No show
A few days ago I wrote a blog entry, telling you I was off to Pembrokeshire with my bucket and spade, swapping the chamber for a terrace, the office for the beach.
Just like the blazing hot sunshine they promised us, it was scheduled to appear over the weekend. Neither showed up. ("Ble, ble, ble, ble, ble'r aeth yr haul ..?")
Still my mac and brolly and I are having a great time and the next generation has learned a new motto: no such thing as bad weather, just the wrong clothes.
Thank goodness for a kind landlady who's online and a coastline that makes me weak at the knees.
A few weeks' holiday then it'll be back to the blogging - refreshed, fitter ... wetter!
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Have a very well-deserved holiday, Betsan!
On a more political point, couldn't WAG have appointed a more independent economist to head the Commission on the funding formula for Wales. I see that the Chair of this group is a trustee of the propaganda wing of the Welsh Assembly, the Institute of Welsh Affairs:
http://www.iwa.org.uk/publications/pdfs/holtham_talk.pdf
In this presentation, he suggests that no 'reputable expert' would argue that Wales needs even more AMs to leech off the hard-working tax-payer.
No doubt over the next few months we'll be hearing how Wales desperately needs borrowing and tax-raising powers.
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Betsan, try France next time.
Noah has a villa of sorts there, and I would too, if her indoors would go along with it.( I am working on her all the time).
Anyway, there is so much to see and do, you wouldn't have time to put your brolly up.
And, of interest to a modern Welsh woman, in every large town, a great shopping experience to be had.
See you over there sometime ...maybe?
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Have a lovely time Betsan and bring us all back a stick of rock! :-)
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With a bit more global warming, Pembrokeshire would be one of the top toursit destination in the world - just imagine all of the package holidays arriving at Carew airport.....on second thought...
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Ah that sweet refreshing rain a vital ingredient in the creation of
'Gods Own' but the west walian remedy on such days is to cwtch up with a nice book and relaxeeeeeeeeeeeeeez-vous.Let the world go by.You've
been to long in the city Betsan fach.
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Have a good time in little england beyond wales! (lol that's sure to enrage a few 3 eyed nationalists :)
Speaking of Pembs... I was amused to see Adrian Masters on Dragon's eye last week in the caravan site at Nolton Haven for a very tentative 2 minute long skit relating to the fact that Rhoddri Morgan would "probably" be spending some of his extensive summer break in "west wales". Not quite sure why that warranted the Dragon's eye crew going all the way up to St Bride's bay on a clearly very sunny day... surely BBC Wales have stock footage of a Pembrokeshire beach and caravan site! No doubt they all had a few nice pints in the Mariners beer garden and a made an evening of it ;)
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Where did you say you were staying Betsan? Has Cardiffian 2008 blown
your cover?
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Nice place Pembrokeshire but to be avoided if the whole of welsh political/media classes are holidaying there!!. Do they realise that "travel" broadens the mind,however they can all meet in their incestuous little and pretty insignificant circles and talk about LCO's. At least Gordon Brown went to exclusive resorts in America and met real "movers and shakers",who influence the world.
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8 Are you suggesting a political 'boot camp' where politico's are
reprogrammed by El Presido while schools out? ' You Vill support
Devolution' You Vill support full law making powers'You vill pay
15p a carrier bag'We vill give you the licence revenue if you
promote Devo''You vill not pee in the sea see'
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On the contrary message no. 8.... South Pembs is like kryptonite to the Welsh nationalists :)
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Re 10
On the contrary, South Pembrokeshire is a wonderful part of Wales. I love it!
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Betsan:
Happy Holidays and your deserve it very much....
~Dennis Junior~
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No sooner than I mention schools out FiFi's back on line.Shouldn't you be in Llangranog being reprogrammed?
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Of course South Pembs elects two of Plaid Cymru's councilors in Pembrokeshire... so maybe not such a hostile place for Plaid.
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In the absence of a subject topic for this blog post, anyone want to discuss anything new - like the train electification on the GWR?
While this is clearly good news for South Wales, I cant help thinking that this has only been announced in the wake of Labour's recent election defeat and would have been implemneted years ago if there had been some votes to be won or lost....
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The announcement of rail electrification between Paddington and Swansea is to be welcomed. However, its far too late and will take eight years! There has been no investment in Wales' rail network since Victorian times.
The UK trails Macedonia in the European rail electrification league, which means that as Wales has no electrified lines at all, we are third world in status.
This is what two centuries of Westminster government has achieved for Wales - a benefit-dependent country. No wonder our economy is in such a state.
Note the reaction of the Tory party to the announcement,
'Shadow transport secretary Theresa Villiers said: "Yet again Labour are maxing out Network Rail's credit card, leaving the taxpayer to foot the bill.
"After (Business Secretary) Lord Mandelson announced cuts to the transport budget, how can we believe that Labour can announce 1.1bn of new spending without impacting on existing transport commitments or putting further strain on public finances already stretched to breaking point?"'
No doubt Cameron will put a stop to the investment, and cynically I feel that Brown's announcement is probably a lot of hot air prior to the Cabinet's first meeting at Cardiff. He knows in reality that the plans will never leave the station, so to speak.
Have a good holiday!
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Message 14..
South pembs does indeed elect 2 of Plaid's 5 councillors in the whole of Pembrokeshire. Conversely there are 44 independent councillors without taking into account the number of labour and conservatives.
It seems community issues and values still dominate local politics in Pembs... not 500 year old grudges and language. :)
Anyway, to continue Penddu's attempt to start a topic.... what is made of Gordon Brown holding the first ever cabinet meeting in Wales today?
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This whole Cabinet on the road thing is a political sideshow which just brings home to the electorate the fact that Labour is on its last legs - I for one will be looking out for GB confusing UK and Welsh issues - one obvious example being the NHS (England) approach to swine flu which has not been adopted by NHS Wales
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
It's great to see the Cabinet here in Wales - it's a reminder that we have more chance of getting out of this recession if the constituent parts of the UK work together.
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look lads, wishing betsan to enjoy her holiday in welsh is not a crime, especially as she herself wrote in welsh above...grow up will ya!
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It's funny how the nats on this blog rubbish the rail electrofication
yet their AM's are desperately trying to claim the credit.Claiming the credit for something someone else has done is a party trait and Adam
Price. Who? Adam Price is the master of all illusion.As for swine flu
we'll leave the nats sort it out they'll know more about it than most.
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penddu, wrote.....
..... the NHS in England approach to swine flu which has not been adopted by NHS Wales .....
..... as I understand it the NHS in Wales doesn't have a policy other than "carry on as usual", apparently the population is so small our under worked NHS can pick up the slack with only a little extra effort.
Our Minister for Health is probably curled up relaxing with a good book and some classical music, formulating policies for the Winter possibly ..... is it too much to ask I wonder, or possibly her mind is still preoccupied with car parking charges, waiting-time targets, ambulance service performance or hospital food.
Value for money, or not ..... , she is obviously not.
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If you are referring to me as one of your nats - I was not rubbishing the Electrification - I said it can only be good news - I was rubbishing the cynical timing of the announcement!
How can you tell when Peter Hain is lying?? Easy - his lips are moving
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Re 24
Again, Stonemason, your hatred of Welsh democracy over-rides everything else. What point - besides retaining your full-time cynicism - are you actually trying to make?
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#26
No hatred at this keyboard only a sense of wonderment that the minister, thus passes the glory of the world, has made no announcement about preparations for combating the flue pandemic. Do we assume dead above the neck?
An interesting concept, "Welsh democracy", this would be a novel you are writing no doubt, you would have included the abolition of Regional AMs in the plot, a Never Ending Story would be a good title but it has been taken.
I take it from your lack of response to my answer at "No Please" that you "take the comfort of security without participating".
Good holiday BP.
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Did you see IWJ on Cardiff Station hanging on to the coat tails of Brown, Morgan and Hain like the little lap dog that he is.Mind you he has travelled outside Wales with Labour something he wouldn't have achieved with Plaid.
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Good to see the one eyes discovering amazing new facts.
Shock! South Pembs is known as 'Little England beyond Wales'...the rest of us have known this for rather a long time.
Rhodri Morgan holidays in Mwnt, not Sir Benfro, but then a chiched outlook cannot deal with facts, no matter now trivial.
Now then, all these suggestions about taking a holiday in France. Given their fondness for a chappie called Nick, presumably this would be to pal up with Jean-Marie.
Once more onto the beach, dear friends.
Happy holiday Bestan.
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Whether it be one aye bay or one eye boy the fact that Rhodri uses Mwnt
as a base is well known to the well known but given the extravagant nature of the beast a 'first class' bus ride,raf helicopter or chauffered
Bently would deposit the First Minister in the caravan park in Nolton
within minutes.
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Well Bethan good news for your next generation a warm and sunny day forecast but sods law you're most probably packing your bags and the
kids ready to return to the big bad city.I suppose you have kept in touch
via the Western Mail especially the article on 'more money needed for a
devolved Wales'.More £140,000+ Civil servants( welsh speaking of course),more expenses,more wealth in Cardiff,more immigration,more emigration to the west,more holiday homes,more wind farms(how many wind
farms in Cardiff or Mwnt?)But hang on when did we have a vote on devolution did I miss it? Rather presumptive wouldn't you say?
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OK Electrification....
A long awaited announcement, and it does look as if it wasn't for the pressure from the Welsh Government it might have ended at Bristol. Of course its good news, typical of the Tories thought not to value investment. It will pay for its self in many ways, less wear and tear on the lines, so less maintenance expense, faster trains, shorter journey times etc. Now we need this extended in North Wales all the way to Holyhead and the South Wales electrification extended to Fishguard and Pembroke Dock. Thus we will have a network capable of being plugged into the European high speed network. Of course the logic is inescapable, the shortening of journey times and the reduction of maintenance costs can and should be expanded to most if not all of our rail network. Around Swansea, Newport and Cardiff there exists a commuter network in dire need of investment, these are the infrastructure changes that we need to improve our economy. Unfortunately the National Assembly is in a financial straight jacket. These additional improvements, which are vital to the economic health of the Valleys and our cities will not happen.
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Slightly off topic, in my Email yesterday was the invitation to participate.
The shape of things to come. The Conservative Party began a YouGov survey to test the waters, included in the survey are the following considerations
* Introduction of fixed-term parliaments for the House of Commons
* Introduction of a wholly or largely elected House of Lords
* Reduction in the power of the party whips in Parliament
* Strengthening of parliamentary select committees
* The power for constituents to 'recall' and replace their MP
* A significant reduction in the number of MPs
* Enhanced power for local government
* A new written and codified constitution
* Introduction of more 'family-friendly' working hours for Parliament
* Shorter recesses for Parliament
* Provision for more direct involvement of citizens in political decision-making through such things as referendums and 'voter juries'
It seems the Assembly, will it become superficial to the process of governance as constitutional changes are implemented during the next decade at Westminster.
The question of voting was also a topic ..... the present system of first-past-the-post, the Alternative Vote, Proportional Representation are all options in the blue future.
I'm guessing, but I think DC could carry mapexx with much that is on offer.
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With the realisation that more of our beautiful countryside will be
covered with wind farms to provide the electric to drive these trains
I wonder if the price is worth paying.(£172 cheap day return)
Why should Penddu choose the subject for conservation? Why don't we discuss 15p Carrier bags and the Aussie firm set up with a welsh grant,
an office and factory to manufacture cloth bags.Four jobs created.IBW at work? How many first class flights did that little deal take?
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If the tree huggers think the electrification of the rail network will be accomplished with windmills, I suggest a new "Wind-table of rail times" might be studied.
A new nuclear power station in Pembrokeshire will be the order of the day, to compliment three in the Isle of Anglesey.
#32 wrote .....
Unfortunately the National Assembly is in a financial straight jacket .....
Fortunately the National Assembly is not involved as this project would not get passed the hot air stage.
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33. Financed by Ashcroft or Murdock no doubt.
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#36
Financed by good, honest, lateral thinking Conservatives, with the good will of the majority of voters, for everybody.
No inward looking Nationalist in this camp.
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Again Presumptious.'majority of voters' your getting as bad as the nats.
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Message 33...
Mapexx will opt for any adminstration that carries out root and branch overhaul of our non constitutional method of governance.
I would add one thing to that list Stoney...
The dispensation of 'party political hype, spin, and involvement. Make it unnecessary, if not downright illegal, to 'carry a flag'.
Place a line through the right of a candidate to isolate himself from the rest of us, via a declaration of allegiance to a certain way of managing the economic and social wellbeing of the people of Britain.
He does what is required, and expected, or he does nothing.
He either enters the voting process on a declaration of paying heed to his constituents, and not the 'party club' he belongs to, or he does not stand.
Make the bloody lot of 'em 'independants'.
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mapexx,
I was speaking to my brother this afternoon and he said a very similar thing, he added a President to the list of objectives, he felt the numbers hanging on to the coat tails of our head of state was disproportionate to any benefit the citizenship might gain.
He also reflected your previous comments relating to making voting compulsory, he feels the extreme political elements would be squeezed by the process.
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Of course if you want to see how independents actually operate have a look at the magnificent blog from Old Grumpy... look it up in a search engine.
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Do the polls show that the conservatives will get a majority of votes? I think the best they can do is get the most votes, a plurality, and not a majority.
Interesting that Stonemason firsts attacks the National Assembly for being non democratic because it has an element of proportionality and then fawns over Cameron because he may adopt it!
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#42
..... fawn, that doesn't quite sit, it is quite obvious we have not met.
The difference is in the methodology, the Conservative Party canvases the membership, later it will canvas other bodies including the electorate, a subtle difference in perceptions of democracy.
The non-democratic element is the list, I think you will find the Alternative Vote is the satisfying proposal. I predict a lessoning of AMs to correspond with the lowering of MP numbers, so the Welsh list should be consigned to failed history with the regional wannabes.
Government is changing, less is more, the electorate are sick and tired of politicians telling us how to live our lives, mapexx has the rights of it where he writes .....
..... He/she either enters the voting process on a declaration of paying heed to his constituents, and not the 'party club' he belongs to, or he does not stand.
..... I would prefer a Conservative in No 10 though.
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I'm with you Stonemason, as party members in Newport east, the Conservatives frequently seek the opinions of me and my wife.
Our opinions do matter, our opinions are actively sought. We make it clear that the assembly to us, is nothing but a great huge parasitic suckling pig.
A parasite that must be sated, before a penny is spent on health, education and the many other things that make for a nicer life.
Rhodri Morgan's flag flying, anthem trilling, often anti-English nationalism, in a region where such a large number of English folk live, is madness.
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#44
Well said Jack, the disgusting smell of nationalism coming from Cardiff Bay is going to receive a good dose of democratic disinfectant very soon, if you read the speeches of all the parties, it is apparent that Plaid have been caught with their sticky fingers in a Nation building exercise with King Morgan, how many will risk sharing a duvet in the future I wonder.
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message 40...
I may be misreading, but do you refer to the Buck house mob?
IF so, I find that a tad disconcerting in that, to and from, all my gained information, the Tory party has a panache for supporting the Royals, hangers on and all, as the very epitome of Britishness.
I do agree with your bro tho, it's about time that bunch of anachronistics were pensioned off, with those still young enough to so do, get jobs, and those too old to, start living on the state pension.
At least until they come to realise what a privileged life they have been leading up to now.
Once they have been taught the errors of their ways, a place in a residential home for the elderly, so they can also be immersed in the same sort of treatment many of their elderly subjects have been subjected to for many decades.
If the Tory party are about to announce, not only a reduction in the number of MP's and Lords, maybe they should hit the top echelon of our social structure as well. Set an example so to speak. Let not a stone be unturned.
Mind you Stoney, if those bits you say the party is to add to our 'new' UK, then maybe it's about time they changed the name to the Real or Genuine Labour Party, as to be honest, most of those items are pretty well what most true Labourites would opt for.
personally I am all for a management structure to run this massive firm, GB PLC.
Maybe with some astute business acumen at the top, we may yet become well worth our place on the financial world map after all.
It may even pull Wales out of the slough of despond that it seems to have settled into over the last decade.
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44 & 45
Boy, are you people strange!
You seem to hate difference, abhor Welsh democracy and patriots, and wallow in this constant paranoia.
You sound particularly smug at the moment though, seemingly believing that the next election is in the bag for the Tories and the old-Etonians. You may very well win and restore the toffocracy, but one thing is certain, they too will become the shambles that Labour is portraying right now. And just as the Tories did, of course, before Blair won - when the Tories dealt in sleaze and brown envelopes.
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Well mapexx, I think too much has been offered, promised, inferred for Westminster to go about face.
I don't know what the new party labels could be, I'm not entirely sure it matters as long as the majority of governance is local to people, and I'm not sure decision making has to be at such a volume and at such a speed that good options are dismissed because of the race to be politically first.
Bad governance is best addressed locally, here in Caerphilly we have a dreadful situation where education funding across senior and junior schools is the lowest in Wales, it is not that funds are not received but how those funds are disbursed, the council has not been giving the children value for money, and results testify to this. The answer is ask searching questions publicly, demand answers so that the councillors become mandated, through public opinion, to get their act together and deliver good education, not political agenda.
#47
You are wide of the mark in paragraph 2, .....
difference is what put the Great before Britain.
The differences between Isambard Kingdom Brunel and William Hedley designer f the Puffing Billy, of Evan and James James and of Dylan Marlais Thomas who said "The land of my fathers. My fathers can have it!", and Parry-Thomas murdered by his car Babs when an exposed drive chains decapitated him during a speed record attempt. Do you get it, difference is what makes things good, Plaid difference is political destruction, it makes things bad.
Democracy has historically been denied to the populations of countries dominated by Nationalists, check out my favourite wiki.
Patriotism is what sent men and women to war so that the Nationalists amongst us are able to spin their perverted view of the world and call democratic concern a paranoia.
Your accusations of sleaze comes across as slippery as the slope you intend to lure the unwary onto, I notice that Plaid MP representing Carmarthen East is modifying his Independence language, this is the same MP that employed the National Chair of Plaid Cymru as an IT consultant, no competitive tendering to ensure value for taxpayers money, reported Jun 23 2009 Western Mail, sleaze? What do you think!
But your use of the word smug seems to be sour grapes, but be assured, everyone will be looked to in the future, although we draw the line at floating part of our green and pleasant land off into the sunset towards oblivion, some things are just plain daft.
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Did Cameron put out is Wisteria pruning to competitive tender?
Lets get this clear Stonemason there is no suggestion of impropriety with Adam Price's expenditure.
Democracy is democracy I am not sure which nationalists you are referring to, the UK Unionists are also nationalists, nationalists for their multi national construct, the United Kingdom. I think, to be honest nationalist and unionist are fairly redundant terms. No country in the world is truly independent, Plaid Cymru, like other civic nationalist parties want their country, Wales, to be a full player in the international community, on a basis of equality. Not as part of a larger supranational state. Even the Tories in London acknowledge that Wales is one of the constituent Nations of the UK. One of the characteristics of a nation is the right to self determination, something again that the Tories agree on.
Yet you try to make out Plaid as something sinister and suggest in thinly veiled terms that its fascist and anti democratic. Your writing drips with contempt. Why? Its perfectly possible to engage in debate on these topics without engaging a permanent sneer.
I respect the views of UK Unionists, I don't agree with them, but I can understand their viewpoint, and I am happy to discuss why they hold their views - but I can do without the invective and insults.
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Everytime I see David Cameron I'm reminded of the skit with John Cleese on the Two Ronnies over class. How does it go 'I look down on him because he's middle class and he looks down on him cause he's working class.To me the Tory's never change upper class snobs who thrive on privilege,influence and freemasonry. Nothing Changes.
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48. At 07:29am on 26 Jul 2009, TheStonemason wrote:
"Democracy has historically been denied to the populations of countries dominated by Nationalists, check out my favourite wiki."
No, democracy has been denied to populations of countries dominated by a political elite. The UK has rarely promoted democracy, rather the opposite. Ireland, France, United States, India all gained a form of democracy despite the UKs opposition
I find it strange that you use patriotism in the nationalistic sense to denigrate nationalists who disagree with your views. I'm confused as to which recent war you are referring as WW2 only became a "fight for democracy" around 1941. Prior to that it was fought in a jingoistic style of patriotic Imperialism, the goal of which was to stop Hitlers expansionism not restore democracy. There have been plenty of Wars of Independence which could be classed as fighting for democracy, but the UK appears to have been in the wrong camp in all of them. Maybe you could correct my warped and cynical view of our countrys motives
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#49
Lets get this clear Stonemason there is no suggestion of impropriety with Adam Price's expenditure.
The contract, and lets be clear it was a contract, did not go to tender, has public money been protected through a tender procedure. In view of your very strong response, this deserves a question to Westminster to corroborate your Lets get this clear.
#51
Your penultimate paragraph, this must be a Plaid history of world events you use as a reference.
You might like to put that viewpoint, your last paragraph, to the survivors of the holocaust.
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Re 52
Stonemason,
When Cameron appointed the rather dubious ex-editor of the News of the World as his liar-in-chief, sorry, spin doctor, what was the process? He earns £1/2 million a year, apparently - is he worth it do you think? Does this man add to the legitimacy of the democratic process?
I'm not aware that Adam Price has done anything wrong either, though I'm quite sure you'd love it to be otherwise.
The fact that you can deny the point made about Ireland, France, the United States and India is perhaps no surprise, but it is very telling. And attempts at making Plaid look sinister - I quite agree with Lyn_Thomas - are ridiculous, and a very poor substitute for a serious argument.
But I suppose for British nationalism to continue and flourish these kinds of myths are required.
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Yes did he put the job out to competitive tender Stonemason? I see you are avoiding the question as ever.
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52. At 3:18pm on 26 Jul 2009, TheStonemason wrote:
"You might like to put that viewpoint, your last paragraph, to the survivors of the holocaust."
When asked to back up a point, you attempt to smear and imply I am the worst kind of nationalist. As far as I am aware, no-one had much of an idea about the brutality and horrors of the death camps until the first ones were liberated. WW2 was not fought over this matter and you're silly statements do little but make you look foolish.
I'm still waiting for you to point out a war the UK has fought in the name of democracy in the last 200 years.
The closest we came was in the Falklands, but the Islanders never had democracy to start with so it can hardly be counted. I haven't read any Plaid literature but it's obviously more accurate than the schoolboy history books you're using.
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FiFi. If your on about Myths and dodgy expenses look no further than the
Impeachment of Tony Blair. Why three Plaid MP'S should claim for legal advice as well as Alex Salmond is suspicious to say the least.
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Claiming for the legal advice they needed to do their job, that sounds to me exactly what an MP should be claiming expenses on. Their job was to hold the government to account, that was what they were trying to do. And stop using the FiFi diminutive, its insulting and demeans the discussion.
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34 - I suggested the topic of rail electrification because it was the lead story of the day - to avoid the blog being overwhelmed by negative anti-everything vitriol that ceratin posters adopt. It worked for a while.......
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57 If it was legitimate why did they have to pay it back and why did
they have to pay back £5,000 for 'party political propaganda' paid out
of the communications allowance.If the truth hits a nerve. tough but
don't try to take the moral high ground and tell me what to do if it
is demeaning it is so in your polluted mind not in mine.
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58 Blackhead you have no authority here this blogs for everyone.We have
to comply with house rules and moderation and it is up to them whether
content is appropriate.
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59 - they didn't have to pay it back.
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60 - I dont claim to have any authority on this site, and my suggestion was just that - a suggestion. Some of the interesting posters followed. Some of the bigots went their own way. Your choice.
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'Au contraire..' as they say in Germany, it is just that as a newshound you are turning up in time for Tenby to be catapulted to national, nay, international stardom.
But no sign of David Hasselhoff - yet...
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They paid the communications money back, not the money for legal advice. Several MPs were wrongly advised by the fees office that expenditure on newsletters was acceptable, this is right across parties. They did not personally benefit in anyway from that expenditure, unlike getting your wisteria cut etc.
One of the problems with the feeding frenzy that the press generated with the expenses scandal seems to be that just about all expenditure is seen by some as being illegitimate. This is wrong and is detrimental to the political process. If you want MPs to do their job you have to give them the resources, and that includes producing factual newsletters so their constituents know what they have been doing (clue that is why its a communications allowance) and taking legal advice on carrying out a little used procedure to call the government to account.
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#49 Going back to the question in hand.
National Chair of Plaid Cymru was reported in the Western Mail June 23 as saying .....
"I was asked by them to oversee the installation of a new IT system for the office. Of course there were other companies that could have done the job, but with more than 30 years experience in this field, I was felt to be a suitable choice."
No tendering process then, an old boy network, separatist network.
#55
The latest war in the name of democracy is of course the current UN sponsored war in Afghanistan against the Taliban.
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Re 65
So Stonemason is absolutely stumped. Absolutely no answers whatsoever. It does take you back to the Thatcher/Major era: no answers, except - we can't possibly be wrong. Frightening, actually.
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The one-eyed brigade clearly do not like going outside when it rains and it was a rather wet weekend. It must be trying when your point of view (unchanged since 1979) is left so far behind by the tide of history. I am in the cheerful position of actually knowing what the leadership of the next UK government thinks about devolution and its progress (it is called knowing real people rather than blogging in the darkness) and it is fair to say that the anti Wales agenda is limited to UKIP and the BNP. Something tells me that neither of these parties will thrive in 2010 or 2011. When confronted by ignorance, it can be for the best to feel compassion for these people.
The sad thing about the various anti postings is all they have done is to sling mud and scrabble for imagined slights. I contribute to this blog out of an almost morbid curiosity, since one so rarely comes across these bizarre points of view in one's business, social or civic dealings.
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Message 67...
As it appears you are incapable of heading your messages with the number of the messages you are referring to, it is unlikely anyione has a clue what you are on about, other than to appear to belong to the same 'club' as certain others, who perpetually throw unjustified brickbats to perfetly clear submissiions.
Maybe you will improve, by commencing future messages, if any, with the numbers to which you respond.
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67 You imply that the incoming Conservative government will not be anti-Wales, and I hope that you are right. But did you see David Cameron on Andrew Marr show on Sunday? He said quite categorically that they would abolish regional assemblies. As there is only one regional assembly in England (for London) I can only conclude that the Tories want to take Wales backwards again, unless you know different?
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Re 68
You said:
"As it appears you are incapable of heading your messages with the number of the messages you are referring to, it is unlikely anyione has a clue what you are on about"
Err, no...!!
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68 (and 70)
I was taking a big picture view, one that transcends points and point scoring.
69
Well, I believe that the Conservatives do not class Wales as a region per se. If Cameron wants to abolish the Welsh Assembly, he would have to have a very good reason for not abolishing Stormont. That could be interesting since it would come back to the point that those who adopt the constitutional and democratic path towards devolution have to be chastised, while those who adopt terror need to be seen to be rewarded.
My suspicion is that Cameron is stating his objection to English regional assemblies as a concept. We look forward to a clarification here!
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71 I hope that you are right and Cameron was indeed referring to the English Regional Committees (are they caled Assemblies?).
But it does highlight a failing of the system - In order to gain devolved powers we need a 2/3 majority vote in the Senedd, approval by SoS, HoC, HoL, etc, and that is just to get a referendum !! - but on the other hand it can be removed at a whim by the Westminster government.
Democracy?
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message 71...
thank you, that clears that one up.
Message 70, ... that big ever growing nose is poking in again I see. Pinocchio is on the rant again.
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message 71 again...
In regards Stormont, I think a covert political agenda is operating across the Irish Sea, one that is hardly applicable to Wales, if indeed at all.
The establishment of the current Stormont, as I see it, was to provide a sop to the IRA/Sinn Fein, so that the Good Friday agreement could be set on course.
In covert, I refer to the possible unification of the whole of Ireland, at some indeterminate time in the future.
Here in Wales we have no such a matter to pursue,we are already in unity with our neighbours, therefore there would be no imperative for any government to not disestablish the Assembly/WAG, if it saw it fitting to so do.
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"therefore there would be no imperative for any government to not disestablish the Assembly/WAG, if it saw it fitting to so do"
...without a referendum with compulsory voting Map?
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message 75, ...
I was suggesting only, that it is in the purview of government, in the absence of either referendum or written constitution, to alter whatever it sees fit, without recourse to other than those, the electorate, that placed it in the seat of governance.
I do not agree with it, and would certainly opt for compulsory voting in all elections, particularly, but not exclusively, referenda.
You should recognise this, as I feel safe in assuming you are old enough to take part in elections.
However, how you would actually react to enforced voting is another matter, which, if you wish to debate, must be done elsewhere, as there is no applicable thread on this blog, to take up such a debate.
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Sorry if I was unclear Mapexx - would you abolish the Assembly without a referendum?
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message 77....
No,I would, as I have stated quite a few times, only abolish the whole thing if a referendum was not called and taken under compulsory terms.
To simply repeat the 1997 fiasco, that under any terms was not democratic, in that it gave birth to an Assembly without the express permission of the greater majority, that is by, I would say, at least 75% taking part, would be a forlorn exercise.
Why do I say 75%?
Simple, because if one side then gets 50.1% of the vote, the worst that can be assumed is that had the other 25% voted, then a majority would have occurred, I think it safe to say that a similar number would have voted with the 'for' camp, giving a overall total of that 50.1%, democratic, even if not fully voted on.
However, in 1997, the 'winning' margin was 0.06% on a turn out of just over a half of the voters. There is no way I would, or can, accept that.
In face of the apathy shown by the other half who failed to turn out, it could not be construed that a half of that half would show the same parameters 'for' as could be assumed on a 75% turn out.
By their very failure to turn out, the majority showed indifference, therefore they could be, quite rightly, assumed to not be in favour.
But to re-answer your question,... No...is the answer, unless as outlined above.
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Majority was ten times as much Map - a full 0.6%! - but I'm pleased you'd need a referendum to abolish...
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78
0.6% is 0.6% - it is a majority. '79 was accepted, '97 was accepted. It is time to accept our realities, as 80-90% of people in Wales do today. You would have to apply these arguements to all other elections for them to apply, or have a 75% vote for abolishing the assembly.
The only debate in Wales is about how much further we want to go and when.
We live in a material world, which is described by verifiable facts:
The earth is round (a spheriod anyway), it is not flat.
The moon consists of rock, not cheese.
Heliocentrism describes the solar system's motions, not an earth centred model.
There was a majority vote in favour of devolution in 1997.
Opinion polls since that time have shown a consistent increase in support for devolution and extending it.
This is where we are and that is that.
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78 Mapexx - can you clarify - are you saying:
That you would abolish the Assembly if a 75% majority voted to do so, or in the absence of such a 75% rule then without a referendum at all.
Does not seem very consistent(or democratic)
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And to pick up on your comments about compulsory voting, I am in favour of compulsory voting (providing it applied to all elections and not just selectively to Welsh devolution), but how would it work in practice?
If you did not vote would you be warned, fined, lose right to a passport ?
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mapexx, at #74 you wrote .....
Here in Wales we have no such a matter to pursue,we are already in unity with our neighbours .....
Such a message could neutralize Welsh Nationalism permanently and return our lands to sanity once again !
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78. At 3:43pm on 27 Jul 2009, mapexx wrote:
"By their very failure to turn out, the majority showed indifference, therefore they could be, quite rightly, assumed to not be in favour."
Your argument doesn't really hold water, it's been a stalling tactic for many years. It's used in boardrooms, clubhouses and politics to protect the status quo
Unless people vote they can't be used to justify a particular stance. Nobody knows their intentions but themselves, if they can't be bothered to vote on important issues all we can assume is they are happy to go along with what the majority want and don't really care either way.
The Norwich by election had a turnout of around 46%, the MP was returned by a good majority (of those voting). Does this mean her election is invalid? What about the General Election 2005 on a 61.3% turnout Labour got 37% and govern the country even though only 22.7% of the electorate actually voted for them. Democracy gives everyone eligible to vote the chance to do so, if they fail to vote they live with the consequences and abide by the result. Setting arbitary 75% targets is manipulation to disenfranchise those who did vote.
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message 81...
Let us take a vote, engaging a potential 100 people. Will we have ice cream or will we have apple pie?, being the parameters.
51 turn up to vote, but only twenty seven vote for ice cream.
twenty six for apple pie.
The ice cream has it. On a turn out of 51.
Now as the other 49 don't bother to vote, it can be assumed they want neither ice cream or apple pie...
With me so far?
As that 49 have expressed no preference, it can also be assumed that they could easily have voted either way, but it will be safer, considering they didn't bother, to assume they would not want ice cream, the fact they did not want apple pie either, becomes irrelevant, and so can be added to the not in favour of ice cream side which makes the result invalid.
Now, if you state, prior to the election, that there will be no result unless 75 turn out, and the result is that 75 turn out, the non voters amount to one third of the turnout.
If the same pecentage vote for ice cream, that will mean approximately 40 will vote for ice cream.
Then, if we allow that the same percentage are assumed to not vote for either, one can also assume that if forced, a small percentage of that 25 who did not turn out may vote, in fact, for ice cream.
Added to those who voted ice cream, this will exacerbate the 'for' vote, so that an assumed majority can be readily established.
The overall result would be in favour of ice cream, by a far more certain majority than under the same terms with a lower turnout of only 51..
Still with me?
Therefore, I could accept the result based on a 75% turnout, but NOT on a turnout of only just over 50%.
That was the case in 1997, and to the other person who commented, 1979 produced an opposite result to 1997. Not the same, as you stated.
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Mapexx,
You cannot and would not accept the majority vote of 0.6% in favour of devolution and demand a "democratic" re-vote with a higher turnout mandatory etc etc as you keep mentioning.
One question - If the shoe was on the other foot and the NATS had lost by 0.6% would you be campaigning for a re-vote at all in the name of democracy?
(I think not)
Of the majority who voted they voted for it. Stop being a sore loser and deal with it.
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No constitutional issue should be decided on a margin of 0.6%, no-matter what outcome.
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message 86...
Why should I accept such a result, you did not in 1979, but nagged and nagged until you were given the opportunity to have a re-vote, which was far more undemocratically 'won' than when we won in 1979.
If we were not allowed to keep our result, why should you be allowed to keep yours? No matter what method is used in achieving it.
Which, by the way, is why I require a mandatory election procedure, and why you will not agree to such.
You know only too well what the result would be, and it would not be to your liking, as those who have shown no preference would demonstrate why they acted in that way.
They are not interested in your Cymraeg nonsense, and showed just how much disinterested by abstaining, or not turning out.
That is just how much it matters, I say they should be compelled to show their antipathy to what you people are attempting to force on them.
If I am wrong, then take it to the test of a compulsory referendum..
As I have said previously, I will abide by the result, under such terms, will you?
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88 There was an election in 79 - we lost and the issue was dead for a generation. It was only resurrected once there was overwhelming public support for it, even if the actual result was not as resounding. Today the opinion polls are all showing the same thing - desire for more not less powers.
If these opnion polls move towards abolition then so be it - but that is clearly not the case. The Assembly is here to stay and probably be strengthened. Maybe this will change but not for a another generation I guess.
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I can't help myself. Map - if 51 people turn up, 27 vote for ice cream and 26 for apple pie which two people have voted for both?
"They are not interested in your Cymraeg nonsense" chucked in off-topic just for a laugh.
Best of all from the previous thread:
"I do not deal in 'opinions' just facts" - an astonishing statement. Your "facts" from referenduns majorities to apple pie arithmetic are usually fantasy.
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88
I am shocked!
I am dismayed!
This Extreme Nat used a Welsh Word, which as every decent person knows is Wrong. How are we supposed to lead decent proper lives when being confronted with the Welsh all the time and having it shoved down our throats by people like this.
What is the world coming to?
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message 90...
OK!, so my figures which were not quite accurate, give you a chance to be pedantic, it still alters nothing, as you obviously knew what I meant, hence your reply, even if only a feeble attempt to try tripping me up.
No matter. As usual, nit pick to your hearts content..
As for the 'opinion' polls that you are fond of quoting, it is hardly likely that they will show anything but a move towards your point of view when they DELIBERATELY leave out the possible, nay, probable, end result of taking Wales into limbo land.
And, the questions preceding the polls, are are deliberately slanted to obtain the results gained from them.
As I said before, when the electorate is provided with the FULL and unmitigated facts of where the Cymraeg brigade are leading it, you may be certain it will change it's mind, tout suite.
I am sure of one certainty, the Welsh are not suicidal.
Message 91....
Are you so thick as to believe that I, a Welsh person, living in this area of Wales, with antecedents in this region extending back at least 5 or 6 verifiable generations, would be unlikely to know a word or two in the language that you people are insistent in forcing into the lives of the majority, who have no interest in it.
Will it 'shock' you even further, if you were to know I also know a few words of French, German, Italian, Esperanto, Arabic, Urdu, even English as it happens?
In retrospect, I suppose it likely that you also may be able to utter the odd word or two, in Cymraeg.
However, if so, I would prefer if you kept them to yourself, as I have no wish to have my brain cluttered up with an ancient language that survives only by virtue of a few classical scholars, a warped political methodology, and by the grace and favour, not necessarily acceptable, of the taxpaying base of the whole UK.
It's bad enough having to put up with all the enforced 'new' language on road signage, and in virtually every bit of documentation that falls on my doormat, via the post.
The local names can be tolerated, as they are the remnant of a bygone age, when the language was extant in the area, but the utter waste of money in providing dual language documentation must be horrendous, when considering the bulk of it lands into the trash, unread, for it's uselessness to the overwhelming majority.
Also by the way, there is no such a beast as a 'Welsh' word,, there is no such a language as Welsh, what there is, is a language known as Cymraeg.
Therefore, any word in that language is a Cymraeg word.
I too can be pedantic, and absolutist.But please do give me an argument, if you feel able.
You people not only want to have your own way with that language, but also steal an 'English' word to entitle it.
Penny and the bun, nothing new then.
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"As for the 'opinion' polls that you are fond of quoting" - I maybe was a little pedantic but I have never quoted a single opinion poll on this blog......
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message 93...
You, (personally) at this point, will have to excuse my prose, I often use the 'you' when debating any subject, as a generic term, to refer to all those who are opposing my argument.
It is not meant as a 'personal' reference therefore.
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Message 84...
extract....
".....Unless people vote they can't be used to justify a particular stance. Nobody knows their intentions but themselves, if they can't be bothered to vote on important issues all we can assume is they are happy to go along with what the majority want and don't really care either way....."
By the same token, they can also be assumed to be happy in the way they already are. Not necessarily that they are compliant with whatever majority has been the result of the election.
And, they can be seen as turning their back on the election as irrelevant to the way they are already living, and see no point in voting for it's alteration.
Further extract...
"....The Norwich by election had a turnout of around 46%, the MP was returned by a good majority (of those voting). Does this mean her election is invalid? What about the General Election 2005 on a 61.3% turnout Labour got 37% and govern the country even though only 22.7% of the electorate actually voted for them. Democracy gives everyone eligible to vote the chance to do so, if they fail to vote they live with the consequences and abide by the result. Setting arbitrary 75% targets is manipulation to disenfranchise those who did vote....."
In keeping with the point I made previously, an election for council or government, is for a more or less fixed term administration. There is a massive difference between such elections and a referendum for a change in the constitutional construct of our state.
That referendum will alter, maybe forever and a day, the way in which our state operates, as either a homogeneous nation of regions, if the vote fails, or as a separated yet contiguous set of national regions, if successful, for the separationists.
And because that could be the outcome, it is incumbent on the state to ensure that ALL speak by using their vote.
The political party that rules for a short period, can be turned out at the next election, but the 'new' state structure, brought into being by the referendum has no such 'get out' clause, and any incoming party machine will be constricted and confined within the parameters of that referendum result.
In other words, the club rules cannot be altered without reference to and through a new referendum, no matter which 'ruling' group takes over the reins of rule..
Most 'clubs' fall simply because they altered the rules to suit a fad, or a popular trend, at a given moment in time.
That is what I suggest will happen to Wales if any further referendums reinforce the result of 1997.
So I am afraid your two commentaries, quoted above, do not comply with actuality.
You call for the method your prefer, simply because you are aware of the consequences of YOUR activities, it has nothing to do with disenfranchising those who vote. All will become subjected to that stricture. Besides which, if your argument is sound, yours could still be the victorious side.
So what is there to be scared of in accepting that ALL be compelled to vote? Is it that you know only too well you have not really got a sound base on which to construct your political platform.
Are you that unsure of your political stance in the matter?
Put it to the test. As I have said elsewhere, I will be happy to accept the result, even if by just one vote either way.
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92
This is outrageous!
This extreme nationalist is forcing Welsh words down my throat...again!
I thought this was a safe area, where we would not be hounded by language fanatics. But I was wrong, oh, so wrong.
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92
'Trash' is American English.
If the blogger is so insistent on not his mind being cluttered up with Welsh words, why does he insist on spraying them all over his blogs?
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message 96...
I did say... "give me an argument",.... not a facetious one liner, from wherever you obtained it.
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92 - If you check the last two opinion polls on devolution - ypu will find that they did include the independence option, as well as the abolition option.
Do you want me to give you the data, or will you just quietly accept that you are wrong on this point?
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98
I would suggest you read your own blogs before making a remark like that. Knowing a few words in various languages is all very well, but I would suggest mastery of English helps in this blog.
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I loved this Map:
"I have no wish to have my brain cluttered up with an ancient language"
"It's bad enough having to put up with all the enforced 'new' language on road signage"
Ancient and new - that's what we old Marxists would have called a dialectical contradiction....how to resolve?
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message 101
Ancient, in that it is of some historical age.
New, in that the roads are full of it, more so, the newly 'invented' addtions to the language.
Ergo: no dailectic contradiction.
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message 100.
I assumed you werebeing either'humourous' or scurrilous, either way, yiou got what you got, Too bad if it failed to live up to your ecclesiarch expectations. Little does apparently.
To much of a pedant perhaps.
You come across as an off duty schoolteacher, maybe I should welcome the end of six weeks of such piffle,yet to come. I must be patient, I suppose.
THIS IS A BLOG, not a forum for correct or specific grammar, spelling probity, or as a vehicle to carry one's linguistic aspirations or capabilities skywards.
Any other infantile comments to make?
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92 and 101
We are not just dealing with dialectics here, we are dealing with singularities.
Every authority I have ever come across has no difficulty when writing through the medium of English in referring to the language spoken by those who lived in Wales (i.e. the Old English word for the geo-political entity) as Welsh.
Except one...
Presumably one who rejects a language simply because it is old is also rejecting a lot of the English language, since any philologist worth his or her salt will point out the Old Germanic, High French, Latin and (dare I say it) Welsh that has nourished the English language since c550 AD. When is a langiage un-old? Perhaps we are meant to reject all English words that were used before the Early Modern era, which takes us up to 1500-1800 depending on your definition.
As pointed out above, this is a most singular outlook.
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102
But the place names were 'old' in the first place, so when replaced (by English and then jointly by English and Welsh) they represent old and new in the sense of being part of a continual linguistic narrative. How can a 1500 year old place name become new when it is re-affixed to a road sign.
Many of the expressions other than place names are also somewhat old, thus the contradiction remains.
This also suggests that our commentator wants to wee all Welsh place names excised.
Does this also imply that he wants to see all Welsh words that have ever been incorporated into the English language similarly purged?
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103
Yes, the use of capital letters suggests somebody who writes letters with green ink. It is very bad form.
Blogs ought to have standards and ought to reflect engagements in commonly understood realities, rather than a single person's rather anachronistic outlook.
Clearly, posting 100 suggests a lot of remedial homework (if it is six weeks, it cannot be prep) before September.
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"Welsh that has nourished the English language since c550 AD."
Returnee - being serious the lack of Welsh influence on English (and indeed English influence on Welsh) is one of the incredible etymological mysteries of history. Apart from geographic phenomena like "Coombe" (not seen in Friesland I presume - you can count the Welsh words in English on two hands. It's an extremely interesting element of both languages developments.....
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107
Agreed, and it is indeed fascinating about the lack of cross fertilisation. Survivals in place names, along the border, in Cumbria and Northumberland are also hints of what was once a quite different sociolinguistic map.
I fear that if any good work has been carried out here, it must be within some pretty arcane publications. Perhaps somebody should write an accessible book on the subject, since it would be fascinating to see how the languages have interacted at various points.
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Place names and River names are different. Torpenhow in Cumbria seems to be derived from Proto- Celtic "tor", Cumbric (and Modern Welsh) "pen" and early Saxon or Danish "hoe". Each element can be translated as "Hill" in modern English thus "Toepenhow" could translate as "HillHillHill" - Wonderful.
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(109) Thats 'three hills' or it's street talk derivative 'thrills'
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95. mapexx
Very funny mapexx, you are clearly concerned about your countrymen/women choosing to do something you don't like. Your arguments are as flawed as your arithmetic, any thing which disregards the view of the majority leads to disenfranchisement and disillusionment of the electorate.
It is not incumbent on the state to make sure everyone votes, they must ensure everyone has the opportunity to vote.
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message 104...
I refer to the language, in both politeness and deference, by the name it is known by those who speak it.
I do not see English being called anything other than English, except by the Cymraeg who quite properly, in the language under discussion, call it Saes.
I do not know of any other name for it, at least not one that attaches a regional name, for example, I am unaware of French being called anything other than Francais, by the French, and whenever I am in France, I never use 'French' when in the company of French people.
We Brits often refer to French people as 'frogs'. Somehow I doubt the French would welcome us calling their language 'grenouille-oise',
likewise, I suggest the Cymro should not welcome being called strangers or aliens, in their own territory.
And in their own territory too?... what a strange way to make friends and influence people..
Therefore why should I determine to call a language, with a perfectly correct name for itself, in the region I call home, which I share with that group of language users, where it is a normal language, if only in use by a small proportion of the population, anything other than the correct name, the name that it is called by it's adherents, and fluents.
Besides which, in calling the language 'Welsh', therein lies the implication of an insult, to both language, and adherents, in that it is effectively calling the language, and it's users, aliens or strangers.
The Cymreag do not call their own land Wales, they call it quite properly, again, Cymru. So should we call the language the proper name, not some name that does not, correctly, refer to the language.
Beyond that, it is not only incorrect to call the language something other than what it's own users call it, or by a slight variation, as in the case between French and Francais, it confuses the issue when defining the difference between Cymraeg and English.
As for cross over usage between English and Cymraeg, I find very little, beyond a few odd words, usually of a geographic nature.
On the other hand, there are vast numbers of bastardised English words, no matter their own source, that have been taken into Cymraeg, for the simple reason, apparently, it is either far easier to adopt and adapt, than to correctly translate.
I have dictionaries that define quite a number of English words, into Cymraeg, yet modern usage and translators have opted to absorb English words.
Why?, I have not a clue, but it happens all the time.
In my comment about the signage on the roads, I refer to the unnecessary double use of both Cymraeg and English. Especially on the major routes where such signs are invariably much larger than needs be, with the consequent extra cost in manufacture, grounding and design for wind resistance.
I recently had a similar discussion re the matter, elsewhere, so in order to make my case I researched the matter.
One sign on the M4, if in English only, would have cost, at that time, £780, but due to the extra size, the extra grounding, and the design, taking in the matter of wind and weather, that sign cost over £2000.
Smaller signage, generally also uncessesarily dual language, especially in areas where there is little call for it to occur. also creates extra charges in manufacture. This is made worse when the wordage is almost identical. Not only efinite extra cost, but also an implication that the Sae speaking majority are too thick to accept names that have been on the map for centuries in may cases.
Madness let loose. And we are paying through the taxation regime, as well as the nose, for it.
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112
There appears to be a contradiction here, since the blog number 95 makes it clear that the same language is meant to be despised and has no place in a modern society. Therefore any nods towards respectful behaviour are somewhat insincere.
Dropping in a word from one language into another may be cool and trendy (sorry, 'new') but it is tokenism in any language.
I also think that quite a few people in Britain refer to the language French people speak as French.
Again a contradiction - the posting implies respect for the French nation and its language, something that is not meant to be accorded to Wales and Welsh.
Why should a bi-lingual sign that is 25-33% bigger than a monolingual sign cost nearly three times as much. This sound like rumour rather than fact. I think a great deal more research is required here, especially in splitting out the cost factors and margin assumptions at the EBITDA, EBIT and ROCE levels.
Pedantry has its purpose, and the earth is still round and the moon is still not made of cheese.
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112
Signs and costs
An interesting exercise would be to put the cost of signs per mile against the cost of the road itself.
Given that a motorway costs many millions per mile (a most variable figure, but never under seven figures per mile these days) and that you are unlikely to have more than ten signs per mile (and indeed, usually a lot less), then:
Assume £10 million per mile of M4
Assume 5 signs per mile
Assume 112's difference of £1,220 per mile
Then the added cost of signs is £6,100 per mile
The added cost equals 0.06% of the total cost
Something tells me that more than 0.06% of people in Wales speak Welsh.
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114
Sorry - I meant £1220 per sign, not mile.
I hope that it senf evident in the calculation.
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Map - I'm getting fed up of correcting you but it's "Saesneg" for "English". A suggestion - do some study before you post anything - you just look foolish.
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Map just so you can get all your ducks in order:
Cymru = Wales the nation
Cymry = the Welsh people
Cymreig - Welsh (of the nation)
Cymraeg - Welsh (of the language)
Lloegr - England
Saeson - English people
Seisneg = English (of the nation)
Saesneg - English (of the language)
Please don't hesitate to ask for any necessary clarification.
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This blog is English language, if it is imperative to use Welsh there is Vaughan Roderick.
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Just to help Mapexx Stony.
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118
Aha, so we have a rift here between Stoney and M ap Exx.
And to think that I thought they were the same person.
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112. Maapex I sit back in admiration. Take it to em son.
118. So why do we have Penddu which means Blackhead or Dewi which
means David on this blog.
113. The cost of signage is usually charged by the letter so a sign
for say Tenby in English costs less than a sign for Denbych-y-
Pysgod.Three times as much.
109. With regards to translation Denbych y pysgod would translate
'entice the small to fish' while Tenby would be Ganddeg.
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messages 116 and 117...119...
Personally I couldn't give a toss. I stick with what I stick with, you obviously knew what I meant. So as far as I am concerned, this being an English language blog I am quite happy with my input.
I need no help therefore.
If you wish to be a tutor, I am sure there are plenty of vacancies in the Ysgol system to occupy your time.
The same goes to all the other pedants who tend to pop up on these boards, whenever there is a debate concerning this region of the UK.
message 120...
Seems you have some sort of mental blindness pal, Stoney and I are on opposing sides of the political divide for sure, but invariably, on this Blog we share, pretty well, the same basic feelings.
I can assure you, and I am certain Stoney will say the same, so far, over many months, we have never diverged in our take on the matter of the Assembly or on any other aspect of Welsh life.
Just as your lot appear to be conjoined, be you Plaid, Labour, or whatever, as you stand united in the face of opposition to your attitude to Wales.
Message 114....
If you think my facts are wrong, do as I did and go check. Do you think I am stupid enough to submit data, with the chance that some clever clogs like you will also check to make my figures turn out to be fanciful.
Go ahead. I stand by my figures, as they came from a variety of official sources, where did you get yours from. Plucked from the air for sure.
Simple calculations, based on inaccurate knowledge cannot stand up to officially derived, and therefore, factual figures.
Message 113, I suggest you read again the message in which mention was made of the French.
What I said was I, get that, I, do not call the language 'French' when in conversation with French people, I call it by the name the Francais call it, les Francaise.
I am well aware that the British call it French. BUT where is your answer to the proposition that Welsh is NOT the langauge of the Cymry (thanks to Dewi for that definition)
The language of the Welsh is, contrary as it may seem... English.
Wales is the region we ALL live in.
The language of the Cymry is... Cymraeg.
Cymru is the nation the Cymry aspire to live in, but never will.
Now if you still feel the need to be corrective, even though you are, generally speaking, incorret yourselvesm, by all means carry on. I can keep this up for ever, if needs be.
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message 121..
Well said T'Gnat, I receive your support in gratitude.
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122
Ah, the use of obscene language in a blog. The last resort of the defeated.
Refusing to give numbers or analysis of numbers is likewise the refuge of the ignorant.
You are unable or unwilling to ewngage in any form of constructive debate as soon as facts are brought forward.
All this hysteria over at the very most, 0.06% of a project's cost suggests a distorted sense of priorities.
121 & 123
Well then, since Fenni and Hwlffordd are shorter than Abertgavenny and Haverfordwest, your logic must demand that the English versions are not used here.
Oh dear.
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message 122...
First I must tell you I have lodged a complaint re the comment about obscene language.
Second, maybe it somehow passes your remarkable attention that ABER GAVENNY is quite correct in use, as it contains the whole name in Cymraeg, the 'f' being hard in Cymraeg is naturally modified into the English 'V' being the only distortion.
But as I am quite happy to see the Cymraeg name only, I will go along with you.
The problem may be with the Welsh Tourist industry, here in Wales, where 'Abergavenny' is much more recognisable, across the world, than the Cymraeg original.
What the hell the rest is all about, numbers, analysis thereof, refusal to debate, etc., is likewise as baffling as the comment about obscenity.
Methinks you should lay off the wacky baccy, or alcoholic beverages a while, to allow your head to clear.
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PS to 125....
I also made it clear, I thought, that the only 'smaller' signs I found to be objectionable, were those that utilised slightly modified English names, which effectively, being made larger with unnecessary Cymraeg names on, made them more costly.
Also, in effect, such signs IMPLIED that those who do not use Cymraeg were too thick to understand the name they had become familiar with, probably since birth.
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122
Generally speaking, using the word 'toss' is regarded as obscene.
I will indeed have another cup of coffee and return to the real world, rather than that occupted by the 0.06% who soil this blog.
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message 127...
Strange then that the moderators do not share your interpretation.
I would be interested to be made aware of how you see the word as obscene.
I will quote from Roget's Thesaurus:
Toss...,
1: a small quantity
2: jumble
3: propel
4: oscillate
5: agitation
6: trifle
Obscene?, I think not, but it obviously demonstrates the focus of your mind.
Care to retract?
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PS to 128.....
I can also tell you that there are about thirty or more definitiions in the Oxford English Dictionary on Historical Principles, NONE of which comes anywhere near to obscenity.
As for your final remark about 0.6% 'soiling' this blog, would that be number of those forming the margin, by which the referendum in 1997 gave rise to the 'soiling' of Wales, down in the Bay of Pigs, by any chance?
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129,
Actually, he said 0.06%, which is the figure you claimed was the 1997 majority, least you got that figure right this time census man. Put your glasses on boyo
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message 130...
Just testing to see of he was awake, more or less following on to his inanity over obscenity.
Go back to sleep, you certainly do put out 'pure drivel' and not just 'again', but on a perpetual basis.....eh?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
122 Whatever your dictionary said, its colloquial meaning is insulting, the same as if someone was to call you a to$$er! (Not that I am - just making the point)
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133
Exactly!
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message 132...
It is you taht is the one needing pity.
I gave you a complete run down of definitions in both Thesaurus and Oxford English dictionary.
As I do not deal in the sort of gutter language you are obviously used to, I see no reason whatsoever why those, near enough FORTY, correct definitions should be usurped by the one obscene slant you seem to think should be placed upon it.
Even 'incorrect' colloquialisms would appear to be normal to you, whereas the normal person would take the definitions, or at least the first one I gave, as the correct one.
Pitiful indeed, but I do not waste my sympathy one one who cannot read unless sticking his own lurid imaginary meaning on a word.
Message 133,..
I am suprised that you, almost always one for correctness, would add your name to such a message.
What you may do in the privacy of your own seclusion is one thing, but not all are apt to behave in such a self gratifying manner, nor do all necessarily take a meaning from a comment that was not there to be taken. Just shows in what a warped way your mind works.
A touch of the Freudian I expect.
To$$er? what a delightful person you, and your co-conspirator must be in your lives.
It must show, in the use of such words, what you are prone to engage in.
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I know I'm as bad as anyone but unless we stop all this nonsense this blog is going to descend into the dark depths.
There was a time where one could find enlightenment, some new knowledge (Stoney's explation of the Latin origin of "Gwent" which was a surprise to me) and God help us all, it used to be quite funny at times.
Shall we all start again with some rules?
i) Civility.
ii) A gap of at least half hour between posts to allow considered observations.
iii) At least some attempt to avoid repetition.
iv) A ban on all posters with two x's in their names.
v) iv) was a joke.
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m ap exx,
Not sleeping just out getting a hair cut me ole china plate.
The quality of my drivel is equal to the inane content of your posts. You've been sprouting off about the same topics ad nauseum for the whole of the year I've been following Betsan, mainly due to boredom at work.
If you discover something else to debate or whinge about besides language I'll re-engage my brain.
Oh and by the way, I don't think you'll find many elitists in rural north wales, plenty of welsh speakers, but farmers and mountain men, no elitists.
You should go up there for an education, tis a lovely part of the world.
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136
I quite agree.
The problem is with those who insist on the earth being flat and the moon being made of cheese. They are in a 1997 time warp at a time when we need to talk about is the Wales to be.
Has any one read 'Will Britain Survive Beyond 2020?' by David Melding. This is written by a Conservative and one of the leading members of 'Just Say No' back in those days. He has since reconsidered his attitude towards devolution and now believes that for Britain to survive, real federalism is needed, i.e. real devolution for Wales.
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messages 137... and 138....
As long as I get less scurrilous respones, I am quite happy to discuss in a rational manner.
However, I do not, nor never have desparaged the language, only those who insist on using it to batter the non Cymry with it.
Nor have I ever mentioned north Wales as a retreat for language elitists. Only that those who feel that they have the right to control our every movement, and whose usual place of operation is Cardiff Bay, ie the Assembly WAG.
Now respond as you wish, but do not follow certain others in making lying commentary about my take on the language, or Wales even.
Especially do not become a member of that cabal who insist on making false statements re my input, I refer of course to Fi Fi, and the other chump, who takes great delight in adding his own interpretation, lurid as it is, to my words.
To Drivel, I can assure you I have spent the total time I ever wish to spend in north Wales. Three months working on Trawsfynnydd was more than enough to make me wish for a nuclear attack on that region.
Oh! but of course, I nearly forgot, your sheep are still wearing Geiger counters are they not.
They don't bleat, they go beep, beep beep.
No need to roast 'em, they're already done to a crisp so I hear.
Good old Russions, did it without the peripheral damage.
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Is that true Returnee? That's a remarkable change in attitude but attitudes must and usually do change with time.
A federal UK is realistically the ultimate solution.
Independence in terms of self determination but a federal and equal government to deal with common policy such as Defence, Immigration, etc.
An island the size of Britain with 3 independent countries would be hard to run without some kind of federalised integration/common policy agreements.
What interests me is the unionist view, and I'm not referring to anyone in particular but speaking generally, that on the day of independence for Wales or Scotland an imaginery wall would pop out of the ground and prevent travel and trade between the countries on this island. The thought of it is ludicrous but is seems to carry weight in certain minds.
My mind merely boggles! Has anyone else noticed that attitude?
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"However, I do not, nor never have desparaged the language, only those who insist on using it to batter the non Cymry with it."
Map - this at 2.25 today on the other thread:
"....using a useless language as their weapon of choice with which to beat and berate the rest of the greater majority."
"Useless" seems a term of disparagement to me - context doesn't come into that sentence. If you didn't intend to disparage the language then you need to be more careful about your post construction.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
139,
It was a Ukrainian reactor that went into meltdown and I challenge you to take your jokes about collatoral damage to the children of Chernobyl...
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...you insensitive amadan
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140
Indeed so PDA, here are two juicy snippets from the press release:
He argues that the sovereignties of each Home Nation should be recognised at the same time as allowing a continuing role for the wider British state. The best way to preserve Britain as a multinational state is to accept that the UK can no longer be based on tacit consent but requires a new settlement, he says. This settlement will need to be federal in character so that the sovereignties of the Home Nations and the UK state can be recognised in their respective jurisdictions.
The book includes a survey of Welsh Conservative attitudes to devolution and confronts the question Have we been anti-Welsh? Melding also traces his own development as a nationalist. Prior to the 1997 referendum he says his Welshness was in essence cultural, with Britishness providing his political identity. So I thought even in 1997 when voting No to devolution, although I was profoundly shaken by
the vote in Scotland which had already declared the Britain of 1707-1997 null and void. Today I believe that the Home Nations should have their political sovereignty properly recognised.
Ladies and gentlemen, we have something to discuss.
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message 140....
So you see federalism as the saviour of the British.
Now when that has been discussed previously, all you lot wanted was a separated and isolated Wales, and to shake off the big bad England.
Now it's ok to federalise.
That is what many have been saying on my side of the argument, but what your side cannot seem to understand is no matter which way the British state takes towards that end, it cannot be done in an instant, and therefore will require, as we have constantly stated, a reasonable period to achieve.
That is why we refuse to be called unionists, when in fact we are not particularly bothered either way, only that it should be done in a constructive and rational manner. Without the petty jingoism usually attached to the demands and claims of the nationalist committed.
Without the stupid pressures being enforced onto the majority here in Wales by a bunch of political illiterates, who I am certain will do their damndest to hold things up, for fear it will take away their little bit of power.
A unified and cooperative switch over to federalisation will take far less of a period, than doing it piecemeal, which can be the ONLY result of present policies.
Perhaps you will now take some time to think it out, and stop weeping and wailing of how those nasty English are, and have, been causing you all this bother, over the last 500 years or so.
Do you really believe that Westminster, or Europe, will take the slightest bit of notice of what has gone on in the past?
Of course they will not, all they will be interested in is 'can Wales cut the mustard?'
The answer will come as 'yes', as a part of the UK, regionalised or federated,... on it's own...no way.
For the simple reason, it has little to offer except a large tranche of labour, that cannot compete with low wage economies, elsewhere in the world.
We are all on the same side, but you peolpe just cannot, or more accurately, cannot see it
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with reference to my post 142, mappexx starts his previous post urging civilised comments before going on to wish atrocities on trawsfynydd. Sums you up boyo.
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Well said 145, i would have a clause built into this federal state that each nation member is obliged to provide a military defence of this island, each taking responsibility for their own territory but coming together in the event of an invasion.
Foreign jollies to foreign soils would then become strictly optional or undertaken as part of a wider UN mandate or as part of the propsed EU Defence Force.
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132
Four and a half hours after this was posted and four hours after it went on line, this was removed. Has somebody had a strop?
As we have (I hope) moved on from mud slinging, I will comment no further.
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message 141....
The language, beyond certain very small regions, and populations of the world has little in the way of usefulness. That is a statement of FACT, not disparaging in any way.
Proof can be obtained simply by attempting to hold a business meeting in Japan, Russia, Ghana, and the remaining two thirds of the world developed and developing world, using Cymraeg as your means of communication.
Now that may not be to your liking, and therefore I say 'useless' for blindingly obvious reasons.
Even in Wales, it is little more than a nuisance to the overwhelming majority.
Now do go on to show me how wrong I am. Please do. I am always ready to take up unknown facts.
I have taken care over my pre posting on this. Just in case you feel I have rattled it off, and posted it willy nilly.
Message 143....
What have the kids in Chernobyl to with the matter. I was referring to the fallout complications, admittedly jokingly, that occurred and are now ameliorating, in north, and parts of central Wales.
However, I failed to take into account that well known genetic fact, that Gogs have been born without a humour gene, the consequence of which, they just cannot take any form of goganiad..
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Fair does mappy you've attracted the attentions of the mob, good to see that you couldn't give a toss. I see that Melding, the Conservative AM for west Wales has been mentioned, why not mention that the three Conservative MPs hold completely opposite views? They want shot of the parasitic suckling pig on the bay.
I've read posts on this blog, that suggest increasing support for the greedy beastie? Let's all try and be honest, Welsh Labour rightly claim the credit for devolution, so if this devolution is so popular, why has their vote share crashed at a faster rate then elsewhere in the UK? So, I reckon that actual election results, are a more reliable poll than those conducted by the IWA in S4Cs staff canteen?
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M Ap Exx,
Are you a mod? You constantly seem able to get welsh words past their eyes.
It's just that you are not FUNNY :)
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#149
I made the complaint, I regarded your comment as extremely abusive.
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mapexx
Fundamental to the unwritten British constitution is the doctrine of Parliamentary sovereignty, according to which the statutes passed by Parliament are the UK's supreme and final source of law. As evidenced by the Blair government in 2005 which reformed the House of Lords without recourse to a referendum. It follows that Parliament can change the constitution simply by passing new Acts of Parliament.
Would you care to enlighten me quite where the 75% came into that equation here? That government as I stated was elected by just over 22% of the electorate and they have irrevocably changed the way in which we are governed. So a serious issue like our constitution needs 75% if you don't agree with it, but in fact can be changed by a simple majority in the HoC.
Time to take the blinkers off and learn a bit more about how things actually work.
Some others have been promoting a federal solution with 3 sovereign nations and a British state for defence etc. Would that be Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland with no English sovereignty? Sorry couldn't resist a facetious remark.
I can't really see federalism working very well, especially as the Scots would almost certainly require nuclear weapons and submarines to be removed from their territory. How long would the federal approach last if another Bliar took us into an Iraq situation again? It's nothing more than a trial seperation prior to reconciliation or divorce
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message 152...
And you are? How come, with that all important gene missing from your DNA?
Message 149.... again...
I initially laid complaint, as I told you, it was refused twice by the mods, but they obviously became concerned when yet another complained.
One, they may ignore, two, they will act upon. I presume, as my third complaint went over their heads to a higher level of moderation.
Whether it was that one, or Stoney's that tipped thy scales, is not in my purview.
What matters is, ultimately, it was moderated, for the immoderate comment.
Perhaps, in future, you will confine your remarks to reasonable rhetoric.
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153
But only as abusive as the original post. Definitions aside, the 'could not give a...' means only one thing.
Still it is interesting to see who is demanding censorship.
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154
Good point. There is one view that says Westminster is the seat of the English sovereign state because of the implicit tyrrany of the majority, but that is a clumsy one, because it overlooks the need to separate national and multi-national interests and concerns within the context of Britain. By all means make a separate English institution and have the four getting on with each other within a British context.
We need to push the debate onwards from pro or anti Nat / Welsh and so on, to looking at how and why these Isles will function in the coming decades.
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153 & 155
And on your side?
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153 & 155
And on your side?
Jack Wilkinson, and any other English speaking Brit.
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message 156....
As I already stated, the full comment would read,'Couldn't give a toss' meaning, as detailed from the Thesaurus....
.....'I couldn't give a small amount'....
It was simply your vile imagination that put a pornographic spin on it, and that others consequently followed your line, speaks volumes about their state of mental agility, also.
I couldn't care less what Your so called colloquial meaning represents, as I also told you, there were about six definitions from the Thesaurus, and well over thirty from the Oxford English Dictionary.
Nearly forty, none with that sort of implied meaning.
It is you that is in the wrong, but being stupidly stubborn, you cannot be gainsaid can you?
What is it with you, a Freudian complex maybe?
There is treatment available, pay a vist to your GP, for further advice.
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PS to that last one,
In contributing to this blog, you agree to accept the decision of the moderators, they, finally, opted to agree with me, that your comment was uncalled for, and immoderate. Hence it was canned.
You don't like that, then take yourself off to somewhere where your lurid mental gymnastics will be tolerated.
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160-161
Immoderate and inappropriate.
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160-161
Six hours ago, I said I was moving on from the tit for tat, but it countinues to pour over from the other side.
There is a hectoring and bullying tone here which I find rather obnoxious.
It is the fear that being confronted by logic brings. Hence the utter lack of any engagement in the points raised and the persual of any points and tactics which drive other points of view away.
This blog has been contaminated by the 0.06%.
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This blog has been contaminated by the 0.06%.
Pardon? Would you kindly state who these supposed contaminants are? Do you refer to British folk?
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Enough - Betsan - make some rules - this is just boring.
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An interesting take on logic .....
This blog has been contaminated by the 0.06%.
The 0.06% in the context of current Welsh politics represents the numerical majority at the last Welsh referendum.
Is the writer at #163 stating those that created the tiny minority are the contaminants of this blog, does the writer abuse his or her own support ?
The abuse was the word used to hide a meaning or expression that if made overtly would not have been allowed by the moderators. This is not censorship #156.
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Stoney - for the nth it was 0.6% not 0.06%.
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I am not getting bogged down in mudslinging and language prejudices. But David Meldings opnions are certainly worthy of discussion, whichever side of the divide you sit.
Speaking as a Separatist (someone who wants independence) I welcome Davids opinions, and agree with him that the current arrangements are unstable and will only hasten the breakup of the UK.
But then I am split - Part of me would agree with a federal solution as it will give Wales true internal sovereignty - But on the other hand I would be concerned that if this came about it would remove the main argument for independence at a stroke, so would defeat my cause.....
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169 Just thinking about something, is it about time we considered labelling the different factions, as the terms Nationalist and Unionist are too loose:
Separatist - wants independence from the UK
Federalist - wants internal sovereignty within the UK
Devolutionist - wants more local powers but with UK remaining sovereign
Centralist - wants all power excercised centrally
The problem is that while the first three could all be considered to be Nationalist, then so the last three could all be considered to be Unionist.
Any more shades of grey ??
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150 Map - calling a language useless and a nuisance is to disparage it. Veracity doesn't come into it (not that I agree with you of course). If you were to say that Gareth Davies was the worse outside half ever to play for Wales it might well be true but it's still disparaging.Do you sort of understand the concept? It aids comprehension and understanding if you use words that you understand.
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164 & 166
Contaminated by an absence of logic, a disinclination to engage in debate and a disregard for facts.
I rest my case.
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message 170...
If I have a chisel for making certain types of joint, (I am a joiner by trade) it is not necessary to use that chisel only for it's main purpose.
However should I wish to use that chisel for universal purposes, and it is unable to fulfil that unitarian requirement, then for that is it effectively useless.
That is the case with Cymraeg, it has a specific place, and although usable in a small way eleswhere, for ubiquity it is, effectively, 'useless'.
I cannot be held responsible for your non acceptence of the word, but like the other chap who can only see his own distorted definition of a remark, in the face of forty more precise and valid definitions, I am afraid you will have to take it as it comes.
Outside of Wales, and a few minor spots in south America, it is effectively 'useless'.
Do look up the word in the dictionary, you will find it does not suffer from a single minded definition as you appear to wish to apply it.
Below I will append a few definitions from Roget's Thesaurus, which may help clear the matter to you...
Useless:
1.powerless
2:superfluous
3:inexpedient
4:ineffectual
5:unusable (to the vast majority)
6:bneyond it's confined area, unfit for purpose
I will add a couple of my own...
1: immaterial
2: inapplicable,
and finally...
....not considered as common currency by the overwhelming majority of the population of Wales, therefore to that majority... unfit for purpose..
Now, if you see in any of that a matter of it being 'demonised' or made derogated, oir disparaged, then that is, as stated before, a matter for you, and is your privilege.
The only concept I understand is, that those who have a degree of fluency in any language will defend it against all and any perceived 'attack', be it on a generally simple basis, or from a more sustained quarter.
I do the first, for as I say, it's uselessness in general commerce and exotic conversational application.
I do not contribute to the second, as langauge, no matter which one, has a valid reason to exist.
But, (there is always a caveat), unless that language can be self sustaining, without subsidy or false means of support, then again, it is effectively useless.
As for nuisance, yes, that is also a valid critique.
Due to the falsity of subsidisation, and pressures from the supporters, fluent or not, of that language, it impacts on the lives of far more than it reasonably is entitled to impact upon. That makes it of nuisance value only, again, effectively making it useless.
Statements of fact, nothing derogatory or disparaging, meant or implied.
Now, do YOU understand?
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message 168....
Glad you now see the light at the end of the tunnel.
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173 - Not sure which tunnel you are in.....
I want independence, and see federalism as the only effective brake to breaking up the UK.
I see the current assymetric arrangements as unstable and likely to lead to a breakup, but I also see that a single centralised state is equally unstable, and possibly more so as it would fuel nationalist sentiment.
You should look on devolution as a pressure relief valve on a boiling kettle. If you tighten it down (by abolishing the Assembly) presure will increase until it blows.
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174. What are you on about Blackhead? What happens when the kettle blows?
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#167
Are you sure about the percentage. During the 1997 referendum, 1112117 people voted, there were 6721 people who represent the majority. By my calculation this equates to 0.006% of the total vote, approximately 0.0012% of the electorate. What exactly is your .....
Stoney - for the nth it was 0.6% not 0.06%.
Returnee, I generally go past your comments because I find them odd, I commented today quite out of character, I will do my best to continue the escape and evasion exercise.
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Re 175
waldiwrgwybedyn,
On a blog which attracts a number of strident, bordering on unpleasant contributors, you are quite sure of one of the top spots. I suppose that will please you, however.
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Impossible FIFi that accolade is surely yours followed closely by
returnee,blackhead,Dewi H.etc.etc.Now why don't you go out and play.
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#177
At least give the English speakers on this English language blog a clue.
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179.A very bad translation of gnatswatter.
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message 179...
Sorry to say it Stoney, but I must tell Fidy it looks like he threw up on the page.
What have you been on Fidy, old thing?
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Peace at last.
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179-182
Two and a half hours of bile. Not a single constructive comment, merely abuse.
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183. I've never been pulled up by the moderator.Have you?
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183
I have never made a complaint - I consider this the perogative of the coward. Again, a leaden refusal to enter into a debate. There is an astonising amount of abuse pouring out from the anti-brigade but they are extremely sensitive when it is meted out to them. I wonder why?
It is funny how postings 138 and 145 have been ignored, apart from a single snide aside.
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Re 180
Strange how waldiwrgwybedyn thinks that translating penddu makes him the cleverest and most humorous blogger on earth, but seems to get very annoyed - as any bully would - when he gets a taste of his own cheap medicine.
mapexx's short truce, when he showed some civility, didn't last very long did it! Shame. mapexx always insists that he only attacks people when they do it to him - well, nobody attacked him here. So there goes his excuse.
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Why should I debate anything with you? I don't agree with your postings,
I don't agree with your politic and I don't agree with your twisted logic end of.
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188
Don't forget, bullying and cowardice tend to go hand in hand. That certainly has been the way the anti-brigade work here.
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I dunno Stoney - the majority was 0.6% -a fact - what a dismal blog - Mapp - whatever our opposing views why not take advice on construction and civility - why be rude? Why not be concise? Like what's the point? Tell me something interesting and new?
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187
Then why bother writing in the first place?
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189
I think 187 says it all.
It is the herd mentality.
Meanwhile the other 85-90% of Wales gets on with the future.
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Stoney at 176 - understand what you've done - to get percebntage you need to multiply by 100 - gets your 0.006 to 0.6%.
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188. You don't get it.I'm a bilingual British citizen who speaks welsh
as a second language I live in the so called 'welsh speaking heartlands' but like many living here I don't agree with devolution ,I don't agree
with nats or their idealology and I want to maintain the union.I visit
this blog not to satisfy my 'morbid curiosity' but to keep in touch with
like minded people and as long as I don't offend the moderators I am
quite entitled to do so.Talking of herds you could say that I'm that
proverbial 'red rag' it certainly gets you and your ilk to revert to kind
'nasty little nats'.
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Boys - can you please stop the petty bickering - This is a blog for Welsh Politics, can we get back to discussing that subject. Otherwise I am going to have to do some work.....
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message 186...
Don't tell me Fifi that you also have had your humour genes removed, or were born without it.
My message to Stoney, AND you, was intended as a bit of fun.
But as usual you opt for the nasty side... yes?
# 189....
so what was rude in your eyes?
Message 188....
You have a damned cheek, you accuse others of posting unacceptable messages, and when that is successfully complained about for it's despicable content, you come back moaning about being bullied.. Dish it out but cannot take it..
THAT is the typical mark of a bully, not strident, severe, scathing, or sarcastic responses.
You come on the blog, throw your often almost inarticulate input in to the fray, and expect to escape unscathed?
Do behave yourself.
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Message 193....
That message should be flagged up, for the very reason it demonstrates, as we have been saying all along, that not all who utilise Cymraeg,and live in the heartlands of fluency, follow that nationalist nutty agenda, and see the phony political style adopted in their attempts to gain CONTROL of this region.
Well stated T'gnat, I hope you bring many more of your friends and neighbours along that practical and sensible path with you.
You certainly put quite a few who oppose our attitude to it all, well and truly in their place in your message.
Welcome to the 'right' side of the divide.
IN the words(slightly varied) of the Labour Party anthem...
" we'll keep the Red Rag flying here"
I wager even Stoney will be singing that after reading message 193.
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193 I dont agree with your political viewpoint but it is a valid one and I am happy and willing to discuss our opposing views.
Personally I am an English-speaking Welshman, originally from Bridgend, now residing in Cardiff - but I am a firm believer in Welsh Independence. I am not a member of Plaid, and my political beliefs are generally closer to the Conservatives (at least for economic issues).
So I dont fit in one of the pre-concieved boxes either.
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193
But the blog is intended for all shades of opinion.
195
Another bitter, hate curdled entry. I suggest you find a mirror.
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186.Clever and humorous hardly just 'courteous' to those contributors
who do not understand welsh.
196.We are the many not the few we will be there commeth the hour and
in the 'welsh speaking heartlands' too.
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message 198....
I am totally baffled how you see hatred, and bitterness in what is purely a reasonable commentary.. Am I not allowed to express my personal agreement with someone else?
What was that about bullying, in message 188 of yours, don't want to take your own advice though, do you?
It may pay dividends, to go back to your point of entry, and start all over.
I can assure you, your spite filled comments are to be generally disregarded for the nastiness they portray.
Further responses will rely on you becoming less of a tyrannical and unwarranted censor.
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198. You are becoming more morbid by the minute.
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200 & 201
I like your sense of humour.
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message 202...
Absolutely necessary when dealing with those with none.
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Maapex. Do you think the Welsh Audit Committee makes valid points on
LCO's.
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message 204...
As I wish to see the Assembly disbanded and done away with, as far as I am concerned it should not be entering into any such matters.
I do not follow any of any part of what is put up by any part of the Cardiff Bay menagerie.
Not that it really answers you query, but I am sure you get where I am coming from on the subject.
The more we enter discussion on the subject, the more we will get the nationalists attempting to try the limits of our patience, hence my attitude to the whole matter.
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205 Your views on this are well known, but adopting an ostrich-like pose will not make it go away.
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204 What did they say? Where was it reported?
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message 206...
Quite right Pen, but what WILL make it go away, is the activities by the likes of myself, Stoney, thegnatswatter, and all those who out there on the common ground of Wales, who are getting totally fed up with all the political machinations and plotting by a minority, to take over their, and our, home territory.
If I were emulating an ostrich, I would not be constantly attacking my opposition on here now would I.
Rather, I would be keeping a low profile, which of course would give free rein to the nationalists to ride roughshod over everyone else, would it not.
What is more, it would suit their grab for control of Wales, so much easier, for lack of opposition to their agenda.
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Can I express my disappointment
wrote Eurig of Caernarfon !
the disappointment was with the Western Mail, there is a system where on-line readers can reply and at times enter a dialog with others, much like a blog. His letter can be found at the bottom of the today's letters page, whilst the comments that cause great concern can be viewed under Wednesdays letters.
The man wishes to muzzle any opposition to his preferred social values, in fact he calls down the UN Charter of Human Rights upon the heads of the opposition.
Eurig's bone of contention is some people who read the Western Mail have no interest or ambition towards the Welsh language, and actively criticise its promotion by the Welsh Assembly. Personally I feel the Welsh language, as a topic of discussion, is past its sell by date, totally boring and as relevant to the future as a belief in fairies.
What I am concerned about is the way Eurig of Caernarfon attempts to bully a newspaper into censoring opposition to his personal eccentricity. And he uses an association as an Amnesty International spokesperson in Wales to elevate his status.
Well Eurig, democracy is more important than your peculiarities, I would remind you If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all. Noam Chomsky
How important is freedom of expression ?
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Just got back from Cornwall (lovely weather) with my family and catching up on things welsh but nothing much seems to have changed in 7 days. Its an amazing place is Cornwall as without an Assembly/Government the place seems to be working quite well. Stayed in small town with its own "hospital" for minor matters,refuse collected,children educated etc etc,with no clear evidence that poorer services provided to inhabitants without an overblown shambles running everything. Theres no doubt in 1999 we were sould a "pup" by the welsh political establishment/BBC Wales/S4C which has resulted in trully appaling third class (and barely that) getting their hands on public money to totally screw up welsh life at great cost. The NATS still aint happy,even though their "spokespersons" i.e HMJ seem to live on BBC Wales programmes. Keep going us British people and lets create and INDEPENDANT ANGLESEA where all the NATS can speak welsh to their hearts content and leave us very happy english speaking people alone.
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209. While I share your anger on this obvious threat to our rights and
freedoms may I suggest that it is nothing more than a publicity stunt and coincides with next weeks Eisteddfod. It is that period when the nats are at their nastiest and compete with each other for the title of the most anti- English and pro-language 'Man of the Maes'(field).They use this cultural celebration as a political platform and as displayed in 2001 when the Chairman of the Welsh Language Board John Elfed Jones likened the English to the human form of foot and mouth then it was Simon Glyn and his assault on English migration,and most recently we had the Clown Price and his plan to get rid of the Queen.These people are aware that the more sensational and extreme their claims the more publicity they get from a Cardiff based media who are desperately searching for a nationalistic story.No doubt Betsan will be there on the field possibly interviewing Eurig of Caernafon. Mind you I wouldn't rule out a late and more sensational offering from Adam Price next week.
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message 210...
Yup! welcome back to the land of milk the money.
Strange that Cornwall is managuing OK, without a Disaster, sorry... Assembly, running things
It's got a tad quiet over the last 24 hours, and a bit of an acid injection was certainly required.
Hopefully you will provide.
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The mounting reports all agreeing that the Barnett system for calculating the Assembly Governments block grant has been short-changing Wales, and should be scrapped and replaced with a system that recognises need, is proving embarrassing for the most recent Secretaries of State for Wales.
They are wriggling on a hook of the question, if the 30-year-old Barnett has been so bad for Wales, especially over the last 12 years of Labour in office at Westminster, why havent they been more pro-active in pressing for a change to the system?
The present Secretary of State for Wales, Peter Hain, responded to this question over the weekend by denying that Wales had lost out. He claimed last weeks report by the expert Holtham Commission, set up by the Assembly Government, had concluded that up to now the system had been broadly fair to Wales. At the same time he agreed that it looked as though Wales would lose out in future and that, as a result, the Barnett formula, which crudely allocates money on the basis of a head count, would have to be revisited.
Yet this response, given in an interview with Radio Wales, simply ignored that the Holtham Commission calculated that Wales was currently losing out by £300 million a year and many observers believe that the figure is much higher.
Meanwhile, the minutes of evidence of last weeks high-powered report into the Barnett formula by the House of Lords Committee chaired by Lord Richard, finds his predecessor as Secretary of State for Wales, Paul Murphy, having a tough time claiming that the Barnett formula was actually the best solution for Wales. On 1 April this year, responding to a question from Lord Richard, he declared:
Over 12 years on and off I have lived with this Formula and, although there have been ups and downs, I cannot think of a better one.. I suppose we will come later on to the detailed question of needs formula, but I think it has met the needs, certainly in terms of the country I represent around the Cabinet table My job is to ensure we get the best possible deal for those territories and countries that we represent around the table [he was accompanied by the Secretaries of State for Scotland and Northern Ireland], and certainly from the Devolved Administrations point of view, they have done pretty well out of the system.
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209
Chomsky has some fascinating ideas about democracy. Some worthy, some rather alarming - especially when you look at his missives in the 1960s and 1970s. I am not sure about this one - this blog system can be a minefield when it comes to quotation marks.
210
Cornwall is a fine place, as long as you can get there. You must know every back lane to dodge the traffic and have a fine pair of ear-muffs (selective) to avoid the braying horrays.
The more localism the better I say when it comes to services. That is a point of view that transcends debates at the national level, Wales, UK or EU.
The crying shame of the past decade has been the closure of village schools, turning many places I know from settlements which rejoiced to the sound of children playing to clusters of houses where people come to mooch about and die. That sounds a bit morbid, but it is not too far off the mark.
This is a real democratic issue - what do we want to see out money spent on and where. Again, it transcends debates about devolution and independence. On which level does society matter to us?
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message 214...
I don't know if you are just being over emotive, or are just simply out of touch with modern demographic trends.
"The crying shame of the past decade has been the closure of village schools, turning many places I know from settlements which rejoiced to the sound of children playing to clusters of houses where people come to mooch about and die. That sounds a bit morbid, but it is not too far off the mark."
The birth rate in most areas, (except that of the Muslim population, which is averaging something like 6 kids per family) is dropping well below the replacement or stabilising rate. The current birth rate for white ethnics in Britain is now down to about 1 per family.
For stabilisation, it has to be at least 2.4 per family.
At the same time, the baby boomers of the post war period now, now mostly drawing their pensions, outnumber the other groups, and the number of us wrinkles is growing.
Schools, or the authorities that run them, have no option but for the schools to be closed. They cannot be kept open with full teaching staffs to look after diminishing class sizes.
In many rural schools, pupil numbers can be counted on one hand.
At the same time the grey brigade is increasing to numbers that will cause a breakdown of the pension system, unless retirement ages are raised. Which is what the government is in the process of so doing.
It all takes time, and the education authorities have hung on to far too many schools, well past their die date, but ever more rapidly that is seen to be false policy, and the less populated ones just have to go.
This will happen for a few years, until our numbers are also diminished by attrition, (death), and schools will, maybe, then reopened to care for the growing numbers of immigrant ethnic kids. Who will soon outnumber our own in the birthrate race.
Unless of course we bring back harder to obtain divorce, maybe a reduction in women in the work place, and financial aid, grants etc,to encourage more kids to be born
We should really be grateful for the high numbers of unmarried teens who are producing, they are actually our future. They have also held up the minuscule birthrates that the more,so called responsible, folk have allowed to fall to dangerous levels.
We, those who have passed the baby making days, can do no more, realistically speaking, and marriage seems to be an unwelcome state to get into these days. So someone has to replenish our ethnic stock.
Maybe that is why the state has not done anything serious to discourage underage sex and teen-aged motherhood, despite all the talk from various government departments.
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215
A bit of both - 'human kind cannot bear / very much reality' (Eliot). Mind you, if our future is one girded from the loins (as Evelyn Waugh would say) from unmarried teenagers, then our future 'will be an interesting one' as Trotsky would have said.
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Cornwall doing well eh?.....GDP 62% of UK average....
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217
It would be interesting to know how much of that is accounted for by tourism.
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#210 Igotitallwrongsorry ...... you wrote ......
There's no doubt in 1999 we were sold a "pup"
I think, in view of the very small minority that achieved the constitutional change, 6721 votes decided the outcome, the Welsh Assembly Government might be termed ......
..... the tyranny of six thousand "
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212. Thanks for welcome to the land of milk and honey (for the momement anyway). 213. What a "surprise" in that a body set up by WAG comes up with a report that requires England to stump up more money from taxpayers to WAG who can then spend it on "projects" that keep mickey mouse politicians in their jobs. At the same time part of WAG (Self Independance Party)is actively seeking to seperate wales from england as we could do better on our own. Its like the Mad Hatters Tea Party really.You only have to look at wales (the bit that i live in SE Wales)to see the huge gaps in wealth between areas like Cowbridge/Monmouth/Llandaff and Valleys to see impact of huge public sector salaries of employees living in former and not latter. You could argue that the excess of public money is actually causing the further disintergration of welsh society,rather than bringing it closer. 217. Who said Cornwall was "doing well"?.Plainly after you leave M5 at Exeter you going into an almost pre industrial area with a declining agricultural sector and almost unsustainable dependance on tourism so its economic performance is bound to be very very poor. In speaking to locals and retirees down there they seemed to like the place and accepted that it was a "backwater",however it didnt have the inherent problems that our multi racial/religious/violent cities have. The owners of cottage we stayed at accepted that their children would be going to University and not coming back but were going into brave new world,inother words realists. 218. A fantastic amount of economic activity in Cornwall is generated by tourism in season,but from October to March it basically shuts down. 219. Your quite right in the extremely narrow majority for "devo" in numbers who voted which was in itself a disaster for democracy,but if you do "calculation" as I've done on voting patterns and transfer that to electoral rolls then there was an "inherent" majority against setting up of this gang down the Bay. In conclusion the people I met in pubs/superstores etc seemed very happy/content in comparision to what I see around me,even though we've got an Assembly of "all the talents",including politicians who wish to seperate me from UK and force me into welsh speaking/nuclear free/GM free/pacifist/irrelevance. We must STAND and FIGHT and take on seperatists wherever they are. Boot out the NATS.
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And of course Cornwall has a very strong movement for devolution. It is a fellow Celtic country and suffers from its neglect by the central governemnt.
Strange that this "inherent" anti devolution majority in Wales fails to show up in any opinion polls or in the votes of the people when asked. Where is the evidence for it. Where is the evidence that Rhodri Morgan want Wales to become independent? The answer of course is that there is none, but some people seem to work themselves up into a froth of indignation and make wild statements - none of which can be backed up by any real evidence.
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message 213....
Extract....
"....Yet this response, given in an interview with Radio Wales, simply ignored that the Holtham Commission calculated that Wales was currently losing out by 300 million a year and many observers believe that the figure is much higher....."
Bit of a coincidence that 300 millions is apparently the running costs of the Assembly/WAG.
How to retain that 300 millions? Simple mathematics... close down that squandering mess in Cardiff Bay.
300 millions saved, at a stroke.
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#221 Lyn_Thomas .....
Your .....
Celtic country
...... should have been county.
Is this another attempt by a Celtic Tyranny to re-draw the map of Great Britain, or possibly re-write social history to create disorder.
Interesting, your .....
none of which can be backed up by any real evidence.
Similar was said by Churchill's opponents during the 1930's, it was fortunate that Winston was not driven from his threat perception.
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221. Lyn you need to take a holiday in Cornwall as if you think of it as a "fellow country" then you are delusional like a lot of welsh nats or fellow travellers.The "inherent" views of people was based on actual voting patterns in 1998/99 and not these mythical opinion polls paid for by public money on future of welsh governance,or lack of it. We'll see what happens in next 10 years with the drastic cuts inpublic expenditure in wales and King Rhodri's wish to re-engineer the public sector to protect the "vulnerable" whoever they might be. The people who have worked all their lives and saved a bit,own homes and wish to pass on to their "working" children are going to be hammered by the socialists who run wales. I have never stated that King Rhodri wants welsh independance but he does seem very happy with that gang of Plaid Cymru who do want independance and should never be in any position of governing me as I hate every bone in their body. If they want independance in North West Wales then I'll give it to them and good riddance and we'll retain our anglo/welsh heritage with joy.Quite right Mapexx in that with all that additional cost in Bay of Insanity where is the EVIDENCE of increased performance/production from public sector in little wales!!!
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223 & 224
Cornwall may be a country - it is the only part of Europe (apart from the Vatican City) where Latin and classical Greek are widely understood and it is split into various regions: [1] High or Upper Cornwall (sub tribes - Old Etonians, Harrovians, Amplefordians and their sister tribes from St Mary's Wantage & Ascot and St Swithins), [2] The Opidia (sub tribes - Old Westminsters and their sister tribes the Old Paulinas and God & Lattys), [3] The Classical Remove (sub tribes dominated by Old Wykemists and Wycombe Abesses), [4] Lower Cornwall (sub tribes hard to distinguish, but characterised by semi nomadic groups from Radley, Gordonstroum, Stoneyhurst, Stowe and Milton Abbey) and [5] The Fringe, who cough and mutter MPSIA ('minor public school I'm afraid') and are regarded as NQOOUMD ('Not Quite One Of Us, My Dear'). There are plenty of other characteristics, especially in terms of behaviour and nocturnal rituals. As a 'compo' I sometimes wich I had done a 'doc' in anthropology.
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215
This posting might inadvertently deal with the problem. I suspect your average Zanu Labour supporter would have kittens reading such lustily un PC thoughts. Given that they are all animal rights fanatics, they will not be able to distinguish between kittens and babies and ergo the shires will be repopulated.
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219
The tyranny of the six thousand? This sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. It begs two questions [1] Who and [2] Why.
I rule out the Masons because The United Grand Lodge of England includes Wales (but not in its name) and has a Unionist outlook.
The Roise Croix, on the other hand has The Grand Chapter of England & Wales. Perhaps this is an allusion to the Roscurians and the Illuminati.
As to the matter why, it is harder to say. The point about conspiracies is that truth is greater than fiction. At the moment, I incline to believe that these societies want Wales as a base. It is self-sufficient in water and the lamb is pretty good as well. Plenty of chappies wandering round in robes means that they will not stand out from the crowd.
Now, where is my copy of Forcault's Pendulum?
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220
I'm not too sure about Genetically Modified Orgasms. I can imagine all sorts of mischief springing out of one of them.
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222
Perhaps
"From Celtic Tiger to Tyranny
The Fringe has got it in for me"
Or (misquoting Spike Milligan)
"Celtic Tyger burning bright
Watch out! You'll set the banks alight!"
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Hi Betsan - Hope you and your family enjoyed your holiday in Pembrokeshire - "Little England Beyond Wales"
I've been away for a bit but my friends tell me the grockels have been as numerous as ever so the weather can't have driven too many away.
Unsurprising given our incredible scenery and wonderful people, with a heritage and culture going back many centuries before the Romans.
We have a proud history of fighting off bands of marauding Celts.
Not always successfully, in the 13 century Llewellyn did serious mischief to Tenby and Wizzo's Castle in Roose - never mind they were driven off and within 25 years the place was rebuilt.
Its a pity the Nat's and Assembly are working so hard to destroy our culture and replace it with the standard required vision of what being Welsh is.
Still Lyn's comment at 221 suggesting Cornwall should have home rule may give us an opportunity.
How about home rule for Pembrokeshire - we have an excellent County Council, run as it always has been by Independents - delivering the lowest Council Tax in the UK.
They could easily take over the devolved powers, their track record is such that they would do an excellent job - they certainly couldn't do worse than the Assembly. Of course we would remain part of the UK.
We would decide where the money needed to be spent, how the infrastructure was developed, what language our children are taught, save millions in not having the translation administration that duplicates everything, signage, paperwork, even jobs.
Who knows perhaps Monmouthshire may wish to join in. I'm certain there will be a few others.
The Assembly has had its day - it doesn't work, by any measure it's failing Wales, wasting millions, and its language and cultural policies are seriously divisive.
Time to get rid of it, replace it with a system that works for the people.
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230
Are you 'up there' or 'down below'?
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South of the Lansker!! :)
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Well said and welcome back West-Wales.
There has been a recent suggestion to revert to the old 10 counties, which might fit the Pembrokeshire model, and I see there are only four fleas in the shiny coat of good governance in your neck of the woods, the tail will not be wagging the Pembrokeshire dog.
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232
I thought so!!
Pembs is a first rate county with a first rate council. But it indeed is two places. When our first child was born at Withybush, they had two maternity wards - one for the north and one for the south.
After UDI, please be gentle with the wild northerners and their strange ways. The Presceli and Frenni schools are truly wonderful. Academic powerhouses, strong on sport and culture and over-subscribed. They work because of the way they are.
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message 230...
Hi Westy, back for more of your crushing blows, and a very welcome return too.
You may recall,(was it one here, or Talk Wales?) I did ask why, if Wales was to be hived off from it's neighbour, should not Monmouthshire/Gwent, not follow suit, and opt to be independent of the 'independent' new region......Cymru???.
Considering that the whole of our area is, within a couple of percent, solid English language based, with a 'culture' exactly identical to it's eastern cross border connection.
By extension, if the Nat's wish to have their own way, maybe those other parts of Wales, which do not necessarily follow the Nationalist agenda, may also call for their own 'independence'.
I suspect however that the Nat's will detect OUR agenda, in demanding such a position, in that we are simply demanding, as they are apt to demand, we stay where we are, as they head for the hills.
But, by all means Pembs, go for it, I am sure Gwent will stand shoulder to shoulder with you, in that stand off situation.
Then again, our other compat in the north, Mr Gnatty, message 193, and the others, may have been counted into those totals the Nats state are FOR independence, but he put them right on that conception, in no uncertain terms, and in passing, implied he was not alone in both disappointment in the last ten years, and his conclusion that those Nats are enemies of his homeland.
May the numbers grow, until we get our region back from the control freaks who currently think they have whatever it takes to run our territory.
Back to 'independent local authority control.
Whey! Hey! for city, town and county.
'Bye 'Bye Assembly.
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Welcome back West Wales
Devolution was supposed to bring decision making closer to the people. Ministers from both the Assembly and Parliament are currently holding meetings in Mid Wales discussing Local Government reorganisation. The only people who have not been informed of the discussions are the county councillors. Just goes to prove devolution is being used to centralise decision making, rendering devolution in my eyes an expensive waste of time something ordinary people can ill-afford.
I am sure Lyn Thomas can update us all on the latest developments regarding this matter.
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Really, what meating?
My view is that the current settlement is too narrow, too small councils in many areas, but the problem of mid and West Wales with a large area and small population. Personally I would have been happy with a smaller number of larger councils, and maybe retaining a two tier structure in West and Mid Wales. Maybe merge Ynys Mon and Gwynedd, Conwy and Denbighsire, Wrexham and Flintshire as unitary authorities, The Vale of Glamorgan and Bridgend, Cardiff, Newport, Torfaen and Monmouthshire, Caerphilly and Blaenau Gwent, Merthyr and RCT... Leaving a Mid and West Wales encompassing the old Dyfed and Powys, with district councills based on the four present counties (Powys I'd split into Montgomery and a Brecon and Radnor district). Id strengthen Community Councils and create them in those urban areas where they don't currently exist. That would give us 9 Unitary Authorities and one most purpose authority with 5 districs - just to make life easier the district councillors for those 5 districts would be the ones elected to the Mid and West Wales regional authority. Id elect them all using multi member wards using STV. I would fund them mainly from a local income tax, replacing the unfair Council tax and correspondingly reduce UK income tax. They would also gain income from an equalisation grant from the National Assembly.
As for Pembroke being independent run, not really, given that the independent group that runs the council is a group that vote on block and behave exactly like a political party, though there are some true independents there.
Cornwall is a Celtic Country as much as some would like to deny that, and why is it, because of its history and because the people there believe it to be. Support for Devolution is quite strong there and I have been there on holiday and love the place.
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Oh and I forgot the last local government reorganisation was carried out without any meaningful consultation and was imposed on us by a conservative government against the opposition of the existing local authorities. When and if we have any local government reorganisation then I expect to see it fully debated on and voted on by the elected representatives of the people of Wales and no other authority external to Wales.
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Mapexx - I'm from Gwent and I'm Welsh -if you want to be English why not move? - you want Welsh speakers to move to the "heartland" so why don't you reciprocate?
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How does that work with the British who wish to remain British in the British Isles, Great Britain, or in the United Kingdom if it's a preferred label.
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Message 239....
AS the generally accepted number here in Gwent area who are supposed to be fluent in Cymraeg is about 2 or 3%, (check that with the government)
And as it is you who wish to force the 97% into your stupid regime, how about you up sticks and go to the Cymraeg heartlands, where you may do T'gnat a favour and swap homes with him.
You will then not be submerged in a morass of Anglo Welsh(not Cymraeg) you will be able to chat away to your hearts content in your favoured language.
But that may not suit him eh?. He has already stated he does not wish to be under the control of the Assembly/WAG, and he knows many more in that heartland who feel the same,
It seems you will have to put up with us Anglo Welsh pal, we are here and here we stay, living our Brit lifestyle, no Cymraeg to speak of, and I am sorry to say to you,...Tough!
You will soon discover that what you wish for is about to be shelved, done away with, permanently.
Like it or lump it, you either stay put, and go with the flow, or take off to where your phony culture and useless language hold sway.
Believe me, it certainly is not anywhere along the south Wales coastal belt.
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I suspect that all the independent councils and so on might need some economies of scale and so on. They will come up with a brand name - Wales.
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Hi everyone, just found this blog, been reading through the comments. Some crazy stuff. I'm from Bridgend, no cymro thats for sure, but when I read people saying things such as, "Like it or lump it, you either stay put, and go with the flow, or take off to where your phony culture and useless language hold sway" I do get a bit alarmed. That's nuts! I'm not that into politics really, but any idiot can see that that kind of language is dangerous.
If someone's culture is judged to be phony, and his language useless, what does that leave him? Not much.
I know this is the internet and lunatics abound, but c'mon! Love thy neighbour! Or if you can't love at least don't be a fascist.
Over and out
taraa
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Monmouthshire's been mentioned by several others, so I feel entitled to join in. English Monmouthshire was not ceded to Wales because of some newly discovered legality. Nothing as straightforward as that, Welsh Labour Mps, convinced Parliament it was the overwhelming will of the people. Unfortunately the people didn't know it was happening, we also didn't know that Plaid were backing them. We also didn't know that Llafur and Plaid were planning devolution between them, but we certainly know now. Llafur is not the party of the English speaking working classes, their devolution malarkey, has created a mass of middle class type careers for middle class, proper Welsh Rhodri types.
There was nothing ambiguous in the 1535 Act that created five new counties.
http://owain.vaughan.com/1535c26/
Nothing ambiguous about the 1542 Act, that divided Wales into 12 shires, Monmouthshire which would have made it 13 shires, was firmly located in England.
http://owain.vaughan.com/1542c26/
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243
"I know this is the internet and lunatics abound, but c'mon! Love thy neighbour! Or if you can't love at least don't be a fascist"
You have stumbled across a greater truth than you realise...
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244
Please tell the boys from Ponty they should have been playing for England all the time.
"Up and under here we go
I'ts the song of the public school front row"
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"phony culture and useless language" and there we have you Mapexx decrying you are dispareging Welsh. It's sad you despise your own heritage. It;s boring you do it at so much length. I'm bored stiff at your input to this blog - why do you think that repetition is useful?
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245:
"'I know this is the internet and lunatics abound, but c'mon! Love thy neighbour! Or if you can't love at least don't be a fascist'
You have stumbled across a greater truth than you realise..."
Yes Grasshopper, this is true. More true than even you realise...
As the sorrowful sage Khayyam cautions us, "Only a hairs breadth separates the false from the true."
Do you also believe, like the other guy above, that its ok to declare cultures phony and languages useless?
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message 247....
I have already explained to you the exactitude of the expression useless when applied to the Cymraeg. I will not bother going over it again.
But 'culture' is another matter.
I have asked interminably, for some YEARS now, for a run down on what you and others consider Cymraeg culture..
The usual response is to mention Eisteddfod, and Urdd. Both of which were 'invented' not so long ago, relatively speaking.
Therefore, when taken by the throat and shaken, all that comes out is a big nothing in the way of demonstrating what 'culture' is available.
I also referred to the 'cultural' background of my home region, the Gwent area. This in common with the vast majority of the whole of Wales and the rst of the UK,reflects that of basically the western world.
American much of it nowadys it may be, but we supply, along with the rest of our European neighbours, much of what is percieved as 'culture' in Wales.
There is not a shred of difference, apart from some local customs, between any part of the UK, and our general Anglo Welsh 'culture'.
A few more esoteric matters exist with clothing, and maybe the odd musical instrument, pipes and harps, but as for the rest, the whole regional gamut is virtually identical.
What culture that may be remnant of medieval times, is hardly noticeable outside of academia, on the street, it is non existent.
Of course you are at liberty to direct me to any of this invisible culture that presents here in the south Wales coastal belt. Those previously mentioned 'invented' occurences excepted.
Message 243...
'Suddenly appearing surfer', I suggest before you attempt to take me down a peg, you read the message previous to mine, where you will see I was directed to exit my home and head for other regions, my response was to turn that direction back to where it came from. And then some.
In doing that, the writer invited the response he got, he knew quite well what sort of response he would get, so if you don't mind, no sympathetic message for him, he is as hard, as you appear soft.
He comes from the nationalist side of the argument, and I have no intention of respecting his opposing messages.
He does not respect mine, in fact with his take on both his political aspirations through the Assembly, and his promoting the enforcement of the language into our everyday life, where it generally is not wanted or welcome, he is doing his damndest to make mine, and everyone else's life uncomfortable.
No one is stopping him and his fellow Cymry doing their own thing, but we will NOT have his thing thrust down our throats, and having it paid for out of taxation that is more valuable if used elsewhere.
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Dewi-H hi :) but you say at 247
It's sad you despise your own heritage
While it may be your heritage it certainly isn't mine, or that of my ancestors.
And there in lies the problem, - why not let us celebrate our heritage, you celebrate yours.
Why enforce your culture on us, we want to enjoy our own!!!
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248
Greetings Sandunesurfer
Just to be clear, I was heartily agreeing with you about tone and tenor. I was also alluding to some sentiments previously expressed by some here which make your comments far more telling than you may have realised.
Culture
I believe that Welsh culture and Anglo Welsh culture are valid in European and indeed a global context.
For a small nation, Wales has produced great poetry in Welsh since 550 and in English since c1480, but most significantly so in the past century.
I will not take this further for now, because I can hear the howls of derision. I merely leave it to the poets, the writers, the musicians, the artists and the singers and musicians, the actors and actresses and how they have been received and perceived outside these isles.
From Ceri Matthews & Tom Jones to Dafydd ap Gwilym and RS Thomas our cultural heritage is valid, significant and well worth engaging with.
Eisteddfodau are a means of conveying culture, rather than an end in themselves. They they are well supported (I am talking in a European context here - and again from a wider perspective) across all levels of society gives them a legitimacy. That they are well supported also hints to their meaning something to people.
The dragon speaks with two tongues.
The visual culture is also not inconsiderable.
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250
Enjoy!
But also embrace.
You will be suprised how cultures mix and indeed draw from each other, as the waters that flow to the sea.
Half the fun of Pembs culture is its admisxure, the sense of borders and boundaries.
Don't impose, agreed. But dont ignor either; tread lightly back and forth across the Lansker Line.
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Landsker or Siegfried line one wonders, when contemplating the governance of Wales with its Governments stated intentions, a question of significance, particularly when the unelected quangos are included in the equation.
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message 251.....
Would be so good as to define for everyone's clarity how the hell Cerys Matthews Tom Jones, and all the rest, represent Welsh, or Cymry culture?
As I, and obviously the rest of the non Cymraeg world see those people, they are just artiste/performers on the world pop scene.
Not representative of Welsh 'culture', they just happen to come from Wales..
As for the poetry and any other literature you have mentioned, please elucidate,... unless deliberately put into the public eye, and ear, on TV or radio, where may it be seen or heard outside of archives?
Or, as I put it before...academia.
As I also stated, the Welsh, or at least the massive majority, would not know this 'cultural' aspect of their homeland, unless it was placed in front of them and described as what it is supposed to be.
In other words it is 'invisble', as stated.
Yes, eisteddfordau may well be well attended, but by the exclusive use of a single language on the maes, it is hardly likley to engender a take up of that language by third party nationals, be they English, Japanese or Albanians.
The international Llangollen would bring in performers from across the world, if it was arranged to take place in outer Mongolia, or Timbuktu, that it is held in Wales is a matter of geographical fact, akin to the Cannes Film Festival, not Welsh culture.
No more than the Royal Welsh Agriculture show is Welsh 'culture'.
Identical events take place all over the UK, and Europe, America, and the rest of the world, so nothing unique there..
They are organised and held in Wales, yes indeed, but if they were cancelled, they would not detract from Welsh 'culture' one bit, and would probably be missed more by the international participants, more than by the majority of the population, here in Wales.
For any culture to be prominent, it has to be USED by the majority, on a regular basis as part of their everyday life, not dragged out into the sunshine every now and again, given a dusting off, and a lot of MONEY, to ensure it's success at that moment.
That is how so called Welsh 'culture' comes across, as a very exclusive matter, and usually at a great cost to the taxpayer.
So, as I have asked before, to anyone who would care to give a suitable and fulfilling answer, just what is, and where can be found this Welsh 'culture' you are on about?
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244 JW is still peddling his failed theory.
FACT 1: The Welsh county of Monmouthshire was created by the statute of Rhuddlan in 1284.
FACT 2: Monmouthshire was confirmed as one of the 13 counties of Wales by the first Act of Union in 1535.
FACT 3: The second act of Union of 1542 placed Monmouthshire in a legal circuit with two English counties. It was this ambiguity which led to the confused status of Monmouthshire.
FACT 4: The Local Government Act of 1974 reconfirmed GWENT (Monmoutshire) as being a county of Wales. This removed the confusion.
The people of Monmouthshire/Gwent have always considered themselves as Welsh (apart from a very small minority) - and Monmouthshire has always been adminstrated as part of Wales by using the clumsy 'Wales and Monmouthshire' title, until the Local Government Act tidied up this anomaly.
The English Democrats put up candidates in part of the county in the WA elections to campaign for a referendum to transfer Monmouthshire to England. They managed 2,000 votes in a population of around 500,000. Hardly a ringing endorsement.
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254 Map, while we are it please define British and/or English culture....
Hmm... love Indian Curry, drink Australian lager, drive Japanese cars, listen to American music, take Spanish holidays, .....oh and love Morris dancing.
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To West Wales - it's possible to enjoy both cultures. I do. L love South Pembs - was there for a wedding last summer - the architecture of the small churches dotted around the rural villages is splendid - as is the story of the plantation and the Cambro-Norman IRish adventures
To Mapexx - you ask how the hell Cerys Mathews represents Welsh culture?
Answer -perfectly! - in both of our cherished languages.
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247. Boring to you on the dark side of the divide but smack on from we are sitting enjoying a read only position. Thanks to Maapex us less
articulate but like minded supporters can sit back and relax as he puts
you lot to the proverbial sword once again.
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message 256...
A nice try Pen... but funnily enough you have actually hit the nail on the head.
....Hmm... love Indian Curry, drink Australian lager, drive Japanese cars, listen to American music, take Spanish holidays, .....oh and love Morris dancing......
Where do you want to go next?
But as you travel, take on board the fact that British culture, not English as such, which embraces all manner of literature, music, dance, film, theatre, to list but a few, has spanned the world.
Russia adores Burns, the globe took to Shakespeare, our classical dance, and and composers, both classical and popular, even the frivolous, stand alongside those greats from all over the world, our painters rank with those of global importance, our actors,singers, directors and theatrical impresarios have carved a very substantial slot in Hollywood, Broadway, London NW York Moscow, and everywhere else.
That is just a small resume of British culture.
Taken individually, Welsh 'culture' can hardly hold a candle to the massive list, much of which I have left out.
Most of the list not mentioned, appears daily, in all walks of our British life, through film, TV, music and other means. I see little in the way of Welsh culture in my daily life, or it would seem, in the daily lives of the greater mass of the Welsh population.
I agree much of the output, could be and should be consigned to the trash can, but the same can be said for that in Wales.
Message 257...
Just because C Matthews can sing in two defined languages, does not make for anything cultural. It does however demonstrate she is dually capable in language.
Maybe she can cook, and sew also, perhaps do some DIY, as asked, what culture are you talking about?
However, utilising those two languages in her repertoire, does not make for anything special, as far as 'culture' is concerned, no matter how good, bad, or indifferent, her artistic performance.
No more than if someone sang Sospan Fach in Urdu, or Mandarin.
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The nats are missing the point as usual, those links to the actual Acts I posted, are not my point of view, they were the view of the Parliament of Henry V111.
It took another Act of Parliament, in 1972 to cede it to Wales, this was due to pressure from nationalistic Welsh Labour MPs, acting without a care for those who considered themselves to be English.
It was a sly secret political machination, which had no impact on English folk until the act of devolution. But now we know how nationalistic and language crazed King Rhodri and his mob are!!. It matters!!
That silly attempt of using the barking mad anti-Brits of the EDP, as some kind of poll on the views of English folk in Monmouthshire? Most Monmouthshire folk are British.
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254
Sorry, but this is a bit embarrasing. I am truying to show ways which these issues can be understood and addressed.
The singers - they speak for themselves.
Amongst people who regard culture as culture, there is not an issue here. In other words using the correct definitions of culture (which can involve academics, as they have a voice just as we do) I am engaging with the subject as it is intended to be engaged with.
I would suggest you read Dai Smith and Raymond Williams on the matter for a start. There is no doubt about their South Welsh credentials in any sense.
Then go on to Cwmardy and We Live for placing Welsh industrial popular culture in its socio political context.
Plenty to read, plenty to learn about, plenty to enjoy.
Be happy, be positive!
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260 (and 244)
Please tell the boys from Ponty they should have been playing for England all the time. Presumably Max Boyce would have sung:
"Up and under here we go
I'ts the song of the public school front row"
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260
Who is Henry V111?
Is he by any chance related to Henry VIII or is he one of those rather odd French monarchs?
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Returnee at 234
You rightly point out Pembs is a first rate county with a first rate council But it indeed is two places. North of the landsker there is a different attitude and feel to society, where occasionally one hears the Celtic language spoken, even the local accent is different
In 252 you add Half the fun of Pembs culture is its admixture, the sense of borders and boundaries.
Don't impose, agreed. But don't ignore either; tread lightly back and forth across the Lansker Line.
This comment I, and I'm sure many others, strongly agree with - the problem is that South of the Lansker we are having our culture and heritage destroyed.
The steam roller of the Assemblies Cultural program and the language fanatics headed by the WLB are making sure of that.
We don't want our place names changed, bilingual signs giving precedence to Welsh, Local government forced to use the Welsh language, children forced to learn Welsh and Welsh Culture at school while our own heritage and history ignored or twisted to suit the Celtic agenda.
Nor do we want our work force excluded from jobs in the public sector because they do not speak Welsh.
Jobs at County hall and Administration/domestic work at Withybush Hospital come front loaded with the requirement that preference is given to Welsh speakers - This in "Little England Beyond Wales" where less than 5% speak Welsh. So these jobs tend to go to people from outside the County
In 234 you point out The Presceli and Frenni schools are truly wonderful. Academic powerhouses, strong on sport and culture and over-subscribed. They work because of the way they are. these schools serve a valuable need providing for the minority in the County who wish their children to learn through the medium of Welsh.
Of course we all support that provision - but these schools are properly funded with strong support from the Assembly, of course they work and achieve results. - (do you teach in one of these?)
By contrast look at how English language schools are funded and supported.
Yes we all know the Assembly Education budget has, like the Health Budget, been raided to fund other more important things (like running the bloated administration of WAG and the Social Engineering Cultural programs) so that the spending per pupil is dramatically less than any other area of the UK.
The damage to our young people is serious.
An example; Greenhill school in Tenby where proposed budget cuts put the future of the schools music tuition and the orchestra under threat.
This particular music department has International standing as a center of excellence.
Just last month in Birmingham they gained two top awards at the National Festival of Music for Youth.
The orchestra one of the largest from any school in the UK won the Larry Westland School Orchestra Award.
While the schools clarinet quintet scooped the Classic FM senior chamber music award, where they were the youngest performers.
No great outcry from the Assembly, or Plaid, who have one of the only two Plaid Councillors in Pembrokeshire representing Tenby.
If you see value in saving the great range of heritage that we have here in Wales (It isn't just the special Culture of Pembrokeshire there are many others) then you need to speak up.
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messages 261 & 262....
So you bring all your 'culture' down to a bit of sport then?
Of course rugby union is not played anywhere else, like S Africa, Oz, NZ, France Fiji, Canada, even the US of A.
But what has this game to do with 'culture'?
I asked to have it decisively and specifically stated just what is it that is deemed Welsh culture, that differentiates it from the identical cultural lifestyle that exists across Offa's Dyke.
I am not so cavalier as to state that, if engaging in Cymraeg language 'culture', (using Cymraeg as the means of communicating of course), there is none to be found, but on this blog, which is the domain of the Anglo Welsh, English speaking majority, and in the greater and major proportion of the Welsh English speaking population of Wales, such delineation does not enter into the debate.
Passing references to matters Cymraeg are quite acceptable, but to create a diverse argument based on a concept that few actually follow, is disruptive of the blog.
Just as the blog is based in English, with Cymraeg disallowed, so should any attempt at in depth discussion of a virtually invisible culture, also be not tolerated.
We go around in ever more annoying circular discourse, with not a chance of that discourse being resolved to the satisfaction of either side.
The whole matter is truly a subject of no worth, as it can never be resolved.
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Lyn at 237
Don't suggest bringing back Dyfed, there would be riots, - it was tried by the Wilson Government, proved unwieldy and divisive, due at least in part to the massive cultural and economic differences across the area, it had to be broken up in 1996 with great popular relief.
Things have steadily improved since than and we haven't looked back.
The current amalgamation of the Health Boards is causing real concern, especially the loss of our local Community Health Councils.
We no longer have a voice in health matters and history shows that these large boards centered on Glanwilli give little support to Withybush or the other hospitals. Loss of services closures are on the cards.
You say As for Pembroke being independent run, not really, given that the independent group that runs the council is a group that vote on block and behave exactly like a political party, though there are some true independents there.
Well we the people of Pembrokeshire vote them in - repeatedly.
This is how we like it what we vote for - and it works - delivering good democratic government.
Though I must admit the cabinet system enforced by WAG, is not popular, and seems to exclude many Councillors from properly representing their constituents.
Choice and democracy are not looked on kindly by Plaid.
Disastrous for the Nats if the people are allowed to speak.
So I understand your disparaging comments
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264
Some useful points here. I am a parent rather than a teacher, and am sorry to hear what has happened in Tenby, because if one thing the county's schools excel in it is their music. It also transcends the Lansker Line.
The moral of the story must be one of mutual respect and sympathy with each community's sensitivities. Instead of the 'tyranny of the majority' (which can work in many ways, both for and against each majority or minority) being imposed by one or the other, both need to be respected.
May we look forward to the time when Pembs is known as a county where the two cultures happily co-exist, facing the future together.
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265
I am afraid I made no mention of Rugby in a cultural context. The two postings have been conflated. In 262 I was pointing out that the broad mass of ruby-inclined people in Monmouthshire aspire to play for Wales, or to cheer them on.
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message 267....
Extract...
....May we look forward to the time when Pembs is known as a county where the two cultures happily co-exist, facing the future together....
If that is your attitude, why not extend that to the whole of Wales? A Wales where the two 'cultures' and 'languages' can do likewise, without having the one being forced into, and onto, the other, to the total detriment to both.
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269
I cound not agree more!
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message 270...
As I said to someone else recently, 'light at the end of the tunnel!'
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#269 and #270
Now explain what you both propose, to bring about co-existence as the norm, with regard to the governance of Wales.
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271
In Jain statues, a deity is sometimes depicted by hollowing out the block of stone, so that the deity is indicated by the absence of matter, surrounded by matter. The shape is the same; people debate, people look from differing views.
272
Probably in this case through an admixture of Cartesian dualities and the Western School of Zen.
It all makes sense in the end. What matters is reflecting the will of the people.
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message 272....
For me Stoney, it requires absoltutely nothing to be done, except the removal of that menagerie in Cardiff Bay, and the reinstitution of power to our local authorities. End of.
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So there is nothing #273 that could be taken to Cardiff Bay and Westminster.
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274-275
It could indeed be Westminster. One needs to have an open mind about these things.
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Keep going Mappy my old mate and we anglo/welsh,english speaking aint "pointyheads",or fascists but simple folk who are happy with our life but are being forced to stand up for us rights.views because of the onslaught of NATS/Welsh speaking fanatics who wish to subvert us to a life under their whip hand. It will be to the dying shame of the old labour Party that they allowed King Rhodri to bring NATS into mickey mouse government under guise of One Wales Agreement. Everybody I speak to has has a "gutsfull" of the shoving welsh language down our throats and the amount of waste paper that goes straight into bin (no re-cycling)
from public bodies is scandalous. On culture the NATS never seem to mention Richard Burton who speak both languages and who expressed his wonderful love for all things welsh,however taxation being what it was before the Blessed Margaret meant he developed a greater love for Switzerland. As a biographer stated his love for wales was "skindeep" as he could even be bothered to be buried here,less taxes you see in Switzerland,dead or alive. Much the same for Sir Anthony Hopkins who has left for USA,after being critised by welsh politician for his advert for Barclays Capital,when Barclays PLC were shutting Banks in Valleys. Were left with the dross,never mind weve got S4C/Eisteddfod/WAG/WLB to broaden our minds.
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Irrespective about the merits of Cardiff, Westminster and Brussels and so on, there is little doubt that while the tweaking of 1995 made a bad job less awful, we really need to beef up the powers of local government at the county and indeed community level. Back to where we were in 194 would be a useful start. The debates on devolution and centralisation need to look at both directions.
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279
Ahem, where we were in 194 is another subject alltogether ('What did the Romans ever do for us?').
Back to where we were in 1974...
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278. Are you suggesting five tiers of governance? Who's going to pay
for all this? Lyns local income tax? 50p in the pound for all those earning over £100,000 here in Wales? You wouldn't make enough to sustain
one quango's corporate bash.Are you suggesting changing the constituency
from Carmarthen West to Pembrokeshire East?
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#278
we really need to beef up the powers of local government at the county and indeed community level.
Interesting, but you needn't go back in time to AD194, David Cameron proposes amongst other things .....
...The power for constituents to 'recall' and replace their MP
...Enhanced power for local government
...Provision for more direct involvement of citizens in political decision-making through such things as referendums and 'voter juries'
It seems the first step in the re-democratisation of Wales is a vote for the Conservative party at the next Local, General and Assembly Elections.
Is that harmony I see in the not so distant future.
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281. Harmony or a Conservative /Plaid coalition?
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#282 ..... A coalition with Plaid would be akin to a plague pandemic of Biblical proportions, as demonstrated by the Labour-Plaid attempts.
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Yet the Conservatives were committed to a coalition with Plaid, under a Plaid First Minister. It was only the Lib Dems pulling out that stopped that.
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We already have those tiers of Government, indeed I would remove one tier, that of Westminster. However most civilised countried have a genuine democratic system which involves governance at the level of the community, ie community council in Wales, parish in England, commune in France. Most other countries have an intermediary level of government between central government and the region. That is at bare minimum a county style set up. Larger states, ie above 5 million also have regional structures. Italy, France, Spain, Germany. Austria, Portugal etc are good examples of this. From some on here they want to abolish most of the demcoratic structures, remove the Welsh government and National Assembly and get rid of community councils too. I suspect most of those also want to pull out of the EU too. So that would leave us as the most centralised state in Europe, with only county councils as a democratic layer of local administration.
Now we used to have both district, community and county councils in Wales. The reorganisation was not supported by the people of Wales in any sense. Prior to that reorganisation we had 37 district councils and 8 county councils, we also had several hundred community councillors. Prior to that we had 13 counties, 4 county boroughs, hundreds of rural district, urban district and municipal boroughs, and hunderds of community councils. The number of elected representatives elected by the people of Wales has fallen steadily. So lets get some prospective on this.
Its a matter of balance, some councils are too small to carry out their functions efficiently, I want devlolution to those councils too, but they can't effectively do that if they are too small. In general I support local democracy at the level of the community, and I think uneversal community council provision would improve grass roots representation and can empower people. I would like most of Wales to be covered by most purpose authorities, but they need to be of sufficient size to work. Mid and West Wales is a problem... some of those councils are at the edge of what can be done efficiently, I think strategic planning should be included as a top tier function and in these rural areas an intermediate body would be useful. I am suggesting that the councillors from those districts should be the same as represent those districts at the mid and west Wales region level.
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285.But how will we pay for it? Will Mid and West Wales have to pay
more?I know that I pay 2 precepts one for town and one for county
in my poll tax will I have to pay twice or more local income tax than
someone living in the country or in another county?
Maapex in 222 states that it currently costs us £300 million for governance so how much of that will come from local income tax? Will
we still have to pay uk income tax?
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#284
You wrote:
Yet the Conservatives were committed to a coalition with Plaid, under a Plaid First Minister. It was only the Lib Dems pulling out that stopped that.
Everyone knows better now, pariah Plaid has been well and truly outed as an empty political shell with a single intention beyond the pale.
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message 285....
We used to have TWO below Westminster, County and local, no 'community' councils, those are a recent innovation, just another sponge to sop up the idle and workshy.
So, having not taken those into consideration previously, for all they are worth anyway, I now see we have a fourth tier of governance.
Why not to go for broke, and make everyone his own council?.
Just look at it logically, we can all take care of that little bit of street outside our own front door. Why pay a council to do it for us?
Think of the even more disastrous patchwork of tarmac,not that it will be very much worse that it is at present though.
We will of course, all need some sort of weaponry to police our little patch, a nice ASK47 a big fat sword, a battle-axe.
We mostly all have personal transport, so we don't need those pesky buses, etc,
All in all, government comes right down to the people, at last,. the sort anarchy I am quite prepared to accept. Not the anarchistic false type that currently we are bedevilled, and burdened with.
A darn sight cheaper than keeping all those useless prats in Cardiff Bay, and those town halls all over the place.
Knock all those vacated buildings down and make playing fields for our kids, or build nice new houses for those who have been waiting for yonks,on ever increasing waiting lists, while the funds to build have been squandered on a civil establishment that is, without doubt, the most wasteful enterprise ever ventured in this country (the UK).
We have had enough, it's about time the whole sorry mess was done away with, and a more rational system put it it's place.
The French model will do nicely.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
To West Wales - there is a language under threat in Pembrokeshire and strangely enough it ain't English.
The decline in traditional Welsh speaking areas is frightening:
Only 6 wards, Crymych, Clydau, Maenclochog, Dinas Cross, Cilgerran and St Dogmaels have Welsh speaking percentages over 50%. The highest, Crymych is only 63%.
Such once strongholds of the language as Newport, Solfa, Fishguard and St Davids are all lower than 50% Welsh speaking.
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"Just as the blog is based in English, with Cymraeg disallowed, so should any attempt at in depth discussion of a virtually invisible culture, also be not tolerated."
Absoluely wonderful from Map - the language obsessive who has posted thousands of words on here on his favourite suject. You really couldn't make it up.
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Dewi H @290
So in order to rebuild a language in the area north of the Landsker, you think it right to destroy the ancient heritage and culture south of the Landsker?.
And it isn't just Pembrokeshire - there is the same problem right across Wales, particularly in Public Services, Education and International Business.
English speaking communities being subjected to legally enforced Language and Cultural programs.
Instead of winning friends you are making enemies. - Read some of the posts on this Blog, go to the Assembly Web site, browse the comments made to the Language LCO committee - in the long term this heavy handed policy will damage the language and the politics of Wales.
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"So in order to rebuild a language in the area north of the Landsker, you think it right to destroy the ancient heritage and culture south of the Landsker?."
Not at all West-Wales - don't want to destroy anything - the English language is alive and flourishing throughout Wales - I'd imagine close to 98% of us are fluent.
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Day 1 on the Maes and as predicted profound political statements from leading Plaid politicians as they turn this linguistic-cultural-socio
event into a political platform to further their goal of self governance. Surprisingly on this occasion I actually agree with Dafydd Wigley and his call for a referendum next year. Lets get it on I'm very
confident that the thousand or so indigenous people from my ward of Gods Own will come out to the negative.
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288 The French system? So that would be :
Commune (Our Community Council)
Municipalitie (Our County Borough Council, but also see below))
Department (Our County Borough Council again)
Conseil de Region (Our Assembly)
Natiaonal (Westminster)
So you are saying that you would emulate the French by reinstating seperate layers for Torfaen and Gwent, but otherwise leave as-is.....
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#295
There is no reason to have more than ....
Community
County (10 in Wales)
Westminster.
.... this equates to less government, fewer politicians, happier citizens.
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message 295...
There is sound reason for the 'extra' tiers in France. The whole state is regionalised into areas that are VAST compared to the UK.
Message 295....
France nto 26 administrative regions. 22 are in metropolitan France (21 are on the continental part of metropolitan France; one is the territorial collectivity of Corsica), and four are overseas regions. The regions are further subdivided into 100 departments which are numbered (mainly alphabetically). This number is used in postal codes and vehicle number plates amongst others. The 100 departments are subdivided into 341 arrondissements which are, in turn, subdivided into 4,032 cantons. These cantons are then divided into 36,680 communes, which are municipalities with an elected municipal council. There also exist 2,588 intercommunal entities grouping 33,414 of the 36,680 communes (i.e. 91.1% of all the communes). Three communes, Paris, Lyon and Marseilles are also subdivided into 45 municipal arrondissements.
The regions, departments and communes are all known as territorial collectivities, meaning they possess local assemblies as well as an executive. Arrondissements and cantons are merely administrative divisions. However, this was not always the case. Until 1940, the arrondissements were also territorial collectivities with an elected assembly, but these were suspended by the Vichy regime and definitely abolished by the Fourth
Not the same setup as the UK , they coincide in a few minor parameters.
As you can see from the above, not all wield the same sort of powers, some are purely administrative.
I wold still opt for the same, modified to fit of course, so as to reduce those sectors which would be superfluous, due to the much smaller size of Britain.
Should be easy enough to do, if the politicians got their fingers out, and took a serious, and rational stab at doing it.
As I see it, a marked improvement to our governance, lifestyle and environment, would ensue.
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Message to moderators...
When a message is forwarded, a notice appears at the foot of the blog stating that messages are pre-moderated, but only initially, which I see as implying that, after a while, they will be allowed straight on, and then post moderated.
So far this does not seem to be occurring. Why not?
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Probably worth remembering that Community and Town Councillors are not paid.
These people give freely of their time, play a vital part in building Communities, they represent the interests of local people deal with local issues, and ensure the County Council delivers to meet local needs.
Town and Community Councils are the grass roots of democracy. They have many functions but all are about local needs and resolving local issues.
The County Council has the onerous duty of providing Government to the whole community. To do this properly the feedback on local needs and concerns from the Community Councils is essential.
We in Pembrokeshire suffered through the 70's and 80's the remote unwieldy beurocratic incompetence of Dyfed.
Large District Councils simply do not work, for the same reasons the Assembly is failing.
Lets stay with the current County Councils - free them from the dead hand of the Assembly which simply burdens them with costs and restrictions.
Leave the Community Councils alone they do a good job.
Bottom up is always better than top down - at least those at the bottom know what they want!!!
Lyn suggested a local income tax - I think some form of poll tax is a better solution - but the current council tax is a nightmare.
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Mapexx you are wrong, the current community councils were created out of the old civil parishes that we had throughout Wales, they didn't exist in areas that had urban district councils, municipal boroughs or County Borough Councils. Post local government regorganisation the urban districts, municipal borought (with some exceptions) and parishes became community councils. Rural Wales had three tiers of local government, Parish, Rural District and County Council.
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message 299...
Don't know about your town councillors Westy, but in Torfaen they do get paid; my immediate local guy expressed to me that he 'only' gets 200 quid a week from attending.Just one committee, plus full council once a month.
Those further up the chain, with more than one committee seat, get even more. The leader is apparently on well over three or four times what my local guy gets.
Message 300...
As I recall, in my own area, it may be different in yours, we only obtained 'community councils', about a decade ago.
What they may have been called previously is of no concern.
Before, they were not elected on a community wide basis around here, and held little sway beyond the church.
Now, I may be misunderstand what you have written, but as I say, I have no recollection of community councils, all I recall is the town council, the county council, and the Constituency MP.
As for three tiers of governance, not so, as I do not consider 'parish' councils as a tier of governance, in the community sense of the word, as I said only to do with church matters. But also as I said, rural matters my not fall in with my idea of the way the country, (UK) was ruled.
I could use some more in depth info, to clarify, as I have always lived under urban regimes,and have no experience of rural arrangements.
Were parish councils elected in the same way, and to the same end, as local councils in urban areas? Or were they 'church' related, rather than related to the 'parish' as delineated from the basic church parish pattern, for ease of geographic convenience?
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301 Parish councils are in England only and are not related to the church. In Wales these are called Community Councils - sometimes referred to as Town Councils but with exactly the same powers. This has been the situation since 1974 but am not sure what existed before that.
I am pretty certain that Community/Town Councillors are unpaid and suspect that the Town Councillor you refer to is actually a County Councillor who represents a town.
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"Don't know about your town councillors Westy, but in Torfaen they do get paid;"
Now that's interesting Map - I was a town councillor in Blackwood for 4 years and didn't recieve a single penny. You don't mean County Councillors do you?
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Message 303...
MY local councillor is a member of Torfaen County Borough Council, which is effectively a 'town' council, as far as I am aware.
As you say, pre 1974 we had, what we should now revert to.
As Blackwood is a part of Caerphilly County Borough Council, I cannot speak for what you did, or did not, get paid.
Parish councils are in England only? that sort of conflicts with the messages from Lyn, does it not?
But to return to the 'councils'. I understand that a county is something like Powys, Dyfed, Flintshire, Mid Gmaorgan. Town councils are what? ...another name for places like Caerphilly, Torfaen, Newport (now a city, or BIG town in my book) Cardiff (another BT in my book) a town (small version) being Usk, Brynmwyr, Blackwood, Bridgend, and such, all over Wales.
Many have been 'absorbed' into unitary authorities such as Caerphilly and Torfaen, and have 'lost' status as self governing bodies.
No doubt it is to these places you refer as 'parish' councils these days, as they have 'voluntary' councillors with no power, other than to become a stumbling block between the individual resident and those who consider themselves slightly more elevated.
In other words, representatives of our totally screwed up democratic local authority system, a system that worked for more than a century, until the meddling business types became involved.
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Parish Councils exist in England, their conterparts in Wales are called Community Councils, we used to have parish councils prior to the reorganisation of local government in 1974. Mapexx you wrong with regards to local government set up, I suggest you do some reading on the matter.
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message 305...
Did so, but apart from the 'new' names given to these local authorities, in effect, they are the same as before, with the exception of the additional 'community' councils, which I never heard of prior to 1974, and which are as much use as a broken arm to a mountain climber. But as I said befotre, they do make an ideal barrier between the taxpayer and the top committees.
Amalgamations have taken place for sure, but what is the difference between a county council and a unitary authority?
The difference between a City of today, and a city as before '74 ?
None that I can detect. Unless you total up the numbers who have suddenly become members on those councils.
All of which seem to have increased in size. Much in keeping with the civil establishments they supposedly rule over, but which, in fact, are the tail that wags the dog.
All of which WE pay for, whether we want their constructs or not.
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No you are wrong, the number of councils and councillors was greatly reduced in the reorganisation in 1974 and further reduced in the reoganisation of 1996. All the principle authorities in Wales are Unitary authorities, they may be called City and County Councils, County Councils or County Borough Councils but they are the same, just different titles. Under them at the grass roots are community councils. The total number of councillors has fallen at each reorganisation. The numbers claiming allowances has fallen at each reorganisation. We now have a diminishing number of elected representatives per 100,000. Again I suggest you read something about the history of Local Government in this country.
There seems to be an underlying hostility to the idea of local democracy in your postings, community councils have little formal powers, the main ones being the power to give grants to local voluntary organisations, to maintain and light footpaths, allotments, graveyards and public conveniences, though many of these may be carried out by the Unitary authority. They are unpaid and do great work. They are also very democratic. All of them meet in public and all (as far as I am aware) welcome contributions from the floor. Perhaps if more were involved in them our local democracy would be more vibrant.
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Map this wikipedia article may give you a start.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_council
These small councils are in direct contact with their constituents, are the front line sorting out local problems.
They are cheap to run, councillors are not paid, but know personally nearly every person they represent.
Locals attend council meetings, especially when there is a local issue, and are allowed to have their say.
The importance of these councils is that they are local - the meetings are local - and while their powers are limited they are statutory bodies and have authority to act.
The Welsh Assembly despite paying lip service to the importance of these bodies, is using the current Boundary Review program to amalgamate and get rid of many - with the excuse of getting the electorate/councillor ratio up.
In practice, in rural low density populated areas, which is most of Wales, this is breaking and removing the direct Councillor / elector link - In destroying this they will have councillors who no longer respond to local needs, instead support the dictate of Central Authority.
Its the same strategy behind amalgamating the County Councils into massive beurocratic monsters.
Make the Councillors more distant - they will then work for the Centre, not the people.
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"MY local councillor is a member of Torfaen County Borough Council, which is effectively a 'town' council, as far as I am aware."
It's a county council. That's why it says County in the title. It's like a clue.
"As Blackwood is a part of Caerphilly County Borough Council, I cannot speak for what you did, or did not, get paid."
It's part of Caerphilly Borough not council and is a town council. I'm astonished that you can't speak for what I didn't get paid. You have opinions on every other subject you know nothing about.
"Parish councils are in England only?" Yes they are in England only - in Wales we have Town Councils and community councils - but not everywhere - unless you of course know better.
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Message 309....
The sort of clue Dewi that would ensure you would never make detective.
Extract from 309
It's a county council. That's why it says County in the title. It's like a clue.
Torfaen is NOT a County, it is, in modern political parlance a 'Unitary Authority'
A gathering together of a cluster of towns and other small communities, for the declared purpose of 'modernising' local authority.
Blackwood is, likewise, a part of the now Unitary Authority of Caerphilly.Which is, as far as I am aware also a County Borough Council.
Don't you drive out of your area at all?
The CLUE is on the road signs, as you enter and leave the area.
By the way, the definition of borough is, according to the Oxford English Dictionary...
borough: a town containing a municipal authority, a corporation, a town that sends a representative to Parliament, or a larger place than a village.
A county borough: a county corporate.
A county: a shire, one of the districts of the Gt Britain, forming a unit for administrative, judicial, and political purposes.
Just thought you would like a proper clue.
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Mapexx I think you are digging yourself a hole. Boroughs of the type you are describing are parliamentary boroughs, quite a different thing.
Strictly speaking none of the Welsh Councils are Counties, though some use those titles. All are described as unitary councils, though they are correctly called Principal Authorities. Under them at the lowest level are community councils – of which the County Borough of Torfaen has six.
It is shorthand to describe all the principal authorities as Counties. Preserved or Continuing Counties are a different kettle of fish again, being the areas of the Lieutenancies and for the purpose of calculating entitlement to parliamentary seats. These are based on the old 8 counties, with some substantial differences, ie all of Caerphilly County Borough in the Continuing County of Gwent.
As for West Wales' claims of a plot by the Assembly Government to amalgamate community councils, so to make them the servants of central government rather than the people they serve all I can say this is sheer paranoia. Firstly the Welsh Government aren't in control of the process this is done by a boundary commission working with the Principal authority in the area. No sinister plots, if you have evidence of any I'd like to hear of them.
Having said that, there is some scope for amalgamation of some of the smaller communities' councils, especially those where there is a division between a village and its rural hinterland, sometimes this is quite sharply and artificially done and is a historic hangover. In Wales communities are defined by natural communities not by artificial creation. This is one benefit and difference from England.
All of Wales is covered by Communities, not all have councils, in some case several small neighbouring Communities share a common council, but for the most part – outside Rhondda, and the areas of the old County Borough (pre 1974) Councils of Merthyr, Cardiff, Swansea and Newport, all communities have councils. My wish is that all communities have councils, they cost little to run, they have small powers but have influence and a statutory right to be consulted. They are essential as part of the fabric of the community, grant aiding many vital local organisations and acting as a centre for community life. Sure they vary tremendously in ability and provision of services. But I think we would be considerably worse off without them. I think many of our larger conurbations would be enhanced by having these grass root organisations. For example I think my Community of Butetown would be a very different place if the local Community had a statutory input into the redevelopment of the area through its community council. Certainly the wishes and the needs of the local people would not have been ignored in the way that it was.
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message 311...
Please tell me Lyn, why do you take about three hundred words to make an argument, when, if you read my last message carefully, all you have done is agree with what I wrote?
Strange!!
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Then you aren't reading what I said, I don't agree with you, plus those 300 words say a lot more, for example me wanting every part of Wales to be covered by a community council.
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message 313....
To repeat... "Torfaen is NOT a County, it is, in modern political parlance a 'Unitary Authority'
A gathering together of a cluster of towns and other small communities, for the declared purpose of 'modernising' local authority.
Blackwood is, likewise, a part of the now Unitary Authority of Caerphilly.Which is, as far as I am aware also a County Borough Council.
Don't you drive out of your area at all?
The CLUE is on the road signs, as you enter and leave the area...."
Where did you disagree with that?
I may have added the last few sentences, extracts from the OED, but they were to define what the accepted meanings are/were for those authorities. As the OED in m,y possession is well post 1974, 2002 in fact, I would hold the definitions are accurate, and pretty well up to date.
So again, please do not try the clever stuff with an expert.
I also want Wales to be 'authorised', not as at present with that rat trap arrangement in Cardiff Bay, but with all local authorities, irrespective of title, to deal directly with Westminster, as was the case pre 1950'ish, and as IS the case with all authorities across the Dyke. Thereby eradicating and eliminating an unnecessary THIRD tier of governence.
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314 You are wrong - You originally claimed that your mythical friend was a Town Councillor - you were wrong - he is a Councillor on Torfaen County Borough Council. All councils in Wales are categorised as either County, County Borough or City & County, but all have identical functions and responsibilities - they could be described as Unitary Authorities, but this term has no definitive meaning - unlike England.
I suggest you check your facts next time.
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message 315...
You are another clutching at straws.
My local councillor, Ray Williams, who is factual, not mythical, you insolent sod, sits on the Torfaen council, which, despite your rather ridiculous attempt to be over pedantic, IS a town council, in that Torfaen, a Unitary Authority, (which by the way is the name given to many such and ALL OVER the UK not just Wales)is well within the terminology used, in most fora, as exampled by reference to the OED.
You I am afraid are simply looking to argue for the sake of arguing,
not for any other reason, which is the stance usually taken by your friend Fi-Fi.
If you care to go to any one of the on line encyclopedia, you will no doubt be amazed to discover that there are about ten or more Unitary Authorities, and listed as such, here in Wales.
Extract...
"For the purposes of local government, Wales was divided into 22 council areas in 1996. These Unitary Authorities are responsible for the provision of all local government services.
[47]
Unitary Authority areas...
Merthyr Tydfil (Merthyr Tudful) †
Caerphilly (Caerffili) †
Blaenau Gwent †
Torfaen (Tor-faen) †
Monmouthshire (Sir Fynwy)
Newport (Casnewydd) *
Cardiff (Caerdydd) *
Vale of Glamorgan (Bro Morgannwg) †
Bridgend (Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr) †
Rhondda Cynon Taf (Rhondda Cynon Tâf) †
Neath Port Talbot (Castell-nedd Porth Talbot) †
Swansea (Abertawe) *
Carmarthenshire (Sir Gaerfyrddin)
Ceredigion
Powys
Wrexham (Wrecsam) †
Flintshire (Sir y Fflint)
Denbighshire (Sir Ddinbych)
Conwy †
Gwynedd
Isle of Anglesey (Ynys Môn)
Pembrokeshire (Sir Benfro)
The above list from Wiki. Some are 'counties' some are 'towns', some are,'cities'.
All are NOW.... Unitary Authorities.
I HAVE checked my facts, but for someone so obtuse as to be unable to see he is actually agreeing with me, I suggest 'fact checking' should be your remit in future.
But just to make it absolutely clear, the accepted definition of a borough is, 'a town', therefore my local councillor sits on the borough council, which makes him a 'town' councillor.
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Map - I suggest you read the Local Government Act 1996. Whether you like it or not your friend is a County Councillor not a Town Councillor. Ask him and he will confirm that.
And tone down your language.
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Sorry to be pedantic, but a Town Council has a special meaning, ie a council of a community where the chair of the council is given the title of Mayor. Its a dignity given to a town. There is no Town of Torfaen, there is a County Borough of Torfaen, not the same thing. Your definition falls flat within this context. Again Mapexx you are digging yourself a hole.
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Messages 317 & 318....
I have done as suggested, ansd asked my three local councillors, they tell me they arec town councillors not county coucillors.
Below, for the obviously ignorant is the Mayors web page for TORFAEN.
In May each year, Torfaen County Borough Council elects a new Mayor to act as ambassador for the area, to represent the local community, local democracy and Torfaen County Borough Council. A Mayoress, or Mayor's Consort, is appointed by the Mayor to support him or her during their year of office.
As First Citizen for the Borough, the Mayor actively promotes the local area to industrialists and tourists, as well as championing causes and raising the profile of the local community and the Council. Throughout the year, the Mayor will meet with people of all ages and backgrounds.
By statute, the Mayor takes precedence within the Borough over everyone, with the exception of Her Majesty the Queen or her representative, the Lord Lieutenant of the County.
One of the Mayor's most important tasks is to chair full meetings of the Council, to ensure that rules of debate are followed and to keep order.
When representing the Borough, the Mayor wears a chain of office and, on some occasions, the civic robes are also worn. In addition to acting as First Citizen of the Borough, the Mayor hosts visits from representatives of our twin towns, attends Civic functions such as Remembrance Sunday and gets involved in fund raising for his/her chosen charity.
To find out more about the current Mayor visit the Mayor of Torfaen| area of the website.
Who is the service for? The Mayor represents Torfaen County Borough and provides a service to the community as a whole. How do I access the Service? If you wish to invite the Mayor to attend a function or require further information on the Role of the Mayor, contact the Mayoral Support Officer. Hours Service Available 8.30 - 5.00 - Monday to Thursday
8.30 - 4.30 - Friday
The current Mayor is Bob Jones.
I suggest that between the two of you, the hole you have dug is so deep you are about to emerge in Australia.
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Then your councillors are either ignorant of their position, they are borough councillors, of course they could also sit on a town council, however Torfaen is not a town council, its a unitary authority that has the style of County Borough Council. I am not sure where you are going with this, but its pointless. The original issue is that community councils (some of which may be styled town and a few even city councils) are the lowest level of representative democracy in the is country, their members are elected but unpaid. You stated that your town councillors were paid, hence the discussion on definitions. They are not paid as town councillors end of argument.
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Mapp - TORFAEN IS NOT A TOWN COUNCIL. Can't you just accept you have learnt something??? Blaenafon, within Torfaen, has a town council, there are community councils in Cwmbran, Henllys, Ponthir, Pontypool and Croesyceiliog & Llanyrafon has one between them. I suspect your local councillors might be both County and Town councilllors if they are being paid.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Map - you are wrong - the facts are staring you straigt in the face - but you just can not admit it.
There are only two levels of council in Wales:
(1) Primary Authority, which are named as County or County Borough or City & County. They are all commonly referred to as County, although it is not strictly correct. They are all 'unitary authorities' although that term has no specific meaning (unlike in England).
(2) Community, which may be alternativley named as Town or City (applies only to St Davids and I think St Asaph).
Torfaen is a County Borough - it has County Borough Councillors -its Councillors are paid.
Blaenafon is a Town - its Councillors do not get paid.
You can twist your definitions and interpretations as much as you like - BUT YOU ARE STILL WRONG. Time to move on.
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message 321....
The definition of a County Borough is it is a TOWN. Look in your dictionary. A larger version, but still defined as a Town. Town and borough being the same.
As is a limb, a leg, or vice-versa.
It is now called a Unitary Authority. It covers an area previously covered by a number of 'towns'.
A County is a regional (or was) Authority, latterly dispensed with in favour of UA's.
The reason why a CB is a TOWN is because it has not been accorded the status of being a CITY.
My local councillors tell me they WOULD be County Councillors had a county been formed, The plain fact is, Trofaen et al, were formed whilst thyere were still conties, which I am told there still are over the Dyke.
Gloucestershire, Lancashire etc. They do not have Mayors, they have Chairmen.2009 reforms
extract from government sources....
...A further wave of local government reform took place in April 2009 under the Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Act 2007. Following invitations from central government in 2007, a number of County Councils and their associated districts examined ways in which local government provision could be rationalised, mainly in the form of abolishing the existing County and District councils and establishing one-tier authorities for all or parts of these existing counties. As a result, the status of some of these (mainly) more rural counties changed. Cornwall, Durham, Northumberland, Shropshire and Wiltshire became unitary authorities providing all services. Some of these councils have dropped the word "county" from their titles. Bedfordshire and Cheshire County Councils were abolished with more than one unitary council established within the boundaries of the abolished council. Other county councils remained unchanged, particularly in the heavily populated parts of England, such as the south east.
Wales
Since 1996 Wales has been divided into unitary principal areas. Councils were designated by the legislation that created them as either "county councils" or "county borough councils".[13] County and county borough councils have identical powers.
I trust that clarifies the matter of County v County Borough status.
In Wales, several Principal Areas are called county boroughs:
Merthyr Tydfil
Caerphilly
Blaenau Gwent
Torfaen
Vale of Glamorgan
Bridgend
Rhondda Cynon Taf
Neath Port Talbot
Wrexham
Conwy
(Newport was a made a county borough again in 1996. In 2002 it acquired city status.)
For all practical purposes, county boroughs are exactly the same as the other principal areas of Wales called "counties" or "cities" as all these areas are run by unitary authorities (i.e.: have the functions of both boroughs and counties).
Please note the last, bracketed sentence above.
Boroughs AND Counties, not Boroughs ARE Counties. Get it?.
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Ps to message 324....
Extract from an online encyclopedia, which substantiates the OED definition...
..... A borough is an administrative division of various counties. In principle, the term 'borough' designates a self-governing 'township' although, in practice, official use of the term varies widely.....
Please note the definition, 'township'.
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Mapexx - Torfaen isn't a town council - Blaenafon is. You are now making yourself look foolish.
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message 326....
No, Torfaen is, as stated before a Unitary Authority under the title County Borough Council, which makes it a TOWN... It is not a county, but a county borough.
If you cannot detect the subtle differences implied then I shall have to leave you dangling.
I refer you, in conclusion, to Wiki, for the descriptions, definitions and meanings of the title 'Borough', County Borough and County. To the Torfaen website, (mayors page), and the OED.
Blaenavon, by the way, the residence of a large number of my family, one of who was a councillor there for ten years or more, and was instrumental in the removal of the two tips at Garn yr Eryw, where two lakes now lie, within the new countryside amenity, is now a community with a community council. In turn it answers to, and is part of the County Borough, or TOWN, by definition, of Torfaen.
IT is NOT a county, but although a TOWN, it is for administration purposes, called a Unitary Authority.
You can blather as much as you wish, but it is you that is in the wrong, for the simple reason...you are wrong. End of.
Your fellow traveller was also out of order in message 321, stating Torfaen did not present a Mayor. Another error that I corrected forthwith.
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This is getting tiresome, Mapexx is wrong. He is using a definition of a town based on a dictionary definition that does not apply in Wales. A Town Council has a specific meaning under Welsh Law, ie a Town Council is a community council that has the dignity of having its Chair called a mayor. Mayors also exist in City and County Borough Councils in Wales, but just having a Mayor or being a County Borough does not make a council a town council under the meaning of the Welsh Local Government Act.
My final word on this subject.
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Map - Blaenafon is a Town Council. Like that's a fact.
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Message 329...
As Stated, blather as much as you like, even in Cymraeg a borough is simply a town,
A county borough a larger town.
Bleanavon was a town with it's own council, separate fromm Pontypool, but both are now part of Torfaen, a Unitary Authority, a large town.
I have three local councillors who tell me they are Town councillors because there is NO OTHER way to entitle themselves, County Borough councillors, they say, is too much of a mouthful, and as town and borough are interchangable terms, they are quite happy to stick with Town councillor.What is what they have always been called.
Certainly they do not wish to be known as Unitary Authority Councillors.
Nor, as there are no longer the same parameters for it, County councillors. I think my councillors are better arbiters of their status and title than you are.
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Mapexx - you bore me to tears but have a look at this:
http://www.webster.uk.net/CommunitySupport/CommunityCouncils/BlaenavonTownCouncil/Home.aspx
That's for the town council. It's a technical point that councils of this type are called town councils. I really don't understand why you are being so daft.
"Town and borough are interchangeable terms" you say - that's just absolute nonsense - they are not interchageable. Torfaen isn't a town it's a County Borough (and a river)
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Message 331....
I am fed up with your intransigence so will not bother. A Borough IS a town end of..
As for 'Torfaen' being a river, please explain where this river is.
The river running through Pontypool (Torfaen) is the Afon Llwyd.(grey river) It rises in the region of Bleanafon,(head of the river in Eng.) and flows to meet the Usk near to Ponthir.. There is a tributary at Abersychan (dry confluence), with various small nantau along it's route. Nant Ddu being just one. But none are known locally, or geographically, as the 'Afon Torfaen'. It don't compute. Not in this area anyway. Maybe over by Abertawe perhaps.
I know the meaning of Torfaen is 'rock breaker', so what's your point?
I suggest you look in any and all dictionaries, both in English and Cymraeg, where you will find... borough equates to town.
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mapexx,
Your obsession with dictionaries, far from making you more enlightened, is making you more and more confused.
I am a community councillor - which is the same as being a town councillor - and we don't get paid a penny for it. Nor do we wish to be paid.
There are no such things as 'cabinet seats' on this tier of local government. You are just displaying your ignorance, and you're not man enough to admit to having made a mistake.
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Re 312
mapexx,
As someone who's windbaggery rivals, no, beats junket Kinnock(s), your comment:
"Please tell me Lyn, why do you take about three hundred words to make an argument" - is a work of comic genius!
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Map - I always thought Torfaen was an old name for the Afon Llwyd......give it up on the town bit - just admit you are spouting nonsense and move on.
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Indeed the meaning of "Rock-breaker" would tend to support the river derivation. I'll find out some facts.
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"Torfaen is centred on the urbanized and industrialized valley of the Afon Llwyd (formerly called the River Torfaen), and it encompasses the surrounding wooded hills and moorlands."
From Brittanica......but eh they could be wrong.
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324 - Without going over the Town vs County debate again, I realise now why you are so convinced that you are right, despite this not being the case -
The Act you refer to - Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Act 2007 - Is an English act - it does not apply in Wales.
Read the preamble where it describes its territorial application. Times have moved on Map, and whetehr you like it or not, this is a devolved matter. There are differences between Wales and England, and this is one of them.
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message 337...
Britannica may give the name of the river as once being Torfaen, but therein lies a dispute.
I have in front of me right at this moment, a map of this area first triangulated by Lt Colonel William Mudge and Capt. Thomas Colby, and put into print in the third volume of The Account of Trigonometric Survey, which was published in 1811...
The River you lay claim to as Torfaen is clearly marked on this map as Afon Llwyd.
I also have a full copy of the ENC Brit, rather older than yours probably, but neverthelessm, even as published in 1961, it ONLY mentions Afon Llwyd. Not a single entry for Torfaen, of course it would not mention in regards of a town or borough, but it would sureley give reference to the river being called Torfaen..
Now, as the first issue of the EB was in 1768, but only in Scotland, with the third edition of 1801 being available to the rest of the world, I would have thought the EB would have referenced the publication by Mudge and Colby for the information regarding river names.
It obviously did not, nor did it up to 1961, therefore I suggest it only appears in the modern version of the EB because of the usual pressures from the likes of the WLB.
It is a matter of concern to me to make absolutely sure I am correct when I make a statement. That is why I keep a fairly substantive reference collectioon of books and maps etc, so I can argue from a position of strength.
Finally, when Mudge and Colby surveyed this area, they MUST have taken note of local names, I feel therfore, that this river has never been known as Torfaen in the memory of any person who has ceased to exist for at leat two hundred years.
Retrieving a name from some ancient manuscript, pre 1800 at least,is just another means to pressurise that dratted language into everyone's vocabulary.
In other words, yet another bit of 'invention'.
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Re 339
Nonsense! You are confusing two things. It is quite clear that Torfaen was a name used for that particular river - who knows, maybe for centuries. Your other mistake is in claiming that someone is campaigning for the return of that name. Where do you get that idea from? So, it's not an 'invention' and there is no campaigning. There's that paranoia again...!
By the way, it should be Afon Lwyd, because Llwyd is an adjective, and there is a soft mutation when an adjective occurs immediately after a noun. Teifi or Menai however don't mutate as they are proper nouns. Ah, the genius of language. Wonderful!
But at least you now seem to accept that you were completely wrong on the council business. Small mercies!
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"The River you lay claim to as Torfaen is clearly marked on this map as Afon Llwyd."
I don't claim anything Map - I just always thought this was the case - as do a fair few sources. If not any idea where "Torfaen" came from ?
Why on earth would the WLB put pressure on EB? Afon Llwyd is a wonderful Welsh name. I'm just interested in the etymology of "Torfaen" now. Whilst "Rock-Breaker" seems to be the most popular name another source could be "Stone Peak"? Tell me one thing - before local goverment re-organisation in the early seventies was "Torfaen" used for anything? I seem to recall a "Torfaen House" somewhere?
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message 340...
I prefer to accept the Survey of Mudge and Colby than in erudite nonsense from a person who has no concept of accurate research.
There is no mention of the river being named other than Afon Llwyd in any reference I have available. That is up to and including 1974 (?) when Torfaen C.B.C. came into existence.
Had the name been applied to that river, in recent history, that is post Mudge and Colby's survey, then you may have a case to make,
However, as the name Afon Llwyd appears on the map they made and published in 1811, I take ONLY that as the name the river has been known as, for at LEAST two centuries.
Therefore to rake up any other name from over two hundred years ago is nothing but 'invention'.
Now, as you are supposed to be a Cymraeg proficient, your comment re. Llwyd is also not quite right.
Modern School Eng/Cym dict.,1990: Afon Llwyd. Grey river.
Welsh Place Names & Their Meanings. by E.M.H.Davies BA (hons) Welsh, Dip, Ed.: Afon Llwyd= grey river.
Cym/Eng Dictionary 1861 by W. Richards LL.D (doctor of Literature)
Afon= River +Llwyd Grey.
Local maps, show the name to be Afon Llwyd, with an occasional one missing one 'L'
So, you may be slightly correct in a pedantic way, but I still prefer to go with the EXPERTS in the Cymraeg language, which in this case, you are not one of.
Added to which, if this is the standard set in teaching the language, with such ambiguities creeping in, or most importantly using it in a debating chamber, where vital community decisions could well hang on a misinterpretation, then I think we are in for a rough old time when the Stasi/LWB et al, get their way in this region
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Message 341,...
As I recall, Glantorfaen House is the building next to the Pontypool town hall, now occupied by a firm of solicitors. I believe it was part of the Hanbury estate, the same Hanbury that funded the Town Hall constructuion.
It may even have been Hanbury's residence, I'll have to check on it.
However, as I told you before, the river was named on the 1811 map Afon Llwyd, I stick with that.
Also, as I told you elsewhere, anything that happened pre about 1900 I deem irreleant to any of my messasges, other than to confirm data, as in this case.
BTW you are at liberty to view this map at any time, whereupon you can discover for yourself, what I say is correct.
FiFi and Dewi...
Below an extract from the Glamorgan-Gwent Archeological Trust web site
"...The area features important transport links: a tramroad, engineered by Thomas Dadford in 1796, ran close to the Afon Llwyd from Blaenavon ironworks terminating at Pontnewynydd; this providing access to the Monmouthshire Canal. ..."
Pease note the spelling of 'Afon Llywd'
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PS to my last one..
Extract from Baptist historical records....
".....All went well at the Baptist Church in Caerleon for many years. Then, in 1800, disturbances and contentions arose, this was because the English speaking members of the congregation objected to the number of services being taken in Welsh. Having no satisfaction, these people, mainly the Tin Plate Owners, withdrew their support from Caerleon and founded a new church, Capel Zion at Ponthir.
The Church was built on land belonging to the Tin Plate Works, and was built adjoining a row of cottages which had been erected for the Tin Plate workers.
It opened as a mixed Church with nine Baptists and three independents, and adopted open communion. Baptisms took place in the Dowlais Brook, which flowed into the Afon Llwyd just above the Mill Weir...."
PLease take careful note of the date when the Capel Zion was built. A further confirmation that Torfaen was NOT in use for the river in 1800, nor does the spelling occur, sans the double 'L'
Plus, even two hundred and ten years ago there was dispute over the predominance of Cymraeg.
When will you lot ever bow to the inevitable?
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Re 344
Your inability to accept the joys of ambiguities says rather a lot about you. The fact that you don't or can't accept the fact that history can throw up interesting differences and variations is rather sad - for you.
As I have said, I have no interest in bringing back the name Torfaen for the river, I was merely making the pertinent points of grammar involved here. So Afon Lwyd/Llwyd are, and no doubt will be used in the future. It's your paranoia running rampant again. I'm quite happy, but you see a conspiracy around every corner.
Just to show that there are variations, have a look at this:
http://www.torfaen.gov.uk/LeisureAndCulture/ParksAndOpenSpaces/PontypoolPark/Afon%20Lwyd%20Weir.aspx
What is the point of refusing to accept that Torfaen was the name of the river at some point? That is just ridiculous. And why set some date as a cut off point for relevance? That is just silly.
And how you seem to long for what you regard as the 'inevitable.' But only one thing is inevitable!
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Just a bit of idle speculation about the origin of the name Torfaen - I dont know the truth, and I dont really care what it is - but Tor- could be used in the same sense as it is in SW England - to denote a rock outcrop. This is then suffixed with -faen meaning stone. Alternatively Tor could be a corruption of twr or tower.
I dont know if there is any local landmark which fits. Anybody out there know??
(ps before some chirps up, Tor is a Welsh/Celtic word in English usage - not the other way around)
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message 345....
The 'cut off point' in time was nothing of the kind, I gave 1800 as a two hundred and ten years ago span, in which documentary evidence shows the river has been know only as Afon Llywd, in other words not in the memory of any living person or in most of the avialable literature has it been known as anything else.
I did not say it had never been called Afon Torfaen, I was most careful to state that it has NOT been known as such over the last two hundred and ten years, and two centuries ago, things and place names moved a damned sight slower than today, I therefore suggest the name was far longer in place, so far back in history in fact, it took an 'inventive' mind to come up with the name for the County Borough when they were looking for something Cymraeg to call it. Hence my saying it is an 'invention'.
For as sure as eggs is chicken fruit, you can bet your boots that the WLB had a hand in instructing this council to make sure they chose a Cymraeg title for this area, once the Unitary regime was to be put in place.
For all I know, but I will certainly dig deeper, it could have been called that name Afon Llwyd for two centuries before 1800 in fact.
Nowhere can I find it called Afon 'Torfaen'.
And, as you brought it up, I also visited that site you linked in, before you did so, and it is so far the only place where I have seen the name spelt with one L, there may be others, but as I stated, your explaination does not hold water when taken in comparison to a remarkable number of other sources, including Doctors of Literature, Government surveyors, the Ordinance Survey, (not known for making fundamental errors), dictionaries and etymologies, etc etc, you just don't stand up in face of that lot.
Just because Pontypool has possibly dropped a clanger on it's web site, does not mean it is right, or wrong, (to calm your nerves).
But carry on supporting it. Maybe one of your pals on the Maes will give you the exact version when you go visit next time.
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PS to message 347...
Wec were not discussing 'variations'.. you made definine statement re the grammatcical exactitude of the name Afon Llwyd, by stating....
".....By the way, it 'should be Afon Lwyd', because Llwyd is an adjective, and there is a soft mutation when an adjective occurs immediately after a noun...."
No the slightest hint of 'variation' in that, was there?
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Re 347
More extraordinary rambling.
First of all you say there's no cut-off point...but then that there is!
And then:
"For as sure as eggs is chicken fruit, you can bet your boots that the WLB had a hand in instructing this council to make sure they chose a Cymraeg title for this area, once the Unitary regime was to be put in place."
Proof? Dates? Thought not.
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Don;t go spare mun Map - just it would be useful to find out why the County Borough is called Torfaen. I;m interested. - there are wonderful place names in Torfaen - Garndiffaith, Pontnewynydd, Pontrhydyrun, is Hafod yr ynys in Torfaen?
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"Glantorfaen House is the building" - that's helpul - that means "the banks of the Torfaen" strongly supports the river hypothesis. As to the WLB pressurising for a Welsh name.....they were not about in 1974...and Map please God don't dispute that.
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message 349...
This diatribe deserves no answer, as it is just stupid gruntings to make an argument, as usual, for arguments sake.
Messages 350 & 351.
I am sorry Dewi, but Glantorfaen House does NOT support the hypothesis, for the very reasons I have given....
...Since at least 1800, that is 210 years ago, in written record, the river has never been know as Afon Torfaen, further research by myself, later, may well turn up a date when it may have been called that, but so far not so.
And, as that is the case, then for all normal purposes, it has, effectively, never been called that.
Should Torfaen wish to have the name of the river altered to Afon Torfaen, then that is their option, but I feel the council would have an uphill struggle to make such an alteration, in the face of that 200 years, or so, of historical fact. Far too many other agencies involved, ONS being just one. Not to mention the actual population of the borough.
Everyone I know is familiar with Afon Llywd, and such a alteration may well not be taken to, at least by those who have grown up with the present name.
Many still fail to refer to Torfaen, and use Pontypool, Cwmbran, Bleanavon, etc rather than the new name of the borough.
I have asked my postman, he tells me they get FEW mailings that use Torfaen.
In the main, council and business mail, private mail and a lot of junk mail never put Torfaen in the address, it's either one of the constituent areas, or many times in my own case, Varteg, Pontypool.
Other areas the same, with Pontypool being the mail sorting office.
The reason for that being, Pontypool is the Royal Mail postal town. It does nmot recognise Torfaen, as such.
I accept that the Welsh Language Board my well not have been about in 1974, but pressures for a Welshification of all things to do with the inclusion of Monmouthshire in to Wales, certainly existed. Otherwise we would not be having such debate today.
It was only after 1974 that all this name changing came about, commencing with turning parts of Mon and Glam into Gwent.
Prior to that, the vast majority of people in the area, had no inclination to see such changes, and I fully believe that the referendum in 1979 reflected their lack of interest in what was about to emerge in the separatist politicising of their area.
What was the result in 1979?... four to one against, as I recall.
A definite demonstration of the feelings of the people.
Hafodyrynys is in Caerphilly. But very close to the border of Torfaen.
Pontrhydyrun? I'll have to study the map.
Done that, yes it's in Cwmbran. I should have known, as I bought a car there some years ago.
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I've always said I thought it was an old name for the river - so we don't disagree - a reference to when it was used would be useful - but I've failed to find one also.
Hafod yr Ynys - coming from Crumlin through the lights the houses on the hill ar in Caerffili - Crumlin ward. But not from when you reach the crest - I always thought that that's where Torfaen started but I suppose it could be Blaenau Gwent for a bit?
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Message 353....
Caerphilly.
Torfaen commeces about a third of a mile further along,from the crest of the hill at the Sofryd junction, about where the old Hafodyrynys colliery was sited.
There is a large town marker sign on the left of the road, on both sides.
Going east, for Torfaen, west for Caerphilly.
Hope that clarifies the matter..
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Re 352
Another rant from a cantankerous old man! Why on earth are you up in arms over this? It has merely been pointed out that Afon Lwyd was probably known as Afon Torfaen in the past. That is all. Nobody wants to change that. Nobody. Only someone suffering from chronic paranoia could react as you do.
I'm sorry, but the name Glantorfaen House does give extra credence to the idea that Torfaen was the name of the river. To dismiss that is intellectual laziness.
As for your latest tirade, I had asked for proof and dates, knowing full well that there weren't any to back your case. And, as far as dates are concerned, Dewi has very easily blown your excuse of an argument out of the water.
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Re 343
mapexx,
You say:
Pease (sic) note the spelling of 'Afon Llywd'
It makes no sense in relation to the rest of 343, but you have chosen to spell it like that ever since. What warped logic is at work here? Are you perhaps implying that the incorrect spelling by someone at some point is in fact the correct spelling, because you think it might annoy some of us? But surely you wouldn't be that childish. Would you?
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Now I'm being pedantic but I think the set of houses opposite and around the Hafod yr Ynys Hotel could be classed as Sofrydd - and therefore Blaenau Gwent. I know the old Islwyn well and never leafletted these houses.
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Message 357...
To the point of being bleeding obvious, try wiki, enter Hafodyrynys, It tells you that it is in Caerphilly,
Sofryd is,... turn left at the top of the hill and proceed towards Llanhilleth.
After about three hundred yards you pass 'between' the village of Sofryd, houses on both sides of the road, that is.
To paraphrase you, maybe the Hafodyrynys Hotel gives a clue?
If you leave the Caerphilly side of the road at Hafodyrynys, for Sofryd, you will note it is spelled that way, If in the other hand, you approach it from the Llanhilleth(Blaenau Gwent) side, the name is spelled differently.
Some sort of ambiguity in the Cymraeg maybe? Or perhaps it's to do with two different councils not co-ordinating their use of a language they are unfamiliar with. Cymraeg that is.
Message 356....
I have spent some hours today on the Internet seeking to find a reference to the Afon Llwyd being earlier entitled the Afon Torfaen.
I failed to find such a reference.
However, apart from the Torfaen web site, on EVERY OTHER WEB SITE, from the ONS, through Britannica, Genuki, various religious historical sites and much more, I have yet to find a single one that spell it with a single 'L'.
Like I told you before, I know who I fall back on for accuracy, and it ain't someone with a complex to maintain.
Now if you can do better, be my guest. IF not, then shut your face and scoot off and annoy someone else.
Bloody pedantic long nose.
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What's Sofrydd in English MAp? - I think Wiki is wrong in this matter - part in the ard of Crumlin in Caerffili and part in Sofrydd in Blaenau Gwent. Don't reply I'll clarify.
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Re 358
Ah, the usual charmless insults of the school bully who lacks a real answer to anything. So, childish, very childish name calling will do it seems. Very sad.
"I have spent some hours today on the Internet seeking to find a reference to the Afon Llwyd being earlier entitled the Afon Torfaen."
- seriously, you need to get out more!!
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Ok - Now I am interested about Torfaen - I can find no historical reference to it any any encyclopedia, map or Gazeteer (apart from its current CB designation) - There is a refernce to it on Wikipedia, but that can be unreliable - but someone somewhere must know the true story????
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message 361...
What is it you wish to find out?
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Yeah Penddu - apart from that "Glantorfaen House". strange isn't it.
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http://www.ggat.org.uk/cadw/historic_landscape/Blaenavon/english/Blaenavon_003.htm
Might be getting somewhere - reference in last paragraph to a Nant Torfaen in Blaenafon - could this grow into the Afon Lwyd - or at least be a feed?
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message 359....
In a road atlas I have the name is shown as Swffryd, which if my memory serves me right, is the way it is spelled on the road sign at the Llanhilleth end of the village.
Google maps also state Swffryd.
At the Hafod' end, the sign says Sofryd, I'll have to pass by soon and take another look.
If you type Swffryd into your Google search box, you will get a list where Swffryd is shown as Blaenau Gwent.
If you type in Sofrydd (note 'dd') you will get a list, one of which items refers to Sofrydd Primary school, follow the link at the top, to LEA and you will get the Blaenau Gwent web site.
If you type in Hafodyrynys, you will also get a list, one of which quite clearly states.... Caerphilly.
I hope that makes it a bit clearer.
PS... so its SOVRED at the top and SOFFRED at the bottom, They must all be schizophrenic
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Message 364...
I also came to that reference yesterday, however it is a dead end, a blind alley, I could not get any further by using the term/name.
I tried all sorts of referenda, nothing came back at all.
But reading the link, made me think it actually refers to a stream, nant, but until I can contact my cousin an ex councillor for Blaenavon,who may know about it, and she is over 80, so she could be aware of any such nomenclature for local sites, I am unaware of any location for it myself..I'll keep trying.
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Sofrydd is the correct Welsh version - which is how people from the village say it - always found it peculiar where the (English ?) "Swffryd" came from. strange cartographers. I repeat I'll get back to you on the precise boundaries of Hafod yr Ynys - accept it's not in Torfaen though but do think it's splt.
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message 367...
I managed to contact my cuz, she served Blaenavon council for over ten years, and actually went to her seat for one purpose, to get shot of the two spoil heaps at Garn yr Erw.mIn which she succeeded.
She tells me she has never heard of Nant Torfaen, I would think that with her years of local experience and public service, as well as being the secretary/director of a large local engineering firm, plus she has lived in Blaenavon all her 80 years, she would have come across it, but no, she has not.
I revert to my earlier comment, it is an 'invention' of latter days, leading to the same name being adopted for the county borough that now bears it as a title.
It must have come from somewhere, but was that somewhere in the mind of a local Cymraeg writer, historian, poet, whatever, or was it plucked out of the air as sounding a likely name for a relatively fast flowing river, occasionally, which would appear to tumble rocks, as it poured down the valley?
As for the etymological derivation of Sofrydd, or Swfrydd, maybe the former is the correct Cymreag version, but the latter 'looks' more likely a candidate.
I will endeavour to get in touch with a local in that vicinity one day soon to try to obtain the pronunciation, be it the hard 'F'(v) or the softer 'Ff'(f).
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It's prounounced Sof(v)rydd.
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368 - I doubt whether the name Torfaen came from thin air - it must have been chosen prior to the 74 reorganisation - somebody somewhere must know - Map - why dont you ask the council information officer???
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message 369...
As I said in 368, I will get the confirmation either way from a resident of thatvvillage.
Message 370...
I will certainly try it, but no one I have spoken to, or no online source has provided any answers.
Town Hall here I come! Please await results, if any.
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371 I am sure you mean County Hall......
I even tried Hansard last night but still no clues
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Here's a hypothesis
There's an area of Blaenafon called Glantorfaen (only one reference to Nant Torfaen in the whole of cyberspace...) with a street called Glantorfaen Terrace. Blaenafon a very old industrial settlement (a higher population in 1780 than 1980) so we can assume these streets were named late 18th century to coincide with the ironworks developments.
Iron takes a lot of water in the process - (especially cooling etc).
I wonder if at the time there was a fast flowing stream river called torfaen but the industrial developments diverted the flow? Plausible?
Now what's a good book on Blaenafon's industrial development?
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Sorry - bigger population in 1790 than 1990.
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message 372...
No, I mean Town Hall, otherwise known as the 'civic centre' in Pontypool, which is the adminstrative centre of Torfaen CBC.
County Hall is a building in Cwmbran where some departments of Torfaen CBC are located, however the building is shared with Monmouthshire County Council, and is NOT the adminm centre of Torfaen.
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375 Lets agree to call it the Civic Centre then, as that is its name.
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message 373...
The book shop on the corner, by Abergavenny market, has a great range of books of local interest.
Message 376...
Whatever turns you on. But above the front entrance, carved into the stone frieze, it says Town Hall. Constructed by Col.Hanbury ( maybe Tenni(y)son) I'll stick with that.
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Any further Mapexx?
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message 378....
Sorry...Further what?
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Your results on torfaen origin. I've sent out requests.
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message 380....
Yes Dewi, I am awaiting a response from Torfaen CBC re the origin of both the name itself, and why, and by whom, the name was chosen to entitle the 'new' boro' in 1974.
The one person who may be able to answer, is now retired and has gone ex directory, so I cannot contact him. However I have asked TCBC to contact him, if they still retain his number, with a request he contacts me. I was very friendly with the guy, when he was the estate manager for TCBC, so I may yet get the response I am looking for.
The area inn Bleanavon, known in the past as Glantorfean, apparently no longer exists under that title. According to the Communications officer I spoke to, he does not recognise the name, apart from the solicitors office I mentioned in a previous message.
He also did not recognise Nant Torfaen, and agreed with me that as far as he was concrened the river has always been known as Afon Llywd.
I will today, attempt to contact the web site owners Glam and Gwent Arch Society in Swansea for their comments on these ambiguities in names around the Blaenavon area..
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381 - I am not going into the Town v County debate again, other than to say that when Col.Hanbury built it, it probably was the Town Hall. But times change.
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message 382....
Fair comment, but why make it?
I know times change, but as I pointed out to that chap in Torfaen CBC yesterday, when he 'corrected' me when I called Torfaen the Town, he said "Boro'", I retorted, "At the momment, but times change, there is nothing hard and fast in political machinations, and the boro' could just as easily be broken up, and a reversion to both Town and County be put in place".
He reluctantly agreed, and also said the way things are looking he would not be surprised if that did not occur in the not too distant future.
However, that is all I am concrened with at the moment, the ongoing between Dewi and myself.
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Sorry Map - couldnt resist it - but I am genuinely interested in source of Torfaen name.
With regards a reversion to Town and County I dont think that will happen - and while the WAG has today ruled out another council reorganisation, I expect there to be a bit of tidying up in the future to merge some of the smaller councils - maybe Torfaen with Monmouthshire?
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message384....
The point is, re-organisation may not be on the cards in the immediate future, but taking into accout the FIVE re-orgs that have been the burden on the NHS since the Assembly took over that organisation, More or less, one every two years, I rule nothing out.
But again to follow your last remark,, if Torfaen and Mon combine, what will we be left with?
A COUNTY,... of course, much as I said in my previous message, would that not be?
You must realise that Monmouthshire + Torfaen actually were Monmouthshire, or latterly..... Gwent.
That would then fall back on the idea of Unitary Authority, and unless matters are, or could be, taken to accept such a reversion, it could handle all community business, (highly likeley in these days of IT) then CBC's would be taken down, and towns and townships brought back into being.
Civic centres would revert to Town Halls, and County Hall in Cwmbran would once again fullfil it's original role.
Not too impossible a scenario, as I see things.
The name I will hopefully get answers about soon.
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Whatever realignments take place of the borders of the counties/county boroughs, I doubt whether we will see a return to the two tier system in the forseeable future.
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message 386...
I did a reply, honest I did, but on the very instant I was about to press the send button we had a bloody power cut.
Since then I have done a few other things, and more or less lost interest in that reply.
I will say... Considering certain factors, and taking into account the rapidity with which local authority arrangements have been disturbed and interfered with over the last two decades, I am nowhere near convinced we have a stable situation.
What we had lasted for more than a century, give or take the odd modification, such as the dispensation with Aldermen( when was that?.. about fifty years ago)
Since 1974, we have had about at least three alterations, so stability is not really built in, and there is ample scope for yet further meddling by the powers that be.
Blase acceptance is therefore not to be taken for granted. Things could alter almost overnight, given the right circumstances.
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#387
The scope for change is being written about in the press, talk of amalgamating down to five authorities, that would result in many thousands of people becoming supernumerary, with subsequent redundancies and thereafter massive savings.
It is certainly worth considering, A WAG spokeswoman is reported as saying The Assembly Government has no plans to change the structure of local government in Wales. Now that is big of them, not opening the subject to discussion, is this another example of democracy in action.
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"You must realise that Monmouthshire + Torfaen actually were Monmouthshire, or latterly..... Gwent."
Well,,plus Islwyn, Newport & Blaenau Gwent....and maybe, just maybe we were Gwent aq little while before Monmouthshire....
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message 389...
I took that as read, Dewi. but in the context of the previous and ongoing discussion Torfaen and Monmouthshire would have covered it for now.
Any way. I am awaiting a feedback from a few sources re the nemes we have been talking about. Hopefully tomorrow I shall; have somethinhgf to add to what ahs alraedy been mentioned.
Re: the name of Sofrydd or Swffryd, I am to get an e mail from Caerphiily council, maybe tomorrow also, with an attachement from the Aberystwyth Library of Wales (or some such) that they had already had some time ago, over the very same name. Others have apparently raised the subject.
The guy told me today that the name cannot be given a meaning, even in Cymraeg, it is not recognised. Nor, he tells me, is there any way to say it is correctly spelled one way or the other.
It seems both Caerphilly, and Blaenau Gqwent have been at pains to discover both meaning and correct Cyraeg spelling, but without sucess.
A further note is to be added, to state that Hafodyrynys IS in Caerphilly, as I stated previously.
I would be very handy if we had a common drop off point, post office box or somesuch, so documents, or copies, of could be interchanged between contributors. Anonimity is OK some times, but can be a damned nuisance when these sort of debates are ongoing.
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message 390...PS
Another thought crossed my mind last night in bed.
The Cymraeg brigade demand that all place names be in Cymraeg even if it means actually 'inventing' a name to accompany the original English version.
I am not saying there is no Cymraeg equivalent, or am I saying that the English is the original name, for example Newport /Casnewydd, but even there lies argument.
Anyway..... I see Torfaen on the road signs, and pretty well everywhere else around here, also Cwmbran, so why no English translation, direct, Torfaen = 'Rock Breaker' or Cwmbran = 'Crow Valley'
If the Cymro demand there should be equality in titling signage, where's the equality in our more newer named areas?
So I now require that 'Rock Breaker' and 'Crow Valley' appear on our signs. Sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander.
In fact why not go the whole hog, and have ALL signage in two languages.
Every place name with it's English meaning, as well as its Cymraeg.
Or are we to be only allowed it to be in Cymraeg?
If so, where's the equality in languages for Wales, after all?
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Re 391
Can you give me an example of a recently 'invented' (your word) Welsh place name that is now displayed as a translation of the English?
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I actually think we can reduce quite easily the bilingualism necessary for place names with a bit of give and take.
Brynmawr - Bryn-mawr. Risca - Rhisga. I see no issues with using Brynmawr and Risca only. The other way would there be an issue in just using Blaenafon and Cwmafon and dropping the v? - they are just spelt wrongly.
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message 393....
Not quite with you there Dewi.. I would say that if you gave a pencil and paper to 90% of the population of Gwent, certainly Torfaen, and asked them to write down Blaenavon and Cwmavon, you would get them both spelled with the 'v'.99% of the time.
People around here think the 'f' is an affectation. That's because they are English speakers, and do not normally recognise the 'f' as hard.
Many are also at a loss when faced with the 'dd' and 'Ll'.
I have heard a some, who are immigrants from over the Dyke, when faced with the Cymraeg spelling of Blaenafon, utter the name as Blaenaffon. Most disconcerting to someone, myself, who does make the effort to pronounce as intened.
In fact there is chap who lives along the road from Cwmafon who still, to this day, and he's been around for at least ten years, says Cuumaffon.
Invariably a word using 'dd' is simply pronounced as though just one 'd' is present. The 'Ll' is invariablty taken as single 'L', the 'chl' sort of emphasis is not even attempted.
That aside, where does Risca and Bryn Mawr come into it?
That said, I have a difficulty with Risca.
On the other side (east) of Newport lies Usk, thye name taken from the river, which originated from the name used apparently by the Romans Isca Siluriium.
Isca appears to be derived from an ancient word which also gave not only Usk, but also Esk, Axe, esk and a few more, all from that base 'Isca' meaning water,
The same word gives us, by derivation, Whiskey. (Another time maybe).
Now, to me, it seems to much of a coincidence that a similar name, to within one letter, should be applied to another township.
Especially when the name is hardly traceable through Cymraeg etymology, unless you can put me straight on that.
Bt to refer back to where I began... The question I posed was in regards the demand from the Cymraeg element that the labnguga be give eqaul status with English, no problem there for me, but by that token as I so asked, when will we get 'Rock Breaker' and 'Crow Valley' on our road signage?
If we are compelled to tolerate Newport/Castelnewydd, Swansea/Abertawe, Anglesea/Ynys Mon, why not actual translations for those two towns I referred to in this area?
We get Trenewydd/Newtown,Neath/Nedd, Pont y Pwl/Pontypool, Pen y Bont/Bridgend, and a whole host more ofn the same.
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Only those living in a locality should have the naming privilege, and by the same token and logic a place should only have one untranslated name. Translations, in the Wales context, is nothing other than a minority imposing its will upon the majority, I write this with the authority that no translations of Ystrad Mynach in the Caerphilly Borough has an English translation on signs.
With reference to correct spelling, it doesn't matter whether the name is English, Welsh or Wenglish, as a Noun its spelling is correct no-matter how it is presented.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
No worries really - put what you want on the signs as long as the Welsh bit is spelled correctly. Blaenavon with a "v" is just daft.
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message 397...
Sorry to disagree, we have an English only regime in this area, I can assure you that the people do not recognise Blaenavon with an f.
Actually what I mean is, it is more usually recognised, and pronounced, with the v. The hard 'f' is not used locally.
One chap near here, an incomer, even after being here ten years, when he first arrived, saw the name in Cymraeg fashion and still calls it Blinaffon. But I told you that before.
The same with Cwmafon, he calls it CUUMaffon, it's all about what people are used to,. Not what the WLB insists is 'correct'.
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No answer to 392 then (unless it was 396)
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It's nothing to do with what the WLB say is correct. "Blaenavon" and "Cwmavon" are Welsh names - you are not denying that - then just why not spell them right? Indeed in the case of Blaenafon I believe the name was chaged to Bleanavon in an attempt to appear posh....a long time ago.
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It has been interesting reading the two sides of this argument, have either of the two main contributors, mapexx and Dewi_H, considered the evolution of language. What might be considered correct by either party today is transitory, so why the great issue ?
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IK don't think there is a great issue Stony - we cab reduce the necessity for 2 names with a little imagination - for instance as a Welsh speaker I don't mind Risca not Rhisga or Brynmawr not Bryn-Mawr - save some paint. As to evolution of language - Blaenafon and Cwmafon are Welsh names - just spell them directl and same some more paint. Another example of a stupid Vs is Govilon - just spell it Gofilon and job done.
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This keyboard is dodgy.
We "can" not "cab"- "correctly" not "directl"
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message 402.....
I am well aware that the Cymraeg spelling is for one person correct.
However as I have made clear, in this area, those two, three if you include Govilon, and yet far more if you dig deep enough, are spelled in the English fashion and most importantly, have been so for many decades.
There was NEVER a road sign, a passage in a book on the locality, or in public documentation that spelled these names with the hard 'f'.
Until that is, the language gestapo began to throw their weight about.
To prove that, all you need to do is the pencil and paper poll I suggested a few messages ago.
One classic example is Abergavenny.
I have spent some time rooting through maps and books in my possession, even took a look on line and in my local library, only to find up until about ten years ago NO ONE spelled it in the Cymraeg style.
Even authors, respectful of their Cymraeg community, failed to alter what had been common practice in this region for probably over a century and a half.
As I said before, the use of the Cymraeg spelling regime is looked on as an affectation amongst most of the people who live in this area. Born and bred here in case you think I only refer to incomers.
What is taken to be the case external to the eastern valley I cannot comment on, as I have little experience of linguistic preferences elsewhere.
It is not missed that West Wales, more or less, makes a similar declaration, in respect of his home region.
Simply put, irrespective of what the language police would have, the PEOPLE themselves opt for what they have been born and bred to.
Whilst at present they are not apparebntly concerned, the more the pressure is applied, the more they will begin to rebel.
This is why I and others continue to state that it would be far more sensible to allow the language to take care of itself, through its natural friends, than to create a large ocean of enemies, by demanding all bend to the will of the like of the LWB.
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RE: message 396
The moderators have removed the message, and I am attempting to get it restored, because they claim, it 'may' breach copyright.
Nothing I can do about it until I can contact the source of the material that has been removed. Monday should see that matter corrected in my favour.
Unless the mods decide my complaint be upheld and they restore as requested. We shall see.
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mapexx.....
Govilon was the spelling used in the Slater's Directory of Monmouthshire 1868.
A century of usage in this instance, I suggest, produces a Noun.
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"There was NEVER a road sign, a passage in a book on the locality, or in public documentation that spelled these names with the hard 'f'.
Until that is, the language gestapo began to throw their weight about."
1) It's a soft F
2) you are wrong - the change from Blaenafon to Blaenavon is historically recent - I'll do some digging.
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[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
Quite interesting about Blaenafon's chapels
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message 396.....again...
I have provided the moderatoprs with evidence that the message does NOT contravene or infringe on copyright, but so far they seem releuctant to replace the body of the emssage.
I will have to wait and see I suppose.
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message 407....
I suggest you re read message 404.
A single 'f' is equivalent to 'v' in the English. Therefore it is 'hard'.
Blaenavon, as stated in message 404, along with all other local names containing the 'V', were as you say, but as I had already stated, only altered to the Cymraeg spelling in ....
"..........I have spent some time rooting through maps and books in my possession, even took a look on line and in my local library, only to find, up until about ten years ago NO ONE spelled it in the Cymraeg style....."
....or did you not read that in 404?
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"..........I have spent some time rooting through maps and books in my possession, even took a look on line and in my local library, only to find, up until about ten years ago NO ONE spelled it in the Cymraeg style....."
....or did you not read that in 404?
Yep - I read it and you are wrong - I tried to post a PDF file on the History of Blaenafon chapels full of the earlier spelling but it was blocked.
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http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~monfamilies/trev-bur-ur-b.htm
I hope that gets thorough - that's the Trevethin Parish burial records - contains a number of references to "Blaenafon" in writing !!!
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#412
From the reference document, adjacent entries......
29/1/1864, Ellen, Brian, , 36, , , , , Blaenavon,
13/1/1874, Jeremiah, Brian, , 75, , , , , Blaenafon,
...... and many other instances of both variants of the same location.
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Yeah Stonemason - now doesn't this support the thesis that "Blaenafon" was the orignal spelling?
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The jury would still be out on this reference ......
earliest afon ..... 1860
earliest avon ..... 1827
number of afon references ..... 3
number of avon references ..... 17
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Yeah - but I wonder if it's "Blaenafon" on the death certificate because it was "Blaenafon" on the birth certificate ? Does the Maths work then Stony?
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I'll see if I dig out some birth records...isn't this more fun than our usual dross....
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I don't think it is maths Dewi_H, I think it is people.
My family have been researching our family tree, trees, and one of the big problems we come up against is variant spelling, and quite recent dates at that, when you spiral back to the mid 18th century it can be quite bizarre.
But in this instance I am going to suggest the spelling variant would be dependant upon whether the scribe was a Welsh or English speaker, the logic I apply relates to the absence of "v" from the Welsh alphabet.
I don't have an axe to grind either way.
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"up until about ten years ago NO ONE spelled it in the Cymraeg style....."
Mapexx - say "Sorry Dewi you were right" - Go on you can do it
!!!!!
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message 419...
Dewi, I tghink researching old parish records is a bit of a twistyer.
I am well aware that Blaenafon muts have been the origibnal spelling, but what I said and still say, that until the langauge nuts got control of the asylum, most of the modern records, rioad signs officuial documentaion, etc etce tec, used tghe 'V' in these names.
Now, I suppose if I could be bothered to do research far enough back, I could find Blaenavon spelled 'crappy old village with a slimy refuse, and effluent filled, stream running through it, or some such title, in Cymreag of course, but that is not the game..
I stick with telling you, as before, most here in this area, will still spell it, written down, as BlaenaVon..
In other words, the lingo gestapo have not, as yet, managed to thrust their 'rules and regulations' very far dowm the throats of the residents of the eastern valley.
Apart from spending inordinate amounts of taxpayers cash on road signage, that is.
What they may have managed to enforce where you live, is a different matter, and as stated many times before, not all follow the same piper, or sing from the same hymn sheet..
Now,... you go on and say, "Sorry Mapexx you ARE right"!!!!
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"up until about ten years ago NO ONE spelled it in the Cymraeg style....."
Mapexx you have very little style. You stated above that "NO ONE" in big bold letters spelled it in the Cymraeg style till about ten years ago.
Just admit you are wrong mun.
As for:
"most here in this area, will still spell it, written down, as BlaenaVon.." - When have I disagreed with that?
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And:
"There was NEVER a road sign, a passage in a book on the locality, or in public documentation that spelled these names with the hard 'f'."
I've just found examples in public documentation.
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message 422
As I am sure I could, if I needed to so do.
Once again you are skirting my messages.
I will repeat for the very last time.
Considering the estimated number of Cymraeg fluents in this area, for at least the last fifty, or more, years has hovered aroung a couple of percentage points, to all intents and purposes, when I say NO ONE, I mean NO ONE.
So if you now say you agree, what's your beef?
As a matter of interest, what are the dates on that public documentation?
I will concede, maybe I should have said fifteen to twenty years ago, but time has shot past so fast for me the last decade, I really cannot recall the nineties, I was far too busy making a living during that decade to worry overmuch about what the Assembly was getting up to with our road signs etc.
BlaenaVon it was, and as I see it, until there is a major earth-shift in public perception in the Eastern valley language scenario, that is how it will remains irrespective of what appears on the road signs, etc.
AS stated, most around here read a single 'f' as a soft 'f', and where a hard 'f' is written, these folk will make it soft anyway, in their daily speech.
How many years it will take to modify that oral trait, is anyone's guess, but you can bet it will not be overnight.
By the time it comes about, or perhaps I should say, long before, I fully expect all this WLB pressure to have been eradicated, so the matter should really never arise anyway.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
And for the n'th a single "f" is a soft "f" like in Torfaen for God's sake.
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message 425....
Torfaen id pronounced TorVaen.
Not Torffaen.
As I am certain you do not live in this area, I suggest you try asking for confirmantion from some other TorVaen resident.
Give the council a ring 01495 762200.
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message 425....
from the Collins Welsh. english dictionary...
Consonants:
CH: as Scottish 'loch'.
DD: as th in English 'this'
F: as English 'v'(hard)
FF:as English 'f'(soft)
G: always as in English 'go'
NG: as in English 'sing'
LL: difficult to put on paper. but approx as in Eng. 'CHL'
PH:as English 'f'
TH: as in English 'thin'
"....Pathetic Map - you game me a challenge - I met it and now you decline it - you are a pathetic wimp..."
Now who is the pathetic wimp?
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message 426...
It seems the moderators did not accept my quoting the telephone number of Torfaen civic centre, so I will repeat, sans telephone number.
Torfaen is pronounced TorVaen. Not Torffaen.
Or to clarify it, in pronunciation terms, Torevine. Not Torefine.
A call to Torfaen civic center will confirm that.
Now, I do not know, or care, if you do, or do not, speak Cymraeg, that is the way things are in the Eastern Valley, which is more or less the area covered by Torfaen. Message 427 also confirms the pronunciation.
As far as I am aware, every Cymraeg word using the single 'f' ensures the word uses the letter as the English 'V'. That is, 'hard'
I will be corrected, if wrong, I am sure, by a fully fluent Cynmraeg speaker. One who knows the difference between the 'f' and the 'ff'.
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Mapexx - forgive me if I'm technically wrong but the "V" sound sounds much softer to me than the "F" sound.
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message 429...
I can only tell it as it is.
I do not wish to take this any further, so I suggest you approach a fluent Cymraeg speaker for any further clarification. If you need it that is.
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"I suggest you approach a fluent Cymraeg speaker for any further clarification"
Mapexx - you can't help yourself can you. F in Welsh = V in English. To my (fluent!!) Welsh speaking ear F is softer than ff in Welsh as v is softer than f in English.
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message 431....
I am sorry, I do not mean anything offensive in this, but you are so off track it is unbelievable.
All the time you are making such ludicrous comments, those who belong to the Cymraeg speaking community must really wonder what planet you are on.
After such a gaffe, there is no way you are a fluent Cymraeg speaker. I doubt your credentials in that language.
I make this one more try at getting you to accept what I say.
The reason why BlaenaVon has been spelled with a 'v' for the last century and a half, is because those who made maps, took the census, and taught from an English background, did not understand, or decided to ignore, the fact that the single 'f' is, in pronunciation the exact same as the 'V' in the English alphabet. Therefore it is HARD.
They heard it being pronounced as a 'V' and wrote it down as that.
To soften the 'V' sound, Cymraeg uses the 'ff', therefore BlaenaFon, as written, would become BlaenaFFon, which it certainly is not.
You have been given example after example. It would seem you have no access to a Cymraeg speaker, in fact are you even in Wales?
Now, if you persist in making such uninformed statements, as in your least message, then I can say no more, other than you are simply and utterly wrong.
Others who read this blog, and who are in the slightest knowledgeable, will also have read the definitions from Collins Dictionary, re the consonants, as mentioned previously. They will understand why I am so direct with you over this matter.
You do not comprehend, or will not, deliberately, plain and simple, and this therefore, IS my final message on the subject.
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Further to message 432,...
Maybe Betsan, a fluent Cymraeg speaker as I understand, could settle it for you.
How about it Betsan? (or one of her her moderators in lieu)
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