be identified.
Though almost certainly eventually some families with a Celtic cultural background settled in the area these were a minority - and the earliest written record of Welsh is a 9th century poem "Edmyg Dinbych"
The time of Bishops from the 5th century was important, Pembrokeshire lay on the route of the Celtic saints, as the early missionaries were known, and the period is is well documented.
The language of these clerics included Welsh, but they did not influence or impact local culture.
Through the 11th and 12th centuries by barborous Celtic tribes - all eventually repulsed.
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Dear me West Wales - barbarous Celtic tribes eh....
Pre Norman structure of Pembrokeshaire based on "cantrefi" or hundreds - within the Welsh kingdom of Dyfed. These were:
Cemais, Deugleddyf, Pebidiog, Penfro and Rhos.
You are the first person in the history of the World to suggest that pre Norman Pembrokeshre wasn't as Welsh speaking as anywhere else in Wales.
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Dewi #60
My #59
as I'm sure you understood my last sentence should have read;
Through the 11th and 12th centuries raided by barbarous Celtic tribes - all eventually repulsed
re your #60;
pre Norman Pembrokeshre wasn't as Welsh speaking as anywhere else in Wales.
Well now - am I?
Of course we are considering Pembrokeshire south of the Lansker!
Firstly - Early linguistic evidence is extremely rare because
northern Europe was non-literate during most of the first millennium
BC.
When writing was adopted in the late first millennium it appeared almost entirely in Greek and Latin.
Of course the “traditional” view is that the area was cleared of native Welsh by the Norman invaders in the early 12th century, and was planted with Flemings from elsewhere in England.
But there is no historical information what language was spoken, however there is secondary evidence that a form of English was the language of the area.
Brut y Tywysogion in the medieval Welsh chronicle mentions many battles in southwest Wales and sackings of Menevia (St David's) in the pre-Norman period. Sometimes these were stated to be conflicts with Saxons, sometimes with people of unspecified origin.
George Owen in 1603 pointed out that there was no trace of Flemish custom or language in his time.
It would be odd if Flemish speakers, marooned in an area surrounded by Welsh speakers, should have acquired English.
In fact, traditional Pembrokeshire English is lexically related to the Early English of southwest England, and in all probability the anglicisation of the South Wales coast paralleled the anglicisation of Devon and Cornwall, between 500 and 700.
Of course the transition from Brittonic to the early Cymru Welsh (from a synthetic to an analytical language structure) is thought to have taken place somewhere between 400 and 700 AD, it seems the Pembrokeshire dialect appeared around the same time.
However of more interest is the earlier history of south Pembrokeshire, there is strong evidence of Mediterranean, and other influences on the narrow coastal band.
There are hints of a connection with a neolithic (perhaps even mesolithic) trading empire. It would be interesting to establish the real history.
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"But there is no historical information what language was spoken, however there is secondary evidence that a form of English was the language of the area."
Ther is absolutely zero evidence, primary or secondary, that English was the language of the area pre plantation. With all due respect you are sounding like one of those Ulster Unionists who think Ulster was somehow different from the rest of Ireland pre-plantation.
There's absoluely nothing wrong in being proud of heritage and history. I think South Pembs history is fantastic - especially the Cambro-Norman relationship with Lord Rhys and Irish invasion.
Just there's no need to make stuff up - it's uneccesary.
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"the anglicisation of Devon and Cornwall, between 500 and 700"
On a matter of fact Cornwall was not anglicised at all during this period.
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Dewi I will ignore your #62 as unworthy (it would be so easy to respond :) ) - all information given is easily available, that which isn't published or peer reviewed I have avoided.
Your comment that Devon and Cornwall was not anglicised between 500 and 700, is a matter of some controversy, the Anglo - Saxons were certainly active in the area at this time, and while there were battles for control, there was also considerable peaceful contact.
From about AD 55 to around 410 the Romans held some of Devon & Cornwall under military occupation, maintaining a naval port at Topsham and a garrison of the 2nd Augustan Legion at Exeter, which they called 'Isca'.
There were other scattered minor forts through the peninsula but little west of the Exe.
The date that the Anglo-Saxons began to settle in Devon is unclear and the subject of debate and research.
Religion seemed to cross the tribal boundaries; Gildas castigated a King Constantius of Dumnonia in about 540 AD for his behaviour. The Abbot of a Brythonic monastery in Exeter in the late 600's had a purely Saxon name, suggesting it was an Anglo-Saxon foundation. Bishop Aldhelm corresponded with King Geraint of Dumnonia in the late 7th century about religious differences.
The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle refers to a battle at "Peonnan" in 658. The Chronicle suggests that the British were then pursued to the River Parret. By 682, the Anglo-Saxons claimed that the British were driven “as far as the sea” at a location which is not defined.
The conquest of Devon and Cornwall by Wessex was, certainly a gradual process, whose chronology is unclear but was completed by the early ninth century.
My personal interest is the impact of prehistoric marine trade and inward migration along the southern coast of Wales and the coast of Devon and Cornwall.
The archaeological indications of a Neolithic marine trade (sometimes suggested to be phoenician) link well with the signs that there was a similar trade into South Pembrokeshire, but there is little hard evidence.
There certainly was considerable traffic and trade using what is now the Severn and Avon with Pembrokeshire, North Devon and Cornwall back into Mesolithic times.
Consider the probable route of the Blue Stones from Preceli to Stonehenge.
It is interesting that a recent DNA study showed that the population south of the Lansker are genetically indistinguishable from the indigeonous population of southern England.
Just to throw a wobbler into your safe Welsh Celtic Heritage;
As mentioned in #59 in the fourth century an Irish tribe, the Deisi, from Co. Meath in Ireland, migrated to Pembrokeshire under their leader, Eochaid Allmuir, and established a royal dynasty that was to rule in south-west Wales for some five centuries, the area was of course Demetia which became Dyfed.
So the heritage of the descendants of ancient Dyfed are descended from the Deisi and their ancestral language is probably Goidelic not Brythonic.
It is also worth remembering that the name Welsh or Wales originates from the Germanic word Walh or Waelisc, which referred to foreigners, sometimes those who had been "Romanized". - Many early references to Welsh are not referring to Celtic people - be careful!!!
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