A grand old time
People in Gwydyr House, as a friend of mine once said, shouldn't throw stones. But they can throw up interesting stories on a Tuesday afternoon and some light on the future of the Welsh language LCO while they're at it.
We're expecting the Welsh Affairs Select Committee to announce what they make of the LCO over the next few weeks, if not days. Every wink, every nudge suggests that negotiations with the Assembly committee have been more than cordial. They've been "extremely pleasant" as one MP put it and "both sides have learned a lot from each other". I bet he very nearly added: "No, really!"
Bottom line? The wave of protest in response to plans to put language legislation in the hands of the Assembly just hasn't crashed over the Wales Office as some in Gwydyr House had expected. Yes, there have been issues, some serious, raised by parts of Welsh business and industry but otherwise? More muted, you suspect, than anticipated.
When we find out how "pleasant" the Welsh Affairs Select Committee's final report will be, there'll be some more to-ing and fro-ing between the Assembly and the Wales Office but the final Order should be in place within weeks.
But first, on July 8th there'll be some grand standing and I mean that almost literally.
The Select Committee's report on the order will be debated by the Welsh Grand Committee next month - the first time an LCO-in-the-making will have faced this particular hurdle. Why? Because this is an important issue, a contentious issue. When the Government of Wales Act was in the making, Peter Hain made clear that those sorts of issues would be debated fully - and here we are, a chance for every Welsh MP to have his or her say.
And then? Then, some time during the next term of Parliament, the Welsh Language LCO will be debated on the floor of the House of Commons. It won't go through on the nod. It will be debated in full, the first time in 16 years that "the language" will be discussed in the Commons.
Will MPs chomp at the bit, try to catch Mr Bercow's eye and give the order a good kicking?
Possibly. One or two contenders come to mind.
Or hang on a second: with a few months to go before a General Election, isn't it more likely that they'll take the opportunity to stand one by one and praise the order, welcome the passing of a sensible piece of legislation that they will hope, in turn, will lead to sensible Welsh laws being passed by the Assembly, securing the future of a Welsh language that (in it' place) they support ... and vote it on its way?
On its way where next? To the Privy Council possibly by Christmas and bear in mind that the born-again Welsh Secretary Peter Hain will also, then, be well on his way to claiming that it is he who delivered for Wales the most significant boost for the Welsh language in quite some time.
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~26~RS~)
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Time I fear, for English only speaking Welsh folk to leave Wales.
The Welsh language fanatics have taken over the appalling assembly, and are intent on making Welsh the 'preferred' language. If you and your children cannot, and have no wish to speak Welsh, then look out.
Our apathy, and yes naivety at the polling booth has been cynically used by the nationalist Plaid Cymru. Together with a Rhodri Morgan (who has obviously changed political allegiance) Plaid Cymru with just a tiny proportion of Welsh votes, now rule the roost down the bay.
If ever there was a case of the tail wagging the dog, then this was it. Plaid Cymru now control the assembly, the media, and are concentrating on spreading their divisive bile on the young.
Plaid always planned on using the language as a political 'splitting' tool. By spending far too many millions on promoting (and forcing) Welsh upon an easy-going English only speaking majority, they are displaying a fanaticism not seen in the UK for a very long time.
People born and bred in Wales who speak up against their activists are called "anti-Welsh" "Welsh- haters" and lots of other absolutely ridiculous, bullying nonsense.
There does now seem to be an awakening of those who do not speak Welsh. Though unfortunately the appallingly Welsh language biased press and TV continue to 'spread the language gospel.' Plaid Cymru have been here before, but the Welsh majority realized where they were being led and quickly dipatched them back to the obscurity from whence they came. The unity of Wales is already being divided by devolution, and Plaid Cymru, with their admitted aim of total Welsh Independence.(!!)
Time to teach the nationalists a lesson in democracy, and send them packing....
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Is this the process by which the people of Wales get legislative power over their OWN Language?
- negotiations between the WASC and the Assembly
- 'to-ing and fro-ing' between the Assembly and the Welsh Office
- a debate in the Welsh Grand Committee (not limited to Members from Wales)
- a debate on the floor of the House of Commons
- whatever other parliamentary hurdles stand it its way in the unelected House of Lords.
Such an approach is an insult, not only to Welsh-speaking people, but to every person who cares for our Language and has goodwill towards it. Our Language's survival has been in the hands of a Parliament in which Wales has only six percent representation in its Lower House and hardly any at all in its Upper undemocratic Chamber. Over the centuries the English Parliament and UK Parliament has shown contempt for Welsh. It has gone from all out efforts in the 1536 legislation which aimed to destroy the Language to two pathetically weak Acts in the 20th century which did little or nothing to save the Language from extinction.
Why should MPs from England, Scotland and N Ireland have ANY say in what happens to OUR Language? Power to legislate on it should have passed to the Assembly in 1998. I blame the Labour Party for that failure, and many, but not all, of its MPs from Wales. Rhodri Morgan was right in saying that his party should take care not to be seen as anti-Welsh, because it is viewed as such by many of us.
If the people of Wales are not best placed to decide our Language's future, then who is? Is it to be William Hague, John Redwood, David Cameron, Gordon Brown etc?
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The English-only monoglots will only leave Wales because they cannot abide with the idea of its own language having equal status. As all too many recent entries have shown, these people do tend to have rather robust views on a lot of issues. If they cannot bear the idea of living in a land where language and culture are treated in an equitable manner (such as in Switzerland, Scandinavia, the Netherlands and other culturally and politically mature nations) perhaps they are being attracted to Yorkshire and North West England where they will find MEPs of a similar political outlook. A rather ghastly form of osmosis, perhaps.
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Re 1 Wow...your view of Wales doesn't seem to bear any resemblance to reality here in Cwm Gwendraeth, where we have to fight to stop labour controlled Carmarthenshire County Council from merging a successful Welsh medium school with 850 pupils and excellent results, with a nearby failing English medium school with 250 pupils, and turning the merged school into an English medium school!!! Madness eh!!
Fortunately, I hope, 97% of the 4.200 local comments received by the council were opposed to the plan.
Maybe your view of Wales doesn't bear any resemblance to reality anywhere in Wales.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
i think that Noah is trolling....best to ignore him
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The plot has been lost by Plaid and chums.
Without a language issue, Nationalism and/or Separatism have no weapon of difference to drive through the Fog of their political ambitions in Wales, the Welsh Affairs Select Committee have realised this, and during the coming months, no doubt interrupted by a General Election, will spike this linguistic cannon by adoption.
Then, as the months go by, as the economy grows, as reality reasserts itself, and the linguistic cudgel captured by the Union has been converted into ploughshares, the radical politics of the far left will wither on the vine of Plaid aspirations.
There is No anti-Welsh anything, though there is the smell of defeat from the Plaid camp, attempts towards group polarisation in Wales by the Nationalists is failing, you can only fool a small proportion of the people all of the time.
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At 5:25pm on 23 Jun 2009, Noah_sembly almost wrote:
Time I fear, for Welsh speaking folk to leave Wales.
The English language fanatics have taken over the appalling assembly, and are intent on making Englih the 'preferred' language. If you and your children have no wish to speak English, then look out.
Shame he didn't.
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Don't worry #8, you'll have all the Welsh you want, except you won't be able to use the language as a cudgel, as the English speakers will not produce a 21st century "not".....
..... you see, the future is blue, very democratic, very fair, and you will be able to purchase social housing exactly as your brothers and sisters in Manchester, or Glasgow, or Belfast.
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And they're off! Noah Sembly leading the charge, a man who has in the past been rapped for calling welsh-speakers 'inferior' (racism, surely?), and spouting the most inaccurate Welsh-hating claptrap whenever he can get to a keyboard. Closely followed by monomaniac one-man Plaid-hater (I mean one-man because his blog is literally that - he's the only one who comments n it), and the rest of them.
Stand by for national Welsh pointyheaded hobbyhorse-rider time, with tales of the ethnic cleansing of English speakers, the 'language cosh', forced Cyngahenedd composition, and the expulsion of Englisbh speakers by druids at harp-point.
Don't you anti-Welsh crackpots have anything useful to say? The same old paranoid drone, the same old lies, the same old allegations.
As a monoglot English speaker myself, I must say that the extremists I've seen - the ones with serious issues of cultural and linguistic hatred, superiority complexes and general bigotry are you lot.
Have none of you noticed that you share your rhetoric with the BNP, who also make their capital by claiming that the 'minority' has it better, runs the show, dictates our culture , that moslems want to destroy our culture and 'ordinary white people' are second class citizens, etc etc?
Honestly - you people have done enormous damage to this blog by mistaking it for a kind of graffiti wall of resentment and obsessive welsh-bashing.
Mind you - at least the subject f this post actually IS the Welsh language, unlike most of the ones you post your welsh-hating pap on.
As for Noah, who's made racist comments on BBC blogs before, I would't mind it if he really did leave Wales. And not because he speaks English, but rather because he demeans English with hate-filled drivel.
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#10,
A failed politician I am guessing .....
who doesn't appreciate other opinions .....
who did get one point correct, Plaid Cymru has despicable intentions, they would destroy our democracy for 30 pieces of undeserved political power, wilderness old chum, but unlike Churchill without a return.
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Re 11 What on earth are you on about matey?
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Well said Noah/Stonemason and you are not alone amongst the english speaking only majority who through apathy are going to be second clas citizens (already are) in this benighted part of UK. We have allowed a welsh speaking gang to garner all the top jobs (when not necessary as in BBC Wales) and no english only speaking welsh person is going to get into the great and good.I personally think the games over and King Rhodri with his Nationalist/Socialist government as got the PC into government and earning Queens Shilling whilst seeking to destroy the UK as viable institution. When they get the independance they want there will be mass exodus like the break up of India and thank god my children are out of this very unhappy and totally divided entity.
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Re 13 If you want to go on and on and on about independence matey...the least you could do is to learn how to spell the word.
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OK Point 1
Noah has said on at least one occasion that his contributions here are intended to poke fun and create dissension, sort of stirring rather than to be taken seriously. Certainly way ott best ignored as not a person to make serious comments generally.
Pont 2 - this LCO is approved by all parties in the National Assembly, thus its supported by the Welsh Conservatives, The Welsh Liberal Democrats, The Labour Party in Wales, Plaid Cymru and our single Independent member. Thus there is a consensus that the proper place for deciding language policy in Wales is through the National Assembly for Wales.
Point 3. Stonemason how do other bilingual countries manage to protect the right of language communities - perhaps you could shed some light on this. You are relentlessly negative and go completely overboard, rational debate requires that you moderate your excesses and if you have actual examples of how this very mild LCO, will remove rights, especially as there are no measures yet drawn up, it is merely giving the National Assembly power to legislate over a uniquely Welsh area of interest.
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Re 13 I didn't know that the UK was an institution.
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#16
Whatever one chooses to call it, its viability is now in question.
Perhaps he thinks that many of its leaders, or putative leaders, should be IN an institution.
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What frightens me is that Stonemason - apparently - was a soldier once. A man - who seems to detest anyone who thinks differently to him; and what's more doesn't understand that people can have legitimately held different opinions to him; and on the evidence of other threads on this blog, just refuses to answer questions, or in other words enter into debate - who had a gun!! Probably quite a large one.
However, isn't it heartwarming that we have a Prince of Wales who, despite living in abject poverty, is willing to tour our country for a WHOLE week, EVERY year.
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Noah, do you think the WAG will give us resettlement packages?
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Betsan, you said (with respect to the necessity for this particular LCO to go past the Grand Committee) that this was because it is a "contentious issue".
Well, so far at least, it has proved to be a remarkably uncontentious issue in both the Assembly and Westminster. There has been more talk about it being made more ambitious in scope than there has been about cutting it back.
Grandstanding is simply about playing to the gallery. Let Peter Hain have his day in the sun if it will make him happy - after all, that tan must be expensive to maintain. I'm sure some in the ranks will flock to join him in congratulating himself on having saved the Welsh language in a carefully choreographed mock battle with a few other Labour dinosaurs in the Commons. But some of us will remember Labour's response to the 1993 Act was that they would pass a better one when they got the chance. It's only taken them twelve years ... but better late than later.
I'd be prepared to put a little bet on the LCO getting through before the Queen's speech, rather than before Christmas.
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#15 wrote ..... how do other bilingual countries manage to protect the right of language communities
But we do this in the UK so there is no need to travel abroad, the various language groups have their language interests respected without the excesses of legislation. In Wales language is a political tool.
#18, I am quite sure that were the Prince of Wales stay away he would be criticised. The remainder is pt calling the kettle black, I repeat my #7 .....
..... attempts towards group polarisation in Wales by the Nationalists is failing, you can only fool a small proportion of the people all of the time.
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Languages survive not through legislation but because people want them to survive. The Irish Republic after nearly 80 years of independence has completely failed to revive Irish as a working language. A qualification in Irish might be necessary at 16 might be necessary for state employment or even to attend the University of Ireland but it has done nothing to revive the langauge. Basically because most Irish people in a world dominated by English do not see the logic of learning a language which can only be used in a very small country. One of the reasons for the massive inward investment into Ireland was because US investors knew that they were investing in an English speaking country with well qualified young people. An Ireland where most people spoke Irish would not have become the Celtic Tiger. The real issue with any Welsh language legisalation is how will it be implemented by any future Assembly. If it is handled sensibly then it should benefit the Welsh language. If on the other hand the minority decide as happened in Eastern Europe before and after the First World War that this is an opportunity to force people to speak Welsh then there could be real problems. Not only for the Welsh language but also for the Assembly as an institution. Unfortunately as many of the comments on thsi blog show from the extremes, rational debate on the Weslh langauge is impossible. The difficulty in reviving the langauge is clearly shown by the fact that even after 13 years of Welsh medium education the majority of students still sit Welsh at GCSE as a foreigh language not as a native language. Anyone having a conversation in Welsh with someone who left a Welsh medium school at 16 will soon pick up their limited knowledge of the language. Even S4C uses a pigeon Welsh in many of its programmes because it knows that many of its audience would not understand grammatically correct Welsh. There has been no debate about the LCO because at this stage the 80% who do not speak Welsh and probably have no intention of ever speaking or learning the language do not see that it has any relevance to the real issues facing them. This could of course all change if Welsh language activists and Plaid decide to use any new powers to create a pre 1914 Austro-Hungarian situation in Wales. Then the political fun will really start.
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re: 22 Benedik
You greatly overstate the case of language in the Celtic Tiger "One of the reasons for the massive inward investment into Ireland was because US investors knew that they were investing in an English speaking country with well qualified young people".
The "Celtic Tiger" was driven by
1. Low Corporate Tax as compared to the UK, France, Germany, Netherlands
2. EU aide to the Irish education and physical infrastructure
3. Irish government subsidies to US corporations such as Dell, Microsoft, and Intel, none of which cared about language any issues (Irish Gaelic or English) in its manufacturing as is evident in that they have now all now migrating to Poland and other Eastern European countries!
The truth is, granting Wales the right to legislate on its own language is a moral imperative. Once the Welsh Assembly has been granted the right to legislate on its own language by London (a very imperialistic arriangement this is!) then take your battle there.
re: 18 and 21
The Duke and Duchess of Cornwall are welcome to visit their farm in Carmarthenshire and tour Wales once a year, I am sure it will bring wonderful tax revenues into the country. But really, no Englishman can be a true Prince of Wales. I am in favor of reinvesting the title Prince of Wales into a decendent of the Aberffraw family, represented by the Anwyl family of Meirionydd, according to Burkes peerage.
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As a mono speaking Englishman I fully accept any argument on cultural grounds for preservation of language etc. Its part of peoples cultural identity and I do not have a problem with it.
There are economic realities made in #22 that I fully agree with, but it is well known that to control a people you take their culture away from them.
What is far more subtle is that controlling the way you hand it back to them. When it is seen as an imposition that is aligned to a political agenda of separation from the UK then we should all be concerned.
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9 - you see, the future is blue, very democratic, very fair, and you will be able to purchase social housing exactly as your brothers and sisters in Manchester, or Glasgow, or Belfast.
I very much doubt you would be able to buy any social housing under a regime lead by your Thatcherite heroes John Redwood and Daniel the NHS was a mistake Hannan. And if you could what about our brothers and sisters in Dublin, Paris, Rome Oh I forgot, those people are no brothers and sisters to a Britisher like you - one of these small-minded extremists (BNP, UKIP and the most extreme end of the Tory Party) who want to pull up the draw bridge and leave the European Union.
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RE Post number 10
Welcome to your nightmare Davethe home of three or four Welsh haters who need to spend more time working (nothing like free enterprise), reading and learning about the country they claim to live in and a lot less time blogging about their lonely obsessions. I am an ex-monoglot (I paid to have one to one tuition because business commitments get in the way of regular classes being an entrepreneur in rural Wales is challenging but extremely rewarding) and have got to point where I am starting to know how much I am missing. As you will see, they have nothing positive to offer about Wales let alone its languages and cultures. The rest of the bloggers, the rest of the country and indeed the rest of the world meanwhile gets on with the business of living in the real world.
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#26 Retunee & 10 Daverodway
I'm getting that deja vu feeling all over again! I predict that the postings on this issue will probably hit a record this time (approaching 200 I think) because the language is partly the issues this time as you point out which will give it legs it has not had before for a while here.
What to do?
Because firstly it will be concerned with the issues above and initially there will be a polite or close-to-polite debate of the issue - then quickly descend to the usual rabid imperialist rants and defensive counter postings by those who do not fear legislation on linguistic issues.
Although I see the LCO farce of sending it to one chamber, then another, then back again , then to somebody else and their uncle, a great undermining of devolution, which I feel will in the end drive the agenda for further devolution on a quicker pace.
Oh dear, oh my....
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As has been observed by many people you Nationalists are very quick, too damn quick for my tastes, to level the charge of racist at anyone who puts up contrary arguments against that unnecessary extra tier of government in Cardiff Bay and its concomitant language agenda. Such an attitude is typical of Plaid Cymru activists and their supporters who have not earned or won political power but have gained it via an unholy alliance with a moribund Labour Party.
Like thieves in the night they snuck in when the back door was left unlocked and now fight tooth and nail to hang on to their unearned prize.
Noah-assemblys blog expresses a growing recognition that the Assembly in Cardiff Bay is little more than a very expensive vehicle for a language obsessed minority; but it also provides a very good standard of living for an unnecessary political class and places on the shoulders of not only the Welsh taxpayer but also the English taxpayer an extra tier of government.
Noah-assembly also highlights the imposition of Welsh onto the English speaking majority in Wales (whether it is wanted or not). It maybe an unpalatable fact but the Welsh language, outside the tiny enclaves where it is the language of the street, is the language of choice for the majority in Wales. The natural language of the Welsh is English. And to prop up a moribund Welsh language with oceans of cash when social policies closer to people's needs are crying out for support is downright criminal
To most Welsh people the Welsh language in the modern world is as useful to their way of life as a lead weight is to a drowning man.
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#28 WilliamFitz
The natural language of the Welsh is English.
Bit of a contradiction that isn't it.
Can you please tell us where exactly the Welsh language is actually imposed onto the english speaking majority.
I would find it most interesting if you could, because I don't believe those people whould take it lying down, do you
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#28 Williamfitz:
After this I'll say no more, but...
"...outside the tiny enclaves where it (Welsh) is the language of the street..."
- 20% of the pop of Wales speak Welsh officially (other independent sources have it higher) - that is one out of evry five welsh person speaks it. That is not a 'tiny' minority, that's a substantial one.
"...English taxpayer an extra tier of government.." let them look to their own, reported today the fact that Charles the heir to the unelected head of state has cost taxpayers a whopping 3million extra tax-payers pound this year alone. Value for money?
"The natural language of the Welsh is English" - although sounds oxymoronic I do get the point, but less than four generations ago the majority in Wales spoke Welsh. Look to the figures of under 35s in Wales who speak Welsh - that is the future.
Welsh speakers are not treated more favourably in Wales than others - you can tell this because it is Welsh speakers that are sacked for speaking their natural tounge; Welsh speakers that are denied are disadvantaged when they become older and have trouble expressing themselves in care homes with monoglot english carers around them; Welsh speakers who are treated as second class citizens when they seek to use their language on a par with English.
Where is the prefenetial treatment of Welsh speakers? - its a myth, and it has been a failure to try and change opinions without using legislation. That's the next step. Has to be because there is now, no choice it seems.
And that's all on this from me on this strand. Promise.
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#28
"the imposition of Welsh onto the English speaking majority in Wales"
When have you ever felt imposed on by the Welsh Language?
How do you think it feels for Welsh speakers to have English thrust upon them 100% of the time?
"The natural language of the Welsh is English."
Read your history books, because you obviously haven't! Two centuries ago the vast majority of people in Wales spoke Welsh, many of the monoglot. A century ago half the people here spoke Welsh. Being part of the UK, England's first and last colony, decimated the Language. It was official policy to wipe out the Language for centuries. Two weak Acts of the UK Parliament in the second half of the 20th century have done little to arrest the decline, and the near extinction of the Language.
You speak as if YOU are threatened, when it fact it is people like you who threaten us and our Language.
The natural Language of Wales was Welsh until Wales was conquered, occupied, subjugated, and ruled by its more powerful neighbour - it remained the Language of the majority for centuries despite attempts assimilate our country. But we're still here.
Thankfully by today more enlightened attitudes than yours prevail, even in the UK government, for all its faults.
"the Welsh language in the modern world is as useful to their way of life as a lead weight is to a drowning man."
Who are you, who can't speak a word of OUR Language, to say that to US?
You have no conception of what it feels like to have people who speak of our Language in such dismissive and disparaging terms. It truly verges on a racist remark, and you should be ashamed of yourself, together with the person (I can't really think of an adjective which the BBC would allow to describe him) in comment #1.
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#31
Here we go again. Language verging on racism? Don't be so pathetically dramatic for goodness sake. Who am I? I'm a taxpayer who is helping to fund your minority language, that's who I am.
If shame is to be apportioned you should hurl great dollops of it at the politicians who pushed through a major change to a constitution on the basis of a shaming so called "winning margin" at the 97 Referendum. And please dont come back and say "one is enough in a democracy". It patently is not when it involves an alteration to a constitution (and I'm aware that it's an unwritten constitution).
It might be your aspiration but Wales has never been a de jure country. For over five hundred years Wales has shared a legal identity with England. The area now known as Wales was until the coming of the Romans a collection of warring tribes. They (the Romans) named and unified the country as far as Hadrians Wall under the name Britain. Now following two millennia of social evolution the culture of the majority and the preferred language of the Welsh is no different to that which exists in other regions of Britain.
#29 Billingualism when it is imposed whether it is wanted or not is an imposition. It is also a great waste of trees.
#30 If you wish to debate the merits or lack of them regarding the Windsor family I will take part but this thread is about the Welsh language and related issues. As for the rest of your post if you would only fund the language yourselves and take the extra burden of taxation off the English taxpayer I would have no quibble.
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Ahh - at times like this, dont you just miss Mapexx??
But seriously, this is the most obvious area where the Senedd should have powers and not Westminster
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#32 your knowledge of history is woeful.
"...take the extra burden of taxation off the English taxpayer.. "
and that would be you, in reality.
One wonders on what basis, if any, you claim to be Welsh, that is, if you are. Your comments would indicate that you are not.
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33 - I thought things were a bit calmer than usual.
It is merely ignorance and bigotry, without the extra froth.
32 is hilarious. He has no understanding of Welsh or British history. The years 410 to 1282 are oddly ignored and the Acts of Union of 1536 and 1543 are evidently a mystery to him.
Trying to argue with these people is like arguing with those who maintain the earth is flat or the moon is made of cheese. They have a debased understanding of reality and realities, which is rather endearing in a way. At least their manic blogging keeps them off the streets.
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Bryn #31
You ask:
When have you ever felt imposed on by the Welsh Language?
We in Pembrokeshire have - The 1993 Act has been imposed on us in a most heavy footed and draconian way, against strong local opposition.
Some Community Precepts are increasing by up to 25% to pay for it.
Having said that - its not the language its the legislation.
As Cilmyn says in #30 one out of evry five welsh person speaks it. That is not a 'tiny' minority, that's a substantial one
That minority is proud of its "own" language, there is a rich cultural heritage behind it.
Because of that pride the future of the language is secure, it doesn't need legislation or expensive QUANGO's.
But it must be remembered that Welsh is not the language of the majority - and the majority should not be disadvantaged, forced to adopt it, or pay unnecessary costs, at the whim of this minority.
Certainly we should avoid imposing costs on our wealth creators that is going to make them less competitive or put real jobs at risk.
Among those who know what is proposed, the subject is divisive, and they are in a substantial minority.
For most Welsh people what goes on in the Assembly is not worth bothering with.
But what is proposed is divisive with strong feelings on both sides - as the individual response to the consultation demonstrates;
http://www.assemblywales.org/bus-home/bus-legislation/bus-leg-legislative-competence-orders/bus-legislation-lco-2009-no10/nafw_lc5-wl_consutlation/nafw_lc5_wllco_individual-reponses.htm
There is no need for this legislation, this is not about the future of the Welsh Language, what its about is legislating to force the language onto those in the private sector who don't want to use it.
If a company finds use of the language is demanded or makes a profit they will provide it, if they don't then they will not incur unnecessary cost by doing so.
Market forces will do the job far better than legislation - and will cause a lot less aggro
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#32 WilliamFitz
I ask you once again Can you please tell us where exactly the Welsh language is actually imposed onto the English speaking majority.
I would find it most interesting if you could, because I don't believe those people whould take it lying down, do you
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#36 West-Wales
Talk about emotive language
"draconian"
"Some Community Precepts are increasing by up to 25% to pay for it."
Come clean, what's the increase in YOUR Council Tax as a result of this, in terms of £'s? Be specific, give us the precise details so that we can check up on the veracity of what you claim.
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RE 36
QUANGO's? I didn't realise West Wales was a grocer
Before commenting on another language, it is always a good idea to master one's 'own'.
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I dont think it's yet compulsory that you have to be Welsh to post on a BBC blog? I shake my head in wonder at Welsh Nationalist's delusions of grandeur. You nationalists and supporters might have got away with imposing devolution and its concomitant language agenda onto a region on a shaming and derisory winning margin but surely you haven't yet fully taken over the BBC?
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Well this particular LCO, to bring the thread back on track, will be put through the hoops before returning to Cardiff Bay, no doubt in disarray.
The Welsh Secretary Peter Hain said the Order would be debated by all MPs after the summer recess. It is the first time an LCO has been subject to such wide-ranging scrutiny since the bit-by-bit system of devolving extra powers was introduced in 2007, and reflects concerns about some aspects of the proposals. A clause in the Order to include organisations providing public services and receiving £200,000 a year from the taxpayer in any new language laws is causing particular disquiet
This will be around the time that Sir Emyr Jones Parry reports the findings of the All Wales Convention in November, a resolute No due to the majority of the electorate not understanding what they would be voting for.
This must be democracy at work.
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Ain't Google wonderful!
After just a few minutes any of us can find out virtually the entire history of Wales.
Well, let's just agree on "other peoples versions of the history of Wales".
All of which, to a "Welsh-hating", "Anti-Wales", "BNP supporting", "Plaid obsessed", racist, bigot like me, means absolutely nothing.
I've always preferred to deal with what's going on NOW, TODAY, and in the future.
Today we have an assembly of 60 members, all of whom we must assume wanted to be part of a devolved Wales. This must be so otherwise they just would not have put themselves up for selection. Thus we must assume that all 60 members (even the Tories) are at least fervent supporters of devolution, though many wish to see a completely independent Wales.
That is the situation I ( and I assume others) cannot accept. Because no 'safety margin' was in place for the SECOND devolution referendum, an extremely narrow majority for devolution was a 'winner take all' victory. This made the 'first past the post system used in general elections look tame indeed, it was in fact 'ultra first past the post' politics.
So, we have arrived with a situation in Wales where there is in fact a dictatorship of 60 members all in favpour of devolution (at least), with ABSOLUTELY NO OPPOSITION WHATSOEVER.
Why not stand in the next assembly elections I hear you ask. Let's be realistic about this shall we. What the hell chance has " Canton man in the street against devolution" got against the might of an entire 'government'full of devolution 'lackies' who know the system inside out.
THAT is why I suspect you get so many of 'us' determined to let our voices be heard, even on BBC blogs and fora.
The absence of any effective method of arguing against devolution is creating a bitterness and division in Wales which I'm sure many find both unfair and worrying. Unfortunately, the assemblie's overriding preoccupation with expanding Welsh language usage looks suspiciously like nothing more than vote-garnering. I would suggest that someone who has learnt Welsh is more than likely to vote not just in favour of the assembly but also for the nationalist party.
While this may be good news for them, I suggest that it is bad news for a Wales facing ever deeper divisions, and incidentally doesn't do much for democracy.
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Returnee #39
Sorry shouldn't shout - quango - acronym; variously spelt out as quasi non-governmental organisation, quasi-autonomous non-governmental organisation, and quasi-autonomous national government organisation.
Perhaps some of the words are a little long for you - but Google should help ;)
Bryn #38.
You well know we've been through this ad nauseum.
You also know the Draconian imposition of the 1993 Act on small Community Councils in this area of South Pembrokeshire is the reason I got involved in this Blog.
Here Community Councils in areas with nearly 100% English speakers have to employee translation facilities for everything - £70 per 1000 words, minimum £70.
Councillors and Clerks do not speak Welsh.
A simple newspaper advert which would have cost £50, will now costs £170.
(there is a facility for free translation up to 35 words, but the paper space is still double)
Road signs - Bilingual are estimated to cost 3 times more.
One community Council with a current precept of £8,000 is estimating that full annual translation cost will be around £2,000.
The question is what services are cut, or is the whole cost added to the precept.
The imposed Welsh Language Scheme imposes other constraints - displays, leaflets, even raffle tickets, and web sites, now have to be bilingual.
There are also requirements which will damage local communities and culture.
The Scheme and costs have to be implemented within two years.
The main point surely is, where there is a call for Bilingual services provide them - where there isn't, There isn't
Deductive logic is not a strong characteristic among some who blog here - but insults are certainly the main debating tactic.
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#32 WilliamFitz
I ask you once again Can you please tell us where exactly the Welsh language is actually imposed onto the English speaking majority.
I would find it most interesting if you could, because I don't believe those people whould take it lying down, do you
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# 34
What an arrogant post that is. Still I shouldn't be surprised. I've had sufficient experience of Welsh nationalist nonsense for it to be water off a duck's back so to speak. But just out of curiosity please point out where the post was "woeful".
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Re 43 Perhaps the placement of apostrophes are a little difficult for you, matey. I think you will find that this was No.39's point.
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Re 45
I see that WilliamFitz is the latest in a long line of Brit nats who will not/cannot answer questions when challenged. There you go ...
I don't think I'll bother with this thread, it's just another opportunity - isn't everything - to have a go at the Welsh language and Welsh speakers, and of course deny that they have any kind of prejudice!
Great new this week when it was announced that Tanni Grey-Thompson will be admitted into the Gorsedd of Bards at the National Eisteddfod in Bala, in August.
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#29 37 44
Well if Fitzwilliam won't or can't answer, can anyone else.
Can you please tell us where exactly the Welsh language is actually imposed onto the English speaking majority. any one
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#40 WilliamFitz
At least we know where the venom towards the Welsh Language appears to emanate from.. across the border, at some point in your life, if not right now. It is clearly OUR Language and not yours. We as the people of Wales should decide what measures are taken to help with its preservation.
#43 West-Wales
The question was: How much more council tax (community council precept) are you going to be paying personally as a result of measures relating to the Welsh Language LCO?
What on earth has it got to do with the 1993 Act, and what has that to do with the Welsh Language LCO?
As yet the LCO hasn't been approved. It might never be approved. When and if it is, a democratically elected Assembly of 60 members from all parties throughout Wales will decide what measures, if any, are required. What's the problem with that? The Assembly has a clear democratic mandate.
The time and the place to argue your point is when measures are proposed and debated in the Assembly. You have more chance of influencing the debate there, than you would have in Westminster, because most of them there haven't even heard of the Landsker, if they've ever even been to Wales.
Your hypocrisy and logical inconsistency amazes me. You condemn those of us who want differential, ie special, treatment within the UK (ie legislative devolution) for Wales because there are significant differences between England and Wales, yet you want special treatment for parts of south Pembrokeshire because it is distinct within Wales. You have a valid point, just as the pro-devolutionists do, but you only see it from your own standpoint.
Essentially what you want is the status quo, where power over the Language remains in an English-dominated legislature, which has presided over its decline and near extinction. One must conclude that you are happy for that decline to continue, or at least, as long as any measures taken don't affect you and yours.
One common argument by the arch-British unionists here is that minorities don't have rights. They claim that what the majority wants should override minority rights. Its called majority dictatorship. Over the years its led to many crimes against humanity, not only in Nazi-occupied Europe, but world wide, as seen, for example, in Rwanda, Cambodia, the Balkans, and Gaza.
What happens in most western democracies is that minority religions, languages, and cultures are constitutionally protected under the banner of human rights. Such protections are weak in the UK, and do not extend to the native languages which are under threat. English law allows abusive comments about the Language to be made which border on racial discrimination, and which are certainly highly offensive and objectionable. It is possible that the moderators could remove such comments on that ground as they clearly come within the House Rules of the BBC blogs, even though they may not infringe the law.
"We reserve the right to fail messages which
- Are considered likely to disrupt, provoke, attack or offend others
- Are racist, sexist, homophobic, sexually explicit, abusive or otherwise objectionable"
I am surprised that certain comments which fall into the 'offensive' and 'objectionable' categories have been allowed. I certainly find them offensive and objectionable.
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#48, it's a little late for me .....
#43 starts to answer the issue, when he writes .....
The imposed Welsh Language Scheme imposes other constraints - displays, leaflets, even raffle tickets, and web sites, now have to be bilingual. ............. The Scheme and costs have to be implemented within two years.
Where there is a financial implication an imposition can be argued.
A clause in the LCO to include organisations providing public services and receiving 200,000 pounds sterling a year from the taxpayer, will be discriminatory in that small businesses, located other than in the predominantly welsh speaking areas of Wales, will not be able to tender except at a financial disadvantage.
..... early start etc.
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Re 50
It seems I can't help myself ...
Oh, save us from fascist raffle tickets!
And:
"Where there is a financial implication an imposition can be argued."
- as a philosophical statement, that needs a good deal of work done on it.
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#51
It was last year when a commentator here suggested that language services might be elective in nature, as it is with the Inland Revenue, no fuss, such services could be refined. In this case the additional costs of communication could be reduced to a level that protects social institutions, in this case a language, without a financial imposition.
The objections to such a system were alarming, the problem of elected services is that in private services the business can elect not to enter such an agreement, simply because the business doesn't generate sufficient income to warrant a business case to support the service.
With this particular LCO, a business in Birmingham would be prevented from tendering to supply goods to the Assembly because the value exceeded 20,000 pounds sterling, the same business that through its employees taxes and the companies corporation tax supports Wales to the tune of 9 billion pounds sterling each year.
This particular LCO demonstrates poor governance through an attempt to impose of sanctions on an undeserving population. Were the LCO passed by Westminster in its present state a legislative cudgel would be handed to the political class that would begin the balkanisation of Wales.
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#50 TheStonemason
The imposed Welsh Language Scheme imposes other constraints - displays, leaflets, even raffle tickets, and web sites, now have to be bilingual. ............. The Scheme and costs have to be implemented within two years.
I think the word-- bilingual-- might have a bearing here, you then have a choice on which language to read, as Welsh speaking people want.
I still ask the question. Anyone.
Can you please tell us where exactly the Welsh language is actually imposed onto the English speaking majority?
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West Wales name your community council if this is the case then they are incompetent.
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To those arguing about the cost of bilingual forms, liturature etc, into Welsh.
Why do they not argue against the translation of the same items into the other languages of the world that they now do in this country.
Government Departments do it, Councils do it, road signs in the North of wales are now having Polish on them.
I am sure where there are now Eastern Europians living in different areas of Wales, official bodies have to isuue information in thier respective languages.
Companies translate many diferent languages on their liturature and instructions for goods.
I don't hear of the ani Welsh language brigade complaining about that.
Therefore why can't the Welsh speaking people have in thier own country the same rights imigrants have.
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Perhaps I've got it all wrong but the welsh language fanatics and all their supporter (but cannot say openly) in BBC Wales/S4C are pushing for LCO to create further opportunities for useage of language. The Labour Party as Noah said is split down the middle between the the Quisling faction,i.e. King Rhodri and the anti-nationalists based on english only speakers. King Rhodri and his mates are frightened to death to be "blindsided" by the Welsh Nats in the welsh speaking heartlands by seemingly not supporting welsh/forcing it down everybodies throats and hence this dancing onpins in Parliament. Noah you are right in that the 60 politicos down the Bay are now well and truly inside the tent and can only see their prospects improving by greater powers to a totally flawed body which is not fully understood by their constituents. At a time when the welsh economy (in line with every other) is under such stress,even with the still spending of public money at unprecedented levels the additional costs through LCO must be mad. Just finished Chris Mullin's book on his time as MP/Junior Minister and it is brilliant and in his opinion the gap between the political classes/ordinary people has never been wider. He referred to defeat of proposal for Assembly for North East of England,which he said was the never ending conversationional point for politicos,but he nor any other NE MP had ever had constituent wish to speak to him about issue. The same applies here but BBC Wales needs "devolution" for jobs/influence and keeping very nice lifestyles in Llandaff/Llanishen and other leafy suburbs. On a wider point read the book about "reality" of arranged marriages from sub-continent,growth of seperate laws for "privileged" religions,immigration rackets for "students" from sub-continent etc but the politicos did'nt have the guts to do anything. The reason being they were (including PM) afraid of being called racists,even though they knew there is a monumental problem about immigration. Its leaving a gap for growth of BNP,something we all should be worried about.
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#48
alfsplace1986
I have already given one major example of imposition but you have chosen to ignore it. Let me also say that there is no compunction on this or on any other MB to answer a question in a way which the questioner (you) would like.
Furthermore it does not require a dictionary definition of imposition to understand what is going on in Wales.
In the area of what is now known as Wales, the area in which I grew up, there was more chance of coming across the Chief Rabbi eating a bacon butty on the town hall steps than coming across a Welsh speaker or seeing road signs which were in anyway different to those that existed in Bristol, Liverpool or London. That example to the greater extent is a paradigm for vast swathes of Wales, excluding possibly the tiny enclaves of Welsh language usage.
It is an imposition when you attach a Welsh name to a town that has been known for countless generations by its English name; it is an imposition and leads to alienation when new street names are given Welsh names which are non descriptive to the English speaking majority.
And the imposition and cost to the customer is writ large in banks. Ask next time you go into a bank in south east Wales how often the Welsh option is taken at automated money machines or how often anyone asks to have their business conducted through the medium of Welsh? In south east Wales the answer to both those questions, I would hazard a guess, is never.
Now take into consideration the paucity of democratic values in the 97 Referendum, the triumphalism of language obsessed nationalists, what I have written above and in my other posts and you have a fairly comprehensive definition of imposition. I hope that helps.
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We still need far more use of Welsh. The BBC has only one Welsh medium radio station, we need two. Other countries with a similar number of language speakers have far more radio stations than us in Wales. good news about the Federal College though, should provide a useful boost for the language.
The use of Welsh by companies who gain large public subsidies is still way too poor. If my taxes go to support these companies, I should be able to have a service provided in my first language
On another point, whys is the standard of the English written by the anti-Welsh brigade on this blog so poor?
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#49
Bryn-Teilo
The part of that post addressed to me amounts to little more than the ramblings of a very sensitive fantasist. "Venom"? Good god man get a grip. And border!!! What border? I've never passed through any customs or had to produce a passport on my travels round the country.
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#47
FiDafydd
No I am not a "Brit nat". I am an English speaking Brit whose language and culture was imparted with my mother's milk. It was further enhanced by education, world travel, Earl Grey tea and hot buttered toast spread thinly with Marmite.
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#57 WilliamFitz
If you actually go into a bank or other institution or store or restaurant etc and ask for services in Welsh. I am afraid you will be given firstly a blank glare and then a grudging embarasing appology that they are not able to do it.
You are then made to feel you are in the wrong for speaking it. Therfore is it any wonder Welsh speakers are timid about asking for the services in Welsh. when they have to put up with such intimidation, because that is what it is.
Tell you what, swallow your bigotry, learn a few phrases and go out and use them, see what response you all get. Then you might realise what it is like and be more sympathetic.
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#59 WilliamFitz
There is a border it is called Offas Dyke. It was put there by the people from the other side of it, who didn't want us Welsh invading them.
The poor darlings were afraid of us, still are it seems.
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46 re 43
Thanks for the remark. I was almost too embarrassed to comment on this. How can you attempt to engage with people who dont know the difference between an acronym and an apostrophe? I was clearly being too harsh on grocers, or grocers as they are known by our Welsh-haters. I suspect that a lot of the anti Welsh venom stems from their inability to articulate themselves in any language.
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Re 63. It must be very difficult for them to be semi-literate in their only language. Poor dears, or poor dear's as they would say.
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re 58...should be "why is"...lol..typo
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RE 63
Should read: "...grocers, or grocer's..."
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Oh dear... who let the nationalist pedants out? Trying to muddy the waters are you lads :) You can always spot when the language activists are on the ropes! It's either "anti-Welsh" this or "Welsh hater" that... and when that runs dry it's attack the spelling and grammar of all those that oppose them.
It's the internet boys... not a thesis.
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#67
Cardiffian2008
Where have you been, hope everything is alright, 26 May last one. We have missed your humour, he he.
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Re 67 I wasn't attacking them , matey. I was wondering why they have such poor English. After all, this is my second language, and I can still write better English than them.
Research proves that a bilingual education has many benefits. Perhaps they were educated solely in English.
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#61
alfsplace1986
The last time I used an ATM in south east Wales, like everyone else, I didnt have to ask it which language I wanted to use I just pushed a button marked English. Obviously it wasn't as technically sophisticated as the banks you frequent.
And I do know a few phrases in Welsh - its truly amazing what can be achieved when oceans of money are thrown away in support of the language - and many more in French and Italian. But if I were to use my few very expensive Welsh phrases in my bank the teller would probably think I was a Sunderland supporter.
And invectives such as bigot and racist from the lips of Welsh nationalists have no real meaning - they are so much dross.
Well I never Offa's Dyke is a border!!! And there was I thinking it pathway kept open by The Ramblers Association. Luckily for all of us, nature has no truck with nationalism.
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RE 65 and 66
well what a prize pair of muppets :) Welsh language elitism at its err... worst. Making grammatical errors whilst mocking the the grammatical errors of the 'lesser than us' monoglots! You couldn't make it up :)
RE Alfsplace 68:
May the 26th huh? Has it really been that long? Nice if not a little creepy that you noticed.
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dai7900
On the basis of your final question at #58, words like pot and kettle spring to mind.
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re: 69
Keep em coming Dai... these are some real gems :)
If ever there were a good advert for keeping power over the language at Westminster in unbiased hands, as opposed to running the risk of letting rabid, elitist nats in Cardiff bay get their hands on it, then you are it.
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Re 70
Typing blogs with your lips does indeed explain a lot. I find fingers are a lot swifter and (usually) avoids typos.
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71
Sorry old fruit, a typo is not a grammatical error. This is not elitism, it is a simple desire to see the Queen's English expressed in a lucid manner, rather than 'English as she is spoke'.
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When are we going to get a second Welsh language radio station? Good news about the Federal College...should be a big boost for Welsh medium education.
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Cardiffian...apart from a couple of typos my English is fine. It isn't semi-literate like so many of the posters here. By the way what percentage of my licence fee goes to support their nonsensical ramblings? Even if it is only a penny, I want it back!!!
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#36 West-Wales
The Council Tax for a Band D property in Pembrokshire is currently 839.04 p.a.
The community precept for Tenby (Town Council) is 55.13. This is by far the largest community precept in the county. Some are very small. An additional 25% would amount to 13.78 p.a. per property. I'm unable to provide the pdf link, as these blogs won't allow it.
Some 10.9% of Tenby's population of 4,763 are Welsh speaking (about 520 people). The Town Council's Welsh Language Scheme under the 1993 Act was approved in November 2007 - note that it took fourteen years to implement Westminster legislation regarding the Welsh Language (that is not an implied criticism of Tenby, per se, as it is typical of many other places) and indicates the necessity and urgency for our Language to be the responsibility of the people of Wales, and no-one else.
http://www.thelocalchannel.co.uk/tenby/Council/Info/page744907.aspx
I welcome that Council's adoption of a Scheme which will allow all its inhabitants to use whichever language they choose more equitably. Its been a long time coming and is but a small step in giving Welsh a higher profile and status within Wales. I congratulate them and on my next visit to Tenby I will endeavour to use the Welsh Language as much as possible.
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#73 Cardiffian wrote:
'...power over the language at Westminster in unbiased hands'
That's just it! It isn't unbiased. Its an overwhelmingly English institution, to which a few tens of Scots MPs were added in 1701. I don't expect the 50 million people who live in England to care about the Welsh Language, simply because it isn't theirs. It doesn't concern them. Historically that Parliament did every thing it could to wipe out the Language and nearly succeeded. Even in the democratic age it has done very little. Two very weak Acts in a century. That's appalling.
How would the people of England feel if their language was legislated for in France - would that be 'unbiased'? They would rightly consider it an outrage. You allow your bigotry to override your common sense. The Welsh people, and no other are best placed to make decisions about the Welsh Language. As a resident of Cardiff you would have your democratic say, like the rest of us.
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Cardiffian2008
Na, Nothing creepy about it, I've been thinking and hoping you might have moved to your beloved country accross Offas Dyke. I just looked back on the user profiles.
#70 WilliamFitz
Unlike you I don't talk to my bank machine. The bank Assistants in your bank must be from the same area as Tonny Benn, who asked Betsan if she was Bulgarian when she was broadcasting in Welsh.
Shows how much you know about Welsh history the doesn't it look up about King Offa and his dyke
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keep em coming Cardiffian....usual total nonsense from you, matey.
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Re Cardiffian. Thursdays must be day release day at the asylum in Cardiff
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78
I was the Chair of a Community Council in Ceredigion a while ago. As a financier, I took an especial interest in our budget and over the five years when I was closely involved in setting the Precept, we always kept its rise at or below the RPI. I have just been looking at our old budgets and it transpires that the bi-lingual element in our costs typically accounted for 2-3% of total costs; that is having a translation service at our meetings and some Welsh in our advertisements. Bilingual advertisements are typically 50-67% larger than monolingual ones and even if double the size, you will find that local newspapers do not charge three times as much, but slightly less than double. All writing (bi-lingual minutes and so on) was done by the Clerk and indeed the bi-lingual element there often related to a translation into English. Being bi-lingual was seen as a public service and a pleasure, rather than a burden, as it usually is in advanced countries.
I apologise if the intrusion of facts may spoil the conspiracy theories of some of our co-bloggers, but they do have their charms.
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#79 '1701' should read '1707' of course.
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Re:79
I totally appreciate your point of view but I have 2 points of my own in response.
- I'm not entirely convinced based on what I've seen recently that some down in the bay wouldn't happily exploit the language as a political tool. Therefore any further powers that might enable these people to do that should, in my opinion be kept as far away from them as possible. Illogical I admit, but probably a necessary evil until some down the bay have matured and mellowed out of their self-righteous anti-english hatred... otherwise they'll end up cutting off their noses to spite their face so to speak. They'd end up alienating the vast majority of us in this country. Language can be a very effective political weapon and I dont really trust them not to use it.
- As for having my democratic say... one could argue that the set up of the WAG in the first place and also the nationalists jumping into bed with Labour is not wholly democratic. If we look at the evidence of the past then I'm not convinced we'd get our democratic say once language powers were handed over. It's a shame because if there were no nationalists with personal vendettas against the english and the english language then I'd trust them to just get on with and do the right thing for the Welsh language. As it is, it's akin to arming a small african nation with F15 fighter jets.
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"I apologise if the intrusion of facts may spoil the conspiracy theories of some of our co-bloggers, but they do have their charms."
Nice!
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27
You could be right. We're well on the way to a record number of postings and the magic 200 is looming into sight.
My only fear is the damage being done to the English language by our friends whose fingers are stuck in Offa's Dyke.
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RE 81 & 82
So fanatical and wound up you had to post twice huh? Oh and copying my phrases too I see. My you nationalists are gracious in defeat :)
Why dont you take a leaf out of Bryn_Teilo's book. He's actually engaging in a debate. No elitism, pendanticism or nastiness from him but still getting his point across and maybe even converting a few people. You on the other hand are turning people against you.
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85
'cutting off their noses to spite their face so to speak'
Either this refers to a group of people, each with their own nose, but sharing a single face or it is another example of a rather alarming ignorance about what people actually think and do.
When your neighbour is seventeen times your size and you are in a minority at home, it makes good sense to make your case in a rational manner. People might dispute this, but the groundswell in support for real devolution since 1997 (let alone 1979) and the general public acceptance and support (sorry boys, facts) for some measure of equality for the Welsh language (populations of a few thousand in Scandinavia have far more rights than given to Welsh under the 1967 and 1993 legislation) demonstrates that rational engagement by people with a positive message rather than hatreds are winning the day.
History is on the side of humanity, history
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Ahem, typo time again re 89
This should read:
History is on the side of humanity, history is on the side of the enlightenment, history is on our side.
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#74
Returnee
You are obviously not into metaphor old bean. Pity. It adds a little bit of colour to language, much more so than dry, boring statistics which nationalists constantly use to make spurious points.
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#87 Returnee
Just the Dyke
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91
My dear Fitz, I know my metaphors. It is supposed to be 'cutting off their noses to spite their faces'. I'm am being a pedant as it is a gentle amusement.
As Tennyson might have put it:
Grammar to right of them,
Spelling to left of them,
Misquotes in front of them
Blogged at by blunder
Stormd at with words on screens
While grown men want to scream
They that had fought these reams
Came thro the bores of bias
Back from the words of weans
They who agree with them
Now grew in number
Some do want to engage in dialogue as 88 rightly says, but it has to be a dialogue on both sides.
I prefer to reason why than to do or die.
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re 91.Matey, I prefer argument based on facts to argument based on alleged metaphors.
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Returnee #39
Aphostophe in my #36 was in error apologies for #43
Thanks for the enlightenment Dai7900 in #46
My post in #36 made the point its not the language its the legislation
Perhaps your comment in #39
Before commenting on another language, it is always a good idea to master one's 'own' was inappropriate don't you think.
Bryn #49 & 78
Well your getting there - the legislation imposing schemes on town and Community Councils costs taxpayers money, serves no useful purpose, but does generate lots of waste paper.
We can go on and on about this :)
This post is about the language LCO, My position, with which you apparently disagree is that it is unnecessary, if a business finds a need to provide a Welsh language service it will do so, if it doesn't it shouldn't be made to.
Lyn # 54
West Wales name your community council if this is the case then they are incompetent
Oh dear - I'm sure your friends "have ways of making me talk".
Understand the estimate quoted was the lowest of 3 from independent sources.
What has been left out of this one is the contingency for activists testing the system!!!!
Sorry all, but away at present, hope to be back to annoy you in a couple of days.
Blackberries are marvelous but hard work!!
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Sorry West-Wales unless you name the council then we can't verify what you are claiming. They have been badly advised at best if what you are saying is the case. Even if what you are saying is correct then the proportion is only high because the council doesn't seem to spend much money on anything, the cost to the public per head is negligible. You certainly can't base your case on that claim as it seems to be an extraordinary set of circumstances.
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It would seem, on the strength of the evidence of your posts on this topic, that you Welsh nationalists are self appointed arbiters of English usage. Whatever next?
I'm sure you'll think of something, some award, some decoration, some citation (in Welsh of course) in praise of you all; to be read out by Rhodri Morgan from the gravy train station in Cardiff Bay.
I realise that some of you Welsh nationalists see yourselves as superior to the English; but even so some of you have the gall to criticise others (mostly those of an English perspective) while making similar grammatical solecisms in your own writings. It beggars belief.
Before any of you hit the key board just give thought to this little bit of doggerel:
There's so much bad in the best of us
And so much good in the worst of us
That it hardly becomes any of us
To talk about the rest of us.
#80 alfsplace1986
I dont talk to my "bank machine" when in south east Wales as I told you at #70, I do as the locals do and first tap the screen for the English language.
And I do appreciate Tony Benn's mistake (sorry Betsan) but the Welsh language does tend to grate on the English ear.
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#97 William Fitz wrote:
'..the Welsh language does tend to grate on the English ear'
Another of those near-racist remarks.
You should read the doggerel you quoted - to yourself.
I don't think Tony Benn would find your remarks amusing either. I'm sure he wouldn't agree with you. Why don't you email him to ask his opinion and let us know his response?
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That quote was in context to what was put to me by alfspace1986 my over sensitive amigo, not for you to quote out of context.
You should ask Betsan Powys what Mr Benn said to her after he mistook her for a Bulgarian, not ask me to get in touch with him for his views on which language he thinks the most melodious.
From now on in I am going to read closely every disparaging word you write about we English; and if I perceive anything derogatory it will immediately be labeled racist and reported to John Redmond.
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re 99 Does John Redmond still write Brookside? Is he an expert on Welsh politics? As someone said on this blog " reading this blog is like watching monkeys through the grille at the zoo"
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I really used to enjoy Brookside, pity it finished. Is John Redmond related to Anita Redmond who used to be on the Generation Game with Bruce Forsyth? Do you remember Terry on Brookside?
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Didn't Anita Redmond marry Bruce Forsyth? Perhaps we should report pro- Welsh language remarks to our Brucie
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mea culpa, mea culpa, mea culpa. It should have been of course, the Welsh bete noir, and much maligned MP, Mr John Redwood.
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#99
Are you a Bulgarian by any chance?
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I thought that David Gibson Watt was much better than John Redmond. Minister for Housing, Welsh affairs and imported all those bananas, What a man!!!
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It was said, by Daniel O'Connell, the Irish 'Emancipator', of the Tory PM Sir Robert Peel that, 'his smile was like a silver plate on a coffin'.
That always reminds me of John Redwood, one of the few members of the Commons who I think has even less charm than Brown. Thankfully Redwood rarely smiles. Then there's Mandelson... he's definitely in the running for a charm deficit award without waiting for 2012. He'd get the bronze. In any other country he'd get gold, but there's stiff competition here.
In an all-Wales final how far would we have to look? .... imo Kinnock would be in with a good chance of a medal.
I think its a shame that personality issues matter, but they do. Both Redwood and Hague were appointed as Welsh SoS. I disagreed fundamentally with many of the policies of both, yet one is far more likeable and personable than the other.
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At #104 Bryn_Teilo writes:
"Are you a Bulgarian by any chance?"
Sorry to disabuse you but Im not a Bulgarian. I'm an English speaking Brit who like the little boy in the Hans Andersen tale who saw that the King has no clothes, can clearly see that the Assembly in Cardiff Bay is an undemocratic expensive sham.
It benefits primarily a non representative political class whose hidden language driven agenda is to sever the sustaining link with England. Still, I suppose such a disastrously economic notion, if achievable would make a sensitive soul like you deliriously happy.
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#107 WilliamFitz wrote:
'..hidden language driven agenda is to sever the sustaining link with England. Still, I suppose such a disastrously economic notion, if achievable would make a sensitive soul like you deliriously happy.'
Its unwise to attribute motives to individuals without direct evidence.
Do you have a 'hidden agenda'?
I've summarised my primary reason for seeking self-determination for Wales many times, but read my #54 in 'What did I miss?' where I spell it out. There is no hidden agenda.
Primarily I want to live in a libertarian democracy where my rights and liberties, and those of my fellow citizens, yours included, are safeguarded. I also want to live in a well-governed and prosperous society. Neither Wales nor the entire UK is well-governed. Most people would not take issue with that statement. Wales has never been prosperous and has no prospect of improving under the current system.
I would like to see a greater status and profile for the Welsh Language in Wales. All the main political parties in Wales are agreed on that, so there's no hidden agenda. It makes sense that responsibility for the Language should lie in Wales itself, in a democratically elected Assembly which effectively represents the interests of all of us, the minority who speak it, and the majority who are unable to do so, rather than in a Parliament which doesn't have the time, or the inclination, to do much about it. The Language is an issue for us in Wales, and no-one else.
As it appears you no longer live in Wales (correct me if I'm wrong) I can't see that the Language should a concern or an issue for you at all.
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Your laudable aspirations as stated in the first two sentences of the third paragraph are universal and not dependant on language or ethnicity.
The extent to which the UK has or has not been badly governed will be determined within the next twelve months. That is the democratic way.
In your perception Wales has never been prosperous.
Well, as far as I'm concerned the portion of the national wealth (via the Barnett Formula) that Wales gets is very generous and provides a standard of living for the many that most people would not quibble about. Lose the Barnett Formula and you would get a very rude awakening. There are also many affluent suburbs of Cardiff and Newport that appear to be doing very well from the status quo.
As far as I'm concerned the major mistakes of the Labour government have been the Iraq War and re Wales the fundamental change to a constitution that occurred when devolution was pushed through on a shaming so called winning margin.
In view of the undemocratic inception of the Assembly and the resultant push for more Welsh language usage that followed on, it does does not make sense to me at all to allow nationalists to impose further their language and culture on the majority English speakers in Wales; and I doubt that they are "unable" to learn the language. It's more the case that they have no urge or need to do so.
While the English tax payer is helping to fund all your social realities, including the language issue, then I and millions of my fellows do have a say on all issues related to Wales.
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And would you please bare in mind that the Newport Monmouthshire area of what is now Wales voted 65% against devolution in 97. And as for an hidden agenda: at the time of the second referendum in 97 nationalists and their Labour Party supporters kept their language and independence aspirations(self determination?)well under raps.
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Are you a nudist? Am I "bare in mind", I don't think so. Are "raps" a reference to Michael Jackson? I think that we should be told.
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What are your 'language aspirations", Fitz?
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And I think you should tell the world and his wife of your failed attempt to join the comedy circuit.
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Get a dictionary and some English lessons.
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Your posts give an indication of an intellect that is bordering on the adolescent. Grow up, and if you can, address the substantive points in the blogs. But I've a feeling that you are incapable of doing so.
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You don't make any substantive points worth responding to.
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As the self appointed arbiter of English usage you are wasting your time on this blog. Why not apply for the vacancy at Janet and John books. The adolescent standard of your posts on this blog show that you are supremely qualified for the position. But be sure to ask the editor if he would kindly not use words of more than two syllables when replying.
I'll leave you with the childish pleasure of having the last word. Bye, bye little man, Sleep tight.
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I always find that people who can't be bothered to look up words in dictionaries write nonsense. You prove this rule.
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Well, I for one think you're English is very good WilliamFitz! You make a lot of very good comment's.These Nats are ruining Wales.We could all do without there daft comment's. I blame a lot of there nonsense on to much indoctrination at welsh schools like Rhydfelen. Look at all the BBC staff who have been there. All of then Nats to.
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#118 and #119
You pair, along with other petty nationalists on this blog, are some of the most childishly crass individuals I have ever had the misfortune to come across. I honestly do feel sorry for the pair of you. You are obviously victims of a Welsh medium education.
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