Door opening
It is his job of course but I've never heard the Presiding Officer sound quite ... well quite as much of a presider as he did this morning on Radio Wales.
Lord Dafydd Elis-Thomas was out to ooze authority and use his three minutes to say "nah nah nah nah nah" to those in Westminster who've dared suggest that MPs are 'independent' agents. They are not, he said. They are public servants and therefore directly accountable - as are Assembly Members - to the public for everything that they claim.
That is why you can hover your mouse on this and at a click, read AMs expenses for 2008-09. That is why, from this Autumn, you'll be able to click month by month if you're interested and find out what your Assembly Member has spent and claimed back from the public purse.
And let's give Lord Elis-Thomas his due (in lieu of expenses for coming in early to do the interview.) He has presided over an institution where those who work in it, for it, visit it can utter the word transparency without blushing. Along with the Assembly Commission he has decided that not all publicity is, after all, good publicity and that coming clean, going for the option of disclosure is better than being dragged kicking and screaming online and only then when the thick, black pen has done the rounds.
But hang on a minute. Just before we get too carried away with our virtue here in Wales - as though there's something in the water that makes Cardiff Bay more virtuous than Westminster - let's cast our mind back a few years.
Yes, there were the iPods, the sofas, the tvs and bathroom makeovers. But I'm thinking institution here, not individuals.
It was only a few years ago that Freedom of Information bids to the Assembly enquiring about AMs' expenses were turned down. Openness? What openness?
As late as April 2007 - in other words after the 2006 Government of Wales Act had created the situtation where there was an Assembly Commission in a position to respond - we sent an FoI bid to the staff of the Presiding Officer requesting access to expense claims and Additional Costs Allowances. The final paragraph went like this:
"I understand that the individual expenses claims of members has been publicly available in Scotland since 2005. I trust that as part of its ongoing commitment to transparency and openess the Assembly will wish to follow suit". As it so happens, back then, no it didn't.
Back came the response:
"The files referred to in your request contain information which is considered to be personal to the Assembly Member concerned, and where relevant, the staff who work for them and third parties. Therefore the release of this information would again not be consistent with Data Protection Principles and are, therefore, also exempt under section 40 of the Freedom of Information Act 2000. Whilst it is possible that the files contain information that may not be personal information then the cost of reviewing each of the files and redacting any personal information would be disproportionate.
However if you are able to be more specific with your request we can give you a breakdown of Assembly Members expenses".
It didn't wish to emulate the Scottish transparency then ... but it does now. It took another bid before the door finally opened. The software used to put all claims online today is the same as that used by the Scottish Parliament. The principle is the same here too: your claims are generally based on receipts. If you're out of pocket, you get to claim it back.
And there are more reforms on the way, ones that will inevitably touch things like the second home allowance that has almost become a dirty word to uttered only very quietly and within the confines of the Fees Office.
Sir Roger Jones' recommendations will be made public a week today. The man must feel ever so slightly like a striker facing an open goal. Who's going to argue with him when he has 2, 251, 968 Welsh voters on his side?
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~37~RS~)
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Lord Dafydd Elis-Thomas and chums at Cardiff Bay have learned their lessons well over the years, it is a shame the Freedom of Information Act was needed to confirm honesty, or otherwise.
But lets make that one less voter until the ink has dried and the words understood, there's much to much rushing around in the corridors of our principalities WAG.
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I wouldn't be too triumphalist about this. After all it is the English taxpayer that pays for most of this - and the Celts that currently run the country won't even allow us our own parliament !
Surely it is time for an independent England or at least out own assembly - no taxation without representation...
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#2
I'd vote for an English Parliament tomorrow. If you think you're hard done by, then come to live in Wales. Its been run by the English for 700 years, since it was conquered, occupied and subjugated. Then they tried to assimilate us, but we're still here. And don't say that was ancient history, they sent Redwood, Hague and a string of others to keep us in order.
If you had an English Parliament, then either England would become a sovereign nation state, or it would be a federal Parliament where some powers, say over defence and foreign affairs, were reserved to a UK Parliament. Either way, then Wales would also have to be either a self-governing soverign nation state or a member of a federal union, on the same terms as England and Scotland.
The basic problem with a federal solution, which even some Tories in Wales are beginning to tout around, is that it would be very unbalanced. The federal Parliament would be dominated by England, simply because of its size. Issues like defence and foreign affairs would become hot potatoes. The Scots, and I suspect the majority of us in Wales, wouldn't, for example, want to spend money on Trident, but we'd have to pay for it, since both Labour and Tory parties are in favour of it. Same goes for foreign imperialistic wars, such as Iraq and Afghanistan. I don't think it would work, do you?
Yes, your solution is best. Bring it on!
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Mathna:
#2.
There's no such thing as an English taxpayer, the people of Great Britain all pay the same taxes into the same pot. I will also remind you that English MP's make up wayyy more then 50 percent of the Westminister Parliament, why is your Member of Palriament not representing your interests? If English MP's had their constinuents interests at heart then England would have the same benefits as Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.
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What changes?The expenses are still sanctioned whether on the internet or not. What I'd like to see is the cost of advice,consultancies,staff,
corporate hospitality,jolly's,freebies,free bars and foreign visits from
each ministry and minister put on the internet and lets do it before they can bring in another ALCO to stop it.So lets start with the 'duchess' Jane Davidson? Climate Change Committee (£900 A DAY +EXPENSES(Jobseekers £60 a week).Thats an awful lot of carrier bags !!! If we were to elect competant politicians that could carry out their jobs without advice we could make £2B of savings without cutting public spending.The biggest
ever Trade and Cultural mission to leave these shores. How much does that
cost? Trip to Ryder Cup in Ireland how much inward investment did that bring? Welsh Business Offices in Australia,America,China,Hong Kong,India,
Italy,Japan,Korea,Benelux and Dubai minimum of three staff. Cost? Trade
fairs for 2009 in Paris,Sydney,Washington,San Diego,Monterray in old mexico, Johannesburg etc? For three million people? There should be loads of jobs? Where's the results?Tip of the iceberg? A millstone round our neck? And we pay for it all? I'm glad I'm not young anymore?
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2 I fully support the claims for an English Parliament, but English MPs already dominate the Westminster Parliament with well over 80% of total MPs. Scotland and Northern Ireland have representative parliaments with real powers, and it is only Wales which has a representative Assembly but without any real powers.
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Martha,
If we may have one, you can have one too. Learn from our mistakes as well as Westminster's and let us co-exist as equals in the unity of amity.
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"There's no such thing as an English taxpayer, the people of Great Britain all pay the same taxes into the same pot"
But how equally is that pot divided up?
An English person who pays tax is an "English taxpayer". I don't think the concept is that tricky. What Mathna, and I, object to is that Scottish and Welsh MPs can vote on issues that purely affect England but, due to devolution, English MPs (quite rightly) cannot vote on issues that purely affect Scotland or Wales as those issues are dealt with at the Welsh Assembly / Scottish Parliament level.
If we're all paying into the same pot, who's paying for (amongst other things) free prescriptions in Wales? Not the Welsh, that's for sure. Time for England to get a parliament and independence and stop supporting Wales and Scotland. Let's see how well you do on your own.
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#8
'Time for England to get a parliament and independence..'
Write to your MP immediately!
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So the separatists are rushing to find an answer to the "English Question", it must because the fear of democracy returning to Wales with the Conservative Party, or is they fear the tap of largess being turned to off.
No matter, the clues are all around, and they are being spoken by the Unionists, tighten your belts, the taxpayers and families east of Offa's Dyke have become tired of the constant drip of funds needed in Birmingham being wasted by the Welsh Nationalists.
I remember one of the Nationalist grunts writing "let the English solve their own questions", stupid words coming home to roost.
#2 and #8, Ignore #7, there is no friendship in that scurrilous camp, amity needs honesty.
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English independence now, let them have a semi half witted assembly that has to ask permission to do the simplest things....
Perhaps if politicians in the bay didn't have to spend all their time plotting on how to get the real power devolved so they could make a difference they might actually do some good!!!
I love how the unionists bang on about what is best for the welsh people whilst simulaneously advocating the all conquering imperialistic mentality.
I believe what's best for the welsh people is to be given the tools to run our own country on a level playing field and to be able to enact the required legislature to compete with England. We are a smaller country and therefore have smaller requirements.
A common defence agreement where if invaded we assist each other will leave the British Isle adequately protected without the expense of invading the rest of the world willy nilly.
Outside of that, standing up, being counted and negotiating our future in the EU is enough. The Irish successfully crippled the EU's Lisbon Treaty without the clout that the UK Government has. How? They knew they were getting short changed, the Government offered a referendum and they responded in their interest.
Democracy at work!
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8,
Thanks for your support. We'll do just fine.
We'll have to borrow money of course, but we'll borrow less than the UK does and we'll improve our country. We'll become just like the majority of countries in the world who borrow to survive and pay back when they have an excess.
I think we'll find our costs per person decrease when we take the excessives of imperial england out of the question.
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#10 TheStonemason wrote:
"..the clues are all around, and they are being spoken by the Unionists, tighten your belts, the taxpayers and families east of Offa's Dyke have become tired of the constant drip of funds needed in Birmingham being wasted by the Welsh Nationalists."
The good citizens of Birmingham, (and a few other cities east of Offa's Dyke) are getting the GUSH (not the drip) of water from Wales with which to sate their thirst in this hot weather, to shower the dust from England's central plain off their sweaty bodies, to swill their soiled underwear and crockery in their washing machines and dishwashers, and to keep their industries earning money and keep people employed.
'Remember Tryweryn' when every one of Wales' MPs, from all three parties, voted against the flooding of Capel Celyn to provide water for Liverpool Corporation. It made not one whit of difference. What England wants, England gets, be it Scottish oil or Welsh water. Liverpool now sells its surplus water at a profit!
The current natural resource to be exploited in Wales for the UK's benefit is wind, to meet the UK's obligations under the various international agreements its made and EU targets. What it actually means is a vastly disproportionate number of massive 400 feet high wind turbines built all over Wales and Scotland, blighting a beautiful landscape for at least 25 years, and the environment permanently. Far fewer are being built east of Offa's Dyke and south of Hadrian's Wall.
Without Wales' water, England would be in deep trouble. Desalination plants would be impracticable, as would shipping it in by tanker.. its far too bulky and heavy. According to Stonemason, and his fellow right-wing Tories, Wales has nothing going for it. Good for nothing more than handouts. That's patently untrue.
If we are such a burden to our English neighbours, Stonemason, why do you think they haven't they cut the ties long since?
The answer's simple, because it would be their loss and our gain. Same goes for Scotland.
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8 Yotty. Thanks for your contribution and we need more english people to contribute and tell the Welsh NATS SOME HOME TRUTHS.I can assure you that the vast majority of welsh people (Particularly those whole live nearest to england) have no truck with NATS and fellow travellers in mejia and we fight our corner. Not only do you support us with taxes through Barnett formula,plus your taxes paid to Europe which comes back to wales (To build white elephants),you also give us greater representation in Parliament than we deserve on strict numbers and a fat lot of thanks you get. Quite frankly if I was english and the abuse you get from your celtic neighbours I'd tell em to "sling their hooks" and manage on their own.
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Snoutsintrough you probably are english, or english wannabe from monmouthshire...build a bridge my son
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Wales has much going for it, unfortunately it is constantly dragged into the gutters by those who benefit from undermining the little people, the people that matter. If the separatists had half a brain to share our little corner of Britain would now be the powerhouse of the nation, with good jobs that would demand good education, instead we have a minority looking back towards the 13th century.
The ties written about at #13 are the familial ties held throughout the United Kingdom for each other, wear green and discover how the men and women who guard the Nationalist whilst they sleep, work together no matter where they come from, strength through teamwork, a Union.
The resources of Britain are shared by all, to speak of resources that the Nationalists wish to keep West of Offa's Dyke is slapping the faces of the taxpayers, the 60 million, who constantly give more than they receive, until recently without complaint.
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7. Politicians are not masters of everything and so of course need advice.
8. Plaid and SNP MPs do not vote on English only legislation that has no effect on Wales/Scotland.
14. Spoken like a true narrow nationalist. No change there then.
I think that Lord Ell had every right to sound smug on the radio this morning, as for years he has had to put up with pompous clots from Westminster going on and on and on about the 'mother of Parliaments'.
It's a good day for Welsh democracy and it even got the BBC UK web page to give Betsan's blog a plug-now that is recognition!
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#16
Its not all one way, as you British nationalists are continually harping about, Stonemason.
We're fed up of hearing about Barnett. Its a blight. Let's get paid for the wind, the water, the coal, etc and let's get shot of Trident, and the armed forces who fight unnecessary wars (killing a vast number of innocent people while they're at it) and who give the people of these islands a stnking reputation as an imperialist bully. Wales doesn't need any of them to guard us. Would we need two enormous aircraft carriers?Most countries our size don't try to push others about. The UK's name is mud in the Middle East and most of the developing world. It has a sad military history. We haven't been told about the worst bits, because the media here is jingoistic, particularly the right wing press... all of it is right wing.
Oh yes, we would be far better off running our own affairs.
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#18 wrote .....
Oh yes, we would be far better off running our own affairs.
We have a democracy, put it to the people, just as you put it the commentators here.
A simple question, For the Union or Not for the Union. I'll support your petition, Adam Price and chums would support your petition, how many others is the question only answerable at the ballot box.
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Betsan said
It was only a few years ago that Freedom of Information bids to the Assembly enquiring about AMs' expenses were turned down. Openness? What openness?
YES what Openness?
I have received confirmation of my request under the Freedom of Information Act for a copy of the report commissioned by the Deputy First Minister concerning the building of roads on which he based important decisions which affect our lives which he kept secret from us and the Finance Committee.
Betsan also said
But hang on a minute. Just before we get too carried away with our virtue here in Wales - as though there's something in the water that makes Cardiff Bay more virtuous than Westminster
I must ask a similar question are the devolutionists or separatists any more virtuous than those who want things to stay as they are? Do we expect something better from people who portray themselves as being powerless to govern their own country? So lets see what his reasons are for keeping it a secret, better still lets see what the report says.
It gets worse
I have also served the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales known as HEFCW an unelected and unaccountable QUANGO for a copy of the Haines Watts report into the finances of the University of Wales Lampeter.
They have just confirmed following a complaint that in my opinion they failed to apply or pass the public interest test in telling us what went wrong and what was done about it. So it now goes to the Information Commissioner.
They say
Re: Section 36 release of this information would or would be likely to, inhibit:
b (i) the free and frank provision of advice, or
(ii) the free and frank exchange of views for the purposes of deliberation, or
(c) would otherwise prejudice, or would be likely otherwise to prejudice, the effective conduct of public affairs
Are they having a laugh? They have also been served to provide details of how much its costing to prop up Lampeter up under an emergency fund of our money. What did dear old Margaret say about lame ducks?
In other words if we knew what was happening we would all be demanding an inquiry. Thats why we have have been excluded from any consultation and are banned by law from being able to complain.
They also say
(Section 43) applied under the FoI Act, that disclosure of this Report:
(2) would, or would be likely to, prejudice the commercial interests of any person (including the public authority holding it).
This I can understand as disclosure of MPs and AMs expenses did untold damage to their commercial interests, and left them unable to continue to employ members of their family for doing nothing.
Fortunately we not only have the Information Commissioner but the Charity Commission which is also totally independent of government. Under the Charity Act 2006 they will regulate Welsh Universities later this year. English Universities will of course be regulated by the Higher Education Funding Council for England because HEFCW is not up to the job. The Charity Commission will need a copy of the Haines Watts report in order to investigate some very serious concerns and HEFCW are going to be forced to hand it over.
Looks like these sorts of issues and subsequent legal battles are set to run on for a while and the longer it goes on the more damage is going to be done. But it also means the more likely we are to get much needed reform and that magic word OPENNESS.
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http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmhansrd/vo051123/halltext/51123h03.htm
There are also Welsh embassies all over the worldor, rather, in the more exotic parts of the world[Interruption.] I am happy to give way to anyone who wants to ask me about that. I have tried to find out the costs of the embassies. I know that they run into millions; the embassy in New York is in the Chrysler building. I am unable to give a definitive figure because, despite my asking a series of written questions on it, the Minister has not been able to give me a proper cost.
Does anyone know the costs of these Welsh embassies located in the most prestigious locations in the World's finest cities?
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#21 Jack
[Interruption]
Does anyone know how much its costing the Welsh taxpayer to fund the war in Afghanistan, every DAY?
Does anyone know how many innocent Afghans - men, women, children and babies - are being killed daily by UK forces and their US allies with aerial bombardment of villages and compounds?
What is the cost in pounds sterling for each life lost, be it military or civilian, in that unwinnable conflict since it commenced in 2003?
How much have Haliburton and other US armaments companies and British defence contractors been paid by the MoD since 2003 during the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan?
To what extent have British forces and the security services, such as MI6, been involved or complicit in torture and extraordinary rendition since Tony Blair (and Brown) came to office in 1997?
How much has the massive expansion of the UK security services cost the individual Welsh taxpayer, due to the increased security threat resulting from the UK's support, military or otherwise, for the US' foreign policies in the Middle East and elsewhere? (MI5 and MI6 have more than doubled in size. Not even the House of Commons has a right to know exactly what they get up to).
What was the total number of lives lost (civilian and military) in the Iraq War, and how much has it cost each Welsh taxpayer?
How about sending in a FoI request for these questions Jack? Let us know the response you get.
Perhaps you could also write the Information Commissioner to ask how the citizens of Wales are going to be protected from arbitrary and uncontrolled UK government use of individual data compulsorily gathered for the National Identity Register, as well as the risk of data being lost, sold or stolen?
And how much is it going to cost each and every one of us in Wales in purely monetary terms, as opposed to the infringement of our individual liberties and rights?
In a self-governing Wales, many of these costs, in money and lives could have been avoided. The money and the efforts spent on destruction would be better spent making Wales and the rest of the world a better place in which to live. Its just a matter of priorities.
Panorama was interesting this evening. Nice to see Alex performing well.
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Bryn_Teilo,
what you nationalists with your PROPER Welsh names and heritages cannot seem to understand, is there are loads of folk living within Wales, who can only be described as of British stock. Are you like our esteemed First minister, who can trace his proper Welsh linage back to the Rebbecca riots?
I'm an English speaking Brit from once English Monmouthshire, who detests Rhodri Morgan with the same intensity as you proper Welsh types detest John Redwood.
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I don't detest anyone, Jack.
One-third of Wales' population of three million, apparently, weren't born here. That is a massive population influx. Not equalled anywhere else in these islands.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'British stock'. I'm not quite sure what 'British' means or stands for or represents. I was born in Wales and I live here. I think of myself as Welsh. That for me is my nationality and the only nationality I want. I am a UK citizen, but not by choice. I don't see that as 'nationality' but as some sort of artifical construct, much as you might view 'European' nationality in the same way. If someone lives here and considers themselves to belong to Wales and have some kind of commitment to the country, even if they also have another culture that they belong to as well, then I'd say they have every right to be 'Welsh'. Its not exclusive
I don't know what you mean by 'proper' Welsh, either. I consider myself to be Welsh, as I'm not French, Chinese, English or Maltese etc. I happen to be Welsh-speaking, but that like my 'nationality' was an accident of birth. I doubt if I would have taken the trouble to learn it, and that's an honest answer, because it takes a lot of time and effort to do so. I admire, greatly, those who have taken the trouble so to do.
Many weren't born in Wales but have migrated here and can now speak Welsh better than I can. I didn't want to study it at school and gave it up as soon as I possibly could. I remember the Language coming near to extinction in the 60s, and many predicted it would be gone well before the millennium.
The late primary and secondary schooling I received was almost entirely in the medium of English, and influences and attitudes in the 50s and 60s, even in the family, school, the radio and tv etc were very anti-Welsh... best thing a sensible person could do would be to get an English education and get out of Wales. Make a life for oneself. We were conditioned to believe that English, England and British were best, and that Wales was essentially a third rate place to live in. No future here, so to speak.
By today I realise that it is not so, although there are vestiges of those attitudes to be found, particularly on this blog. People are much more enlightened about the value of 'difference' in Language and culture, and what makes us individuals and as a people. Without these things we are nothing.
I've never tried tracing my ancestors. They may well have come from anywhere. I don't particularly care about that.
What I do care about is the way that Wales has been badly governed as part of the UK. It has done badly for as long as I can remember. Twice qualified for EU Objective One funding as one of the poorest parts of Europe (that's decided on objective criteria, ie facts on living standards, incomes, unemployment, single parent families etc). There has been little or no investment in the country's infrastructure (true of the entire UK as well but worse in Wales) - its roads, railways, hospitals and schools. Just visit any main railway station and see for yourself, for example. It takes longer to travel to Paddington from Wales today than it did 40 years ago.
There, its getting late and its far too warm to sit here doing this. Many evenings I prefer to have a few pints.
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Re 23
There's telling us!
Why don't we all just let the British nationalists stew in their paranoia on this blog, and get on with our lives and enjoy our New Wales? A Wales, by evidence of the hate and fear in their messages that must be getting that much nearer indepedence every day.
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yottskry:
#8.
"But how equally is that pot divided up?"
Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales receive a static amount. The English regions receive varying rates, London receives the most, even compared to Scotland.
"An English person who pays tax is an "English taxpayer". I don't think the concept is that tricky."
It does not exist. The system does not divide on the grounds of nationality, to the system we are all British taxpayers, but I will agree. How we divide that pot is far more important, but how? Should each country/region in the United Kingdom be responsible for their own financial state and send Westminister a sum of money for national purposes? Will we divide based on population regardless of the wealth generated per country/region?
"What Mathna, and I, object to is that Scottish and Welsh MPs can vote on issues that purely affect England but, due to devolution, English MPs (quite rightly) cannot vote on issues that purely affect Scotland or Wales as those issues are dealt with at the Welsh Assembly / Scottish Parliament level."
This is a different issue altogether. England should be safe from Scottish and Welsh MP's, afterall England sends far more MP's to Westminster then Scotland and Wales put together. If your current MP are not representing you I would suggest you vote differently, but I suspect England to bring the Conservatives back into power, but even they have not found a financial solution that can appeal to Scotland and England at the same time. In fact Scots MP's will still be able to vote on English matter, but unable to change the bill as it processes through Parliament.
"If we're all paying into the same pot, who's paying for (amongst other things) free prescriptions in Wales? Not the Welsh, that's for sure. Time for England to get a parliament and independence and stop supporting Wales and Scotland. Let's see how well you do on your own."
I have never met someone who has spoke down their own country before, but with all due respect, what has England got that neither Wales and Scotland has? In health English waiting times are lower then Scotlands and Wales. In justice, England has more money to spend then other parts, devolution brought differences and we all decided our own priorities.
It's disappointing that you lash out against Scotland and Wales. It's not our fault, or problem. England has the power to vote in individuals who can bring independence to England, or at least a Parliament. However at the end of the day despite what may happen, Scotland and Wales will always be your neighbours. Instead of talking down your neighbours, why not talk them up instead and bring back the confidence that New Labour have destroyed over the years?
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On the Subject of Expenses
The reason why unlike its English counterpart the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales (HEFCW) will not regulate Welsh Universities stems from their claim to enforce financial regulation.
So I complained to HEFCW that a certain Higher Education Institution was in breach of guidelines published by the Department of Trade and Industry (DTI) with regard to the Companies Act 2005.
The reply from HEFCW was that DTI regulations were a matter for them!
They failed to realise that they are also a matter for the Charity Commission who also refer to the same guidelines with regard to members of University Councils which is a charitable company and guess what? Yes thats right EXPENSES
So its now down to the Charity Commission and the Information Commissioner to take the lid off and they are going to make MPs and AMs look like Saints.
You may well ask about regulation, well there is a Memorandum of Understanding between HEFCW and the Welsh Assembly Government that goes something like this.
We the Welsh Assembly Government will ban the serfs from being able to complain and take away the power of the Auditor General for Wales to ensure value for money and God forbid to intervene and take over a failing University for financial mismanagement as he was able to do under the Local Government Act 2000.
You (HEFCW) just make sure that nothing gets into the media that is going to make the Assembly look ineffectual or jeopardise use getting more power. Then we will not take you into public ownership as we have done with other QUANGOs and you can keep your jobs.
Now that MPs and AMs have to answer for their expenses perhaps they might bring an end to the public service gravy train. They can start by telling us the truth about what is really going on and why we have had to bail out Welsh Higher Education and why those responsible for failure have been rewarded with vast amounts of our money.
Under the Charity Act 2006 Universities have to pass the Public Benefit Test in offering something to the disadvantaged. Perhaps we can apply a similar test to MPs and AMs with regard to the electorate.
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10
14
20
27
Bold type and capital letters...again.
Screaming tantrums in the face of logic.
Oh dear!
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#28
I find the use of bold and italics irritating, certainly their excessive use on these blogs. They do not improve readability, hence my decision not to adopt them.
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Using bold or capitals to make an occasional and critical point is Ok - but certain posters overdo it and it loses any meaning.
And just what is the point of capitalising NATS ??
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#28 The world is full of patronising trick cyclists who need to heal themselves! Expressing anger is good for you, besides it is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.
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#30 Using bold or capitals to make an occasional and critical point is Ok
Point made nicely and taken
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I think I may have discovered why Welsh Assembly Members of all political parties want more power for themselves. Aside from the expense claims which include the generous second home allowances for those who live within easy commuting distance of Cardiff Bay, there are the attractive taxpayer-funded perks of the job, such hire cars, ministerial cars and jaunts to New Delhi, Bucharest, Basle, Berlin, Boston, Dubai, Johannesburg, Madrid, and Washington.
Disclosure under the Freedom of Information Act has revealed that, the cost of Air Travel undertaken for the period May 07 - March 08 by Assembly Members totals £24,873.60. Bearing in mind that foreign affairs are not a devolved matter, is this expenditure justifiable?
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THE United Kingdom is in danger of disintegration and should embrace a federal structure of government and create individual parliaments in each nation, Conservative AM David Melding declares in a major book published today.
He envisages a new constitutional settlement which could cut the number of MPs at Westminster to 300 and officially recognise the sovereignty over domestic issues of the parliaments of Wales, England, Scotland and Northern Ireland.
Entitled Will Britain Survive Beyond 2020?, the book presents the United Kingdom as a state in urgent need of reform.
He writes: Unionists must take seriously the possibility that the British state might fragment within the next 20 years. Only when that risk is acknowledged can it be managed and mitigated.
Whatever happens, by acknowledging the fragility of Britain, unionists can at least prevent its dissolution by stealth or neglect.
This stark warning to the unionists of different parties is balanced with a vision of a rejuvenated Britain.
He writes: Today, I believe that the home nations should have their political sovereignty properly recognised; but I want these same sovereign nations to recommit themselves to the British state, and I believe that a new and fuller British nationalism will then flourish.
The South Wales Central AM wants to ignite both debate and excitement about the opportunity to shape the future of Britain.
He told the Western Mail: I think British political history has been full of shocks and surprises but there has been an underlying theme that the more liberal option is usually chosen.
Im excited. I think there is a great job of work to do.
Mr Meldings vision comes at a time when Conservative policy on the future of devolution is unclear.
It is not yet known whether the Tory manifesto will contain a pledge to grant a referendum on new powers for the Assembly if this is requested by a majority of AMs.
As a standard bearer for what he describes as a reformed Tory Unionism, he states that the status quo cannot continue: The British constitution needs to be balanced so that the rights and privileges of the home nations within the UK receive equal recognition. The old way of doing this, through participation in a single and absolutely sovereign parliament, stands utterly obsolete.
Insisting that his vision is not far-fetched, he points to the revolution which has already taken place: Those who dismiss federalism as fanciful fail to appreciate that the United Kingdom has already reached functional federalism and, in a sense, constitutional theory needs to catch up with political practice. Both the Scottish parliament and Northern Irelands Assembly are federal institutions, and the overwhelming likelihood is that the National Assembly for Wales will soon follow soon.
Technically, Westminster remains the sovereign institution in the UK but Mr Melding argues it is inconceivable MPs could roll back devolution.
He writes: Could the Scottish Parliament be abolished at the whim of Westminster? Of course not. The devolved institutions could only be dissolved at the cost of a constitutional crisis.
Mr Melding, the Assemblys Shadow Economic Development Minister, also takes seriously the prospect of an independent Wales.
He does not believe the economic challenges the fledging nation state would face are so daunting it would not be brought to birth.
In the longer term, it is impossible to say whether an independent Wales would be better or worse off economically than if it had remained part of Britain, he writes. It would depend on the quality of government policy and the entrepreneurship of the people... Even if the economic cost of Welsh independence is considered likely to be substantial and long lasting, this is hardly justification for denying the feasibility of independence. All it does establish is that independence would carry a significant economic cost.
Wales would not be the first nation to consider independence worth the price.
Arguing that federalism will safeguard the United Kingdom, he writes: It is no accident that the SNP and Plaid Cymru have focused on the establishment of national parliaments and assiduously avoid any endorsement of federalism. Formal federalism would confirm the sovereignty of the devolved institutions as well as that of Westminster.
Federalism offers sovereign rights to Scotland and Wales without breaking up the British state. It is therefore a vehicle for a reformed unionism something recognised and perhaps feared by Celtic nationalists.
Rejecting the argument that federalism will result in many more politicians and civil servants, he writes: The aim of federalism is to divide not multiply governmental functions... Should Westminster evolve into the United Kingdoms federal parliament it could cut back to 300 or so members without inhibiting the execution of its functions.
Mr Melding characterises the Conservatives pre-1999 record in Wales as failure flecked with intimations of promise.
As someone who voted No in the 1997 referendum, he has been on his own journey to the point where he has embraced Wales own political sovereignty.
He believes it is possible to be committed to the good of a Welsh nation which chooses to be part of a federal Britain, arguing that all unionists in Wales should be patriotic Welsh nationalists.
Ultimately, he writes, the future of Britain will be decided by its people: The UK will survive as a political association only if the people of Britain make an active choice that it should do so. The possibility of fragmentation is merely the dark side (to unionists) of this existential choice.
David Davies, Conservative MP for Monmouth a former Assembly Member and a leading devo-sceptic said issues such as Welsh MPs voting on England-only legislation had to be addressed.
He said: David is right to say we now have a constitutional problem that needs to be confronted but that problem will only be increased by giving further powers to the Welsh Assembly, which is a policy I think David supports, so I will be interested to read Davids book and see how he overcomes that paradox.
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Go! Go! Bryn and Co!
I understand why you blog on Brian , you're having the same arguments on here!
But you're winning!
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Actually Bryn and co, you will be up against the " impartial " BBC.
I have just watched the BBC lunchtime news and the information peddled thereon.
According to the BBC Scots are reluctant to vote for independence , it says so in their poll,
B: The poll was conducted for BBC Scotland by ICM. They interviewed 1010 people between 22 and 24 June.
Does'nt tell you from whence they dug up the measly one thousand and ten folk, I could dig up , with NO effort at all 1010 folk to slant the polling a different direction.
I am no great believer in polls , but when BBC news presents feeble results as fact then I object most strongly.
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36 - ICM and the various polling companies use a well-developed methodology to select random representative polling samples, and to then 'normalise' the data to ensure that is a srepresentative as possible. Even then there is a recognised margin of error, which IIRC is +/-3% on a sample of 1000.
The point of this is that the numbers quoted will be a fair estimate and will not be slanted as you suggest.
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#34 IMHO the point that needs to be addressed is that there is now so much manipulation on both sides of the more powers argument that the whole political process is in danger of breaking down.
#37 Good point on the validity of the poll but we need a ballot that is going to resolve these issues and encourage more open government.
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I agree that we need a vote. Me I'd like the independence option just to gauge the true support. How would you do it Neocrom? Maybe 5 options:
Independence
Fiscal Powers ar per Calman
Govt of Wales Act powers
As we are
Scrap it
Choose in order of preference and lowest drops out first?
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#34 dai7900
I listened to David Melding on The Politics Show (Wales) last Sunday.
Clearly there is some new thinking among Welsh Conservatives, which must be welcomed. The LibDems have been very quiet about their federal policy of late, partly I think because the Scottish situation has provided them with a dilemma.
The state of the parties might be summed up as:
Plaid - for outright self-determination. Wales a sovereign nation state and a full member of the EU and UN. Plaid also willing to campaign for further devolution in the meantime.
Labour - a two-faced party, a veritable Janus, consisting of Janusians. I could think of another word for it which doesn't begin with 'J'. Some, if not most, of its AMs support legislative devolution, whilst many of its MPs from Wales are vehemently opposed. I believe that their opposition is based on self-interest because they are likely to lose many of their seats if it happens. The way that they have hindered every legislative competence order is clear evidence of that as far as I'm concerned. The UK Labour party is essentially centrist. Its a hangover from the principles of international socialism they inherited from the early days, before they completely lost touch with anything they ever stood for.
The Welsh Conservatives - a party that has changed its stance on Welsh devolution, from a position of outright opposition, to support for the current settlement, and some even supporting legislative devolution. I have come to respect Nick Bourne. The Tories are creating a new image for themselves in Wales. That is to be welcomed greatly. Melding's contribution to the debate is a positive one. A native of Neath and educated there, he knows the sentiments of the people of Wales. He makes some perceptive and intelligent points. As yet we don't know the stance of Cameron and the UK Conservatives. I'm wary of them, because of the way they treated Wales under Thatcher and Major. The ghost of Redwood isn't far away
The LibDems - they support a federal solution within the UK, but little is heard from them about their policy. They support more devolution, but again we don't often hear them speak out about it.
If the Labour Party continues with its ambivalent attitude to devolution in Wales, it could see itself totally eclipsed here. Under Blair and Brown its turned its back on its core supporters - ordinary working folk, and in the very countries which provided the springboard for it to govern the UK - Wales and Scotland. It could face complete annihilation in both countries - and were it to happen it would be well-deserved. Rhodri Morgan has alluded to the danger of Labour being seen as anti-Welsh.
We are almost certain to see a Cameron-led Tory government next year. I see Labour in the wilderness for at least a decade, even if it survives. Once its historic core supporters find another place to put their X, then Labour is dead and gone. The dinosaurs in the party at Westminster should be ruminating on that prospect as they lie awake at night.
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39
Nice idea: the one that falls off the bottom gets banned from this blog!
Or would that make things quiet, too quiet?
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As many bloggers of a nationalist persuasion have pointed out to me, and I accept their criticism, I do not have a great knowledge of Welsh history, but I do have a little knowledge of British history. It was not a major part of my degree but when my studies first began we were given certain important precepts:
(1) The historian's first task, when writing of any period is to read as many primary texts and essential secondary texts as possible before putting pen to paper.
(2) You must then express your thought objectively and try with all your might to suppress subjectivity.
(3) Never judge people of a past age by the values of today.
That last precept, the tutor said was the most important for us to hold to.
Reading Betsan Powys' blogs and the responses to them from certain bloggers leads me to the conclusion that Welsh Nationalist historians must have bunked off college on the day those universal precepts were taught.
Wales has no more been singled out for persecution in all its forms, than any other region of Britain. All regions of Britain have had it tough throughout past ages. And brave men and women from all walks of life and from all areas of Britain have fought against tyrants and have won for us the freedoms we enjoy today.
But Welsh nationalist bloggers would have you believe that only they have been especially oppressed. It gives them a superior sense of virtue which they then use for their own divisive political ends.
Undemocratic devolution in Wales has given an unearned boost to them and a consequence of that boost is beginning to create divisions in a society which in culture and language is homogeneous.
If anyone is being oppressed today it is the generous English taxpayer that via the Barnett Formula has helped and still helps to keep alive that parasitic, extra tier of unnecessary government in Cardiff Bay.
If a referendum is needed in Wales it should be about the undemocratic inception of the Assembly and its continuation. Its demise would be to the benefit of the English and Welsh taxpayers. The only losers would be the Nationalists.
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Slanting questions in polls is a recognised method of getting the results that you want, even ICM polls for the BBC are not above slanting!
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At #34 dai7900 wrote of Conservative AM David Melding but chose to omit .....
It is no accident that the SNP and Plaid Cymru have focused on the establishment of national parliaments and assiduously avoid any endorsement of federalism. Formal federalism would confirm the sovereignty of the devolved institutions as well as that of Westminster. Federalism offers sovereign rights to Scotland and Wales without breaking up the British state. It is therefore a vehicle for a reformed unionism something recognised and perhaps feared by Celtic nationalists.
The aim of federalism is to divide not multiply governmental functions... Should Westminster evolve into the United Kingdoms federal parliament it could cut back to 300 or so members without inhibiting the execution of its functions.
Could this be the way forward that David William Donald Cameron our future PM alludes to when he speaks of revisiting the whole question of devolution, very few of the electorate support the aspirations of Plaid or the SNP, though many consider local governance a better option for the future, it could be the words of David Melding will catch the imagination of the majority, a move that satisfies the need for local accountability without the spectre of the separatists.
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#43
I agree, but pushing through constitutional legislation on a wafer thin winning margin is a far greater democratic sin.
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#40
Bryn_Teilo - with your continual references to John Redwood you are beginning to sound like Squealer the right hand pig of Napoleon who constantly threatened the farm yard animals with the return of Mr Jones (George Orwell's Animal Farm). It's a little bit hackneyed old bean.
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#43
This is the second attempt to reply to your post, but here goes:
I agree with your "slanting" observation, but as far as I'm concerned it is a far greater sin to push through constitutional changing legislation on a wafer thin winning margin.
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#44
A federal solution outwardly sounds attractive, until the reality is examined.
Which areas would be reserved for the UK Parliament?
Its usually foreign affairs and defence but there would have to be central control of money supply and currency, as it would make no sense for member states of the union to have different currencies. There would therefore have to be a central bank. It should be called the 'Bank of the United Kingdom' or some such, as 'Bank of England' really wouldn't be acceptable to the other nations. The existence of such an institution and the accompanying controls it and a central Treasury would have, might place a straightjacket on the economic development of all four constituent states. The largest, England would dominate its policy considerations and there would be problems with wealth inequalities as a result - as there is now. I'm no economist, so I don't know if there could be solutions to these issues.
The real thorny problems lie with foreign affairs and defence. There are the issues such as Trident, foreign wars and large armed forces, which I instinctively feel Wales and Scotland would differ fundamentally with political opinion in England, particularly among the Tories. Those couldn't be reconciled. The federal parliament would have an English majority which could outvote all three other states. Would a right of veto work? For example, Scotland and Wales veto the renewal of Trident, when majority opinion in England is in favour? That would mean the minority dictating to the majority.
Regrettably, because of the great inbalance in size among the four nations, I really think that a federation can't work. If there were 50 states, as in the US, of varying sized states, then it might work. Of course, the US states, although vastly different, were never nations with the historic differences existing here.
I think its far better that the four nations govern themselves, but work together in a similar way as the Benelux countries did for decades, and within the EU. The people of these islands would get on together far better than they do now. It would engender far more respect and tolerance each for the other.
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#46 Fitz
Thanks for the history lesson. Its a pity it was only a subsidiary subject in your degree, else you might have become a history teacher and bored the kids to death.
If parts other than Wales in these islands have fared badly under English or British rule, it is no reason for us here to disregard the injustices we and our forebears have similarly suffered, and continue to suffer. The Scots and the Irish are quite capable of speaking for themselves, probably more effectively than we in Wales can do and have done. Our suffering does not diminish theirs, nor the converse.
England has attempted to dominate these islands for centuries, from the conquest of Wales to the Scottish clearances and the subjugation of Irish rebellions. It still dominates the other nations simply because of its size, if nothing else. So your contention that we think we've been particularly hard done by is incorrect. Cite particular examples if you can find them, in my past comments, of unfavourable comparisons between Wales, Scotland and Ireland, or any particular English region.
You evidently didn't get as far as the real task of the historian in your studies, which is not only to study and analyse the primary and secondary sources available, using the trained historian's skills to identify and allow for bias, inconsistency and omission, etc, but to reach balanced conclusions on that evidence.
On you own admission you know little of the history of Wales. Therefore if you wish to remark on the comments of those who do know a little more than yourself, it might be wise to do some more reading on the subject. I could recommend a few texts if you like.
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#48
It works in Germany with North Rhine-Westphalia having 18 million population accompanied by Hesse having 6 million, Schleswig-Holstein just under 3 million and Mecklenburg-Vorpommern having a population of 1 and three-quarter million. There would need to be 3 or more devolved institutions east of Offa's Dyke, and bob's your uncle. It wouldn't matter if it took 20 years or more to achieve such an objective, as long as no-one is hurt in the process, I don't include hurt feelings.
It is presumptuous of you to suggest the electorate of a Federal Wales would not agree with the other elements, Scotland also; Plaid and the SNP are not even a political majorities in their respective Assembly/Scottish Parliament.
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Usual nonsense from William Fitz. Devolution in Wales isn't undemocratic.it was voted for in a referendum in 1997. Wales isn't culturally homogenous, it has two languages.
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#50
I wasn't being presumptuous, just giving my opinion, that it would be difficult to reconcile significant federal policy issues. I don't think those are based on Plaid/SNP policies, simply that the Tories' support base is largely in England, and historically its been the party that supports 'defence' (in the wider sense) and nuclear deterrence. A significant number of Labour MP's do not support it, particularly those from Scotland and Wales.
There's a much larger disparity between Egland's 50m, Scotland's 5m, Wales' 3m and NI's 1.5m population.
Do we take it that you now are less opposed to a federal solution? That would mean significantly greater powers for the members states of the Union. They would be 'sovereign' on all non-federal policy areas. Any member state would be empowered at any point to secede once it had fulfilled any obligations to the federation.
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46. At 8:27pm on 30 Jun 2009, WilliamFitz wrote:
Ah, the politics of fear, classic tactics. Now if you join Animal Farm and 1984 have we got a reasonable portrayal of Westminster and mainstream politics? You omitted the other things to be wary of regarding history - inconsistency & omission leading to suspicions of revisionism(after all the loser rarely survives to tell the tale). The really scary thing for the mainstream failures is Scotland has a minority nationalist government which is actually turning out to be reasonably competent. The Nats are loonies who will destroy the country - another myth debunked. the big one that I can't quite get my head around is if England pays so much for us, why they haven't got rid of us if we're such a massive drain on their resources?
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#52
My opposition has consistently been to the destruction of the United Kingdom and its constitution, particularly the unanswered "English question", in particular I oppose Plaid Cymru as the party of the past.
A democratically formulated federal Britain would be acceptable to most I believe, how could it be otherwise, although I do not see the need for a sprint, better to get it right over a generation. Looking at the successful federal solutions there is little movement to secession, except in Canada when the French Canadians ask for a greater share of the tax revenues. There is more to be gained from unity than disunity.
You wrote of "significantly greater powers", I see "significantly greater responsibilities" for all federal components, unfortunately at Cardiff Bay ............
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#54 TheStonemason
Of course I agree, 'significantly greater powers' implies 'significantly greater responsibilities'. That's inevitable. A self-governing Wales would have to 'carry the can' for the mistakes its government made. That's the real world. It would conversely reap the benefits of efficient and competent government, which have been sadly lacking in the UK.
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#53 spartans11
Welcome, and thanks for your comments. You make an excellent point in your final sentence:
'..another myth debunked. the big one that I can't quite get my head around is if England pays so much for us, why they haven't got rid of us if we're such a massive drain on their resources?'
The same applies to Wales.
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While my personal preference is full Independence, I would probably accept a genuine federal solution, providing that Wales was truly sovereign in respect of its internal affairs, and only limited powers, relating to say Defence and Foreign Affairs, were pooled at a UK level.
What is unacceptable to me is where we are given very limited powers but have to jump through hoops to improve this, but at the same time these powers can be removed at the whim of a Westminster government. This arrangement is not only unacceptable, it is inherently unstable.
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#57 - penddu - I agree with you that independence is the preferred option - but federalilsm has a great deal going for it in a UK context, more so in an EU context.
Federlaism inthe UK means that Scotland Northern Ireland, England and Wales would have a freedom to govern their own affairs and that defence issues and foreign policy are decided on an UK basis by agreement. A war being proposed by one constituent federal partner could be rejected or vetoed by the other partners.
Similarly the federal arm of the Uk executive would have to be headed by an elected representative.
The optiond for federalism within the Eu are even more interesting, but a different thread.
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#51
Dai7900
Here's another piece of nonsense for you to comment on: if the various surveys of major British cities are anything to go by you do not have a uniformity of two languages in Wales but a multiplicity of languages.
In the Newport/Cardiff area it is estimated that there are more than fifty languages spoken. And I would hazard a guess and contend that in Newport there are more people speaking one or other of the languages of the Indian sub-continent than speak Welsh. And it is only the Welsh language that is propped up by shed loads of taxpayer's money.
No homogeneity? Just take a walk around any British city and smell the Star Bucks, taste the burgers, shop in M&S, John Lewis etc. The cultural signs of homogeneity are abundant within British society.
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# 53
spartans11
No I don't agree with your contention. If you conflate Animal Farm and 1984 you have not got a reasonable description of the "Westminster and mainstream politics" you have what is a powerful condemnation of the undemocratic and murderous regime of Stalinist Russia.
Wouldn't you say that if we discount the "murderous" we have a reasonable description of the inception of the Assembly in Cardiff Bay?
And it is not the classic tactics of fear, it is a common place commentary on a text.
In the town halls around England, since devolution, there is growing unrest at the disproportionate contribution made by the English taxpayer to the Scots and the Welsh. And if the Barnett Formula were to be discontinued it would be a very rude wake up call for the Welsh.
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#49
Bryn_Teilo
What I can not really understand is how you and your fellow nationalists can talk of England as if it is something foreign, as if there is something of the "other" about it, when the signs of cultural homogeneity are abundant and everywhere.
The tenor of your post #49 is again dripping with this risible accusation that England and the English are solely responsible for the excesses that have happened in the past.
If and when there were excess of Empire or when they occurred in the homeland the Welsh, Irish and Scots were equally guilty of those crimes.
Scottish engineers were the spearhead of Empire. Welsh soldiers fought alongside their English, Scots and Irish under the umbrella and unifying term British. It has been estimated that over 50% of the British army under Wellington were Irish. So let's have little bit of fair play here. If you want an oppressor to thump, or frighten your children to bed, look for him amongst your own kind and leave us poor English alone.
You constantly imply that you (the Welsh) are separate from the cultural whole when patently you are not. Wales is not a country, has never been a country, either de jure or even de facto. Wales has shared a legal identity with England for over five hundred years.
How far should I go back to find a legal and separate identity to England? Five hundred years is a bl**dy long time.
You do not have your own legislature an essential requirement of an autonomous and independent country.
Thank you for the offer of reading matter but I much prefer literature and the Arts. And I do hope this hasnt been too boring for you.
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# 53 - William Fitz - "And if the Barnett Formula were to be discontinued it would be a very rude wake up call for the Welsh." - so it would be for all those town hall officails all over England if they had to pay a proper price for Welsh Water, or all the elctricity that they get for free at the moment from the surplus produced in Wales. And what would they do anyway? The worse they could do in reality would be to agree with the seperatists in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland - where then WilliamFitz?
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Free water! Free electricity! Can you give me a web address or telephone number. Come on now be sensible, the French own much of the water and much of the electricity supply in the UK.
In the modern world of business, as the credit crunch has shown us, there is an interconnectedness of business, finance, economics; and even, thanks to the internet a greater spread of ideas. And as you must be aware the language of the internet is English
Now we all know that Banana Republic is used as a derogatory description of a failed or Third World State. I think the same derogatory sense would be attached to an independent water based Welsh economy.
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Nice to see that William Fitz definition of culture centres around shopping!!!!
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62 WF - You may not consider Wales to be a separate country but you are totally disregarding history and current reality when arriving at your conclusion. By any accepted interpretation, Wales is a nation and a country, albeit a constituent country of a larger multination state, ie the UK. There are precedents for this - see the former USSR and Yugoslavia - which were artificial unstable creations, held together only by the dominant 'mother country' - England is our Russia.
And your assertion that we can not be a country because we dont have a legislature is ridiculous - this is just England saying you cant be a country because we wont let you!! Well that is changing, although not as fast as I would like - where would the enhanced Assembly leave your argument??
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64 - I like his examples of British culture - Starbucks and burgers - LMAO
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Re 61
Actually it has, you are an infernal bore; as well as developing into a ridiculous caricature of yourself.
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"A uniformity of two languages" William Fitz....shome mistake shurely...ROTFLMAO
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#65
The United Kingdom is not an artificial unstable creation, it has evolved into a great place to raise the next generation, an evolution that has taken upwards of 20,000 years, the only artificial component parts are those who would divide it without a thought for the people, I refer of course to Plaid and the SNP.
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#70 TheStonemason wrote:
"The United Kingdom is not an artificial unstable creation, it has evolved into a great place to raise the next generation, an evolution that has taken upwards of 20,000 years"
I've never heard such tommy rot in all my life. Which planet in the outer solar system were you brought up on Stonemason?
'The UK is a shambles. Discuss'
'Yes, politically, economically, socially and governmentally.' End of discussion.
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With a half full glass of excellent ale .....
Jim Murphy, Secretary of State for Scotland, said .....
We can maintain Scottishness in Britain and Britain gives us the opportunity to be more Scottish. Scots want identity not isolation. Being in Britain allows us to be Scottish. Frankly, we have the best of both worlds. The advantages of devolved government but the invaluable insurance policy of being part of a larger social and economic union - the United Kingdom.
One man's Tommy Rot is another man's inspiration.
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Re 72
So, Stonemason, all of a sudden you've become our nation's premier supporter of devolution - wonderful.
I'd like to know what ale you're drinking, and I'd like some myself. What a wonderful world!
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#73
Fursty Ferret tonight, I can recomend Tanglefoot, a little stronger, both brewed in Dorset.
I support the Conservative Party, Jim Murphy (Labour) used interesting words such as Being in Britain allows us to be Scottish. Frankly, we have the best of both worlds. Such expressions are coming thick and fast from all corners, except Plaid and SNP, the future is definitely the Union, and Oxford Blue.
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Re 74
As you're getting closer to our position, I won't argue with you tonight - after all, one sinner repenting ...
I had a camping holiday in Dorset a few years ago. Beautiful countryside, wonderful beer!
Very, very muggy in Ceredigion tonight - some Tanglefoot might help ...
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#74 Stonemason wrote:
'I support the Conservative Party..'
As if we'd never have guessed. Which wing of that extremist party do you subscribe to Stonemason?
The 'get us out of Europe, but let's not admit that's what we really want' lot together with 'we'll not surrender an inch to the turbulent Scots and Welsh' - or the new federal face of Conservatism in Wales, as represented by David Melding?
Will Melding be a positive influence among his colleagues? I hope so. It could mean the birth of a truly Welsh conservative party, which I think is necessary for democracy in Wales. It will make Labour the only party of devo-sceptics and expose them for what they really are. It will also force the pro-devolutionists among them to make their position clear.
I believe that ultra-British Unionism is a thing of the past. It lasted a couple of centuries, and its had its day. It hasn't worked. We're not 'British' first and foremost, if at all, particularly in the smaller nations of these islands.
I had a conversation with three teenage girls on the bus today who were sitting beside me (they were seventeen). Two were from a local south Wales suburban community and the third had recently, last year, moved here from the south of England. The three were friends. The two local girls were non-Welsh-speaking. After a conversation about their studies at school and college, I eventually asked them what nationality they considered themselves to be. 'Welsh' the two replied, unhesitatingly, and the third, 'English'. I then asked, 'What about British?', and the three looked slightly askance, perplexed even. They hadn't even thought of it.
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The UK in its present form is somewhat less than 90 years old. Where do you get the figure of 20000 years from?
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#77
Our DNA is shared throughout the UK with the earliest settlers 20-40,000 years ago, the various migrations have had a minimal impact on this make-up.
You will be closely related to people living throughout the UK, there are small exceptions, naturally the statement doesn't apply to the recent immigrations (last 60 years).
A resume of Stephen Oppenheimer's research can be found at "http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=7817" . If you would prefer to read a book "THE JOURNEY OF MANKIND THE PEOPLING OF THE WORLD" by the same author, apparently our ancestors were Basques, not Celts. It seems that when I have written, sometimes unkindly, "hysterical histories", I was right.
So my Basque friend, join FiDafydd and myself and have a bottle of Fursty Ferret from Dorset.
#76
You've been at the home brew, I am firmly behind DC, if that can be described as a "wing", not certain it could be described as "Ultra". My daughter is much like your omnibus companions, but I am teaching her ....
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#79 Stonemason
Glad to hear your daughter's 'on board', so to speak.
You know it makes sense.
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79 Just before I start I need to state clearly that I do not consider Welshness to be defined by Race or Genetics. Having said that there have been a number of DNA studies done over the last few years that shows that there are generally three main genetic types in the British Isles (disregarding more recent immigration). These identified a 'Celtic' gene, an 'Anglo-saxon' gene, and a 'Viking' gene, which were spread all over the place, but with the highest concentrations of the Celtic gene in Wales and Southern Ireland (70-80%) falling to 50% in SW England and trailling off Eastwards to a lower concentration of around 20% in SE & E England, where the Anglo_saxon gene was highest. Viking genes were most common in NE England and around Scottish and iirish coasts, which tends to support history of anglo-saxons invading and displacing the original 'celtic' britons.
What is confusing, which does not fit with the accepted history, is that the 'celtic' gene is shared with the Basques - the term Celtic has often been disputed and which confuses art with language!
I dont know the answer to that one.....
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Re 79
"My daughter is much like your omnibus companions ..."
Good girl!!
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#63 WilliamFitz - Severn Trent Water have their supply from a resovoir in Wales at a discounted rate - that's a legal obligation set by parliament so that the water for English households has to be sold at a much lower than market value for a specified time limit.
Wales produces more electricity than it needs - the rest goes into the national grid - if Wales and England were seperate then the English would have to pay commercial rates for it. (If the Severn Barrage is built then Wales will be able to generate over half her needs with this one project and maybe we can re-evaluets the number of wind turbines built in Wales - much more than England in comparative terms.
The language of the internet is not English - Spanish, Arabic, German etc are all extensivley used. It is wrong to say that one language (Americanese) dominates the internet - that's the language you use and so assume that everybody else worldwide does as well. It ain't so.
Banana republic - how to define? Is it a country where the head of state is not elected, is hereditary maybe and depends on being the right religious sect and sex?
Maybe a Banana Republic is a country that has no elected second chamber to scrutinise legislation - made up of former 'old boys', party favorites and qualification depends on whoever your father was?
Maybe a Banan Republic is a state that has severe financial problems and has to go cap in hand to the IMF (Healy - 70's, remeber?) or a country wheer the financial sysytem is so corrupt that the Government - the government mind you - spends billions of pounds in artificially propping up the banks, without nationalising them so that the profits go to th same fat cats time and time again.
Maybe the defining feature of a Banana Republic is that all the politicians are on the make, unethical and dipping their hands in the till - thank the lord it isn't so here in the the UK is all I can say.
Maybe its to do with how a state behaves that makes it a Banana Republic - you know waging illegal wars, occupying weaker countries without right or reason? Maybe. I don't know and I sense a disturbing undertone to the use of the phrase 'Banana Republic' whenever its used.
And Wales using water to become a rich state is also preposterous - the rainfall would have to be good here to begin with and we would have to build resovoirs to collect the water, build pipes to the nearest market for water and so on. Even then it could only become true if the environment changed and water became a rarer commodity in the world and the UK - but of course that is never going to happen Williamfitz is it - not ever I suppose.
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#79 Stonemason - just a pedantic point, but this theory is discussed firstly and more fully in Oppenheimer's book "The Origins of the British" - and also, as I am sure you know, terms like 'Basque' and 'Celtic' and 'Anglo-Saxon' have no meaning whatsoever when it comes to genes and genetic studies. What I mean by that is that there is no meaningful link between nationalities, linguistic groupings or cultural units and genes.
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#83
Climyn
I have a very different mindset to you Climyn. I believe that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts; that there's greater economic and social strength in binding together than in separation.
Who provided the money to build the reservoirs in Wales? Was it Welsh entrepreneurs? How many tens of thousands of men benefited from those great building programs? Were they all Welsh?
Who provided the monies to build the natural gas pipeline from Milford Haven to the Gloucester and the National Grid? The answer to those questions is that the monies for the building of the reservoirs, in the main, came from central government; and the labour who toiled in the back breaking work of construction came from all regions of Great Britain.
And the money for the pipeline from Milford Haven like most major projects nowadays comes from an international consortium. And the benefit from that pipeline will be nation wide, not just for the Welsh.
And to put things in clear perspective, have a look at the recent blog by Betsan Powys. The NHS in Wales and Scotland can not even finance the anti viral drugs needed to safe guard their populations from swine flu. Each finance officer has sent a begging letter to Alistair Darling. Now I ask you...
Think British; you know it makes sense.
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#85 Fitz
'..to put things in clear perspective..'
Yes, Wales isn't in the position to lift itself from poverty. Its a bit like Oliver Twist, who had to keep asking for more. He had to break free from the workhouse mentality where he got what he was given and no more, and he had to know his place in society.
Those days are over. We don't live in a Victorian age any more where we doff our caps to our betters. The people of Wales are as good as any other, and can look after themselves. They have to break free of the British slough in which they've been held and trapped for generations.
Your answer is continued dependence and poverty, Ours is hope, and prosperity.
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#86
I don't often ask such questions, what exactly is British slough?
No rush, I won't be back on-line until Friday evening.
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#87 Stonemason
I was alluding to John Bunyan's 'Pilgrim's Progress' - the Slough of Despond.
Wiki isn't working tonight for some reason, so I can't provide my preferred link.
'Slough of Despond. A deep bog which Christian has to cross in order to get to the Wicket Gate. Help comes to his aid. Neighbour Pliable went with Christian as far as the Slough, and then turned back again.'
http://www.bartleby.com/81/15529.html
Wales is and has been in a 'slough of despond' for generations. Wales' neighbour has been both inflexible and 'Pliable' or undependable. 'Help' is needed to get out of it.
It's 'Self-Help' that's required. Do a bit of research on Samuel Smiles and his book of that name (1859). A Victorian concept, but valid today in some senses. We have to look to our own resources and not depend on others. As a Tory its a principle you should cherish. Essentially, its summed up as, 'stand on your own two feet!'.
Margaret Thatcher used the phrase in another context:
If you're in politics you expect to be knifed in the back. What I will never forgive is that I was away in Paris and there was a vote on whether I should continue as leader. And this was after nearly 11 years when I had taken Britain from the slough of despond to the heights. It was the most difficult night of my life. I shall never forget that and I shall never forgive.'
Hoping the above was of some assistance.
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#88
Did too much yesterday so am not working today, thanks for that, I wasn't sure where you were going with the phrase.
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#86
Bryn_Teilo
I sometimes think when I come on to this blog that I've entered a parallel universe.
"The people of Wales are as good as any other, and can look after themselves."
To the first part of that sentence all I can say is that I'm sure they are; I'm also sure that people in every region of Great Britain are sure they are.
But I'm also sure that unlike separatists the English speaking Welsh, who are no different in culture and language to their English/British counterparts, are as dependent on the common good as English speaking people in any other region of Great Britain.
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#90 Fitz wrote:
'I sometimes think when I come on to this blog that I've entered a parallel universe.'
Perhaps its because you're looking at it from a purely English perspective, a bit like looking through the wrong end of a telescope. Many people in England fail to appreciate why a lot of us in Wales and Scotland feel as we do. The converse isn't true... we do understand and appreciate why its difficult for them to understand us, its because they haven't experienced what we've experienced. Living in a small nation overshadowed by a much larger, more dominant country.
Have you considered that coming from Monmouthshire and having the opinions you have about that part of Wales (ie, not really being part of Wales) you may be over-compensating, and needing to prove that you are 'more English than the English'? You do give that impression sometimes. Sometimes new converts exhibit the same overzealous behaviour.
I'm sure that some people in England think that we are ingrates, for not appreciating an overwhelmingly 'English' nation state - which most of them think is a 'good' thing. Its generally in England that the two terms, 'British' and 'English' are conflated. It rarely happens in Wales. People in Wales don't confuse the two entities. I see and hear it often in the media, and on the BBC. People are interviewed and refer to Britain as 'England'. Sometimes the mistake is quickly corrected by the interviewee, or the interviewer, but generally not. Most people in England don't seem to mind about it, probably they don't even notice it. In Wales and Scotland we find it irritating, because it somehow negates our existence and is symptomatic of a more fundamental issue - difference. We pay our taxes and our licence fees here just as in England. Wales hardly exists as far as the BBC's News Channel is concerned. Its a difficult problem, how to give balance where there is such a great disparity in size between the four nations.
There are much more fundamental issues when it comes to politics, government and the economy, but essentially they reflect the same dichotomy. An attempt to understand the other point of view is always helpful, and can lead to a meaningful dialogue, instead of a childish tirade of abuse and endless 'put downs'.
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#85 Williamfitz:
I agree with so much you say - unity is strength, that's why Wales is a member of the EU along with the rest of the UK, the European Unity is the aim now - not staying a junior member of a failed imperial cause.
I have never understood the 'we built this place from nothing....' kind of argument. If you take that to its logical end then most of the roads built in Wales and England and Scotland over the last hundred years belong to Ireland and the Irish.
It's not who built them, or financed them or bulldozed local opposition to building schemes that matter - it's who owns them now and who will in the future. Do you think that the UK can insist that Saudi Arabia and Iran hand over a portion of their oil revenues because British companies developed them firstly?
Of course not. Same with Wales.
And while investors from all over the world contributed to building the pipeline in south Wales - its the local people there who are taking all the risks, whilst the fat cats cream the profits.
I believe that its time Wales benefited from its resources for itself and not feed into the London pocket.
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It reads as if Wales were Independent.....
"unity is strength, that's why Wales is a member of the EU along with the rest of the UK,"
Not quite correct ..... it should read .....
Wales, a component part of the United Kingdom which is the EU member state.
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I can only turn to the saint for help:
Oh Lord , save us from pedants
deliver us from pedantry
free us lord from those
who are overly concerned
with formalism and precision,
or who delight in making
a a show of learning.
Forgive them as we forget them also....
(prayer to St Raymond, the slightly interesting)
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Aristotle .....
To say of something which is that it is not,
or to say of something which is not that it is,
is false.
However,
to say of something which is that it is,
or of something which is not that it is not,
is true.
..... defined truth.
The opposite of truth is ..... unwelcome, particularly where the intention is to demean or insult.
..... to describe Wales as a junior member of the United Kingdom borders on dementia, the constituent parts are equal, there is no membership card, one for all, all for one,
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#91
Bryn_Teilo
As you say I was born in Monmouthshire, a legally constituted county of England; and it remained so until it was transferred to Wales in 1974. I could supply you with all the relevant and legal documentation as well as literary and cultural evidence to support my claim, not that it would have the slightest effect on a nationalist/separatist.
But that is all water under the bridge and I'm fed up with the controversy anyway. The political coup that legally transferred the county to Wales has been totally successful. And the eradication of memories of the county's English side is well under way, and within a few years I suspect the county's motto of Utrique Fidelis will be forgotten.
So you see I have never considered myself a convert to Englishness. Through language education and culture I just am - English. And most people are, on this relatively small island - to a lesser or greater extent by virtue of the English language.
That I suspect is an unpalatable truism for you, the romantic Welsh nationalist with a pipe dream of independence; but nonetheless it is true.
I now have a home in the north east of England. Newcastle was hit badly by the de-industrialization that happened during the 1980's recession. Since then under a program started by Michael Heseltine, there has been a considerable cultural renaissance in the city.
Only a few years ago the city centre was voted by listeners to the Today program (a very urbane and knowledgeable group of people) the most attractive provisional city centre in Britain. And all aspects of the Arts in the city are booming.
And that has been achieved without the fiscal albatross of an Assembly around our necks.
And personally I don't think you should mention Welsh nationalism in the same breath as the democratic Scots. In the devolution referendum of 1979 the turn-out in Scotland was far higher than the Welsh figure in 97, and the Yes campaign also won the day, but the Scottish democrats would not proceed with devolution because to do so would have been an affront to the democratic will. In the 97 Referendum in Scotland not only was there a large turn-out but also an emphatic Yes vote in favour of devolution.
The political opportunists in Cardiff in 97 however put two fingers up to the public and quickly pushed through a major change to a constitution on the flimsiest of majorities, while at the same time fixing their salaries and pensions at a very comfortable level. They then instituted a multi million pound building programme for a new Assembly (they already had a serviceable building) to reflect their own inflated egos.
I'm sure the Assembly members must rub their hands in glee in knowing they have such philanthropic supporters to call on.
Up here people saw what went before them in Wales and Scotland and sensibly put a broadside into John Prescotts flagship. It sank without trace.
There is such paranoia in your comments about English bias and talk of a small country being dominated by a larger country, that I find it difficult to comment without becoming sardonic.
And I honestly dont need any telescopes to view what goes on around me in any part of Great Britain; I dont even need glasses now: Ive just recently had my cataracts removed.
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#92
As I've said Climyn you're of a different mindset to me. I just don't see England or the Westminster parliament through the same jaundiced eyes as nationalists.
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Re 96
Yes, I too remember the debate about Monmouthshire - you lost.
By the way, what the hell does: "the most attractive provisional city centre in Britain" mean?
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#96
The devolution referendums of 1997 in England and Scotland were about creating two very different sorts of devolution.
A lot of what you assert is simply incorrect. Perhaps if you read more about it, before commenting, your comments would carry more weight.
'The political opportunists in Cardiff in 97 however put two fingers up to the public and quickly pushed through a major change to a constitution on the flimsiest of majorities.'
Your comparisons between Wales and Scotland are only partially correct.
Scottish devolution created a Parliament, with legislative competence in a wide range of areas, with relatively few, but important, policy areas reserved. The Parliament was also empowered to vary income tax rates in Scotland by +/- three percent. It was a significant constitutional change. There had been no Parliament in Scotland since 1707.
The converse was true in Wales. Devolution was purely administrative, indeed a relatively minor development constitutionally. Administrative devolution had begun in the 1950s with the creation of a Minister of State responsible for Welsh Affairs. Subsequently the office of SoS was created with the Welsh Office (in London and Cardiff) in the 1960s. More administrative areas were devolved to the Welsh Office subsequently. What the Government of Wales Act 1998 did (subsequent to the referendum) was simply to transfer the administrative powers of the SoS to a democratically elected Assembly. It did not change the (unwritten) constitution of the UK in any way. Devolution had already taken place. The decisions were already taken in Cardiff.
The majority vote in the referendum was very slim indeed. Some people voted against (as I did in 1979) because what was being offered was very little, and it would be expensive, as you rightly say. It was creating a talking shop, albeit a democratic one. Opinion in Wales changed between '79 and '97 largely because of what was perceived as eighteen years of harsh Tory government.
Public opinion in Wales, although divided, has moved towards further devolution since 1997. Every opinion poll has confirmed that trend. All the major parties now support the existing settlement, and are agreed that some measure of legislative devolution should take place. It is already taking place, incrementally but slowly, with the GoWA 2006.
The Conservative Party has completely changed its stance on devolution in Wales from opposition to support. Some elements within the party in Wales are even talking of going a lot further. Strangely, Labour, the party which created the Assembly, is the most ambivalent, and is divided largely between its Westminster MPs and its AMs on the question of legislative devolution. The unsatisfactory settlement of 2006 is a result of that division of opinion. Wales is suffering as a consequence.
In my opinion, further significant legislative devolution will take place. Its only a matter of time. The anti-devolutionists have already lost the battle. Nowhere in the world, to the best of my knowledge has democratic devolution from the centre been wound back. Do bear in mind that the democratic age is less than a century old, since universal suffrage was achieved in the UK. During that period most of Ireland has seceded from the Union, never to return. Scottish devolution will undoubtedly be considerably extended or Scotland will secede.
Your argument on funding is specious. Under Westminster, Wales' economy is weak and underdeveloped. Much of the UK's wealth (including Wales')gravitates to London and parts of the south of England. There is no natural or economic law which states that that must be the case. Wales has had no opportunity to devlop a true centre of government, with the associated central banking and investment institutions. Even the modest devolution since 1997 has allowed Cardiff's economy and prosperity to develop significantly. Anyone touring that city today, after a gap of twenty years would be amazed at the changes which have taken place and are taking place there. Were it to be a true centre of government, then I believe that Wales' economy would develop to the point where its gdp outstripped that of England. The RoI achieved it, and will pull out of the recession sooner than the UK, whereas the recession in Wales will be longer and deeper than in much of the rest of Britain.
As others have already pointed out. Perhaps you can answer this question:
If Wales, (and Scotland) according to Barnett, is a drain on the UK's economy, why has there been such reluctance at Westminster to devolve all financial powers to Cardiff (and Edinburgh) so that Wales has to be responsible for raising the money it needs for services to its people?
In other words, why hasn't England cut the ties long since?
There are a number of reasons. Generosity is not one of them.
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Oh I am very sorry, that of course should have been provincial. Oh how I wish I had your degree of infallibility. But I promise you I will try harder.
You say I lost! Well I'm sorry but the law isn't wrong surely. I did check my facts with the old Welsh Office. Anyway I don't recognize your name. Are you one of the multi-named posters that pollute MBs? Come on gimme a clue.
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#100
All I think he means is that you lost the argument on Monmouthshire's status as part of Wales. It is part of Wales, and its population haven't disputed it. The English Democrats polled abysmally there, on the basis of a referendum to make it part of England.
The legislative changes you make so much of were simply an admission of failure. All historic attmpts to assimilate the county into England had failed. If they didn't want to be part of Wales, the people would have voted with their feet.
Similarly attempts were made to assimilate the whole of Wales. That has patently failed too, as we're still here. We're Welsh, and proud of it.
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#101 Fitz wrote:
'...the law isn't wrong surely?'
I find it hard to believe that you studied any history at university. Not only are many laws palpably unjust, but they are plain wrong. Laws are repealed all the time, by implication, or by outright repeal, simply because they haven't worked, or because they don't reflect reality on the ground.
The UK Parliament could pass a Bill today, annexing the Moon, but that would be plainly ridiculous. At one time most of north America was governed by the Crown. Parliament could repeal, say, the Canada Act, to bring Canada back under British rule. It would have no practical effect, the Canadians would just put two fingers up to it.
The 1974 Act was an admission of failure. Too bad, Fitz.
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#99
When the Barnett Formula was set up it was regarded as an altruistic attempt to divide the national wealth according to certain criteria: the need in a given area, population size, and other social criteria.
At the time, prior to devolution I don't think there would have been any complaint about the disproportionate amounts of money paid to the Welsh and the Scots. Since then the West Lothian question, primarily has caused frictions in political circles in England. Just give it time and you might get your just deserves.
Now how about you answering this question: if the Barnett Formula giving Wales £11 Billion every year, give or take the odd pound, is turned off, how are you going to replace it and maintain the standard of living the Welsh enjoy today?
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#103 Fitz
The UK Government has failed to create a half-decent railway system. It was better 60 years ago. Every other western European country has managed to bring their railways into the 21st century. Same goes for just about everything in the UK, if it works, it only just manages to scrape by.
Wales needs a modern economy, a wealth generating economy. That will never happen in the UK. Its political and governmental structures are just not up to the job. Its a country living on its past.
Given the right opportunities and with the resources at its disposal, Wales can generate sufficient wealth to more than compensate for any loss of income from the UK government. In addition, there are burdens placed on the people of Wales through being part of the UK. Prime among them are Defence. Wales would not need Trident, or in fact any nuclear deterrent. Its defence force would be small, and used only for that purpose or for peace-keeping under the auspices of the UN. No immensely expensive foreign wars. It would not need huge security services and all the secrecy which accompanies them.
Wales would be under much less threat from global terrorism, as its foreign policy would not be seen as imperialistic or threatening to others. A National Identity Register would not be required, and Wales would not be a surveillance state. Its head of state could be elected, and huge amounts of money would not be needed on an extended royal family.
Wales' Parliament would be smaller. There wouldn't be a massive unelected second chamber full of privileged people.
Wales would be a full member of the EU, with all the privileges and responsibilities that entails. It would have a seat on the Council of Ministers and 300% greater representation in its Parliament. More European funding would be available, and it wouldn't be channelled at the whim of a Westminster Parliament.
Then there are Wales' natural resources. Its people, educated and resourceful, endowed with a new sense of purpose and pride in themselves and not being described as 'beholden' to others. In addition, there is our beautiful and varied landscape and coastline. There is huge potential in water and wind to provide energy and water supplies for all our needs, and to sell to others.
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#103
I understand that during 2007-08 the Government spent £8,577 in Wales, considerably more than 11 Billion.
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That would be 8,577 pounds sterling per person ...... in Wales.
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#106 Stonemason
The UK's defence budget in 2009-10 is a projected 39 billion. This does not cover the cost of operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, which are met by the Treasury Reserve. Since 2001 it has shelled out 9.7 billion. 3.6 billion has been approved for urgent operational requirements. The projected cost of the two new massive aircraft carriers has risen to 5 billion, and that's even before construction has started. Neither of them are going to be built in Wales. The replacement for Trident has also to be taken into consideration.
Wales' airspace is used by the RAF for low flying training, so its pilots can practice bombing villages and compounds in Afghanistan. Even the US puppet regime of Hamid Karsai installed in Kabul has called for moderation in the aerial bombing, as its killing far too many innocent people and providing recruits for the insurgents. Vast tracts of Wales are owned by the MoD and used as military training grounds, so that soldiers can be trained to kill. How does Wales benefit from all this?
Wales' economy is in a parlous state. Consequently a disproportionate number of the British army's ordinary recruits come from here, as they can't get other jobs. That's the only way the armed forces can get people to join. Its immoral. The army recruits are among poorly educated and deprived social groups. (See David Gee's Report, sponsored by the Rowntree Trust, on the British army's less than wholesome recruitment techniques).
In 2007 the UK was second only to the US in defence spending in the entire world. Here defence spending is above the European NATO average.
What have we achieved for all this spending?
Hundreds of thousands of civilians killed in Iraq, and tens of thousands in Afghanistan. An unknown number maimed. Hundreds of UK service personnel killed or seriously wounded. The latter will be a social and financial cost to the nation for decades, not to mention the pain and suffering. Upwards of a million refugees. Two corrupt governments installed in Baghdad and Kabul. Afghanistan is in a worse mess now than it was in 2001. Its an unnwinnable conflict, which Obama is escalating. The conflict has spread to Pakistan and has destabilised that country.
The UK's forces have been involved in torture, by their own admission, and the security services allegedly complicit in US torture and extraordinary rendition. After the US, the UK is the most detested country in the Middle East - a foreign policy disaster. The threat of terrorism has been significantly increased. (All this is on top of the abysmal historical record Britain has in the ME stretching back over than two centuries).
I believe Wales and its people would be much better off if its government could decide its own foreign and defence policies.
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You can spin and spin and spin, use as much sophistry as you like, but you will never spin away the undemocratic inception of the money gobbling Assembly in Cardiff Bay. It is a flawed institution that for all the expense does little more than the old Welsh Office used to do. And there was never the sort of expense scandals among civil servants that you have in Cardiff Bay.
So you get rid of Trident - many people across great Britain would agree with you, myself included; but I would not give up the nuclear option. It's a dangerous world and there are several rogue states around the world who have nuclear weapons. If Britain was attacked do you think the incoming missiles would have in-built Wales avoidance programs?
How long do you think it would take Wales to become a full member of the EU? One to five years? There would be many questions asked of the Welsh negotiators. Do you think England would have anything to say in the matter?
Given the delay in joining the EU and the resulting collapse in confidence of the Welsh public in their politicians do you think you would be able to stave off civil unrest?
Good golly miss Molly! And all these goodies from the EU are going to be given to you the moment you sever the sustaining link with England You need to take off those rose coloured spectacles and peer at the real world of politics. What you are aspiring to is not practical politics. Your politics is the politics of division. You are seeking to break a union that has sustained us for over two hundred years. It has been of benefit to the general good and only an economic fool would advocate a step into the political and economic unknown. You are playing with peoples lives but thankfully there are enough sensible people in Wales to see through the sham.
Think British; it makes political and economic sense; and it adds a degree of social cohesion, where nationalism is divisive and economically inept.
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"(All this is on top of the abysmal historical record Britain has in the ME stretching back over than two centuries)."
What bile what specious reading of the historical record. Here's just a couple of examples of the altruistic side of the British character.
In 1940 Britain stood alone against the most pernicious political philosophy the world has ever known.
For all the excesses of Empire, of which the Welsh were complicit, the British outlawed the practice of Sati in India (the immolation of the wife on the husband's funeral pyre).
The British were the first to end the practice of slavery and with vigorous diplomacy backed by the Royal Navy it was almost eradicated in the nineteenth century.
Bryn the more you write the more the revisionist spin of a nationalist/separatist comes to the fore.
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#108
Wales is going to have problems joining the EU? It already has members in its Parliament.
Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Finland, the Czech Republic, Romania, Bulgaria, Malta, Cyprus, Slovakia and Slovenia had no problems gaining membership. Many of those are already in the Eurozone, a far better source of protection than Sterling. The UK hasn't managed to join it yet. It will probably have to. Don't be surprised if the IMF are called in to sort out Gordon's mountain of debt in the next 12-24 months. Either way we will all have to pay for it, over a decade or more. He's borrowed more money than any other peacetime PM.
Its a truly appalling record. Every Labour government, and some Tory ones, have made a mess, but Blair and Brown have excelled at it on a previously unimaginable scale. Banks did not go bankrupt and need nationalising even in 1929-31. The BoE is printing 2 billion a week, as we type. This will add to the surge of inflation to come, on top of the 30% devaluation of Sterling which has already taken place. Have you checked supermarket prices recently? They've gone up 30% or more over the last twelve months. The media here doesn't publicise it too much. I wonder why.
Wales, at its worst, couldn't come close to such a shambles.
(You are making the same mistake I alluded to in an earlier comment above, of equating 'England' with 'Britain' (or the UK). Typically many English people do it unwittingly. I suppose it comes from some unconscious sense of superiority. 'We English know best'. 'We sustain you.' How demeaning for us in Wales and Scotland! What it actually means is, you send the likes of Hague, Redwood and Hain down from London to take charge of us. Our disadvantaged young people are pressured to join the 'English' army (your word) and get blown up in an 'English' imperial conflict in Iraq.)
If you drank a dozen bottles of Newcastle Brown, you couldn't talk less sense.
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#102
Bryn_Teilo
As I told you, but you've chosen to ignore it, as you do the importance of law, I did not major in history at university.
I also told you that I now have no interest in debating the legal status of Monmouthshire. I've written all I can on that matter.
Yes and we all know about the derisory vote of the EDs (about 2.9% of the popular vote I think). Still that's a much better figure than the 0.06% of the Yes vote which brought the Assembly into existence.
And I think that 2500 years ago, or there abouts, you would have been denounced by Socrates or Plato as a sophist.
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#109 Fitz
Here we go again.
'The British were the first to end the practice of slavery...'
You fail to mention that 'the British' were the worst culprits in the slave trade of the eighteenth and early nineteenth century. English cities like Liverpool and Bristol made a fortune out of it. You were the one, I think who said we shouldn't judge the past by our own standards, in the introductory elementary history lecture you had at university all those years ago.
And it wasn't the 'British' who ended slavery, it was a handful of evangelical reformers led by Wilberforce who had to struggle against all the vested interests in Parliament and elsewhere. It took decades. You make it sound as if Britain as a country deserved credit for stopping its participation in an inhuman trade. It would be the same as if you said, 'Look how good a country we are, we stopped killing people in Afghanistan!' or if the British Army wanted praise for banning torture.
I suppose you had an introductory lecture on philosophy too?
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#112 Fitz
I must say, I have a great respect for Socrates and the tradition he established. He debated effectively with the Sophists. If you take the trouble to read about them, you would know that your accusation is unmerited and undeserved.
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Re 111
"I also told you that I now have no interest in debating the legal status of Monmouthshire. I've written all I can on that matter. "
- yes indeed...and lost.
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#112
Bryn_Teilo
No I wouldn't say the British were the worst culprits in the slave trade. And as I've said on many occasions to you, that in any excesses committed by the British in days of Empire, the Welsh, Irish and Scots were as complicit as the English.
The British as far as I can make out were not a bad as the Arabs, the Portuguese, the Americans, and they, as I'm sure you know, fought a bitter and protracted civil war on the question of slavery.
What I have addressed in the above paragraph is the anti British/English spin you use in all your posts. And what I have said in that paragraph needs qualification of course and this blog is not the place to give it.
Now if ever there's a case of sophistry it's there in your final paragraph. Wilberforce's struggles took place in a British parliament, not in a French, German, Italian or in any other foreign debating chamber. His arguments fell on receptive political ears. The British government quickly took on board his concerns and applied diplomatic pressure on slave trading countries, backed by gun boat pressure from the Royal Navy.
Within decades the trafficking of African slaves across the north and south Atlantic was brought to an end.
Don't you think you should at least acknowledge the altruistic side of British culture, or at least give credit where credit is due.
Furthermore I notice that you did not address the actions of the British in outlawing Sati in India. And there again you missed saying anything about 1940 when Britain stood alone against the most pernicious political philosophy the world as ever known.
And I still think you are a very eloquent sophist. And as you know their main claim was that they with eloquence could make the weaker argument appear the stronger.
"I suppose you had an introductory lecture on philosophy too?"
No it wasn't purely an introductory lecture on philosophy that I had. I gained a distinction in the study of Periclean Athens. From then on in to my finals it was down hill all the way.
#114
FiDafydd
"- yes indeed...and lost."
No I didn't... I won.
Now come on play the Englishman. Give me a clue to where we've met before. Did you have a posh Welsh name in a previous incarnation or just a plain English name. I've got a good memory for English names but Welsh...no they just won't stick.
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Re 11
Fitz said:
"Now come on play the Englishman. Give me a clue to where we've met before. Did you have a posh Welsh name in a previous incarnation or just a plain English name. I've got a good memory for English names but Welsh...no they just won't stick."
I assume you say this because you believe the English to be superior.
Now, I know the extremist element of British nationalism who frequent this blog have a whole plethora of paranoias - but this is a new one for me!
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On all things of the United Kingdom .....
#107, nothing positive to be found,
#110, not a good word,
#112, and Slavery .....
Lets not leave out #116 .....
.... opposition is extremist, and the only nationalism is not Welsh Nationalism.
Thank goodness we have the Conservatives on the way, to cheer you both up.
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#115 Fitz wrote:
'I gained a distinction in the study of Periclean Athens. From then on in to my finals it was down hill all the way.'
When this blog discusses Wales' relationship with Periclean Athens, I will bow to your superior knowledge.
I'm not going to get into a discussion on the 'altruistic side of British culture', whatever that means, but I do give credit to Britain when its due, which isn't often. I'll leave making the case for preserving the Union to those who are committed to its continuation. They do have a case, albeit a weak one.
Your tribute to my eloquence is appreciated, but undeserved. Linking it to sophistry is unfair as I'm not engaged in this pursuit to win an argument simply for the sake of so doing, nor am I getting paid for it.
I really am convinced that the British Union has had its day, and that its constituent parts would be better off managing their own affairs, as far as that's possible in this day and age. That's not to say that they wouldn't or shouldn't work closely together in common purpose and mutual respect thereafter. That would be both necessary and laudable.
Neither am I going to be drawn on British imperialism in India. I am confident that serious students of history can come to their own conclusions about it, which would in all probability largely concur with mine.
I take it that sadly you didn't get a First.
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Re 117
You don't have to worry about me, I feel just fine. I've told you before, the tirade of abuse and hatred and self-loathing coming from your lot day after day after day actually cheers me up no end, as it shows quite clearly that the game is very nearly up for you - and you just hate it.
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Re 117
Oh, and also:
"On all things of the United Kingdom .....
#107, nothing positive to be found,
#110, not a good word,
#112, and Slavery ....."
erm, pot-kettle-black etc??!!
And:
Lets not leave out #116 .....
".... opposition is extremist, and the only nationalism is not Welsh Nationalism."
Of course not - so, perhaps finally you understand!
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The reality is that we would be successor states to the UK and as such England would automatically be a member and Wales, Scotland etc would be admitted as new members but automatically.
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#120
There was not a happy or positive thought in either #107, #110, #112, a sad state of affairs when there is so much to look forward to following the next general election.
I made a bo-bo it should have read the only nationalism is Welsh Nationalism.
There is an article in the Times today, view on line at the politics section, "Treasury announces bonfire of quangos to save taxpayer millions", how long before our WAG quangos etc.............
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#118 Bryn_Teilo wrote:
"I take it that sadly you didn't get a First."
As I indicated I did fall a notch but it was still a "good" degree.
"I am confident that serious students of history can come to their own conclusions about it, which would in all probability largely concur with mine."
You are very sure of your opinions, I must say. Ghandi and Pandit Nehru were both of the opinion that the struggle for independence would have been much more bloody and protracted if the colonial power would have been any of the others rather the British.
"When this blog discusses Wales' relationship with Periclean Athens, I will bow to your superior knowledge."
With such a bizarre discussion title it would surely limit disussion.
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#123
When I read ..... "I take it that sadly you didn't get a First." .....
..... I felt ashamed for #118.
Not all the Welsh are so spiteful WilliamFitz.
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#124
I wasn't being sarcastic or spiteful.
You have a tendency to impute unintended meanings to names and remarks without first ensuring that your interpretation is correct.
#123
I don't really want to be drawn on India. The actual independence struggle was relatively short, but even the transition was badly botched by Mountbatten. Some uncounted millions perished in the attempt to cross the new border because of his irrational and unexplained decision to bring forward the date for independence. It simply is too vast a subject and wholly inappropriate in this context.
"When this blog discusses Wales' relationship with Periclean Athens, I will bow to your superior knowledge."
There, a touch of sarcasm and humour was intended.
If my remark about your degree was capable of misinterpretation, and has caused any offence, then please do accept my sincere apology. As I stated above, it wasn't meant as any kind of 'put down'. We may have differences of opinion here, but its regrettable when comments get personal and offensive.
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#124
I agree with you stonemason. I've travelled widely enough in my younger days to know that human nature is fairly uniform, where ever you go: people want to educate their children; have a decent home; a decent education; a job that is not back breaking but fulfils their potential to live a good life and develop whatever is in their character.
We just need the constraint of well thought out Law around us to make sure that the flawed character does not try to circumvent the Law to enhance their own self interest.
I just hope that the Conservative Party when they come to power next year will cement over the cracks that are deepening in British society.
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#125
Bryn, I try to be fairly light hearted when I post, but if it comes across as acerbic at times I apologise to you. It's just that I cannot get my head around the reasons why people think they are different when they speak and converse in the same language, live within the same culture, yet believe that an extra tier of government, taxation and corruption some how makes them different.
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#126
More than cement over the cracks, dig out the bile and replace with well laid prosperity.
We are all the same, no-matter where we originate.
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Re 128
Oh, sad news for Spain, Denmark, Latvia, Hungary, Germany etc.; when are they to be forced into the British state then? Or are we to be annexed by one or more of them?
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#129
Your logic is illogical !
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Re 130
It is not. When does your sameness end? Where do you choose to place borders? How internationalist are you willing to be? Should we all perhaps speak French?
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What a good idea. French is my second language. Oh damn I forgot! In Welsh language circles no matter how many languages you speak you remain a monoglot unless you speak Welsh.
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#97 - Thank the lord I see thing through different eyes - you remind me a bit of a spaniel looking up adoringly at its master no matter how badly its treated.
#130 - as perfect an example of an oxymoron as you will ever find.
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Cilmyn, that's the least offensive description of me that I've seen on a Welsh blog or on a Welsh message board.
I've been called semi-literate, a bigot, an almost racist, a member of the BNP, you name it. Just to thank you, if you ever find yourself on a loose end in Newcastle/Gateshead, pop along to the Sage; you'll usually find me there around lunch time, and I'll buy you a glass of wine. That's not a cheapskate offer, a small glass Sauvignon Blanc costs four pound bl**dy fifty.
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# 134 WilliamFitz - I do not much agree with you but its also against my principles to refuse free drinks, so a dilemma.......but I warn you - I'll have to clear it with the wife first, and I drink Guinness also....
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message 22....
Quote....
"In a self-governing Wales, many of these costs, in money and lives could have been avoided. The money and the efforts spent on destruction would be better spent making Wales and the rest of the world a better place in which to live. Its just a matter of priorities."....
A prime example of 'cloud cuckoo land'.
We live on a planet divided against itself, for reasons of many colours, and a Wales withholding itself from the way of the world will do absolutely nothing to become such a region of peace and tranquility.
You ask for the moon, I am afraid.
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