Time to panic?
Remember this?
I hope those students who sat furiously taking notes in Cross Keys three months ago went on to use some of what they heard in their essays. If they did, they may well get a retrospective A+. At last night's count Labour supporters and officials found themselves cheering Labour wins in Blaenau Gwent and a hair's breadth victory in Cardiff West, the First Minister's patch. Conservatives mouths fell open when I suggested we'd heard they'd won Alun and Deeside.
The second Conservative candidate, Evan Price, started to consider the possiblity that he might get elected. A Brussels job on the line, how was he keeping his cool? "By remembering how I feel when I'm in front of a nasty judge" he said. "I think to myself that he can't kill me and can't get me pregnant, then I get on with it."
He came within a thousand votes of finding himself with job, if not with child.
Plaid started the night predicting Labour could well come in third. As the results came in, the realisation dawned quickly that they'd done well in the seats they're targetting at the General Election but elsewhere? Had they paid the price for being Labour's partners in Cardiff Bay? Or had they just not fought hard enough outside those target seats? When it had got cold enough to put our coats on, Plaid had long since realised the blue line was the one that told the story last night.
The Conservatives took Wrexham, Gower. "Gordon Brown - the Prime Minister who lost Wales!" muttered one of their number with a smile that said this was much, much better than they'd seen coming. Even with Ukip notching up enough votes to take the fourth seat, the Tories had enough to beat Labour.
It was a bad night for the Liberal Democrats. Is Lembit-land still Lembit-land when his party come third to the Tories and Ukip? If it isn't, with what exactly does Kirsty Williams respond?
Let's be clear. We've had an election a year in Wales and Labour has done increasingly badly at each one. Their share of the vote has fallen, their performance has been breaking records in a bad way for some time. But somehow, they haven't been seen to pay the price electorally. This election is the one where that has happened.
Last year Rhodri Morgan didn't pretend the local election results in Wales were anythign other than awful but it was, he said "important not to panic". Today the Labour party in Wales does seem to be panicking.
Fingers were being pointed at Transport House long before the votes were even counted. Now people are speaking plainly. Among them, outgoing MEP Eluned Morgan.
"There was a problem with our message. The message wasn't clear. I was part of our campaign and I can't tell you clearly what our message was ... This was a kicking and we have to rebuild the party in Wales. That won't be easy. There's a myth about a Welsh Labour machine. There isn't much of a machine and at the moment lack of money really worries us as a party".
I arrived in Millbank a few hours ago to be greeted by a taxi driver who was better at recognising languages than Tony Benn. He wondered "what the hell happened in your neck of the woods love?" before admitting (and that's what if felt like) that he'd voted Ukip for the first time ever at these elections.
Bumping into John Curtice, Professor of Politics at Strathclyde University I heard him telling Labour activists that there wasn't "a crumb of comfort for them" in last night's results.
Let me try: this was disastrous for Welsh Labour and yes, the Conservatives did very, very well. In fact add another 'very' in there. So if there's any comfort, it must lie in the first half of the sentence. This still looks more like a stunning Labour loss than a huge Conservative victory but then that's only a comfort if you can do something about it - and do it fast.
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~42~RS~)
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This was a European election, so many felt quite relaxed about voting for the political equivalents of the Flat Earth Society.
That coupled with the abysmal turn-out makes it foolish to extrapolate anything from this result other than the certainty that Labour will heavily lose the next Westminster election and struggle to remain the largest party in the Assembly in 2011.
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Betsan,...
Not being a party member, of any party let me make it clear, but with a leaning to old Labour, I have to smile to myself, when listening to all the comments from the 'new kids' on the block.
There was the UKIP bod crowing like fury of how his party had done so very well, virtual silence from the Lib Dems, apart from a repeat of Clegg doing his bash Labour comments, more or less word for word that went into Hansard a week ago, dead silence from the dead Plaid, the Tories hardly to be heard above the statisticals coming from the pundits, and a severe concentration of "how well they did" from certain quarters in the BBC, towards the BNP.
Usually qualified I must admit, re the fact the election was held in the same time period as the recent commemorations over in France.
But whichever way the results are looked at, they cannot readily be described as representative of the electorate, when only so few bothered to go and vote.
Nor can they be relied on, when comments from members of the public come out as....
"People are angry and voted accordingly"
"I always vote Labour, but this time I wanted them to get shock"
"I voted for the UKIP, as it seemed the only alternative to voting for either of the Tory or Labour, I agree with some of the BNP, but would never vote for them on principle"
" What? vote for any of this lot, you must be kidding"
" I voted for the BNP because they are right, all these immigrants coming and taking our jobs" (That one from a woman, at least 70 years old. As though she has anything to worry about in the jobs matter)
The comments were in the main nothing, if not a display of simple rage, which, had the newspapers not stoked it all up, would hardly have come to the fore.
The average Brit today complains about how the politicians are a load of crap, but they will not get to the polling booths to cast their votes. Rather hypocritical of the electorate in my book.
I think it about time for compulsory voting, or at least voting to a percentage turnout, ie minimum 75%, or the election is voided.
My verdict on the present state of the economy, considering none actually came out and presented any policy that would give the impression they were able to tackle those matters, would be for the major parties to put aside their sniping and attempting to gain a moral high point, instead, agree for the next year or so, to actually co- operate. Get things economically and morally stable, then show the electorate, revised new policies, that the electorate can relate once things are settled down,.
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Tories didn't come within a thousand votes of a second seat - they would have needed an extra 29,977 votes to be over double the UKIP vote..
and I'm going to get a life one of these days....
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Eluned Morgan said
I was part of our campaign and I can't tell you clearly what our message was ... This was a kicking and we have to rebuild the party in Wales. That won't be easy.
Peter Hain,Welsh Secretary, now Wayne David, his Minister. More of the same there then, some rebuilding.
I have just heard Wayne David on Good Evening Wales, what a creepy sychophant.
No Eluned it won't be easy,
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"what the hell happened in your neck of the woods love?"
Its a matter of what did not happen and it was that people did not vote Labour.
But why should we,traditional Labour voters have been treated to years of non stop spin doctoring and the imposition of policies that must have been designed to deliberately break up the party.
Our views and concerns have been ignored, you have done the dirty on us too many times.
It used to be that Labour was about policies that supported the ordinary working person. Now its all about status, personality, appearances and kissing the a... of the establishment, only to find you dont belong.
There are still many social issues that need to be addressed in particular reform of higher education to combat the unacceptable 75% university drop out rate for people from less well off families.
There is no need to panic, I think traditional Labour priciples and values will rise from the ashes like the phoenix, but in order to do that you have to burn it down and destroy it in the first place!
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Yes. I'm afraid it was another sad day for Wales and the Scots showed us the way again by voting for the party that will truly represent their country without having to bow to their masters in Whitehall.
Another opportunity missed to be brave and take control of our own destiny.
So sad, So sad!!!!
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"He came within a thousand votes of finding himself with job"
Perhaps you can explain the arithmetic behind this, Betsan? If there'd been five seats, they'd have been a thousand away from that seat, with the competition being between the 1st LibDem and the 2nd Tory. Which even by Euro election standards must rate as a condemnation of the LD result if they're struggling to equal half the Tory total.
"It was a bad night for the Liberal Democrats. Is Lembit-land still Lembit-land when his party come third to the Tories and Ukip? If it isn't, with what exactly does Kirsty Williams respond?" You'd have thought having a nice shiny new leader would have been worth a couple of % - it usually is for most parties and Kirsty's been around the top of Welsh politics for long enough not to have an issue establishing her name. Do the powys seats get interesting (even more than usual) with a resurgent Tory party?
How did the Tory performance compare with their high tide mark in Thatchers years, the election after the Falklands? Were their seats 'won' on Sunday that they didn't win that year?
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Traffic is light on the roads tonight. No mapexx, stonemason and the like, can't twist this one into a Welsh language rant can you.
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Alfspace1986,
Mapexx was indeed here and quick off the mark (see 2) but got gagged!
Hmm, I wonder what he said?
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alfsplace1986 at #8, Bob7291 at #9,
You are both off topic, if I might say a typical response of losers.
Back on topic .....
The Conservatives gave Labour and Plaid, and their undemocratic alliance, a good beating in the polls, done and dusted, nothing more to be said .....
..... except, how long before Plaid get dumped by Labour, as Labour got dumped by the electorate? There is only defeat for Labour with the separatists hanging on their coat tails.
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Betsan said:
"This still looks more like a stunning Labour loss than a huge Conservative victory ..."
QFE, its nothing more then this.
@ 10. TheStonemason "how long before Plaid get dumped by Labour"
Actually I wonder if its not the other way around? I don't think that Morgan will want to lose the only thing he has going for them at the moment, that is a stable government in Wales. For good or bad, that image is why many Labour members are begging for him to stay on, and may have blunted worse results at the polls.
But what will Plaid do sensing blood in the water?
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All I can say is that there was something in the results for everyone - except the BNP in Wales, who remain healthily low in the polls.
No one can take away a stunningly good result from the Tories - good luck to them and their new MEP, who seems switched on. Now that the Kinnock Sisters have stepped aside, we seem to have at least 3 MEPs who can work together to promote Welsh interests in the EU. That's better than nothing. I just hope that Mr Bufton doesn't toe the UKIP line of not taking part in voting. Wales could do with 4 efficient MEPs working together instead of 3.
I think that the result was good for Welsh democracy. It was a disappointment to see Pladi staying in 3rd, but the wafer thin gap between 1,2 & 3 softens that a bit.
I just note that a Plaid/Green alliance would have taken the 1st spot quite easily and been pretty close to getting the 4th seat. Imagine what that would have meant for the image of Wales? I hope Green Party members in Wales will think that one over.
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Of course Plaid and the Greens sit in the same group in Europe.
If I remember correctly the previous Plaid/Green pact was undone by sections of the Green Party.
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messages 12 and 13...
The BNP did not do well,... so?
However, did I not come across information, recently, that Plaid were nuzzling up to far right wingers across Europe?
Take away the extremist BNP's views on immigration and holocaust denial, and what's left is certainly not 'Left' in the political sense, even though Plaid claims a leftist agenda.
Anyone for BNP, therefore?
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Re 14
m ap exx,
Absolute nonsense - you mean the Tories who are snuggling up with some shady characters from Denmark, the Czech Republic and Poland. Throwing unsubstantiated dirt on this blog won't work ...
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message 14...
Before I complain that your message is, once again, tracking towards being 'off topic', may I ask you to prove, with FACTS, that my comments were 'absolute nonsense'.
Personally, I couldn't care less that a piddling little no value political party full of has been's, or more truthfully 'never will be's' despite being all 'wannabee's', may or may not cutch up to whatever faction in the EU parliament.
Nor if any other party, major or minor, do so.
But, as usual, you stick your oar into the response to someone else's discussion, without adding anything constructive.
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Re 16
I had thought these discussions were open to all - unless you know better of course.
With respect, it was you who made unsubstantiated (and inaccurate) claims.
And again, with respect, if you believe my response to your comment is off-topic, then what does that say about your original message?!
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Actually Mapexx you are the one who made the accusation, provide some facts, proof by assertion does not count.
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m,essage 18...
Try the EU Parliamwent web site for political affiliations.
There you will find just who Plaid is in allaince with, besides the 'Greens'
Some of which are rather to the right of Hitler.
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Re 19
Such as??!!
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Re 20
The title of this thread is Time to Panic - it seems that some already are if my no.20 has been referred to the mods!
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re 19
Answer the question mappex...which allies of Plaid are to the right of Hitler?
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message 22....
I do not do research for lazy fools, I have given you the means to find out for yourself.
I did it, and found what I stated, if you are so keen to undo my statement, go to the EU parliament web site, and discover for yourself which party affilliations Plaid have made.
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Thats a "don't know " then mappex
I thought the motto of the BBC was " Nation shall speak peace unto Nation", not "Mappex shall write nonsense unto the Nation...or region as he would no doubt inist!!!
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Sorry Mapexx you made the charge, its up to you to substantiate it, you haven't.
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message 25....
Just a few that Plaid are affilliated to...
.....democratic Party of German-speaking Belgians, the conservative Bavaria Party, the centre-right Liga Veneta Repubblica and the far right South Tyrolean.....
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OK now demonstrate how those are more right wing than Hitler, policies and attitudes please.
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message 27....
I am not here to educate you, you want to know, look it up for yourself.
And don't try the old 'no answers then' because I have given you all I am prepared to give, otherwise the off topic proviso will come into play. End of.
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OK well then you have failed to prove your case. The European Free Alliance is basically a grouping of parties that either represent cultural or national minorities or seek autonomy or independence within the European Union for their nation. Its overwhelmingly left wing in membership, but does include some Christian Democratic Parties and some that are right wing. All members have to be non racist. Hitler was racist and planned and executed genocide. None of the parties in the European Free Alliance match that description.
You make a lazy slur, then fail to back it up. I could say the Labour Party is in alliance with a party that is far to the left of Pol Pot, and when pressed could say the Cooperative Party. It would be nonsense of course but its at the level that you are debating here. For the record I don't believe that the Cooperative Party is to the left of Pol Pot and that its an excellent organisation only hindered by its association with the Labour Party... personally I think it would be more at home with Plaid Cymru, but that is just me.
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Now all that nonsense has been sorted, perhaps we can return to some intelligent conversation.
Just a few points. I'm not sure Labour are in a panic, they seem to be far too out of touch with things at the moment to even do that. But they still have time.
As for Plaid, and as a Plaid supporter, the result of this overwhelmingly British election really was quite good actually. Certainly not spectacular, but I think all those wild predictions weren't particularly intelligent or wise. Plaid's showing in target seats - even Westminster ones - was very promising. Llanelli will be one to watch, certainly. I'm pretty sure that Ynys Môn and Ceredigion will be back in the fold before long.
The Tories? Interesting. In the cool light of day, I don't really think their result was much to brag about. They certainly aren't gaining the sort of percentage points that they should, or indeed that they need, to gain a comfortable majority at Westminster. And let's face it, Cameron hasn't been tested yet. Up to now it's been style over substance - and it has been a very easy ride. He now has to explain how much his spending cuts will be, and who will suffer most - everyone will suffer to varying degrees of course. Well, toffs excluded, no doubt.
The Lib Dems seem pretty irrelevant in Wales, and their results were shocking.
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message 29...
But you argue on a false premise.
Unlike Plaid Cymru, Labour has not allied itself to Pol Pot, nor has the Cooperative movement, which is a parallel movement to Labour, with virtually the same aims and principles, except for it being part and parcel of a business enterprise, which Labour is not.
As for joining with Plaid, you musty have wool between your ears.
The Cooperative Party has little in common with Plaid, which is a declared Nationalist organisation, with a not too clean history.
The promotion of a policy is one thing, but to set out to attempt to convert the whole of Wales to a 'bilingual' nation, of which it is neither, is little short of national socialism, far to the right of it's declared principles. It is attempting to swing the population of Wales, or I should say the non Cymraeg sector, around 70 to 80% of the total behind a policy regime, that for the last century and half has been rejected by that majority.
All those Free Alliance parties across Europe have one thing in common, they wish to create little language based enclaves wherever they are situated. ~
To hell with the desires or needs of the majorities in their regions, just as long as they get to a level of power, thereby effectively disturbing and casting aside the political stability that the EU was set up to counter.
They are all reactionary, and whether they claim they are extreme left or the opposite, they all subscribe to the same destructive agenda.
By naming themselves as being socialist, they fool only themselves, those with decades of experincee in the field of political 'niceties' recognise only too well the falsity of such claims.
They are ALL elitist, and all have nationalism as their founding base.
They use their language menu as a club to browbeat and deride, as a weapon to force non compliants to fall in line.
You can make out that you feel this is a good thing, I, having lived through the consequences of such agendas, feel my case is sound, yours, as well as your arguments, flawed.
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Sorry you have lost it entirely, and failed to justify your claims that the parties are to the right of Hitler. We will end it there I think, little point in rehashing it other that to say you make extraordinary claims and then spectacularly fail to prove it and rant about imaginary abuses, while at the same time deriding minority groups - now that sounds familiar.
One point you might like to clarify, when did Plaid Cymru ally its self to Pol Pot, I presume that was a slip and not a serious charge?
As for Labour, yes I think they should panic. They lost a whopping part of their vote, mainly to stay at home voters, but partly to a host of smaller parties, some of which are anti democracy or real extremists (The Christian Party are rather fundermentalist under their wooly exterior). I think they will be doing some very very careful number crunching.
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Re 31..So, does that make them "to the right of Hitler?", er....no....Don't write unsubstantiated nonsense Mappex
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Mesage 32...
Im think new specs are called for or is your senility getting the better of you.
I never brought Pol Pot into this debate you did.
Quote from message 29...
...." I could say the Labour Party is in alliance with a party that is far to the left of Pol Pot,...."
But having re read what I wrote, I now realise I left out a few words, it should have read 'Unlike Plaid Cymru, aligning with certain European parties'........cont.
I would have thought you could have sussed that, but ever the nit picker, along with FI Fi, so I should not expect too much.
But I note you deliberately forgot to take up the main point anyway.
..cont...Labour has not allied itself to Pol Pot, nor has the Cooperative movement, which is a parallel movement to Labour, with virtually the same aims and principles, except for it being part and parcel of a business enterprise, which Labour is not".
You people read what you want to read, but at the end of it all, you simply want to be ever so clever with your sniping.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
You are saying that Plaid is allied to the BNP? You really are scraping the bottom of the barrel, likewise fascist parties in Austria etc, and trying to make links with ETA, you really have blown it. Prove your assertions or withdraw, if you don't withdraw I will ask the moderators to remove your offensive posts as you are lying and libeling all Plaid members.
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Re 36
Could I plesae ask how this message is on-topic? So why is it allowed?
When it goes off on one about nazis and fascists with absolutely no evidence, again why is it allowed?
When 'someone' reported my innocent no.34 to the mods. when his wild messages are left alone, certainly by me, is he unnable to see the different approach here?
One of the fascist's favourite tools has always been censorship ...
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Re 38
There is only one 'n' in unable of course ...
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FiDafydd, your #38 where you wrote .....
One of the fascist's favourite tools has always been censorship ...
Not quite correct old chum, censorship was only part of the "suppression of opposition" methods.
..... having said that, the separatist Nationalists on this blog have worked very hard trying to silence mapexx in an attempt to suppress opposition, and failed I might add, democracy in action!
On my desk calender today was an excellent quote the WAG and AM's might like to consider .....
"Do not let what you cannot do
............. interfere with what you can do."
..... chasing extra powers when the existing haven't been used.
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This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Adrian Masters of Dragon's Eye drove from South to North in friendly Conservative constituencies, his flag with a blue dragon certainly concentrates the mind, whilst Betsan was also looking especially good in blue.
It was a shame that the Conservative AM for Cardiff North, didn't do better in interview by quoting DC, it could have been along the lines of .....
But in Britain today a growing culture of rule-following, box-ticking and central prescription robs people of the chance to use their judgement or to take responsibility for making the right decisions.
And an increasingly Orwellian surveillance state - symbolised by the simultaneously ineffective and intrusive ID cards scheme - reminds people that the powers-that-be don't really trust them.
So this compounds the rage that we feel.
The shape of things to come, and there's lots more the electorate will appreciate, a libertarian view I feel.
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Yep Betsan blue suits you :)
Lets hope the Tory Manifesto clarifies the Referendum question, hopefully fulfilling the promise given in the 1997 referendum.
People now seem to recognise the only hope of reversing the decent into Central Control and an Orwellian control society is by electing a Conservative Government.
Hain on "Question Time" looked most upset when told from the floor You may forget us - but at the next election, we will remember you
That resonated with everyone.
Hain was comprehensively taken to the cleaners, shown to be misrepresenting the truth on just about every point he tried to make.
Comforting he is our Secretary of State.
Looks like The No 10 machine is out to get the chipmunk.
The rest of the rebels will no doubt follow soon.
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Re 45
West-Wales,
It really is very interesting that with you if it's a shambles at Westminster it's the party's fault, it's never the system. Consistency?
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Re 41 + 42
The moderators seem to be taking an extremely long time over this!
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