And finally ...
And finally ... the motion which is being tabled on behalf of Alun Davies, Rhodri Glyn Thomas, Paul Davies and Jenny Randerson and which must surely bring to a halt plans to no longer translate contributions made in English into Welsh for the official record.
Here it is in full:
Equality within the National Assembly for Wales
This is a motion tabled under Section 27 clause 6 of the Government of Wales Act 2006.
The National Assembly notes the decision of the Assembly Commission to cease the direct translation of Welsh to English within the record of proceedings.
The National Assembly further notes that this decision was taken without any consultation with Members and that Members were not notified that the decision was to be taken.
The National Assembly for Wales believes that a commitment to equality is a founding principle of the institution.
The National Assembly for Wales is disappointed by this decision of the Commission and instructs the Commission to ensure that the Assembly's commitment to equality is reflected throughout the work and the decisions of the Commission.
The National Assembly for Wales reaffirms its commitment to both of Wales' national languages, the creation of a bilingual Wales, and instructs the Commission to treat both languages on the basis of equality.
The National Assembly also affirms the right of Members to be informed of the work of the Commission and to be consulted on any major decisions.
The suggestion? That unless the Commission and the Presiding Officer fall into line and scrap their plan, then the matter becomes one of confidence.
Watch this space.
UPDATE: As one of this blog's readers has noticed - a reader that as far as I can tell from his comments manages generally to keep a clear head - the motion should read "translation of English to Welsh" not vice versa. Clear head = good thing.
UPDATE: Sir Humphrey is not a happy bunny and into the space we're all watching lobs this sentiment: "Nothing has changed".
It's certainly true, as Sir Humphrey's friends point out, that the motion doesn't compel the Commission to back down. My suggestion yesterday was that it didn't do that precisely because it gave the Presiding Officer a way out. Any stronger and the matter would become one of confidence.
There's unhappiness too that the motion claims "members were not notified that the decision was to be taken" when the papers for the Commission meeting on June 1st were made available online on June 22nd. All Assembly Members were sent an Email drawing their attention to them.
Fair enough. What should they have spotted? If they'd worked their way through the paragraphs on strategy, the figures and the percentages, they would have come to this:
3.11 Areas of spend that could be reviewed include:
Service levels - in areas we may need to consider the balance between demands and affordability (for example the current requiment for a fully bilingual record of plenary meetings".
So yes, it was there - page three, in brackets but there.
So what next?
No sign of the Commission backing down, though doesn't Sir Humphrey always find a third way? One that allows for a 'review' that would take a look, not just at direct translation of proceedings but at how the Welsh language is used in committees and on a day to day basis in the Assembly: one that would create a way out of a tight corner.
One of the four Commissioners, Labour's Lorraine Barrett, has no intention of trying to get out of the corner at all.
The decision, she says, is the right one. Money has got to be saved and time would be far better spent not getting "het up" about this decision and rather concentrating on the "exciting plans" the Presiding Officer has in place to enhance the use of Welsh in the Assembly more generally.
It's significant, she suggests, that there is no translation at all in Scotland and Ireland and adds too that as far as she can recollect, the decision wasn not controversial when it was discussed with her fellow Commissioners. Were objections raised, as we're now told by Plaid's Chris Franks and by Nick Bourne?
That is not her recollection.
"This is a draft budget, so obviously people will have their views, but I think it's the right decision".
This space is starting to get rather more crowded.
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~15~RS~)
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Third Assembly Commissioners; Dafydd Elis Thomas Plaid Cymru, William Graham Conservative Party, Lorraine Barrett Labour, Peter Black Liberal Democrats, Chris Franks Plaid Cymru.
I make it one of each plus Dafyddd making it two for Plaid, between them they have caused Welsh War I, do they have the brains they were born with I wonder, the logic is simple ......
...... there are probably several Welsh speakers sitting in the Assembly, this group does everything using the Welsh language, so if Dafydd wishes to read the Faerie Kings English speeches to the Assembly for 2008 he needs a translation.
Yet Dafydd presided over a commission that decided not to translate the documents for him, ostensibly to save a ducat or two; or is Dafydd and chums a tad more devious .............
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The PO made a slip and let's hope he appreciates this in good heart. It will doubtless be corrected and we all move on.
I trust he will appreciate what a multi faceted hornet's nest this is and will stick to a suitably bi-lingual policy both in theory and practice.
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This is excellent stuff.
The motion tabled by those four dreamers if passed, will only serve to ratchet up the hatred of this assembly by the huge majority of us Welsh, who just happen to be English only speakers.
These four 'protectors of the language' will no doubt be worshipped by the Taffia in their Pontcanna pub this evening. What the rest of us with more realistic priorities are thinking sadly cannot be voiced on here for fear of frightening any nervous virgins who may have stumbled upon this blog.
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Betsan....
In my life of atheism, I tend to live entirely sans religion.
It has absolutely no place in my life, that is until someone commences with the promotion of it in my presence; which of course includes blogging, where it is often introduced by someone with a chapel mentality.
Now to the matter at the top of this page.
I am exactly the same about the Cymraeg language.
Until it becomes a matter of waste, when I receive literature and documentation in that language, then it becomes a matter of nuisance and annoyance.
I pay my taxes for the purpose of maintaining my British lifestyle, not to have clusters of self serving political idiots, wasting my taxes on matters that are best left to the people who seem to want to maintain, or sustain, the language.
The purpose of any gathering for the governance of a region is to provide, from the funds made available to it, the means of creating welfare for the whole, and considering that at least 8 tenths of the population have no use for the language, I suggest that 8 tenths have the right to designate the destination of the taxes they pay.
OK!, so a few who speak the language also pay tax, the the rest do not do so to maintain and promote or expand the language they speak, for the simple reason that language is their normal birth language, and they therefore have the right of majority to expect their language is used by the regional government. Be it in Cardiff Bay or elsewhere.
I suggest that if any tax at all be used to further the Cymraeg, then it should be on a pro rata basis, a measured amount to be put into the money box labelled Cymraeg.
If 8 tenths do not use the language, then a calculation be made of the amount totally spent on English, then tax to the equivalent of 2 tenths of that amount be allocated to the Cymraeg. IN TOTAL, and not a penny more.
In the meanwhile, I also suggest the Assembly/WAG does what it is paid to do, and that does NOT include promoting Cymraeg ahead of English, which of course will be denied... but... just how much IS being spent in promoting English???
A damned sight less than is being spent on Cymraeg, that is for sure.
Keeping to the tenths fractions, I would hazard a guess and say ...
.......NO tenths on English whatsoever.
Beyond what is similarly spent. 'pro rata' in schools in England, as well as Wales, or to put it another way, as part of the educational curriculum in all schools.
In the public domain, it needs nothing spent on it, it looks after itself, which is exactly what Cymraeg should be doing, beyond the school environment.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Betsan, many of us are looking to you to be true to your word.
Go for the man and you are off ........... Well if Alf hasn't gone for the man my name is Arsene Wenger.
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As soon as I come back you are trying to get rid of me again are you, what a sad and vindictive little gnat you are.
Sorry Betsan, took my eyes off the ball.
What a dangerously bizarre post, does this poster, actually believe that he is in the employ of Betsan? Why is he apologizing to her? What sodding ball, is he taking his so self important 'eyes' off? Betsan, is he in your employ?
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Mapexx55 : re.5 -
British Council
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As ever, the devil is in the detail:
"The National Assembly for Wales reaffirms its commitment to both of Wales' national languages, the creation of a bilingual Wales, and instructs the Commission to treat both languages on the basis of equality."
"the creation of a bilingual Wales".
After eleven years or more, they still haven't achieved it, despite the many frantic and varied attempts to force Welsh upon us.
This Assembly is clearly rather slow on the uptake.
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4/5
For those of you other than mapexx55 who are confused over my comment. I was refering to mapexx55's bilious spat against my religious beliefs some time ago when I decided then to not participate on this blog anymore.
It seems for no apparent reason to the blogs contribution other than I decided to again participate, for himto bring into it the 'Chapel mentality', for which no one has mentioned or intimated on in this posting.
My 'eye of the ball' comment was in relation to Betsan's previouse post on going for the ball not the man.
As I said in that post I doubt whether any one will listen to you.
I was called meek when I decided to not participate again. Now I am dangerous and in Betsans employ. How confused the world can be when people have such narrow perspectives on life. They say people of religion are closed minded.
Hmm, think I may pursue my Christian thoughts on subjects more if I seem to be annoying others so much with them. If you can't beat them join them.
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Those of us who voted NO to the setting up of Assembly/WAG knew that devolution was'nt simply the improvement of public services,but rather the first step to "seperation" from UK and a North Korean approach to imposition of welsh language on us english only speakers. I cannot imagine that the Seperatist who is now Presiding Officer and his PC mate would have decided not to translate these documents,other than absolute need to reduce costs,so if the decision is countermanded where will the other cuts in expenditure take place. There can be no doubt that amongst the welsh speaking fraternity/seperatists/media personnel who enjoy fat salaries/benefits the current devolved body is a "wonderful" entity,however amongst the rest of us it leaves us cold. Where will a politician of rank come from (of any party) who will set up banner for the total re-casting of current arrangements. We are on slippery slope to the nirvana that the welsh language fanatics/fire bombers could only dream about in the 1960's. We now have the tail wagging the dog and the silent majority are being railroaded to a destination they dont wish to go. As i understand it language is a mere tool whereby people can communicate their wishes/opinions and as we can all speak english (which thankfully is now the main world language),then welsh should be left to its speakers and they should pay for its services,as I pay for world class tennis on SKY.
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Meanwhile the 78% of Welsh people who support devolution and believe in equal status for Welsh get on with their lives. The great thing about this blog is that the seven or so people who cannot abide with the Wales of today and tomorrow are locked to the screens, leaving the rest of us in peace.
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Meanwhile the 95% of the Welsh people who oppose separatism, support democracy and the "Rights of Man", and continue the process of challenging undemocratic governance that does not safeguard its people, their natural rights, and their national interests.
Insults do not work in this forum Returnee, neither does bullying, intimidation nor censorship, I am surprised you haven't noticed,
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12 Returnee. I have no idea where the 78% support for devolution comes from other than Mickey mouse polls conducted by people who wish to see the gravy train expanding. I can honestly state that nobody I know supports the current arrangement,but of course I dont mix with NATS or thewir fellow travellers in mejia. 14. where do you get this "hatred" bit??.The righting thinking people who were quite happy with arrtangement with representation in Parliament and were then dragooned by Blairs "fiddled" referendum whereby major changes made to constitution were supported by small % of population as whole of wales.I have been in terms of public sector etc etc virtually been disenfranchised because there will be seemingly no right wing government in wales that preaches "sound money" as did the blessed Margaret,rather than a Nationalist /Socialist clique,supported by local media. BBC Wales Your Nation/Your Station need I say more!!.
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TheStonemason
#13
Insults do not work in this forum Returnee, neither does bullying, intimidation nor censorship, I am surprised you haven't noticed,
Hmmm, Does that include mapexx55 and his views on religion.
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alf .....
Yes, it should, I sit firmly with Dawkins holding a Bible that I frequently use, inconsistent, not at all, because each brings something to the party. Dawkins brings the wonder of evolution and the Bible brings ethics and morality.
This particular blog is political in nature, so the application of ethics and morality should play an important part during discussions, it rarely does.
FiDafydd wrote at #14, of myself and others, including mapexx / mapex55 ...... this rabid bunch of British nationalists.
It seems the moderators regard such a comment as an acceptable insult, so where do the Biblical ethics kick in ? Did you consider such a statement to be unethical, did you consider making a complaint about this disgusting insult.
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ThStonemason
#17
As Dawkins says on the buses 'There Probably is no God'I emphasise the probably, not difinately has he some doubts or hedging his bets
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Re 17
Not an insult, a description. A description based on what a small bunch write on this blog, day in day out ...
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alf ....
It's probably a good thing that people can read the good things no-matter what the cover.
.... john
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15. While I agree that there are not enough regular opinion polls held in Wales, given the choice between the findings of two independent opinion polls or the preconceived and bigoted opinions of a few old-soaks, I know which ones I would put my money on.
Of course there are different opinions in Wales, from North to South, and from East to West, and particularly from young to old, and the opinion polls reflect this divergence. The simple demonstrable fact is that support for devolution has grown consistently since the establishment of the Assembly, and those opposed to it are becoming an ever-shrinking and increasingly irrelevant minority.
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#19
You will forgive me for declining further discourse.
You seem to be able to ignore with impunity Betsan, she wrote .... Go for the ball - then you can go in as hard as you like. Go for the man and you're off.
It seems you have immunity from complaint.
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Amazing though it seems, it looks as though the Tories led by 'Call me Dave' on his white charger, will save Wales from poverty and nationalist division.
This is undoubtedly why the nationalist activists down in their Pontcanna watering holes are hurridly putting their Cathedral Road area properties up for sale. I drove down there yesterday and the number of FOR SALE boards was amazing. Could this be a foretaste of things to come? Have the activists seen the writing on the wall? Is there to be a mass exodus back to the safety of Gogland? Will certain public houses go under the hammer?Will our children be freed from compulsory Welsh in the classroom?
Are the days of devolution.....the dreams of enforced Welsh language usage.....the mandatory attendance at Eisteddfodau, all now to wither on the vine?
Oh dear.......
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message 8....
Sorry pal, you have me beat with that.
What should I respond with...Dulux?, Timote shampoo?, Heinz Beans?, The Mongolian Embassy?
Whatever I say, or have said, where does the British Council come into the equation?
Or am I supposed to be a mind reader.
I am a genius, that goes without saying, but I cannot do the ESP bit, would that I could.
I would be able to clear this blog of quite a few who currently frequent it.
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Re 22
May I thank you for your unstinting support every time mapexx has insulted me, shouted at me, called me names ... As well as the times he has insulted Muslims, women, gays... Need I go on?
I attack the ideas - here, it is British nationalism. And - yes - the toffocracy, which you seem to support, but I see as vile
I expect you in turn to attack Welsh nationalism. It would be nice, now and again, however, if you could do it with a bit more substance.
But, of course, you have now decided not to respond!!
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Re 23
Did you enjoy the Eisteddfod then Noa...?
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27 Noooooooo........ We dont want to hear about your experiences with homosexuals - this is a public site.
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15
14-15% of Welsh people support independence, not 5%. Facts, old boy. I am simply pro federal, which puts me in a massive majority.
So, onwards and upwards with the 78% and rising.
Still I am pleased to see my rematrks got the Welsh haters looking at themselves.
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message 28....
It does not do to take the wrong end of the stick.
But to clarify...
In working for a number of years in the entertainment field, movies making, exhibitions, theatre set construction, I came across a fair number who were engaged in such activities, more than enough to convince me that their proclivities were NOT based on gender misalignment.
Much more to do with, for want of a better expression, 'swimming against the flow'.
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Mqp, I dont agree with your political views, but I recognise and respect your right to hold them.
Similarly I dont agree with homosexuals, or religious fanatics of any persuasion, but unlike you I recognise and respect their rights to practice as they see fit.
I suggest your blood pressure might be a bit lower if you started being a bit more tolerant - noone is asking you to join in....are they??
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#29
Lets try not inflating the figures, BBC GfKNOP/IWP telephone poll June-July '08
For independence: 10%
.......... this would equate to Plaid and chums, ...... old girl.
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message 31...
Allowing the moderators saw fit to not to let my last message go through, I will respond by saying this....
I do not tolerate anyuthing that is either based on fantasy, or that goes against the very nature of how the animal world (I include we human beings in that) is intended to operate.
For far too long, science, and knowledge derived therefrom, has be warped and twisted by religion, and nature has been likewise warped and twisted by individuals in the face of the requirements, and demands of our very nature.
The latter has been tempered for almost all of the history of mankind, for very sound reasons, but over the last few decades, 'tolerance' has allowed it to spread like marmalade on our breakfast toast.
I am not that tolerant. I prefer to stick with the rules of good ol' mother nature.
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re 34
Is homosexuality really spreading lke marmalade on toast?
It's interesting to note that several animal species exhibit homosexual behaviour. Bonobo chimps spring to mind. It seems to enhance social cohesion. So, if you really want to "stick with the rules of good ol' mother nature" as you put it, then you may have to become a little bit more tolerant of others.
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32
Or twice the figure the unionists have been quoting...for starters. Forget not that the BBC's poll this February had it at 14%. So, all these are well above the 5% oft quoted here.
You could argue that the 10% to 14% represents a 40% surge in support for independence, but I suspect it reflects the underlying 14-16% level of support seen in recent years.
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message 35,....
That is a old boner, about animals engaging in such practices.
Maybe some do, but it has been shown that whenever such behaviour is observed it is due to one, or more reasons, invariably to do with frustration because of the prime order rule, in that is meant, the biggest and most aggressive get the pick of the bunch of females, which leads to a 'harem' under that one dominant male, and leaves the rest of the males out to pasture.
Sexual imperatives and the resultant frustration for being unable to engage with their immediate female members of their pride, group, tribe or clan, can lead to, what can only be seen by ill informed humans as homosexaul behaviour, when in truth it is nothing of the sort.
This does not apply to the human race, especially in countries where monogamy is the rule under law.
There is a exceptionally small number who gender is questionable for pschological reasons, but that is certainly NOT the case in the vast majority of circumstances.
As for my comment re the spread... one only has to look at demographiocal data pre the Act that opened the floodgates to such practices, compared to subsequently.
Not only that, the liberalisation such legal maneouvers gave rise to, effectively, and openly, allowed such behaviour to be encouraged.
As I said, I am highly intolerant to both fantasy being presented as fact, and deviant unnatural behaviour in humans, being presented as though normal.
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Mapexx
Seems you need to check a little Celtic social history;
Check out Wikipedia on the Celts;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts
Diodorus Siculus in the 1st century BC, wrote that Celtic women were beautiful but that the men preferred to sleep together and "the young men will offer themselves to strangers and are insulted if the offer is refused"
Interestingly:
Posidonius and Strabo described an island of women where men could not venture to for fear of death and the women ripped each other apart. Other writers, such as Ammianus Marcellinus and Tacitus, mentioned Celtic women inciting, participating, and leading battles.
Poseidonius' anthropological comments on the Celts had common themes, primarily primitivism, extreme ferocity, cruel sacrificial practices, and the strength and courage of their women.
And they hadn't even met my Mother in Law.
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message 38.....
I have no doubt such goings on did take place, but lets be very honest about it, Mr. D S was writing from the side that wished to create 'black-sheep', just as Hitler did with the Jews.
As for the Island of Women mentioned by P and S, not exactly the same as the liberal California, and all other spots around the globe of today.
So much gender bending it would become difficult to separate the gals from the guys.
Maybe there were a a few hundred rather sad women, (are you sure he did not mean a 'pride of lions', without a male to keep them in check?)if that number even, compared to a number, almost beyond count, when the world numbers involved today, are calculated.
The final paragraph, tells far more about the so called ancestors of today.
What did Gibbons say about Rome in his Decline and Fall? More or less what I am saying about the smutty aspects of our modern civilisation.
Who will write the 'Decline and Fall' of the west, in years to come.
Will that worthy happen on the same declivity as did Gibbons, I wonder?
Or will it be a matter of some religous chronicler, reflecting through his, potentially, Islamic eyes how Islam, or whichever sect it will be, finally conquered, the west, much in the same vein as Attilla with his pachydermic army?
Simply speaking not because he was more powerful, elephants notwithstanding, but because Rome had slurped itself into a coma of such gigantic proportions, it could no longer rise to the challenges set to it.
I would have thought there were anti-, this, that, and the other, in similarity to myself and others who stand against this tide of unnacceptable behaviour, and fantastic untruth, back in the days of Rome, but a religion took them down with cries of 'heresy' and crimes against the church etc, much as is likely to occur, should any other cult/sect/creed, arise to take the place of collapsing Christianity.
Unfortunatley 'mum in law' is only a passing entity, whose replacement may well be a total Worm, rather than an aggressive Wasp.
Maybe we should have a school of training for women/ M in L's with the propensity to become the type you lay claim to for yours.
A new Welsh battalion of female 'stallions'.
Chance would be a fine thing, the Assembly would stifle it at birth, with all the petty rules and regs everything is nowadys subjected to.
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Map
MinL comment of course a joke - mine was actually pretty good.
Thought if the Gals were as bad as Poseidonius reported, probably explained why the Guys stuck together (ouch!)
Who will write the 'Decline and Fall' of the west, in years to come.
Many years to come I'm afraid, globally we seem to be heading for an age of darkness.
Defence of the Realm seems to be getting a bad name, society takes from those who work to give to those who don't, discipline and honour are dirty words.
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# 40.....
Age of Darkness....
....Which is, Westy, more or less the reason for the Decline and Fall of that great Empire of yore.
Mind you, where Rome had a massive slave population, which no doubt aided the 'fall', our equivalent is the burdensome weight around the shoulders of the taxpaying workforce, and means of production, the unemployed, the unemployable, the sick, and whoever else.
I of course, am included, being a state pensioner.
However, I shall not be around to see the extremely rapid onset of what you term the 'age of darkness', that, I am sorry to say is the inheritance I, and my generation, will leave for our children, and children's children, to pick up the tab for.
Believe me, it will not come a creepin', it may start slow, but when the crap really hits the social and demographic fan, it will accelerate exponentially, and you know what that means I am sure.
Glad you were joshin' about you M in L. Mine too was a good one, both in fact, considering I did the marriage thing twice.
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I cannot believe what I've read in the last few comments.
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message 42....
Oh! go back to sleep!
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#38 West-Wales it seems that our Celtic beginnings were in fact not Celtic, we have been living a cultural fantasy since the 18th century.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/british_prehistory/peoples_03.shtml
It seems we are all British with a sprinkling of others.
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Stony @44
Oh dear - Reality proof the British are all brothers - and posted on the day of the Tribal Conference - we can expect some comments :)
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44 & 45.....
Isn't it strange, whenever factual solidity is demonstrated,how quiet the blog seems to go!
Where are all the 'Celtic boffins' that pop up, now and again, with their erudition on the subject of ethnicity and language, etc?
Tell them the sky is blue, and back they come with 'yes, because we Celts made is so over 500 years ago,' but tell them it has always been blue, and watch out for the claims their ancient ancestors were responsible for it anyway.
But prove to them it is only blue because of the refraction of light and really it is the blackest of black, and they go serenely silent.
It seems from the links you gave, that it is all a figment of imagination anyway, just as I have been saying for months on this blog, but it needed that link to put it into perspective.
Well done Stoney! On the ball, as usual.
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The "Celtic" question was discussed and satisfactorily resolved about two weeks ago on another of Betsan's blog posts. That's probably why nobody can be bothered to go over it again.
When the ignorant start braying like smart alecs, the only sensible response is smile politely, and walk away. Adieu.
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#47
The question as to whether a question is satisfactorily resolved might change as new information comes to light, as it has here.
If you wish to "insult", by referring to contributors as "ignorant" for example, find another place where such behaviour is acceptable.
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sanddunesurfer #47
The discussion of the Celtic question on the post you refer too, was perfunctory and can hardly be described as being discussed and satisfactorily resolved
Its a complex and interesting subject which some of us (on both sides)enjoy debating!
As a new kid on the block, suggest you scroll back, you'll find there is much useful information on the early history of the UK and its people, posted on this blog.
Not all of it full peer reviewed material - some has been useful in opening up new avenues of research, especially for amateurs with a genuine interest.
There is little agreement, various fractions here have an emotional, in some cases political, interest in rewriting or selectively revising the science and historical record.
But this much is clear and scientifically validated;
The vast majority of the inhabitants of the British Isles, whether they consider themselves to be "Anglo Saxon", "Celt" or otherwise, are descended from the original Mesolithic hunter-gatherers who migrated north from Iberia approximately 13,000 years ago at the end of the last ice age.
Genetic studies have supported the prevalence of native populations, ruling out any post-Bronze Age cultural and language intrusion.
A study by Christian Capelli, David Goldstein and others at University College, London showed that genetic markers are similar to the genetic markers of the Basque people, who speak a non-Indo-European language.
This similarity supported earlier findings in suggesting a large pre-Celtic genetic ancestry, likely going back to the Paleolithic.
They suggest that Celtic culture and the Celtic language may have been imported to Britain by cultural contact, not mass invasions around 600 BC.
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46
But whenever facts go against you, such as the fact that all opinion polls show an increasingly massive majority in favour of devolution, they are ignored or disputed.
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#44 But don't you realise that what you have posted is not new information at all? It is a generic sub-secondary information source from 1998.
Stonemason, you write, "If you wish to "insult", by referring to contributors as "ignorant" for example, find another place where such behaviour is acceptable."
I'll do as I please, thanks. As do you. I don't wish to insult. I just call it as I see it.
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#51
Your ...... I just call it as I see it. ......... is a juvenile excuse for insults. Pathetic in the extreme.
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#49 Thanks for reverting to your sensible and engaging style. You can sometimes be an interesting contributor, and worth reading. Sometimes a fruitcake.
Anyway, a recent theory suggests that the Belgae (supposedly the last of the Celtic tribes to migrate to Britain - from modern Belgium apparently) may in fact have been speakers of a Germanic language. This would apparently explain the rarity of Celtic placenames in the south-east of England, compared to the rest of the country, which has many Celtic place names. This would mean that there were pre-Roman Germans in Britain, so that Anglish in these isles might be able to claim a pre-Roman heritage. Tenuous! But an interesting theory nonetheless. Oppenheimer suggests this, as I recall.
In my opinion, most of the population (but especially in the western parts)can be considered aboriginal - and they have spoken many languages: native (related to non-indo basque?), pictish, brythonic, godeilic, latin, welsh, irish, cornish, norse, french, romany, english...
And hopefully many, many more languages will continue to be spoken here. When languages die, a part of humanity dies. We need more linguistic diversity - not less.
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#52 But don't you realise that what you have posted is not new information at all? It is a generic sub-secondary information source from 1998.
Loser.
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And PS, hey man I am a juvenile. What you expect from the youth today? Coherent, articulate debate? C'mon!
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message 49.....
Extract...
"... A study by Christian Capelli, David Goldstein and others at University College, London showed that genetic markers are similar to the genetic markers of the Basque people, who speak a 'NON?-Indo-European' language....."
Sorry Westy, can't agree there.
ALL western languages, that are not pictographic (Chinese, Japanese, Arabic), fall into, and under, the title of Indo-European.
Indo-European itself falls into two branches, western (centum) and eastern (Satem) below which, branches move to the east, or west, according to population movements, and trends, over many centuries.
Basque(?) is one of the twigs on the main sub branch, Centum, through Celtic via Insular, through Cymbric, to modern Welsh, Cornish and Breton.
The other twig takes Celtic, though Insular, to Goidelic to Irish-Gaelic.
The second sub branch, via Celtic, resides in Continental, through to Gaulish, whereupon the branch ceases.
Eastern languages follow the Satem path, from Indo-European.
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ALL western languages, that are not pictographic (Chinese, Japanese, Arabic), fall into, and under, the title of Indo-European.
Not Basque I'm afraid Map -it's what they call a language isolate.
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An interesting test is to compare numbers (some of the earliet words invented would be names for 1 and 2)
The Proto Indo European root would be something like: "Hoino" and "Duoho"
Develops into numbers like:
One, two
Un, dau
Un, deux
Eins, zwei
Uno, dos
Odin, Dva
Etc etc for various Indo European languages.
As a comparison the Basque is:
Bat, Bi
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Message 57.....
Another F and V argument is this to be? To which I note I never received an apology for your stubbornness. (Pull! message 144...August 2009)
ALL, get it, ALL western languages are derived from the original Indo-European. There are only TWO paths to ALL languages...
1: Satem, to the east,
2: Centrum, to the west, (that is Europe, in case you misunderstand).
Basque though, it would appear, does not fall readily into either camp, but still, it does come out of the original Indo part of the I-E rootstock.
But I suppose you are more erudite than the Author of "The Miracle of Language", Mr. Charlton Laird, professor of English at Nevada University, unfortunately no longer with us.
He who only wrote some few dozen books on the various aspects of language, and it's derivation and evolution, as well as compiling Websters Thesaurus, and working on other linguistic tomes of world importance in the English Language.
I am sure all will bend to your superior knowledge, over that of Laird.
Move over Charlton old fruit, there's a new whizz kid on the block.
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Professor Laird is not part of the consensus. Try and do some research instead of deciding the answer on the word of one guy. There are quite a few linguistic experts in the world - many still with us. The overwhelming majority class Basque as having pre Indo European roots. From a simplistic view the number word examples I gave seem quite convincing don't they?
F and V? I repeat V sounds softer than F to me - which is all I claimed, and is a fact because it does sound softer to me.... and while we are at it Map you went all quiet on Confederation bv Federation....
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message 60...
To reprise, message 144 in Pull! came from the National Library of Wales. Case rested.
Same with Sofrydd, and now same with Basque.
The earliest references in regards the Indo European language tree cannot be established, although there are thoughts that another language known as early Dravidian had some say in the matter, beyond that I DID make comment that Basque possibly came from the INDO aspect did I not, but you seem to have either missed that or deliberately overlooked it.
I cannot understand where you are coming from on the matter of CON and FED, I explained it to you, and requested you prove to me I was wrong, not by your own words but by academic and factual references, you did not, I cannot keep on supplying you with factual proof if you will not accept it. Just as with the F and V matter.
Your loss I am afraid.
To stop any further embarrassment to you, with your perpetual incorrect arguments, I shall not respond further. Each time you have been wrong, you will not admit it, so there is no point in carrying on with such a futile discussion.
Please do not bother with any further responses.
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Lol Map - try and do some research.
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" To stop any further embarrassment to you, with your perpetual incorrect arguments, I shall not respond further"
Good.
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