Adam Rant
I've no idea whether either Nick Bourne or David Melding tune in to Conference Live. It's sunny out there, I know and politicians have lives and Sky +.
But if, by any chance, they were watching a moment ago, they'll just have heard Adam Price sending them both a message. To one, he showed the hand of political friendship. To the other, it was a fist.
To David Melding, it was this: "Join us, David the water's warm ... You're living proof that it is possible to be Welsh and a small 'c' conservative".
Be warned Mr Melding - I think that's what they call a back-handed compliment.
To Nick Bourne, it was anything but: "Who can forget Nicholas Bourne beaming before Carmarthenshire's votes were counted, thinking that Wales had collectively voted itself out of existence for the second time in our history ... No man who betrayed his country so enthusiastically could ever earn the right to lead it".
Perhaps it's just as well that Adam Price delivered his speech in English only, the only senior bilingual Plaid figure who seems to get away with that unscathed. 'Brad' in Welsh has connotations even stronger than 'betrayal'.
What was that about "the prevailing wisdom of a party that has always defined itself as being against the development of our Welsh Democracy" too? Was it an informed hint about the internal argument amongst Conservatives about whether to include in their manifesto a pledge not to block a referendum, or just a general bullet fired in their direction?
I'll bet you one thing: one or two of the messages fired at Welsh Labour MPs in his speech will be repeated in the bars of Llandudno many times tonight, perhaps the "matching silk ties, silk hankies and for I know silk underwear as well" proving the favourite.
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
© MMX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~22~RS~)
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Been worried about David Melding for some time - strange ideas.
Adam Price To David Melding, it was this: "Join us, David the water's warm ... You're living proof that it is possible to be Welsh and a small 'c' conservative".
Thats the kiss of death for Meldings career with the Tories.
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Betsan:
I'll bet you one thing: one or two of the messages fired at Welsh Labour MPs in his speech will be repeated in the bars of Llandudno many times tonight, perhaps the "matching silk ties, silk hankies and for I know silk underwear as well" proving the favourite.
Yes, you are very much correct that this message will be repeated many times....
=Dennis Junior=
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David Melding seems to have at least thought through constitutional issues, and has a coherent view on it. For what its worth I think the Tories in Wales have moved a long way, and Nick Bourne's leadership is to thank for that. Despite Stonemason's comments its clear that there will be no reduction in size in the parliament after next in the number of Welsh MPs, at least until the Referendum on legislative powers for the National Assembly is passed. Even then I think that given its size the decoupling of Westminster Constituencies will have to happen. Neither Labour nor the Tories have a coherent program of reform of the UK constitution. Neither will agree at this stage to fixed term parliaments or reform of the electoral system. Plaid is right to flag up these issues. Adam gave a good speach, though I missed the first half of it. He is a good speaker and has good organisational abilities. I would imagine within the next 10 years he could easily be leader of Plaid and quite possibly First Minister in a coalition goverenment in Wales (coalitions will be the norm here).
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The time-scale for constitutional reform is not a few months duration, and that is the only thing you have right at #3.
The reduction in the number of MPs throughout the UK needs to be the first step, following on from this it will be difficult in the extreme to justify the out of kilter number of AMs sauntering around Cardiff Bay, especially when consideration is given to the vast cost of the civil servants and quango hangers on.
There is an aspect of constitutional reform missing from Plaids evaluation, with the reforms of cascading democracy to smaller electoral bodies, local authorities etc., what function an Assembly? What need for an intermediate paymaster when the UK wide civil service is quite capable of sharing out the tax pot with equanimity and even handedness.
There are no differences in the UK so great that local administrations cannot resolve, in fact where differences do occur that require a local solution, where better than at point of difference should a solution be found and applied.
I'm not sorry to say the days of Plaid are numbered, not because of political malice, just redundancy.
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Likeable Dai Melding isn't really a Tory at all. He was so "wet" in the old days that he was a puddle. His switch to Plaid is a matter of time and he will be more than welcome in our ranks. When he has to choose between the unbridled English nationalism of the next UK Tory government and standing up for Wales, I think he'll know what to do!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Stonemason how do you square your comments with the pledge given by your party leader not to reduce MPs in Wales. As stated before, by people better qualified than us, for the National Assembly to function properly, for their to be proper scrutiny of the actions of the executive and the maintain party balance on committees the Assmebly needs to have at least 60 members, cut that and you sacrifice efficiency.
Noah- as expected - insults and highly charged words to draw a response, no debate just insult. Sorry but no point debating with you.
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#7
I'm not into crystal ball gazing as your friends at Llandudno seem to relish, there is the boundary commission to sort this little conundrum, but here is a question for you and your Plaid friends, how do you square the boundary commission not considering every constituency, there is only one country, and West of Offa's dyke is part of it.
It seems the MP for Carmarthen East is quite out of kilter with the majority of the electorate, he wants to "spend, spend, spend", whilst the voters are overwhelmingly in favour of cutting public spending, this is not just Conservative voters, a majority of all voters. And one would assume the cash cow at Cardiff Bay would be required to participate, the will of the voters etc. .........
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#7
And to compound the plaid depression Lyn_Thomas, I commend The Sunday Times to all the Plaidocrats, the article by Richard Woods "GET SET FOR THE GREAT TORY", capitalisation as in the newspaper.
See it at " http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6832333.ece "
I think the expression is read it and weep.
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Did i miss something?
I thought we started the weekend with Plaid wanting to dispel the 'myth' that it was obsessed with the Welsh language and independence.
And how did we end, with A Price and D Iwan singing (hopefully not literally in the case of the former) the praises of independence and an 'urgent' resolution on the language.
Me thinks more work is needed on the plan.
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The man now wants the Conservative Party to apologise for the flooding of the Tryweryn Valley, the quality of this man's thought process must bring into doubt his fitness as a politician.
Will he be demanding the Royalists amongst us apologise for the actions of Edward I, or the Marcher Lords, who will be asked to apologise for those, Harold II who was the first to sort the tribes out, those West of Offa's Dyke, who will apologise for him.
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12
More Labour's problem.
Still, Melding is a sound man and he knows the way the wind is blowing.
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I apologise on behalf of the Brythons to the Saxons for the massacre at Mynydd Baddon...and to the Normans for Crug Mawr.....and behalf of Glyndwr for cruelty at Mynydd Carn.
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QUOTE message 7. At 12:14pm on 13 Sep 2009, Lyn_Thomas wrote:
Noah- as expected - insults and highly charged words to draw a response, no debate just insult. Sorry but no point debating with you.
Why thank you Lyn Thomas, I thought it might have been you. No racism,no homophobia, no sexism,no swearing,no libel...but still you see fit to go running to mama.
You'll note that all the insults and highly charged words were addressed to professional politicians who you would expect to be able to take such stuff in their stride.
It would appear that you have now set yourself up as some kind of Plaid politician 'carer', and overseer and definer of "debate" on this forum.
May I ask if this is new Plaid policy on here? While Price can say pretty much what he likes on BBC television, us mere mortals (voters) can have our scribblings instantly removed at the behest of Plaid activists who suspect that nationalist politicians might be offended by such gentle remarks as "well at least Adam Price doesn't need to stand on a box when making a speech"
I see and hear much worse every single day and night on the good 'ole BBC, yet would fight like hell if some prude complained and got "Mock the week" taken off the air.
Maybe Frankie Boyle and Hugh Dennis might take over as moderators on here.
Such delicate flowers.
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#13 Dewi_H wrote ......
...... "I apologise ...... "
Why ?
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Dewi H at #13
Thank you Dewi, appreciated - however we in Pembrokeshire want not only an apology but significant financial reparation, for the damage and personal suffering done by invading tribes from the North raping and pillaging our fair land since 500BC.
It seems Plaid considers itself to represent the decendants of these unpleasant people, the activities of whom, they glorify and hold in some esteem.
Consider in particular - the destruction of Wizo's (now Wiston) Castle in 1147, took us 25 years to rebuild after that incursion. - then in 1160 Llewellyn raided Tenby and damaged the town walls, played havoc with the tourist trade.
There are many more well documented incidents.
Now we have Plaid et al destroying our language and culture. - surely enough is enough!!!
A modern invasion and attempt to eliminate our heritage.
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Some of the comments on here are as irrelevant to real life and as humorous as any comedian could come up with.
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For "Mynydd Carn" read "Bryn Glas" - mixing up me mountains...
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Re 10
So, are you ideologically against a resurgence in the language? Are you really saying that? You want it to die?
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Re 16
West-Wales
I must have missed that dip in the number of English speakers in Pembrokeshire! You know very well that it is the Welsh language culture of the north of the county that is under very real threat - that doesn't seem to worry you for some reason! As you are so concerned about cultures and languages being under threat, have you considered joining the Welsh Language Society, they could do with even more people of principle and humanity?
As for the rest, once we gain independence, I'm sure all of us can enter into meaningful negotiations!
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"Now we have Plaid et al destroying our language and culture"
Can you name a single family in South Pembrokeshire who have "lost" the English language?
Ever since we started on history of South Pembrokeshire on here I've been reading up. Adventures of Nest's grandsons etc fantastic stuff..It was the expansion of Lord Rhys's Deheubarth into the Norman lands of the South that triggered the Irish invasion I reckon...
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#19
That has absolutely nothing to do with what i said. My point was about Plaid's less than convincing attempt to correct its 'false image'.
Why does that have to be turned into something about the survival of the
language? Were you at Llandudno by any chance? I think i'm beginning to see why Plaid is incapable of moving beyond hysterical arguments about language ...
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Any chance of compensation for what the Romans did to us? Mind you, they did build the odd road, town (fade into Life of Brian sketch).
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And as for those norty (sorry, naughty) Marchers; oh, they were awful, when it came to plunder.
And where was Edward I's Sustainable Building Policy when he built all those high carbon footprint castles?
Seems like we are all human.
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#24
Well, by human I suppose you mean homo sapiens sapiens. Some of us in actual fact consider ourselves to be homo neanderthalis. So not human at all, but fairies in fact.
And we want compensation from all of you sapiens. Coming over here with your so called "agriculture" and building houses and chopping down all the trees and making us wear clothes...
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The Castles of Edward were in fact low carbon footprint projects, Stone quarried by hand, drawn to site by horse and cart, laid with lime mortar (a very green material).
Following on from the construction phase there was the additional benefit of centuries of peace for the little people, many of whom joined him in the quest the extend the peace into Scotland, and then to join his descendants who tried unsuccessfully to take peace to France.
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26
Ah, so France is now a meant to be another inalienable part of Greater England. We might face a few problems trying to get this message across the Channel.
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#27
I'm not sure which of the Plantagenants achieved the list first, but it was King of England, Count of Anjou, Lord of Ireland, Duke of Normandy, Duke of Aquitaine, Count of Maine, Duke of Brittany, Prince of Wales, Lord of Cyprus, Plantagenet claim to France, Plantagenet claim to Jerusalem, Plantagenet claim to Sicily, * Plantagenet claim to Rome, Plantagenet claim to Castile. (Courtesy of Wiki naturally.)
An ambitious family with a claim to France.
Fortunately they and their successors were displaced by our great democracy of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, a place of safety, even for the Nationalists who would sunder this great state.
A great word "sunder", should we rename separatists as sunderers, a useful scrabble word.
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message 27...
In case it has passed you by, we are already part and parcel with France, it's called the European Union.
So I suggest those across the Channel will have no trouble at all.
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Re 27 and 29
27:
"Ah, so France is now a meant to be another inalienable part of Greater England. We might face a few problems trying to get this message across the Channel."
29:
"In case it has passed you by, we are already part and parcel with France, it's called the European Union."
Now then, mapexx, what thought processes are at work here? What kind of logic are you employing? Are you really saying Greater England = EU?
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message 30.....
Why not?
England/Britain has pretty well shown the way for most that the world now takes for granted.
So unless the petty minded and foolish manage to extricate the UK from the EU at some indeterminate time in the future, all I can visualise is ever more Anglo/British/American influence becoming the norm, in both the Federated evolving Europe, and, as is already happening, thanks to the English language, and the ubiquity of all things 'western' based on British/Americanisation, the rest of the world.
Now that may not suit certain persons views of the minuscule Cymro attitude to the matter, but that is the way it seems to be heading.
And, as we now seem to agree, 'Might Is Right!',which would appear to be the case, when the matter of the English language, and ever expanding influence of the British is taken into account.
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Today Adam Price burnt his imaginary bridges when he said .....
..... There are no circumstances ever where I would join an administration led by the Conservative and Unionist Party. Print this out and keep. For the complete passage " http://www.adampriceblog.org.uk/quote-hain-get-baloney "
Naturally he speaks in riddles, as an invitation from the Conservative Party is as likely as fish with feathers.
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"Naturally he speaks in riddles, as an invitation from the Conservative Party is as likely as fish with feathers"
Actually after the next Assembly elections such an offer seems to be one of the more likely eventualities. Has Bourne ruled it out Stoney? (by the way in answer to a question elsewhere Golwg is a monthly - I think it's about £1.50)
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#33 Dewi_H .......
Has Bourne ruled it out ........
I certainly hope so, if he hasn't UKIP will probably gain votes by the bucketful, should he be asked prior to the next ballot I wonder ?
Looking at the on-line Golwg it seems to be a collection of news snippets, is it better in print ?
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Golwg a bit "look how well this girl from Tregaron has done" I find. Web thing ain't bad - as you say it's deliberately designed to give small bits of data.....I'd ask Mr Bourne if I were you...
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to whom it may concern....
So far, all attempts to raise a Cymraeg language daily have failed. despite offers of substantial funding, (without the permission of the people) from the Assembly WAG.
Yr Byd seems to have gone by the board, this Golwg is virtually a cult rag, with a expressed circulation of 15k.
Wowee!, what a challenge to The Sun, and the rest of the dailies, and out twelve times a year, with, I would guess, most going to Cymraeg educational, and other establishments, under subscription.
Not exactly a serious take up by those most important readers, THE PEOPLE of Wales, all 3 millions of us.
I can expect a small number being on sale in Cymraeg rich areas of fluency, but even there I would be surprised to see much take up at point of sale tills.
I have no doubt there are other such magazines and publications, but they again, are usually left lying on desk tops, and in 'libraries' where the readership levels are nominal.
So please do list for me the titles, but qualify your stance by listing alongside the circulation figures, and where the bulk actually are called for.
I would again say most go to councils, libraries, and Cymraeg orientated academia, of one sort or another.
Public purchase would be most surprising to me, if figures amounted to more than a few hundred in total.
The truth is, ninety nine percent, if that even, of the population, prefer to take their Welsh 'news' from one or other TV station, radio channel, or their daily paper, otherwise they live without taking it up at all, but just generally absorb it subconsciously from what ever is going on around them.
Try as one may, the facts speak for themselves, the Welsh, very much in common with the rest of the UK, have little appetite for what is being claimed for in their name by political wannabee's who have for the moment managed to grasp some small degree of power over them, via this nonsensical devolution that has been a fad trend for a few parliamentary terms, but like the dearth of Cymraeg media, will soon be consigned to a historical backwater, with a take up of just a relative few in real terms.
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Ignoring the dross I agree that Print Media is on it's way out in general.
Some circulations:(full price sales) Y Cymro - weekly - 3,500 odd.
Golwg weekly (I tthought it was monthly for some reason) - 3,000 odd.
Barn (an intellecual monthly) - 1000 odd
All have showed steep declines over the last decade on line with all Print Media (Western Mail circulation now down to 30,000 ish)
There's a myriad of local monthly newspapers (which we call Papurau Bro) at the last count 60 serving all corners of Wales. There are many other specialist publications.
Here's the intersting bit. The BBC News-site in Welsh (Cymru a'r Byd) gets monthly unique hits of about 150,000 and is the fourth most popular site in any language in Wales. (About a quarter of those visits from the diaspora, which is again interesting) and 40% from young people.
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message 37....
Here's the REAL interesting bit...
The BBC Cymru a'r Byd may get 150k hits,over a month, but that does not mean they are all individuals doing the hitting. Just because Joe Bloggs buys his Sun or Mail daily, it does not make it a reason to claim the circulation, which 'hits' effectively are, can be totalled up by the same parameters.
For all you know, some folk may be 'hitting' three and four times a day, if not more.
Over a month, and accepting the diasporics are part of those hits, then I would say that some folk hit on a regular basis, and in doing so, pump up the numbers for the log count.
Definitely NOT the same as copy on copy of a daily paper, no matter how it is racked up.
The truth behind the 'interesting bit' therefore is, probably no more than the numbers who actually read the hard copy magazines, bought over a month, if that even, (considering a large tranche of those are subscribed to by 'official' bodies), but because they do so frequently, and repeatatively, what IS the true figure?
Nowhere near a 150K, I would estimate.
Or to put it another way, not every hit is equalt to a separate newspaper being taken out of Tesco or Sainsbury et al.
I am afraid that your last message was, therefore, far more 'dross' than mine old boy!"
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" The BBC Cymru a'r Byd may get 150k hits,over a month"
As I said Map these are unique visits from different IP addresses. The only duplication is if people visited from different machines - which can happen - but surely this is countered by multiple use of one machine by family members.
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message 39....
I doubt you have access to such information as that.So refined.
I seriously doubt the web page registers individual addresses, but, even if it does, whether it makes that data public.
150 thousand individual hits per month?... extremely unlikely.
That would mean at least a half of the supposed Cymraeg speaking population, I seriously doubt that anywhere near that number are that committed to logging on to that web site. Even taking into account, a probably, very few, who no longer live in Wales,but like to keep up with local events etc.
Taking it like that would also mean probably more than a list of half a million at least, over all, and I just cannot accept that to be the case.
No, I will stick to my original assessment of multiple hits by the same daily keyboard users.
You can interpret whatever the figures are, in whatever way you wish, but you do not convince me.... at all.
You argument is the about same as the one about two years ago, when the matter of a daily paper in Cymraeg was raised, apparently their web site had a claimed hit rate of hundreds of thousands, but when it came down to the wire, they were multiple hits, from a very small, and very committed group of Cymraeg language supporters.
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Now you say I lie Map:
There you go:
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
Have a read.
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Try copying and pasting that without the brackets:
([Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator])
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OK - try googling "Cymru a'r Byd unique hits"
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#43 Dewi_H, if you include a link that has a pdf file as part of it, as you did with "GrahameDavies.pdf" it is disallowed automatically. The BBC are quite right protecting the users from the content of such documents that they cannot validate, validate within the bounds of moderation.
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40
Nothing to worry about here. When there are facts and hard numbers (and opinion polls!) that work in any way in Wales's favour, they are to be ignored.
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"GrahameDavies.pdf" - yeah I gathered Stoney - have you read it?
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Have saved it to disk, stripping wallpaper at the moment, I intend to read it tonight.
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