"The Davies Principle"
Or perhaps that should be "the T.C. Principle".
David T.C Davies, Conservative MP for Monmouth, revealed to the audience at tonight's All Wales Convention event in the town's Leisure Centre, that he'd a flash of inspiration on the train on the way home from London.
First came the shame and horror of realising that in his own view, MPs no longer have a moral authority to do anything. "The guiding hand of Westminster" as his fellow panelist Adam Price MP put it, "has been well and truly caught in the cookie jar". The audience cheered.
Then came the cunning plan. David Davies has asked a former local Labour candidate to choose two or three other local, non-Conservative people to sit on an in independent panel that will review their MP's each and every receipt.
From tomorrow David Davies will invite anyone who fancies the job to come forward. He'll have no role in appointing them but once formed, he will face the panel and reveal - if needs be justify to them - every receipt he's ever submitted as an MP: office costs, staff costs, allowances, the lot.
They will have his permission to contact the Fees Office if they want to check up on him, contact the local paper if they want to shop him.
From then on in he'll meet them once every two months and continue the process of revealing to them and discussing with them every receipt. Once the party leaders agree on a system that is acceptable and transparent, the panel may want to disband. It may want to carry on scrutinising his expenditure. He'll abide by the panel's decision. Their word will be final.
Why is he doing this? Is he joining the hairshirt race Ann Widdecombe warned against?
He says not. He simply can't wait until the authorities work something out. He can't operate without trust and moral authority until what could, he suspects, quite possibly be the beginning of the next financial year.
So there you go: the Davies Principle.
It must be better than the principle by which one of Adam Price's ancestors, a Liberal politican, claimed his fellow politicans lived:
You get in to get on. You get on to get honours. You get out to get honest.
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~50~RS~)
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Betsan
David Davies' proposal sounds like a 'citizen's panel.' I listened to 'Today in Parliament' R4 on Tuesday night. A female MP suggested something similar to restore public confidence. Once she uttered the words 'citizen's panel' she was immediately jeered (not cheered) and the idea instantly dismissed by the speaker. They just don't get it! Last week somebody - Brown - Speaker Martin - or the three main party leaders should have immediately appointed an independent audit committee to start the job the very next day. Offices, computers, phones allocated. 9.00am the next morning the process should have commenced. Instead they've let it drift. I say this knowing full well they were ordered by the courts last year to release this information, following the campaigning by Heather Brooke for the last five years. She deserves credit - but doesn't seem to get much from the media. The Daily Telegraph seems to be chalking this one up for themselves. Their attempts to defend themselves are laughable. We can all see through it. It will boil down to them either admitting they were corrupt - or - incompetent. Which will they choose?
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message 1....
In agreeing in principle with your analysis, of Davies's and the female, unnamed MP, pretty sensible notion of a 'citzens' panel, it may howver be not taken up in the course of evens, as the greatest test of the probity of our Honourable(?) members is soon to be enacted.
The general election.
Somehow I fear there will be a dreadful backlash to all of this.
If it is not a absolute collapse of the vote, with record low levels of turnout, then I can see it meaning new Members of Parialament reflecting far more drastic views than we are normally used to.
Maybe though, we may get a terific next session, one that blows away the grubby and mistrusted.
I wait with interest.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
While I would normally say that I disagree with everything that David Davies says - for once I agree with him.
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message 3...
which has disappeared...
I am pretty certain why this message has been taken down, however, with the potential for a far right leaning next government, unless by some
miracle the OLD Labour voters turn out en masse, in fear of such a happening, then those who moderate off messages such as that, may live to regret their decisions.
I would say they are playing into the hands of those who deride and abhor free speech.
As the message was a personal assessment of the meeting he/she attended, I could see nothing in the message that could be taken as off thread, or in any other way objectionable, other than it trod on some one's sensitivity.
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The Davies Principle will go down in political circles as the .....
"let my enemy's be my judge".
Take care DD because some of your judges will be less than honest with you.
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I too saw message 3 before it was removed and am very dissapointed with the BBC for removing it! It was heavily caveated at the end stating something like 'I hope I am wrong in my comparison' but irregardless of that it was totally justified based on similarities of the terminology used!
Adam Price is now on a regular basis letting his more extreme nationalist tendancies get the better of him and leaving himself open to the sort of comments that legendaryadvocet made. In a country of free speech this would be allowed! Do we still live in a country of free speech? BBC mods you tell us
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We've heard a lot about it being 'the system' at fault, meaning the MPs' expenses system. IMO it much more fundamental.
It was alluded to on one of last night's BBC news bulletins. The fundamental issue lies in the nature of the UK's constitution, or really the lack of one. In other democratic systems sovereignty ultimately lies with the people, but not in the UK. Here, sovereignty lies in an abstract concept called, 'the Crown in Parliament', essentially meaning that power lies at the top. There is a lack of democratic control over government and parliament, and a lack of accountability. General elections cannot solve that, as the electorate can only essentially vote the same people back in.
The result is an arrogance and abuse of power. We are witnessing it right now. Neither can the legislature cannot hold the executive to account sufficiently; it has worsened since Thatcher and Blair. The courts cannot interfere, as they are subservient to the will of 'the Crown in Parliament'. There is no supreme court which can insist that the constitution is upheld or that unconstitutional legislation can be struck down - as there isn't a written constitution.
As Parliament makes its own rules, then its difficult to hold them to account. The police are reluctant to intervene and when they do, the outcome is almost always that no action is taken, unless there is evidence of fraud or corruption. The same applies to the Inland Revenue. 'Independent' reviews/inquiries cannot be trusted as they fall under the will of Parliament and report either to Parliament or to the executive (the PM). How many whitewashes have there been during the last decade?
The outcome is frustration and disillusionment with the political process. Turnout at elections fall. Politicians are held in contempt.
Unless fundamental constitutional reform takes place, the problem will continue in perpetuity.
David Davies is merely tinkering. I would never take him seriously.
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In the midst of gloom and doom .....
I have just read the amazing confession by Rhodri Morgan (Western Mail) who said:
"If you want to drag negativism in relation to Plaid out of me I would say this... There has never been a worse time to promote the idea that small independent countries do better than large countries with devolved set-ups as we have."
Mr Morgan contrasted the experience of recession-hit nations, such as Ireland and Iceland, with Wales, saying: "We get the best of both worlds."
Whether David Davies is merely tinkering, as brynt41 states, at least the man is tinkering in the right direction.
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I thought that his interview both in terms of content and tone this morning on the radio was excellent. Sadly in complete contrast the comments and actions of some MPs of my own party,the Labour Party who seem to have completely forgotten that being a true democratic socialist involves upholding certain moral standards both in your private and public life.
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message 9 and 10....
I have a different slant on all politicians, with very few exceptions...
First, their mouths move,.. therefore they are lying, or obfuscating or, if their hand moves to shake yours, count your fingers when they release your hand, or you may find your wedding ring, wrist watch, and one or two fingers, going into their pockets.
Yesterday I saw one apparently genuine MP, the member for Hove. She lives in London but makes no claims whatsoever.
How many can say that?
We have AM's living a short distance by car, or public transport, from the Senedd, yet claim thousands for their pied-e-terre in Cardiff.
They are all on at least twice the national average for Wales, but feel they are hard done to.
I would give them less than that average,the working class median, no more, for at least the first year of their attendance to the Senedd, then raise their salary commensurate with the value of the work they have performed over that first year.
A guarantee, in my mind, that you would get committed people in the legislature, whose reason d' etre was to serve their constituents and not themselves.
Government IS service, not a means to feather your nest, at public expense, and all the talk from Davies and others of his ilk only serve to convince me they are hopeful the gravy train will not hit the buffers at any time in the future, whilst erecting a 'front' to that end, with his 'citizens panel', much though I think there is value in the basic idea.
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Benedek
We need more like the "Beast of Bolsover" in government, all parties have them. Dennis Skinner has nothing to be ashamed of, do you know he never misses a Westminster sitting.
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Over the years, having voted (mainly at general elections) for all the main parties plus Plaid Cymru, (when I was a callow youth and got carried away) I suppose I could be called a "floating" voter.
However, come this June, I, like many others, will this time make their last-minute choice in the privacy of the polling booth. For the very first time I fear that a large number will, because of various goings on, almost on impulse place their cross against the 'party' that is normally anathema to them in normal circumstances.
This will be seen to be the ultimate 'protest vote'. The more the media chides us for even thinking about voting for such right wing horrors, the more we will do so just to show the 'accepted' political parties that we can. Our chance to give the establishment a bloody nose.
This could turn out very nasty indeed. Maybe all that extra police riot and crowd control training which has been quietly going on all over the country recently, will be seen to have been justified after all.
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message 13....
Ha ha Noah, seems the grass on my side of the fence is now more attractively green, than on the side you usually mow.
That is exactly what I have been saying, as you very well know, for quite some time.
I have a web site for you to look at, but I cannot send it to you due to house rules. Are you in touch with any of the other correspondents on here, or particularly Talk Wales?
Maybe I can contact you via that route.
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I have just read Daniel Hannan in the Telegraph, he wrote .....
"Above all, we understand that our country is defined by a "civic not ethnic" sense of nationality."
He was writing in opposition to the BNP. An interesting definition.
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message 15...
I refer you to the last paragraph of message 14..
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#16
Lost plot there, thought you were conversing with Noah, must be getting old, sent wire.
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Betsan wrote .....
Adam Price's ancestors, a Liberal politician, claimed his fellow politicians lived: You get in to get on. You get on to get honours. You get out to get honest.
Was this the same man who John Maynard Keynes called .....
"half-human visitor to our age from the hag-ridden magic and enchanted woods of Celtic antiquity".
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mapexx
That put the contest with the Welsh Nationalists into perspective. Does it mean we should be putting more money into our poor estates and encouraging promiscuity? Could these estates be our salvation?
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David Davies's proposal is unworkable, but is at least a constructive contribution which is more than he usually comes out with..
13, The analysis of potential votes for the BNP is I suspect a accurate one. However, I believe that there will also be a round of English Council elections, where again the BNP are likely to do very well. This may well be more of a problem for them as they will get elected some of their more insane activists. The new 'acceptable face' will be hard to pull off when such loonies are elected.
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message 19....
I will have to ponder on that Stony.
message20...
One of the penalties of attempting to fraction the State by calling for devolved units, is to suffer the incursion of minor, and almost invariably, fractious political entities.
The BNP, is just one of the beneficiary parties, along with the UKIP and Plaid Cymru, not that I am saying they proffer the same policies, but they all become the crumbs off the table of the major party establishment, when the food is dished up on a variety of tables rather than just the one.
People are led to think that once the major party system is broken, they will fix the problem by looking elsewhere. They then opt to follow the one shot party that most matches their own, usually bigoted, point of view.
Much as when the tyre blows on your car, you look at different options to fix it, by trying on a cycle, or a wheelbarrow wheel.
BNP, the extremist right wing nationalists, with their fascism, the UKIP with their 'get out of Europe' stance, Plaid Cymru with their perpetual progress towards independence for Wales.
All pretty much the same sort of philosophy, one thing on their mind.
Sooner than you would have it, frustration and dissatisfaction returns, along with a mass movement back to what was once familiar territory, the Major party regime.
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The following is a quote from almost the very end of "The Davies Principle".opening post....
So there you go: the Davies Principle.
It must be better than the principle by which one of Adam Price's ancestors, a Liberal politican, claimed his fellow politicans lived:
You may note that the word 'politician' is misspelt twice in the same sentence.
Now, while fully realising that this post will in all probability win me the Betsan's Blog Pedant Of The Year award. A BBC political editor should be well nigh infallible when it comes to the spelling of such a word as 'politician'.
I've finished now, 'cept to say that as I sit here watching the drizzle fall over the fields of North Cardiff, I can almost feel the warmth and affection radiating from our Betsan as she reads this post!!!!!! (wink emoticon)
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First - Dragon's Eye has been much more interesting these last two weeks - Much more balanced less Plaid and Nationalist propaganda!
The Expenses Issue - not sure if all the damning accusations hold up to investigation.
Cheryl's $6 on dog food looks like an honest simple mistake - if that's all the Telegraph can find in 4 years of expenses.
Nadine Dorrise seems to have thoroughly refuted the accusations made against her.
There are others of course where the headlines do not justify the reality.
But
There is some pretty damning evidence against far too many.
We have some MP's who are ripping us off - we also have some who are honest. This affair is tarring them all with the same brush.
What David Davies has done is to set up a system that will check his understanding of what is reasonable - good for him.
What Cameron has done is to ensure all Conservative MP's expenses are totally transparent and available for all to see.
So far so good - however the reality is that in industry, rules for expenses are very clear, and fully audited.
If you have to work away on a contract for some years suitable accommodation,reasonable support and subsistence is provided, usually quite generous, but not on the open ended scale that our MP's have voted to give themselves.
The Europe Elections - MEP's expenses are secret unless they or their party chose to publish - I'm asking all candidates what their personal policy will be.
How will it go.
The BNP will not do as well as some seem to think.
Tories seem to be holding up here despite Crabb's fall from grace.
Labour - Wipe out.
Plaid - will pick up some Labour votes, for some a Tory vote is unthinkable, but they will not be celebrating.
Lib Dems - not sure but should pick up.
UKIP - will do very well, two reasons, firstly we should have had the referendum and Europe is a big issue. Secondly the expense issue, they will pick up the protest vote.
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David Davies calls "let my enemy's be my judge"
And today listening to R4 a caller reminded me of a very old democratic tool, he referred to the "recall election".
This is something we have need of today, it's not a new idea, the ancient Greeks had a form of it. It would be useful not just to hold leaders to account, but also to prevent the excesses of extreme governments, possibly as a way of holding to account political conveniences such as an unwelcome or unpopular coalition.
A glue in the process of civic nationality.
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Stonemason re 24
The people need the power to force an election when a Government runs out of control.
I believe in the not to distant past the Queen had the power to dissolve Parliment and call an Election if it was in the National interest.
Perhaps an idea given suitable checks and balances of course.
Our two tier system of Government has a lot to commend it, the unelected revising upper chamber provides a sobering balance to an elected major legislating authority acting inappropriately.
Part of our current problem has been the ability of Government to revise our constitution, change our civil rights all without any proper contraints, or authority from the electorate, simply by enforcing a three line whip.
We need some control mechanism,
maybe an inviolate written constitution.
Today our system has failed - those who govern us are acting improperly, not just over expenses but also in the way they legislate against the common good.
We need an election and we need to set limits on the power of those who govern us.
Here in Wales devolution is not delivering - but with the media on the side of a minority who are putting isolationist and Nationalist aspirations ahead of the needs of the Welsh people, we have a problem.
It isn't a referendum on powers we need, it is a complete review of the what devolution should be and what it is to deliver.
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#25 West-Wales wrote:
"The people need the power to force an election when a Government runs out of control."
Read my #8 for why 'the people' can't do that.
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West-Wales
Others here have spoken about a written constitution, but in the context of a separate state, there is much in our present constitution that is good, what would Churchill have written here today?
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Bryn #26
Agree at present the people can't do that and if they could things would not necessarily change.
But if we had control of the powers of the legislature in some way, then maybe we could improve things.
At present once elected to power our Governments become dictators with no limitations. They do not even have to honour their manifesto.
I disagree with you regarding Davies, he at least is bringing public involvement and control into the way he deals with his expenses.
Not perfect but a step forward.
The full answers is of course to put MP's expenses under the sort of limits and controls we find in commercial businesses.
Is there the germ of an idea here for some further checks on MP's voting conduct, perhaps balancing the power of the party machine.
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"UKIP - will do very well, two reasons, firstly we should have had the referendum and Europe is a big issue. Secondly the expense issue, they will pick up the protest vote."
I'm picking that up also West Wales - strange as two of their 10 MEPs have been indicted for fraud - and one has just come out of clink. Definate move towards them this weekend though.
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#28 WEst-Wales wrote:
"But if we had control of the powers of the legislature in some way, then maybe we could improve things."
The 'if' lies at the heart of the problem. To solve it would require a revolution, bloodless or otherwise. The sovereignty of 'the Crown in Parliament' would have to be removed, permanently and totally. There is no in-between. It exists because it evolved that way. Other democracies underwent that revolution in one way or another. Regrettably, the UK's 'revolutions of 1642-49 and 1687-88 did not achieve it, at least not permanently in the case of the Civil War. Note the opening words of the Preamble to the US Constitution, 'We the People...'.
Of course, such a fundamental constitutional revolution would not solve all the UK's problems. No-one for a moment contends that it would. It would create other problems, as all democracies have to face them. But it would place ultimate sovereignty in 'the People' of Britain, and it would change the relationship we have with the head of state (be it a constitutional monarch or an elected president) the government, the legislature, politicians, civil servants, judges, the police and the security services.
The main difficulty lies in achieving that revolution, when the power lies essentially with those who have the most to lose by changing things. Turkeys do not vote for Christmas. There has been a lamentable failure to even reform the House of Lords, which is patently undemocratic, let alone overturn the entire body politic.
Any lesser attempts to limit the powers of Parliament are doomed to failure, such as efforts to regulate MPs pay and conditions. There cannot be a truly 'independent' authority which can undertake that task. It will have to be set up by Parliament, reviewed by it and be responsible to it, in one way or another. In other words it will require the agreement or sanction of Parliament, which can be changed or removed at any time, as Parliament is 'sovereign'.
Few people have an understanding of the UK's constitutional position. It is not in the interests of those in power that we know about it or understand it. They want us to be happy in the thought that every few years in a general election we can cast our votes for them, thinking that we achieve significant change. Public frustration with the political process is the result, and we have the inevitable clamour for an election, but it will solve nothing. In 5-10 years, or sooner, we'll be back in the same place.
Sadly, I can't really see it ever being reformed. Unless enough people realise what needs to be done it can't happen. We can't turn to the media for enlightenment, for they fall under the sway of the present system, the BBC included, if not most of all.
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Brynt41 calls for .....
"The sovereignty of 'the Crown in Parliament' would have to be removed, permanently and totally."
.... the aim to "place ultimate sovereignty in the People of Britain"
The tyranny of the people is certainly not the answer to the minuscule problems that have surfaced in recent days, history has shown that from revolution there emerges eventually a political elite, and so the wheel continues to turn.
Brynt41 has used the US model as an example of good governance, a model to emulate, but I wonder if there is a real difference, people vote every few years as do we, then politicians take over. In a few states there is the "recall election", occasionally impeachment is used, I don't see a great deal of difference.
The suggestion is we might need a Runnymede to create a new Magna Carta, or a modern day Oliver Cromwell to forge a just constitution, who is there that everyone would trust to reform the inequitable, no-one at all, brush and tar of The Telegraph has seen to that.
If reform is necessary I have three suggestions for consideration .....
First, far fewer national politicians(the people who make law), 3 for every million of the population, put them where you want to, but that's your lot. Why so few, less government is more, during the last decade or so politicians seem to have been intent on managing the country rather than in its governance, roll back government to a minimum.
Second, any constitutional change should be supported by a referendum that has a clear majority of the electorate in favour, 60 percent would be the UN recommendation.
Third, close to mapexx I think, the mandatory vote.
The "recall election" seems a good idea to me, though how it would work is another issue.
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Today in The Times
a contributor wrote
The only honest man to have entered Westminster was Guy Fawkes.
A sad contribution
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#31 TheStonemason wrote:
"Brynt41 has used the US model as an example of good governance, a model to emulate.."
Do not be disingenuous, I didn not say that. I used it as an obvious example of a democracy where sovereignty does not lie at the top of the system but ultimately with its citizenry. I would not choose the US model as one to emulate. It has serious deficiencies as well as advantages. It was created in a pre-democratic era, and has evolved. There are several much better examples in Europe we could emulate. I'm not going to list them, because you would look for weaknesses in each and use those as an argument against reform. No system is perfect. Regrettably, IMO, the UK is less perfect than most.
It was interesting to listen to Nick Clegg on Andrew Marr this morning. He said that fundamental constitutional reform is required, along the lines I've described. This is the first time I've heard the leader of one of the three main parties put the case for it so clearly.
I still think it isn't going to happen. The Liberals (LibDems) have not shared in the power dividend since the fall of Lloyd George. I would be surprised were they elected to power, that they would then have the political will to reform the system. New Labour promised reform of the Lords, but it hasn't happened to any great extent (granted, the majority of hereditary peers were removed, but most of them were politically inactive, but leaving 93 there). It still remains completely undemocratic.
I agree, totally, that constitutional reform should require a referendum. It would be unthinkable that it could take place without one. Regrettably, constitutional reform of the central principle of the sovereignty of parliament isn't on the agenda of either of the two main parties. My guess is it never will.
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Brynt41 .....
The reason I used the following ...
"Brynt41 has used the US model as an example of good governance, a model to emulate.."
... is because you have many times previously used the written constitution of the USA as a cudgel against our constitution in the UK.
Not disingenuous.
I am certainly not arguing against reform as #31 demonstrates, as my glass is naturally half full I would be inclined to look for positives, why would anyone adopt a negative, as a preference to reform.
There are no arguments against reform at this keyboard.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Adam Price was quite right to say, "The guiding hand of Westminster has been well and truly caught in the cookie jar"
Might he have been referring, among others, to our friendly anti-devolution MPs who may have more than one reason for opposing LCOs, and legislative devolution to the Assembly? Preventing legislative devolution means Labour MPs from Wales get to keep their 64,700 pounds a year cushy jobs, and 50,000 a year worth of pension contributions. Not to mention their expenses.
http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/news/310369/Names-claims-and-excuseslist-of-scandal-MPs-that-you-should-sack-at-next-election.html
According to the NOTW Mr Don Touhig allegedly designated his constituency home as his second home, blaming 'the rules' for having to do it. Unfortunately the NOTW doesn't tell us how much it cost the taxpayers.
In my book such behaviour amounts to:
'Grab as much as we can, while we can' or
'We'l milk the system for all its worth'
Good on you Don! I hope its your seat that gets slashed when we have a Welsh Parliament. That's if you're still there after the voters of Islwyn have their say.
Your erstwhile colleague, Paul Flynn MP, has described you as being the,' seamstress-in-chief of stitch ups'. He says you can be 'pompous' and 'ambitious' ('Dragons and Poodles' 1999). I think you're the kind of man to NOT represent Wales in that den of corruption and trough of sleaze sometimes but inappropriately known as the 'Mother of Parliaments'.
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brynt41, you wrote .....
"Might he have been referring ............ Preventing legislative devolution means Labour MPs from Wales get to keep their 64,700 pounds a year cushy jobs, and 50,000 a year worth of pension contributions."
This is a very serious statement brynt41, to accuse Members of Parliament of "preventing legislation for personal gain", have you evidence?
Could the accusation be libellous? Is the accusation only restricted to Labour MPs?
Wow ......... I'm surprised your comment got passed moderation.
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Who is the most popular MP, Flynn or Touhig? In the 2005 general election, Flynn's majority was cut by over 9%, whilst Don Touhig increased his huge majority by over 2%.
As Brynt is such a fan of Flynn's ramblings, he'll have noticed that Flynn has insulted every other Labour MP in Wales, with of course the exception of Julie Morgan, wife of his hero, Rhodri.
Flynn was just on the BBC news, castigating his colleagues in the British Parliament, and demanding police action.
The druid is so obvious, he makes no secrecy of his desire for independence and an all powerful Senedd.
One of the blessings of our British Parliament, it's under the constant supervision of the inquiring argumentative British press, as was just proved.
Meanwhile, the Welsh assembly is under the terrifying scrutiny of BBC Wales, S4C, ITV Wales and the Western Mail!!!!
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message 36.....
So you don't like the Westminster establishment, and prefer we go it alone, well that is your choice, I wouldn't dream of challenging your priciples, your options... yes, I do challenge..
However..... I think it a bit rich you feel we should take notice of a newspaper(?)the owner of which is a mega mouth from Down Under, whose political bias in his publications helped enormously to give us Thatcher and then Blair, as he changed horses in mid stream, knowing full well where his cash and protection lay.
His support for Thatcher helped break down the well established Union negotiating procedures in both Merseyside and in the mining industry. particularly here in South Wales.
And for Blair, the mess we are currently suffering from, at least in the matter of parliamentary cock ups.
So when now are to rely on that mogul's word for who we have in parliament then?
I refuse to be led by the nose by a Oz expat who seems to think we should all follow his politcal agendas.
I sometimes think you don't know where you are on this planet Brynt.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#39 mapexx wrote:
"I think it a bit rich you feel we should take notice of a newspaper.."
Shoot the messenger is your response, never mind the abuse of public funds. I could just as easily have quoted The Telegraph.
If you bothered to read the article, you'd see that there are many names from most of the parties there, including Salmond's.
We are all too aware of the failings of the UK's media, another reason why this country is in the mess its in. Even you wouldn't deny that.
The problem is that the unionists here, and in general, aren't coming out with the solutions.
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My comment has been refered to the modeator but if anyone wants to read what I cut and pasted you can go to the Cambria Magazines blog site and read about Don Touhig
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#42 alfsplace1986
Thanks for the link. The people of Wales need to know about their MPs' less attractive qualities and activities.
Too many people in wales have given loyal and unquestioning support to the Labour party for nearly a century. This is how they are repaid by people who are out for all they can get. Labour has betrayed them. Its turned its back on any principles it may have had. As a party it deserves to be obliterated at the next election.
This afternoon the Speaker of the House of Commons will make an announcement. He has used his office to defend and protect the indefensible practices which have been going on there for decades. He has even used - wasted - public funds in the courts for that purpose. He criticised MPs for speaking out.
He should already have resigned. My betting is he won't. Shame on him.
So far no single MP or Minister has resigned, from any party. The electorate has to either wait for parties to deselect sitting members or for a general election, while the sorry bandwagon careers on. The system renders the people, US, who pay for it all, impotent.
The pathetic government of Gordon Brown has lost what little moral authority it ever had.
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How about MEP's expenses;
Check these out.
Euro Mp's expenses can reach 1Million
http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Euro_MP_expenses_%27can_reach_%C2%A31m%27
Secret Report reveals how MEP's make millions.
http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Secret_report_reveals_how_MEPs_make_millions
The Tories and UKIP are promising to publish their MEP's expense's
OK but even so do we really need this level of over legislation, or yet another trough for the political class.
Do we need these people, - what exactly do they do, that can't (or should) be done in our own legislature.
Consider the vast wealth garnered by failed UK politicians who have been granted a free pass into the Brussels treasure house.
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message 41...
So you are in hock to Murdoch then?
I told you I will not be taken in by anything appearing in any of his rags, but as you seem to read the TNOW maybe there is an excuse for you.
All those scandals and sexually inspired stories it is famed for, must be having an adverse effect on your judgement.
Yes...You COULD have quoted the Telegraph, but what is indicative is,... you didn't.
But I am not here to shoot the messenger, only he who paid the messenger to get aimed at. Namely...The gob from Oz.
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#44
Yes, all such abuse should be brought to light, wherever it happens, including the Assembly, and in all parties. No exceptions. It has to be rooted out, not covered up.
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message 43....
In your previous attempt you made issue of those in the Labour party, (and don't try to swing it one way only, as ALL parties are suffering fromm the same problems)being on the receiving end of the 'goody bags syndrome'. Howdever, those people are NOT the Labour party as such, just members thereof.
Keep in mind, the party is composed of very many thousands who are aghast at what their leadership has got involved in, and hopefully those true members will rally around NEW faces, who are not to be taken as pigs, snuffling and grunting, in any future revitalised party.
Wales has done very well by the OLD Labour party, for one very simple reason, the old party contributed many from Wales, usually with dirt under their fingernails, and blue scars on their heads, who MADE the Labour party what is used to be.
The British Lasbour movement has solid roots here in Wales.
But thanks to those old guys and gals, we educated our youth to take up the reins of the future, it is not the fault of the Labour party that many of those decided to join in with the rest of the over educated, and mollycoddled prats who have recently come to the fore. That is the state of politics today, no matter what party you talk about.
You would be better off becoming a member of a revived Labour movement, operating under totally new rules, in which to satisfy your disgust with what is today's scenario in the field of politics.
You don't like what you see, then do something about it, not carp on here about how bad the labour party is.
I wonder how you would take it if one of your neighbours was done for murder, and the rest of your region called your street 'murderers row'?
with people castigating your whole street, for the felony of one person
That is what you are doing when calling the Labour paty over for the misbehaviour of a few.
I think it about time you took your eyes off Wiki, and concentrated on the real world for a change.
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West Wales 44. I agree with you entirely with regard to Brussels which has been the "ultimate" trough when it comes to the feathering of nests,and mainly by people of whom we know very little and wished we knew even less. Whilst were in this "feeding frenzy" regarding MP's,and recently AM's our representatives in Brussels should be forced to come clean on what they've "pocketed" in previous years. About 6/7 years ago sitting on Eurostar with "better half",saw MEP from Wales enter second class carriage the reaction was from me was "Why are you in here as I know you get 1st class paid for you,and the reaction was you "KNOW" dont you. The upshot of all this is that we must have democratically elected people to represent the will of majority but to also be farsighted and sometimes in front of public opinion and therefore be prepared to vote against unpopular measures. They need to be well rewarded and have the skills/knowledge/experience to handle the complex matters before them,however the current situation of have PAID POLITICIANS in Europe/Westminster/Cardiff/Local Authorities is ridiculous and we need constitutional changes to reduce power of state/amend operation of state to reduce the numbers of politocos running our lives.
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#47 mapexx wrote:
"Wales has done very well by the OLD Labour party.."
Care to elaborate? How is it that Wales has had higher unemployment and more poverty under Labour and Tory administrations alike?
I'd like to see your list (genuinely) of what Labour has done for Wales (in particular) at any point in its history.
I'm not picking on Labour (Old or New) either, I have even less regard for the Tories - for me they are essentially an English party. The LibDems don't know whether they're coming or going, and will say anything to get votes from wherever they can. They are 'all things to all men'. I criticise Plaid when it deserves it, which is quite often.
We need an entirely new political system. It isn't going to happen in the UK. IMO self-determination for Wales is the quickest and surest way of achieving it, that's why I support Plaid, despite that party's shortcomings.
I re-iterate, all corruption, abuse of power, arrogance, needs to be dealt with severely wherever it happens. It isn't happening at Westminster. We only know about it because someone was public-spirited enough to leak the details. There hasn't been a SINGLE sacking or a resignation from government or the Commons. That's because the system is a law unto itself.
I want it reformed effectively and finally, don't you?
If you do, let's hear your proposals.
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message 49...
To call to mind just a few ...the NHS was born out of the old Labour/sociliast principles that came directly from the Institute regimes which arose across the whole of the south Wales area.
The Socialist movements that were the directy forerunners of the OLD Labour movenmment.
Those same instutes that encouraged the education of many of our youth, to encourage those people to get out of the dirt and danger of working in mines and steel.
Nothing from the Libs, or the Tories, Plaid was not even on the horizon at the time.
This is all off the top of my head, I cannot be bothered to go to web sites. Which wopuld without doubt provide a dam=ned site more inmfo than I am able to put up at the moment.
Having made those couple of points, I go on to say that I am in total agreement with most of the rest of your message.
There is one major caveat though, how do you envisage the circle being drawn around a political structure that will emcompass all you look for, without embracing many of the current principles of politics?
The danger with attempting to opt for a 'new' regime, simply plays into the hands of those with a simplistic pl;atforms to spout about.
The major party structure is the end result of a century of development, and if it contains loopholes that can and have apparently been exploited, the answetr is to pull them apart and start over, in your mind, is it?
How about getting involved to the extent you reconstruct the party system, within enforcable guidlines, that will do for not only Wales but the whole of the UK, Europe even.
Of course, the present incumbents of Westminster will have to be culled, along with these troublesome devolved Assemblies, but that I fear you do not agree to.
So what would you do to get the matter sorted out?
AS for resignations, that will come in the next general election, and unless I am wrong, the trauma caused will do a helluva lot to oput things right.
OR as Martin Bell implied on the news last night, if things do not go the way the electorate wishes, we may as well prepare for rebellion of one sort or another.
It will take some sort of revolutionary upset in the law enforement, and armed services, to cause those to fall out with the goverment of the day, but that is not beyond the bounds of possibilty, as other regimes have discovered before now,.
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#50 mapexx
"So what would you do to get the matter sorted out?"
I've said it so many times, I can't really repeat it again in detail.
In the UK, the existing Parliament would need to set up a commission on the constitution (consisting of members from across the entire political spectrum, and others from all walks of life). After looking at examples of best practice in other countries with a stable political history, the commission would draw up an entirely new political framework, based on an entrenched written constitution (by entrenched, I mean special procedures would be needed for its amendment, such as a 2/3 majority and increased time intervals between parliamentary votes).
It should contain provisions for:
- democratically elected legislative chambers
- a voting system which would maximise voter participation (ie ditch FPTP),
- a separation of powers between legislature, executive and judiciary,
- the rights and liberties of the citizen,
- rules for the party system,
- a supreme court, with powers to strike down unconstitutional legislation,
- the role and powers of the head of state (be it a hereditary monarchy, or an elected non-executive president - my preference is for the latter, but it would be for the electorate to decide).
The new political structure and constitution recommended by the commission would be put to the electorate in a referendum. Once passed, the existing parliament would dissolve itself, and the principle of the sovereignty of 'the Crown in Parliament' would disappear into history forever. Sovereignty would then be vested ultimately in the people of the UK, as in other modern democracies.
Such reform would not solve all our problems, far from it. But it would lay the basis for a better, fairer, safer, and more transparent society.
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message 51....
NO, Brynt.. no..
I have already read it all, from every Tom Dick and 'Arry, of what SHOULD be done, I asked you what would YOU do.
Political theorising is skirting around the issue.
Put your self on the line, WHAT would YOU do?
But maybe that is beyond your capacity to respond in a reasonable or rational manner.
Because as I see it, the system is so tightly controlled there is little, if any, scope for individual activity, other than joining a party that most meets your apirations.
I will support anyone who calls for the removal of the financial 'up front' deposit to stand in a general election.
That would give access to the parliamentary procedure.
As it is at the moment, the deposit is a barrier to anyone with good intentions who does not wish to stand on a party ticket, but who also, has not the personal funds to pay up front.
Definitley anti democratic.
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Bryn # 51
set up a commission on the constitution (consisting of members from across the entire political spectrum, and others from all walks of life)
We have seen here in Wales how such a commission when set up by an ineffective executive dominated by an unscrupulous minority becomes simply a creature of that minority.
There has to be a better way to develop the way forward. In the past this has always been either evolutionary or revolutionary.
The actions and failures of the sequence of Labour Governments culminating in this current abomination, have left us as a nation (the UK) with a dysfunctional system, now today revolution is a possible next step.
However I agree with most of your list.
The biggest issue is that we are currently seriously over-governed.
There are too many petty politicians (and others) who can inflict their particular obsessions on us, and many are agitating for still more powers so they can intrude still further into our lives.
They fail to deliver on core requirements and fritter our money away on pet schemes.
Today on Ceefax Jane Davidson is setting out to punish those who only use plastic bags once - while the Nursing Council is trying to get the Assembly to take action over the scandal of lack of safe hospital transfer facilities for babies and children, without success.
I agree with separation of powers, and would like to see the legislature simplified and significantly reduced in size.
We do not need the raft of new legislation that is swamping us daily.
Also - Civil and State legislation,Public Service provision, Taxation and benefits, must be common over the whole UK. As should the remit of your proposed Supreme Court.
Having seen the problems of PR (witness the NAW) and other systems which produce forced coalitions, often designed to give minorities a voice, but in practice giving them control over government, I strongly support FPTP, but would consider mandatory voting.
As you say (I dropped the "such") reform would not solve all our problems, far from it. But it would lay the basis for a better, fairer, safer, and more transparent society.
The most important reform of all must be - to reduce the numbers and levels of authorities.
Reduce the numbers of the vermin who infest them - those who seek to control, and inflict their prejudices, on us. While making us pay for the privilege.
Lets stop making the political gravy train an attractive career option for nonentities.
Lets make legislation a career for those who are educated, able, and have proven track records outside of politics.
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I've been away... have I missed something? From what I read, it seems that the only resolution to what I call The Westminster Problem is to create sovereign governments for Wales, Scotland, N.Ireland and England, hence completely wrapping up the whole issue.
A new Council of the Isles could meet in Birmingham, or Manchester (or even Machynlleth!) to deal with issues of mutual concern thereafter.
Westminster would become a museum, a fitting end to its long career.
We would only need to concern ourselves with the affairs of the Welsh parliament. As Cardiff is easy to reach from all parts of the nation (and will be even easier once Plaid have improved all the rail links), few Members of the Welsh Parliament (MWPs) would need second homes...and we could carefully scrutinise their expenses as we are a small nation where there is little room to hide (particularly in a glass walled senedd chamber).
That is all far less fussy and more likely to deliver satsifaction than allowing the now discredited British parties to rearrange the deckchairs to their own liking on the deck of their version of the Titanic.
I move.
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#54
Its why I favour self-determination for Wales. The UK isn't going to be reformed ever.
Wales would have to go through the process I outlined in #51, as would Scotland. England would probably carry on with the top-down sovereignty system the UK has now, and would remain in a mess in perpetuity.
The fiasco which took place in the Commons this afternoon shows what a circus the place is. NO-ONE has been sacked or resigned. Half a dozen senior members of the Cabinet have claimed huge sums of public money without moral justification, and are still in their jobs. Same goes for the Tory grandees... moats, moles and chandeliers. The Speaker attempted to block disclosure using the courts, and he refuses to stand down.
Bulldozers are needed to raze the entire place to the ground, and a new start is needed. There's no hope or possibility of that. They haven't got a clue how to begin.
Yes, Wales needs a sovereign Parliament, and the sooner the better.
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"there is little room to hide (particularly in a glass walled Senedd chamber)"
Except .....
...... Truth. There is always a place to hide this precious commodity.
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message 55....
Sorry Brynt, it ain't a goin' to happen.
And I mean both.
Wales will be self determining only when the UK is invaded, subjugated and made subject to exterior and superior force, broken into parts and each part given a governor to rule the roost.
Back to the Empire of the Roman pattern.
Long before that day ever arrives, Wales will be once again absorbed into the greater whole of the UK.The economics of it will see to that.
A region of the UK cannot be allowed to soak up funds at the current rate without adequate justification, and if things go badly in the next general election, as you seem to hope they will, be assured your emotional appeal will be totally disregarded, and Wales will revert to it's old status, without this Assembly that is so costly and uneconomic.
I am afraid you once again opt for the emotive.
Try the practical,and rational, for a change.
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Re 57
What is the connection between this message and Cheryl Gillan's receipt for dog food? Well, both contain an element of the barking ...!!!
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#58
Once again the reply is an attack on the writer, shallow but typical response from the separatist.
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Re 59
Stonemason,
I'm sure that you will be the first to post a message to complain after the next nasty tirade from a certain person ...
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message 58....
Yes I am barking, barking mad that a minority in Wales has been allowed to call the shots, set the agenda for the region I call home, and to hell with the vast majority who, because they show no great amount of interest in this nonsense now operating across the region, are compelled to suffer the consequences of that lack of interest.
But not to worry Wales, the days of this gang of loonies are numbered, by, of all things, the very thing they have been squandering, the wealth they have had control of over the last ten years.
The UK, or Europe, cannot tolerate such profligacy, especially by a minority group who have bent and warped the very principles they claim to uphold, by the waste they have mismanaged over.
Personally I care little about what the AM's, MP's and MEPs have got up to (as individuals), in a a system that has allowed their activities, so trying to steer the debate back to the Cheryl Gillan receipts matter, does not turn the debate itself off.
We are entitled to get uppity about the system, the individuals do not matter.
Unlike you, I do not attack people, I aim at their intolerant activities, and the system that permits those to take place.
Just as in the case of other matters that you always seem to be fretting about,... Wales and the language.... Neither of which is, or ever has been, targeted by we barkers.
But you are incapable of discerning the subtle difference between our attacks on the wastrel matters attendant on both those subjects, and the subjects themselves,.
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Re 61
If you say so, mapexx!!!
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mnessage 62....
Yes, I do say so, but what is obviously missing from your silly little remark is any sort of contradiction to my previous message.
Like all others who come on here with sly little comments, you never put up verifiable counter commentary, just as stated, slimy responses that divulge nothing of the programme you people are being told to support, but instead to opt for the scurrilous, in the hopes it will persuade the uncommitted to follow your lines of attack.
Puts me in mind of the loud mouth in the school yard who gathers a few sycophants around him, until one day he meets up with the likes of myself, who will not take his crap or bullying tactics.
The result of which, once his sham demeanour has been tested, he slinks away to lick his wounds, hoping he may be able to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory another day, only to fall again, and again, because his opponent is far too smart to be taken down..
And his failed method? to stand in the corner of the yard shouting and bawling childish names, or calling ouit inane remarks, as he is far too stupid to anything else.
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mapexx bach,
I (and many others) have addressed the silly generalities that you spout here so often, that there is no point in me saying the same things over and over again. Especially as you don't seem to understand half of it.
How do you honestly expect anyone to give any sort of intelligent reply to sheer nonsense such as this? :
"Wales will be self determining only when the UK is invaded, subjugated and made subject to exterior and superior force, broken into parts and each part given a governor to rule the roost."
We are almost in the realms of science-fiction - written in wholly eccentric English.
I think the school bully doth protest too much. No one on this blog is more likely to shout, throw personal insults and, of course, run to the moderators when he's hurting from a little scratch.
You know what I believe, it's no secret, and I've made it clear all along. But you hate what I cherish and what I wish to see evolve. And then, unfortunately, your temper tantrums get in the way of any kind of debate, and that is frustrating to many on both sides of the argument.
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FiDafydd, I've had a bit of a rough day, in fact if you had looked out of the window earlier today you will realise the day has been wet, so wet our feet began to become webbed, but your #60 needs responding to .....
mapexx, you really have been a very naughty boy, now stop upsetting people, well, until tomorrow anyway.
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FiFi #64
No one on this blog is more likely to shout, throw personal insults and, of course, run to the moderators when he's hurting from a little scratch.
pot - kettle !!!
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Re 65
So it's consistency now, is it?!
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FiDafydd
I couldn't resist it.
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message 64....
NO, you and one or two others, have tried, desperately, to undermine my commentary, on many occasions, but it does not work.
You are seen by far more who take my side of the discussion, for what you are, a nasty piece of work, who submits to this blog for one single reason, to try to upset people who have a full grasp on what the
nationalists are all about..
It is recognised by most, that you are here to disrupt, insult and enforce your pointless views on Wales, the language and the Assembly/WAG, and you target one or two for that express purpose.
The tactics are well known to be those as delineated by those working to mar the good relations between Wales, the Welsh, and England and the English.
It would not be so bad, even then, if you actually lived in Wales, but others, as well as I, suspect you are either an expat,with an itch you cannot scratch in any other way, or someone just seeking to impress with your total lack of politeness.
Your scant information about modern Wales is very obvious from the paucity of comment about the region.
The day you actually respond with ANSWERS to the many times you have been set questions, re your propensity for the falsity you discern as Wales, Welshness, and other matters, will be a red letter day on many a calendar.
I am not in any way likely to regard your insulting remarks about my English composition, especially as it comes from someone whose comprehensive capabilities are somewhat lower than that of a four year old in kindergarten, and whose responses match that age, just about perfectly.
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Re 69
mapexx,
If you ask nicely, Stonemason might pour you a drink so that you can chill out a bit ...
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message 70...
I suggest that even fairly left wing as I am, as Stoney has discerned, I will be more welcome supping in his company than either of us would feel comfortable supping in yours.
A concept that will be put to the test in the very near future by the way.
Pitty you will not be invited to test our antipathy to someone so negative about the region we live in.
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