Drip drip drip
It isn't always easy to tell what it is you're hearing in the rush of noise that is a party conference.
You can always make out the sound and fury of course, the soundbites and the drums being beaten over issues that suddenly gain in importance with months to go to a General Election. But making out what I'd describe as a drip ... drip in the background is harder work.
Plaid held a Q+A session with Ministers in Llandudno, where Ieuan Wyn Jones was asked about 'the referendum' or for those of you who drop in only now and then, the referendum to boost the Assembly's law-making powers ... the one Labour and Plaid made central to their power-sharing deal ... the one they've pledged to hold on or before the 2011 Assembly election as long as it's felt the public want one.
That's where Emyr and the Appetite Testers come into things (or Emyr and the Persuaders as True Wales see it).
Ieuan Wyn Jones was entirely clear in his answers to the questions put to him. There was no need to strain to make out his message.
"It's very important" he said, "that everybody out there knows what the
constitutional goal of this party is. I think it's very important that we don't hide that and the public knows it. What we have to be is be open - say to people where we stand on the
constitution.''
In other words the long-term goal of Plaid Cymru remains an independent Wales.
The quiet stirring of shifting sands came care of Plaid's deputy housing minister Jocelyn Davies. She raised the possibility, as did the Presiding Officer some months back, of holding a referendum on the same day as the 2011 election.
"I think we should consider it, put a good case to the Electoral Commission
and perhaps they could clarify whether they would be opposed to it or not,'' she said.
Many of those there listening thought they'd heard the Electoral Commission saying back in May that it was a very bad idea. With the best interests of the voter being their main concern, they'd said "that referendums on fundamental issues of national importance should be held separately from other polls".
They'd honed in on the danger of multiple choice-type manifestoes depending on whether the referendum is won or not, the danger of confusing the voter, the danger that it would all "impact negatively upon voter engagement, turnout or outcomes in both polls".
It sounded and felt like a no-no.
But they hadn't stopped there. They'd added, back in May, that in the case of combining a referendum on the Assembly's law-making powers with an Assembly election, as in all cases "the Commission would consider any proposal in the circumstances at the time".
So would they be opposed to it, or not? Was it over-egging things to read their response as a no-no?
It sounds to me as though it was. There is, as one softly-spoken but crystal clear voice at the Commission put it to me, never a perfect scenario as far as timing goes. In the real world a referendum cannot always be separate. So? The Commission would certainly reiterate that having separate polls is better for the voter but they'd look at the case on its merits, should a case ever be put.
If you'd thought, then, that the Electoral Commission had frozen out the possiblity of a combined election and referendum day, it sounds clear to me that they haven't.
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
© MMX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~22~RS~)
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So Ieuan Wyn Jones confirmed the thin edge of the wedge, the next step would be to open the door to separatism, and all these months commentators have been dismissing the True Wales position as nonsense,.....
..... and all the while True Wales was in fact Truth Wales, .....
..... and the remainder were, ..... not to antagonise the more sensitive, ..... not exactly honest.
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Plaid held a Q+A session with Ministers in Llandudno, where Ieuan Wyn Jones was asked about 'the referendum' or for those of you who drop in only now and then, the referendum to boost the Assembly's law-making powers ...
Ieuan Wyn Jones was entirely clear in his answers to the questions put to him. There was no need to strain to make out his message.
"It's very important" he said, "that everybody out there knows what the
constitutional goal of this party is. I think it's very important that we don't hide that and the public knows it. What we have to be is be open - say to people where we stand on the
constitution.''
In other words the long-term goal of Plaid Cymru remains an independent Wales.
It looks like TRUE WALES are spot on with their message .... SLIPPERY SLOPE TO INDEPENDENCE
The proof is there to see more powers and independence are intrinsically linked.
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Very interesting Betsan. Surely relevant here are the stories that the UK govt has been placing in the press about the possibility of a referendum on changing the voting system to AV or AV plus on the same day as the UK general election. We haven't heard a peep out of the Electoral Commission about that, and I very much doubt we will!
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I'm sorry Betsan, I have to correct you on one technical point - I'm sure you don't want to be seen giving Plaid an easy ride.
They did not say that they would hold the referendum "on or before the 2011 Assembly election as long as it's felt the public want one."
The agreement with Labour says 'proceed to a successful outcome of a referendum for full law-making powers under part 4 as soon as practicable at or before the end of the Assembly term.'
No mention of popular public opinion.
That was a line they added later when the other parties started challenging them when it started to become likely that the referendum wouldn't happen.
Please in future don't buy their belated-spin. Do the job of a journalist and help hold them to account for the promises they have made?
Thank you.
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For Plaid like any nationalist party in the world the long term aim has to be independence. Devolution and more powers for the Assembly are merely stepping stones to the long term aim. Like Sinn Fein in Ireland before 1914 Federalism within the UK is not an option. Why anyone should express surprise at this is beyond me. The problem for Plaid however is that they are not confident that the next stage of the project will be successful. Despite all the opinion polls 1979 was a disaster and 1997 too close for comfort. If they were confident they would be arguing for a referendum now and not in 2011. Their aim is to get a yes vote for more powers but they have to ensure that the conditions are right. The best time would probably be after a period of Tory government in which all the problems caused by cuts in the Assembly budget could be blamed on the UK government led by Cameron. As in 1997 the Tories could be seen as the mid wife in the further match towards independence. The problem with this scenario is that it postpones any referendum until probably 2013 /14. The danger for Plaid with the 2011 option on the same day as the Assembly election is that again they don't know if it will awaken the sleeping majority who have shown little interest in the Assembly since its inception. In 1997 referendum the turnout was only 50.1%. By 2007 the turnout in the Assembly election was just 43.7%. Better than 2003 but still less than 1999. The odds are that many of those not voting are either not interested in the devolution and probably don't see that it is relevant. How these voters might vote in any further referendum could decide the fate of devolution for years to come. A higher turnout might even see Plaid lose rather than gain seats in the Assembly itself. Plaid should not believe that any cuts by the Tories in Westminster would automatically drive voters into the yes camp
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6
Having the chance to vote for proper devolution and your AMs at the same time makes sense. The more votes, the merrier.
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I really am getting cheesed off by the domination of the minority party Plaid Cymru, on this blog.
If Ieuan Wyn Jones just bends over and does up his shoe-lace, then Betsan immediately rattles off 500 words describing just how wonderfully he carried out the task. Not forgetting to inform us with just how much more verve and aplomb he carried it off. Far better than those leaders of the other parties could !!!!!
Plaid Cymru are nobodies in Welsh politics. The Welsh media, both press and TV. would tell us otherwise. Just look at the following....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/vote2005/html/region_10.stm
The blessed Plaid are in 4th place. These figures being taken from the most recent GENERAL ELECTION which in spite of Plaid's bluff and bluster remains the most important election.
The voters in Wales DON'T LIKE Plaid Cymru. They are treated on here like winners, when in effect they are losers. The Plaid infatuated media are way, way out of step with the voters. Why is that you may ask?
I can't tell you the reason why. Because if I did, this posting would be pulled. It would never see the light of day. No, the people of Wales are not daft. They won't be fooled by Plaid and it's media lackies. I hope in the next election they will vote for ANY party other than Plaid Cymru. Though the smart voters will vote tactically aginst Plaid Cymru and really rub their noses in it.
Perhaps then we will hear no more about a totally independent, Welsh speaking, (poverty stricken) Wales, which is the aim of Plaid Cymru.
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7 This blog is not domonated by Plaid Cymru - it is a Welsh politics blog that this week is reporting on the party conference of arguabally the second largest party in Wales (yes 4th on one measure - third on another - second on another). It has blogged on the 4th (or 3rd) parties leadership election, and the leadership campaign for the first party.
I am sure it will blog heavily around the impending referendum - and your views will be recorded no matter how irrelavant or bigotted.
I get tired of reading the stalinist ranting of some of the Labour dinosaurs who comment here, and the unionist apologists. I rarely support their views, but will always support their right to hold those views.
Grow up.
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" I really am getting cheesed off by the domination of the minority party Plaid Cymru, on this blog"
I'm getting fed up with maniacs posting on this blog.
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#8
Plaid Cymru ........... arguabally the second largest party in Wales (arguably)
..... at 12% of the vote, arguably a minor league provincial player.
your views will be recorded no matter how irrelavant or bigotted. (irrelevant or bigoted)
..... that is very plaid.
..... your labels, Labour dinosaurs and the unionist apologists, are a demonstration of shoddy rhetoric, juvenile at best.
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Betsan,
This is nothing to do with the electoral commission. A simutaneous referendum with the assembly election is simply impractical. It would require Labour, Lib Dems and Plaid to organise a collaborative 'yes' campaign whilst taking lumps out of each other in the traditionally immature process of an electoral campaign. Impossible to organise, baffling for voters and inadequate manpower resource in all parties to do both at once. If its gonna happen, look to the autumn of 2010.
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Well, I suppose I am what would be called a floating voter. Labour mostly, but with a soupcon of libdem and plaid thrown in for taste.
But this time, I'm leaning toward Plaid. And not just because of the drama queen Plaid hataz on this blog. Since Blair, Lab and Cons are indistinguishable - both are materialist parties with no imagination or vision, putting corporate interests before those of me and my brothers and sisters aka the people of wales. So no thanks lab and con.
Plaid though have something more than £$ at their heart. And thats endearing. Also they are the only left wing party in a country of workers. BUT they do all seem to be cymro farmers from west and north who can be quite rude when I go surfing up there with my sorry dim cymraeg valley accent. Ah quandary. Maybe the greens are worth a vote.
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Ieuan Wyn Jones was entirely clear in his answers to the questions put to him. There was no need to strain to make out his message.
"It's very important" he said, "that everybody out there knows what the constitutional goal of this party is. I think it's very important that we don't hide that and the public knows it. What we have to be is be open - say to people where we stand on the constitution."
In other words...
Well go on then Ieuan, where do you stand, it's all very well saying that it is very important for people to know where you stand but just where do you stand, go on, you can be open with me.
It is not for others to interpret what he is saying (or not) it is for Ieuan to say clearly and unequivocably just where he stands and just what he means, and as far as I can tell, he isn't for saying.
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# 13
Obviously implicitly subtextually and all that - Plaid want an independent Wales. Probably not gonna get it though, so they walk a tightrope. Many of us welsh people are nervous of the prospect of free will, and lack the confidence or imagination to entertain the idea of managing our own affairs. Too comfortable with our digiboxes and cheap booze perhaps.
Not unlike the rest of the western(ised) world of course. I know what I'm talking about because I freely admit that I'm a sukka for the BigMac. Can't fault it. More Beef says i and to heck with the sayers of nay.
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#14
No, read the quote, where does it say explicitly what he means ?
He says it is important for people to know where he stands but he doesn't actually say where he stands.
I want to hear it from the horses mouth, not other peoples interpretations of what they believe he might have said he stands for.
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10 Everything depends on which statistics are the more important to you. Taking each Welsh statistic, in no particular order:
European MEPs: Plaid & Conservatives Joint 1st
European Votes: Conservative 1st, Plaid 3rd
Westminster MPs: Plaid & Conservatives Joint 3rd
Westminster Votes: Conservatives 2nd, Plaid 4th
Assembly AMs: Plaid 2nd, Conservatives 3rd
Assemmbly FPTP Vote: Plaid 2nd, Conservatives 3rd
Assembly AV Vote: Conservatives 2nd, Plaid 3rd
Councils Councillors: Plaid 2nd, Conservatives 3rd
Now you can quote whichever figure suits you best, but overall I would say that Plaid & Conservatives are in joint second place in Wales, but with little to choose between them.
Like it or not, they are the facts.
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#16
Interesting figures, but your statement ......
..... Plaid & Conservatives are in joint second place in Wales, but with little to choose between them.
...... is the fascinating challenge soon to be joined on the political battlefield, General Election first.
The major issues of "finance" and "localism" are the Conservative weapons of choice, issues that DC has been speaking about for months past; Plaid constantly refer to the "no-cuts" economic options when the electorate know such a stance is unsustainable, and "socialism" by definition requires strong central government, it takes decision making away from the electorate; so I take your "little to choose between them", out of context I admit, and say .....
..... bring the election on, if DC can get things moving within the first 6 months, the Assembly elections will become quite a different animal, having to justify its existence in a world where power and responsibilities are being offered to local authorities. How will the Welsh quangos manage in a world where patronage is less assured, will Caerphilly and Gwynedd prefer to manage their own "tourism" in a style that fits round pegs into round holes, just one quango out of many.
I feel that less government is better government, and we in Wales have far too much governance.
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#4 and #13-14,
I'm just a naive Englander, new to this business, but I thought the point of his answer was that it's very important for Plaid to be clear about what its long-term goal is.
Since he doesn't say what that goal is, and contrary to Betsan's report, I'd take it that he doesn't want to commit to any of the options right now. That can only be because he isn't sure he knows what the party wants or will accept, or, alternatively, he isn't sure the electorate is ready for a clear statement.
I'd go for the second: Plaid knows what it wants, more or less. That it can't tell the electorate yet must mean it is trying to find a way of selling independence to an electorate that is at best uncertain and probably agin.
Or it could just be it doesn't know its own mind.
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Re 17
Stonemason,
"How will the Welsh quangos manage in a world where patronage is less assured"(?)
Well, yes, I suppose those bodies have rather fewer Old-Etonians working for them...
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9. At 9:53pm on 14 Sep 2009, Dewi_H wrote:
" I really am getting cheesed off by the domination of the minority party Plaid Cymru, on this blog"
I'm getting fed up with maniacs posting on this blog.
Oh come on our 'Dewi'. Pretty grim stuff, even by your usual dismal one-liner standards.
Though like you, I too am fed up with maniacs posting on here...nationalist maniacs.
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#19 FiDafydd
Still not certain I wish to communicate with you following your insults earlier .....
But to clarify my earlier ..... "How will the Welsh quangos manage in a world where patronage is less assured"
The patronage refers to the local authorities, this is the patronage of localism, where local people decide if a particular service is relevant to the electorate, for example a local authority might decide "Tourism" should be advertised in a particular way with a particular budget that is appropriate to its finances.
The local authority becomes the servant of the people, not its master; the Plaid way is reversed where the governance is master, and the electorate become servants of the state.
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17 When I said 'little to choose between them' I was not referring to policy matters, but whether Plaid or the Conservative could claim second place in Wales.
But when it comes to policy there are obviously major differences, but most of DCs statements to date have been very vague, talking about localism for instance. But nothing specific about what that means in a Welsh context.
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"Oh come on our 'Dewi'. Pretty grim stuff, even by your usual dismal one-liner standards.
Though like you, I too am fed up with maniacs posting on here...nationalist maniacs."
Seriously - why call it grim and then repeat it? Are your observations less grim somehow? I'm as guilty as anyone I admit but as a window to the world on Welsh political discourse this is...well...grim...
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#22
Read the Sunday Times for a major hint ..... Adam Rant - comment No 9 has the URL.
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24 I read that article before - but have checked it again in case I missed soemthing. It still says very little - apart from the publication of detailed expenditure data (cant disagree there) there is nothing specific, and nothing new. Wandsworth Council has been taking the 'EasyCouncil' route for years.
And as Local Government in Wales is a devolved matter, it will not be in the remit of a Cameron government to interfere - unless of course it wants to retake powers back from Cardiff Bay. Is that Conservative policy?? Despite the loony fringe led by David Davies, I dont think this is or will be a party policy.
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Re 21
Stonemason,
Not quite sure what insults...?
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Ignoring your insult to David Davies an elected MP who must have gained the majority of votes from your "loony fringe", uncalled for, the question of devolved matters in Wales is a very serious issue for the future, how will a devolved government in Wales be able to deny local democracy to the LAs in Wales. I for one will canvas for justice in this matter, how many will follow, how many will oppose the call for local democracy I wonder, ........
........ there you are, it has started in Wales, "what price local democracy".
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Reply to 23,
Dewi, in any 'grim posting' event I feel I would have to concede to your goodself. Having looked back over some of your previous posts it did come as some surprise that although correcting other posters is your forte, you do now and again, slip in the odd barbed gem.
Rather than the hit or miss 'scatter-gun' approach much favoured by many of us on here, quality rather than quantity seems to be the order of your day. Some of your stuff only just borders on being grim, indeed some is hardly grim at all. (wink)
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27 Democratic votes has never stopped you criticising Plaid MPs though has it....
But back on track - you are just repeating these bland aspirations - what exactly do you think Conservatives will do re local government??
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"In other words the long-term goal of Plaid Cymru remains an independent Wales"
Good job it's a long-term goal-because they've got a long road ahead of them selling the idea. First they'd have to show (a)how it would support itself (b)how it would deal with the job losses that would be caused by the UK public sector's withdrawl and (C)that it could survive a major crisis like the banking crash without UK taxpayers support. Judging by the posts on this blog they're not having much luck. Last but by no means least, they're going to have to convince the majority English-speakers to vote for it in a referendum. Given the way Plaid have pushed for Welsh language rights I can't see that happening somehow.
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Dewi-H #23
a window to the world on Welsh political discourse this is...well...grim...
Grimmer than a debate on the floor of the Senedd???!
Now that is serious - WE need to up our game!!
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Betsan
You write the long-term goal of Plaid Cymru remains an independent Wales.
A few thoughts;
1/ Do Westminster, or England, care - is it a fight among ourselves, or, do the rest of the UK want to keep us on board - if so for what reason, what do we contribute.
Are we more trouble than we are worth?
2/ Given that even post Independence, Plaid seem unlikely to get more than 20% of any vote.
Many lay the structural problems and failures of the current devolved Government at their door. (even though Labour, Davies and Hain are the Guilty Parties)
Seen as extreme, with no workable or acceptable ideas for building Wales. Plaid are considered irrelevant on the big issues by a majority of Welsh people.
At any Election after Independance Plaid may be wiped out.
If Plaid have little say in the serious task of setting up the relevant constitution and its process's, and have no say in Government.
Will that be an issue?
3/ Once we are Independent - Currently there are divisions, and some serious animosity, between Welshmen.
Few take much interest in politics - most just shrug their shoulders at things they disagree with.
With Independence it is likely many will become actively interested and try to get involved.
How will those differences play out.
Are the differences between us going to become a source of conflict.
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Me, I'm an unashamedly English speaking Brit, with my Welsh grandma, Irish grandma and two English granddads, I couldn't be anything but.
So, with good reason, I loathe the small gene pool worshipers of Llafur and Plaid. I especially loathe the druid Ron Davies, who sold devolution to English speaking S. Wales....as a regional assembly!!!
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This comment is awaiting moderation. Explain.
This comment is awaiting moderation. Explain.
On a completely different subject, going way off-topic, I was thinking about the lack of interest in local politics, and it got me thinking:
I was raised in Sarn near Bridgend. This is in the County Borough of Bridgend, the Constituency of Ogmore, and the electoral division of Sarn. That is all straight forward enough.
But for some obscure reason it is part of the Community of St Brides Minor (together with Bryncethin which is actually called Bryncoch as an electoral division). I am not aware of any such place as St Brides Minor, although there is a village of St Brides Major around 5 miles away in the Vale of Glamorgan.
Similarly I have relatives who live nearby in Heol-Y-Cyw, which is in the Penprysg electoral division and the community of Coychurch Higher (which is about 5 miles away from the village of Coychurch which is actually in the community of Coychurch Lower). Heol-Y-Cyw is almost the only settlement of any size in the area – why cant we call a spade a spade ?
It is hardly surprising that most people do not know who their local councillors are, let alone vote for them, when they do not even know where they are supposed to live !! (Although I accept not everywhere is as geographically confusing as Bridgend)
If we were to establish reasonable sized and recognisable communities (in my case say Sarn & Bryncethin) and elect members to the local council based on STV, the same 3 or 4 councillors elected to represent S&B on the Borough Council could then also form the Community Council. It should be possible to link the communities to our representatives much more effectively than at present.
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33 – no change from the 1930s then - the extreme right are still full of hatred and banging on about genetics and blood lines. Next thing he’ll be talking about setting up special camps to deal with those from the small gene pool.
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Noah, this blog isn't dominated by Plaid people it's dominated by people like you who are on record as claiming English-speakers are 'superior' and 'more civilised', or people like Jack asserting that Monmouth is English, or Stonemason claiming that Welsh-speakers are preparing 'ethnic cleansing' of us English speakers.
That's what people like you have made this blog into, I'm afraid.
As for Plaid supporters , they're out there rightly or wrongly canvassing for votes, and not, as you appear to be, stuck to your computers ranting at each other about Welsh-speakers, indepdnence or whatever.
For the record, Plaid is an independence party, and I don;t think you gain many points , even among your small clique, for revealing - like some kind of investigative reporter - that they're ... er...pro-indepdnence.
You guys can rant and abuse all day long, and goodness knows, you do, you can even try to libel Ron Davies for allegedly 'lying' (what? Ron Davies, leader of the Pro-Assembly campaign, lied about er... wanting an assembly!), but the fact is that no party, last of all your friends in the tory party, has a coherent line on devolution. Labour and the tories are deeply divided on it, and refuse to lay their cards on the table.
You're simply deluded, flate earthers if you think that devolution will go away. Now why not grow up and try to make it work, either by wanting more powers or rejecting more powers, rather than fighting your nutty cyber-battles on poor Betsan's blog?
You should also consider very carefully how your manic rantings are instrumental in converting, or at least giving people the final push, towards a pro-Plaid or a pro-Assembly viewpoint. Others have commented on this, and you ought to be self-aware enough to see that you're probably damaging your cause.
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"Seen as extreme, with no workable or acceptable ideas for building Wales. [...] considered irrelevant on the big issues by a majority of Welsh people."
That's a pretty good description of Stoney, Noah, Jack, ChristianCitizen and the regular 'Betsan's Blog' crew!
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Re 30
christiancitizen,
It is a nonsense often spouted on this blog that only Welsh speakers could possibly believe in independence for Wales, and that English speaking Welsh people have no truck with the idea of Wales as a nation. I'm sorry, but that is just that, nonsense; and what's more intellectually lazy nonsense.
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Re 33
... and what does having an 'Irish grandma' have to do with being a Brit?!
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Jacko - where's your evidence to suggest that Plaid are obsessed with gene pools? I'm Plaid, half-Italian, English-speaking and from Kairdiff. You're the only one obsessed with gene pool, as you're banging on about your grandparents!
Scratch a Welsh-hater and you find a hater of minorities, a hater of multiculturalism, and, in your case , someone who's prepared to tell big fat porkies about others and their political views.
The conservative party supported apartheid throughout its period in government and invited Jean-Marie Le Pen to tory conference in the early 1990s. The leader of the French National Front, by the way.
The day we in Wales takes lessons from the likes of you about tolerance and diversity will be a sad day indeed. Luckily, I might add, that day isn't going to come.
Anyone who reads this blog knows that the extremism, the linguistic supremacy, the paranoia and hate, is all on the side of the Welsh-haters. This blog has a reputation for it.
Some of us hope to salvage it for intelligent and relevant debate of Welsh issues, but you guys see it as a soap box for crackpots.
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message 37....
Not only the 'extreme' right have called for the setting up of a 'camp'.
Many, who are quite left wing, politically speaking, have suggested the Cymraeg/Cymro set up a little separate state, maybe on Ynys Mon, where they can play at being a nation for all they're worth.
You will get nowhere attempting to turn a rational argument, re the ever demanding nationalist agenda, against 'right wing' espousers, as there are many who oppose their oft times fascist policies, yet cannot take to hiving our homeland off into social, political, and global oblivion.
It goes beyond party politics, it remains a matter of whether we should become a nonentity of a state, or remain a regional, and functional, part of the greater whole, ...the United Kingdom.
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Mapexx - what are you on about? What 'camps'? Where? and you seem to think that a 'camp' and a 'state' are the same thing.
And what's your second paragraph about? Is that English? You talking about 'rational' argument , a lovely irony indeed. You could start with grammatically comprehensible and work up from there. No point in trying to run before you can walk...
As for your camps and little states, etc - you really have to learn to distinguish between what goes on in your head and what takes place in the real world. It would help with your comments.
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We must remember .....
..... not to remind people that Plaid Cymru are separatists, or might I use the word "sunderers", fat chance Plaidocrat, there's too much at stake.
There is no hatred on the Union side of this blog, only a detestation of those who would destroy our country.
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message 44....
Not my fault you cannot comprehend, far better to keep your ignorance to yourself, for fear of showing yourself up, as unable to understand perfectly rational English.
I suggest the 'real world' is slightly beyond your ability to comprehend.
But to close... if that is the best you can come up with, is it any wonder people get ratty with the likes of you ?
How about a constructive counter argument.
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Stoney, are you for real? Or a parody?
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45 There is no hatred....only detestation....
Quite.
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message 48....
Try copying the whole sentence, not chopping it to attepmt making some sort of skewed point.
It's known as 'taking things out of context' otherwise.
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49 Sorry Map, but he appears to be talking of the same people, and my cutting was therefore fully in context.
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#49
Thanks for that map...., it's the Plaid way, take something and twist it into mush, much like their imaginary policies for an imaginary world, and they wonder why "detestation of those who would destroy our country" is written. I wonder how Churchill would have responded during his premiership.
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Daveroway your 39.
The statement - "Seen as extreme, with no workable or acceptable ideas for building Wales. [...] considered irrelevant on the big issues by a majority of Welsh people." - was not mine but the result of research by Plaid.
It would appear that on this matter at least Stoney, Noah, Jack, ChristianCitizen and the regular 'Betsan's Blog' crew! have the support of the majority in Wales - 80% +!!!
Similarly - people like Jack asserting that Monmouth is English - are supported by the great majority of the residents of Monmouthshire.
Surely people have a perfect right to claim to be English.
But I must thank you - you have made my case perfectly.
My concern in post 32 item 3 was;
Currently there are divisions, and some serious animosity, between Welshmen.
Few take much interest in politics - most just shrug their shoulders at things they disagree with.
With Independence it is likely many will become actively interested and try to get involved.
How will those differences play out. (Post independence)
Are the differences between us going to become a source of conflict.
My post 32 was seeking the opinion of others issues affecting the possible independance of Wales.
It was not intended as an attack on anyone.
I suggest you reread it - you may have something to say on the matters raised.
However;
You are certainly not open minded to the opinions of others.
While you are right to say Plaid are a legitimate political party and have the right to canvass. - As have the BNP and the Loony Party.
Others equally have the right to point out the flaws in their ideas, and the paucity of talent of their politicians.
To label those who disagree with you as Welsh-Haters is unacceptable.
They have as much right to an opinion as you.
You should apologise
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"Similarly - people like Jack asserting that Monmouth is English - are supported by the great majority of the residents of Monmouthshire."
errr What? Source? Evidence?
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I think the evidence for being Welsh-haters is contained in comments by your chums calling english speakers superior, and welsh a 'primitive' culture, and so on. These are comments made on this blog, and which have been the subject of official complaints , by the way. No apology necessary, unless you feel like making one - I'm feeling magnanimous today Westy!
I note there are no comments from so-called Welsh extremists on this blog attacking English...
In what way do you people 'represent' or 'have the support of 80 plus' of the population? That is simply delusional. As you know, you don't, and there is no fact to support this. Your only fact is that 80 per cent don;t speak Welsh. It is delusional and extremist to claim the support of so many people on such slim pretext, and incidentally, without any correlative polls, statistic or whatever.
Most Welsh people don;t want independence, but that doesn't mean they hate Welsh, they're opposed to devolution, or indeed that they share your views
Here again, you're like the BNp who troll blogs claiming to 'represent' the so-called 'indigenous' population. You don't, any more than Plaid do.
As for Monmouth being English, the last poll done on that, if I recall, shows that the people who live there are ocmrehensively *not* English, and the English democrats who stood there got a pasting. Not least from the Tory MP for Monmouth who said it was 'absurd' and 'offensive' to claim Monmouth was anything other than Welsh.
What planet are you people on?
(still waiting for the 'facts' on the small 'state'/ 'camp' apparently being called for, by the way Mapexx!)
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message 50...
So you agree that those people are the ones formulating the sundering of the UK.
Are you amongst them?
Or will your resent being called over for such a stance regarding OUR homeland?
As Stoney stated, there are certain people out to split Wales from it's place in the Union, so you are either for that, or against it; I suppose you could be a 'mugwump', but that would require you kept schtum and stand aside from the debate would it not? Wait to see which side has the butter on it.
You cannot comment without being one side or t'other. So which is it to be, a 'sunderer' or a unionist, 'mugwumpism' not accepted.
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38. At 09:56am on 16 Sep 2009, daverodway wrote:
Noah, this blog isn't dominated by Plaid people it's dominated by people like you who are on record as claiming English-speakers are 'superior' and 'more civilised'
Dave!I am shocked, Whatever has come over you this afternoon? Have you been at the uncooked laver-bread again?
Can you not see a leg-pull when one is placed squarely in front of you? If I was also to say that English speaking women are more attractive than Welsh speakers, or that English speaking men are blessed with larger...ehm...equipment, than Welsh speakers, would you treat those remarks with the same po-faced seriousness ?
I am also rather surprised at your inaccuracy over this matter. You see Dave..EVERY Welsh speaker in Wales speaks English. Thus negating your supposed point that I was in some way inferring some kind of superiority for English speakers.....We are ALL English speakers aren't we Dave, ipso facto we are all equally intelligent and civilised.
I think this blog most certainly IS dominated by Plaid Cymru supporters. Just tell us all then, why is there not a regular 'cadre' of let's say Labour, or Tory, or Lib-Dem, or UKIP, or even another 'party' not worth mentioning, promoting their party on here?
If you are embarrassed at not being able to answer that question Dave, don't worry. I'm sure we all realize just how difficult it would be to justify your claims that there is no organized Plaid presence on here.
No hard feelings eh !
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No 45 - There is no hatred on the Union side of this blog, only a detestation of those who would destroy our country - No change there then from the extreme right wing of the 1930s. In the bizarre and crazed conspiracy theory riddled mind of the extremist there’s always an infection of the body politic that is undermining the mythical right thinking pure Briton - extrmists on this board rage against Welsh Language speakers, immigrants, Plaid Cymru voters, European Federalists, etc - and must be destroyed by any means necessary in order to purify the nation.
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"You cannot comment without being one side or t'other"
I see, so now one has to be an extremist on one side or the other to be allowed to enter your so-called 'dialogue' and 'debate'?
Rather let the cat out the bag here haven't we?
The idea that one might have an open mind on these issues, or indeed that one might be pro-devolution but neutral on independence, is beyond your wits ken , is it?
I first visited this blog in order to debate and keep up with day to political issues as outlined by Betsan on her posts. What I found was a small rump of the same old people banging on about Welsh, Monmouth's Englishness, Welsh-speakers and Plaid Cymru. In other words, and I've said it before, people unable to see or think past their hates.
The idea, expounded now by you Mapexx, that 'one cannot' comment unless one already has a fixed and extreme view, is both idiotic and , need I say it, wholly typical.
Yet again, you people really ought to think about whether your hysterically poor defences of your own position really helps your cause. You're too obvious about your hates and too obsessive about your bogeymen. I;d suggest Plaid employ you to spread the message, because frankly any cause you espoused would suffer for the espousal.
So no, sorry, I won;t play your 'only extremists allowed' game here. I remain pro-devolution and believe the Union is not sacrosanct and that it needs to be debated and probably recast if it is not to crumble. In that I agree with David Melding, the tory nationalist and federalist. An intelligent man, and someone you'd probably heap smears and insults upon, therefore.
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Re 49
mapexx,
What possible difference can you detect between the full and the shortened
sentence here? Perhaps you could explain.
Re 56
Noa,
Ah, the old British nationalist trick on here - get caught out, and it's a case of 'I'm only joking mun, where's your sense of humour.' I can tell you something for nothing, I laugh a hell of a lot after reading some of the masterpieces posted here every single day ...
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More than 80% of the population West of Offa's dyke do not support separation in any way, that is a majority, a great majority. Plaid, no-matter how it is dressed, it is a separatist organisation.
The Devil is in the details, and in the question of Welsh politics, Plaid and separation is the detail, in fact it is so important it should be considered an issue whenever Plaid or its supporters make a proposition, here with Betsan or at the Assembly. The Salad days for Plaid are well and truly over, the Genie is out of the bottle and the cork is not letting it back in.
The only anti-Welsh on board this particular ship of state is Plaid because they continually attempt to suppress any opposition.
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In reply to #57
The right wing of the 1930's were in Germany, are you suggesting the Unionists are akin to fascist Germans, are you thinking straight.
You think it bizarre that people who would be disenfranchised by Plaid intentions are opposing your minority will, Harry, it is only Plaid that is the issue, have you not noticed that people of quite the opposite political views oppose you, this is not extremism, it is fraternal.
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"The Salad days for Plaid are well and truly over, the Genie is out of the bottle and the cork is not letting it back in."
Sheer poetry, Stoney, sheer poetry! Salad, corks, bottles and genies. Sheer poetry! Surrealist poetry of course...
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I guess you haven't read Betsan at Parties and perils, good news comes in a rush, 9+ extra Conservative MPs to man the Welsh Office.
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61 - The right wing of the 1930's were in Germany, are you suggesting the Unionists are akin to fascist Germans, are you thinking straight.
Firstly I did not say Unionists I said extremists – like you - on this board.
Secondly, please tell me were the British Union of Fascists German? Today’s BNP is clearly a political ancestor of the Nazi party and lets be honest if members of UKIP could get away with it they would be far more open in their hatreds and bigotry.
Sorry but the other paragraph of 61 I can't make head or tail of.
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"I am also rather surprised at your inaccuracy over this matter. You see Dave..EVERY Welsh speaker in Wales speaks English. Thus negating your supposed point that I was in some way inferring some kind of superiority for English speakers.....We are ALL English speakers aren't we Dave, ipso facto we are all equally intelligent and civilised."
Ah but Noah, Noah, you didn;t say that did you? You said that English speakers were 'more civilised' and that Welsh speakers 'sprayed spit on you whenever they spoke'. You've got a problem with Welsh speakers Noah, in that you like to make racist comments against Welsh-speakers.
Your attempts to wriggle out of it are laughable. I'm delighted you're back and digging your hole.
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"organised Plaid presence on this blog"?
Dream on! You seriously reckon that a serious, mature political party would waste time and hours trying to debate with a bunch of extremist cranks glued to their computer screens? I mean honestly Noah, you have delusions of grandeur, and delusions of relevance.
Even intelligent blog comments tend to be made by people with defined political views. Political parties use blogs as ways of debating, not ways of converting. I very much doubt Plaid or anyone else reads your comments, except for a laugh.
I only come here occasionally to help with psychology MA in the internet and anonymity.
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message 58...
There you go, you've stated your 'side'.
".....So no, sorry, I won;t play your 'only extremists allowed' game here. I remain pro-devolution and believe the Union is not sacrosanct and that it needs to be debated and probably recast if it is not to crumble......2
I did not ask for extremist views, although you have obvioulsy made it your stance. What I did say was, you cannot be a middle of the debate sort of person, you either go for the devo' and therefore implied nationalist separatist motion, or you oppose it and elect to stay where you are. Irrespective of YOUR waffle, you CANNOT have it both ways.
Re the small 'state'/camp query, I am afraid I have not the slightest idea of what you ask.
I was being rather humourous, taking that there has been a few comments across the many messages, that those who wish to have a nice little 'nation' of their own, where all speak Cymraeg, should take unto themselves a small portion of north west Wales, Ynys Mon would do nicely, and create that nation they so are enamoured of.
The reference to 'camp' was in answer to message 37, so unless you, in future, wish to become even more confused, I suggest you stick to answering messages that are relevant to what is under discussion, and refrain from mixing metaphors, by utilising words from different messages, no doubt deliberately, to cause friction, typical from a Plaid supporter who is following his party instructions to create mayhem on all blogs, where anti Plaid and nationalist rhetoric is demonstrated.
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#64
Your vitriol is acerbic indeed, to write .....
Firstly I did not say Unionists I said extremists – like you - on this board. .....
..... is provocative, offensive, abusive, and does offend.
If I have a sin, it is in opposing the separatists in Wales, there are no fascists on the Union side.
To clarify the second paragraph, poorly written, missing punctuation......
You think it bizarre, that people who would be disenfranchised by Plaid, are opposing your minority will. Harry, it is only Plaid that is the issue, have you not noticed that people of quite opposite political views oppose you, this is not extremism, it is a fraternal opposition.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/7354446.stm
It is, perhaps, a bit of a cliche to describe this rural county as more English than Welsh.
Nevertheless, according to the Labour Force Survey, only just over half of Monmouthshire's population consider themselves Welsh.
By the way, after the 2008 council election, Conservatives now have 29 councilors, Lab 5, a bit of a mishap for mighty Plaid, they lost one of their two councilors!!
Sorry separatists, your party is dying in front of your very eyes, no amount of empty vainglorious bluster is gonna change that delightful fact.
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Chekov wrote today in his blog a piece entitled .....
Uniquely, in Northern Ireland, it can be argued that devolution settlement strengthened unionism and the 'Fifth Nation'.
he included the following paragraph .....
There is no longer, it is true, a single set of rights or entitlements associated with British citizenship. Our quasi federal constitution has put an end to such an aspiration. It is, however, possible to identify core political rights and entitlements associated with common allegiance to the United Kingdom Parliament. For the health of that institution, and the benefit of its citizens, it is desirable to strengthen and extend that core. In so doing, we are underpinning the ‘Fifth Nation’ which [Richard] Rose propounds.
I recommend the article as food for thought, the link is " http://threethousandversts.blogspot.com/ "
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This is getting silly - Mapexx , steady on with the MAD CAPITALS, it's a sign of losing control. You continue to claim that only extreme views are allowed in your debates. I dispute that. As do , I 'd say, most people in Wales.
You are the one who talks of separate states on Ynys Mon, and you also fail to provide evidence. Please, I await it.
Don't try to stop me writing on this blog simply because I'm not, as you crazily put it, 'on one side or the other'. You poeople have already turned Betsan's blog into an extremist game reserve.
Jack - you said most Monmouthsire people wanted to be English. You then say 'just over half' consider thsmslves Welsh. Which is it, exactly? You say that Monmouthsire has 29 Tory councillors. Yes it does. And where exactly did you get the ide athat that made Monmouthshire English? (UNles syou;re saying that the tories are not a Welsh party, but that is surely shooting yourself in the foot).
Arguing with you guys is like shooting fish in a barrel.
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66. At 7:04pm on 16 Sep 2009, daverodway wrote:
Dream on! You seriously reckon that a serious, mature political party would waste time and hours trying to debate with a bunch of extremist cranks glued to their computer screens?
Well quite frankly No,Dave. But sure as hell a divisive,anti-Welsh,little bunch like Plaid Cymru would, (and does).
I notice you've been absent from here for quite a while. Since your return you seem to be always in a temper. You haven't perchance been back up to Camp Cymru X for some spine stiffening, indoctrination have you?
Dave, For goodness sake lighten up, life really is too short.
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69 - 29 Tory Councillors in Monmouthshire??? I assume you mean the small County Borough of Monmouthshire and you are disregarding the boroughs of Newport, Torfaen, Blaenasu Gwent and half of Caerffili......which make up the traditional county of Monmouthshire???
Do you want to calculate the overall figurse or shall I????
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Ok Guy's Daveroway is winding you up -
The technique is simple - aggression, accusation and insult.
He has no interest in Wales or sensible debate, the only objective is to get a response.
His intervention has diverted the thread from an interesting and potentially productive exchange of ideas.
I'm still hoping for sensible comments om post 32!
I hope he gets his MA (if in fact it is an MA he is working for) but as I said before "he needs to up his game" :)
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Jack - you said most Monmouthsire people wanted to be English.
71 C'mon, you know you're telling stupid little porkies, where did I say that? Before you bluster any further, prove it, it's easily done if you ain't telling crazy little fibs.
You say that Monmouthsire has 29 Tory councillors. Yes it does. And where exactly did you get the ide athat that made Monmouthshire English? (UNles syou;re saying that the tories
71,And where did I say, that because of the high Conservative vote Monmouthshire is not Welsh? Yet another little fib, the one truth that many ( not all ) Monmouthshire folk know, if they were born before 1972, they were without doubt officially English.
David Davies, thinks Monmouthshire is Welsh, a lot of folk do not. But Davies is a defender of the English speaking heritage of our county, and he's a proud Brit.
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PS In my message 69, the immediate paragraph under the BBC link, if you'd cared to read it, was obviously written by a BBC reporter.
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message 71...
Mad Capitals?
I use just one word, 'CANNOT', in caps, to emphasise my meaning, as I am clueless as to type in italics, and you go for the throat.
How about trying for something constructive. Oh! I forgot, that is not the Plaid way of approaching those that oppose.
Mad indeed, but is is called Daverodway, I am sorry to say.
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Arguing with you guys is like shooting fish in a barrel.
71,
My my, aren't you the clever one? Of course you're winning, and impaling English speaking Brits with your magic little harpoon gun. It must be fun flying through the brilliantly coloured Delta Quadrant on your magic swirling Ship? Pack in brightly coloured sweeties and purple pop!!
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Re 77
mapexx,
You are constantly accusing me and others of taking things you write out of context. There is a perfectly good reason why we are able to do so by the way.
However, if I quoted from your no. 77 like this:
"I use just one word, 'CANNOT', in caps, to emphasise my meaning, as I am clueless"
- you'd probably be right.
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# FiDafydd you wrote .....
"I use just one word, 'CANNOT', in caps, to emphasise my meaning, as I am clueless"
- you'd probably be right.
...... this cherry picking of a response by map and the subsequent comment is both insulting and demeaning, particularly when all map was saying is he doesn't know how to emphasise text as italics, as an example, in his comments.
map should be offered an apology FiDafydd.
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RE 78 Very interesting Jack, but you totally ignore us Monmouthshire Martians.Those of us who live in Monmouth but have always believed that it is part of the planet Mars.We have great difficulty accepting rule from Cardiff
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Re 80
Stonemason,
I really don't think mapexx is quite the sensitive soul you make him out to be. In fact he has made it quite clear, many times, that he regards me as the 'wimp'! And that's the point, if I were to get an apology from him for every insult he has chucked insults in my direction, we would be here a very long time.
And on none of those occassions of mapexx's insults and aggression do I remember you expressing outrage. Why so selective, Stonemason?
You'll excuse me, therefore, if I don't really believe you to be expressing genuine outrage at all. Any more than I expect you to answer my question.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
"typo's" - I just can't resist - the irony is overwhelming.
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message 84....
Do try harder to resist. Saves your PC,electricity, and typing finger, from delivering totally unnecessary messages.
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message 84 agian...
Having thought about what you are saying, I have to 'correct' you yet again
The full term would be 'typographical errors', as I am sure you realise, so by obviating the full number of letters after the y. I am quite correct in using the apostrophe.
As I would be in for example saying 'morrow, instead of tomorrow, or in any other word which is truncated, either pre or post a section of the word.
I suppose I could write typo...s but that would be extending the word unnecesarily, I may as well write it out in full.
But just for you Mr. Pedant...forget it.
You know exactly what I mean, and you are just nit picking because you have nothing of substance to contribute, you are not alone. I suppose it is my lot to suffer from a surfiet of Plaid placed nationalists.
Go pick your nose, or do something useful for a change. You will not be missed.
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#82 Why so selective, Stonemason? asked FiDafydd.
Why indeed, might it be that I am not selective, but respond to odd incidents, you cut short a sentence that map wrote to create an insult, for what end, did it bring anything to the debate.
On a different tack .....
...... do you have plans to join the 'Fifth Nation', as described by Chekov, any time soon ? His blog carries many interesting propositions, is it possible to migrate his statement by saying in Wales, it can be argued that the devolution settlement strengthened unionism and the 'Fifth Nation'.
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Re 86 ROFL !!!!
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Stonemason is a self confessed fan of small government - on here he has called for the closure of the National Botanic Garden, the cancellation of funding for the National Museum of Wales, For the banning of funding of sports and cultural centres by the Government, he has opposed what he calls funding of hobbies, which would presumably close most adult education classes. I think this puts him on the far right wing economically of the Tory Party, on his blog he suggests that central government be restricted to the role of defence and policing – by implication this would close the universities, schools and the NHS thus quite plausibly he could be described as an extremist.
Noah is here to throw some mud, again has admitted that on this blog his role is to stir up people, poke fun and generally not to be taken seriously. Deliberately provocative to cause people to post angry comments, thus safe to ignore everything he says, again this would suggest he is an extremist.
Mapexx wants not just to abolish the Assembly but also wants to roll back all devolution, wants to abolish the Welsh Office and thus completely merge Wales back into England - though to be fair to him he hasn't called for the Lloyd George devolved administrative bodies to be abolished - but its safe to say such views are very extreme and thus its fair to say that he is an extremist.
Jack_Wilkinson is a promoter of the idea that Monmouthshire is English, a view held by a vanishingly small number of people, thus is by definition extreme in his views.
What this blog is missing is the rational voice of unionism, where are the Labour/Conservative/Liberal Democrat posters? I am afraid that extremist unionists have made this place very unwelcoming to new posters.
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Lyn 89
Your comment;
wants to abolish the Welsh Office and thus completely merge Wales back into England - .........- but its safe to say such views are very extreme and thus its fair to say that he is an extremist.
Is rather subjective opinion don't you think Lyn; Given the mess the devolved Public Services (Health, Education et al) many think the proposal is eminently sensible.
Those considered extremists are supporting Independence, as Plaids own research shows.
Hope you enjoyed your Conference, gave the rest of us a bit of a giggle.
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We must not let Lyn_Thomas get away with such a libellous statement .....
For the record .....
I tend to support ......
...... maximum liberty in both personal and economic matters.
I would advocate a much smaller government; one that is limited to protecting individuals from coercion and violence.
I also tend to embrace individual responsibility, oppose government bureaucracy and taxes, promote private charity, tolerate diverse lifestyles, support the free market, and defend civil liberties.
There is no ...... "by implication", by implication is the methodology by which Plaid extremists attempt to discredit the opinions of others. We do not live in an oppressive regime, we live in a country where there is room for diversity and fraternity, attributes not normally found amongst "Separatists", currently there is no suppression of ideas. To suggest that I or any other person advocates the closing of universities, schools and the NHS without having written such intentions explicitly is disruptive, provocative, offensive, abusive, objectionable, and does offend.
Lest we not forget .....
Plaid Cymru advocate a new economic order, "decentralised socialism", a new economic order that would require a new country or a revolution for its application, the Plaid preference is for a new state, separation. Myself and 90% of the population West of Offa's Dyke oppose this vision of a future, if this opposition makes this place unwelcome to any readers or posters they have my sympathy, but there are other more gentile blogs available. Here I personally oppose separation and have no intention of stopping, it is a democratic right to oppose.
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Map - I'm getting bored of teaching you - but hell with plurals you don't get apostrophes - it is "typos" - but hell - write what you want - you are probably the most ignorant person in South Wales so keep your nonsense coming.
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Jack_Wilkinson is a promoter of the idea that Monmouthshire is English, a view held by a vanishingly small number of people, thus is by definition extreme in his views.
You're posting unsubstantiated tosh, I know my Newport, my English speaking once English Newport. The Irish-Welsh Celtic branch of 'Labour?' are heading for obliteration.
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Stonemason your extreme views on the role of government do mean the abolition of the NHS and an end state provision of education. If you don't actually want that, I suggest you alter your introduction to your blog and make that clear.
Jack - there is no evidence that more than a handful of people support your view that Gwent is English. If you have any other evidence - such as reliable opinion polling I would be glad to reverse my views, however you don't and the English Democrats that stood on such a program got a minute vote.
Mapexx, no one supports your call for the total abolution of devolution, including going back to before a time when the Welsh Office existed (presumably you would get rid of the Minister for Welsh Affairs too) - thus what ever the merits of your proposal are (and there are none) you are a lone voice, and by definition an extremist.
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message 94....
I am sorry to tell you, that beyond this blog, out there in the real world, I come into contact, on a daily basis, with people who hold identical, or at least similar views to myself, re the status of Wales.
They too wish to have the total reversal of all that has occurred in their name over the last fifty or sixty years,
And YES, I do wish to do away with the Secretary of State for Wales.
It is a fanciful post, unnecessary, certainly no more valid than the same for the North West or South East, or anywhere else for that matter.
Secretary of State for Merseyside, Yorkshire, The north West, or North East, all have a ring to them, but all equally as ridiculous as that for Wales.
I will allow one point, that being, don't let anyone try hauling down Draig Goch, or decrying the Welsh sports teams.
Apart from that, nationalism on the street, in political terms, is a fictional figment of your over indulgent imagination.
Thanks for the accolade, I am pleased to be that sort of extremist.
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#94
My views on the role of government are not extreme, simply put "less is more", John Stuart Mill is my mentor with Mahatma Gandhi my example of perseverance, and Noam Chomsky as moderator, to suggest I should list all the functions of government that I support is perverse.
Take the NHS as an example, my view is government should provide a framework within which the health service should function, a small regulatory organisation to report to government is all that Westminster needs to judge effectiveness and make recommendations, I do not believe Health should be devolved but that is another matter, Health is best left to the health professionals, the light hand of small c conservative government.
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Lyn #94
You've either lost the plot - or - more likely, are deliberately misrepresenting and making nonsense attacks because you have no valid argument or sensible proposals.
Max's point on the "abolition of devolution" is an increasing widely held view.
No more an extremist position, than proposing the separation of Wales from the UK as a viable option.
In fact considering the record of devolution over the last 10 years, Max's option is certainly worth exploring.
To suggest Stony's view that smaller, less intrusive, expensive Government, - means the abolition of the NHS and an end state provision of education is disingenuous nonsense.
Since Plaids Conference your posts have been full of childish accusations - a planned attack perhaps, - or just panic that Plaid's ideas are shown to be unworkable and have failed to win support.
Faced with more reasonable coherent proposals, you seem to have no argument except insults.
Post 2010 Wales will not be able to afford to maintain the current number of Public Service Jobs.
We cannot support the current benefit society.
Think about it!!
Over the last 10 years the Assembly has robbed Health, Education and infrastructure budgets, to fund itself, and a mass of idealistic projects.
The wonderful opportunity has been frittered away, the damage to Wales and the deep divisions created will take years to repair.
All in all the human and financial cost (much of which is yet to be paid)of devolution and WAG is out of all proportion to the returns.
Its no use asking for money from Europe, or to change the Barnett formula, the money isn't there.
Whether you like it or not, we cannot continue down this road, and the byway you offer, leads nowhere.
Small Government is the only way forward.
Somehow we have to get Wales working again and stop wasting money on illusions and unworkable dreams.
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Stonemason has claimed on his blog that the role of government should be restricted to defense and law and order... thus unless he changes that line in his blog opposes other expenditure. So it stands. He certainly above hasn't shown that he supports a state run NHS... perhaps he could expand his views, certainly the bald statement on his blog suggests he is against state education and a state owned NHS.
There is no evidence that there is a growth in demand for abolishing the National Assembly let alone getting rid of administrative devolution, ie the old Welsh Office, which is advocated by Mapex - happily admitted to that on here.
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#98 Lyn_Thomas
I refer you to my #96 above.
But more to the point, who are you to question my blog position, it is public, and it is in opposition to Plaid; I have no intention of editing my blog position one jot.
I'm off to Hampshire to plaster a wall today so no more responses, the taxpayers there are very interested in our NHS, myself I have been very grateful to it twice in my life, though I, and many others, are quite able to pay for prescriptions.
But Betsan's is not about me, it's about Wales, and once again you and yours are trying to shift it into the wasteland of nonsense, get back on thread.
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95
Sorry to be a nuisance, but in a previous blog, it was put that Welsh national sports teams should be merged with England's.
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message 100,...
I may well have put that concept forward, so what?
I am entitled to my own take on the matter of international sport.
As I also made very clear in previous messages, Wales, along with the other so called home 'nations' was acceptable, within the confines of the British Isles,simply because most of the now accepted 'international sports' were invented, and codified, here in the UK.
Added to which, it was effectively only interplay between these 'home nations' that was, in those far off days, possible, due to the difficulties of true international travel, even if only to France, our nearest neighbour.
The habit stuck, with the compliance of some international sporting organisations, BUT, and a very important BUT... not all accept Wales as a separate 'nation' in international sport. Nor is Wales treated separately by the IOC, as far as I am aware.
You people make great play on 'separated' regions of other continental countries, but I do not see much in the way of those regions meeting as 'nations', for sporting purposes, with other true nations,.... do you?
As I further stated, if these 'home nations' were to be demoted to 'home regions', and a GB team regime established, I would be quite happy to see and accept such a move.
Team BG does it for me, and it would clear away the old antagonising anomaly of Wales etc, being called a nation when it obviously is not so.
Even then, there is no reason at all why Wales et al, could not compete as a representative region, even up to playing other full international teams.
But that is me, and if you don't like it, then hard cheese!
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