Lights and bushels
A colleague has just been interviewing Jane Hutt about this year's A level results.
He's giving the Minister for education an A* for her Welsh. 'Much improved' is apparently not in it and he reckons she'll soon by doing live interviews yn y Gymraeg.
Full marks.
Perhaps the Minister has been hiding her linguistic light under a bushel for some time but can we assume that having her sights on the First Minister's job has persuaded her to shove the bushel to one side?
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~29~RS~)
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ah yes of course.... a first minister who didnt 'siarad the handshake' just wouldnt be acceptable now would it. What an equal, unprejudiced country we live in.
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Now there seems to be a growing clamour for this minister to make some sort of move... or is this all whipped up by the press?
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It will be another sad day in politics if an essential requirement for the First Ministers Job is Cymraeg.
The people of Wales want to know that the best person for the job will get the chance to lead Wales If they speak Cymraeg that can be seen as a secondary bonus.
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My My such excitement in the welsh firmament as yet another politician sucks up to the welsh language brigade but learning to speak the favoured
language. The english only speakers might as well emigrate as we are more and more being coralled in a ghetto of inconsequence as the ability to speak welsh is now being pushed to the top of all public service positions. I doubt that we will ever see an english only speaking welsh person getting to top positions (particularly BBC Wales)in public services and our views/aspirations are being ignored by this gang of welsh activists who have taken over the region for their benefit.
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Betsan...
As though we don't already have a problem, now we may have Jabba the Hutt at the helm?......
(shudders uncontrollably) "...Perhaps the Minister has been hiding her linguistic light under a bushel for some time but can we assume that having her sights on the First Minister's job has persuaded her to shove the bushel to one side?...."
Must take two co-codamol and slope off to bed, I may never rise again.
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It may surprise people but I don't think the ability to speak Welsh is essential to be First Minister either. Desirable, but not essential.
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I agree with 3 and 6, it is a bonus, but not a great deal. Come 2011, let us all hope that it is raw ability and vision that counts, along with the ability - irrespective of party - to galvanise our electorate.
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Vision and ability, I would cast my vote for this no-matter which party, but excluding Plaid the party of yesterday, naturally.
Is Adam Price to be the new leader of Plaid, casting the runes it seems likely he is readying himself for a power grab at the top of this particular political tree, heaven help the people of Wales should he ever achieve real power.
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Jane Hutt will be remembered for doing to education what she did for the health service. Not sure there are words in Welsh to describe it!
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Jane Hutt, more commonly know in the valley's as Jane Fudd, any relation to Elmer Fudd, is not what Wales needs at the top of the political tree, can you imagine her working with Ieuan what's up doc" Wyn Jones, it would be a return of the toons.
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10. your quite right in that her period as Health Secretary was disastrous as the structural changes put in place had to be dismantled at great cost and the educational results only mirror whats going on elsewhere in UK. Ms. Hutt seems to be favourite of King Rhodri and what with speaking the "favoured" language with congratulations from our Betsan then might be First Minister before we know it!!.
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#12
Have I Got News For You!
Looks like they are going to have to do something similar with higher education.
The only safeguard for our money is a Memorandum of Understanding with a Quango namely the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales, which is not worth the paper it is written on.
Usually value for money is a task undertaken by the Welsh Audit Office who up until the introduction of the Public Audit (Wales) Act 2004 intervene in cases financial mismanagement.
The role of regulator which includes financial regulation under the Charity Act 2006 has had to be taken on by the Charity Commission itself.
Recent recommendations by the Innovations, Universities, Science and Skills Select Committee at Westminster said that the current system for safeguarding standards is out of date.
They also said that protection for student whistleblowers should be addressed as current arrangements are inadequate.
What is disturbing is that the damning evidence for this came as a result of student experience at a certain Welsh University.
In other words it had to get past the Welsh Assembly and the constitutional black hole of devolution and into Westminster in order to bring serious concerns to light.
They also said there was inconsistency across the higher education sector which is why some universities are over subscribed and others begging for more students with the unions going cap in hand for more money to keep them in a job.
The questions everybody is banned from asking under the above legislation is what has gone wrong? who has been held to account for it? and what has been done to put things right?
We have a right to know, but as things stand the only way of informing the public as to what is really going on is via this blog!
So what is Jane Hutt going to do about it, demonstrate leadership and get ahead of the game or wait to be told by Westminster?
What nobody is prepared to speak is the language of openness and transparency
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You have some very crabby Welshpersons reading these blogs. Jane Hutt is an intelligent and observant polititian who recognises how important the language is once one leaves Cardiff. I moved away 12 years ago and wish I had had the energy and skill to learn decades ago.
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#14
You have some very crabby Welshpersons reading these blogs.
Does that include yourself?
also
I moved away 12 years ago and wish I had had the energy and skill to learn decades ago.
There are a lot of us who also wish they were able to do this, but for many its a disability that needs to gain the same acceptance and tolerance as dyslexia.
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The recall election is the democratic tool missing, do you think that Jane Hutt would have survived two political disasters if the voters were able to take this particular albatross to task.
Johnsouthern78, tell your intelligent and observant politician about two strikes and out, then ask if she would fit into a meritocratic Wales, an honest politician would say no and resign, not seek more responsibilities.
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message 14...
What a obscure response.
You moved away, and wished you had learned the language?
And please do tell, how IS the language important, now you are elsewhere?
Unless you are in Patagonia, or mix with fellow escapee's, where would you find the language important?
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"There are a lot of us who also wish they were able to do this, but for many its a disability that needs to gain the same acceptance and tolerance as dyslexia."
You are approaching Mapexx type levels of ludicrous, crass, insults.
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It is great to have access to your feminine intuition to help us 'read between the lines' of all that political spin...
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#18
There is nothing offensive at #15, try reading what was written, there are many who would find learning a new language as difficult as relating to the world as a dyslexic.
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As I have explained before, you lot can sure dish it out, but cry bitterly when you get it back.
No I don't Map - it's you who are constantly whining to the moderators.
NeoCromwellian deserves an apology from me however. As Stonemason points out I misunderstood his meaning completely. Sorry Neocromwellian - com ments withdrawn.
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#18
I see the language police are out again.
What a wonderful display of the intolerance and facist attitude against those who find the language difficult.
No wonder people are opposed to it spreading.
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It's an interesting thought though... I have no doubt that there would be a lot more fuss (albeit from the same small no. of people)about a future non welsh speaking first minister than there would say a dyslexic first minister. You've only got to look at the fuss kicked up by Cymdeithas yr Iaith about that non welsh speaking guy taking over Anglesey council the other week for evidence.
Surely the point of the extensive and extremely well (public) funded translation department in the bay is to ensure that an AM or first minister need not speak Welsh as well.
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How very obliging of Jane Hutt, it just adds to the sense of revulsion against Llafur, in those who never wanted devolution in the first place.
Llafur, that cute outfit who constantly clamoured for the vote of the English speaking working classes.
And, then blithely went on to build a vast governmental powerhouse, Senedd, regional senedds, Institute of Welsh Affairs, Wales Audit Office and World wide embassies. Then of course we've got the language enforcement, requiring a vast increase of translators and teachers. So, we've seen an explosion of nice middle class, proper pensioned careers for the Rhodri types!! I work in construction with other working class folk, that sense of revulsion is such, I think Llafur is finished as a political party.
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Nobody asked the questions, what are the politicians that will fill this new assembly going to do, did no-one realise it was the also-ran that would fill the empty seats, and this group of not-going-to-make-it-in-Westminster would be looking for a way to garner power.
And to cap it all some buffoon suggested proportional representation to make it "fair", when in fact a "fairground" was created, and slab bang in the middle the great minds set down a carousel of quite magnificent proportions, not magnificent if you pay taxes, sufficiently large to hang the trappings of regional government, Jack_Wilkinson's offices and quangos.
In this great edifice a new aristocracy was spawned, and doesn't it do well for itself, not the citizens, not the little people, not even the majority of the middle class, and the new aristocracy includes a small unrepresentative group that thinks it might be good to float Wales off into the Irish sea.
Fortunately Plaid have been forced out of the cupboard, and Jane Hutt would be deselected, if only things were more democratic .........
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PR is fair if the intent is to produce a body that is representative of public opinion. How fair is it to hand 100% of the power to a minority, remember no British Government has commanded a majority of the votes cast in a UK general election in 50 years.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/vote2005/html/region_10.stm
I know for an absolute fact, that the Conservatives are going to change the crazy voting system in Wales!!
How can anyone excuse such unfairness? In the 2005 General election, Plaid with a vote share of 12.6%, earned 3 MPs!!
The Conservatives, with a hugely larger vote share of 21.4%, earned the same 3 MPs!!!! Change it will!!!!
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Read carefully again waht you have written. Effectively you are saying that in order to be First Minister you have to speak Welsh. This in a part of the UK where 80% are monoglot English and where many of the 20% who claim to speak Welsh are not that fluent in the language of heaven. The 80% who speak English would like a First Minister to be chosen on their ability and on the basis of their vision for Wales in the future not on whether they manage to conduct a basic interview at the linguistic level of a 6 year old through the medium of Welsh. Meanwhile in the real political world there are important issues such a how will the Assembly manage to get through the reduction in the bonanza of cash from Westminster of the next few years that need to be debated. That's what journalists should be asking Mrs Hutt not commenting on her abilty to order a cup of coffee in Caernarvon. But who cares Jabba wouldn't even be there after 2011. Without the intervention of UKIP Gordon Kemp would now be the AM for the Vale.Claiming to have read the 'Spirit Level' months after it was first published is not the sign of a Leader I'm afraid. As old Ronnie would say 'Where's the Beef?'
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Benedek,
I think we can both agree, that any idiot whose first language is English, and, votes for Rhodri's version of Labour, is a deserving victim of Cymraeg supremacy!!
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37 & 38
Probably a broader reflection of current political expectations and aspirations as well, and not an encouraging one.
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#39
Expectation, it's a word that can mean so many different things to so many different people, but on this particular thread two concepts that float to the surface are merit and justice; we have a scarcity of both in Welsh politics it seems.
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I would love to know where some of the people posting on here actually come from. They seem to believe that the Labour Party has gone nationalist, they haven't, unless their definition of nationalist is anyone who supports devolution. In which case it looks like that is something like 70% of the people of Wales (ie those that want devolution). I made it quite clear that I don't believe the ability to speak Welsh is essential for the job, though desirable. Again people construct phantoms around the language. Anyone would think that Wales is a fascist state where only Welsh speakers can advance and the 75% or so without Welsh are kept in bondage as some form of surfs. Can we please get back to the real world and debate real matters not these fantasies?
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#41
In a democracy everyone has a valid opinion, would you suppress dissent, are you becoming a Welsh Franco.
There is a philosophical sense of bondage, much as a serf might be bound to the land so Plaid attempts to bind the people of Wales to all our yesterdays.
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41.Lyn you might not think it essential for potential First Minister to speak the "favoured" language,but can you imagine the howls of abuse any english only speaker would get from the fanatics,and also the clear indication is that the 80% of population are viewed as "not proper" welsh by King Rhodri and his gang.There is a deep plan to push welsh as viewed by the increasing use of the language on the english part of BBC Wales where it is needed or wanted. S4C was set up to provide welsh language television at fantastic cost to taxpayers for the average 5 viewers so why cant BBC Wales stick to english only on my channel.
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No. 41
For goodness sake Lyn please wake up before the Labour Party disappears into oblivion.
Since "you" have decided to reach out to the non traditional Labour voters at the expense of the loyal core the party has seen its support drop to an all time low in Wales. Over 100 years I believe.
In the next Assembly elections how will Lyn Thomas the socialist nationalist be able to convince the electorate that his party is different to Plaid Cymru. By prostituting itself for power the party has lost its identity ensuring the public see both parties as one of the same.
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People seem to be labouring under a misaprehension, I am not a supporter of the Labour Party. That its vote has declined has nothing to do with supporting devolution, but more a reaction to its policies to reconfigure hospitals in Wales and the distrust gathered by the Labour Party in London.
Stonemason in a democracy everyone has an opinion that is true, however not all views can be shown to be valid, spouting lies and fabrications as the True Wales supportes here do daily does not give their views legitimacy.
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message 45....
What a brass neck you have Lyn.
True Wales spouts lies and fabrications? just as though..
What you seem to be getting mixed up with is the facts of the matter.
True Wales has made few declarations, if any, on this blog for quite some time, so where do you get off with your 'daily' remark.
It would appear that it is you, and the devo supporting gang who are prone to lying and fabricating.
I suggest you are a scaremonger, with an axe to gring for your opted devolutionary cause.
Now, if you can actually find, from any of the last few weeks blogging, an 'official' statement from True Wales, I will be pleased to acknowledge that, if not, then as a member of TW I will expect an apology, on behalf of TW,for your lying statement in message 45.
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Lyn
You have made a statement in 41 regarding Labour Nationalists on what evidence / grounds do you make this statement.
45
The Labour Party support has fallen greater in wales more than any other region in the UK, How can this be?
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Congratulations to Betsan for leaving such a juicy morsel of bait for the anti-Welsh language bigots and colonial blowhorns to squabble over the whole weekend! ...And look at them go, with such clockwork, Union-Jack-wielding determinability - the stamping feet of English inculcation never rest! :o)
Since Jane Hutt has sat in the Assembly since the beginning, and has been exposed to the frequent Welsh dialogue (+ translation) in Assembly debates - it surprises me is that she hasn't attained fluency earlier. This would suggest to me that Ms. Hutt hasn't made a particularly asserted effort to learn the Welsh language, because if it took a full decade for anyone to learn it nobody would ever dare to try! (Obviously, she's a busy lady!) Most Eisteddfod 'Welsh Learner[s] of the Year' (like this year's winner, the American contestant Meggan Lloyd Prys) achieve the goal within 2-2.5 years. It's a small investment in the space of a lifetime to become privy to the native culture of Wales; her beautiful songs, her many centuries of inspired poetry - for the price of a Welsh grammar primer & dictionary - it's churlish not to, and I say that as an Anglo-Welshman.
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48
Stone throwing again. Anyone who has an opposing view gets tagged as bigots. Grow up!!!
Also, as a proud Welshman I don't see the language as my culture and I'm sure 90% of Welsh People feel the same.
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#49 - Do responses to Betsan's blog often ammount to much more than stone throwing? Yours certainly don't - and your every brickbat has 'True Wales' written all over it.
I don't regard the Welsh language strictly as part of 'my' culture either, which is why I label myself Anglo-Welsh - I'm not a Cymro Cymraeg/Welsh Welshman, but it is the native language of my nation, and one which my Welsh (& Anglo-Welsh) ancestors spoke, and relatively recently too according to their census returns from 1891-1911 although no memory of Welsh speakership in my family survived to reach me.
I am aware of the rain of propaganda which Anglicised Wales in the first place however, and caused Welsh ancestors such as mine to abandon the old language; enveigled & exhorted as they were to believe it was nothing but a redundant, vulgar, social impediment. I'm not convinced working class English immigrants came in with that opinion either (as virtually all of my English ancestors who came to Wales had all learned Welsh within a generation) - that was clearly the message from the Anglican pulpits and shoolhouses - the voices of the Union-Jackboot-licking middle classes. Those who wanted cannon or factory fodder more receptive to their Anglophone commands.
I'm more than happy to endeavour to MAKE it part of my cultural experience, I'd now regard it as rather vulgar not to while happily settled in Wales - and I find the learning process tremendously rewarding, as the hymns and anthems of my schooldays become coherent to me.
That percentage of people who don't see it as part of their culture is clearly more around 80% or less though - and shrinking annually as our nation is becoming reborn as an increasingly confident, self-governing one.
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50
You are a genius, it didn't take long for you to click on my profile.
If you want to give us a history lesson why don't you go back to when we were joined to mainland Europe.
I am really pleased you have learned Cymraeg and I'm sure you will receive your just reward for such commitment to the cause.
As for increasing the language uptake, I'm sure you will agree any moron could increase the uptake taking on board the amount of money and social engineering being thrown at it.
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rhywun-arall at #48 and #50
A Mr. Cousins asked a profound question in Fridays Western Mail letters entitled "Any answers". I answered not as rhywun-arall' anti-Welsh language bigots or colonial blow-horns but as a pragmatist who looks to the future not the past.
Link to the letter "http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/letters-to-the-editor/western-mail-letters/2009/08/21/friday-21-august-2009-91466-24495051/"
my reply .....
His question is sociopolitical, what happens to my culture, my nation, my history, is it destroyed ?
The gentleman is writing about his language, about living his life using the medium of Welsh, about recording history in the medium of Welsh. He is concerned that his/our country does not die.
The news is both good and bad Malcolm, the probability is the medium of Welsh is destined for complete replacement by English through linguistic evolution, much as Sumerian, the language was replaced by Akkadian at about 400 BC, Sumerian was subsequently rediscovered and translated 2200 years later.
The good news is Welsh belongs to you, enjoy, the history of Wales is being recorded right now in English and Welsh, in the future the history of Wales will continue to be recorded, though it might be using the medium of Mandarin.
Will Wales as a country die? Probably, just as the ancient civilization of Sumer disappeared, to be absorbed and regenerated many times by events.
Does it matter Malcolm? Only if you continually look backwards, look forward towards the future, build for your grandchildren.
..... end of reply
You cannot hold back the tide of progress, you need to realise that 80% of your compatriots couldn't give a hoot about language, they are the future like it or not.
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Re # 51
History doesn't go back as far as Britain being joined to mainland Europe - that's what we call pre-history. Our history begins with a few Roman commentaries and the laments of Gildas re the withdrawal of Rome from Britannia, and the Britons (or Romano-Britons) being left in control of their island, while genocidal, Germanic colonists (who referred to the Britons as 'the Welsh') sought to steal it from them. To cut a long story short - ultimately Westminster's control over Wales is as legitimate today as that of any thief's rights to his ill-gotten plunder.
As for 'social engineering' being involved in the increasing Welsh language uptake - funily enough, barely any of my Welsh learning resources are published or produced by a publicly funded body; the only exception being one convenient but rather limited grammar published jointly by ELWa and the BBC, clearly more as a public service than a measure of social engineering as the book is sold at what looks like a standard (if albeit non-profit) retail price.
Personally, I'd put any increase in Welsh speakership down to one thing only - the cultural renaissance & enlightenment of the Welsh nation, in an age of mass-literacy & mass-media, while Welsh language learning resources have never been better, and the demand for the Welsh language in the work place (thanks to the (Tory) Welsh Language Act of '93) has never been greater.
As for what 'morons' do, usually they just stew in their own ignorance despite every benefit education and edification might bring to their lives.
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Our Plaid Nativist reactionary party in Wales is becoming insular, the high command has issued the order "no words without approval", at least no written or recorded words, it has been put on a war footing for the soon Westminster elections.
So we should see a fall in the oft used weapons of language, borders, moral values, loyalties to racial and ethnic groups, all expressions of the nativist culture in Wales, then of course there are the likes of rhywun-arall, someone else recruited to follow mapexx.
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Message 53...
It#' so easy to make a ridiculous statement like that, below....
"Personally, I'd put any increase in Welsh speaker ship down to one thing only - the cultural renaissance & enlightenment of the Welsh nation, in an age of mass-literacy & mass-media, while Welsh language learning resources have never been better, and the demand for the Welsh language in the work place (thanks to the (Tory) Welsh Language Act of '93) has never been greater."
Irrespective of which 'party' led the way, the simple truth is, there is NO great demand for Cymraeg in the work[place.
That is unless you take account of the pressure being forced onto the workplace from Cardiff.
The average guy and gal gets up in the morning and heads for work. They have no thoughts as to demanding a language other than the one they 'normally ' use, which invariably is English.
They are then, on top of their ordinary workload, presented with a caveat that they must begin to use a language that for the majority is a 'foreign' language.
They complete their day, and return to their home, possibly pausing on the way to go into a Tesco or Sainsbury etc to buy a few odds and sods, then after they have turned the key in the door, they almost immediately switch on their TV, and watch Western type programmes, again invariably in English. They will read their English language newspaper, (not a sign of one in Cymraeg), or magazine, speak to their friends and relatives, again in English, and wonder why their tax is being wasted on this unwanted language they are being FORCED to pay for.
On a Saturday most will watch sport, again with the commentary in English, or if on S4C with the subtitles in English, with the sound turned off.
Have you attempted to telephone any of these business's you refer to and ask to conduct your business in Cymraeg?
Try it with the NHS, or BT or BG or any one of a hundred large firms.
If you do actually manage to get through to someone who can accommodate you, you will be lucky most of the time, but quite often you will find yourself out of your linguistic depth.
I make that statement from a matter of experience and fact, not from some guess situation.
Social engineering is attempting to FORCE the whole 3 millions to accept and adopt the language that is anathema-tic to around 80% of the Welsh.
It is social engineering to slew the education system to force feed the language to the whole school population, much of whom disregard it as soon as they leave the school premises. they do so because it is irrelevant to them their families, and their everyday lives.
At the bottom of all this, we get the foolish telling us we have to go down the road to independence, because that is what where Wales was, 500 or so years ago.
Get real pal, you are now in 2009, not 1509.
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Re #52
Mr. Malcolm Cousins is clearly every bit the cultured and enlightened man, in touch with and respectful of the precious heritage of his nation, that you, Stonemason, are clearly not. Rightly you would suspect me to agree with his sentiments whole-heartedly.
Why people like yourself seem to delight in gross philistinism and wilful cultural vandalism, I have no idea but there is no honour to be gained from it and never will be - just keep giggling in ignorance while Cambria recovers her consciousness after the many blows and violations of colonialism, stands on her feet independently and after decades of amnesia learns who she is again.
All that can be deduced with certainty from history is that it will run its course. The difference is, I have faith in Wales, whilst you do not. Arguably we are both looking backwards as well as forwards with regards to Wales, but I'd argue that your vision is woefully myopic in either direction!
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#56 Fortunately your astigmatism is not an infectious condition, else the majority of the people of Wales would be in dire need of inoculation, is there an inoculum against dysrationalia I wonder.
Opponents of the Plaid Nativist reactionary party have faith in humanity, and realise all nationalist movements insidiously evolve into autocracy, the extremist way.
mapexx, I have appointments with Somerset stonework and Hampshire internals, so take care out there, pathogens abound.
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The Labour vote fell at the last Assembly election, that is a fact, if fell, I believe because its plans to reconfigure hospitals in Wales. I don't believe it fell because it supported devolution - if so why would opinion polls show a consistent rise in those supporting devolution and wanting more? The Euro elections are something else entirely - I suspect after the Westminster scandals that the party was hit hard by that and its vote fell. Euro elections are not a reliable indicator of Westminster or Welsh general elections.
As to True Wales lies, well a number of people here have declared themselves to be at one with its aims and are stated supporters, and lies such as cultural genocide or suggesting that Plaid is a sinister party bent on making the English speaking majority (ie people like me - a non Welsh speaker) surfs.
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Re #57 - Fortunately, at 30 years of age I retain 20/20 vision and don't need to consult some jumped-up old relic of the British Empire/Tory/Nasty party as to the state of my vision or general health. Given Daniel Hannan's recent comments about the NHS, is it wise to consult any Tory about such matters of healthcare?
Re #55 - While 'social engineering' strikes you as such a crime, perhaps you should remember that it was undoubtedly social engineering which virtually destroyed Welsh speakership between c.1850-1950 in the first place, and it is far from social engineering which is slowly restoring it if the success rates of GCSE-level Welsh for 2nd language learners is anything to go by. What is restoring it is individual initiative; the decisions of Anglo-Welsh parents to send their children to Welsh medium schools, or the additional efforts of those keen to learn Welsh beyond the reach of the National Curriculum as A-Level or H.E. students or indeed as adult learners. It's far easier for a state to destroy something, than for it to persuade every individual to rebuild the whole edifice for themselves.
The pair of you are awfully smug for individuals who perversely take pride in their own ignorance of the very subject they debate on a regular basis. It's one thing that you display no faith in or respect for the nation you reside in (or its native culture), but quite another that you gleefully demonstrate that you have no knowledge of the very issues you waste your twilight years debating!
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message 59....
You people just do not get it do you?
WE are not in the slightest interested in what went on over the century 1850 to 1950.. N or are we interested in what went on 500 years ago.
WE live in the here and NOW, 2009 to be precise, and that is all that matters.
What also matters is we will not tolerate Wales being destroyed by a bunch of political has beens and wannabee's, with nothing but their own benefit to concern them.
That they have managed to fool a small fraction of our population is one thing, that they have, so far, not managed to do the same for the rest is something else.
Yes we are smug, smug in the knowledge that the smoke and mirrors trickery that the Assembly/WAG performs, will not confuse us, nor if we can manage to raise the matter amongst friends and enemies alike, will such subterfuge gain ground in the forthcoming general and referendum elections.
You show your own complete ignorance of matters, by stating such falsehoods as Wales is a nation, and that it has culture.
Neither of which stand up to the slightest amount of scrutiny.
As for Anglo-Welsh parents sending their kids to Ysgol Gymraeg, as I have said before, trends come and go, and as soon as the drop out rates are made public, and the 'fad', for fad it certainly is, for sending their kids into the future wasteland that this form of education means for those poor little blighters, then we shall see juts how valuable the whole exercise will become.
The language CANNOT be enforced, nor should it be, especially at our expense through the taxation regime, but by all means carry on, it will eventually return to the previous state it was in, where it was in decline, only this next time the decline will be more rapid, and the speed of decline will increase exponentially.
All your quoting of historical data will mean not a single thing, nor will it do more than slap a band aid on the whole subject. And just like a band aid will drop off once the sore has been made better, so will the present 'perceived' demand for yet more of the same, also fall away.
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message 58...
What a few individuals, members of TW or not, say on here is I will tell you not what TW itself tolerates being said, unless the comments are in line with the fundamental policy of TW.
You made a categorical statement that TW stated lies.
And you have attempted to retract in the paragraph quoted below...but not very successfully....
"As to True Wales lies, well a number of people here have declared themselves to be at one with its aims and are stated supporters, and lies such as cultural genocide or suggesting that Plaid is a sinister party bent on making the English speaking majority (ie people like me - a non Welsh speaker) surfs."
As far as I am aware TW made no such remarks re 'cultural genocide', nor is anything of the sort in it's statement of policy.
However, if remarks were made re PC being bent on certain practices, then I suggest that, if you are in disagreement with that, you should visit some of the web pages promoted by, and certainly supported by, PC.
Where else do you think TW obtained such info that caused comments along those lines?
PC policy documentation refer es constantly to what is in operation under the regime running the Basque region of Spain, and how it's pol;icy is to bring such a regime to Wales.
The present Assembly WAG with the full compliance of the WLB is heading us towards the Basque model as I write.
I am afraid Lyn, you seem to be somewhat out of touch with what your party is up to.
It is from that direction that the lies emanate, and thick and fast also.
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61
I completely agree - All that matters is now.
All the historical talk is just jibber-jabber.
Let's concentrate on now, and recent history.
The now (since 1997) that is an ever increasing majority of people in Wales supporting devolution or even desiring more.
The astonishing revival of the Welsh language in recent years, in spite of everything that has been thrown at it.
The emergence of the country as a bi-lingual player on the world's cultural stage. Not one we always recognise, but advanced countries sure do.
I agree entirely; it is great that you have seen the light. Wales is about being here, it is about being here now and looking forward to our future as a place not a province.
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62
A Basque model sounds rather alluring when you think about it, albeit in a naughty but nice manner.
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Betsan:
Perhaps the Minister has been hiding her linguistic light under a bushel for some time but can we assume that having her sights on the First Minister's job has persuaded her to shove the bushel to one side?
Probably, yes, the Minister has been keeping her linguistic light under the clouds for a while....I am glad, that she did a good thing in the interview.....
=Dennis Junior=
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message 63
Your prose style is so clear and your arguments so lucid I just don't understand why people are so opposed to your point of view.
As far as I'm concerned Wales is the most democratic country in the world, and Welsh nationalists are the most objective writers on this blog.
Yes indeed, and Jane Hutt should be awarded a gold medal for her endeavour to learn a language, that thirty years ago was at death’s door, but now is thriving thanks to the generous support the people of Wales give to it every week, via the tax system.
And I'm sure it will be noted that Ms Hutt is learning the language while holding down a difficult and important job. What more can anyone ask of a hard working AM?
And for the life of me I cannot understand why there is so much antagonism to a language which is spoken by at least 10% of the population of Wales.
And to talk of the enormous cost of maintaining the language while Hospitals and social welfare programs are crying out for investment is the height of vulgarity.
Finally I truly believe that Jane Hutt, or any other aspirant to the position of first minister in Wales come to that, should be able to speak the language of the feather bedded minority.
WilliamFitz
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..... before I go,
Thomas Jefferson said When the Government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the Government, there is tyranny.
..... I have been looking for this liberty in Cardiff Bay, I discovered autocracy.
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"Thomas Jefferson said When the Government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the Government, there is tyranny"
Jefferson a Welsh speaker did you know Stoney?
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66
Steady on, old boy...
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Hey you!!! Yes you Mr. moderator. I'm a person, not a You. Come on now play the Englishman, and let's have a little bit of that famed BBC objectivity on this blog.
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Fitz - we are all Yousto yourself if you get my drift.
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How can we have autocracy? A democratic election gave us the current National Assembly - you may not like the result but there it is. I will not like the result of the next general election for the UK parliament, and I have doubts about how democratic it is as it uses the First Past The Post system, which is ill suited to modern multi party politics, however I will accept the results.
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Mapexx, Wales is a nation because the people of Wales believe it to be a nation. No other justification is needed. End of argument.
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66
To misquote the Odyssey:
"Wherefore let no man make show of unseemly deeds in this my Hutt, for now I have understanding to discern both good and evil, but in time past I was yet a child."
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66 and others!
Eureka! I have just got to the bottom of this matter, having come across a book entitled ‘Origin of the Masonic Degrees’ which (almost) has the following:
“For God said in Stability I will establish this my Hutt to stand for ever”
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message 74 &75
And as Christopher Marlow never wrote with regards to Jane Hutt: Is this one of the faces that launched the once mighty Labour Party into a soul destroying alliance with a nationalist Party?
And to paraphrase the resourceful Odysseus: And here is but a personal problem that my heart is pondering: why has my username been replaced with an impersonal pronoun while you and others have the dignity of a proper name? It is what I would have you and Dewi_H think on.
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76
All entries, when viewed by the blogee have their impersonal pronoun.
We are all oppressed equally.
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"why has my username been replaced with an impersonal pronoun while you and others have the dignity of a proper name?" - We all have Fitz - I'm "you" to me and you are "Fitmark2" to me. It is a little strange but nothinh personal.....
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Re #61 (mapexx) & #73 (Lyn_Thomas)
Thanks Lyn for correcting mapexx's dilusional notion that Wales isn't a nation.
For mapexx's benefit:-
nation /ˈneɪʃən/ –noun
1. a large body of people, associated with a particular territory, that is sufficiently conscious of its unity to seek or to possess a government peculiarly its own: The president spoke to the nation about the new tax.
2. the territory or country itself: the nations of Central America.
3. a member tribe of an American Indian confederation.
4. an aggregation of persons of the same ethnic family, often speaking the same language or cognate languages.
Origin:
1250–1300; ME = L nātiōn- (s. of nātiō) birth, tribe, equiv. to nāt(us) (ptp. of nāscī to be born) + -iōn- -ion
I should add that in the Latin notion 'natio' referring to 'something born' really pertained to a people, race or tribe, and doesn't refer to their territory or political constitution (which clearly would't be 'born' but created). This Latinate definition is the one which tends to carry in similarly derived words in Romance language speaking nations. It's also clear that Wales' ancient language and distinct history is what marks out its greatest distinction as a nation, from the imperial/state/militarily-contrived nationality that is 'Britishness.' (Which as Gwynfor Evans once asserted is "a political synonymn for Englishness which extends English culture over the Scots, Welsh and Irish.")
I'd also love to hear mapexx's explanation as to why if Wales isn't a nation, how the word 'Welsh' exists to describe our nationality?
On that theme, as long as people are attributed to a nation and aptly branded as being such, nationalism will exist, and will be rooted quite deeply in their psychology in so far as how people feel about that association, sharing pride in our achievements, and shame in our failures; it's natural, and at its best; familial and just as much a force for good and mutual advancement as the notion of the family itself.
It really suits me that mapexx denies his Welsh nationality, because God knows I wouldn't want to share any national or indeed familial relationship with such a perfidious and obnoxious character as him anyway!
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Re 79
'Britishness.' (Which as Gwynfor Evans once asserted is "a political synonymn for Englishness which extends English culture over the Scots, Welsh and Irish.")
Aww, isn't it a shame what those nasty English folk get up to? But, what can you do about it? Whilst searching for something else, I came across the Conwy Council web site. Of the population, it stated, 49% were not born in Conwy, and, that 47% were not born in Wales. I would imagine that most of that 47% are English folk, they're hardly going to vote for Llafur or Plaid. So, why don't you nats lie down quietly in darkened rooms, cool flannels on fevered brows and think of England?
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77 & 78
Personally I've never seen the use of "YOU" used on another BBC MB to replace the username. Of course we all use monikers, or nom de plumes, nick names but why when they know my username and my ISP address do they use an impersonal pronoun in place of my username? I can only assume that the moderators are trying to tell me something in a mealy mouthed way. Maybe not. An explanation would be welcome that's all.
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message 73....
And I am Superman because I believe I am. Ha! Ha! what a way to state your case.
Talk about childish. Cloud cuckoo land indeed.
Message 79.....
All the definitions given do NOT apply to Wales ior the Welsh.
Reasons.....
Wales was a name given, in antiquity to this REFION, because those who would have overun the region found it difficult to so do, and, as at that time a different langaueg was being used, those invaders, much as the Greeks did by calling foreign language speakers Barbarians, called those who repelled them, foreigners (Waleas).
Tribal nations was a convenient linguistic nicety, as those who came face to face with the native Americans, had no other way of describing them, simply because there was NO bounded territories in which they lived, in the main, they being nomadics who moved from place to place as the seasons demanded.
Wales has NEVER been a recognised nation in the true and correct political, or physical sense. IT is ONLY because it has defined oceanic boundaries to the south, north, and west, and an artificial geographical one to the east, that rise has been given to this fanciful notion it is a nation or country.
When it occasionally managed to be loosely 'unified', unity lasted maybe a few weeks, months, or a paltry few years, before one or other war lord fell out with his erstwhile ally, kicking the whole derangement off, again and again.
Coming down to the nitty gritty, Wales has NO ethnic or genetic difference to that of the rest of Britain, therefore it cannot be held to be in any way genetically different, hence no nation, tribal or otherwise can be claimed for Wales, or the 'Welsh', many of whom cannot trace their family background beyond a measly two, maybe three, generations, before hitting Irish, English, Scots, Italian, Polish etc. etc.
Those that do speak Cynmraeg, are far too dissolute, and disparate, to be collectivised for the purpose of your argument.
In fact your whole argument is flawed in every one of those numbered examples you have given..
Refernce back to the 'Latinate' roots cannot be applied to such a place as the Wales of today, it contains NO tribe, NO coherent language fluents, it IS politically unsound, it has NO ethnicity that differentiates it to any part of the UK, or mainland Europe. (recent ethnic immigrants excepted of course).
And it does NOT meet the Universally accepted criteria of a sustained 'nation'' country or state.
It is simply, a region of the UK, internationally recognised as such, and only that, as long as I, and others continue to argue OUR case, so it will remain.
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Wales is not a nation, it is a region of the UK, a principality if you wish. For over five hundred years the region has held a common legal identity with England. It also shares a common culture with England which is graphically evident in every town and city centre in England and Wales.
Welsh nationalists, as is only too obvious, are trying to create a nation but you are not there yet and hopefully never will be.
All you separatists display a sickening triumphalism on this topic based on a referendum result that was flawed from the start, and will remain flawed unless a further referendum is called on the profligate Assembly's continuation.
And the overweening pride that exudes from nationalist's posts is attracting the attention of the retributive deity, Nemesis and its name is Dave.
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Might want a read of John Davies's "A History of Wales" Map - might learn some things.
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[b]Re #80:-[/b]
I'd never dream of making such a ridiculous & racist assertion that English folk are 'nasty' - you said it Jack [i]and the moderators should note your offensive & groundless accusations of [b]racism[/b][/i], but I think you've hit on one of the core themes of Welsh nationalism; to protect the native cultural identity & character of Wales from the kind of ethnocidal, colonial attitude people like you, and indeed [i]occasional[/i] English settlers seem to have. [i]Wales IS NOT England, and is, through democratic processes, increasingly asserting its own politics - so long as people remember and respect that, I have no problem.[/i]
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[b]Re #82:-[/b]
Mapexx, you're delusional, and plainly suffering from a psychiatric denial as to the national status of Wales, and indeed the very definition of the word [i]nation.[/i]
I didn't really need to highlight the 'Latinate' roots of the word - it [b][i]IS[/i][/b] a Latin word, encorporated into English as well as the Romance languages. Wales wouldn't need to be unified either, to qualify as a nation; neither Germany nor Italy have been unified nations for vast tracts of their history, but they are nations, none the less because they have long been inhabited by Germanic and Italic people respectively, much as Wales is the home of the Welsh.
I never said Wales is a 'state' (although it has been for occasional periods in its history, you should remember that even England wasn't consolidated as a state until shortly prior to the Norman Invasion) - Although Wales IS a 'country' in the territorial sense, and had its territorial boundaries fixed since the 8th Century when King Offa built his 177 mile dyke.
I'd say even your disposable remarks on the ethnicity or genetics of the Welsh are fundamentally unqualified, but that kind of 'ethnic/genetic' nationalism is not an issue to any of the political agendas of Wales, given that Plaid Cymru's nationalism [b]IS PLAINLY OF THE [i]CIVIC[/i] RATHER THAN THE [i]ETHNIC[/i] VARIETY[/b][/i].
It's quite disturbing to see someone's whole understanding not only of Wales and its history but of the English language itself has been warped beyond recognition by political prejudice.
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Re 79
'Britishness.' (Which as Gwynfor Evans once asserted is "a political synonymn for Englishness which extends English culture over the Scots, Welsh and Irish."
Look, I don't need telling that English folk are not nasty, but some of the nicest folk on this planet. You're the one whinging against their activities.....but what can you do about it?
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message 86.....
Sorry old bean but it is yourself that is delusional.
Apart from minority who, perhaps, can speak the language, and who see themselves as some sort of 'special case' elite, therefore racially separate from the rest, you have nothing to go on.
There is no such a beast as the 'Welsh', other than they live in the region, by birth, or by immigration from elsewhere.
Those who live in this REGION, do so because that is where they are attached to, as stated, by birth, or by entering from wherever.
There is NO DNA differences between someone from Yorkshire, Belgium, Italy, and wherever else in Europe you care to set as an example.
But to retain the argument purely to the British mainland, why should you, or I for that matter, attempt to define ourselves as some sort of 'ethnic special case', over the same from Yorkshire, Northumberland Surrey, Sussex, Lancashire, or any other region of the UK?
What gives you the right to declare you are, as stated, something special.
You are not, and unless there is discovered some particular genetic abnormality that sets you apart from the rest of the population of these islands, then I am afraid you are attempting to place yourself on a pedestal that simply does not exist.
You have ONE thing ONLY, to make use of, and boy! don't you just love swinging it like a club, to beat opposition with,... it's the language.
That language confers absolutely nothing on you, no more than I could claim for, if I should be fluent in German, Chinese, or Inuit.
Yet you make attempt to give your argument credence based on the remnant of a language that has all but died the death, apart from it being rescued, at enormous expense, by the taxpaying public and commerce, of the whole of the UK.
Truthfully, the tax base iof the UK,, of whom far less than one percent can utilise that language, is being taken for a very dear ride.
Also, the truth is, that without the enforced subsidy of the language, if it was to be maintained by those that see a need for it, it would still be in serious decline, if not in fact, deceased, in all but name.
So please, do not give me the old rubbish about Wales being a nation, or whatever else you wish it to be, it IS simply a region of the UK, and will remain so, especially once the majority gets wind of what is actually in store for them.
However I don't really expect them to be so wised up prior to a general referndum, that asks whetgher they wish to be in separated state, not if the Assembly should get more powers.
Welsh history is so enmeshed with that of it's neighbours, it is a gross mistake to attempt to separate it from that enmeshment. You are playing for large stakes, with a petty amount of ante, and as said, when those to whom your gambling is serious danger, become aware of what is being done in their name, and WITHOUT their democratic permission, you can make a run for the hills, as that is about the only place, in common with those of 500 years ago, you will feel safe.
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Re #87 "...but what can you do about it?"
Vote Plaid Cymru, and assist organisations such as Cymuned or Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg to petition MPs/AMs from other parties in their concerns preserving and legally strengthening the Welsh identity of Wales - which I gladly do while urging others to do the same, and I'm happy to report it's clearly working. :o) ~ Cymru am Byth! ~
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Re #88
I don't even speak the language though - I'm merely a learner, but I'm hoping to be fluent within the next couple of years, hopefully before the next census so I can genuinely add to the statistics which aggrieve you so much. The chief difference between you and I is that RESPECT the language and its ancient and wonderful legacy, while you plainly don't.
I provided the dictionary definition of the word 'Nation' because Wales plainly qualifies it. If you insist on taking this matter further, raise it with the authors of that (and every other) dictionary; but don't be surprised if THEY also attempt to enlighten you as to your profound state of delusion.
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which I gladly do while urging others to do the same, and I'm happy to report it's clearly working. :o) ~ Cymru am Byth
Sorry, that might have worked in the past, but English speaking Brits are now seeing what the Welsh in Rhodri's version of Welsh Labour stands for. The power house of devolution has been devastated.....what d'you think is going to happen next? Will the Labour MPs who never wanted devolution in the first place, carry on indulging the Rhodri types?
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Re #91:-
Well let's just see, shall we? I said "it's working" because figures for Welsh language speakership are on an upward trend, and it looks like a second Welsh Language Act is on its way, as soon as the Welsh Language LCO can be secured for the Senedd - its passage is inevitable.
I suspect Welsh Labour may be more buoyant on its "clear red water" in Cardiff Bay than the mothership currently floundering in the Thames. Whatever you're envisioning, you'd be wrong to suppose the Welsh political map will turn blue for your convenience - Wales, thankfully, is a far more socialistic nation than England is - don't suppose Wales' socialists won't turn out to support Labour if they feel it may help avoid a new Tory supremacy in Westminster.
If events turn out so badly, and a new age of Tory rule ensues in England - this will only help secure a 'Yes' vote in the referendum for further powers to the Assembly (which Dafydd Wiggley recently called for) shortly to follow the general election. Nothing will send all of Wales recoiling in horror from the British Union like the Tory toffs reclaiming their 'birthright' in stuardship of their little island empire.
Welsh Labourites, Liberals & Nationalists will all see the true value of devolution, and shrewdly endorse it with an 'x' in the Yes-box when the Bullingdon Club claims England for their elitist interests.
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Sorry, 92,
your posts are always of a bleating hysterical, me me me kind of emotional wonts, never ever a coherent fact in sight. Do you honestly think that English speaking Brits of any political colour, are knowingly going to indulge a Welsh speaking, Rhodri type elite?....You must be........
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And remember significant sections of the Welsh Conservative Party will also be campaigning for a Yes vote in the upcoming referendum. And all parties in the National Assembly believe that powers over the Welsh language should reside in the National Assembly. Those that post here in opposition are in a clear minority in every opinion poll done on the subject.
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Re Message 94.
Here we go again, another unconditional believer, in the belief that Wales will be a Welsh speaking independent nation ruled by druids!!....Stop taking your druid prescribed medication, Lyn, it's giving you illusions of grandeur. It'll all end in tears, the tears of those who assumed themselves to be, a Welsh speaking elite!! Sorry, Rhodri, ol' bean.
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message 90.....
Oxford English Dictionary.
1: A distinct race or people characterized by common descent language or history, usually organised as a separate political state.
Does Wales meet any of those? No it does NOT.
The Welsh are NOT a distinct race, they are NOT characterized by common descent, they come from all over the place, many arriving from all parts of Europe with 'distinct' characterizations coming with them that do NOT comply with being Welsh.
The Welsh do NOT comply on the basis of language, most by a very large margin do NOT speak Cymraeg. Those that do are not confined to one area, they are, as I stated before, disparate.
The language is the hobby horse of a very, very small minority of the taxpaying base of the UK.
What is more, the claimed for 'high take up' of the language is nothing more than the reflection of the amount of pressure on schools to force the language, and once the 'trendies' begin to realise how it cannot be worth the effort, or of true value to their little darlings in those schools, you will begin to see it fall away again, probably more rapidly than it appears being taken up at the moment.
The same applies to history, the 'region' itself has a fairly common history, but that is NOT shared by the resident population of 2009, many of whom arrived from totally different historical backgrounds.
Therefore they hold no adherence to that territorial history.
Finally, Wales is NOT a separate political 'state'. It is simply a region of the UK that has been tolerated a small degree of autonomy, within strict guidelines.
These are, to all intents and purposes, temporary, and subject to certain factors, such as accreditation by the whole population of this region, at some indeterminate time in the future.
2: A family, kindred, clan. pro per the Tribal 'nations' of the north American Indians.
Wales does not comply.
The reason d'etre for your original dictionary definitions are not applicable reasons under present day terminology, the roots, be they Latin, ME, or otherwise merely are just that, roots. In themselves they cannot begin to define Wales in 2009, a region that has been subjected to totally different parameters than natalic preferences of an odd person here or there claiming some sort of false ethnicity from them.
One can seek definitions going back to the caveman, but they realistically mean absolutely nothing in the political cauldron of the modern age.
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94
Minority in every poll ........
Question - Why has there not been a referendum on more powers.
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On the subject of bilingualism, given the recent success of both yours and Vaughan Roderick's blog would it be possible for you both to occasionally swap places? That way the non-Welsh speakers could also enjoy and debate Vaughan's articles and the Welsh speakers could discuss Betsan's blog in their first language.
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Good idea christiancitizen.
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Mess 96: 'ALBEIT the Dominion, Principality and Country of Wales justly and righteously is, and ever hath been incorporated, annexed, united and subject to and under the Imperial Crown of this Realm, as a very Member and Joint of the same, wherefore the King's most Royal Majesty of meer Droit, and very Right, is very Head, King, Lord and Ruler;'
That's the first line of the first Act of Union between Wales and England 1536 - also if Wales were not regarded as a country what did England unite with?
Wales is also defined as a country on the official website of the Great Britain and Northern Ireland Prime Minister.
'1: A distinct race or people characterized by common descent language or history, usually organised as a separate political state.
Does Wales meet any of those? No it does NOT.'
Yes of course it does, most emphatically so - Welsh was the main language of Wales until a hundred years ago - so by your logic Wales was a country in 1909, but is not in 2009.
Common descent is obviously a factor - the Welsh have been seen by the other nations of the UK as distinct - from Chaucer to Shakespeare and onwards. The Welsh have more importantly seen themselves as distinct from the other nations of the UK hence Welsh soccer and rugby teams etc...
Racial distinctiveness (whatever this means and how it can be defined to an acceptable degree) is not an issue in Wales anymore than it is in England or the USA - it is not a primary defining quality of a nation in this instance.
Wales is most definitely a nation - might not be a nation-state yet, but it is most certainly a nation. Only the most obtuse would argue against this.
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message 100.....
I am obtuse. Perverse, and any other definitive you can throw.
You people with your 'Wales is a nation' rhetoric are so ridiculously out of touch with reality it would be quite funny iof it were not so sad a reflection on your process of thought.
Wales, as stated may have a history, going back some centuries, but that does not imply the same applies today.
And, as far as I, and others, are concerned TODAY is all that matters.
I care not one whit what was signed or otherwise 500 years ago, or a hundred, for that matter.
I live in the here and now, and the future of Wales relies on it's attachment to the UK as one of it's regions. Nothing more, nothing less.
As a 'nation' Wales stands no chance of maintaining it's population in the present standard of living.
It has little in the way of industrial base, or commercial, as far as it goes, to sustain itself, and the quicker you people realise that. the better for all concerned.
Talking about which, all, being the more rational and realistic majority of the residents of this region, have demonstrated time out of number, just how keen they are on the agenda set in Cardiff Bay, by simply ignoring what has been put on the table by the Assembly WAG since 1979.
They have shown no interest in devolution, apart from a bit of flag waving and a sticker on some of their car back windscreens, a few, a very few, follow the herd, and opt to send their kids to Ysgol Gymraeg, but that, as I said before, is a passing fancy and fad, and when reality kicks in, they too will cease to be sheep heading for the slaughter house.
Nation?... don't be so insanely 'patriotic', it does not wash, nor will it mean anything in the not too distant future, when other events overtake your silly agendas.
BY the way, don't argue with me over definitions, I responded to someone else's set of invalid parameters.
As stated Wales has NEVER been a country or nation, in the political sense, even before the dates you quoted, it was nothing more than a fairly small territory overrun by gangs of cutthroats, led by vicious tribal leaders, and men of personal physical power.
They ere not interested in Wales, or Cymru, all they wanted was the best that the people of the day, the peasantry,. could provide, be it food, land women or slaves.
So, if you don't mind, a little less of the 'Wales was a nation' sobs, etc, it is all academic anyway, we now live in the 21st century, where those sort of warring tribal matters no longer apply.
I will finish by telling you one exact and definitive truism, no matter how Wales is taken through this century, use the language as the weapon of preference if you wish, you will not alter the FACT that it is bureaucracy that you will kowtow to, not some idealised new Wales.
Those who think they have the powers, or hope for yet more of the same, will be your rulers, and the future looks rather dim for those with a yearning for what appears to be a new nation here to the left of England.
It's all about MONEY pal, and that is the one commodity that Wales is incapable of generating for itself.
As I, and others constantly tell you, we are not about to allow your sort to send us into a state of regional poverty, just so your idyll can be realised.
The choice of Rugby and Soccer to bolster your case, is a cry from the emotive side of your mentality, no more valid than saying a carp caught in the boating lake in Cwmbran is something for the Welsh to be proud of, those 'sports' are common currency across the world.
Imports from that place you people revile across the Dyke.
If you wish to be 'patriotic' on the playing field, then invent your own game that can be taken up internationally.
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Re #96 (mapexx):-
The online Oxford English Dictionary states;
nation
• noun a large body of people united by common descent, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular state or territory. — ORIGIN Latin, from nasci ‘be born’.
1. COMMON DESCENT. While it's true there are people here who bare no relation to the native stock, Wales plainly comprises a core population with deep ancestral roots in the region. While I dislike any focus on the shared genetics of Wales as a matter of any political relevance - there have been numerous relatively recent studies which identify distinct genetic Y-Chromosome haplogroups common in Wales (and Ireland, incidentally) which are not so commonly distributed in England. (For your reference that's the R1b genetic marker which 83-89% of Welsh men carry. The subcategories being investigated within that marker produce even more interesting results.) 35% of the Welsh population bare Welsh surnames, and a far greater percentage count those with Welsh surnames as ancestors. Much as I dislike drawing attention to this, the element of common descent in the Welsh nation is so blindingly obvious I see no harm in mentioning this - it doesn't make Wales any less welcoming to outsiders who know what they're entering into when they come here.
As for a self-declared 'Welsh ethnicity' there's no way of knowing this because no census to date has ever asked, although 14% of Wales rejected definition as 'White British' in the last census, and from their own initiative specified they were of 'Welsh' ethnicity instead.
I'd advise you take a look at the Wikipedia article on "Welsh People" but I promise you, you won't like it!
2. CULTURE & LANGUAGE. There is no more obvious cultural distinction between diferent peoples than the language they speak - it is what has distinguished the Brittonic peoples from the English since those English (Germanic) tribes first arrived in Britain in the 5th Century AD. Languages form cultural boundary-walls, only traversed by bilingualism.
I shouldn't need to illustrate this point but although only 1/5 of the population speaks Welsh today, it was 1/2 the population just 100 years ago, and 200 years ago, the 1/5 figure would have reflected the English-speakers of Wales. We have Census statistics re the Welsh language from 1891 to 2001:-
1891 CENSUS - 54.4% of Wales Speaks Welsh
1901 CENSUS - 49.9% of Wales Speaks Welsh = 4.5% Decrease
1911 CENSUS - 43.5% of Wales Speaks Welsh = 6.4% Decrease
1921 CENSUS - 37% of Wales Speaks Welsh = 6.5% Decrease
1931 CENSUS - 36.8% of Wales Speaks Welsh = 0.2% Decrease
1941 NO CENSUS - Due to WWII
1951 CENSUS - 28.9% of Wales Speaks Welsh = 7.9% Decrease
1961 CENSUS - 25.2% of Wales Speaks Welsh = 3.7% Decrease
1971 CENSUS - 20.9% of Wales Speaks Welsh = 4.3% Decrease
1981 CENSUS - 18.5% of Wales Speaks Welsh = 2.4% Decrease
1991 CENSUS - 18.7% of Wales Speaks Welsh = 0.2% Increase
2001 CENSUS - 20.5% of Wales Speaks Welsh = 1.8% Increase
It's a perfectly reasonable conclusion that Wales was propagandised to abandon its language by English-speaking sources of authority, because abandonment of the language greatly excedes the pace of English in-migration (while in many areas in the 19th Century, it's seen that the families of working class English in-migrants had learned Welsh within a generation of their arrival). If that decimation of Welsh (at points in the early 20th Century with a drop of 10% every 20 years) wasn't evidence of social engineering, I don't know what is!
Anyone who has roots in Wales predating 1850, most likely descends from Welsh i.e. Welsh-speaking stock - the probability of them NOT being Welsh speaking originally is decidedly marginal.
3. INHABITING A PARTICULAR state or TERRITORY. We've already covered that Wales was defined territorially by King Offa in the mid 8th Century AD. Wales was consolidated around about the same time as England, just prior to the Norman Invasion under Gruffudd ap Llewelyn ap Seisyllt. Had the democratic will of the Welsh nation ever been respected by the foreign tyrants who stole Wales' sovereignty - Wales would probably have consolidated as a nation-state long ago - the democratic will of the Welsh people may well do so in the near future.
CONCLUSION. WALES IS UNQUESTIONABLY A NATION.
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Re #101 (mapexx):-
Perhaps you don't have any respect for or even knowledge of your ancestors mapexx, but it's something many in the UK are looking into right now, with the rise of programmes like "So Who Do You Think You Are?" and the proliferation of genealogy websites and services online - people's ancestral history is just a few mouse clicks away.
Discovering my Welsh-speaking genealogy is one of the reasons I'm learning Welsh, but as I learn more about the language the more I begin to love it deeply in its own right. It's a thing of profound beauty and significance, as is the vast literary heritage written in it.
Politically, yes there are pressing economic questions Wales needs to address, Wales is a poor nation and needs to lift itself out of that poverty but I'm extremely grateful it's such a culturally rich nation - it would be infinitely poorer if it lost its identity, and the language is a major part of that.
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Mapexx. Thank you for getting the NATS and fellow travellers in such a tizzy over their desire to live in "mythical" wales a stand alone nation amongst other nations of the world. Your absolutely right in that the vast majority of welsh people are concerned about the NOW and the FUTURE,rather than some obscure and irrelevant past times in middle ages and earlier when wales(what ever it was)was without the benefit of the world power ENGLAND that sits very nicely next door. The explosion of the welsh population occured because of inward migration to exploit the natural resources in land etc and the vast majority of welsh people have great great grandparents from other than wales itself. The concern to me personally is that the "mickey mouse" devolution settlement (so far) has created a situation whereby my enemies i.e. Plaid Cymru are in Government because of the desires of King Rhodri and his friends is the "welsh" part of Labour to create an independant/welsh speaking wales which will then be as important as the island of sark.We must be mad to allow any seperatist politicians in wales to get their sticky hands on public money (the english must be even more mad to give it) and skew policies to create inward looking infrastructure (i.e.roads) rather than the UK government looking at such matters as a unified structure. The decision not to develop the M4 "by-pass" of Newport is but one example as compared to road works north-south wales which are not needed, due to traffic flows. It is important for PC to pursue these policies so as satisfy their little world views of wales. Keep up the good work Mappy and you aint alone,even if were not as accurate and thoughtful in dealing with the "enemy within" as the blessed Mrs. Thatcher stated many years ago.
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"And, as far as I, and others, are concerned TODAY is all that matters."
"even before the dates you quoted, it was nothing more than a fairly small territory overrun by gangs of cutthroats, led by vicious tribal leaders, and men of personal physical power."
Make your mind up Map - either you are interested in the history or you ain't.
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message 104...
I know I am not on my own, and I know the devo's and their fellow travellers are all upset, bless (or should that be damn) their little cotton socks, but do I care about their emotive nonsense?.... of course I don't.
Message 105...
Once again you are trying to argue for arguments sake.
Unless you could not comprehend, I was totally dismissive of what went on a half a millennia ago.IT being irrelevant to what is extant today, or what will be the name of the future game.
Just because I happen to know the historical background to your vision of Wales in the past, does not mean I am in any way interested, other than to use MY interpretation of it to counter your silly sort of arguments, where history is used in a futile attempt to prop up those arguments.
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Mess 101: 'I care not one whit what was signed or otherwise 500 years ago, or a hundred, for that matter.' - well you should because without the defining moment in the relationship between Wales and England all your arguments pertaining to nationality and definitions of what is or is not a country fall down.
You have demonstrated this well enough in your posting which is all sound and no substance - now you talk about the economic viability of a nation and a country, let me spell it out my little 'perverse' pal, defining a country or a nation has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with economic viability - look to the Oxford English Dictionary definition of nation or country - not a word about economics.
You whined|:
'As stated Wales has NEVER been a country or nation, in the political sense, even before the dates you quoted, it was nothing more than a fairly small territory overrun by gangs of cutthroats, led by vicious tribal leaders, and men of personal physical power"
- my point of reference is the Acts of Union 1536-42 which not only defined Wales but also England, before these dates I care not one whit for what happened.
As for soccer and rugby - do you think it fair that Wales is represented in the international arena for these sports - or do you think Yorkshire or Surrey should have the same basic rights for international competitions as Wales?
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"Just because I happen to know the historical background to your vision of Wales in the past,"
Along with your many talents you are now a mind reader. Do you think that I just just might know a little bit more about our history than someone who doesn't care?
I think the entire readership of Betsan's blog have now gotten the message that:
a) You think Wales isn't a nation and
b) But England, for some bizarre reason, is.
I wouldn't be at all bothered about your views if you didn't constantly have to restate them whatever the topic even when others try to guide you to areas where you might have something useful to contribute.
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82
What is a REFION?
Is it an area as defined by a referendum?
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message 107...
I, whined?
Play the white man pal, I leave whining strictly to those who would take Wales into no mans land.
I am well aware of what the dictionary defines, but that is why I deliberately stated I was referring to someone else accessing the dictionary.
I do not rely on the dictionary for MY definition of a nation, state or country, I rely simply on the viability in this modern world of any region claiming it can go it alone in the world.
When Wales was a territory which was comprised, more or less, of rural industry, that is sheep and cattle, grain crops, and bucolic skills in blacksmithing and carpentry, with the odd mason or ten thrown in, then you have my agreement that Wales was viable. It's economy matched it's populations demands.
That scenario no longer applies, we are in the hard world of international and global economy.
I do not subscribe to the rose tinted spectacle view of Wales. It has not existed for many decades, over a century in fact, and it can never be returned to such a rustic existence, not as long as the population has to be fed and housed, transported and educated, as it increases.
It is that steady increase that makes a mockery of any attempt to make it a nation as such. The 'nation' notion is nonsensical, and absurd.
As the population grows, so does the economic demands increase; blithely stating it is not an economic matter, is spitting into the wind, all that invokes is, you get your spit back in your face.
The good old days of the past are exactly that, past, and this region must accept what is in store for it, and that is not to say a nice little separated statehood, more a realistic stab at facing up to that hard cash based world, beyond the dreamscape envisaged by the mental woolly brained dreamers, wishing for that Cymru they are never ever going to get, even if all of Wales turned into fluent Cymraeg speakers.
Which again, is never ever going to happen.
To reiterate the matter of whining, as well as all sound and no substance, I refer you to your own pathetic effort in message 107.
A more obvious whine and whinge there never was.
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message 107....
I forgot to answer you sport question...
I see no reason why those places should not be representative of their own regions But, that said, maybe you should understand just why Wales, Scotland, and NI are recognised internationally..
We here in Britain created those sports, and set in motion the leagues and such that govern the playing of them.
For historical reasons therefore, we have been allowed, by agreement, to retain the regional units, England, Wales, Scotland, Ireland,. Note the 'by agreement' bit, currently there are pressures to stop this amongst many of our opposing national federations, as they sense a degree of imbalance. I am not entirely in disagreement with that pressure.
As far as I am concerned I see no real reason to retain such regional differentials, my thoughts on the matter would see Britain better served by a British national team in all sporting disciplines.
Within the UK itself, there is no reason why the original 'international' regime could not exist, after all that is how the whole matter started, and for what reason? simple really, travel between Britain's regions was direct, and relatively problem free, weather permitting, and as long as time was not of the essence.
How Vere now those days are done with and we have global almost instant travel available, the 'old' regime has past it's sell by date and we should be adult enough to recognise that FACT.
IN playing international sports, we play Malaysia, but we do not play Kuala Lumpur, we play India, but not individual regions of that great state, which is five times the size of Britain.
The same with France, even though their regions are just as valid as ours are.
We play against many states that are well over our petty territorial area, but we do not play their regions. Canada for instance, we do not play British Columbia, or Newfoundland, we play Canada.
The same with all other nations we play against, so why do we insist on having our way in the modern world.
As I said, personally I can support the demand to amalgamate the home regions into Team GB.
There is nothing at all stopping us, within the borders of the UK,. playing 'internationals', if that is what you wish to call them, amongst ourselves.
We give ourselves mighty airs in sport, and it's about time we curtailed our demands on the international sporting fraternity.
That is my Answer to your question.
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message 108...
Another peurile attempt to raise an argument.
If you know where I am coming from why bother to restate the fact?
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message 109...
NO, it is a trick to flush out the nit-picker types.
Does the name Returnee mean anything in that regard,
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111
It would be interesting to see how various people regard following 'national' teams in (for example) Rugby and Football where a nation-construct entitled 'Wales' plays other nation-constructs and before each game, 'national anthems' are played.
There is also an event called the Commonwealth Games' where 'nations' such as India and Wales compete.
Should such events be recognised?
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110
What is a "rose tinted spectacle"?
Is it a historical re-enactment with an uncritically nostalgic bias?
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Mess 110: Hit a nerve did I? Its very strange though that you use the OED as the arbitrator of all definitions in all matters apart from this instance where it does not suit you.
So this is what you then spit out:
"I do not rely on the dictionary for MY definition of a nation, state or country, I rely simply on the viability in this modern world of any region claiming it can go it alone in the world."
Yes quite - now its 'viability' that is the most important component of a nation or country (not state by the way)- who or what is the arbitrator of 'viability' then? What constitutes 'viability'? Is it population, resources, institutions - or simply what you say it is?
Won't wash pal, can't have it both ways.
If Wales is 'viable' as an international soccer or rugby playing nation what objections could you have to further use of the term 'nation' in regards to Wales?
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message 102....
Once again into the breach...
The 2001 census, also stated that the take up of Cymraeg in Mon/Gwent was in the order of 15%.
Which is extremely strange, for this reason.
I have related this before, but in light of you listing the 2001 census return as being 20.5%, I feel it necessary to repeat myself.
I have now lived and worked in this area for over 40 years. In all that time, I have met about five people who are Cymraeg speakers.
One an ex schoolteacher who originated in North Wales, another a civil servant from west Wales, a couple of others, local to this area, and a Pakistani guy in Newport who used to own a shop in Swansea. who taught himself Cymraeg whilst living there.The other two are my own grandchildren, who by the way have never used it since leaving Ysgol Gymraeg, and who tell me none of their peer group, with whom they are still in contact,ever have used their linguistic skill since leaving school. Never found the need to, but most importantly, DO NOT WISH TO.
Now, to fulfil the parameters of Cymraeg fluency in this area, I should know, or have had contact with, at least on in 8 of the population in this area.
Believe me that is just not so. I know no one in my immediate area that is fluent, I know of one or two in Pontypool that are, even less in Cwmbran and virtually none in Newport,
I have, quite shockingly, heard a couple speaking Cymraeg in Abergavenny some time ago, but it is a rarity, despite there being a fair number of rural persons in town on market days and at the weekends.
So, as the stated 20.5% is disputed, not only by myself, but also by many others, I have to tell you I do not accept the stated figure.
I also have to tell you that the local MP, Paul Murphy, on his web site, gives a more realistic 2 to 3% fluency for this area.
Take that across the whole of Wales, ignore the lying on the census forms, and you may well discover the overall figures given are nearer to less than ten percent, in truth.
As some famed person once said, "there are lies, damned lies, and statistics".
I suggest you keep that in mind before submitting any such figures to support your arguments in future.
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rhywun-arall #102 and many other posts;
Well Someone Else you are a person of strong opinions.
Opinions not shared by all who post here.
You got close to having a reasonable argument when you googled "Nation" and found it referred to a group of people sharing some common cultural values and back ground.
What you failed to recognise is that Wales is a region that is home to many Nations, each of those has their own identity and culture.
Now - was that failure down to emotional bias - or - a simple failure of intellectual logic?
Your comment on genetics shows a distinct misunderstanding of the science, and a worrying desire to link genetics to culture and language.
Are you really saying because people have the same genetic history, then they must accept your idea of; what language they should speak, what culture should guide their lives, how they should be governed and what politics they must adopt and support.
If so like my Father, and the Parents and Grandparents of many here in Wales did in the recent past to protect their freedoms,- I shall stand against you.
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111
A further question would be how to recognise Ireland both on and off the field of play. By the argurments put forward by some here, Ireland is nothing more than a region of Britain. Yet internationally (sorry, the nation word cropped up again) this does not appear to be the case. I am getting confused.
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message 115...
Would you really like me to pick you up on every little typo or missed letter.
You know full well what was intended, so don't be so bloody pedantic, no one is perfect, and usually those who attempt to be so, come drastically unstuck, sooner or later.
I suggest you stick to the general subject matter and leave out the nit picking, it simply makes you look like a frustrated school teacher.
Mind you, that is quite likely what you wish to have been, instead of the PhD you claim for.
Message 116....
IN most cases where I refer to the OED for definition, it is to settle the matter of a word that has been used inappropriately or incorrectly.
I do not take a dictionary definition of the status of a political argument for obvuiopus reasons. A dictionary cannot, by it's very inability to so do, define how a actual country or nation, is to be defined.
The meaning derived by the other person, from his dictionary, therefore, is only valid in dictionary terms. On the living ground, it does not meet with the requirments of actual nationhood.
A dictionary is a work of general reference, not a deriving source of facts.
That is why I sometimes refer to the OED, but never in the matter of defioning what is the prameters of nation or state.
You may be called Albert, and that you are male, but that does not say you are six foot tall, or black, or white, nor that you may be English or Bolivian. Or vote Tory or Communist. All it says is you are so named. And being named with a masculine moniker you meet certain minimal parameters.
That is the same with the dictionary. It states what are basic parameters of nation or state, not how a state or nation is composed or run.
That is up to the individual to interpret those existential parameters, which is what I have done.
So if you don't mind, please refrain from making irrelevant commentary on how I use my OED, they are subject to your own interpretation, not mine.
Regarding the sporting term, 'nation', I believe I have covered that in another message. However, in case you are still not informed...
I do not accept 'nation' in reference to home 'internationals'.
That was a terms of convenience when Britain was all but isolated by distance, times involved, and inadequate travelling facilities, in years gone by.
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message 119....
AS mentioned in my previous message, it does not do to pick people up for typos and spelling errors etc, as such nit picking has the habit of coming back to bite you in the rear end.
extract from your message...
....By the argurments put forward by some here...."
.
So what is it to be, constant nit picking, or avoid the self laid trap in future?
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Message 119...
Now you have me confused.
Why should Ireland not be recognised on the field of play?
I presume you refer to Eire rather than Ulster.
Taking matters to a politico/sporting level, I would be quite happy to see Ulster combined with Eire for sporting purposes if not indeed, as it seems mmy soon be the political case, into unity with it's southern neighbour.
If, and when, that eventuality comes about, then a Unified Ireland would be instantly recognised for what it would be. An internationally accepted sporting side/nation.
IF on the other hand you refer to Northern Ireland/Ulster,... well then, as long as it remains a region of the UK, then I maintain it provides team members for Team GB, as stated earlier.
I cannot see anything to argue over in that.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Wales is not a nation aye ?
Maybe I should claim a refund on the 100 or so rugby internationals I have watched Wales play over the last 30 years all,over the world !
Perhaps Mappex and his fellow nation-deniers should pop into Pontypoool rugby club and ask Graham Price and Bobby Windsor, proud men of Gwent, for their opinion ? Believe me mate, from Invercargill to Buenos Aires, people know Wales is a nation.
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Seriously Map why not start your own blog?
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message 126,...
Another one who cannot differentiate between two teams of muscle bound so called sportsmen, and the practicalities of life, that affect us all.
Before you start naming names, know one thing, I am personally acquainted with Bobby Windsor, and I can tell you, he would not be fazed one bit by what I say, because unlike you, he has the intellect to recognise the difference between what he did on the field, and what others are doing to our region in the political arena.
The strange thing is, as a regular traveller to France, one Wales greatest opponents in Rugby Union, whenever I am asked where I come from, if I say Wales, all I get is blank looks, that is, until I say 'Pay de Galles'.
So before you carry on with your aggrandisement of 'Wales', think hard on that one.
I am a denier of Wales being anything but a region of the UK. I have explained why Wales is 'only' a 'nation' in sporting terms, you either accept that or you don't, but don't come on here with a mixed up version of the true standing of the Wales that I live in.
For the purpose of sport, it has been a long standing habit to name this region a 'nation', however, politically it is not so, and nor will it ever become so, the way things are looking.
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message 125...
Yes, I do realise that, but when I gave you sound and practical reasons over some pronunciations and spellings on another matter, what did you do? You made an unnecessary argument, the base on which you provided your discourse was totally wrong, but you would not accept that, so who is the one making the boring and non constructive discussion on these threads?
There is no need to keep responding to my messages with such childish commentary, as in the message I respond to, it IS being read by others who I am certain can see what you are at.
If you wish to discuss or debate, do so without the scurrilous nonsense in message 125. Respond with a constructive, not destructive, commentary in other words.
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This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
And while I'm at it care to translate "Pay De Galles" for us Mapexx????
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This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
121
I always thought Oxford awarded a DPhil not a PhD, but as our blogger here lives in a paralell world where another truth applies, that evidently is no longer the case.
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128
And what do they call Belgium in France? Taking his arguement, Belgium is therefore not a country.
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124
But Ireland in constitutional terms and so on was just as much a part of Britain as Wales.
Yet matters appear to have changed.
So, what about a referrendum on abolishing the Wales rugby side?
How many in Wales will support this?
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128
Also, what do they call the Netherlands in French. So, in this wonderful parallel universe another nation has simply slipped away.
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message 133....
Try Wiki for PhD.
I have rarely seen 'DPhil' although it is used in some instances.
By the way, my niece holds a PhD (not a DPhil)in Paleantology. She was working on dynosaur remains in the Gobi desert up until recently, and now with a baby, is back home in Melbourne.
Somehow, that doctorate you lay claim for seems rather tenuous.
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Moderators,
Why does a mild bit of drollery on 'nit picking' (132 on 122) get censored while some pretty unpleasant language is allowed to remain?
I have been told (by the people involved) that they have a policy of demanding that posts they do not like get censored. I do not do this as I think it is unfair.
There appear to be double standards used when it comes to censorship.
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137
From the Oxford University website:
"Doctor of Philosophy (DPhil)
The DPhil is an advanced research degree awarded on the basis of a thesis and oral examination (assessment of other work is not taken into consideration). The DPhil is of a higher standing than the MSc by Research or the MLitt. Examiners must be satisfied that the thesis represents a significant and substantial piece of research, is conveyed in a lucid and scholarly manner and that the candidate has a good general knowledge of the field of their thesis."
Facts, dear boy. Facts.
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message 134 and others...
Once again you do not read with comprehension. What I said was, Wales is not as universally known, as was made out by that other blogger. As example I gave France, where it is not known, whereas it's French alternative, irrespective of it's meaning, is the accepted title for this region.
In answer to your further question re the status of Wales on the international scene in sport, message 135...
I don't suppose many in Wales would support the change, but that again is not the point I made, which was, the international federations have, for some time, been calling for the home 'nations' to be combined into Team GB.
Should their demands be met, the people of Wales will have no say in the matter. Referendums do not come into the equation.
Do make some attempt, however feeble, to keep up.
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message 131....
Should I dare to translate?
Maybe if I do I will then be given the same sort of digressive argument as in the soft or hard matter in the Cymraeg 'f' discussion on another thread.
But here goes... Pay de Galles,.. 'Country of the Welsh'
But to make clear what I said, I was responding to another who claimed the name of 'Wales' was universally known.
Not in France it ain't.
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Oxford Doctorate degree's
Doctor of Divinity (D.D.)
Doctor of Civil Law (D.C.L.)
Doctor of Medicine (D.M.)
Doctor of Letters (D.Litt.)
Doctor of Science (D.Sc.)
Doctor of Music (D.Mus.)
Bachelors in the higher faculties other than Medicine can proceed to a doctorate in the same faculty without further examination, on presentation of evidence of an important contribution to their subject, e.g., published work, research, etc. Doctorates in the higher faculties may also be awarded honoris causa, i.e., as honorary degrees. It is traditional for the Chancellor to be made a D.C.L. jure officio (by virtue of his office). Until the 19th century all bishops who had studied at Oxford were made D.D.s jure officio.
Doctor of Philosophy (D.Phil.)
The DPhil is a research degree, modelled on the German and American Ph. D., which was introduced in 1914. Rather atypically, Oxford was the first university in the UK to accept this innovation.
Doctor of Clinical Psychology (D.Clin. Psychol.)
Doctor of Engineering (Eng. D.)
The new degrees of D.Clin. Psychol. and Eng. D. are professional degrees in the American model. The Eng. D. is the only Oxford degree to use the Cambridge abbreviation format.
Note Oxford does not grant the PhD.
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142
Well said, sir!
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message 134...
Belgium became a 'country as recently as 1830, when the Dutch were forced out by the 'Belge' French speaking Walloon half of the population, with implied support of France.
For many years the Belgians had been subjected to the Royal House of Orange, which gave preference to the Flemish, Dutch speaking half of the region.
During a performance of the opera La Muette d' Portici, by Auber, part of the audience identified with the injustice being meted out to the Dumb Girl of the title, and erupted into the street demanding freedom from the House of Orange.
Knowing the French would probably give support, and realising the Netherlands could not face that, the Dutch troops retreated, and Belgium came into being, by international treaty.
Now, you may attempt to go for broke and make issue of that, be my guest.
But, if you cannot be constructive, or try to turn the discussion into another Cyraeg rant, then don't bother.
As with other messages, that have been nothing more tha personal attacks, I have my finger hovering over the complaints button. Be aware.
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141
Wiki:
"Le pays de Galles est l'une des six nations celtiques et fait partie du Royaume-Uni."
Pays not pay, by the way.
As you rightly say, a country and as Wiki correctly points out, a nation.
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message 142...
Thanks for the info Westy, I am not into higher education awards, or accreditation.
MY step Daughter also hold a degree of some sort, to do with business mkatters I beleive, she is now climbnmg the promotion ladder in the MOD, and at thirty two after three years is earning a half as much again,as my wife, who is a manager in the NHS, with over twenty yeras in the job.
My niece(in law, married to my nephew) is Australian, and gained her PhD in Melbourne.
I am not sure what her current level of achievnment is, but she has become a 'professor laureate' whatever tha means, I shall have to find out next time we are in contact.
She is also, now a world recognised authority in her discipline.
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144
Is 'Cyraeg' a Welsh-speaking curry?
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137 and 146 contradict each other.
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message 147...
Is that some sort of Cymraeg Humour? or are you, again, making issue of typo's. Thereby cluttering up the web page with nonsense.
Message 148...
Rather than complain about the total waste of a good message space, where is the contradiction?
As stated I have little interest in the award systems of higher education. It was in 1962 I gained my own Bsc in Trade Unions studies and man management. Since that time I have been through the mill on all branches of construction, including the managment of Two airport maintenance crews in Saudi Arabia, with more than two hunderd artisans under my control, in many construction and maintenance disciplilnes, and from many countries.
Control on a daily basis, from electrical power generation, in one contract from a 12 megawatt station, through water treatment, power distribution, masonry, sewage, and whatever else it takes to run a class 2 international airport.
All with my fully time served carpentry aprenticship, and my barely scraped through degree.
I can assure you of one certain fact, prior to my successful 2 x 2 yr contracts, others with very good degrees in various engineering and science disciplines were employed, but found to be less than useless at ground level. Hence my taking on the psots they vacated, once their capabilities were found wanting.
Maybe there is a lot of truth in saying what is good on paper is not necessarily good when it comes to putting the 'paper knowledge' to the test of actually working.
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149
First I am accused of not having a 'doc' and when I and WW point out that a DPhil is what an Oxonion gets, the next post claims a limited knowledge of doctoral degrees. Therein lies the contradiction.
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151
Accuracy is of the essence here and a full appreciation of the English language needs to be employed.
Humour is likewise being employed to point out errors and contradictions.
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Mapex #149
A BSc in Trade Unions studies and man management
Well done -
I am intensely proud of my first Degree, a four year full time course, Bachelor of Arts in Engineering science with Advanced Math.
Honours were not awarded!!!
Quirky isn't it a BA for a Pure Science and Math degree.
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152
Something tells me those four years were great fun, perhaps with a Distinction for the 'applied' side.
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149
What is a "typo's"?
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message 152,,
Mine was through the joiners union, via Ruskin college, correspondence course, apart from a few weekend and holiday stopovers in Oxford, for face to face tutoring.
Two years it took me, not the very best of times, as I soon found out when having to work six days a week, and only having Sundays and late nights to complete the tasks set by the tutors.
Fortunately the union provided most of the funding through education grants.
Wife and three kids almost ruined what award I did ultimately managed to get.
It was so long ago, and I have moved a few times since then all my documents have disappeared over the years. I am told I can obtain copies, but at 73, why would I bother? I no longer need them.
Fortunately employers accepted my references, so working in Saudi Arabia was no problem, as in interview, I was able to provide enough written and oral evidence to substantiate my credentials.
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154 Returnee - Correct Applied not Advanced
Great fun !!! mind blowing so many new ideas and exciting avenues.
The distinction was in Science, I became fascinated with energy transforms.
As you know thermodynamics allows you to solve virtually any scientific question.
In Politics you follow the money - in science the energy!!
Should have made a career out of full time research, I would have enjoyed the Academic lifestyle.
Nearly blew it in my first year - Social life amazing - Academic (others subjects) too exciting not to explore.
My tutor got me back on track - and kept me there.
Thank you Minky
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message 150...
OK! I take the point, maybe it was a bit of a blunder, I honestly did not know that Oxford swims against the flow in calling their degree DPhil.
However as stated, I am only familiar with family members degree titles.
None of which came down from Oxford.
My own excepted, but the previous message clarifies that.
So far....
Three daughters with degrees,
One in nursing, Psychiatric, also her husband. Same degree from some Uni in the Midlands.
One with a degree in child psychology, from the OU
the other with a degree is something I don't recall. Again the OU.
Step daughter, degree in Business studies, Coventry Uni.
Her husband the same degree also Coventry.
Step son, a fully accredited international chef. His wife a degree in hospitality, not known by me where she gained that. Possibly Cheltenham.
Nephew in Australia, degree in Teaching music, I think, his wife as stated, in paleantology.
Niece in NZ, degree in sports education, Loughborough College, also a first in Japanese. Five years teaching English in Kyoto, Japan (was also a trainer for the English hockey team, so I am told)
Her husband South African, degree in something or other, I am not sure what, but it could be teaching.
Myself Degree in Trades unions studies, 1962, Ruskin Oxford; also a HNC in construction, Birkenhead Tech 1961.
I think there is an element of educational aptitude running through my family. Agreed?
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message 154...
My! for someone with a declared DPhil, you seem awful thick on occasion.
Typo's = typographical errors.
By the way, it was 'typo's not 'a typo's'.
Please be as accurate as you wish others to be......(message 151),or hold your peace, for fear of tripping yourself up.
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"I think there is an element of educational aptitude running through my family. Agreed?"
I hope your offspring etc. have a more rigorous approach to logical thought and argument construction than yourself.
(P.S BA Finance , MBA, ACMA + Advanced & Post Advanced City and Guilds in Stainless Sreel Making and Horizontal Continuous Casting (from Panteg Mapexx)
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157
No problems here! Respect the Ruskin - anybody who takes on that committment believes in education for what it offers rather than as an excuse for some fun.
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message 157 PS....
Other niece I nearly forgot, as she has just given birth, degree, with honours, in Forensic Medicine, Huddersfield. Soon to be working in police science labs.
Her brother, good A levels, but now is a junior director in his fathers business in Manchester.
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158
Sorry but it is pedantry time:
Typo / Typos
Not typo's
The latter is known as a grocer's apostrophe, or to be doubly pedantic, a greengrocer's apostrophe.
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Not that I'm at all bothered but to avoid another interminable bout of nonsense it's "typos" without a '.
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message 162...
Does the phrase 'go boil your cabbage' mean anything?
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message 159....
Unlike you, who I presume is a typical 'classroom' lawyer, I come from a rather basic industry, one,where to dither about being to pedantic, loses not only job time, but also possibly the job itself.
In other words, I tend to think as my finger hits the keyboard. Otherwise known as thinking on the hoof. A critical utility in the construction field.
On the hoof on here, means speed of writing, as well as rapidity of thought, no time for your sort of ambulatory slow motion thinking.
If I tried doing it the way you seem to think I should, which is not your right to comment on, I am afraid you may get more than you bargain for.
We all have our respective methods of putting ink on paper, or digits on the screen, you stick to yours, I'll stick to mine.
If you do not like it, or cannot take it, the answer is on the front of your PC, it's called the off switch.
Besides that, although you gained what appears to be a good result from your stint in Panteg, unless you bugger off to the far east or maybe Sweden, it hasn't been worth much now, has it.
Mind you, I hear Llanwern is opening up a limited section again, maybe there's a slot down there for you.
But well done anyway. As I said before, any bit of paper, with 'pass' on it, has to be worth something when job seeking these days.
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message 162.... again...
I am unsure about 'typos', by disallowing the apostrophe, you turn it into a 'proper' word, singular.
I feel as 'typo's' it refers to it being used plurally. i.e. more than one.
Not that I am really worried, but I shall have to have words with 'her in work' she is the English grammar brain box around here.
The only other word that I can recall resembling your take on the word, is ...'kudos'... which is an import, not a slang expression, which is the way we use 'typo', a shortened version of typographic/al, first recorded use 1816.
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message 162, anmd 163...
I now recognise the syndrome, you ARE Siamese twins. Joined in the brains, no doubt about it.
Time for a separation I think.
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163
No.
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PS: in reference to 163...
If you are 'not bothered', why then stick your oar in?
Death wish perhaps?
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164
Does one boil one's cabbage with a greengrocer's apostrophe by any chance?
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Mapexx, my old mate, all fair minded posters notice how impassioned you are about the fate of our country., And, you write accordingly, with passion, verve and a remarkable speed. But sorry mate, you will never ever catch Returnee out, he's guaranteed himself a typo free invincibility. He just reads your posts, picks out a typo or two, then replies in what he thinks, is a pithy, sarcastic 'one' liner.
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message 170...
Depends on the amount of 'ones' seasoning I suppose. Were there to be more than one, of course
But was that a 'greengrocers' apostrophe I spotted?
Surely not you dropping the same clanger? Or were you operating in the plural?
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message 171,...
I spotted that some time ago, and remarked on it.
But some folk will never accept they are on a hiding to nothing,
You see, and this is the secret plan...so Shhhh!
While they are attacking moi, they cannot do the same, at least, not very successfully, to others, such as yourself.
A technique I developed some years ago, to protect my neighbours when
the Mormons were banging on doors.
Being a total atheist, and a crafty sod, I invited them in, and kept them arguing for an hour or so, until they got fed up, and ran for cover.
Result, no more Mormons for a few months.
It works on here too, the silly brigade have been had for some time, but they are learning....very slowly, I must admit.
Keep on posting Jack, we know where we wish to be, and it's not in cloud cuckoo land with the la la mob.
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http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/tm_objectid=17734421&method=full&siteid=50082&headline=why-the-people-of-shrewsbury-are--more-welsh--than-cardiff-name_page.html
How about a truce on typos, bad grammar and spelling? Me, I do not pretend to be anything other than a construction worker from dear old Newport.
What about debating the east west political split appearing in Wales? This Western Mail article, actually proves the differences between the South and East of Wales, and, the Welsh speaking heartlands of the North West.
Seriously, would you nationalists settle for an independent Anglesey?
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Mapexx - why not try and learn something useful before you post? Me,I would love to learn something useful from you. How about having a think for an hour or so before you post anything? You could try and construct your posts with some thought? Like avoiding wasting everybody else's time? Try it?
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I am loathe to contribute to the debate, having started off with 'Outraged of Lower Cwm Scwt' complaining that a government minister has had the temerity to learn the language of a proportion of her constituents, and then degenrated into a "Wales is a Nation" "Wales is not a Nation" shouting Match.
But the article mentioned by Jack Wilkinson cannot go un-challenged. For a start, I wonder how London would come out in a survey of English Surnames. Or Paris, Berlin, Madrid in a survey of their respective 'national' surnames. Its a function of University City / Capital City / Historical centre of immigrnat workers... Hardly an indication of 'hpw x-ish' a palce is.
But more to the point, Armand Watts makes a nonsense of the whole story. For a start, many of the non-Welsh names are of recently arrived commuters (I take it that you consider colonisation to be a valid imperial practice, Jack?), but more significantly, as he explains, he has no Welsh surnam, he has no Welsh first name, but he is Welsh through and through.
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Mentioning the la la mob, I'm just totally amazed, that British Labour MPs, can even be in the same room as druidic idiots who refer to themselves as, Irish-Welsh Celts?
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I feel as 'typo's' it refers to it being used plurally. i.e. more than one
Please God in heaven Map - plural without the "'" it is "Typos" Just blasted listen will you.
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(I take it that you consider colonisation to be a valid imperial practice, Jack?), but more significantly, as he explains, he has no Welsh surnam, he has no Welsh first name, but he is Welsh through and through.
With all due respect, what the Hell are you whittering about?
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Message 178....
Just like you 'listened' over the hard and soft 'f' is it?
Your pathetic plea to a non existent deity places you exactly where you are. A believer in fairies and goblins, with no more right to challenge my English use, be it bad good or indifferent than the Pope has.
No wonder you cannot understand the subtle difference between the Cymraeg 'F' and the English 'V'. Far too busy picking up my typographical errors to concentrate on studying the correct pronunciation of letters in your supposed mother tongue.
Behave yourself and cease looking for arguments with a master of the art.
As you will insist in taking the debate away from the more sensible subjects, in order to suit your antipathy to my messages, I will stop responding further, unless you stick to the matter in hand, which is NOT typo's, or typos, whatever.
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message 176....
Colonisation? are you for real? Wales is in integral part of the UK, and as such, each and every person, no matter where they come from, has the right to live in this region. Just as reciprocally speaking do the people of Wales have the right to live elsewhere.
This, under present European membership, gives the same right to anyone, from any of the 27 current members of the EU, reciprocated, as stated, to those from Wales.
It is OK for many Welsh to buy a place in France, Spain, Italy, Germany wherever, but not so for anyone from out of this region, to do the same, and move here.
Go on now, tell me the punch line to this joke.
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172
Wrong, as usual.
Your error compounds your other errors, as usual.
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171
JW, this is a slip fropm your usually solid postings. I look forward to usual service being resumed.
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180
A misplaced comma in the second paragraph spoils the intended meaning of this remark.
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174
Agree re truce, as long as all agree with the principle that the greengrocer's apostrophe is something that ought to be avoided.
The next point is well worth pondering, albeit as something that dates back to Cymru Fydd days.
Another thread would be to look at "Cymru yn 2050: Golwg o'r Dyfodol / Wales in 2050: a View from the Future" a lecture given at the Bala Eisteddfod by Morgan Parry and just published by the IWA. Moirgan Parry takes a stroll to 2050 through the eyes of his nine year old son to consider how Wales could and should respond to climate change. I do not agree with all he says, but it is useful starting point in looking at national policy responses to global issues and how we can get ahead of the game if we really want to.
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167
Oh dear.
By the way, 'and' is spelt 'and', not 'anmd'.
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message 183....
By the way... 'from' is spelt 'from', not 'fropm'
...." JW, this is a slip fropm your usually solid postings. I look forward to usual service being resumed....."
and again...."...but it is useful starting point...."
message 185...
By the way...again...
'Morgan' is spelt 'Morgan' not 'Miorgan',....
... of that I am certain, considering it is my own name.
"....published by the IWA. Moirgan Parry takes a stroll to 2050 through the eyes of his nine ...."
Plus in the third paragraph, missing comma's, or shopuld that be commas?
It doesn't do to be too smart arsed, does it?
Would you like me to trawl back over the whole blog, an example being in message 135...referrendum...for other errors in your messages?.....Thought not, so, either cease this nonsense, or sod off somewhere else, and annoy others for a change.
referrendum. double rr?
fropm. misplaced p?
is useful starting point. where's the 'a'?
Miorgan. a rose by any other name, eh?
The list goes on and on.
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187
Good boy, well done.
By the way:
"Plus in the third paragraph, missing comma's, or shopuld that be commas?"
Let's have a sweepstake on the number of errors in this line...
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Is it easier to write of the greengrocer's apostrophe than issues that matter, to write of typing errors rather than what matters in Wales.
The word pathetic comes to mind ...........
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messaghe 187...
Can't you get it into you head, I am not in the slightest interested in grammatical, or punctuation errors.
You and your pal Dewi must be joined all the way down, as well as the brain, you both have a single track mentality.
Picking silly faults is of no concern to the blog, so why not stick with the subject matter of whatever is being discussed, instead of, as I said earlier, bloody childiish nit picking?
Or are you bereft of the ability to take on board sensible things to debate?
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189
As is personal abuse
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189 and 190
Post 185 ignored as with all other attempts to introduce facts and constructive dialogue.
Drollery was all that remained.
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"You and your pal Dewi must be joined all the way down, as well as the brain, you both have a single track mentality"
Single track mentality ehhh. this from the ambivalent obsessive - I have no interest at all in your typos - it's just the way on any subject when you are corrected you just keep on digging in that appalling repetative verbose style that you possess - and when you promise not to respond why don't you try and keep to it?
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"Just like you 'listened' over the hard and soft 'f' is it?"
You really still think you were right about that!!! Unbelievable.
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#192
It wasn't ignored, it is irrelevant, navel gazing, plus it requires a purchase from the New Autocrats.
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193
Ah, the megaphone again.
No debate, no dialogue, just fear of the new reality.
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Personally, I think that Climate Change is very relevant to our lives, and even more so for our children and even more so again for our grandchildren.
What should Wales be considering in terms of policy options and policy development? How can we encourage clean technologies? What are our geographic strengths and weaknesses? How can we build on the former and mitigate the latter?
These will define the nation in the century to come.
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message 194....
I KNOW I am, you make out I am wrong, let us see you prove me wrong.
But be very, very, careful of what you say and do, as I have enough people reading this blog, and these messages, to prove me correct, even though they are quiet at present.
The only one who supported you was lying through his teeth, because had he really been a Cymraeg speaker he would have backed ME up, but no, he instantly disappeared when challenged, did he not?
Message 197....
When Wales gets that border confirmed, and erects a wall ten miles high around the place, then we can sit back in the absolute and confident knowledge that Wales will be safe from climate change.
A string of air cons all along the wall will keep us cool in summer, and all our coal fires will keep us warm, if rather smoked up, in winter, so I would not worry overmuch about the matter if I were you.
Which of course I ain't, and unless my predicted longevity fails to take me to 110 years old, then I am not worried about it anyway.
I would concentrate on keeping those pesky English, and the rest, out, because if you do get climate change, to any remarkable degree, you can bet those furriners will be heading for all our nice spots to emigrate to.
The need for the strict border becomes ever more essential, as I see it.
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Returnee #197
Climate change - without getting into the debate about why or if.
There is a body of opinion that believes if we reduce CO2 and other man made greenhouse gas emissions we can delay or even stop Climate Change.
Perspective is important here;
If the UK shut down today - no more emissions of any sort.
Within 1 month the growth in emissions from China would replaced what we stopped pumping into the atmosphere.
Include India, South America and the rest of the Pacific rim and the numbers are frightening.
What we do in the UK is simply window dressing. Like the Stern report it is political spin, a revenue earner and a sop to satisfy activists and those who Al Gore has convinced.
However developing technologies that can be exported world wide is where we can have an impact.
Remember what the Assembly did with wind and tidal - imported technology instead of supporting our Welsh Engineers, Entrepreneurs and Universities.
In the UK, population growth means even if each individual reduces their personal footprint by 50% by 2025 we will still not meet the Government targets.
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179 Jack W - What I am whittering on about is the article which you draw our attention to, which claims that the South East is less Welsh than other parts of Wales. The quote at the end, bearing in mind the premise of the story, makes a total nonsense of the conclusions.
181 Mappex. Colonisation, in the eyes of international law, is not neccessarily one nation state colonising another. Some of the most pernicious cases involve the weakening and irradication of one culture or language grooup by another within the same state.
The moving of large numbers of non-Welsh speakers to predominantly Welsh speaking areas, and *their refusal to learn the language in order to contribute to the ongoing culture of the area* is a definite act of colonisation in international law. The reported 49% of the population of Conwy who were born ourtside Wales, and their effect on any vote re devolution / home rule / independence etc is rather more woolly, and open to argument far more knowledgable of the subtlties of law than mine.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
"I KNOW I am, you make out I am wrong, let us see you prove me wrong."
Just try saying v and f - v is softer than f - it's quite easy.
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"But be very, very, careful of what you say and do, as I have enough people reading this blog, and these messages, to prove me correct, even though they are quiet at present."
"even though they are quiet at present." - I wonder why.
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199
I strongly believe in supporting our engineers and researchers here.
Technologies and techniques to export, not to import. Beyond the grand statements and economists, there is a practical job to do and we can and indeed must do it.
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203
Is he Iain Duncan 'quiet man' Smith's Siamese twin by any chance?
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198
Interestingly, the lecture points to foreign in-migration as one of the keys towards Welsh becoming a majority language again. Unlike the English, most people from culturally advanced countries find learning a new language do-able and are willing and able to accept a new country for what it is, rather than trying to recreate their old place there. The doors will be open to the open minded.
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202
Of course you are right on the 'f' and 'v' it is the case and (almost) everybody accepts that.
We live in a fact based world:
The earth is a sphereoid
The moon is not made of cheese
The majority of people in Wales support devolution
The majority of people in Wales support its extension
The majority of people in Wales are sympathetic towards Welsh
'F' and 'v' have their different phonetic characteristics
Let's get on with the real world!
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message 200...
Colonisation is the DELIBERATE action of an exotic power, to submerge or suppress an indigenous population, or acquire territorial supremacy by means of again, deliberately flooding an area with emigrants.
The USA being the prime example, with Australia, and NZ, close behind.
No such deliberation has been invoked in the movement of exterior persons from one side of the dyke to the other, transmission, in case you have not noticed it, has been in both directions, so should we say that the Welsh/Cymro have attempted 'colonisation' of England, and beyond, by human osmosis?
To my personal knowledge, the only place where this has been practiced in relatively modern times in the British Isles, is the expatriation of Scots to northern Ireland.
Even that is not 'true' colonisation, more an act of creating a foothold to prevent Roman Catholicism to be exported to out northern neighbour Scotland, a political act, not necessarily 'colonisation' in the strictest sense of the word.
I think you rely far too much on a strict dictionary definition to support an untenable theory.
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message 203 and previous...
The answer is easy to see, they do not wish to see mapexx supported which would be an anathema to their nationalistic sensitivities, but there are others yet to comment, as I am certain they will when the mood takes them.
In reference to that which you are too stubborn to understand.
Try Victor. the V is 'hard'
Now try Fiction, the F is soft, upon forming the word the 'f' is partially sibilant. Upon pronunciation it is, if correctly uttered, followed by a slight hiss passing across the lower lip.
The V is almost guttural, emanating from the rear of the mouth when pronounced.
It produces a rolling generation or vibration on the upper pallet behind the front top incisors, as the sound is transmitted across the tongue.
Which makes the f 'soft' and the v 'hard'.
If you still fail to understand, then you cannot understand the language you claim to be able to speak.
That is my final word to you on the matter.
Unless anyone wishes to add to this argument, in support or against, that will be all on the matter, upon which I will further comment as necessary and appropriate..
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The stupidity of the notion that British people migrate to other regions of the British Isles expressed as colonisation is pathetic in the extreme.
You do not colonise yourself.
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211
Unfortunately for this posting, this is a widely accepted and understood demographic process.
Of course this - as with many phenomena - can be denied, but only by applying a set of assumptions which are at variance with our realities.
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212
Your realities ...... a serious deviation from what is considered to be orthodox or normal.
Today David Rowland said .....
"We need fresh ideas, national renewal and above all a government that sets the people free. I feel strongly that the Conservatives under the leadership of Dsavid Cameron are the party that will deliver that. They are the best hope for this country's future."
He then gave the Conservative Party 1 million pounds to get the ball rolling, Wales is part of this brave new future .....
..... Plaid offer communism of the last century, a perverse perspective.
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213
Support or opposition to accepting demographic realities has nothing to do with support for one political party or another. It is difficult to debate when facts are ignored.
Personally, I am perfectly relaxed about the Bullingdon Boys running the show.
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Re 214
"Personally, I am perfectly relaxed about the Bullingdon Boys running the show."
That's where we disagree! I've told Stonemason many times that even in the case of this ridiculous state, I still believe in the idea of a meritocracy. Thuggish toffs are not my idea of good government.
The fact that these hooligans are certain to move the process of devolution on even further, makes their grasp of power no less attractive.
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#215 David Rowland and family achieved their position on merit and hard work .....
I commend DR's words to you .....
"We need fresh ideas, national renewal and above all a government that sets the people free. I feel strongly that the Conservatives under the leadership of David Cameron are the party that will deliver that. They are the best hope for this country's future."
..... he was speaking of the whole country, the United Kingdom.
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Re 215
I should, of course have said - 'no more attractive'. That last glass of Rose!! Thank you Stonemason for not pointing it out.
I don't really see why I should care what DR thinks, or does with his money. But I suppose it's good to be in with the in-gang. The rich and business people often like to position themselves strategically.
However, my point was about the thuggish Bullingdon toffs.
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