Risk
Given this story confirming the rumours that have been rife for quite some time, I found myself playing a guessing game over lunch.
Call it Assembly Risk.
If you were Adam Price, would you make sure you went for an Assembly seat in 2011 rather than risk others overtaking you as shoo-in for party leader? If so, where would you stand?
I think our counters eventually landed on Neath.
The discussion as to how many more years Ieuan Wyn Jones will want to lead the party ... or the party will want Mr Jones to lead it prompted a look back through the archives. For what it's worth this was how I saw the Assembly Risk board back in April 2007.
Ieuan Wyn Jones
The timing could not have been better.
I was searching for the right words to capture Plaid Cymru leader Ieuan Wyn Jones without falling back on tired phrases like "steadfast solicitor" or "meticulous manager".
Then one of his own MPs came to the rescue. "He's punctual, he's a good negotiator, a good man and woman manager," said Adam Price.
"He's a good country solicitor, that is the way he comes across".
With friends like these...?
It did get better, though: "He gets the job done".
And there you have it. His own party knows that to sell him to the voters as a charismatic, exciting prospect as first minister would get nowhere.
It's just not his style and so for now, it cannot be theirs. But if those very same voters have lost their trust in the charismatic Tony Blair, have had enough of the far better known First Minister Rhodri Morgan, then Plaid may well be hoping that a man who gets the job done quietly is just what they're looking for.
So does he get the job done? A plus point to start: he's held on to the tricky seat of Ynys Mon since 1987 as MP, then as AM. That's no mean feat, and his voters must think he's doing a decent job.
But he has led Plaid since 2000, and in that time its assembly seats have fallen significantly from 17 in 1999 to 12 in 2003.
He may have delivered as campaign director in the first assembly election but under his leadership, the party lost precious, crucial ground four years later, and lost its Westminster seat of Ceredigion in the 2005 election.
The promise from his supporters was that he would grow into the job of leader. He was, after all, taking over from Dafydd Wigley, a politician who lacked neither charisma nor that magic ability to appeal to voters across Wales.
The party's 2003 manifesto, he said, offered voters "nothing short of a blueprint for the transformation of our country".
It didn't work. Voters who had taken a punt on Plaid in 1999 decided against a second flutter. They didn't like the blueprint, and perhaps the boss didn't do it for them.
Every constituency seat Plaid lost in May 2003 went to Labour. On the morning after the night before Mr Jones stood outside his party's Cardiff headquarters and read out his resignation statement.
The man who had been MP, AM and party president had lost the confidence of too many of his colleagues. He would continue to represent Ynys Mon in the assembly but that was it.
Or at least, that was it for a couple of months.
On 15 September 2003, Mr Jones made a swift comeback as leader of the party in the assembly, and folk singer Dafydd Iwan became party president, as the roles were split.
A tick in the charisma box there. But even that win was a close-run thing, with a small majority over rival Helen Mary Jones.
There was no point pretending that anything like all those people who had lost confidence in him had regained it over their summer holidays - but he survived.
The qualities that won him tough battles in Ynys Mon over the years - determination, a genuine belief that Plaid must represent the whole of Wales - won him a few tussles in Cardiff Bay too.
And now he faces the next big test.
Plaid will be disappointed not to add at least two - perhaps three - seats. It's not exactly heady stuff.
But remember those pictures of Rhodri Morgan at the Senedd with Mr Jones before Christmas? They were cutting a deal which led to Plaid agreeing not to vote down the Labour assembly government's budget.
Much as some Labour supporters hated it, Mr Jones was saving Mr Morgan's skin. Only hours after Welsh Tory leader Nick Bourne had said the opposition parties would unite to form a government if the budget fell, Mr Jones offered Labour an escape.
Responsible politics and grown-up leadership? He thinks so.
There was more than one Plaid supporter wondering what on earth he was playing at but crucially, his AMs stood firmly by his side.
As he left the building that evening, he clutched a plastic carrier bag. "Isn't it amazing what you can buy with £13m?" he grinned.
Will there be more deals struck by him after 3 May? Welsh Secretary Peter Hain has ruled it out, and Rhodri Morgan's spokeswoman says there's little appetite for deal-making amongst Labour AMs.
Let's see what the voters and the complex maths of assembly elections bring the "good negotiator".
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~20~RS~)
Comments
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A minority labour government would be better for Wales than giving the Nationalist tribe another term hanging to the coat tails of governance.
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There might not be much appetite for deal making amongst Labour AMs right now, but there may not be that many of them before long.
Labour need to face the consequences of no longer being the by default leading party. Life in a multi party democracy will be far more interesting.
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Betsan, ....
I suggest we wait until May the 4th. before we ask that question posed in your paragraph below....
".....Will there be more deals struck by him after 3 May? Welsh Secretary Peter Hain has ruled it out, and Rhodri Morgan's spokeswoman says there's little appetite for deal-making amongst Labour AMs....."
Will Labour be in any position to need 'deals', if so and Plaid do not get what you mentioned for them, will deals if done be with another party, or even individuals who get in on a Independent, (not independence) ticket?
How about if the Tory ticket clears the decks, as some seem to think likely?
As I said, My option is to read all about it on May 4th, and leave the speculation to the hopefuls.
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My counter came down on Neath too, Betsan.
The subject was raised last week, when the story first broke, in Simon Dyda's Ordovicius' blog. My answer was:
"If Adam needed to fight a FPTP seat that isn't currently held by Plaid, Neath would probably be the best bet. He can properly claim the Upper Amman Valley as his "patch", and indeed challenged Peter Hain to take him on at this time last year when Hain was toying with the idea of becoming an AM and leader of Welsh Labour. Plaid were 1944 votes behind Labour in 2007, so it is certainly winnable but by no means a shoe in*. However I think his high profile would probably be enough to win Neath, and the good thing is that Plaid would still keep their two South Wales West regional seats if he did win.
"So if he were my chess piece (which of course he isn't) I'd be inclined to have him fight Neath in the 2011 election, but not resign as an MP unless he won. That acts as a safety net to keep him as an elected representative (one way or the other) until 2015.
"By then the situation will have become clearer, but he would have three good routes to choose from: to stand again in Neath if he feels sure of winning, to stand in Carmarthen East if Rhodri GT steps down in 2015, or to be one of the top two on the regional list for SWW.
* Or indeed shoo-in ... I fear this will generate at least twenty heated posts if recent threads are anything to go by!
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But, the subtext of your post seems to be that Adam Price is coming to the Senedd because Ieuan Wyn Jones is not charismatic enough as a leader.
You're quite welcome to that view of course, Betsan, but to my mind IWJ has proved to be a very good leader. His performance on transport in particular has been to change policy in a number of good ways, not least of which were the courageous decisions to scrap "superhighway" schemes such as the widened A494 and new M4 motorway.
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AP will come to the Senedd because he will be able to serve Wales better in Cardiff than at Westminster. This will be even more true when the Senedd gets primary lawmaking powers, which I still believe will happen after a referendum either late in 2010 or early in 2011. Westminster is becoming of less relevance to Wales, and that trend is certain to continue. More decisions that influence our lives will be made in the Senedd, which is what the BBC St Davids Day polls for the past few years have shown a large majority of us want.
I think it's very unlikely that AP will challenge IWJ for the leadership. He simply remains odds-on favourite to become the next Plaid leader when IWJ chooses to step down.
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Message 4...
"....Westminster is becoming of less relevance to Wales...."
In your dreams old son.
Wales is becoming "less of a relevance to Westminster" you will soon be finding.
Please do not be offended if I mention counting chickens whilst still encased in their shells.
I have seen popinjays swanning about with their "what I will do, once this or that happens", ....
.....but Wowee! did it happen?.... did it hellaslike.
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My thoughts are that going into coalition with Labour was the right decision. The alternative was a minority Labour administration. An administration that would be at the mercy of ad hoc decisions by a divided opposition. That is not a recipe for coherent or cohesive government. By accepting the Deputy First Minister position rather than being First Minister in a grand rainbow coalition Ieuan Wyn Jones showed leadership, he turned down the top job to give Wales stable government and that is admirable. It showed that he was capable of putting country before party. Something that also, to a degree, has to be said of Rhodri Morgan too. This suggests that Ieuan is probably safe in position for this term and probably the next Assembly too. If Adam does get in to the National Assembly, and I agree Neath probably would be a good bet, then it will give him time to “bed down” in the institution. He clearly is a leading contender for the post of party leader, I think there will be others there though when that time comes, so not cut and dried.
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Lyn #6
he (IWJ) turned down the top job to give Wales stable government and that is admirable.
My view is a little different - Ieuan saw that keeping a discredited and beaten Labour party in power gave Plaid the opportunity to drive through a programme that would have been impossible with the Rainbow Coalition.
This was not Country before Party - rather cynical subversion of democracy.
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5
Yes, you are seeing the light!
When Wales becomes irrelevant to Westminster, Wales will be relevant to Wales.
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message 8...
It is that sort of woolly thinking that has us in the current mess, nothing at all to do with Westminster, everything to do with that diabolical mess in the Bay of Pigs.
For we who have seen the light, it is at the end of the tunnel, which we are approaching on a daily basis.
So yes, we have seen the light, but as with the Shakespearean Sun in Romeo and Juliet, it shines in the East at dawn. And it's name is enlightenment for the Welsh people.
Remember that word ...Dawn.. the awakening is about to take place.
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9
What has Dawn French got to do with this?
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9
It makes sense now. From 'Welsh History' by RS Thomas:
"We were a people, and are so yet.
When we have finished quarrelling for crumbs
Under the table, or gnawing the bones
Of a dead culture, we will arise
And greet each other in a new dawn."
The "dead culture" being subservience to an imposed union and the sense of inferiority and cultural cringe this infers.
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Returnee 11
RS Thomas - The sad wailing of a misguided man.
I prefer Kipling - a Verse from "A ledgend of Truth"
ONCE on a time, the ancient legends tell,
Truth, rising from the bottom of her well,
Looked on the world, but, hearing how it lied,
Returned to her seclusion horrified.
There she abode, so conscious of her worth,
Not even Pilate's Question called her forth,
Nor Galileo, kneeling to deny
The Laws that hold our Planet 'neath the sky.
Meantime, her kindlier sister, whom men call
Fiction, did all her work and more than all,
With so much zeal, devotion, tact, and care,
That no one noticed Truth was otherwhere.
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13
Read 'The Man Who Went Into the West' by Byron Rogers for a contrary take on him. It contains evidence of a bone dry homour.
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14
He probably had a bone dry humour as well...
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13 & 14
Extract from "The Man Who Went Into the West" by Byron Rogers.
a passionate Welsh nationalist who spoke in a cut-glass English accent, married an English woman, published poems written in English with English publishers, and sent his son to English private schools; and he was a pacifist who appeared to condone the fire-bombing of English holiday homes by the Sons of Glyndwr ("Even if one Englishman got killed, what is that compared to the killing of our nation?").
Prefer Kipling, a man of his time, His writings at least reflected reality, the strength of character of the British people, with an honest respectful portrayal of the foe.
But I as a man of science, not letters, RS Thomas brooding attempts to present his warped view with elegant, clever poetry, simply leave me feeling slightly sick.
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15
I am a man of science as well and fully recognise his flaws and contradictions. You are quoting Andrew Motion's review in the Guardian rather than the book itself (Guardian 8th July 2006). What he said was unsavoury (and not quite what one expects from a member of the Anglican clergy) but it is the poetry that matters here.
RS Thomas, like Kipling reflected reality. Their ages and outlooks result in different realities in the poetry, but both are are great and honest poets, and Motion would agree. The Wiki entry has a link to Dalrymple's review which takes a look at his poems on death and relationships. These are honest.
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16
Returnee, correction accepted thank you.
As a word smith, Thomas must rank among the best - he is able to conjure passion and vision in his work - Kipling had the same skill, was much more prolific and lived and mixed with those he wrote about.
Kiplings work has historical value as a record, as well as being a monumental collection of literature.
Thomas on the other hand presented a fiction for political ends, and did that rather well.
It is the fictional vision he presents I find unacceptable, he has provided a weapon for future activists built on a biased view. A vehicle of hate and conflict.
While Kipling reflected reality, Thomas presents a view based on an image of what he would like to be, to further his own believes, rather than what is.
Your comment in 11
The "dead culture" being subservience to an imposed union and the sense of inferiority and cultural cringe this infers.
Shows the impact his work can have on those who want to hear.
-"Imposed Union" only the view of a minority,
-"sense of inferiority and cultural cringe" tell that to our national Rugby team and the supporters, - but wait for me to leave first :)
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message 10...
I dunno, ask Lenny!
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Re 17
RS was, indeed, an intensely political figure. His poetic output, however, contained comparatively little political material. People who have come to the conclusion - be it from biography or reviews, or any other source - that they don't like the man, consistently make that error.
Kipling, however, wasn't half as good a poet as RS. Not many were!
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#19
Your ..... "wasn't half as good a poet as RS" ..... lacks substance, lacks objectivity, it is lacking.
Kipling is Nobel Laureate, this does not make him half a Thomas .....
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message 20....
Talking halves, lets go for minute fractions,... How many across the world have heard of Thomas, compared to the vast number who have heard of, read, and watched, Kipling, in all the various forms his works have been presented?
'If' only Thomas had been so well known, "he would have been a man, my son".
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#21
Bravo mapexx, Bravo.
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Re 21 & 22
It's somewhat strange that I am able to use the same word that I've just employed on another thread here as well - cliche. Mostly Kipling's. Though it's no surprise that mapexx'a attempt at humour and show of knowledge turns to just about the corniest and most cliched poem written in any language ...
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message 23...
Not corniest, nor cliched, at least not when first published, just too damned difficult for you to understand, and gain insight from.
The same applies to you Fi Fi, if only YOU could indeed comprehend,....
"...then you'd be a man my son....!".
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Re 24
Could you now perhaps make a serious point?
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Message 26...
I have just done so, but again it is your inability to take on board justified criticism that allows you to repeatedly come back with such inane remarks.
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20-26
His later collections sold in excess of 20,000 books each, meaning he was by some distance one of the biggest selling British poets.
Kipling and RS are both poets, and both poets of the first rank, but they are poets of different times and place.
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Re 27
I still believe that RS was by far the better poet.
However, it is ironic, to say the least, that those who protest that they have no time for RS's work because they despise the man, see no fault in Kipling's character - and seem to see nothing of his racism, anti-catholicism, and fervent and unapologetic imperialism. But then, I suppose HE was a man of his time!!
But my interest lies in the quality of the poetry.
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T. S. Eliot and "The Waste Land" ..... a favourite passage.
And no rock
If there were rock
And also water
And water
A spring
A pool among the rock
If there were the sound of water only
Not the cicada
And dry grass singing
But sound of water over a rock
Where the hermit-thrush sings in the pine trees
Drip drop drip drop drop drop drop
But there is no water
..... the black dog was haunting both Eliot and his wife at the time of writing, poetry is an odd experience, you either grasp or discard, the authors on the other hand will be loved, loathed or ignored.
I wonder if they wrote wondering if you would read ?
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Re 29
I'm a big fan of Eliot also.
And the point of your question...?
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#30 It should have been an exclamation mark.
I think that poets write for themselves first and foremost ....
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Re 31
Well, yes and no. Welsh language poetry has always been a very public affair, and it still is. In the Eisteddfod in Bala, some 750 people would stand in line every day, whatever the weather, to see the poets in the Ymryson.
In that context, I doubt a poet would ever ignore his or her potential audience completely.
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Kipling!11What a man!!! I know If and the poem about his cakes...does anyone know how it end's .I only know thw first line
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I have found Kiplings poem!!!!! Here it is
If (By Mr. Kipling)
f you can bake a cake when all about you
Are burning theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust your buns when bakers doubt you,
Then make allowance for their doubting too.
If you can bake and not be tired by baking,
Get your jam-tarts out, don't make rhubarb-pies.
Don't make toast or give way to brown bread-making,
And yet don't burn your scones, and you'll be wise.
If you can make one heap of all your fine buns
And turn them into one huge wedding-cake,
Fine-sprinkle the top with hundreds and thousands,
Then that would be the best cake you could make.
If you can force your dough into a huge pan
To serve your turn long after you are gone,
Then maybe you would rather make a big flan?
And don't forget to make the odd croissant.
If you can bake with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or bake with kings, don't lose the common touch.
If neither cake nor bun-eaters can hurt you,
Then fill their tums with toffee, jam and fudge.
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of baking, run…
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And—which is more—you'll bake a cake, my son!
What a man Mr Kipling was!!!!!
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26
This is the most honest piece of self-criticism I have seen for some time.
Said like a man, sir!
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Does anyone know if R.S Thomas wrote any poems about cakes, or Blaenaffon?
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Re 36
No, but two of his volumes were called:
Poetry for Supper (1958) and The Bread of Truth (1963)!!
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36 and 37
Yes!
This is 'Good' from 1975's Laboratories of the spirit:
The old man comes out on the hill
and looks down to recall earlier days
in the valley. He sees the stream shine,
the church stand, hears the litter of
children's voices. A chill in the flesh
tells him that death is not far off
now: it is the shadow under the great boughs
of life. His garden has herbs growing.
The kestrel goes by with fresh prey
in its claws. The wind scatters the scent
of wild beans. The tractor operates
on the earth's body. His grandson is there
ploughing; his young wife fetches him
cakes and tea and a dark smile. It is well.
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Re 38
Well done!!
Marvellous stuff ...
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Fine poet RS, far better than Kipling in my view. I prefer his later work though, meditations on the silence of god (itself an answer), to his earlier worrying of the carcase of an old song. Does seem to have been a bit of a misery gutz though. Check out Byron Rogers bio of the dude...
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#38....
If that is what you call poetry, then my aunt is a mongolian Moon baby.
It is affectation by those who come to this sort of stuff, calling it 'poetry' that gives these literati wasters, the idea their outpouring is of value, to the extent they become so far up their own rears they really begin to believe they are great writers.
Tennyson, Keats, et al, must be spinning in their graves at the thought that such rubbish writing is being plauded.
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Do you mean Mongolian moon baby? Unless you are a muse poet, who favours the moon above all else.
Tennyson - a glass of port before bed.
Keats - radical revolutionary, savaged by mainstream critics in his day. Not sure why you'd dig him Map???
Just teasing ya old boy!
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41
Oh dear, these blogs were a place of rational and interesting discourse for a few hours.
It's back to the gor-blimey, string-'em-up cliches again.
As usual, I'll leave it to the real world to pass judgement on RS Thomas, rather than those who regard the Daily Mail as being soft on, well pretty well everything.
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43
Don't give up posting though!
My favourite RS: A Thicket in Lleyn.
For radical Keats y'all can check out Nicholas Roe's books. Good sheet. Ode to Autumn will never look the same...
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44
Not yet!
Keats would doubtless be singing RS's praise.
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message 43 to 45....
I just love those crappy American films of the sixties, gaudy in colour rendition, full of 'flower children',(bloody hippies) and forever spouting the same sort of hardly comprehensible jabber they called 'poetry' as your man above. At least they were taking the piddle out of the cognoscenti.
Not that the current, and recent, poet laureates have much going for them either.
The same thing with the so called 'art' of unmade beds, and piles of bricks.
Affectation, pure and simple, my elan when Saatchi's 'warehouse' full of the rubbish went up in flames, was a joy to behold.
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Re 46
I'm not sure how much Carol Ann Duffy you've read - perhaps you might be willing to divulge - but, again in my opinion, she is a very fine poet.
She is very different to RS. But, I suppose, because they've been on this planet at the same time, is enough reason for you to come to your own simplistic conclusions, and indeed place everyone in the same category - rubbish! You are perfectly entitled to your opinions - that is the way with the arts - but I detect a lack of knowledge and reading behind your prejudices against modern poetry; indeed, all modern art it would seem.
A closed mind is not a particularly wise way of visiting any kind of literature or art. I can appreciate, even enjoy, Kipling's poetry at a certain level, but he still comes pretty low in my pecking order.
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Why would you wish the following to go up in flames Mapexx?
Prayer
Some days, although we cannot pray, a prayer
utters itself. So, a woman will lift
her head from the sieve of her hands and stare
at the minims sung by a tree, a sudden gift.
Some nights, although we are faithless, the truth
enters our hearts, that small familiar pain;
then a man will stand stock-still, hearing his youth
in the distant Latin chanting of a train.
Pray for us now. Grade 1 piano scales
console the lodger looking out across
a Midlands town. Then dusk, and someone calls
a child's name as though they named their loss.
Darkness outside. Inside, the radio's prayer -
Rockall. Malin. Dogger. Finisterre.
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message 48....
For two reasons, 1: I am an atheist and cannot abide any sort of religious claptrap, be it coming from the pulpit, the TV or from affectacuous so called poets.
2: please explain to me what the so called poem you have cast onto this page actually means in reference to the life of anyone at all,. especially anyone whose problems lie in meeting his monthly mortgage payments or suffering from a terminal illness, or laying himself across the rail tracks to end it all because he has had it up to here with life generally,
Oh! and another...3: it's a load of disjointed bad English, and therefore total crap.
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Re 49
This ridiculous response means it's pointless discussing with you - as I said a closed mind...
However, I'll make one point. You ask:
"please explain to me what the so called poem you have cast onto this page actually means in reference to the life of anyone at all,. especially anyone whose problems lie in meeting his monthly mortgage payments or suffering from a terminal illness"
- as if poetry is meant to be a social security system or the NHS! It isn't, it's just poetry. This rather gives you away - you just don't like poetry, you just don't like art.
So, do Tennyson and Keats (you named them) have the answers to health problems or lack of money?
I'll answer my own question: in a way, yes they do. As do RS and Carol Ann. No,they don't solve anything, but they can provide comfort and solace. And they can make you think. Or at least, mapexx, they can make some of us think.
So, as an atheist, you are saying that you would be appalled by the sight of Michelangelo's Pieta?
I see that no-one has attempted to justify the inconsistency of attacking RS the poet because they don't like the man, whilst praising the poetry of the racist, anti-Catholic and imperialistic Kipling.
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49
The atheism makes sense, since for an atheist to try to fully appreciate RS is akin to a teetotal wine tasting.
50
What is so sad, and indeed pathetic, is this reductionist materialism. All that matters, it would appear, are baubles. Bling and trinkets, and Daily Mail approved 'poems'.
Baubles turn to dust, while higher art endures. It is the higher things that make us human.
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Re 51
First half of your message: despite his atheism, I'm a great fan of Larkin the poet.
Second part of your messsage: precisely.
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52
Larkin's 'Churchgoing' certainly has its merits. He is a master of concision - all the angst distilled into 'This be the verse'.
There is a worrying tendency to conflate the percieved person rather than what they actually wrote into the canon in Eng Lit Crit; Terry Eagleton on Larkin being a classic example.
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Re 53
I agree. I have said that I can still enjoy/appreciate Kipling's poetry at a certain level, despite the man. The same with Larkin.
Unfortunately, it was West-Wales who said "RS Thomas - The sad wailing of a misguided man", therefore dismissing his extensive and remarkable body of work simply because of his dislike of RS the man.
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message 50
.....
You are the most chopsy fool on here, and by even attempting to equate Michaelangelo's works with that of a mind numbing wordsmith, such as the guy you are praising, is totally ludicrous.
I am not in the slightest interested in pease pudding poetry, al la the so called modernists, nor the so called art of the so called modern artist. Nor did I make any issue of that guy's writings re the NHS or whatever else it is that your obvioulsy slewed mind thinks up.
I also cannot abide the perpetual references to religion, which itself is nothing more than fairy tales and myths born out of the fear of death, and oblivion, and that is all that is contained in these sort of works.
Painting is visual, and, to all intents and purposes, static, 'a picture paints a thousand words', but they are words of pure artistic essence, irrespective of their subject matter, not the mumblings of some clown with a religious agenda to push.
I would rather stand in front of a Michaelangelo, or any of the great classical artworks, for a day, than sit listening to such tripe you are promoting, for as long as 30 seconds.
In fact, in about three weeks time, I will be doing just that, as I wander through the Louvre in Paris.
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Re 55
If you had said all that in English, I might have understood some of it.
First, though, your:
"You are the most chopsy fool on here" - is hilarious!!!
Now then, your:
"I am not in the slightest interested in pease pudding poetry, al la the so called modernists, nor the so called art of the so called modern artist. Nor did I make any issue of that guy's writings re the NHS or whatever else it is that your obvioulsy slewed mind thinks up."
I disagree with the last bit, just look up what you said. As I said in my message, you don't like poetry.
Oh, by the way, 'that guy' as you put it is Carol Ann Duffy.
Oh, and Michelangelo's Pieta isn't a painting, it's one of the greatest religious works of art ever created, having started it's life as a slab of marble. But you'd still like to sit looking at it all day - well that's good news at least.
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Re 56
I'm reading far too much of the stuff on here - I should have typed 'having started its life'.
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56.....
Did I say the Pieta was a painting?.... No I did not, what I did say was, I would prefer to sit in front of a work by Michaelangelo...
And for the education of a person so far up you know where, in modern parlance, 'guy' is a unisex term, applied equally to male and female.
Also I do like poetry, not waht passes for it.
Have you ever tried writing out the above 'so called poem' in continuous line, instead of having it chopped into small lines that break it's sequence?
IT is nothing more thanj basic prose.
My idea of poetry is that with a intellectual ring to it, with rhyme and reason behind it, not just plucking words out of the air to no apparent purpose.
I was eductaed to read 'poetry', not garbage dressed up as non rhyming prose that means absolutely nothing.
Hence my love of Tennyson, Keats, Byron, et al.
Where is the comparison between your Duffy and Browing?
Had your Carol Anne Duffy made anything as instructive, entertaining and graphic, as The Pied Piper, from R.Browing, The Charge of the Light Brigade by Tennyson, or How Do I Love Thee? by Eliz. B Browning; amongst many many more, then you may have an argument, but to date, all I see is Tracy Emin style unmade beds of words, spewed out with little construction or form.
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Re 58
Perhaps you could tell me - in your opinion - when exactly did poetry end then?!!
But, clearly, this is the end of this discussion, as your closed mind cannot see any worth in anything that does not fit into your narrow definition of poetry, art - or indeed any other subject discussed on this blog.
"I was eductaed (sic) to read 'poetry', not garbage dressed up as non rhyming prose that means absolutely nothing."
- that could very easily have jumped out of the Daily Mail or The Sun. They may well be your newspapers of choice, I wouldn't know.
Taking a moment to read Carol Ann Duffy's poem only proves that you're spouting nonsense here.
What has 'instructive' got to do with anything?
I think you'll also find that people do tend to call a group of people of both sexes 'guys' - much to my annoyance. You'll not persuade me, or anyone else I would imagine, that anyone (other that you apparently!) would call a girl or a woman a 'guy'!!
Life must be so dull in the knowledge that no modern work of art can come along and knock you sideways. Dull and unimaginably sad.
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Just a few quick points.
Carol Ann Dffy's poem posted above, Prayer, is very traditional in form, as are many of her poems. It is a sonnet, it rhymes, and it makes use of iambic pentameter.
Carol Ann Duffy is an atheist.
Robert Browning's poems often don't rhyme, and neither for that matter did Milton's great epic Paradise Lost.
Michaelangelo was a poet as well as a painter and sculptor.
The Martian language may be banned from this blog, but Martian poets do exist, and they write in English.
"Ours is not to reason why, ours is but to do and die."
Lesson learned. Stopping thinking know. Thankyou, Alfred, Lord T.
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Re 60
There were so many things that I could have pointed out to mapexx - not least that he failed to spot that this was a sonnet, a sonnet that rhymes, mind you! - but what's the point...?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
One of my favourites;
"Cargoes" by John Masefield.
Evocative - progress, and nostalgia.
The beauty and mystery of strange lands, the sensual beauty of gems and spices, - and of times gone by.
I love the rolling words;
Quinquireme of Nineveh from distant Ophir
that conjure a magicical vision, phrases that flow so smoothly.
Then the last verse
Dirty British coaster with a salt-caked smoke stack,
Butting through the Channel in the mad March days,
A brilliant word picture - reality better than any film.
This is poetry.
Doesn't matter what the definition is - for me it works
Moderators rejected the full poem - Copyright issues!!!
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message 60,,,
Actually Fi Fi, in my first message re this matter I was not referring to the so called 'poem' that is now a sonnet. I was in fact referring to the previous one submitted by returnee. Message 38, and then the other one from saundersfoot or whatver his moniker is. That was where the religion matter came into it.
But as I was in between jobs and waiting for a delivery, I erroneously fell nto the trap of answering your following messages. In doing so I mistook the 'poem' we were arguing about.
That said, it is still a load of modernist rubbish.
Trawling back over the messages, and with a couple of snorts inside me, I realise I had allowed you you get under my skin on the subject.
Not to worry, mosquitoes do tend to irritate, watch out for the spray coming your way.
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64
'The spray' has rather unpleasant connotations, especially considering what started seventy years ago yesterday.
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65
? The Spray - do you mean;
"Sea Fever" I must go down to the sea again -
or
"The West Wind" Its a warm wind, the west wind, full of Birds' Cries; -
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message 66...
Nice poem Westy,... no the 'spray' I refer to is the one these nationalist types, mosquitoe irritants as they are, do not see coming, when their nonsense gets so far up the noses of those they claim to represent, suddenly, often like when CS gas or tear gas is used, blows back into the faces of those that threw the cannisters in the first place.
They 'spray' of public odium and rejection.
But trust a nationalist to put a 'September the 3rd 1939' slant on it, which invariably means that is what those types constantly have in mind, under their very thin veneer of respectable political behaviour.
Dr Strangelove is alive and well down in the Cymraeg regions, it would seem.
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