Angels and pinheads
First there was this - the Presiding Officer suggesting back in 2000 that the Welsh-language version of the assembly's proceedings should be scrapped.
Back then the Chief Executive of the Welsh Language Board, John Walter Jones, was reported as having some sympathy with Dafydd Elis-Thomas. He accepted the argument that translating some documents into Welsh could be regarded as tokenism and that the money would be better spent on translating documents "that people actually read". Symbolism is ok unless it costs, seemed to be the message.
Not for him, then, the argument that if the National Assembly can be seen to take bilingualism or leave it, what sort of example does that set everyone else?
In 2009 the Assembly Commission, under the guidance of Dafydd Elis-Thomas, has indeed decided not to translate English speeches made in plenary into Welsh in future.
And this time the Chief Executive of the Welsh Language Board seems to have taken an entirely different view.
Meirion Prys Jones has written to the Assembly Commission to raise the possibility of an investigation into the decision. He's not alone in suggesting that, given it seems to go against its very own Welsh language scheme, the National Assembly is in danger of breaking the law here. The Welsh Language Board clearly think it's a possibility or they wouldn't be talking in terms of potentially embarrassing investigations.
Try and set to one side whether the decision is the right one or not. Isn't the uncomfortable truth for the Assembly's Commissioners that the words 'statutory' is usually pretty binding?
Getting out of that one turns out to the be job of Clare Clancy, the Assembly Comission's Chief Executive.
Binding, she says? Pah!
Ms Clancy has written a reply to Mr Jones of which Sir Humphrey would be proud. It denies the Welsh Language Board has any authority to undertake an investigation at all. Why? Because the language scheme (with she accepts is guilty of 'ambiguity') is the National Assembly for Wales's and not the Assembly Commission's and guess what, the Assembly, as opposed to the Assembly Commission, isn't subject to the Welsh Language Act.
Now the Commission's job is to make sure that services are provided for the Assembly. On this occasion wouldn't Assembly Members be forgiven for thinking its job seems to be have been making them believe they'd voted for a proper, water-tight Welsh language scheme when it's now argued, they haven't?
There is not much doubt, is there, that the will of the Assembly was to have a language scheme that was statutory, binding, that meant something in law? That is not, says Clare Clancy in her letter, what they've got.
If you look at that letter long and hard enough, you just might catch a glimpse of a host of angels dancing on a civil servant's pinhead.
If you listen hard enough I gather you'll hear a letter landing on the Assembly Commission's doorstep, one from the Culture Minister 'conveying concerns'. He's suggested that "individuals who would like to express their opinions about this decision can contact the Assembly Commission directly, or contact the Welsh Language Board, which is responsible for monitoring the Commission's Welsh language scheme."
Hang on. I thought the Commission didn't have a Welsh language scheme ...
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~18~RS~)
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Obviously not a great demand for the Welsh version.
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Betysan....
It seems there is God in Heaven after all. (atheists can be flippant)
If this is the way to conduct a government for Wales, then roll on the day we get a chnace to rollit back to where it came from, the funny farm minds of the Plaid manics.
I am ever so pleased this came up, maybe we can now build on it, with the target being to take the whole sorry mess down and out of our lives for good.
After all, who would want to be ruled by a bunch of non compliants such as we have in the Bay at present?
Can't even get their own business sorted, but insist on sorting ours out.
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2
Who is Betysan?
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2
Bety-san presumably refers to the Chinese familiar greeting to Iain Duncan-Smith's wife.
I'm still not sure what post number 2 has to do with Wales or Welsh politics.
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Surely the point of translating any documents is to make it available to the widest number of people - and to people who don't speak the national language?
When EVERYONE is Wales who speaks Welsh, also speaks English the notion of translating documents seems to be thoroughly redundant.
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I said I wouldn't come back but never say never.
I have learned Welsh to a standard that I am able to to converse with people. I have always been a fervent supporter of the language and always will be.
But, on the issue of translating all documents into Welsh perhapes the Presiding Officer and Ms Clancy are right. What is the point, it can not be afforded in the present financial climate. Any way, how many people read them, how many people read the Welsh versions of any literature sent to our homes, very few in my experience.
As I have stated I have learned Welsh to a decent standard to converse with people and I am always looking for the oppotunity to speak with people in the language.
Not so them, On our journeys throughout Wales and in our own area I have to ask people if they speak Welsh before they converse in it. Even then they seem self-conscious and reluctant about it. In shops there are assistants who speak Welsh, but, again unless you ask you have no idea that they do.
The Eisteddfod, the bastion of the Welsh language, where you have those people for that week reveling in their self righteousness and self importance. Then those who would normaly speak English to me suddenly speak only in Welsh for that week then return to English after it is over, why.
The majority of young people who have gone through the bi-lingual schooling system, once outside the school gates speak only English and once they have left education, forget it all together or use it so infrequently they are not able to converse confidently.
Why should there be translation services payed for out of the public purse for people who only pay lip service to their own language on a daily basis and are not prepared to use those services provided.
Those who advocate to keep the translation services are the ones least likely to put themselves out in keeping the language alive in the communities unless it is within their own little enclaves.
I am not saying all Welsh speaking people are like this because they are not. There are many who do put themselves out for those of us prepared to learn and respect the language of heaven.
The majority of Welsh speakers sadly couldn't care less.
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Thank the Lord for the seemingly first crack in the welsh language "gang" who have feathered their nest at the expense of english only speakers who quite frankly could'nt give a stuff about Cymreig or what ever its called in "polite" circles. This might be the start of internal revolution regarding language and if the High and Mighty down bay dont need to translate english documents into welsh as EVERYBODY can read english then why have any translations into welsh at all. Alf 6 Eisteddfod seems to sum it up as I've stated before it has the look and feel of self congratulation paid for by other people. Why cant we have english Language Jamboree with no welsh any where!!. What a joy that would be.
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The largest growth industry in Wales during the past few years - Welsh language translation service
Just remember every £90 per 1000 words translation costs could be sent on front line and much needed services.
Lets start a campaign by asking local nationalist councillors to make sure that all communications to the electorate is written bilingually.
I think you will find when the cost is met by the individual you will rarely see a newsletter, leaflet or letter bilingually produced yet not surprisingly the same people make sure communication to the public paid for by the tax payer is always bilingual.
Great standards these people set.
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Re 7
Well if that doesn't prove that people who contribute to this blog hate the the Welsh language, nothing will.
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7
You have already got them throught Wales, if you care to look.
http://www.usa.visitwales.com/server.php?show=nav.8987
Most of these events are run by people who come from accross the border to live in Wales, because even the indigenous English speakers in Wales couldn't care less, and I am not refering here to the Welsh language.
Because of that appathy, thats why, wherever you go in Wales all the Service and Tourist Industry Businesses are run by people from England.
Try it out one day go around anywhere in Wales and see if there is a Welsh accent running any of these businesses
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7
I think UKIP and the BNP provide many of these events.
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Re 7 "Everyone can read english"
Judging by your efforts,it seems that not everyone can write it.
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9. I respect people who wish to speak welsh and good luck to them but I dont wish to pay for other peoples demands for welsh to be translated for their convenience,when in reality they can read the document in english. As No.6 stated if people wish for this service they should pay for it out of their own resources,not mine!!.No.11 I am proud to have voted UKIP to provide shot across bows of politicians who want further integration with "europe",and so do about 15-20% of UK voting public. We should trade with our european neighbours but return all policy matters to westminster rather than having those germans/french sticking their noses where it wanted or needed. I know "europe" is beloved by NATS and thats another reason to give them a kicking when we can. I'd like to see the sort of Inner City problems being transferred to west wales and reaction of locals who are not particularly welcoming to outsiders. In a democracy people can vote for whom they wish,including the BNP.12. Sorry for errors but you get the drift!!!.The wheels turning and when we see the level of public sector cuts coming to UK as whole,which will be more severe in wales because we are now a "mendicant" society the translation of english into welsh will come more under scrutiny/criticism by english only speakers.
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Re 13
"I respect people who wish to speak welsh and good luck to them but I dont wish to pay for other peoples demands for welsh to be translated for their convenience"
But you expect us to pay for yours?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Re 15 & 16
I do hope you haven't been reported to the mods. for writing in Martian. Seeing what you were responding to, it seems that writing nonsense breaks no rules.
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15 & 16
Aparrently I am not allowed to allude to possible lapses by UKIP MEPs. These are from the BBC's web site, so I hope they pass.
From the BBC, 27th April 2009:
Mr Wise, a former Ukip MEP, is accused of claiming at least £36,000 in secretarial allowances in the 12 months until December 2005 under the guise of a salary for Ms Jenkins.
From the BBC, 4th September 2007:
An MEP for South East England has been jailed for nine months for falsely claiming benefits of more than £65,000.
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17 & 19
Yep. writing in Martian breaks House Rules.
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I've said it before, and I'll say it again. It really is appalling that comments are rejected because they contain an occasional Welsh word, where the translation has even been provided by the commentator. There are online dictionaries available to verify the translation. I've had messages rejected because they contained Welsh placenames - the Welsh for Varteg - (for the Mods - its a PLACE in Gwent) was rejected last week!
Complaints made to the BBC about it are totally ignored. Wales is treated by the Corporation as if it were a region of England. It has to stop.
The owner of this Blog has a responsibility to raise the issue with her overpaid masters in London who control everything which happens within this pseudo-governmental organisation in order to get a meaningful policy which respects bilingualism in Wales. We pay our licence fees in Wales too, and they are far too high a tax to support a politically biased organisation which is over-dominant in the media.
So Ms Powys, with respect, please sort it out, and tell us what we can or can't publish here.
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There are at least three issues here;
1/ In 2009 the Assembly Commission, under the guidance of Dafydd Elis-Thomas, has indeed decided not to translate English speeches made in plenary into Welsh in future.
There seems to be a recognision that duplicating paperwork - together with the translation cost is only necessary when there is need.
After all everyone in Wales can understand the English version, and I'm sure if a request was made a Welsh version would be provided.
The other point Betsan does not mention, is that the Welsh speeches will have to be translated into English, otherwise 80% of the population will be denied access to what our AM's have to say.
2/ We have County and Community Councils who have had to sign up to Welsh Language Schemes that demand unnecessary duplication - such as Bi lingual notices in English Language newspapers.
This costs the Ratepayer, in these economic times surely there is a better use for our money.
If the Assembly can rationalise things why not our local Councils.
3/ We currently have a Language LCO struggling through the system.
This will simply put the same sort of problems we have in our public sector on the Private sector.
But the Private sector cannot levy its customers outside Wales to pay their share of the costs. (market forces mean it would be uncompetitive to do so) - So either prices for Welsh customers go up disproportionally or the company ceases trading in Wales at least.
Apparently back in 2000 Dafydd Elis-Thomas. accepted the argument that translating some documents into Welsh could be regarded as tokenism and that the money would be better spent on translating documents "that people actually read".
Sensible comment!!!
but
Now in 2009 Meirion Prys Jones the Chief Executive of the Welsh Language Board has written to the Assembly Commission to raise the possibility of an investigation into the decision. He's not alone in suggesting that, given it seems to go against its very own Welsh language scheme, the National Assembly is in danger of breaking the law here.
Obviously there is much going on - after all "tokenism" is important.
But we cannot have one law for our leaders and another for the rest of us.
Time to get a committee of sensible, feet on the ground individuals, to go through the whole sorry mess of the Language legislation,and re write it in a way that will protect the language. Not impose burdens on our Public or Private bodies - not criminalise those who fall short - and not smother the vast number of non Welsh speaking cultures here in Wales.
There is no doubt that a lot of our problems stem from the WLB vision of how the Welsh Language, and their vision of Welsh culture, should be imposed.
New more realistic legislation is needed. However, changing the remit of the WLB, (exclude enforcement of Welsh Culture among other things) together with removing the more wild eyed activists from the executive would be a major step forward.
But disbanding it altogether is probably best.
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