Live from City Hall ...
I know you didn't ask for a live blog of the All Wales Convention's final public event but ...
As I arrive at City Hall Derek the weatherman is setting up to give you his version of the weather. There's thunder on the way. Inside the All Wales Convention is setting up to try, once more, to gauge the political climate ... Thunder on the way? Or a damp squib?
Outside too a group of No campaigners, people I've got to know on first name terms over the past few months and a gang determined to use this last opportunity - the last public event held by the Convention - to make their voices heard.
"Ask them how many of the people here tonight work for WAG in one way or other!" says Dave to Trisan Garel-Jones. "Good idea" comes the response, followed by "What's WAG?"
Inside Plaid's Helen Mary Jones uses her own experience of the LCO process to illustrate her own version of the complexity of the system, the many hurdles she had to negotiate before reaching the point she'd wanted to reach from the beginning. She looks pleased to have told her story so succinctly and effectively.
"Very glad to hear you got there in the end" retorts Tristan Garel Jones.
Richard Wyn Jones and Archbishop Barry Morgan join in. The present devolutionary settlement gives us a system that is not a sensible way of making government. It is neither clear nor transparent. No-one should dismiss that fact.
It's Nick Ainger's turn. Legislation IS complex. The environment is complex too. And if complexity and taking your time leads to better scrutiny, then all the better. He WANTS Wales to reach Part Four powers (into real Convention-speak here) but he doesn not think the people of Wales could vote for it. It's a mistake to get bogged down in a Byzantine debate about whether a system is Byzantine.
Sir Emyr? Ah. the traditional Jones-Parry disclaimer. He may have a view but if he does, it's of no interest to any one and will have no bearing on what he has to say tonight.
The first round of applause for the first man to have asked for equality: the right to decide for himself what devolutionary settlement we have in Wales.
True Wales are keeping their powder dry.
Tristan Garelt-Jones has just proven that he was brought up speaking Welsh before moving to Spain. He adds in English, please don't get hung up on the idea of devolution for devolution's sake being a good thing. He brings into the debate that infamous slippery slope. Loud applause.
It's not helpful, says Helen Mary Jones, to refer to that slippery slope. "Why not? It's what you want isn't it" says Mr Jones!
The debate is heating up.
Off to broadcast on Newyddion.
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~25~RS~)
Comments
Sign in or register to comment.
(Un)True Wales are a very small but vociferous group - and they have trailed the AWC around Wales trying to disrupt it and trying present their views as being representative - I am sure that EJP and co know this and will not be distracted by their circus.
Complain about this comment
#1 wrote .....
.... trying present their views as being representative
..... but it is representative, representative of a contrary view, it is called democracy.
True Wales is not a small group, just the tip of the democratic iceberg, surrounded by an undemocratic Fog.
Complain about this comment
True Wales are not a large organisation, and I'd love to debate with them, unfortunately they don't debate, they resort to untruths and smears. I would like to hear a coherent argument that the current system produces better government than a clear devolution of primary legislative power.
Complain about this comment
Go on believing that, Lyn.
Let's have the referendum and see whether the people of Wales want to line the pockets of even more members of the political elite or whether they'd prefer to see the money invested in decent services.
Complain about this comment
I laugh myself stupid at comments like let's see whether the people of Wales want to line the pockets of even more members of the political elite.
We are lining the pockets of the Westminster elite every single day, we are funding illegal wars every single day, we are funding the Queen of England every single day.
Yet you are happy to do this but unhappy to line the pockets of your own?
Complain about this comment
Notonationalism, can you give me a decent argument in favour of the present system of LCOs. Not one based on it will lead to 3rd world poverty or they want it so they can get more backhanders and expenses.
Complain about this comment
No, Lyn - I can't justify the current system. I would support the repeal of the undemocratic 2006 Government of Wales Act and the abolition of the expensive LCO system. I would dearly like to see the Assembly delivering effectively on public services rather than entangling itself in this costly legislative process.
Complain about this comment
So you would abolish the distinction between the Executive and the Legislature and repeal all those Westminster acts that directly give the National Assembly legislative powers but keep the National Assembly as a weak body with no primary legislative powers what so ever.
Well that is not what is on offer in the referendum, the Government of Wales offers only the choice of continuation or moving to devolving legislative powers over the 20 fields as defined in the act.
So give me some arguments to either back the yes side or back the no side ie support the status quo.
Complain about this comment
#8
'..the Government of Wales offers only the choice of continuation or moving to devolving legislative powers over the 20 fields as defined in the act.'
Is that actually what the statute says? I haven't examined it, but at the AWC meeting I attended I got the impression that legislative powers would be devolved one way or another, either piecemeal or in one go, as it were, after a 'Yes' vote in a referendum.
At the time, I wasn't entirely convinced of that exposition. Piecemeal legislative devolution might grind to a halt, as its dependent on attitudes and decisions at Westminster, which in turn are influence by the Executive and whichever party has a majority (I nearly typed 'Westmonster' hehe - after a libation at the pub earlier)
Complain about this comment
In 1997, the people of Wales voted for the establishment of the Assembly by the narrowest of margins. One advantage of having the Assembly was that decisions about where taxpayers' money could be spent would be made closer to home. Unfortunately, Assembly politicians and their officials immediately became dissatisfied by the unimportance of this fundamental task to which we, the Welsh people, entrusted them. They allow stroke services to become 'scandalously bad', they fail abysmally on ambulance response times (46% target response success rate compared with England's 77%, and Welsh schoolchildren are funded by £500% less per head than their English counterparts.
It seems, however, that AMs view such matters as beneath them and believe that they will not have the status that they feel they deserve until they become law-makers. Since they are already failing on what they promised they would deliver in 1997, why on earth should we trust them with law-making?
What is on offer in this proposed referendum is a travesty of democracy. It appears to give choice to the people but actually only lets us decide whether the Assembly should have primary law-making powers now or later. The Welsh Government is behaving like a tinpot dictatorship, appearing to open a consultation but setting the parameters of that debate with such a narrowness of scope that it has become utterly meaningless. I do not support the status quo but will not be given the opportunity to express this at the ballot box.
So, Lyn, I will not play the game. If they grant us the referendum (and astonishingly, they feel no shame in telling us that there will not be one unless they believe they can achieve a 'Yes' vote), I shall be voting 'No' and advising everyone I know to do the same.
Complain about this comment
Well Notonationalism, this referendum is the creature of Westminster and not the National Assembly, its dictated by the Westminster Government of Wales Act, a fudge to shore up the splits in the Labour Party, so if there is blame it lies at Westminster.
How can you have a 500% less per head expenditure? That statistic is nonsense. Also Welsh educational expenditure compared to England only covers that period of compulsory education, it doesn't include the expenditure that Wales has made in pre school education, which will go a long way to improve educational standards.
Do you think the ministers are ignoring the ambulance situation? What can be done to improve it? England is far more urban than Wales, we start with a massive disadvantage. Ministers are making this a priority, witness the removal of heads of the trust.
You make it sound like ministers can only deal with one issue at a time.... they can multi task you know, I would imagine that constitutional affairs take up a tiny part of their workload. Your depiction of Welsh government is a travesty of the truth.
Complain about this comment
£500 not 500% - figure courtesy of Professor David Reynolds.
The ambulance response time statistic in Torfaen is 19%. It doesn't strike me as being a particularly rural area. You cannot go on defending the indefensible, Lyn.
It's time to ask the people of Wales whether they'd prefer their hard-earned taxes to be spent on decent public services or on more politicians and lawyers.
The Government of Wales Act was a stitch up- a sop to the nationalists down the Bay. The sooner it is repealed the better.
Complain about this comment
So having a Secretary of State for Health in London rather than Cardiff will improve the ambulance time in Torfaen? Please show me how? And again a 19% statistic - what does this mean? 19% of what?
Complain about this comment
To clarify: only 46% of ambulances respond to a category A emergency call within eight minutes in Wales, whereas 77% of ambulances respond within eight minutes in England. In Torfaen only 19% of ambulances reach this target.
It's baffling, isn't it? I, too, would have expected Edwina to sort this out - but she hasn't.
Complain about this comment
Notonationalism,
Allow me to totally discredit you if I may in reference to your quote: "The Government of Wales act- a sop to nationalists down the Bay".
Firstly no self respecting nationalist would have requested or desired that mess of an Act.
Secondly, the architect of the Government of Wales Act 2006 was none other than anti-devolutionist Peter Hain. A sop to which Nationalists? In 2006 and the years preceding when this Bill was being constructed Plaid had no power and were not part of any Government.
If anything it was a well planned attempt at sabotaging devolution by the NuLabour machine.
Complain about this comment
It means there are serious problems with our ambulance service, one that I doubt that London will resolve. From your figures its clear that some areas in Wales do far better than others. Now there have been a succession of people running the service that have failed to correct this problem, suggesting that it is far deeper seated than just a simple administrative cure. Do you really think that the Health Minister is ignoring the situation? If it was that simple it would be fixed by now.
Complain about this comment
View these comments in RSS