What did I miss?
A question from a member of a faith group on human rights and asylum seekers. Silence from the panel who look to Sir Emyr. He recognises a hospital pass when he sees one. He is, after all, a bit of an expert on the UN and the relations of any number of international institutions with it.
Foreign affairs, yes, they would be reserved. But the panel has had a moment to think. That doesn't mean, says Helen Mary Jones, that Ministers in Wales can't raise a voice about issues like asylum seekers. What about Ama Sumani, says the Archbishop, who was deported despite receiving life-prolonging treatment in a Cardiff hospital? Legal powers are one thing. Moral powers are another.
Lord Richard Livsey is short and sharp: what should or would trigger a referendum?
Richard Wyn Jones evokes his "several" dead grandfathers to explain why he's not a betting man. By several, we take it he means two. Forget 'should' then. What WILL trigger a referendum? David Cameron taking over at Number 10.
Tristan Garel-Jones isn't sure how to answer the question but IS sure that if there is to be a referendum, then the talented Welsh men and women who don't happen to live in Wales, maybe because "they've reached the top of the tree in London or in Paris," should be allowed to vote. No! shouts the audience. So what are we saying to young, ambitious Welsh people asks Mr Garel-Jones who make it to the top? Gee, ta, says the audience, jam packed full of people who are on their way to the top in Wales, if not there already.
What are we saying to Sir Emyr he adds? I don't know what his personal life is (perish the thought that the man should have one until the ink on his report is dry) but does he get a vote? What about the Welshman who happens to have become Archbishop of Canterbury?
The other Archbishop, the one who has at least reached the top of the tree in Wales, tries to answer the question posed, as does Sir Emyr. The referendum should be held when the politicians choose to hold it and they won't hold it until they're quite sure it is at the very least winnable. His job is to set out the arguments but the real job, he smiles, is working out which are the killing arguments.
Nick Ainger wants to see a referendum triggered but is entirely clear that it ain't going to happen. If Labour and Plaid pulling together barely scraped a yes vote last time round, there's no way it'll be won any time soon. If it's lost? Then what does that do to the crediblity of the Assembly, that ten, twelve, fifteen years down the line the people of Wales can't be persuaded to give it more powers?
It's over to the audience - still smarting and feeling dissed by Tristan Garel-Jones. "I'm going to set up a new organisation" says a woman who has jumped to her feet, "Madams (as least I think she said Madams ...) for Sticking to the Point and Answering the Questions! A large part of the audience loves it.
"I'm a proud Welshman" says the next to get the microphone, "that's why I want a referendum so we can say No for once and for all". The other, smaller part of the audience loves it.
Time to vote. If there were a referendum tomorrow, would you vote?
87% would. 13% would not.
And if you voted, would you vote to leave things as they are, or vote to give the National Assembly law making powers all at once?
64% want law making powers; 36% don't.
Is that nearly three quarters asks the compere, clearly thinking with some pleasure that these public events are all over.
Sir Emyr jumps in. Nearly two thirds I think you'll find ...
Time for refreshments and "a treat" - arias sung by a young Chinese opera student who is probably hoping to reach the top of the tree in her own country. Beats a curry.
It is now.
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~45~RS~)
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64% want primary law making powers; 36% don't.
Yet another solid margin in favour. 18% this time. Fairly typical.
All we have to do now is wait and see what the AWC's final survey will show. I expect it will show an improvement on the 13% margin last time round (a margin independently backed up by the BBC's own poll by ICM). It will be at least 15% ... perhaps 20%.
Will that be enough? Of course. Put it this way, if Gordon Brown got even one poll showing Labour only 5% ahead he'd call a general election the very next day!
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Now that WAS embarrassing! Where's the edit button when you most need it?
Make that 28%. Better than average. But I still expect a 15-20% margin in the final survey.
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She was supurb, the student, loved her rendition of Sumertime, and the canapes were nice. Tristan Garel-Jones not so good... trying to open that can of worms of expats being able to vote and the corollary of non Welsh in Wales being excluded (how could anyone work that one out). A majority vote in a self selected audience doesn't mean much, but some of it was interesting. I was disappointed that there wasn't much in the way of a coherent argument why there should be a no vote in the referendum, some in the audience wanted to turn back the clock and I think even abolish the Welsh Office. Lots of passion but not a lot of clarity.
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I think the Yes brigade need to get Sir Tristan Garel- Jones out more often. He'd sway any crowd in favour of more powers, partly so they can tell him what they think of the quite astonishing arrogance he displayed towards the rest of us tonight.
Is he the Yes campaign's secret weapon? Probably, especially when they find out how much he gets per day just for 'clocking in' at the house of Lords... rather more than my father got when he and most of his ex-workmates 'clocked out' of work last time Garel-Jones's lot were in power!
The 'top of the tree' indeed.
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I enjoyed it. I thought Sir Emyr what's his name was pretty damn cool - self deprecating. Richard great as always and Helen Mary very considered, = good.
Me I think Calman changes stuff. I want a Parliament for Prosperity - and I think "No representation without taxation" is a good principle.
Wasn't Garel Jones useless?
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Betsan Powys: "Richard Wyn Jones evokes his "several" dead grandfathers to explain why he's not a betting man. By several, we take it he means two. Forget 'should' then. What WILL trigger a referendum? David Cameron taking over at Number 10."
I've been saying this for years. Historically, every advance in for the Welsh language and independence comes as a direct result of Conservative policies in London. I can't think of one instance that is not related. With UK Labour sure to lose the next General Election, those Welsh Labour supporters in the Coalition Government now.... and their possible successors.... see continued political life in more powers for the Assembly.
I wonder if the event was recorded and put on YouTube? I shall take a look. Can anyone say if the event was recorded?
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re: 6
I just reread my own comment and it looks as though I am praising the Tory's, what I ment to convay is that Tory apathy of Wales and instances of down right hostility to the people and language have always led to the Welsh (Labour, Plaid, and Liberal supporters) demanding more authority and self determination and getting it.
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Betsan, how large a sample would this vote be representative of? Could it be described as representative? ..... importantly ..... was it possible to count the audience through the fog of political turpitude?
But seriously, did you meet the Warners of Perthcelyn in the audience, maybe their neighbours, how do they view the political activities of Cardiff Bay, how do they see the future, those ordinary people of Wales, what are their political aspirations.
#6, DC has already spoken of taking democracy to the people, he did not exclude the people of Wales, less government with better governance, another case of less is more, much less hopefully.
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One point being missed Betsan is the audience maybe self selecting but it is very indicative of the people who are likely to campaign and participate actively in a referendum. In that sense I understand that at all the meetings the 'True Wales' mob have been completely out gunned.
Another point is about quality of argument. The 'No' arguments come across as completely disparate and negative. Most of the points made are completely unrelated to the issue i.e more tax, no to independence, financial ruin etc.
When the referendum comes (and it will) you can conclude that the 'Yes' Campaign will have many more enthusiastic advocates promoting positive coherent arguments. Plus though technically about section 4 of the Act the campaign will inevitably play out as a vote about national identity, self confidence and self respect. I am certain of the outcome and can't wait for the fight.
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(Un)True Wales make a lot of noise, but most of it is irrelevant nonsense. There is a clear case which could be made (although not by me) for stopping the transfer of powers to Cardiff, but TW insist on clouding the debate with untruths, misconceptions and blind ignorance. Although their arguments will resonate with some, most people will disregard them as a bunch of crackpots.
On the other side, EJP has talked a lot about the technicalities of the LCO system, and the contents of Schedule 4, but most peoples eyes just glaze over at this point.
At the end of the day the referendum will boil down to a simple argument of the heart not the mind - The 'Yes' team will wrap themselves in the Red Dragon - The 'No' side will wrap themselves in the Union Jack.
The concept of 'Wales' has changed enormously since 1997 let alone 1979 and I predict a comfortable win for a referendum - 60% : 40%
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This is the point, the True Wales campaign seems to be based on the idea that there is a vast conspiracy to make Wales independent by stealth, they seem to include a large part of the Labour party in this conspiracy. As evidence they offer the suggestion that Wales should have an honours system! This isn't debate with rational arguments. Its a classic FUD campaign, Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt.
And yes Tristan Garel-Jones is a gem. He looked really petulant when the audience voted not to let the Welsh diaspora vote in any referendum.
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The Main Question
What percentage of the population actually understands the way in which devolution does or does not work.
I find it so complex with a Grand Welsh Committee and Legislative Competency Orders together with the constitutional black hole that is the devolution merry go round.
I doubt that most people including myself fully understand how decisions are made unless its on the basis of secret reports whose contents are kept from us by people who want more power or to conceal public service failure.
First introduce open, transparent, and fully accountable government and public services in a simple system that is accountable to the electorate.
To take our taxes and hand them over to a QUANGO and public spending bodies and then ban us from complaining about the quality of service, decisions that affect our lives, and maladministration is unacceptable in any civilised democracy.
Once these issues have been addressed, then ask us if we want more power in the knowledge of what we are actually voting for, and secondly make sure the power goes to the people and not an unaccountable elite.
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If and when the referendum comes it will be as much as a referendum on people's views of politics and politicians in general in Wales as a vote on whether the Assembly should have more powers. The Commission has been a complete waste of time and money. Having a final meeting In City Hall in Cardiff with a select few sums it all up. How many ordinary voters in the capital city knew or even care about the meeting. Very few I would argue. They have more important issues to worry about. The real argument revolves around would more powers make the lives of ordinary people any better and would it make Wales a more prosperous region of the UK. The Assembly in its first 10 years has had it easy because of the huge increase in the money available from the UK government. As a result the Assembly hasn't had to make difficult choices or has left those choices to those in areas such as local government who have to deliver the services. The next 10 years are going to be very different and it will be interesting to see how the Assembly reacts to this new environment. Rather than voting for more free this and that Assembly politicians as their Canandian counterparts in the early 1990s had to, will have to debate what they actually believe government in Wales at all levels should be providing. As for the timing of any referendum there is nothing to stop it being held before 2011 if the politicians want it to be held. The problem of course is that in their heart of hearts they are not sure how people will vote. Will those who have never voted in an Assembly election take the opportunity to give the political class a bloody nose? On a low turnout with probably very little campaigning in most areas could see an interesting result.In many areas the Labour Party,for example, which would be crucial for any yes vote is a complete shell incapable of campaigning on anything. The European election showed that in many parts of Wales voters react in much the same way as they do in other parts of the UK. The debate also needs to be widened to include issues such as tax raising powers and a completely new system of electing those who might be given the powers to decide the laws which effect all of us. You can't have a law making body that does not at least raise some income even community councils have that power.You also can't have a system in any democracy where a third of the legislature are effectively elected by the decisions of a tiny core of political activists as to where they will be on a closed list.
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#13 I would add that the public mood is for greater accountability regarding the way in which the political class and unaccountable elite spend, waste, or fraudulently use our money. The Welsh Assembly knows that there is corruption going on in our public services but because they have banned themselves and us from being able to do anything about it you now have an amoral attitude that public service fraud is perfectly acceptable because they can get away with it.
MPs used to think the same way! But now they know they cant get away with it any longer it has brought about an upright conscience and reaffirmed the concept of "public" rather than "self" service.
Has this upright attitude been devolved to Wales yet? Are we being promised reform and open government by the pro devolutionists and have they set an example? Or are they keeping it quiet for fear of devolution being seen as a failure?
Its a measure of just how out of touch politicians are with the people who made their opinions clear with the issue of MPs expenses. The BBC is following their lead with publishing the expenses of senior executives.
Betsan, the day will come when you have to publish your expenses to the Internet. My argument is that what applies to the BBC should also apply to everyone else who works for a public spending body.
Other public institutions need to do the same, the perk of officials being able to threaten people who rightfully complain with legal action to conceal corruption is enough to make an MP blush with embarrassment.
It would be worthy of a 21st century democracy to enforce a public complaints procedure as required by administrative law set out by the Nolan Committee on Standards in Public Life.
I agree with True Wales on the basis that we need to reform the current system before we make it worse and give the political class more power to abuse the system.
#11 This isn't debate with rational arguments. Its a classic FUD campaign, Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt.
There is no need for a campaign! The actions of those who want more power so they can then treat the electorate with more contempt are doing the job nicely.
The thought of giving these people more power under this system is a frightening prospect full of uncertainty and I doubt if the power is going to end up with the people.
The political class need to rebuild trust with the electorate and I see no sign of them doing that.
#10 If wanting greater accountability, more say in decisions that affect our lives and more open government in Wales means I have to wrap myself in a Union Jack to bring an end to the unaccountable power of the English crown then I would be proud to wear it.
Not sure what percentage of the electorate I speak for but I do not wish to be dragged into the pro and anti, devolution, language, English vs Welsh, more powers, and political parties debate on either side of the argument.
I want to vote on having more Obama style open and accountable government and public services. The days of decisions and government by secret reports should be over.
So my answer is NO to more power to do more of the same when what I really want is reform.
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re: 12. Neocromwellian
"The Main Question
What percentage of the population actually understands the way in which devolution does or does not work."
Well the truth is most people have very little idea where their taxes go to really. They have little idea which level of government really has an effect on their daily lives. This is true across all Liberal Western Democracies, not just the Welsh. So when you see eyes glaze when Sir Emry begains to speak on details about government... it really needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Details on government authority has very limited appeal really.
The real question for the Welsh people is... should the Welsh Assembly have primary law making authority on all domestic issues that effect the lives of the Welsh people, as compared to having Welsh issues debated by 606 non Welsh MPs who have an Anglo-Centric agenda.
re: 13 Benedek
(...) With respect, paragraphs are your friend! :)
"A paragraph typically consists of a unifying main point, thought, or idea accompanied by supporting details. Each paragraph builds on what came before and lays the ground or run the length of multiple pages, and may consist of one or many sentences."
Regarding your other points
1. "The real argument revolves around would more powers make the lives of ordinary people any better and would it make Wales a more prosperous region of the UK."
Yes they would. Professional politicians who are resident in Wales and closer to the people and empowered by the full force of law can craft legislation and enact incentives to encourage businesses to come to Wales or remain in the country. Currently, businesses are lured away from Wales because of the English Labour (as opposed to Welsh Labour) and Conservative bloc attracts businesses and companies into the English midlands. Nothing against the English bloc because they are doing for their constituents. But there is just so many of them.
There is no reason why Wales can not attract sustainable business and have a healthy trade practice with England that is similar to that of the relationship between Denmark has with economic powerhouse Germany.
2. "In many areas the Labour Party, for example, which would be crucial for any yes vote is a complete shell incapable of campaigning on anything."
It is a wake up calls yes, but with a Tory government in London Welsh Labour, Plaid, and Libdems will coalesce to oppose them. They will campaign far more fervently for more power for Wales akin to that of Scotland. For right now, the perception of the Labour-Plaid coalition is one of stability as compared to that of London. And the idea of a Tory government in London will stick in the throats of so many in Wales.
The animosity between Plaid and Welsh Labour is less then that between all of the parties and the Tories
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#14 Neocromwellian
True Wales, such as it is, is composed mainly of a handful of 'old' Labour anti-devolutionists, who have lost touch with reality that their party is dead. Blair and Brown have killed it, but its ghost is still wandering aimlessly around some valleys and other deprived communities.
They want the old Labour grip on Wales to continue. I can understand some of the Labour MPs opposing legislative devolution because they stand to lose just about everything if it happens. I can't condone it because its pure self-interest at their country's expense. They created the ridiculous, demeaning, insulting, and unworkable LCO process which everyone loathes. They did so to prevent legislative devolution and its been successful, but at a terrible price. True Wales can't be called a 'movement' as such, because it has no real policy platform, just plain negativity.
On the matter of reform, I'm with you all the way. The more fundamental, the better. Let's create a 'true democracy' instead of the sham which exists in the UK's political and governmental systems and institutions. I include the Assembly in that. Its sham devolution of the very worst kind. The people of Wales were sold a pup. We need real devolution, even better, self-determination.
I doubt that wrapping yourself in the union flag (more accurate than the 'union jack') will achieve anything. Its not a flag that I associate with much other than imperialism and militarism. Moreover my country is not represented on it, not that I would want its symbols sullied by being associated with it.
Of course the monarchy is unaccountable, being immensely secretive and expensive. Its Anglo-German, and essentially alien to Wales. The monarch is king/queen 'of England'. I'm not English and I don't live there. The imposition of a prince reminds me that I live in a country which was conquered and occupied, as he is heir to that tradition.
Not to mention that the monarchy is totally undemocratic, representing all the elements of privilege and class, which belong in a feudal age. It should have been swept away long ago.
Britain would have been a much better country were sovereignty vested constitutionally in its people, rather than in 'the crown in parliament' which keeps power at the top of the social pyramid.
On the question of a referendum. I'm on record as saying that I don't think its going to happen anytime soon, not in the currency of this Assembly at any rate. Most of Labour's dinosaurs at Westminster will campaign for a 'No' vote, there's doubt of that, and there could be another 1979 outcome. I suspect, although I have no evidence at all for that suspicion, that True Wales has the backing of some of them, and are little more than stooges for them.
Support for legislative devolution appears to be mounting in Wales. Its a positive sign that the old dispensation has failed our country and its people. The alternative to Cardiff is Westminster, and it has turned out to be an abomination. It won't, it can't be reformed, the two parties won't allow it. Some tinkering will take place but that's all, but it can't cover up the reality that its a failure for very long.
'You can fool some of the people all of the time, you can even fool all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time'. (Abraham Lincoln)
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16. Bryn_Teilo wrote
You had me until the anti monarchy statements :(
I agree that an Englishman can not serve as a Welsh prince, and believe that the Welsh monarchy should be vested in a Welshman. I reject the notion that constitutional monarchy is anachronistic with a modern left of center liberal democratic state, as Denmark, Norway, and Spain all demonstrate. Indeed, a constitutional monarchy can easily be codified in a Welsh constitution akin to that of Spain.
According to Sion Jobbins, Monarchy today is more about national identity then it is about "wealth and privilege", and if a Welsh constitutional prince or princess resident in Wales engenders that kind of national identity what is the harm in that?
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#15 Well the truth is most people have very little idea where their taxes go to really... Details on government authority has very limited appeal really.
That is not the TRUTH it is your OPINION not based on any reference to FACT and therefore, you can only speak or yourself!
If you right then the reason why people have very little idea of their taxes go is that governments refuse to tell them.
As with MPs expenses, the problem starts when they find out.
TREATING PEOPLE AS IF THEY ARE STUPID IS NOT A GOOD IDEA!
Moreover, I am making the point that we have a right to know, and it is the people who should be empowered to hold public servants to account.
Where have you been the last few weeks? People have forced the government to act and impose more regulation and authority on the way we are governed.
You dismiss this at your peril and lose sympathy for a what you consider to be the "real" question ...should the Welsh Assembly have primary law making authority on all domestic issues that effect the lives of the Welsh people,
If its to give more power to a corrupt unaccountable system then the "real" answer is NO.
The political class must reform this appalling system first.
With regard to the issue of MPs from other countries within the UK deciding Welsh issues the same applies to England.
As an Englishman I am more than happy for this to happen for the simple reason that it provides a safeguard against the worse excesses of nationalism whether it be Scottish, Irish, English, Welsh or God forbid British!
#14 On the matter of reform, I'm with you all the way. The more fundamental, the better. Let's create a 'true democracy' instead of the sham which exists in the UK's political and governmental systems and institutions. I include the Assembly in that. Its sham devolution of the very worst kind.
I totally agree with these comments but again make the point that we need to resolve these issues first as we all suffer from this appalling mess, and therefore we should all seek to resolve it. There are other issues that I would argue with but that is what debate is all about.
We would do much to resolve issues of reform in both England and Wales if we abolished crown immunity and held to account its associated elite including those institutions who are controlled by the Privy Council which we also need to abolish.
That brings me on to the role of the Church in Wales, what are they doing in this process? I firmly believe that we should keep religion out of politics especially the Anglican Church which in my view is just another branch of the state.
Are they after some kind of seat in the Assembly, as unlike English bishops they do not have a seat in the House of Lords. Its the FUD factor again Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt based upon the appalling record the Anglican church has on concealing abuse and the comment by Napoleon "Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet".
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#17 -Drachenfyre- wrote:
Dear old Drachenfyre, I will take you more seriously when I see and hear you campaigning for a monarchy in the US of A, or when you move to live in a country which has one.
I don't want to see Wales inflicted with a feudal undemocratic institution, no matter who leads it.
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#17 Drachenfyre
'Sion Jobbins'
He's a self-confessed republican. I can't believe that he was seriously suggesting other than tongue-in-cheek, that we should have the likes of Andrew or Harry as a Welsh king, and that they would change their name to Llywelyn or Owain I, or some suchlike. They wouldn't want to be king of Wales, in any case. They couldn't give up their claims to the English throne, and if ever they succeeded to it, we'd be back to square one. Plain daft! Sorry, Sion.
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Why is it that when someone has a differing viewpoint you NATIONALISTS need to lower yourselves into making nasty and childish comments.
Lets look at democracy and balance with regards to the AWC.
I like many of the Nationalists have been to Sir Emyr's tax funded yes campaigns throughout Wales. How many of his panels have been truly balanced. Last night's panel was a typical example of another political carve up that doesn't promote fairness and true democracy. Bishop - a well known advocate for Independence and chair of the yes campaign. Helen Mary Jones - Advocate of independence. Richard Wynn Jones - Well known Nationalist and advocate of independence. TG Jones - Tory who lives abroad and doesn't know what WAG is short for. Nick Ainger - Supporter of devolution - undecided on further powers.
Lets give the Nats. credit last night they turned up in their droves I didn't hear one Cardiff accent in the audience. Praise should also be given to Sir Emyr carefully selecting the loaded and preselected questions which were asked on the night. It was a breeze for the yes campaigners.
At the meeting a representative of TRUE WALES asked why should the people of Wales reward failure by giving more powers when - our school children's attainment levels are continually falling behind those children in England, the people of Wales have to wait 4 hours for an ambulance and endure a 4 hour wait in A&E. He also went on to ask would would the politicians be happy to go on to performance related pay.
I would ask LYN THOMAS, his fellow Nationalists and WAG Payroll members was the question asked by True WALES relevant to the debate or classic FUD campaign.
Finally, if you are that confident of victory call for a referendum now but you won't do that will you.
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Re 18
I think nomorepowers elegantly summarises the case against further devolution.
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Like a lot of people I have a great deal of respect for the Queen but when she goes its time to bring this feudal system to an end.
Monarchy has a place where they can do a lot of good work as a figurehead but not as Head of State or any public office whereby "wealth and privilege" is going to create an elite.
We need an elected President supervised by an elected Presidential Committee to safeguard our rights and keep the political class in check.
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So what have we learnt from this £1m commission? Surely even the most basic of polls would have come to the same conclusions given the size of the sample? But what does it prove? The Lions really are more important than welsh politics in the eyes of the welsh? .Anyone for canopes? A chorus of Pimms and arias? So typically Caaaaardiff? How about devolving
from Cardiff?
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22 As I pointed out in my earlier post, there are valid points that the No campaign could be using, and you just highlighted two (not that I agree with them, but at least they are relevant). Perhaps if you stick to real issues you might be taken seriously.
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Ah, the law of unintended consequences!
T G-Js call for expat participation in a referendum is fascinating. However, I wonder if it would need a lot more amplification and clarification before it could be applied.
These thoughts are just a sample of the amusements that this suggestion has created.
What is an expat?
- Is it for one generation or is it multi generational?
- If multigenerational, will it dilute over generations?
- What discount factor do you apply e.g. half for a child and a quarter for a grandchild?
- If so and if both parents are Welsh does each child will there be no discount factor?
- Will matters get interesting if you have (for example) a Welsh grandfather, a Welsh great-grandmother on one side and a Welsh mother on the other?
- How do we determine just how much of an expat is an expat?
- Will we be keeping a Welsh Stud Book to ensure eligibility is properly assessed and weightings are correctly applied?
- Who will be responsible for maintaining (and financing) the Welsh Stud Book
- Will we have an Expat of the Year Show at Olympia when the Champion Sires and Dams are paraded?
- Will Champions (and their offspring) have enhanced voting rights?
Where is an expat?
- Should there be different weightings for those who live in England (and dont start on the rest of GB) and those who live in the EU or beyond?
- If still owning property (and therefore a right to vote) but living outside Wales, does this make you an ex-expat?
- Does coming back regularly increase your weighting?
I think this will make the old Table Of Kindred look like childs play
The most intriguing aspect is that it would explicitly recognise the Welsh (as however defined) as belonging to a separate nation from England. This is because they would have to constitute a legally distinct that would be classified in terms of origins and their displacement thereof. This perhaps represents a step beyond the current Conservative position.
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27 The expat vote is yet another irrelevant diversion - everyone knows that it is just another tactic to sway the vote one way or another and to hell with democracy!!
There is only one electorate with a valid vote to cast, and that is everyone (irrespective of nationality, ethnicity or starsign) on the Electoral Register in Wales at the time of the referendum
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RE 19 & 22
Why all the angry capital letters?
I think it is better to state your points, rather than to bellow them.
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Wow... I make one of my very occasional visits to this site (in the spirit of one pausing at the grille of the monkey house in a zoo) and I'm stunned to find it actually contains some debate - that people I agree with and people I disagree with are talking about issues, and actually talking about the issues relevant to Betsan's blog. The cranks must be having a day off, there's no rants from the various pointyheads about the welsh-speaking conspiracy, and people of all shades of opinion are referring to a mixture of facts, personal experience and forceful (but never aggressive) opinion.
I'm amazed. I have to lie down.
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28
Agreed!
Post 27 was there to slap a bit of satire on a notion that begs for such treatment.
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Yes, Returnee, I suppose the bellowing capitals and the relentless bold type of my old favourite Stonemason is a let-down, but it's good going compared with the usual stuff on the comments pages.
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Ah, sorry - I spoke too soon: Nomorepowers complaining that there weren;t enough Cardiffians there last night. "I didn't hear one Cardiff accent in the audience" he says. Well, I'm from Cardiff and I'd like to know what a Cardiff accent is... my Asian neighbour's? My Welsh-speaking Cardiffian friend across the road, or the English peopel who've lived here 30 years...
You can;t win with some people! On the one hand they accuse us of being nationalists, then they complain when people from elsewhere come to meetings in 'their' town. True Wales says they're open to everyone, but the problem is that when one dares to disagree with them one is either too Welsh , not Welsh enough, or, now, it appears, doesn't have the right 'Cardiff' accent togo to a meeting in Cardiff. Presumably True Wales would do what they did in Romania, namely make it illegal to travel between towns and cities without permits?
With spokespeople like , it's no wonder they can;t decide whether they want a referendum or not, whether they want to scrap the assembly or keep it, or if they believe that Cardiff Bay AM's are an "Elite", but Westminster MPs are the salt of the earth.
Go figure!
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Sorry - me again. Returnee's point about Garel-Jones's call for expats to vote is probably the most intelligent analysis of the implications (un-thought-through by Garel-Jones, I should add) of his Lordship's unintended ermined foot-shooting. The idea that one's right to vote is based on ethnicity, heredity, origins (whatever they are!) is , if followed to its terminus, abhorrent. If someone from Plaid had said that , they'd have been lynched for 'racism'. When a tory grandee says it, it's suddenly OK.
No party in Wales should advocate that,m but I suspect that Garel-Jones's best defence here is simply his ignorance.
Yet again: I thought we pro-devolutionists were supposed to be the 'nats', the 'nationalists' etc. And yet I've seen one unionist lecture me on who can and can;t attend meetings in the capital city, and another tell me that voting rights should be conferred by birth, family and ethnicity.
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'In that sense I understand that at all the meetings the 'True Wales' mob have been completely out gunned'.
Mr. Davies - you obviously didn't attend many Convention meetings.
First 'True Wales' is a group of thinking and honourable individuals - not a 'mob'.
Secondly, in other meetings - for example at Torfaen, Newport and Llanhilleth and so on - the feeling against full law-making powers was unarguably dominant.
Thirdly, if you believe that the view that we should be spending our hard-earned taxes on quality public services rather than on more politicians and lawyers is not worthy of discussion, you are not, I might suggest, much of a democrat.
I would be interested to know whether the pro-lobby on this board are unemployed or whether they are working in the Assembly buildings in the vicinity of last night's meeting in City Hall. If they do receive their wages courtesy of the people of Wales, I would ask that they get on with their work, stop wasting our money and do their blogging from home in their own time like the rest of us.
As for the referendum, bring it on!
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#35 Notonationalism wrote:
"..more politicians.."
There are 646 MPs and 746 peers at Westminster. A total of 1392. That's for a population of 60 million.
The US House of Representatives has 435 members and the Senate 100 members. Total 535. That's for a population of 306 million. In addition each constituent state has its own legislature of varying sizes.
Take one example, Montana. It has a House of Representatives of 100 members and a Senate of 50 members. That's for a population of just under one million. The other states have similar sized legislatures.
In France the National Assembly has 577 members and the Senate 321 members, for a population of 63 million.
These countries value their democracies. They have written constitutions to limit the powers of their elected representatives (and they're ALL elected, unlike the UK, with its abominably undemocratic House of Lords).
You're quibling about Wales having (for the first time in 700 years) a small assembly of 60 members. Have some respect for your country and your people! Its a right that's been denied to us for far too long.
Many people in England are complaining at what they see as a disproportionate Scottish influence at Westminster, forgetting that the MPs from England can easily outvote all those MPs from the other nations combined. If they don't like it, the remedy is simple for them.
They have no reason to complain considering that we in Wales have been governed by others, including the English, for centuries, and are poverty-stricken in comparison to most of Europe as a consequence. We need fewer politicians at Westminster and more in Cardiff, with significantly more powers. Even Ulster controls criminal justice and the police. Westminster won't even let Wales legislate on the Language.
Finally we've seen just how awful is the UK political system. How its failed all of us. There isn't even genuine contrition for the mess they've landed us in. Cameron thinks its a good thing that his MPs are paying back a quarter of a million, when actually its an indication of how greedy, and even corrupt, many of them are. They should be sacked, or prosecuted, not praised for handing back the money that they wrongfully took. Then there's Gordon, who doesn't know what the word 'sorry' even sounds like.
The fact we don't have a legislative assembly is down to a handful of selfish Labour MPs. I could name them. They have denied us in Wales the power to improve the conditions here. They themselves have failed woefully to make Wales a better country for us to live in.
To misquote WSC, 'Never in the field of politics have so few done so little good and so much harm for their country - Wales'
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36
Northern Ireland is the killer here, if you excuse the grim pun.
If you are a terrorist, you will get all the devolution you want. The unionists, the left (old and new), the right, the whole lot of them will happily transfer all the powers you need as long as you kill and maim enough.
I have never heard any of our anti devolutionists demand the ending of devolution in Ulster. I wonder why?
If you are looking for devolution by peaceful and democratic means, the same people will do anything to hobble the process.
Our commitment to peace and democracy is treated with contempt by a fossilised few. But we will prevail; Wales will get appropriate self governance and we will prove that the ballot box will prevail over the bullet.
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#36, when writing of MP greed wrote .....
....... when actually its an indication of how greedy ......... They should be sacked, or prosecuted,....
Plaid Cymru MP for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy, claimed almost as much for food as for mortgage interest on his second home. Western Mail 21 June.
As his second home is in London, where property does not come cheap, is this indicative of a healthy appetite or someone who prefers to consume at a trough.
Sacked or prosecuted, maybe the stocks for hypocrisy.
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I've yet to see anyone - Notonationalism take note - explain why the current LCO system is any good, or why Westminster was better. Funny how the anti-devolution lobby kept shtum about MPs expenses! Only AM's expenses they're attacking...
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#37 Returnee wrote:
'If you are looking for devolution by peaceful and democratic means, the same people will do anything to hobble the process.'
Its an unfortunate fact of life that political power is not easily wrested away from governments of nation states. They are very jealous of their territory and power. Rarely is it achieved peacefully and through the ballot box.
Most of Britain's former colonies had to fight to achieve independence, and that is also true of the other European colonial powers. 'Terrorists' are those who oppose colonial domination. In truth they are better described as, 'freedom fighters'. On independence many became respectable leaders of independent states. There's immense hypocrisy in all of it, particularly on the part of the so-called 'mother country'.
Where there is the possiblity of self-determination being achieved through the ballot box, central governments will use every dirty trick in the book to prevent a vote in favour. They have more power and the resources to do so, as they control the police and the security services, as well as the media, and the electoral system.
The SNP and Plaid have had to campaign on a very uneven playing field as far as media coverage is concerned. It is undemocratic, but par for the course in such a situation. They have to reach a threshold in the public consciousness. Salmond is on the way to achieving it in Scotland.
If Scotland moves towards self-determination and a referendum in the medium term, we must be prepared to see the British State use its powers to discredit the SNP and its leaders in the run up to it. Its happened before, with Ireland, more than once. It will be nasty, and covert.
I don't support direct action of any kind - I condemn it. I want to see Wales achieve self-determination by persuasion, entirely democratically, but it will be a difficult struggle. It can be done.
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#38 TheStonemason wrote:
'..to consume at a trough.'
It is a trough, Stonemason. Its a WESTMINSTER trough.
You support Cameron and the Tories who won't carry out the necessary constitutional reforms to make the system truly answerable and accountable to us, the people.
You agree with his spin.... 'We're paying the money back... aren't we good... you should vote for us!'
Do we want self-serving greedy people making our laws?
IMO they're no better than Labour. Some LibDems have done it too. They all deserve our contempt.
Its not good enough just to hold an election, where the public don't have enough information to come to a proper decision. Often they will only have choice between one discredited party or another.
The onus should be on the politicians to prove that they are worthy to hold office. If it were up to me, ALL 646 would be deselected, and have to face a selection panel of constituents, a 'jury' (some 20 or so people) if you like, chosen randomly from the electoral roll, who would examine their expenses claims and record as MPs and decide whether or not they were fit to stand in another election. If not, they would be barred from public service for life.
In addition, the public prosecution service should decide if they should be prosecuted for fraud after a police investigation. If found guilty, they should serve five years, minimum.
Perhaps you have a better suggestion?
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#41, did you miss the mark .....
Plaid Cymru MP for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy
Westminster.
If any person is guilty of a fraud, the courts are able to impose a sentence such as you suggest, a crime is crime.
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#42
What about him? Be specific.
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#42 TheStonemason
If you read my comments, I have studiously avoided naming names as far as the expenses scandal is concerned. The media have done a good job of pointing the finger at the worst offenders.
You are using your bigotry to point the finger at an individual because you fundamentally diasgree with his party's policies, ie to attack the party and the policy and those who support it, using the expenses issue as a cloak for so doing.
That's underhand. You weaken your own arguments by doing it and its obvious to anyone who reads your comment, that that is what you're doing. You undermine your own standpoint. Attack the argument, not the person, when its their argument you take issue with.
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He was able to eat his way through a mountain of food at the taxpayers expense, as much for food as for the mortgage interest on his second home, others of all political flavours are similar I admit, whilst The Father of the House was a proverbial church mouse in comparison, an example for the others.
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Re 42 Looks like the pointy heads are back in action. Who was it who said that reading this blog is like watching the monkeys through the grille at the zoo....very true!!
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Re: Bryn 20/21
Well I am no advocate for monarchy in the US or really any other country. An advocate is someone who -like you say- actively campaigns one way or another. I do not actively campaign but rather here have brought it to light. It really depends on context.
And you are quite right that it is a matter for the people of Wales to vote on when the time comes but I think you may underestimate the allure of monarchy.
It just seems to me that the way self-determination is setting itself up it looks as though the Queen of England will also willy nilly be also Queen by right in Wales. And though I respect the work she has done on behalf of England, I would much rather see Welsh loyal to their own really. Wouldnt you prefer Welsh monarchist to look to a Welshman then to an Englishman?
And I admit to romantic notions of Welsh princes and princesses, and fully see modern constitutional monarchy as a viable choice for the people if they are truly educated on the issue. Nothing would be more nostalgic then to consider appointing the direct living patrilineal descendent of Owain ap Gryffydd of the House of Aberffraw. Commonly known as Owain Gwynedd as Prince of Wales.
One lives today Evan Vaughn Anwyl of Tywyn, Gwynedd.
Wouldnt that be historic justice on an epic scale? Restoring the family that had fought so valiantly for Welsh independence but were disinherited by the Edwardian Conquest and Statue of Rhuddlan?
Sion Jobbins wrote Why Not a Welsh Royal Family in the January 2008 edition of Cambria Magazine (you may also go to his official website and read the article there), and while he does admit that his inclinations are republican, he doesnt necessarily feel that Wales is or will be. His republicanism in the context of anti-English monarchy then anything else, which I bet is true of most Welsh republicans.
Jobbins was writing on the article Wales must have a Monarchy by DJ Davies (d. 1958), very influential Plaid essayist and himself a one-time republican who was, according to Professor John Davies, as equally influential in Plaid Cymru ideology. Davies is the one who articulated most of Plaids policies following Saunders Lewis departure as party president. Davies directly influenced Gwynfor Evans and by extension Ieuan Wyn Jones and Lord Elis-Thomas and Adam Price. Really Davies influenced the entire left wing of the party.
Davies had also served in the US military during the first world war.
Jobbins wrote that Welsh republicans cloak themselves in all the paraphernalia of native Welsh monarchy be it the Aberffraw family arms of Llywelyn I the Great or Llywelyn II the Last, or that of Owain Glen Dwr. Welsh republicans mark time by eulogizing the Welsh princes and Welsh royal families just as they attack the English monarchy. And it is not surprising really, because it was the Aberffraw family alone direct descendants of Rhodri the Great and further back the Manaw and Brithonic men of the North.. who by the 13th centuries had laid the foundation for an independent Welsh state, according to historian John Davies in his History of Wales.
No doubt that the English monarchy is shrouded in much Imperialistic Splendor and excessive colonial phat it will need to be trimmed down. But it works for the English.
You and I agree on almost most issues really, except for this. I respect that.
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#47 -Drachenfyre-
Everyone to their own predispositions, but I'm a republican by conviction. I know that there are arguments for monarchic systems, but I don't find them persuasive, so will not waste my time dealing with them here.
A monarchy, any monarchy, all monarchies, are undemocratic. In essence its a feudal concept. It might initially be set up by democratic consensus, but it would be undemocratic to bind future generations. Unlike you I have no romantic illusions about it. Its not a matter of being anti-English royalty or a particular dislike of the Windsors, although I don't find anyone in that family endearing.
It just feels wrong, by instinct. It would be bad for Wales, as it would be bad for the US, or for France. Its bad for the UK. It isn't right that people should be privileged by birth in perpetuity and given a semi-god-like status. Its class-ridden and aristocratic, and therefore socially divisive. It sets a bad example for the whole of society. I'm for a meritocracy.
The position of head of state should be reserved for a person who merits it through public confidence expressed in a secret ballot. It should not be dynastic. The US limits a presidential term to eight years for that very reason. A wise precaution. A dynasty brings patronage in its wake, an inevitable unhealthy mysticism, and a cult of royalty. Roosevelt came close to it.
Neither am I going to support one kind of monarchy against the other, because one is the lesser of two evils. It matters not one whit to me what DJ Davies, Saunders Lewis, Jobbins, or anyone else thought or thinks on the issue. You rightly conclude that in the event of self-determination, it will be the decision of the people of Wales. I would have to accept it, but would continue to oppose it until my last breath.
It is a disappointment to me that Plaid is not a republican party. I'm not quite sure where exactly it stands on the issue as I've never discussed it with anyone in the Party. To me Plaid is a vehicle, the only one which exists at the present time, which can bring us to self-determination, and for that reason alone I'll support it on that issue.
It was heartening to see Leanne Wood AM on the BBC's Question Time speaking of her republican convictions.
Plaid's other policies are largely irrelevant to me, although they might be important to their members and other supporters. It has to be a broad church, encompassing the entire political spectrum, from far right to far left, as a desire for self-determination can exist regardless of political opinions on other issues.
It appears to be a left-leaning party at the present time. That doesn't altogether please me but neither would I be if it leaned the other way. I'm also unappy with its decision to bolster a Labour administration in Cardiff, believing it to have been a strategic error which leaves the party ill-placed to fight Labour in future elections. I think it will pay a heavy electoral price as its failure to dent Labour at the recent EU election illustrated so clearly, and at a time when Labour is on the ropes.
I'm disappointed that the SNP has opted to retain the Windsor connection after independence by having the English queen as queen of Scotland, but that's its choice. Scotland's connection with the monarchy is admittedly stronger in several ways, through the Stuarts, for example. No attempts were made to assimilate it into England or to impose a purely English prince either as has happened in Wales.
I think the Republic of Ireland has gone for the best option. An elected non-executive head of state. They have had two excellent, superb, female Presidents who have been a credit to the Irish people on the world stage.
I hope that we don't need to discuss the issue again. On everything else I thing we are agreed.
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daverodway is excellent in 33 and 34. No surprise then that none of the Brit nats make an attempt to respond. As usual, they either refuse, or more likely, are unable to answer his well made points.
Is no one else pleased that Tanni Grey-Thompson is to be honoured by the Gorsedd?!
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#49, when Sir Emyr Jones Parry, an honest man, who when interviewed stated
"I don't think the settlement itself, the detail of it, is understood by most people".
I realised the debate was won by those who would say, delay, so this particular thread would only be of further interest to those supporting a separatist agenda.
I noticed there are those amongst the separatist who have a spoiling agenda, who would be interested in a conversation with them?
The only nationalists hereabouts in this blog are the Plaid crew, Unionists read with amazement as Roadway asked, explain why the current LCO system is any good, or why Westminster was better. A very simple answer, it provides protection from the excesses of the extremists at the National Assembly, after all, its only devolution, we are joined a little more than just by the hip.
Your last point #49, if Tanni Grey-Thompson is pleased I am sure everyone will be pleased for her.
But I have gutters to clean in readiness for Autumn, a far more pleasant experience than being referred to as simian by the more ignorant of Betsan's contributors.
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#30 IMHO The reason people are debating the issues is because we are in agreement that the current system fails everyone albeit for very different reasons, moreover, is seems to be based on the concept of divide and rule. Unfortunately we sometimes walk into the trap and the issues get lost.
Based upon this, we should be asked how can things be improved and if that means more power to the people based upon open and accountable government then I would be in cautious agreement.
If it means more power to the politicians to make decisions based on secret reports and banning the public from complaining then the answer is definitely NO.
I want something different not more of the same corruption and abuse of power from all parties.
It is obvious that while Wales has voted for devolution it has also been blocked from going down the road to independence. The result is that we have an unnecessary third layer of government, with inferior public services and less chance of solving social injustice than those living in other parts of the UK.
As far as the All Wales Convention is concerned I am afraid that it has failed to come across as being impartial, and was a total waste of time money. If I wanted to discredit a NO vote who would I invite? And who ever did knew that too. Unfortunately it has also discredited the YES vote as being yet another stitch up.
To resolve this issue the people must be trusted to make the right decisions based upon the facts and told the whole truth. Looking at the mess over expenses who are they to tell us?
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#47 & #48 A United Republic?
With some notable exceptions, the unaccountable power of the English crown has always corrupted everything that got in its path or was associated with it.
I am not a republican by conviction its just that Constitutional Monarchy is no longer fit for purpose.
If you had a Monarchy in Wales then based upon the fact that 3,000 Welshmen signed up to fight on the side of an autocratic English King during the Civil Wars, it would only support the same currupt elite that still rules English and Welsh society.
Its time abolish crown immunity and make everyone accountable for their actions.
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Betsan you missed this
...the difference between democracy and tyranny is not that in a democracy bad things do not happen, but that in a democracy when they do happen people are held and brought to account, and that is what is happening under our judicial system. Tony Blair Hansard 19th January 2005
By this definition we do not live in a democracy, Tony Blair introduced laws that banned the public from a right of complaint and prevent our judicial system from having any jurisdiction.
He introduced a culture whereby state sponsored corruption was perfectly acceptable provided you can get away with it.
But now that MPs are being held to account for the common crime of fraud perhaps we can now include other public servants and institutions.
We need to bring an end to so called public servants flouting the rules and then hiding behind the law and crown immunity, issues which are made worse under the weaknesses of devolution.
Moreover, perhaps whistle-blowers can also be offered some protection from threats and a tirade of abuse.
If we the people demand more transparent and open government then maybe one day we will live in a true democracy!
Meanwhile what does it take to be heard, climb onto the roof of a Minsters house or cover them with green custard, climb Big Ben, camp out at the doors of the Senedd, or elect Assembly Members that bothered to answer complaints from their constituents?
Then and only then can we consider what powers the Assembly needs to function in the interests of the people of Wales, instead of a corrupt elite.
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#52 and #53 Neocromwellian wrote:
'If we the people demand more transparent and open government then maybe one day we will live in a true democracy!'
You're half way there. You want it to happen. But its like getting three numbers right in the lottery, that's the easy bit.
The only path to achieve it for the UK is through constitutional reform at the most elemental level.
The Tories have ruled it out, completely. Things will carry on more or less as they always have under Cameron. They've paid the money back, paid lip service to the problems, agreed to some tinkering with MPs expenses and that's all. We'll have at least a decade of Tory rule, and it will be just as bad as ever. Neither will the efficiency of government improve under them.
Gordon Brown has talked about constitutional reform but in a very unclear way and only when he has reached rock bottom in the popularity stakes. He claims to have been a reformer by instinct from the cradle, but his career and all his actions prove otherwise. Sheer hypocrisy.
(I suspect that were the LibDems to become one of the two main parties, ie, oust Labour or Tories, or become the governing party, their passion for constitutional and electoral reform would diminish overnight).
The truth is that its not in the interest of these parties to reform. They cannot change the electoral system, as it will remove any chance of either of them forming a majority ever again. Neither party has achieved anywhere near 50% of the popular vote in a general election in living memory, yet they have both governed with large or comfortable majorities.
More fundamental is the sovereignty of Parliament. Power lies at the top in the UK unlike any other western democracy. Effectively its an elective dictatorship. There has been excessive secrecy, complacency, arrogance, greed and corruption, as well as sheer bad or incompetent government as a result. Look at the recent history of the Home Office as one example as well as Blair's decision to go to war.
There is massive over-centralisation at Westminster and Whitehall, much more so than any other western country. Its unhealthy. We now live in a surveillance society as a result. There are few safeguards for our rights and liberties against arbitrary government and draconian legislation, such as detention without trial and the National Identity Register. THe Human Rights Act 1998 can be amended or repealed at a stroke with a majority of one in the Commons. There is a completely unelected second chamber, giving the Executive massive powers of patronage.
Parliament has little control over the Government (the Executive). The Commons is a weak and passive institution which fails to scrutinise legislation or executive actions adequately. Most bills are only cursorily scrutinised before becoming law because of the guillotine on debate and pressure from government whips. Many are enabling bills, which allow ministers to enact a torrent of secondary legislation without any scrutiny at all.
The Judiciary has no power over the content of legislation which might threaten our rights and liberties. The best the judges can do is interpret the law - the face of the statute, although in some cases they can look at the intention of Parliament when it was enacted, but only to a very limited extent. In the case of the Human Rights Act, they can only declare that an Act is incompatible with the HRA, but they have no powers to strike it down. Supreme Courts in other countries have that power to strike down unconstitutional legislation. Its an essential protection for their citizens, but entirely absent in the UK.
What will it take to achieve the necessary changes? (to remove the sovereignty of the crown in parliament, and place it constitutionally in the hands of the British people)
'..climb onto the roof of a Minsters house or cover them with green custard, climb Big Ben, camp out at the doors of the Senedd..'
If only. It would have happened long since if that was the case. I don't think its possible for it to happen in the UK. Nothing less than a social and political earthquake could bring it about. The expenses fiasco has been a minor tremor in comparison to what's needed. I think it would take riots in the streets and massive public demonstrations on a scale never before witnessed in Britain... greater even than what the Chartists achieved in the 1830s and 40s. They failed too.
It isn't going to happen. Hell will freeze over first.
I happen to be living in Wales and was born here. Wales can achieve a constitutional democracy along the lines you favour through the ballot box. That's why I support self-determination for my country.
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For all its faults, and it has many, the National Assembly for Wales and the Welsh Assembly Government is more open and less secretive than Westminster.
It has structural failings, yes. Personally I don't like the electoral system and would rather go for STV from 12 - 15 3 - 5 member constituencies where your vote is not wasted and you vote for the candidates that you want to win regardless of party. It gives a representative body that more closely matches the electorate's wishes.
One improvement with the GOWA 2006 is that it at least separates the executive from the legislature, though I wish they would just call it the Welsh Government, you don't have the UK Parliament Government - its confusing the legislature with the executive. That creates a distinction between the legislative and the executive function.
The Richard commission identified some weaknesses in the old set up and suggested that to enable effective scrutiny and to preserver party balance you would need another 20 AMs - this is not on offer, but True Wales keep saying that it is. Its no secret that I would like a larger body so it could do its work more effectively but that isn't on the agenda at the moment.
I also think we should be careful of some of the hyperbole on hear about the political class. Politicians aren't a class apart from the rest of us. They are (for the most part) members of political parties, political parties are citizens groups drawn from all sections of society. Certainly membership has gone down in the last few decades, but essentially they are made up of people like you and me and our neighbours. Most parties are built on the labour of their individual members, who put a lot of time and not an inconsiderable amount of their own money into supporting their party's objectives, without receiving a penny for their efforts in return.
We need to reconnect people to the political process, we need to grow the membership of political parties, and most of all we need to stop devaluing the political process by using extreme language.
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Lyn thomas - yet again dissing True Wales
Lets talk about openness, transparency and FACTS.
At a recent meeting down the bay, Dafydd Elis-Thomas took a former prominent Council Leader in to the debating chamber of the National Assembly and showed him the panel that would be removed to house another 20 AMs following the referendum for further powers. Mr Ellis-Thomas didn't say if but as soon as a referendum is won.
A favourite ploy of yours is to discredit anyone with opposing views to yourself whatever form that takes. The Labour party is hemorrhaging members because of people like yourself. The quicker you start listening to the people the better. Perhaps you already know that but the money is too good. Let's sell our soul and hold on to power at any cost!
Hold your head in shame great people like Nye Bevan would be broken hearted with what is happening to his party today.
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#56,
Only 0.0005 percent of the population of Wales attended the 23 public meetings organised by Sir Emyr Jones Parry, this is an average of 0.000023 percent of the population of Wales, some shared a curry, but one aspect was not shared with the people of Wales, it was not representative of the Electorate.
This year, next year, the next five years, will be so devastatingly bad due to the mismanagement by the current Prime Minister in Westminster, and the Labour-Plaid coalition in Wales, people will be fearful of leaving the certainty of what we have now, this gives the next government at Westminster a decade to turn things around economically, here in Wales there is plenty of time to demonstrate to the public the comedy being played out at the Assembly.
Nye Bevan might take heart that the NHS in 2009 is by far the best Health model in the world, there is no comparison, not everything is perfect but it is better than anything offered by the various politicos in Cardiff Bay, and although a Conservative I have much respect for his achievements, in comparison to the current batch of politically challenged buffoons he was a giant.
Who knows, with consideration for the people of Wales as a priority the Conservatives could work with the Labour Party, in a pragmatic coalition between Westminster and Cardiff.
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I repeat the referendum would not directly result in a change to the number of members of the National Assembly, I would like it to but it would not. The size of the National Assembly is fixed at the number of MPs Wales sends to Westminster + 50% for the regional lists. So this is another case of True Wales not telling the truth. It would require more legislation to amend the Government of Wales act to do so. This Government is not minded to do that and I suspect any incoming Cameron government would also be of like mind.
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#56, DC said recently .....
The information revolution meets the progressive Conservative political philosophy, sceptical about big state power; committed to social responsibility and non-state collective action.
The effects of this redistribution of power will be felt throughout our politics...
...with people in control of the things that matter to them...
...a country where the political system is open and trustworthy...
...and where power is redistributed from the political elite to the man and woman in the street.
Does anyone imagine for a moment that such policies will stop at Offa's dyke; Devolution is different from federalism in that the powers devolved may be temporary and ultimately reside in central government, thus the state remains, de jure, unitary. (wiki)
I'm not sure how the WAG will distribute power from Cardiff Bay to the people, not without a tantrum anyway, which one of the comedians would prefer DC not to visit Cardiff?
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I'm sure you will agree Lyn Thomas ........ its all about steps, more powers, more AMs less MPs, less influence in Westminster - bingo Independence.
Who are you and your fellow nationalists kidding when you say its not part of the same journey. You cannot treat this matter in isolation. True Wales message is factual, loud and clear .... SLIPPERY SLOPE to independence.
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The NATS clearly dont like the Queen of England (God less her) and her family,however we are where we are and before getting rid of HM who would the NATS want to "sell" WALES??. Who is this FAMILY that President Obama might relate to when he pops into Cardiff International rather than calling Heathrow/London. The NATS are all BONKERS as without being part of UK we'd be like CUBA without sunshine and dusky maidens rolling cigars on inside thighs. On the other hand Helen Mary Jones could attrat the "intelligent",but "overweight" to numerous conferences about matters no concern but other than themselves.I hereby announce that Queen Helen Mary is our MONARCH and god bless all who sale in her.!!
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Anyway - i reckon we lost it when both props went off....
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#61 Snouts
Firstly, I'm not a 'nationalist' any more than you are. I want self-determination for my country. Do you want the UK to have self-determination? If you do, then you, using your own terms, are a British or UK nationalist. I'm sure you wouldn't call yourself that. So why label those who want self-determination for Wales, 'nationalists'. (I suspect you support the Euro-sceptic Tories, or UKIP) which to my mind would make you an ultra-British nationalist. You yourself are a NAT it seems, please correct me if I'm wrong.
I can't speak for Plaid as they're not a republican party. I don't know what their stance is on the monarchy. You could write or email and ask them. I've made my position clear as a republican. I wouldn't have a king or a queen, whatever their nationality. I believe a democratically elected head of state is as capable, if not better, of representing his/her country on the world stage than an unelected monarch.
A president would have been chosen by a majority of the people for the qualities required for the functions he/she would be carrying out, whereas its a bit of a 'lucky dip' on intelligence, age, personality etc of a monarch. The present incumbent is in her 80s and could still be on the throne in another decade. How effectively would she be able to function as head of state then? (That's a rhetorical question, don't bother responding) There are lots of factors to consider.
As I see it, its not an emotional issue, but a matter of rationality. I don't want to restate the points I've made elsewhere on this blog.
Your use of language including insults weakens your argument. If you stick to the facts, you are immediately more credible.
(Cuba is a third world country because of US sanctions. The US has impoverished a number of countries in a similar way, including Iraq, before the invasion in 2003) Anyone who has ever visited Cuba will know how civilised, enlightened and welcoming the people are).
Statements such as, 'Wales will be desperately poor as a sovereign nation state' are simply bald assertions, without supporting evidence. They can be countered by the opposite assertion, 'Wales will be extremely prosperous when it is self governing'. Both statements are entirely pointless and circular. Its necessary to give reasons in support, otherwise its a waste of time. Its facile, purile even.
It is possible to learn, in a mature debate, and for viewpoints to change as a result. For that to happen, an element of respect is required for the opinions of others. In view of your comments at #61 its something you might consider taking on board.
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Nomorepowers, True Wales are not telling the truth. It would indeed need separate legislation from Westminster to expand the size of the Assembly, its not built into the Government of Wales Act on which we will be voting.
Tell me how automatically by voting yes the assembly will grow in size?
True Wales also talk about Welsh Stock Exchanges as being part of the conspiracy between Labour and Plaid to make Wales independent... would be interesting to know what you think of the old Birmingham Stock Exchange? Or the Liverpool one, or indeed the Manchester stock exchanges. Having a stock exchange isn't a sign that you are planning independence. Every major town used to have one.
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Message 64....
Liverpools Population ?
Birmingham's Poulation ?
Manchester Population ?
Wales Population 3 Million
The key words USED TO have one.
Lets talk about here and now not some kind of utopia you would like to live in. Despite the millions given to Wales in objective one money Wales is ashamedly still reliant on Public Sector Pay. £2 of £3 of GDP is public sector pay. With such a strong economic foundation who have you in mind to enter the Welsh Stock Market.
FTSE wins I'm afraid
On a different note wasn't it a brilliant day for British Sport, first the outstanding performance by the British Lions and then the magnificent British Speedway Grand Prix. Did you see those Union Jacks- just makes you proud to be British
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64,
It is the British & Irish Lions although I suspect that you still consider them 'part of us'. Also, there were indeed a lot of union jacks around Cardiff today for the British Speedway Grand Prix but they were waved almost exclusively by English supporters. There also many Enlish flags and not a single Welsh flag to be seen, even though the street sellers were trying to flog them. I am sure that Cardiff was grateful to gain from such an English event.
The idea of calling for 'Welsh' outside Wales to vote in a referendum is ridiculous. How on earth do you define such individuals and why should they have a say if they have chosen no longer to live here? TGJ has created an interesting debate by raising this issue, but I cannot believe that anyone will take him seriously.
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#63 Self Determination
Is something I respect, I want more open government for the people by the people, but can see no sign of the devolutionists introducing any of that so they can hang on to unaccountable power.
To say the Assembly is less secretive is like saying there are procedures in place! You try using them and you find they get you nowhere except a fob off.
You cannot introduce devolution without addressing the self determination issue head on and you cannot have self determination unless you have open government.
There is no doubt that this issues are being stifled, so what we have is fudge and stealth on both sides of the devolution argument as the result is a more secretive and repressive government by stealth.
What is also obvious is that the opinions of the ordinary person in the street or in this blog are being hijacked for political advantage.
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#67, you are pussy footing, self determination in the context of Plaid, and chums, is an Independent Wales.
What has and is happening at the Assembly is the construction of a launch pad for Independence, the concept of a Nation State, and all the while the three Unionist parties fearful of loosing political influence, support the inadequacy's found in the losers of society, those who see a greener grass the other side of the separatists dream, nightmare.
There is only one place for Plaid and chums, an early relegation to the pages of historic failures, alongside communism to whom they are very closely aligned.
There is only one action for the Union, the creation of a more equitable society with well paid opportunities following an excellent education, then Plaid and the lunatic fringe will dissipate as does an early morning mist, or could that be a fog, there would be little to attach their historic despair, not even language, it being incorporated in education.
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63 Bryn. Thanks for advice but tried to make my comments in lighthearted manner but clearly failed. HMJ seems to be BBC Wales most favoured politician (PC of course) and is very earnest/serious and just about the last person on this earth that I want looking after my interests. With regard to the last meeting of AWC in Cardiff her response to Lord Trisant GJ about the "slippery slope" to independance just about sums up the position of PC,which is that their clear and stated aim of INDEPENDANCE is not to be discussed but silently worked at piece by piece.If they did away with that nonsense and said that their aim was to work with welsh people to fundamentally change the nature of welsh society to allow it to survive on its own feet then it might be worth supporting.There is one simple question that I would put to PC and its supporters and is " In the event of wales becoming independant and having control over economic policy what would the unit of currency be a)Pound Sterling, b)Euro, c)Cymro coins. There are many other economic issues such as a)Can you tell me any major company that provides its services on welsh only basis and the answer is NO,as our geography dictates that our markets are integrated in english markets because of economy of scale. The provision of NHS is Wales with out regard to England is a sheer nonsense (See Brain Surgery issue)and that why no more powers until current services are improved to level of input of public money (inclusing subsidies from english/german taxpayers.)
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# 69 I am not pussy footing
IF self determination in the context of Plaid, and chums, is an Independent Wales.
Then lets have it out in the open instead of being given a load of rubbish and pulling the wool over our eyes about increased powers without telling people where its going to lead.
Lets also know that they are not offering anything different, apart from them taking over!
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As for stock exchanges, there are suggestions that Manchester etc should restore their exchanges, that there is a benefit to local trading rather than just trading on the London Stock Exchange, so I don't think you have proven that examining the issue = conspiring for independence.
As for Plaid's aims, it is clear, they aim for an independent Wales, that is a long term goal. The referendum is not on that, but about brining into effect a section of an existing Act that provides for devolving primary legislative power over 20 subject areas. No other question on the ballot paper.
No stealth independence, that would only come if the people of Wales vote specifically for it.
True Wales take a number of policy initiatives that have been floated and claim them as proof of a conspiracy involving Labour and Plaid to make Wales independent, where is the evidence? Each of the specific matters are not in themselves things exclusive to independent states. The Gorsedd awards membership to people who have made a contribution to Welsh life, that is an honours system, and Wales is not independent, Butetown has an annual award of honours in recognition of contributions to the community, it is not independent. Stock Exchanges are not exclusive to nation states, there exist trans and sub national ones nothing mysterious about it.
As it is true Wales that is claiming this conspiracy it is up to them to prove it, instead they take a series of innocuous ideas floated by the Welsh Government and draw conclusions and then stated those conclusions as fact, which it isn't.
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#69
Your attempts at humour didn't go unnoticed at #61.
It isn't really helpful to label individuals, for instance as 'nationalists' or 'unionists' or to equate 'self-determination' with 'independence'. ('IndependEnce' - correct spelling will improve YOUR credibility).
As the recent financial crisis has showed all of us, no country is truly 'independent', even though it may be a self-governing nation state. Its really been true for over a century, particularly in Europe, where allegiances have been vital. Its even truer today, with multi-national companies whose assets and incomes dwarf those of quite large states, and with enormous political and economic groupings like the EU.
The UK is not independent. It is dependent. All states are. It has volutarily ceeded some, quite a lot, of its sovereignty to the European Union. That has brought us a lot of benefits, but at a price. Some, as in UKIP baulk at that price. They want an 'independent' UK. Personally, I think its a daft and silly party that is backward-looking, consisting mainly of a bunch of little-Englanders who think its feasible to turn the clock back. Their policy platform is simple and easy to understand - its uncomplicated - 'Vote NO to Europe', because Europe is bad, because it isn't British. I think many people have voted for them because they haven't taken the trouble to look at the issues in any depth.
Those who seek self-determination for Wales do not seek that kind of 'independence'. Quite the contrary, we are happy to ceed sovereignty to the EU together with our European neighbours and partners, including the other nations of these islands.
That is not to say I'm happy with the EU as it stands. It needs some serious and fundamental reform to make it a democratic union accountable to the people, rather than to heads of governments.
True Wales uses phrases like, 'the slippery slope to independence' as an unwarranted slur. Devolution of power from the centre does not lead to self-determination. The two are quite different. Devolution has been taking place in an over-centralised UK, where all the power lay in London, simply as a reaction to the growth of national sentiment, particularly in Scotland. Westminster feared Scottish secession from the Union, and devolution was seen as a method of forestalling that. It hasn't been successful in so-doing. Instead, the Union is being seen in Scotland as an increasingly bad thing for the Scottish people. The responsibility for people in Scotland being unhappy with the Union, lies with the Union, not with the Scottish people. It has failed to address the issues which matter to them.
Personally, I feel the same as far as Wales is concerned. If the UK became a better country by becoming a true democracy where my vote counted. If Wales became more prosperous because of investment etc, and its Language and culture were taken seriously by the government, and the powers that be, I might be persuaded to favour remaining in the UK.
As it is, I don't think those things are ever going to happen, so I believe that a self-governing Wales, not an 'independent' Wales is the best option.
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This is core, there difference between independence as promoted by Plaid and Independence as promoted by UKIP. One sees Wales taking its place in the community of nations, the other sees the UK isolated from its neighbours. They talk of free trade, the reality is that the regulation of trade is no longer in the hands of National Governments but is regulated by supranational organisations, such as the EU. Independence for Wales is not isolation but being part of the wider world. The UK has failed to provide wales with a secure economic future, the EU seems far more interested in evening out inequalities than the UK is. As the world coalesces into trading blocks and as more and more things are decided on a global scale the UK becomes a bit of an anachronism. There are bonds of affection and kinship that will not be broken by the political independence of the various units that make it up, that will not change, but the UK has had its time.
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72 Bryn. I think I'm getting somewhere with PC in that "Independence" is out because no one can be independent any more,however "Self Determination" is OK for the NATS. Does this mean if we were "self determinate" in Wales we would remove ourselves from the UK and participation in combined rule in Westminster and from the sovereignty of Monarch as head of state?. If that is the position then we would be cutting of our selves from our nearest neighbours i.e. England,and all other parts of UK. For some reason we in that case did not wish to "pool" our sovreignty on UK basis,but clearly we would be happy to "pool" our sovreignty with fellow european states i.e. France/Germany etc. Before I can consider joining the Self Determination Party can you inform me why you think I can get a better deal out of German/French/Spanish rather than of out of the English?. At the present time the english taxpayers current subsidise the welsh people by approximately £9 Billion pound and hence current standard of living,and also provide world wide diplomatic cover etc. The English are also the only net contributors from UK to Europe who then subsidise us with Objective One etc. (more money to waste) on white elephants. The english also give us in parliament over representation of MP'S along with scotland to counterbalance the pure size of england compared to other countries in UK. On an emotional/historical basis I am sorry but I feel a lot more fond of the english than germans/french,particularly as my grandson was born there and hopefully will represent the country of his birth in some sporting context. Am I right in thinking that it is french farmers who were BURNING ALIVE sheep from wales as part of their normal diplomacy whereas english farmerss allow free trade. In conclusion can you PROVE that we'll get a better deal from the Germans/French (who we save from themselves 50 years ago) rather than my english friends who live 50 miles away.
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#74
I've explained my reasons for wanting self-determination. I can't speak for others who have the same or similar aspirations.
I think issues such as the Barnett Formula are part of the problem in the UK. There's nothing sacrosant about that formula which Joel Barnett came up with all those years ago, and which was only meant as a temporary measure. Again, its purpose was to dissipate perceived national sentiment in Wales and Scotland.
The ownership and exploitation of Wales' resources, its water, wind, coal reserves, minerals, landscape and tourism etc are largely under the control of Westminster. Similarly fiscal and economic policies including taxation come under the ambit of the Treasury and the Bank of England. Its my opinion that these are constraints on the development of Wales' infrastructure and economy. Were those powers transferred to Cardiff, then there would be opportunities to develop in ways hitherto untried.
Wales' economy would be able to grow, and attract even more inward investment.
It was done successfully in Ireland, together with investment from the EU. The RoI has much more leverage within the EU as its government is a full member and is represented on the Council of Ministers. It also has signifcantly more MEPs than Wales' measly four. (Wales would be entitled to 12 if a full member country).
I believe that the inbalance between what the Assembly receives from the Treasury through the BF and Wales' current gdp can be more than compensated for, much more so. Its the only possibility for Wales to become a prosperous country. It is now, and has been for decades, one of the very poorest regions within the EU.
Wales has more natural advantages, including geography, than the RoI, yet the difference in prosperity between the two is marked. What prevents Wales from developing is that it is part of the UK. The UK is the problem as far as Wales is concerned. Moreover I believe that the RoI will pull out of the present economic crisis and recession much faster than Wales simply because it controls its own economic and fiscal policies. A benefit culture has developed here, and that is unhealthy. It has to be addressed.
As for historical ties with England, Scotland, and Ireland, they will remain, and would I believe be strengthened. Wales would gain a new vitality and its people greater pride and confidence in themselves. We will always have close ties with our neighbours, linguistic, social and cultural. I have close family ties in England, from the sound of it, closer even than yours. There would be more respect for each other than there is now. Much less bickering, as this and other BBC blogs sadly illustrate. My desire for self-determination is not 'anti-' anything or anyone, but 'pro-' Wales and its people.
It was interesting to hear David Melding's (Conservative AM South Wales Central) ideas on a federal UK on The Politics Show (Wales) today. There is an increasing call for change and a greater consensus than ever before that things can't go on as they are. The main obstacle is a handful of Labour MPs from Wales who have dug their heels in, simply to protect their own seats. Pure self-interest. Even the Tories in Wales are more progressive than them.
I hope that Labour Councillor Dave Rees (of True Wales?) who featured on an item in the programme heard and pondered Melding's ideas. It might give him some food for thought.
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I have a strong sense of the absurdity of the human condition and reading this thread convinces me theres a lot going for the notion.
Anyone of a different culture (a Frenchman or woman for example) reading this thread would quickly come to the conclusion that those taking part are of an Anglo Saxon frame of mind (language and culture are uniform).
Though I'm a convinced atheist and believe strongly in the scientific method I got an equally strong sensation at the end of the thread that you are all reincarnated medieval monks arguing how many angels can dance on a pin head.
There are more parts of our culture that unite us than those insignificant parts that shysters politicians use for their own narrow minded purposes to try to separate us. Think British!!! You know it makes sense.
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#76
We are all aware that you have a sense of superiority, looking down on us mere mortals in our humble human condition here in Wales. Don't be so patronising.
It was the Bard of Avon, who penned the words,
'There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.' (Hamlet, Act 1 Scene 5)
'Avon', by the way, is derived from Welsh, 'afon' - river.
'Malvern' - 'Moel Fryn' (bare hill)
'Dover' - 'dwfwr' (water)
We Welsh ARE the British. We were here before the Angles, Saxons and the Jutes arrived. We ended up where we are now because we were weaker. Its time we stood up for ourselves, Fitzy.
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#72, your penultimate paragraph .....
Personally, I feel the same as far as Wales ....... etc.
Why have you not written such as this before ....... ?
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#76 We Welsh ARE the British etc, Pure blooded are you? Advocating a war of Lebensraum and ethnic cleansing against the rest? You and whose army? Or is it all just hot air?
There is a lot of nonsense on this blog. And I don't believe the opinion polls: most people I know hate devolution and wish it could be reversed. I actually voted in favour, much to the annoyance of my friends who were native to Pembrokeshire. But the margin in favour was tiny and disputed - why can't we be given the option to judge its performance and shut the Assembly down, or not?
Seriously, there is a huge divide between the activist on this blog, and the person in the street.
PS Fortunately, there is very little pure blood in the UK, but it isn't a good idea: Look at this BBC report:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_west/6441707.stm
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"But the margin in favour was tiny and disputed"
Tiny, yes - but disputed? By whom?
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Excellent post, Sasha. Thank goodness that we now have a cross-party, cross-sector counter-movement to fight nationalism and keep Wales in the UK:
www.truewales.org.uk
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#79 sashaclarkson wrote:
'Pure blooded are you?' (not even 'hot-blooded', I regret, too old for that)
It was written somewhat tongue-in-cheek, cariad. Please don't take offence. I agree that there is an awful lot of nonsense written here. Don't bother to read too much of it.
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#78 TheStonemason
I have expressed those sentiments before, I can't quite remember where on this blog.
However, I've long given up on the possibility of reform in the UK.
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#77
Who's patronising? With regard to the "British" in my post, I was just stating an observable opinion. If you can empathize with Iron Age people who lived two thousand years ago you have powers way beyond my comprehension.
Come on now, to say that you Welsh "ARE the British" is stretching plausibility a bit far. Over two thousand years the gene pool has become so mixed in Britain as a whole, that nature might stand up and say to all the world, the only plausible definition of nationality is British - and that is British in a modern political sense.
Right, so you know the name of things in two languages; but what does that tell you of the chemical composition of water. What would knowing the name of a sparrow in two languages tell you about the biological nature of a sparrow?
It's not so much that you "need to stand up for yourselves" it's about time you Welsh realized that you are doing very nicely from the Barnett Formula and would be foolish in the extreme to throw it away for the pipe dream of separation from England.
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#79
why can't we be given the option to judge its performance and shut the Assembly down, or not?
Seriously, there is a huge divide between the activist on this blog, and the person in the street.
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sorry hit the wrong button!
#79
why can't we be given the option to judge its performance and shut the Assembly down, or not?
Seriously, there is a huge divide between the activist on this blog, and the person in the street.
I totally agree with this as I do with those who want self determination, if you believe in democracy you must let the people decide and not manipulate them into making the decision you want.
We should be asked such questions as do you want to abolish the Assembly? do you want an independent or self governing Wales? do you want to stay in the UK or a United Republic?
There are some good points being made but they lose me when they obviously start campaigning for political parties.
I want reform of the system, open government and better services,
Am I going to get that with more powers to the political class?
The answer is NO so my vote is NO
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#84 - said:
"you Welsh realized that you are doing very nicely from the Barnett Formula"
- we have been doing so nicely out of it that we have qualified for Objective One funding on two occasions. That tells me that the UK government has not done a responsible job in Wales over the last few generations (more really but the last few are enough) - we have become poorer, the Barnett Formula does not address need it addresses numbers, it is biased towards England who have benefited from it enormously, time for it to go. Time for a fair and proper redistribution of wealth in the UK - or let us raise and use our own money.
PS: read some of the many recent books about genes and diversity in the British Isles - it would educate you on the notion of 'Britishness'.
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