Mr J and Mr G
They came, anoraks buffed to a shine and answered four rounds of questions on a decade of devolution.
The Public Affairs Cymru annual quiz drew lobbyists, journalists and politicians - the sharpest, most competitive political brains in the Bay no less. There was some sport and general knowledge in there - real life stuff - thrown in to confuse those who haven't dared miss one First Minister's Questions since 1999. You mean you don't KNOW who the Welsh national football team manager was on the day the Assembly first met in plenary?
Which political party came out top? Victory amongst the politicians to The Lord Derbys - the Welsh Conservatives, team title harking back to the party leader back in 1859 when they last won the popular vote in Wales ... and beating the other parties for the second time in five days as they put it. It helped that Welsh Labour didn't field a team. Insert your quip here.
I'll try a couple on you as long as you promise not to resort to Google.
Name the Assembly Members who've been present for some part of all three Assembly terms. (Much debate last night but the teams and question setter eventually agreed there were 37 names, so 37 points up for grabs).
In percentage terms which Welsh Assembly seat has the biggest majority?
Name the five permanent Wales rugby managers since devolution ... and
when the Assembly was established, how many Welsh MPs and Lords became AMs?
A clue: Ieuan Wyn Jones is one of them, the one name forgotten by all three of the teams who were in the lead at that point. Shame!
No danger though of AMs on the Finance Committee forgetting Mr Jones. They've taken on the Deputy First Minister before now on what they see as his "breathtaking" refusal to disclose to them a document detailing private advice he was given by an expert panel - advice that he considered before putting together the Assembly Government's road-building strategy.
All the same hearing a Labour Assembly Member, Alun Davies, threatening to subpoena Ieuan Wyn Jones to appear before the Committee to justify why he is withholding the information caused his fellow members to sit up and press officers to finish their lunch early.
Chair Angela Burns said she'd check with officials whether such a move was possible. Mr Davies was there ahead of her. He'd done his homework. He'd checked the Government of Wales Act 2006 and was entirely clear that Committees have the right to subpoena Ministers to appear before them.
What a shame he couldn't rustle up a team to appear in last night's quiz with that sort of knowledge of procedures.
The official response suggests Mr Jones "would be more than willing to meet the Chair of the Committee to discuss this issue and to reassure the committee, once again, that due process is being followed". His refusal to make the private advice public before decisions have been taken and policies announced, it says, "is entirely consistent with the Government's Code of Practice on Access to Information."
By the way how many votes did Lord Derby and his Conservatives win in Wales back in 1859 to top the poll? The answer to that one is a whopping 2,267 votes to the Liberals' 1,585 votes. No need for Lib-Dem type local focus teams back then to knock on doors.
And that Welsh national football manager ...?
It was Bobby Gould.
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~43~RS~)
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Only slightly cheated and might well be wrong but started from the list of current members....
Leighton Andrews, Lorraine Barrett, Rosemary Butler, Christine Chapman,Jane Davidson, Brian Gibbons, Janice Gregory,John Griffiths, Edwina Hart, Jane Hutt, Ann Jones, Carwyn Jones, Huw Lewis, Val Lloyd, Rhodri Morgan, Lynne Neagle, Carl Sargeant, Karen Sinclair, Gwenda Thomas, Jocelyn Davies, Elin Jones, Helen Mary Jones, Dafydd El, Ieuan Wyn Jones, Dai Lloyd, Janet Ryder,Rhodri Glyn Thomas, Nick Bourne, Alun Cairns,William Graham,David Melding, Jonathan Morgan,Mick Bates, Peter Black, Michael German, Jenny Randerson, Kirsty Williams,
Majority - I'd guess (without looking) Meirionydd?
Rugby - Henry, Hansen, Ruddock, Jenkins, Gatland
Mps and Lords - Wigley, Dafis, Elis Tomas, Wyn Jones, Ron Davies, Alun Michael, Rhodri Morgan - 7?
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Andrews shouldn't be there. Ditto Sargeant
Andrew Davies should but that leaves me one short then
Definitely Dwyfor Meirionydd
MP- Marek
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What about the answers to this question which has some relevance to us all
http://www.scottishreview.net/KRoy110.html
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Sorry, Ms Powys, but supporter of more devolution, and of self-determination I might be, but I can't work up any enthusiasm for such totally unimportant (to the people of Wales) and inconsequential information (imho of course)!
Now if we had a Parliament with real power...
As for roads and transport. I'm for transparency, and it matters not one jot to me who is in charge of it, be it IWJ or anyone else. Let's have open government. We've had enough secrecy in Westminster.
I can't blame IWJ for the appalling lack of investment in Wales' transport infrastructure over the decades. What I do know is that I often travel on local trains in South Wales which are old, dirty and noisy. The stations and their facilities are appalling. Many of the buses are the same, and there have been significant cuts in services very recently. There has been no investment in Wales' railway system since the Victorians, but plenty of cuts.
There honestly doesn't appear to be a transport strategy as far as I'm concerned. The A465 was constructed decades ago, and has been a dangerous three lane road for most of that time. North-south road links are abysmal. It takes 4-5 hours to travel from Cardiff or Swansea to Bangor, more during the summer months. There are four trains each way per day on the 'Heart of Wales' from Swansea to Shrewsbury and it takes four hours for that journey. The rolling stock is pathetic.
I have sympathy with whoever is Wales' transport minister. Its a loser of a job. Just enough funds to tinker with the problem, which is what this criticism is about. Don't blame Ieuan, blame the stinking rotten inadequate government Wales has had for a century.
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"The Public Affairs Cymru annual quiz drew lobbyists, journalists and politicians - the sharpest, most competitive political brains in the Bay no less."
Any doubts I have that Cardiff Bay consists of a 'Taffia' of politicians influenced by Lobbyists, and getting a 'soft touch' from journalists, all of whom rely on each other to maintain a nexus of cosy contacts and thus maintain each others livelihoods have been banished by this post.
It all sounds jolly cosy to me. I thought the point of journalism was to 'afflict the comfortable' ? And they sound exceedingly comfortable to me.
Just wait until those 10% spending cuts kick in, and people ask some very searching questions about what all that money being spent on great buildings and fancy furniture could be better spent on.
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5. As Rome burns and all that? The contempt these people have for us in these 'very difficult times' is laughable no doubt a bit of hilarity before they break up for summer recess. What next 'battleships''draughts'
'devolution'.Peurile pastimes at our expense but the million dollar question is who's on the trade mission to Smithsonians? Who has done enough to promote devolution to be invited this year? Rhodri Morgan says it will be the biggest mission to leave these shores.I thought there was a recession on?
As for the media participation perhaps these people were cosying up for the new post of 'media commisioner' especially with the BBC cutting wages by 40%.Where did they find this £25 million lottery funding for good causes they say and after all the fuss they've made about the Olympic funding.The mind boggles.
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Seems like most of the Lobbyists are from organisations funded wholly or in part by the Assembly.
Wonder why it hasn't been subject of an investigation by the media?
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Have a good weekend Betsan...its obviousy been a very stressful week for you.
Lobbyists and PR-istas to be investigated by... the BBC/Medya? The Churn by the Churnalists? Dogs to reject... "Whiskers"?
Why next you'll all be demanding that the BBC Llandaff lackery/hackery and Menna management reveal their er, (public sector) salaries! (and extended family contracts)...
NEVER!
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Democracy and Open Government in Action?
Who Said?
"I have said on several occasions that we should govern in the sunshine and not behind the curtains and that greater openness should be at the heart of our business."
and who said this, about who and what happened to open government.
No danger though of AMs on the Finance Committee forgetting Mr Jones. They've taken on the Deputy First Minister before now on what they see as his "breathtaking" refusal to disclose to them a document detailing private advice he was given by an expert panel - advice that he considered before putting together the Assembly Government's road-building strategy.
Who Said
"The Higher Education Act 2004 provides the Assembly with the necessary powers to ensure continued progress in delivering a world-class higher education system in Wales...."
Who refuses to set up a complaints scheme to comply with the above Act and Administrative Law?
Who as Visitor to the Federal University of Wales wrote to the First Minister on this issue?
What did he do about it and why?
Which Committee is now going to debate the failure of regulation in Welsh higher education.
Which organisation is now going to regulate Welsh universities under the Charity Act 2006 and make its findings public?
Finally, what is going to happen to that "....world-class higher education system in Wales...."
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I received a did you know email this morning, it went .....
... did you know "Plas Menai", a water sports centre, is owned and run by the "Sports Council for Wales"...
... a Quango owning a business? Socialism by the back door .....
Is there anything else you might confess Rhodri, they say confession is good for the soul, any other State businesses?
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Good grief how terrible - I hope you have something more substantial to complain about. Like all those terrible municipally owned enterprises like schools, leisure centres, art galleries, museums, playgrounds etc....
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Lyn #11
Were you responding to #9 or #10, this is the sort of comment one expects from Plaid or the Assembly Government.
Stonemason says in his Blog;
When you consider the Welsh Assembly, how much of what they do is justified, how much of what they do cannot be justified, is it governance or management, how much of the work of this government could be discarded with no ill effect to the people of Wales
Perhaps he should also have pointed out, how much of the work of this government diverts assets away from core services like Health and Education, to the detriment of the people of Wales.
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Lyn_Thomas,
There is a difference between quango and local authority, the latter is democratically elected, the former has its hands in my wallet without my vote.
My complaint is about accountability, or lack of it, in Wales, at Cardiff Bay, by its appointed quangos.
West-Wales,
You have the rights of it, I believe it important that the wrongs are published, the electorate can be irritated to the point where rejection of the coalition parties will be dramatic, this irritation needs to be in the paper press not just internet, there is just enough time before the next election to the WAG, UKIP could very well play an important part in this process as they attracted an interesting portion of the electorate tired of the far left wing Plaid and left wing Labour. People understand that government spending is not always good.
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The Sports Council for Wales has always run various sports centres. For example the National Sports Centre in Cardiff was up and running back in the 1970s, which included a variety of sports facilities. Nothing sinister, nothing unusual. Stonemason is tilting at windmills... unless he wants to lambast the Tories who maintained and expanded the role of that quango when they ran Wales - indeed the expansion of the Quango state under them was one of the reasons that devolution was brought in, to bring those quangos under the control of a body elected by the people of Wales.
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Looking back over shoulders when a future loaded with debt beckons is not the Conservative way, the Plaid / Labour coalition cabal at Cardiff Bay continue to wear their rose tinted glasses, glasses that display subliminal messages to the wearer..
Lyn_Thomas might be reminded that the hard times ahead need financial responsibility that is obviously lacking at Cardiff Bay. It is not the responsibility of government to provide hobbies, it is their duty to provide a good equitable education to all, their duty to create a framework for enterprise to flourish, encourage the creation of good housing.
Government support of the Nuclear replacement at Anglesey would do something to raise the electorate above the level of poverty they are forced to endure.
Government support for the Severn barrage could hasten the creation of many thousands of jobs within easy reach of the South Wales valleys.
Government cajoling the local authorities to find land for housing so that housing associations can build houses, would be welcome.
But no, the Welsh Assembly, government, quangos and others fiddle whilst the poor get poorer, children are forced to accept a second rate education and people continue to live in squalid conditions.
The Conservatives look forward to the Post-Bureaucratic Age, where the information revolution meets the progressive Conservative political philosophy......a philosophy that is sceptical about big state power; committed to social responsibility and non-state collective action.
There is no "Don Quixote of La Mancha" at this keyboard, there is a Stonemason disgusted by the actions of our politicians, in the way the people of Wales have been treated by an unholy coalition at Cardiff Bay. Windmills, only one, the windmill of disgust that grows as each page of ineptitude is turned in the book of political negligence.
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So you would close the National Museum, close all the Sport Centre facilites, good to know that the tory cuts would deliver. Where would housing associations get the money to build these houses? Certainly not from the receipts from council house sales, after all they are sold under the cost of replacement, ie with discounts to the tenants, thus you have diminishing returns.
What about libraries, one of Thatchers policies that was scuppered was to abolish free libraries with the introduction of charges for libraries, you oppose state funding of the arts and sport, presumably libraries are next?
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# 11 If you were referring to my comment at #10 it was Jane Davidson who banged on about world class higher education as well as refusing to fully implement the Higher Education Act to force the University of Wales to implement a complaints procedure for students and the public. It was the Queen who wrote to Rhodri Morgan who ignored her letter, because it said nothing new. The only thing that is world class is the sophistry.
Fortunately, the Innovation, Universities, Science and Skills Select Committee at Westminster will discuss the appalling way Welsh universities treats its students. What are the Enterprise and Learning Committee doing about it, nothing of course?
Fortunately, help is at hand with the Charity Act 2006 and thankfully Welsh universities will be regulated by the Charity Commission who is totally independent of government. Across the border, the Higher Education Funding Council for England HEFCE will regulate English universities; we do have a Welsh equivalent HEFCW that is a dismal failure and a shining example of how public money can be wasted and financial mismanagement concealed by an unelected and unaccountable QUANGO.
What has happened in higher education is just the thin end of the wedge, we will soon be banned from being able to complain about or monitor transport issues.
This would never be tolerated in Westminster so why must we put up with it in Wales?
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Lyn_Thomas
I'm afraid those old chestnuts you will have to remain chestnuts, if an activity has been supported by a democratic process who am I to say stop, Quango driven enterprises at the tax payers expense is not democratic.
Housing Associations do not find it difficult to buy land, build houses, rent some, sell some, as ling as the business case is good. If you are interested in how a good housing association offers solutions try looking up Jephson Housing Association Group "http://www.jephson.org.uk/", no half filled glasses there.
Scraping the barrel introducing MT, try the Conservative web site, read a few DC speeches.....
.....a "can do" party for the next government.
Whereas Plaid are a .....
........................."look back in anger" type.
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What about these people being a waste of public money
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1192894/Revealed-How-Kinnocks-enjoyed-astonishing-10m-ride-EU-gravy-train.html?ITO=1490
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alfsplace1986,
..... well ?
..... don't be shy, what's it all about alfi, don't leave us hanging on a web link, what would you do?
It's grist to the Conservative mill, left wing politics are not needed on the next journey.
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Tell me then these quangos that you are against, are not Housing Associations forms of quangos, elected by no body but using public money? And other than borrowing, if they sell on houses at a loss (which is what they would have to do) then they are selling a diminishing asset, the only way they can make up the deficit is through the public purse.
Tell me what would you cut? What services would you abandon. Libraries, museums, leisure centres.... what else would you get rid of? And please no just referring to the conservative website.
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I don't believe Housing Associations could be labelled as quangos, the HA I often quote, Jephson with almost 16000 homes, is for example a charity, others are limited companies.
A study by a major Housing Association concluded that, preventing the purchase of social housing produced no positive benefit because :
1. The vast majority of purchasers remained in the property after purchase, the balance remained in equilibrium.
2. There was no cost to the taxpayer as a property could not be sold at a loss to the outstanding mortgage commitment by the housing provider.
To answer the question at your paragraph 2 is difficult because no-one knows exactly what mess public finances are in, depending on the level of indebtedness cuts might have to be extensive. But we both know the area's that might provide good opportunities, but if you think for a minute I would give you and yours ammunition to attack any political party before an election manifesto is published .....
..... not ducking the question, DC has publicly called for a reduction in governance with a corresponding reduction in costs, Westminster, regional governments, local authorities the list goes on. This would be a good start, two figures have been bounced around, minus 100 at Westminster and a drop to 35 at Cardiff Bay, with support staff, how many councillors are needed in a typical local authority, Caerphilly for example could cut 50 percent with no adverse affect.
How do you think Plaid might make savings, following its profligate spending spree with its comrades in arms of the Labour party, remember David Copperfield.....
"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pound ought and six, result misery." A very appropriate quote for the days ahead.
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#20 TheStonemason wrote:
"It's grist to the Conservative mill..."
After 17 years of Tory misrule, was Wales prosperous in 1997?
It was the poorest nation within the UK then, and still is. New Labour has continued where the greedy Tories left off, widened the poverty gap, increased child poverty - Wales now ranks below Romania - even the UK is only one place above. They have made the benefit culture chronic.
#19
The Kinnocks!
What more needs to be said about Labour's nouveau riche? Blair, Prescott... and scores of others. We don't know the half.
How many people would have listened to Kinnock in 1979 had they known how he would turn out? The Labour Party, and particularly its MPs from Wales, have let their country down badly. It was once a party of principle and ideals. Those days are long gone when it represented the interests of working people against the tyranny of the aristocracy, the landowners and the big employers. Now it has no principles, it desperately tries to hang on to power at any price. The likes of Mandelson and Kinnock are elevated to an unaccountable upper house, by an unelected Prime Minister, when nearly everyone other than his selfish sycophantic incompetent ministers and MPs want him gone.
Wales has even worse in store, if that can be imagined, under a Cameron-led Tory government.
Most of us don't even get to choose between one rotten lot or another, because we don't live in a marginal constituency. Labour doesn't bother to campaign in mine, and that leads to complacency and arrogance.
Let's have a Wales where every vote counts and all our elected representatives are accountable. Self-determination is the only solution to a failed Westminster political system.
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Lyn_Thomas , further to your #21 .....
Cuts in services might not be necessary ..... if the public sector could match the private sector productivity.
In the Sunday Times it was estimated we could have had the same level of services today, if the public sector had matched the private sector for 100 Billion less than the intended 670 billion spending this year.
That is 100,000,000,000 pounds sterling saving for no change in services.
And #23 is still "looking back in anger".
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If you reduce the National Assembly to 35 members then there are insufficient members to provide scrutiny, it would not be able to function. It would provide a small saving in relation to its budget and would be an act of spite. It would also greatly reduce its ability to represent the people, it would cease to be proportional in any meaningful sense.
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It's not spite, but as a result of greater devolution of power down to the people, there would be less work. Assembly members might also work a little harder, a little longer, pay more attention to Wales, less attention to the likes of Cuba and Venezuela.
It's amazing what can be done with fewer resources and greater application.
The regional lists would probably be the first to go, it's undemocratic not voting for the person.
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#24
All I can say is that the 21% who voted Tory in Wales of the 38% who voted in total, won't be voting Tory after five years of government under a millionaire, Eton-educated English Tory toff.
We are in for big cuts, whoever is in government. Firstly let's not forget who caused the financial mess and debt mountain which we and our children are saddled with - Blair and Brown.
The cuts in Wales will be even more savage under the Tories, as they were in the 80s and 90s, when they were despised here. The Tories govern in the interest of big business, and the upper and middle classes in England. They know nothing about Wales and care even less. Yes, history has taught us that.
Until 1999 Wales was run by komissars or gauleiters sent down from London. Stonemason and the anti-Wales and anti-Welsh brigade here want a return to those days.
According to the latest opinion poll carried out last week, for the first time the number of people who preferred self-determination was greater than those who wanted devolution scrapped. The number of people who favour devolution, and a further increase in devolution, has grown to its highest ever.
If the Tories govern Wales as they have always done before, and they will, Stonemason will have to move some 100 miles to the east in order to continue voting Conservative, because we will have a new democratic political system here which will reflect the social mix and aspirations of the people of Wales, not those of the wealthy in middle England.
Not looking back in anger, but forward in hope, Stonemason. It is you that prefers the failed politics of the past - the corruption, the sleaze, the hypocrisy, the greed, and the incompetence.
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How about some answers Betsan?
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Apart from the obvious abusive insult referring to people as Nazi's, there is little but a regurgitated rant you have used so many times before, casting entrails to predict a future that would benefit Plaid separatists at #27. It's not going to happen, the Conservatives have already in place the mechanism to commence projects to lift the whole of the United Kingdom into a new prosperity, and Wales is part of this great country. The future is blue.
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And first past the post is not democratic as it does not reflect the will of the people, its only marginally acceptable as the top up seats help correct the undemocratic nature of first past the post. Your solution is a bit of gerymandering and is profoundly undemocratic.
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27 Bryn - what opinion poll was this? I dont remember seeing one last week...
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Lyn #25
if you reduce the National Assembly to 35 members then there are insufficient members to provide scrutiny, it would not be able to function.
Lyn this is rubbish - it is not the job of politicians to trawl through minutiae and supervise in detail everything that is going on.
They are there to set policy.
Few, if any, AM's have the qualifications, understanding or ability to do a meaningful job.
What they are doing is wasting time and money, as well as interfering and hampering the implementation of policy.
Private Industry would rapidly go out of business if it tried to run things the way the Assembly does.
The WDA was an excellent example of how government should handle these complex issues.
Tight terms of reference, full transparency, a properly qualified Board.
With a detailed but straightforward annual report which was fully audited.
We are seriously over governed, and its not working - look at any independent assessment of the outcomes.
Neither is the current PR arrangement working, in fact PR always brings problems and resulted in disproportionate minority control.
Here the influence of Plaid has been divisive. It has resulted in diversion of limited resources away from core services, into minority interest political and social engineering projects, which are damaging the rich cultural diversity of Wales.
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26 Regional Lists are not ideal - especially when they are closed party lists - but a return to simple FPTP is just not democratic.
IMHO the best solution is STV with 3-5 member constituencies - preferablly based on existing county boundaries - so say Cardiff would have 4 MPs and 6AMs - with all main parties gaining representatives in fair proportion, and all candidiates with clear local connection.
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For Dewi H (who might like to join the victorious Gaze of Dragon's Eye team next year ...):
Nick Bourne, Jonathan Morgan, David Melding, Alun Cairns, William Graham, Peter Black, Mike German, Kirsty Wililams, Jenny Randerson, Elanor Burnham, Jocelyn Davies, Janet Ryder, Brian Gibbons, Carwyn Jones, Lorraine Barrett, Rhodri Morgan, Rhodri Glyn Thomas, Elin Jones, Karen Sinclair, Christine Chapman, Edwina Hart, Helen Mary Jones, Dafydd Ellis Thomas, Huw Lewis, Mick Bates, Gwena Thomas, John Griffiths, Rosemary Butler, Janice Gregory, Jane Davidson, Val Lloyd, Andrew Davies, Lynne Neagle, Jane Hutt, Ieuan Wyn Jones, Ann Jones, Dai Lloyd.
Right on Meirionnydd Dwyfor. Right on the rugby coaches.
Well spotted remarkablytidylike. You left out John Marek from the list of former MPs - so it's 8.
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Re 26
Stonemason,
You said:
"...it's undemocratic not voting for the person."
Do you know, I can't for the life of me remember when I last had the opportunity to help elect my Head of State. It must be an oversight.
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#32
"PR always brings problems and resulted in disproportionate minority control."
Blair and the unelected Brown governed with a comfortable majority on 35% of the popular vote. How's that for democracy?
PR always provides an undemocratic result. It has done so throughout the 20th century. It just doesn't work. The result is arrogance and complacency, failure to reform, corruption, sleaze and incompetence. The outcome is always decided in about 40-50 marginals, mainly in England. The UK is as far as I know the only country in the world which elects its legislature using FPTP.
#31 Reported on BBC Wales tv news about a fortnight ago, just in the run-up to the Euro elections. Nine hundred people were surveyed and according to the result it was the first time that more people supported self-determination than supported abolition of the Assembly. I didn't have time that day to chase up the source. Ms Powys may have some information about it.
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Hi Bryn # 36 - like the new name.
Assume you meant FPTP in PR always provides an undemocratic result.
You say The UK is as far as I know the only country in the world which elects its legislature using FPTP.
Off the top of my head I can name five - (six including the UK) there are more!
United States, Canada, India, Belize, and Barbados's.
In Europe France uses a FPTP system with a second ballot, if one candidate is not the clear winner.
New Zealand recently (early 90's) switched to a form of PR based on the German hybrid system (half FPTP half PR) the result has been the appearance of a multitude of small parties many single issue, which has developed into a complex system of constantly changing party support arrangements.
There was an interesting result in a province in Canada before WW2, when I believe the Conservatives headed the poll with over 40% of the total votes cast, tactical voting meant that even though all the other parties got less than 20% each - the Conservatives failed to win a seat.
This is a complex subject, not surprisingly, PR systems are much advocated by minority groups.
It is the only way to get policies with little popular support onto the agenda.
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#35
The UK's democratic deficiency is much wider than FPTP.
As you say, we have an unelected head of state. The monarch and the royal family are unaccountable. How many of these hangers on are there?
How much influence do they have behind the scenes? Why has so much about them been kept from the British public down the years? Why are they treated with such reverence in the media and particularly the BBC? What relevance does an Anglo-German monarch have to Wales? Why does her son have a title which reminds us that we were a conquered people?
The latest example of news drivel was poured out several times each hour on the BBC a couple of days ago about HM's new 'allotment'. She and her husband were trundled out in their best rig-out and umbrella in front of the cameras to view it, whilst the BBC newsreader spoke in reverential tones about how royalty was 'in touch'. We are paying a licence fee for what to me amounts to c**p. The costs of the monarchy are enormous. Yachts to the Caribbean, private jets here and there, a hundred grand security for two minor princesses for a year, etc.
What the monarchy teaches us is that birth and privilege matter. That is not what democracy is about.
Then there are the Mandelsons and the Kinnocks of the political establishment. They are two, shortly to be three, of hundreds of has been party hacks who wouldn't or couldn't face an election. We don't know how many members of the Lords have bribed or bought their seats. There are 93 aristocrats there who were born with a silver spoon in their mouths and the right to legislate and get paid for it at public expense. We can also add a handful of Church of England bishops to the unhealthy and unholy unelected mix.
Its worth reading some of the comments on Brian Taylor's Scottish blog today, on the publication of the Calman Report. The Scots are waking up to the fact that they have been and are being screwed in the British union.
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I find it difficult to use the pen name at #36.
but respond to the double standards employed I will .....
Blair and the unelected Brown governed with a comfortable majority on 35% of the popular vote. How's that for democracy?
It was as democratic as the 25% of the electorate that performed the political walking on water episode a few years ago in Wales.
FiDafydd
I am happy with our head of state, I consider my vote at each parliamentary election to be a vote of confidence for our constitutional monarchy, if you don't like it do something about it, stand for parliament and campaign for your preferred option. I vote for Queen Elizabeth II at every election.
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#39
The 1997 referendum was 51% of the popular vote. Brown is PM on 35% which was 22% of the elctorate on a turnout of 61.3%.
No government in the 20th century achieved over 50% of the vote. That means that in every election the opinions of the majority of the voters was entirely disregarded.
Not democracy at all. The Tories want to keep the UK undemocratic, because that is the only way they'll ever get into power.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#41
Shows how little you know about Wales... ever heard of St Teilo.. Llandeilo, by any chance?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teilo
I certainly don't know what you're talking about.
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#41
"..... if you feel so bad about yourself why advertise it with such a sick name."
I expect an apology for such a comment.
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First past the post is a party list of 1, you don't have the choice of the candidate. At least with the form of PR that I want implemented, STV, you chose from the candidates who you want in, and you can and will chose between candidates of the same party. No safe seats, and a good representation of the electorate's wishes.
In the devolution referendum those that voted voted in favour of the Assembly, more than 50% of the vote, in FPTP candidates can and do win on less than 33% of the votes cast, if you base it on the percentage of the electorate it falls to below 20% often.
I want a representative body to act as a legislature, not a perpetuation of minority rule.
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Re 39
One inconsistency after another. I should be glad really, it makes winning the argument so easy.
But I for one will never genuflect before Cameron the Toff or Mrs Windsor the Unelected.
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penddu #31 responding to Bryn #27
what opinion poll was this?
Possibly Bryn was referring to the ICM poll in February, which was referred to several times in the run up to the elections.
There was a YouGov poll around the day of the Euro Elections but results have not been released - talk is the client was unhappy with the result.
Accurate opinion polling in Wales is difficult, with distinct very different opinions in different geographical political areas.
Lyn #44
First past the post is a party list of 1, you don't have the choice of the candidate. At least with the form of PR that I want implemented, STV, you chose from the candidates who you want in, and you can and will chose between candidates of the same party.
My preference is for FPTP with primaries open to votes from all, for each party, so the electorate get to choose the candidate for each party.
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Re 43
Did I miss something here?
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No 47. I object to the very disrespectful manner to which you refer to the Queen of this country who except for "cranks","certain welsh nationalist" is widely admired for her service to the people of this land. What ever is said of the Monarchy they stood their ground in 1939 in front of Mr.Hitler and "served" where practicable and the Duke of Edinburgh was on "active" service in Royal Navy. In other word they did their" bit",and I compare the "in your eyes" wondeful former leader of PC who scuttled himself away from German/Japanese bayonets etc and if everybody had done the same we'd be speaking German by now and British Jews would have been exterminated. Learn some respect and the benefial impact of our Queen on even American Presidents,even today. The Americans barely know where little and insignifican wales IS,but they sure know who the Queen of England IS.
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48: Why do people get all bleary eyed and start humming Vera Lyn songs whenever they try and defend the monarchy - WWII finished more than 60 years ago - despite what they might have said and done then the world has moved on.
What relevance have they in todays world?? None.
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Re 48
"Learn some respect and the benefial(sic) impact of our Queen on even American Presidents,even today. The Americans barely know where little and insignifican(sic) wales IS,but they sure know who the Queen of England IS."
Says it all really.
I'll not be doffing any cap to anyone anytime soon. Your subservience is frightening. She's no queen of mine.
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Delighted to be criticised by 49 and 50. Whose talking about deference and doffing of caps you little NATS. This is practical governance working to benefit of all in UK including NATS who want to break up the country. I noted that Mrs Obama requested that her children see Buckingham Palace and this was arranged so it appears the Queen is doing her duty in establishing first class relationships with Presidents and their families. Thats relevance surely,but with you NATS you can only see the little picture i.e. Wales rather than world wide perspective.
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51. I assume that because you keep capitalising NATS that it means something?? Or are you just highlighting your prejudiced bigotry for all to see?
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#51 - Snoutsintrough - the Windsors have had their snouts in our trough for centuries. What is their practical use for the UK today - to provide amusment for the children of visiting dignitaries like some interactive Sain Ffagan's? The head of state in the UK is unelected, she gets the job because of her grandparents and father (because her uncle was deemed not worthy of the job) - and because she is the correct religious sect. If she had an older brother she would be ineligible for the post. Where is the democracy in this? What we need in the UK is total representation through the ballot box not a system that harks back to the dark ages and costs a horrendous amount of money daily - money that could be spent on child poverty, social housing, health equality and so on, and so on...
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Re 51
Do you need to be as angry as Snouts to be a proper monarchist? In that case, I really am a lost cause.
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Re 43 again,
What was the problem with your name Bryn?
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48. Snoutsintrough.
Oh dear, hadn't they recently changed their name from a German one to the very English sounding Windsor and wasn't the Duke of Windsor very friendly with Hitler. Which was part of, if not the main the reason for him having to abdicate the throne.
To make themselves seem patriotic and 'English'they had to show themselves doing something for the war effort. Until that is, they would have been placed in some danger, then you wouldn't have seen them for dust. They would have been whisked abroad and their 'subjects' having to face the consequences.
As for the Obama children perhapes they wanted to go to the toilet and that was the nearest place to go. because like us mere mortals it is impossible to find one anywhere these days.
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If you go to the BBC site at http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/learnwelsh/
input Teilo and press enter .....
you have a translation .....
No apology #43.
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#55 Dunno, no idea what he was on about.
Regarding the monarchy. My primary objection is based on it being fundamentally undemocratic. It also symbolises privilege, 'birth', heredity, the aristocracy, dynasticism, prejudice and bigotry. The latter two because it virtually ensures in perpetuity a white Protestant monarch.
Personalities are irrelevant to me. It matters not if an individual is 'good' 'bad' or 'indifferent' in the role. Elevating someone because of birth sets a bad example for society. Although I'm not an admirer of the USA, it is (theoretically) possible for any citizen born therein to become its President. Obama illustrates that point particularly well.
The English monarchy has an unfortunate history. Its origins are feudal and based on ownership of land, military prowess, and might. It still remains the case that in theory all land in the UK belongs to the Crown, even 'freehold' land, and certainly if there is no claimant to a particular title it will revert. Perhaps more unfortunate is that the monarchy's militaristic nature is perpetuated down to the present time. The queen herself and all her sons have served in the armed forces, as have both her grandsons. Of course, their service is not that of ordinary recruits. They are favoured and given status. Its ironic that the monarch and his immediate heir in practice cannot actually serve their country in armed conflict. Large amounts of money are spent on their military training, for instance as pilots.
IMO the role of a head of state in a modern democracy should emphasise living in harmony in the world community, rather than involvement in conflict and imperialistic wars.
It is often claimed that the English monarchy is 'constitutional'. Its true that its power was limited by events, particularly by the so-called 'Glorious Revolution' of 1688-89. Regrettably it was an 'incomplete' revolution as the powers of the Crown remained largely undetermined. Under the early Hanoverians Cabinet government evolved and the monarchy took much less interest and direct participation in government. However no-one really knows the limits as they remain unwritten. It is theoretically possible for the queen to dissolve parliament even when the PM has a comfortable majority - she could have done it during the recent crisis over expenses - some people actually called for her to do so.
Even so, undoubtedly her powers are limited, but the extent of her influence through patronage and what happens in secret are unknown. There has certainly been considerable influence, if not indirect manipulation of the media. The queen's advisers are past masters at spin and the media, particularly the BBC treat the royals with immense respect and often great reverence, which must have an effect on public opinion. Many times unpalatable facts about the royals have been censored in the British press, even when they have been published elsewhere.
I'm convinced that many of the UK's shortcomings politically and governmentally are the result of political power being at the top... in the sovereignty of the crown in parliament
For these and other reasons I'm a republican, and would prefer an elected non-political and non-executive head of state for a fixed and limited term.
There are added reasons why, being Welsh, I would like the monarchy abolished. Its Anglo-German. The head of state is king or queen of England. It represents Wales' unfortunate history as a conquered and occupied country, with an imposed foreign prince. As long as Wales is part of the union, I would be in favour of the UK becoming a republic. However were Wales to secede and become a republic, I would be quite happy for England to retain its monarchy if that was the democratic will of the people there because it would be none of my concern.
Hopefully there'll be a republican quiz at a sovereign Welsh Parliament one day. I wouldn't mind being a competitor in it, either.
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57 Thestonemason
And???
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#57
As I said previously, it only shows your ignorance of Wales and the Welsh Language and that you can't differentiate between a proper noun and an adverb. Try doing a google search instead, then take some Welsh lessons, before you start misusing a simple dictionary without doing some more research. If you ever visit foreign parts where you know nothing of their language, relying on a dictionary alone can get you into big trouble, because it can lead to misunderstandings - based on (your) ignorance.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Could the moderators please explain what I did wrong
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62
All I did, was say that mapexx was trying to start an argument and provoke comments against himself also what a sad person he is.
What have I said that is wrong, please explain you say that you send your answer by Email. I am waiting.
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message 64....
I suggest it is yourself looking to provoke an argument.
I took the literal meaning of the name used by Bryn,, in the hopes he would set straight what HE means by the name.
Nothing to say an argument was being sought, just a clarification, so please butt out.
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Re 57
Stonemason,
You've got this thing about the name wrong; it can't be that difficult to apologize, surely.
I enjoyed 58.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
What is in a name A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.
Only you people would take the name of one of the holiest men in Welsh history and denegrate it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teilo
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#68
Having looked at the output of the writer at #60 I concluded that there is little to be reverent about.
In fact it is unlikely that the writer has any religious leanings at all, few so far to the left have.
This storm in a blog is because a nickname was created by adding two words together joined by an underscore, it was designed to shower the input of the contributors at Betsan's blog with a coating of separatist disapproval.
#66.
Apologise to the person who's single stated aim in this life is to destroy the Union, Hell would freeze first, if there was cause that is.
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Re 69
Well if the Tories do win the next Westminster election, it looks like we're in for a period of the same type of arrogance and superiority that we are so used to from them. WE can't possibly get things wrong. WE certainly don't need to apologize. Sounds very familiar doesn't it?
I, for one, believe Sant Teilo does deserve our respect. Stonemason's silly error does give a good deal away about his character.
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An interesting silence has settled on this thread.
Sorry is the hardest word!
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Message 68...
I asked for, but did not get the answer I requested.
Therefore I will repeat the question, what does Teilo mean.
One does not just pick a few letters out of the air and invent a name, especially one that has a defined meaning in another walk of life.
I could quote the name Fuchs, or Fooks, we all know there is a similar sounding word, not used in polite company, but although they all sound the same they are not spelled the same, and when investigated, mean totally different things.
So where is the answer to my question?
Meaning of Teilo, as a noun, if you please.
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#71 - FiDafydd - the posts above are complete and utter proof, if it was needed, that a little information is a very, very dangerous thing.... Make you wonder about the veracity of other 'facts' in other posts by these people.....
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Re 72
mapexx,
As you quite rightly give Teilo a capital 'T', your question is nonsensical; because tacitly or perhaps in your ignorance you concede that Teilo is a Proper noun and not a noun.
It therefore follows that the answer to your question is to be found in message 68.
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Re 74
I should have said that your question is nonsensical because you put a proviso to it (in one of your messages that has since disappeared probably) that until you get that explanation you are entitled to refer to the saint's name as a heap of manure or some similar insult.
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#73 wrote .....
"by these people....."
..... would these people not have a place in your world, rejected possibly. This would be a minority rejection.
#74 .....
I referred to a pen name, a nickname, two words connected by an underscore, Upper-case or Lower-case is not relevant, if the nickname had included the word "of" there would be a case to answer, it didn't, there is no case to answer, the writer is as controversial as his choice of label.
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Re 76
Extraordinary!
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#76 wrote ....'would these people not have a place in your world, rejected possibly. This would be a minority rejection.'
I apologise - I do not follow a word of that sentence - comma missing or question mark maybe?
But to clarify - 'these people' meant you and the 'others' who had so little knowledge of Welsh that you could not determine that Teilo does not mean the same as the verb 'teilio' (there's a second 'i' there see and makes the world of difference) - and yet you carried on with your own interpretation as if you were right and speakers of Welsh were wrong - and you repeatedly discounted their explainations.
Then when the mistake is apparent to all you will not apologise but dig the deeper hole.
I think you must see this but find it difficult to swallow. That is your problem. If you rely on an internet translating machine for your information rather than ask a Welsh speaker or look it up in a dictionary.
A mighty fall often follows those with your disposition.
And the truth of other things you have said.......rejected by this tiny minority.
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