Countdown
An Email pops into my inbox offering a course on "Dealing with Trauma". That it just so happens to be election week is, I know, a coincidence but the timing seems pretty apt.
By this time next week 736 European Parliament seats will have been won and lost, the Conservatives will know how much of an inroad they've made into local council chambers in England and Gordon Brown will have an idea to what extent you've believed him that he's the man to shore up the economy and sort out Westminster.
But before looking ahead, I can't help thinking back to this event a month or so ago - just a few days before the revelations about MPs' expenses started appearing in the Telegraph.
A woman in the audience, one who was there out of genuine curiosity not duty, asked Rhodri Morgan how he and his fellow AMs planned to fire the interest of young people in Assemby politics. It was tough, he said. Young people were interested in political issues but not inspired, perhaps, by political institutions and daily politics. The Assembly wasn't alone, he added. Look at Westminster - how many young people are interested in what goes on there?
What caught my attention was her response, a comment along the lines of 'Oh forget about Westminster. Nobody's impressed with that institution any more.' It was almost a brush-off, an off-hand dismissal of 'that other institution' that caught me off guard.
Fast forward a week or so and to another event, a public meeting held by the All Wales Convention in Monmouth. The expenses saga has already turned into a crisis of confidence in politics and in politicians. Public anger is palpable and shows absolutely no sign of subsiding. People can parrot which MP claimed for what. A new word has been coined - flipping - and has made the move from the headlines to pub conversations where it does real damage to reputations.
Three, four times, in different guises, the audience in Monmouth asked the same question. It went something like this: the current system of devolving power to the National Assembly relies on the guiding hand of Westminster. That's how it is and that's how - for some, though not all who posed the question - it ought to be. But how can we now have faith in the guidance offered by that hand? If has, after all, been caught in the cookie jar.
The logic is questionable. The genuine fury and loss of faith is not. Ieuan Wyn Jones showed last week that he'd already recognised that.
But given it's election week let's keep a cool head and think ahead no more than a few days.
The polls suggest that though MPs from all the major parties have been named in headlines, the fury and loss of faith is being directed, mostly, at Labour. The Conservatives don't emerge unscathed either.
What would that sort of pattern mean in Wales?
It would mean that Labour's second seat is vulnerable.
If all four major parties are pretty close, it could be one seat each.
Logic - not always useful during weeks like this one - would point to a result that has Labour, the Conservatives and Plaid Cymru neck and neck come Sunday night.
If enough Tory voters sense blood and if waverers are persuaded to stay away from UKIP, or if Plaid get the faithful out and score well enough on protest votes, then the table of MEPs will have changed by Monday morning and a whole lot more with it.
If Labour edge it, the canvassers will tell a story of anger and disdain, the percentages a story of huge losses but the table of MEPs will tell a story of no change. Two Labour MEPs, one Conservative, one Plaid.
We could well hang on to that second seat, one senior Labour voice suggested today but if that happens - and was it me or did they seem rather too willing to imagine losing one scalp - then the battle will be on come Monday to make sure the party doesn't pretend that two seats = no problem.
Perhaps I should press a button and forward that Email.
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~48~RS~)
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Can't see Labour keeping second seat...indeed can't see them winning the election....in my village Labour members ain't bothering to vote..
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Ieuan Wyn Jones is reported in your link as saying .....
"..... the "shenanigans at Westminster" made an "early, successful referendum" more likely."
The unholy alliance between local Labour and Nationalists had better make it quick, the question of "more powers" seems to be heading for the back burners. David Cameron in Mold 25th May said.....
"..... if you think of devolution as just giving power from Westminster to Cardiff its missing the point .....". The recording can be listened to a the "Daily Post website".
he prefers to .....
"..... give people more control over their lives .....", less central government I think, Westminster or Cardiff.
and he signs off with .....
"..... lets make work what we have now, and then have another look at it .....".
It's what the Unionists who comment here have been writing for months, seems to be coming to pass, it's no wonder the separatists are squirming, their vision, much like "Alice Through the Looking Glass" is proving to be just an illusion for the disillusioned.
DC seem to be answering the "English Question", the question that needs answering before our constitution is destroyed by the witless at the behest of the hapless, Nationalists that is.
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Betsan....
this sentence from your above headliner, I followed ...
...."The logic is questionable. The genuine fury and loss of faith is not. Ieuan Wyn Jones showed last week that he'd already recognised that..".
His final paragraph pretty well sums up our problems heer in Wales....
....."Meanwhile, Mr Ieuan Wyn Jones chooses to focus on talk and process rather than action. This will hold little interest for people who are battling to save their jobs and looking for real help to get through the current recession......"
A severe preference for 'wind' almost to hurricane levels, and to hell with the people, it would seem.
Do you ever envisage 'real' and positive politicians, or are we doomed to suffer the same old tripehounds for ever and a day?
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FWIW I think that Plaid & Cons are currently scrapping for first place in these elections, with Labour pushed back into third - BUT......
It does not really make much of a difference in this particular election - the voters are not voting on any European issues - or any policy issues at all - this has become a protest vote election.
So although I will be pleased if Plaid win the second seat on Sunday - I will not read very much into it - same goes if UKIP manage to pinch the fourth seat.
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In Pembrokeshire you have "Flip 'n' Grabb" (Stephen Crabb) undermining the Tories and evidence that a whole new swathe of Labour members and supporters are peeling away from their traditional party. Its all very interesting. Very interesting indeed. Who knows how the chips will fall, but clearly its going to be a long night at the count.
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Stonemason
I presume that you've never noticed that "the nationalists" have been calling for greater decentralisation for decades - not just to Cardiff, but out to all parts of Wales. Its not David Cameron's idea.
AS I remember it, life under a Tory government meant Gaulieters from outside Wales ruling from the Welsh Office, implementing unpopular policies without a mandate - with a huge fault line running between the people of Wales and those in power.
Even now we have Shadow Tory Welsh secretaries from outside Wales and a handful of potential Welsh based candidates for the job (Crabb, Davies) who would rather see the Assembly ditched to we could go back to the old model of rule from London.
I can't find much difference between those guys and the UKIP position to be honest. Anti-devolution Tories are the norm, and if there's one political battle left that's truly worth fighting, its defeating those who want to take Wales back to the dark days, the days when governments paid absolutely no attention to what people in Wales thought.
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message 7...
I see a large dose of illogic in your comment, in the paragraph quoted below...
...."I presume that you've never noticed that "the nationalists" have been calling for greater decentralisation for decades - not just to Cardiff, but out to all parts of Wales. ..."
Cameron's involvment is immaterial until and unless he becopme PM in the next General Election.
To proceed.
To call for membership of the EU whilst at the same time demanding decentralisation, then coupled to yet more powers to that useless
menage in Cardiff, is a contradiction of some high degree.
In other words it would seem you would like to sever the ties with the UK, as the UK is domineering Wales, yet go for an even more domineering partner, the EU. A slight case of inconsistency there, as I see it.
There is a vast gulf between the values in, and of, decentralisation, and devolved powers.
I have been arguing for a long time that certain aspects of government, in particular those related to local government, be decentralised,
However, what has been done, and very badly, as I and others see it, is a pseudo replacement for Westminster in Cardiff Bay.
By all means I will support decentralisation, if it means the vast amount of money being thrown at the Assembly is taken from it, the whole structure taken down, and the released funds disbursed amongst the councils of Wales, which are currently all crying poverty.
Is it any wonder when the WAG retains some 400 millions just for admin purposes, which distributed, according to need, between the 22 local authorituies, could improve the lives of three milllions at a stroke.
I am sure that Torfaen County Borough Council, for just one of thsoe councils, could find use for about 15 millions, right this minute.
A small proportion of which sum, could help put the road sufaces in my area to rights.
Not the slightest doubt in my mind that decentralisation would be a benefit, unlike what has occurred, ten years of waste, and wasted effort, by that mess in the Bay of Pigs.
And, on a personal basis, I couldnt care less which political colour the flag flying over Westminster is at the time.
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8 - Without challenging you on the accuracy of your 400 Mill figure, the WAG administration cost does not refer to the cost of the Senedd (well only a small part of it does) and before devolution, this cost would have been shown as being Welsh Office admin costs. And without the Weslh Office these costs would have been shown up as in Central Government costs realating to eduction, health, transport etc.
Or to put it another way, there is no magical pot which can be distributed.
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Interesting analysis of the Euro election and all the various permutations of who can pick up or lose seats.
But you missed one possibility - that Labour lose their second seat and the Lib Dems pick up their first. Isn't it true that the Liberals need a much smaller swing to get one seat than either Plaid or the Tories need to get their second?
And if what you say about the expenses scandal affecting Labour and the Tories more than Plaid and the Lib Dems is true, then the Lib Dems are surely in a good position to increase their vote.
I don't know, it just seems like a glaring omission, especially since you've considered all other possibilities (including the possibility that Labour might hold onto their second seat - which is a ludicrous notion if you ask me, or indeed anyone else).
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message 9...
Considering teh Welsh Office was also a construct of the not too distant past, I cannot see your logic.
We managed quite well without all of these types of 'outstation' set ups, it is only since we have been lumbered with this sort of administration ensmble that troubles have begun in Wales.
But please be good enough to tell me how having a 'establishment' in Wales comes, as you appear to be saying, without costs?
The recent admin costings for the Assembly WAG were just under 400 millions, published figures, in case you dispute then.
As I said, money that should NOT be awarded to increased public service employment, but to the needs of the people of Wales.
I cannot recall where to access figures pre Assembly, but I seem to remember that since devolution, costs have risen enormously.
If those 'working' in Assembly occupations need work, let them seek it in commercial enterprise, not dive into the pig swill trough where they are seen as a total waste of time, OUR money, and space.
Or to put it another way...Central government costs are OK! by me.
Like all rolling snowballs, they gather more and more, in order to keep moving.
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11 What I am saying is that in England these same costs are shown as being Central government administration. Of course there could be cost savings by scrapping Senedd, WAG and anything distinctly Welsh, and absorbing these into central UK governmant administration - but these cost savings would not be 400 million - maybe nearer 40 million, but probably much less)
But it would be a Brave politician (brave in the 'Yes Minister' sense) who proposed it.
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I've not experienced anything like this. Its impossible to predict the outcome of any election at this time. We have no idea what the turnout will be. Will more or fewer people vote because they are so disgusted with politicians? Will they turn to the fringe parties in Wales? Who knows? We have a week to wait.
Whatever the outcome, little will change. The political landscape will stay the same. The incompetent sleazy New Labour tories will stay in power for a year followed by a decade or so of the real sleazy Tories. There will be no reform, only cosmetic tinkering, whoever wins, and that includes the LibDems.
IWJ is right. Why should the people of Wales trust a tiny handful of nonentity MPs in the Welsh Affairs Committee to decide Wales' destiny? After Cameron wins the next election there will be a Tory majority on that Committee, and it will include MPs from English seats if the Tories fail to win six seats in Wales. We will get Cheryl Gillan from Amersham as a Secretary of State.
I don't think it will make much difference who gets elected to Strasbourg
from Wales (as long as its not a disgusting racist neo-Nazi). Wales has only four MEPs. As a sovereign state, and a full EU member, Wales would be entitled to twelve MEPs.
Jill Evans, Plaid's MEP, made a valid point on the Politics Show when she said that she has been trying to get the four MEPs from Wales (herself and the two Labour and one Tory) to meet together regularly to try to get the best for Wales. The other two parties have consistently refused to meet. They couldn't give a damn about Wales. Three of the Tory candidates don't even live in Wales. What a farce.
If we want a better Wales, and hope for the future, then we should vote for a party which supports self-determination for our country.
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10 Back to Euro elections, in order for fourth placed party (whether LD or UKIP) to win a seat then they must get at least half of the vote won by the first placed party (whether Plaid, Conservatives or Labour). If not then the first placed party will win a second seat.
I will stick my neck out and say that Plaid will 'win' with around 25% -but neck and neck with Conservatives and Labour. So LD or UKIP would need to increase their vote to 12%+ to get a seat - certainly possible - leaving it a vey opne 5 way fight for the fourth seat!!
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"......and anything distinctly Welsh....
Why throw that in pen?
I am all for closing down the current establishment, but why would that involve 'anything distinctly Welsh'?
One could say clearing spoil heaps would involve demolishing Welsh mountains. Just as logical, or illogical, according to how you view it.
There is Wales, and there is the present governance of Wales, not interchangeable, nor yet a subject for demolition for both, just because the unimportant one should be taken down.
But to ask you a serious question, how would you like to see the outcome of this forthcoming election?
I sense a mixed bag, but that should not be taken as an indication of the result of the next general election, as by then, things may have become a lot clearer, and what appears as good fortune for some today,. may well be not so in the future.
Going onto another germane matter, I seriously doubt that Cameron, being the fortunate one, will impact much on the status of the WAG/Assembly.
He will, no doubt he hopes, have party faithful in the Senedd, and would therefore not wish to upset the apple cart, of some sort of hold on Wales.
I would go as far as to say, he may well, in power, grant the nationalist element their dearest wish, on the grounds he can save the rest of the UK that 9.1 billions it provided to Wales last year, and possibly increased amounts in the years to come.
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One very important factor that you didn't mention in your analysis is the Green Party, Betsan.
In England the Greens stand a very good change of improving on their two existing seats, hopefully gaining another four. That's for the simple reason that constituencies in England are bigger, which makes it possible for the Greens to get a seat with about 8% of the vote. In fact a vote for the Greens is likely to be the most effective way of keeping out the BNP, because votes for the bigger parties will be diluted by a factor of two, three or four.
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But things are very different in Wales because we only have 4 seats, therefore a party would need to get roughly 13 or 14% of the vote to win a seat. This puts the fourth seat out of range for the LibDems and the smaller parties. As Betsan notes, there isn't much doubt that the big three parties in Wales - Plaid, Labour and the Tories - will win the first three seats, each neck-and-neck, each getting somewhere in region of 23 to 27% of the vote. But there is all to play for because the party that finishes in front will pick up the fourth and final Welsh seat.
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As I'm sure most people will know, both the Greens and Plaid Cymru (together with the SNP and other parties in the European Free Alliance) work together and vote together in the European Parliament as part of the Green-EFA group. Therefore it is very likely that a substantial number of people who would normally vote Green in other elections will use their vote tactically and support Plaid Cymru in this European election.
The Greens are currently showing at about 9% in the opinion polls for UK as a whole, so (even though the polls don't provide breakdowns for Wales) it would be fair to assume that support for the Greens is running at about 6% in Wales. That is nowhere near enough for the Greens to win a seat in their own right in Wales, but if maybe half of this number vote tactically for Plaid on Thursday it would make all the difference in helping Plaid to edge ahead of the Tories and Labour, because 27 or 28% should be enough to come top. This will mean that the Green-EFA group get two of the four Welsh seats rather than just one.
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A word of explaination about post #2.
As the BBC moderators have just told me, there are special house rules in place during an election period, therefore I can't encourage anyone to vote in a particular way, as that may be seen as electioneering. However it is acceptable to make the comment that such tactical voting could occur, and might well make a difference to the outcome if it did.
Under the special rules I should also declare that I am not a candidate in these elections.
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15 Just sticking with this weeks election - for the reasons I stated in 5) above, I do not have any real preferences for the result of this election, other than I sincerely hope that the BNP do not make any progress - I do not expect them to come close to winning a seat in Wales, but I hope that they achieve less than 5% here and do not make any gains in England.
But the vote is largely irrelevant to the forthcming UK election and Welsh referendum, and nothing can be projected from it.
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In response to brynt41, I think that you should not be quite so easily taken in by Jill Evans's comments on the Politics Show on cooperation between Welsh Meps. Over the past 10 years I have actually had good working relationships with both the Labour MEPs and with Jill Evans on Welsh issues of common interest. The suggestion however that Jill has somehow been single-handadly trying to get us all together to meet on a regular basis is quite frankly 'baloney' and only said by her in the relative safety of a studio where the other 3 Welsh MEPs were not present to challenge her.
JONATHAN EVANS MEP 1999-2009
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Prediction:
PC 24%
Tory 22%
Labour 20%
UKIP 10%
Lid Dem 10%
BNP 9%
Green 5%
Eraill 0%
Give or take +/- 10% for any party !!!
Btw Jonathan do you think you blundered in having your top three candidates living in England?
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On what planet is the langauge used in Betsan's blog politically neutral? I check in with this blog from time to and it amazes me that no one questions this.
I'm not commenting on the specifics of the expenses thing, or the issue of politician's cerdibilty. Its just so obvious from reading this, and other entries, that Betsan's view starts from a perspective that is essentially anti-Westminster and pro-Plaid.
I'm sure Betsan was personally thrilled that someone in that audience questioned Westminster's relevance... it controls everything Britain does on the international stage, our security, our infrastructure, money etc. So like it or not, its relevant.
Its a dillusion to think that the second rate orators that occupy the building in Cardiff Bay have any hope of engaging young people in an politics in an effective mass way. Its easy to do that when the entire country (or rather the bit that is paying attention) is angry with politicians and feeling broke; and easy for Ieuan Wyn Jones to use this to score points for his party's agenda. But that is just a distraction from the most important issue getting the country's democratic values back on track.
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#18 jonathanevansmep wrote:
"I think that you should not be quite so easily taken in... ..the other 3 Welsh MEPs were not present..."
We are aware that you are standing down, Jonathan, but we might wonder why the Tory candidate, Dr Kay Swinburne, on the programme wasn't briefed by you regarding your record of 'co-operation' with the other MEPs from Wales. She made no attempt to deny Jill Evans' assertion. Although Dr Swinburne is from Llandyssul and is Welsh-speaking, I understand she lives in Ledbury, Herefordshire, and is a Conservative councillor there.
I gather that her response to criticism of not living in Wales (whilst wanting to represent us in Europe) was something along these lines, ' Theres a phrase in Welsh which roughly translates, "The best Welshman is a Welshman away from home".' The logic of that is that we should all up and leave, but then she wouldn't have anyone to represent! Where would Wales be if we all had her attitude?
The trouble with the two main parties vis-a-vis Wales is that they have used the country for their own ends. The truth is that we don't want people parachuted in simply because you can't find enough suitable candidates here. We've had enough of the Redwoods, the Hains, the Hagues and the Kinnocks who have used Wales for their own ends but don't actually live here.
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"Betsan's view starts from a perspective that is essentially anti-Westminster and pro-Plaid."
Strange you say that - I remember Betsan's observations on the last council elections (Plaid's best ever)something like:
"Statistics do not tell the full tale"
To a Plaid supporter that was extremely irritating !!!
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On a more optimistic note - the weather will be dry and warm so voting percentages should be higher than usual, and despite public anger at the recent scandals, the claim that they are apathetic towards politics and politicians that has been made many times over the last few years is not an excuse this time round.
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[#18] In the "relative safety of a studio", Jonathan? She was sitting with each of the other lead candidates, including your own Kay Swinburne. Why didn't she (or indeed the Labour candidate) call it "baloney" there and then ... unless what Jill said was true? Have you not briefed her about her new job?
Kay Swinburne and Derek Vaughan will get elected because they are the lead candidates for the Tories and Labour. I only hope these "new broom" MEPs take a "new attitude" with them and take up Jill Evans' offer of regular meetings in a way that their predecessors didn't. Does it really matter who gives out the invitations? If it will help, get Kay to "propose" them instead ... I'm sure Jill and Eurig will be more than happy to attend!
... and who knows, Kay might get to learn a few things about the Wales she hasn't lived in for years, and still doesn't live in. After London, she was making a political career in Hereford until the Tories decided that Hereford was close enough to Wales to count as the same thing!
And yes, the same logic applies to Mark Pritchard, MP for the Wrekin, who fills one of the Tory places on the Welsh Affairs Select Committee. Not to mention the shadow SoSW who represents Chesham and Amersham ... who will follow in the footsteps of the more famous MP for Wokingham and his more forgettable protege, the MP for Richmond.
The Tories have very clear-set ideas about Wales that can be summed up in these words: Keep your distance ... Wales can be governed by remote control.
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For us in Wales, the EU election result will depend entirely on turn out.
Probably Plaid will get everyone out - the numbers will reflect their total vote.
Labour voters will either stay at home or change to another ticket.
Conservatives, will loose many to UKIP - there is real anger that Cameron is not guaranteeing a Referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.
The LibDems will pick up some Labour votes, but no Tories.
The outcome will be very different to what can be expected at a General Election, no conclusions should be made regarding Welsh support for any major constitutional change from this vote.
The important numbers will be Plaids total, and the sum of Tories and UKIP.
Labour despite being the natural party of Wales, is now out of the game, an also ran.
They are heading to replace the LibDems as the third party for at least a generation.
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A big thank you to Jonathan Evans for taking an interest in this blog, and
taking the time to contribute. Jill Evans is probably reading a Palestinian politics site , but still, no guesses as to who gets my vote !
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Re 3
Stonemason,
The way you go on about David Cameron in message after message, you'd think he was the head of a cult!
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FiDafydd
..... a tad busy at the moment, but DC, his words .....
"..... if you think of devolution as just giving power from Westminster to Cardiff its missing the point ....."
..... were inspirational.
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Quite right "The Stonemason". I personally think we might be coming to one of those critical points in the political world when decisions regarding the individual/collective are to be rearranged infavour of the former. The trouble is that if DAVE gets to power in Westminster any freeing of individual power/responsibility will stop at "border" as beloved by BBC Wales as our assembly is rooted somewhere in 1945-1950.The collectivist/socialist mind set is so firmly established in welsh labour heartlands that true devolution of power from state both central and local will never take place here whilst our mickey mouse assembly is in place. The RTB was fundamental "plank" in Mrs. Thatchers election manifesto in 1979 and enacted in Housing Act 1980,however any such programme/policy by DAVE would not run to Wales as those powers are with Assembly. The parts of Wales that are very similar to England (howls from NATS) in income/class/language etc are in effect going to be disenfranchised by flat earth socialism as put inplace by King Rhodri 11 and his Nationalist/Socialist claque.
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From tomorrow for the next three days the members of the EU will be deciding who will represent them - as we know Wales will be deciding how its 4 seats will be shared.
Luxembourg(pop 450k)will decide how its 6 seats will be shared; Malta (pop 400k)has 5 seats; Estonia(pop 1.3M) has 6 seats; and Cyprus (pop 1M) has 6 seats as well. The combined populations of these countries is roughly the same as the poulation of Wales. The combined number of seats is of course 23.
Of the other members of the EU its Lithuania that has the closest population numbers to Wales with 3.3M and has 12 seats, as does Ireland with a population of 4.2M.
So at present we have 4 seats to ponder over while smaller countries have far larger representations and a more vigorous election that generates better tun-outs than we have in Wales.
Under the present arrangement then Wales it seems is handicapped by not being a full member in her own right. Maybe a referendum would be in order.............?
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No.30. Come along you know that in reality we "Wales" is part of UK and hence our number of 4 MEP'S.We'll have a referendum when ever you want it and the NATS and fellow travellers will get well sorted,even with help of BBC Wales/S4C.
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# Snoutsintrough - the last referendum we had went their way though didn't it? After all the rubbish from Westminster and to a lesser extent Cardiff Bay over the last few weeks of expense-gate, I would not be counting any chickens before any referendum for further autonomy for Wales as a country happens. I think its a truism that people when (& if they bother to) they vote do so on a range of issues not just the one represented by candidates on the ballot paper. The election tomorrow is bound to reflect this and thats why all the main parties are a bit on edge because they (and everybody else) do not have the foggiest how things will pan out. If there was a referendum for autonomy for instance for Wales within the EU held NOW - then I don't have any idead how it would go but would bet my mortgage that the electorate would protest with their voting - and then who knows?
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Cilmyn 32. Yes by 50.3 to 49.7 in a 50.1 turnout. Not very convincing with virtually the whole welsh political class and fellow travellers in media supporting the creation of Assembly. As was said there is'nt really a north/south divide politically in wales,but a massive gulf between east/west wales. I've got the figures and if East wales had increased its turnout and with the great population the result would have been resounding NO. If we get another vote on "more powers", it will have to include abolishing the"waste of space" down the Bay,and from discussion with friends etc there is little love for it in the english speaking part of wales that I live in.
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#33 Snoutsintrough: What you say is true obviously about the turnout and the winning margin, but under our system as it is at present then 'one vote is enough' as Winston used to say. I also tend to agree with you that there is an east/west political split in Wales - that was most evident after seeing the voting patterns of the devolution referendum, and is a great worry for the future if it develops. The truth though is that people did not vote for whatever reason during the referendum and if we have one in the future then we should also have a full list of options from returning to as it was before devolution to autonomy - and we'll have to abide by the result even in a low turnout, even if its just by one vote.
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message 32, 33, and 34....
The problem as you have perfectly pointed out, was the fact that the referendum was not seen by those who are, in the main, along the 'east' sector, as relevant to their lifestyle or political leanings.
Tory and Labour alike, failed to turn out.
Now we have the Assembly setting in motion groups like the All Wales Convention, and others, that are prevented from taking questions regarding the future status of Wales, as though the deal is signed sealed and delivered.
Instead of which, all that is looked for is whether Wales should have increased powers or not.
Apparently whenever the more in depth questions are asked at those meetings where the AWC et al are holding forth, they are brushed aside as irrelevant to the purpose of the meeting.
Where are the meetings, also funded by US the taxpayers, (via the Assembly as in the case of the AWC et al), at which we can ask the questions we want answers to?
Such as, when will we get the promised referendum, so that we can, hopefully, get that other half of the electorate to utilise it's franchise to good effect.
Message 34 puts it succinctly in his last paragraph, but I sense that even if the whole thing is turned over, these nationalist nuts will not cease their moaning and groaning, will not be satisfied or want to accept a losing result, and we will sooner, or later get another 1997 to contend with. No matter what the turnout is, or what the margin of winning or losing happens to be.
Be it by just one hundred thousand votes or.. just one vote, either way.
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