A Third Way
Whatever happened to the Assembly Government's bid for powers to deal with housing - in particular the supply for affordable housing - in Wales?
Ah, I bet you never thought you'd be glad to see me returning to the world of Legislative Competence Orders. You'll have missed those regular posts I know but as I press the 'publish' button, I wonder whether I can dare to hope there'll be relief that you're being offered a break from 'gravy-train' stories and even an audible sigh of "Ah LCO!" from those of you who check in every day.
Let's recap.
The Assembly voted in favour of an LCO that would give future governments the power to bring in any number of measures designed to improve the supply of affordable houses in Wales. The Assembly government duly pitched to Westminster for those powers, including the specific power to abolish the right-to-buy option for council house tenants, though this government had no intention of doing any more than suspending it in areas of particular housing pressure.
In Westminster the Welsh Affairs Select Committee wondered why they'd asked for more powers than they wanted. Why not simply ask for the powers they actually intended to put to use?
Cue an almighty row between the Presiding Officer and the former First Secretary, now member of the Welsh Affairs Committee. Lord Dafydd Elis-Thomas pointed a finger at "some" MPs who were "acting contrary to the spirit of devolution". Alun Michael questioned the Presiding Officer's right to comment at all, given he "should be above political debate between parties".
The deadlock is broken by the suggestion - from a Plaid Cymru Special Adviser - that a clause is inserted, that old favourite that gives the Welsh Secretary the right to intervene. He or she would effectively have a veto on any plan to abolish the right-to-buy option. Both Rhodri Morgan and Ieuan Wyn Jones face the lobby, roll their eyes when the inevitable 'veto' question comes and deny it's any such thing ... with very little conviction.
Soon a queue forms to question the whole principle of a veto. At the front, the Presiding Officer, in anticipation of a challenge to the legality of the LCO in the House of Lords.
The final nail is driven into the coffin by the Joint Comittee on Statutory Instruments - half a dozen members from the House of Lords, half a dozen from the Commons - who take a good look at the LCO and report it "for doubtful vires." They conclude there's some doubt whether the LCO as it stands would be within the law - or as they put it "there appears to be a doubt in one respect that, if it were approved and made, it would be intra vires".
That's it. Kibosh.
Members of the Welsh Affairs Select Committee point out it was never their idea (by inference, 'daft idea') to suggest a veto in the first place. They're right. That idea came from a Plaid Special Adviser. Hang on, comes the response. Had MPs not very carefully placed the LCO between that rock over here and that really hard place over there, we wouldn't have had to come up with the idea (by inference, 'daft idea') in the first place, would we?
And that's where we were.
Headlines? Damaging.
Goodwill? Strained.
Public interest? Minimal.
M4? Feeling longer than ever.
Housing? Ah yes ... the supply of affordable housing.
I'd started to wonder, out loud, whether the bid for power to deal with housing pressures was dead? It turns out that it is, in fact, just stunned, just restin' and pining for the whatever is the civil service equivalent of the fjords.
There is, I'm told, "a third way".
There is a clever way of approaching the same problem but by "coming at it from a different direction", all sides in this particular argument should be happy. "Willy waving "as one MP so memorably put it, over and double quick. Unless this LCO gets its skates on and goes through the scrutiny process before Gordon Brown calls an election, it'll be back to square one.
By the way what about the talks about the Welsh Language LCO? A joint meeting of AMs and MPs scrutinising it held earlier this week was described as "pleasant". Both sides are learning from each other's questions. One stunned AM got the impression that while there will be plenty of amendments, the Assembly may even find itself with more powers over the language than it had ever dared hope, or ask for.
Too good to be true, surely, they wonder. And to whom do we listen? To the chair of the Welsh Affairs Select Committee, Hywel Francis, who is clearly determined this time to make the process run as smoothly and as effectively as possible? Or to some of the senior noises off who worry about concerns voiced by parts of the business community in Wales and talk of curbing and serious redrafting?
The Culture Minister takes the line that he "must believe" that things are on track.
And there you have it. Two LCO-updates for the price of one. A bargain - and a pledge to leave off the subject for a while now.
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
© MMX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~48~RS~)
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This must be one of your best ever posts, Betsan, and a good explanation of a very complicated subject.
Surely the light must be dawning that asking for additional powers, which were never in the original devolution truck which trundled down the M4, to be couriered by van from Westminster, without their express agreement, is an idea which has 'joined the choir invisible' ?
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Betsan.
Your last line...
... "and a pledge to leave off the subject for a while now...."
(or forever maybe!)
Pity that could not have been the final comment from Cardiff Bay...
.... as it's swans song.
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"Ah LCO!"
More like, 'Ugh LCO!'
Its patently obvious that the LCO process is a dismal failure. One of the numberless failures of New Labour's twelve years in office. This is certainly the worst Government that I've experienced in my lifetime. I have no confidence in it - whatsoever.
Not only is the Government incompetent, but the entire political system is bust. Fit only for the scrap heap. Will there be fundamental constitutional reform? I think not.
As far as Wales is concerned, legislative power remains at Westminster.
Power to prevent the Assembly legislating lies effectively with the Welsh Affairs Committee. It consists of MPs from Wales who stand to lose their jobs if and when Wales gets a Parliament. We don't yet know how many of them have been 'on the take' with their expenses.
Ms Powys seems to imply that there will be a slight 'thaw' with respect to one or two of the LCOs. If true, I put that down to the haunting fears that members of the Committee, including the arch anti-devolutionist Don Touhig, have that their seats, their handsome salaries, pensions and expenses are at risk.
They are afraid that when Labour voters in the Valleys find out what they've been up to with taxpayers money, they will be out on their ears. They also a fear that they will be blamed for 'selling Wales short' for their own gain, by preventing or delaying legislative powers to Wales.
Personally I find it appalling that after Wales has had a democratically elected Assembly for a decade, the power to legislate on the Welsh Language is retained at Westminster, in an overwhelmingly discredited English Parliament. It is offensive. The blame lies squarely with Touhig and his cronies in the WAC.
Hopefully Labour will be taught a lesson they won't forget in the forthcoming June elections.
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So some bright spark has come up with yet another "clever way of approaching the problem". Unfortunately, as no-one is telling us what this third (or, more probably, twenty-third) way is, we have no way of knowing whether it will work or not.
And that, in a nutshell, is the whole problem with the LCO system. Nobody knows what will get through the system, or what will be thrown out ... or what will lie forgotten in the long grass.
Following the fiasco of the Housing LCO we have, in the Welsh Language LCO, a situation where everyone is now falling over themselves to be nice to each other, in order to get at least one LCO though "as smoothly and as effectively as possible". But is it going through smoothly? No. Because, once again, nobody actually knows how much dealing, compromising, bullying and arm-twisting is going on behind the scenes.
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There is only one way to solve this endless political machination, red tape ... and waste of valuable time and money: to adopt a defined list of what things the Assembly can and cannot decide for itself. Then Westminster and the Assembly can each get on and do their respective jobs without squabbling and interference.
That agreed list of what the Assembly can and can't do has already been agreed. It's called Schedule 7 of the Government of Wales Act 2006.
The vast majority of people in Wales want devolution. There is no question about that. But we need a system of devolution that works.
When Labour get their act together and agree to let us have a referendum (which they must do before the general election, because it would be foolish to rely on the Tories to do it) then we can vote "Yes" in order to put an end to this badly thought through, unworkable mess called the LCO process.
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message 3.....
I for one am very happy indeed that legislation over the language resides, and is retained, in Westminster. Hopefully it will never be 'devolved'.
For one very obvious reason.
Give that mandate to the Assembly, and the likely outcome would be far more of the monetary waste than we already have to bear.
It is unlikely that Westminster would be other than strenuously engaged in slapping down such language pressures, as the MP's, and possibly even a few AM's, whose constituents would be giving them hell's bells, for allowing the minority nationalist elite to further enforce it into the public domain.
It is already a bone of contention in parts of Wales where it holds no significance, what would be the outcome if Cardiff Bay were to have enforcing legal powers over it, is anyone's guess, but I suggest it would soon cause severe friction.
Maybe we should encourage it, as for certain it would then give cause to see it off for good and all.
By the way, before the more rabid amongst us gets all aeriated,I refer to the pressures, not the language itself..
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Betsan wrote .....
"In Westminster the Welsh Affairs Select Committee wondered why they'd asked for more powers than they wanted. Why not simply ask for the powers they actually intended to put to use?"
The answer is obvious to me, the LCO contained exactly the powers that were intended to be used.
The old chestnut that some call "council housing", others say "social housing" whilst those that prefer the truth will say "taxpayer subsidised housing", Is a cliché for all that is wrong in the life of the tenants, low wages. Yet the erstwhile WAG politicians wanted the power to say "you will not have a house that you can call your own".
Nothing has changed since the middle ages, keep your place in poverty working man.
A recent study concluded that as long as housing organisations are able to build replacement housing, and the price offered to the tenant is not below the mortgaged amount, selling the house to the tenants has no effect on the subsidised housing market at all.
This LCO was not about helping people it was about political agenda.
Same old tune brynt41 .....
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I agree with message 5. At present the power to legislate over the language is with a third party that can apply an unbiassed, rational approach.
The danger is that if power over the language is devolved then it is there to be exploited by the nationalists in this country. Sure some of them wont want to use the language as a weapon but there is no doubt that it's effectiveness as such will eventually prove too much of a temptation as they become ever more intoxicated by this recently proclaimed dream of independence.
What was it someone once said on this blog? "Beware the Plaid Cymru Welsh language LCO Trojan horse!"
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How can discredited MPs with a vested interest, belonging to a failed system, be trusted to oversee the devolution of legislative powers? (or with doing anything else, for that matter).
When it comes to MPs' moral standing, apparently there is a strong statistical correlation between the size of the Member's parliamentary majority, and his/her money-grabbing instincts as far as expenses are concerned.
These make interesting reading:
http://markreckons.blogspot.com/2009/05/has-our-electoral-system-contributed-to.html
http://markreckons.blogspot.com/2009/05/mps-expenses-and-safe-seats-correlation.html
It leads to some pretty damning conclusions about the FPTP voting system which effectively and cosily keeps power in the hands of the two main parties in perpetuity.
It also makes us wonder about the large Labour majorities in several of the constituencies in South Wales, where 'donkey' voting down the generations has created complacency, if not arrogance, in the sitting Members. Take Don Touhig for example who chairs the Members committee on expenses, and who moved the amendment to block external scrutiny.
Here are some with their constituency majorities at the last election:
Chris Bryant, Rhondda 16,242
Don Touhig, Islwyn 15,740
Wayne David, Caerffili 15,359
Paul Murphy, Torfaen 14,791
Hywel Francis, Aberafon, 13,937
Dai Harvard, Merthyr Tydfil 13,934
Ann Clwyd, Cynon Valley 13,259
Huw Irranca-Davies, Ogmore 13,703
Kim Howells, Pontypridd 13,191
Peter Hain, Neath 12,710
Sian James, Swansea East 11,249
Alun Michael, Cardiff South 9,237
Mark Tami, Alun and Deeside 8,378
Kevin Brennan, Cardiff West 8,167
Nia Griffith, Llanelli 7,054
Jessica Morden, Newport East 6,838
Ian Lucas, Wrexham 6,819
Madeleine Moon, Bridgend 6,523
Martyn Jones, Clwyd South 6,348
David Hanson, Delyn 6,644
(Apologies if my arithmetic got some slightly wrong)
Such Labour majorities are unhealthy for democracy. Same goes for large majorities in other parties in other parts of the UK.
Fundamental reform is necessary now. Not simply for the sake of the people of Wales, but for the entire population of the UK. If this present crisis doesn't end in reform, then the future is even grimmer. The calls are mounting for change to take place:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/may/18/mps-expenses-constitution-electoral-reform
Whatever our political standpoint, on devolution, nationalisation, the free market, green issues, the Welsh Language, local government - we should all add our voices to the clamour for reform. If we do nothing, and leave it to others, we will only have ourselves to blame.
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Message 4...
Quoted is a statement that needs to be substantiated....Below
"......The vast majority of people in Wales want devolution. There is no question about that. But we need a system of devolution that works...."
I am afraid there are many who DO question it. Probably far more, when the push comes to the shove, than at present you are aware of, or realise.
However, to touch on your final remark...there is no system of devolution that will work, except total independence, and I can assure you, the people of Wales will never opt for that.
Despite what is 'interpreted' from the polls you people are so keen to refer to.
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Interesting, brynt41 at #8.
As I read the appeal for reform at the last paragraph it immediately sent me running for the Anderson shelter, there must be something wrong, the Union was not under attack; I checked to see if my legs still had feet, my hands for fingers, everything present and correct! Could it be we have converted brynt41 to the Union?
Reading his contribution a second time things started emerging from the woodwork ........
First, a leap through cyberspace to MR, statistics to demonstrate a link between honesty and the safe parliamentary seats, all to support his preferred STV voting system. Statistics-Support-Illumination comes to mind, together with the drunk.
Second we hot desk to the Guardian and Nightmare on Downing Street Polly Toynbee leaps from the page, her battle cry is Proportional Representation but avoid the independent spirits, Toynbee calls a group of Independents a gaggle but implies they are giggle without substance, at the end she reminds us that small parties get into government with PR.
So First Past the Post is damned and large majorities are unhealthy.
Back to brynt41 and his last paragraph once again .....
Yes, its all very agreeable .....
we need reform, if others (I presume it is Westminster) are left to the reforming you can blame yourself .....
..... for .....
what exactly?
It's the push for non majority governance through coalition, the panacea of minority politics. Sorry brynt41, I'll trust the Liberals to keep reform on track, they have found a second wind, people have realised they make an honest sense of things. It might take a decade, a mere bagatelle in terms of our political and social development, but I think it will be worth the wait, devolution on the other hand, the Toynbee gaggle of geese requires reform in parallel with Westminster, after all we share the same constitution, it wouldn't do to unbalance things would it?
Betsan .....
I am sure that my old "Sergeant Major", Black Jake he was called on account of his very deep tan got during operations in the tropics, would say thank you, you are very gracious.
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#10
If the Union remains in place, which in the medium term is doubtful, then reform is necessary, essential even.
My point is that it is unlikely that the LibDems will be elected to power, and even if they are, it is possible that once esconced, they will revert to 'governing major party' mode. Remember that Blair came in on a platform of reform, with a massive parliamentary majority. Apart from devolution, which was more forced on New Labour in the case of Scotland (by SNP popularity), than from instinct, Blair achieved little. The Lords remained virtually untouched apart from removing the inactive hereditary peers.
I think it will be public pressure alone which will achieve the desired result, given the FPTP voting system. In any case the LibDems really want to change that, and proportional representation will result in more coalition government, whether we like it or not. Majority single party government has proved disastrous for the UK for most of the postwar period. It has ended up with sleaze and corruption on an unbelievable scale.
Everyone knows my preference for Welsh self-determination, because I believe that fundamental reform can be achieved at one fell swoop. That does not mean that I don't support the same reforms in the UK, as its possible that self-determination may never come about.
Your 'governance through coalition, the panacea of minority politics' is a self-contradiction. All parties (Tory, Labour etc) are coalitions representing a wide range of political opinion. Coalition government comes about in order to achieve a majority. It represents a broader range of public opinion. It makes dialogue and compromise necessary, instead of the yah-boo slanging matches that are so typical of Westminster today. That has to be better for us, the citizens.
However, your being a rank Tory, with right wing Euro-sceptic opinions, would prefer an electoral minority Tory government (like Thatcher's) to impose its will on the majority which voted for other parties, but who have no say at all in what happens after the election is over. Their votes are discounted.
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message 4,MH_ wrote,
The vast majority of people in Wales want devolution. There is no question about that. But we need a system of devolution that works.
Yeah yeah.
Meanwhile, in the real World far, far away from polls conducted by 'The Institute of Welsh Affairs' in S4Cs staff canteen.
Welsh Labour claimed the credit for their stunning devolution victory, so if devolution is so popular, why has their vote share dropped at three times the rate of Labour in Scotland, and at twice the rate of Labour in England?
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brynt41 wrote at #11
"However, your being a rank Tory, with right wing Euro-sceptic opinions, would prefer an electoral minority Tory government (like Thatcher's) to impose its will on the majority which voted for other parties, but who have no say at all in what happens after the election is over. Their votes are discounted."
Euro-sceptic, you could say that, I am troubled by the undemocratic effects of the EU on the UK.
Our "Great British Democracy" will, I am sure, sunder your accusations into a thousand pieces, nay, a million pieces, PM DC will, I am sure, protect every separatist as if he or she were a Conservative voter, and welcome their contributions towards better governance and the strengthening of the Union.
I don't think you fully understand what is happening, yes there will be reform, but the most important recent event is that the electorate have woken and have witnessed the effect of public opinion upon Westminster, the times are changing, for a better Political Union.
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Brynt,
Peter Hain consistently claims the credit for the introduction of compulsory Welsh language lessons, yet you claim it was Conservatives who ordered such compulsion? Evidence please.
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#14 J_W
Its not something that I really care about or think is particularly important. Compulsion is rarely a good idea. It has advantages and disadvantages as far as second language teaching is concerned.
Compulsion without adequate resources is a BAD idea. In the case of Welsh, there was insufficient funding and training of well-qualified teachers for the task. Its a recipe for disaster.
Really effective language teaching must take place in the very early years of a child's life, at the latest during the first years of primary schooling. To introduce it in secondary schools without the groundwork in place during the primary years isn't a good idea at all.
If its done well, and it is being done extremely well in many European countries, it results in a high level of bi- or multi-lingual proficiency. There is a considerable body of academic research which indicates that young children can learn several languages simultaneously and which also improves their intellectual capacity. It is not at all detrimental. The proviso is - it has to be well resourced and done properly. Like most things in the UK, it is done badly, often very badly.
My understanding is that the Education Act (1988) made the Welsh Language a core subject in the National Curriculum in Wales. That made its teaching compulsory. However I'm not certain what the date of the Act's implementation was. There was a Conservative government at that time, as I'm sure you remember all too well.
Research it for yourself. If Peter Hain wants to take credit, he's welcome as far as I'm concerned. I'm not lavishing praise on whoever was responsible. Hain had no knowledge of Wales when he was parachuted into a safe seat at Neath in 1991. (Previously he had contested Putney in 1983 and 1987, but lost to David Mellor).
The current political crisis is making people, including politicians, think about the arrogance of the two parties putting party hacks, usually from London, into safe seats. It shows contempt for the electorate. Its one of the reforms which needs to take place.
Party selection of its candidates isn't sufficient of itself, because an MP represents the entire electorate in the constituency. There may be some merit in having something akin to the 'primaries' of the US.
I can't say I have contempt for Hain, but he has landed Wales with an unworkable 2006 Act. He has tended to talk down to us, as if he knows better. I think of him as some sort of New Labour version of John Redwood, but not quite as obnoxious. One thing is for sure, if ever he loses his seat at Neath, he and his family will be up the M4 like whippets. Paul Flynn also alluded to Hain's ability to metamorphose into whatever he thought suited his career best.
I didn't want to study Welsh post fourteen (but it was compulsory to that age in the grammar school I attended way back in the 1950s - which was in an almost entirely English-speaking part of Wales), but in the event I did do it to O Level, because I liked French even less. Since then I never had another Welsh lesson. It was taught grammatically then, and it was deadly! (but so was French).
I would like to see the Language gain greater prominence throughout Wales, but compulsion is not the way to go. I believe it can be achieved through consensus and persuasion whilst resourcing is vital. All the major parties in Wales are in favour of supporting the Language.
Yes, there is a cost, but not everything in life can be measured in monetary terms. There are too many people who know the price of everything but the value of nothing.
These are my opinions, and I respect those who have a different point of view. I am truly saddened by those on this blog whose comments verge on wholesale abuse of the Welsh Language and those who speak it. It is unwarranted and undeserved. They have no capacity for empathy, and should give more thought before putting such thoughts into print. Thankfully I've never come across anyone in real life who says such things. They only do it anonymously here.
I'll leave it at that. I don't want to respond to the subject again.
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I concur when brynt41 writes .....
"I believe it can be achieved through consensus and persuasion whilst resourcing is vital."
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message 8...
"......IT also makes us wonder about the large Labour majorities in several of the constituencies in South Wales, where 'donkey' voting down the generations has created complacency, if not arrogance, in the sitting Members. ....."
Many of your almost interminable commentaries, do, ultimately, come to a welcome termination, actually making a degree of sense, as long as the reader is not asleep by the last full stop, however, I do occasionally feel you are being overly arrogant yourself.
The above quote from your message is rather patronising, insulting even, to many Welsh people.
Just because they do not vote for whatever it is you would have them vote for, is no just cause to call them 'Donkeys'.
If anyone is a 'donkey', stupid ass even, look in your mirror for the answer to that.
I for one, vote Labour, not because I am particularly enamoured of the party, but because what policies they do express, coincide more with those of my own, rather than the lassai fair policies of other parties.
So I would be obliged if you do not call me a donkey.
I suspect most of those you call such, have a better grasp on politics, at street level, than you have, scribbling your rather overblown stuff on here.
So far we have been regaled with copied down links to a variety of historical web sites, politics, and whatever else you felt we need to have shoved into our faces, all of which YOU consider supports your pedanticism, much of which was not asked for but came just the same.
For me the last straw regarding any validity that you may have in commenting about anything, is when you stoop so low as to denigrate the many thousands of Welsh people, with such an infantile slur as to call them donkeys, for voting the way they believe to be correct.
Maybe they do so because, like myself, they see no true alternative, other than to vote in time honoured fashion.
One cannot get any lower in my mind, than to tar all such voters with the brush one would normally reserve for the likes of the BNP.
Snakes belly and ceiling comes to mind.
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#17 mappex wrote:
"'donkey' voting"
Surely down the years you must have heard the saying, 'Here, they could put up a donkey wearing a Labour rosette and it would be elected'?
The term 'donkey' applied to the irrelevancy of the particular candidate, not those who voted for him/her. True, it didn't say much for the critical faculties of the voters, but more about their blind loyalty to the party and its principles.
"I for one, vote Labour, ...because what policies they do express, coincide more with those of my own, rather than the lassai fair (sic) policies of other parties."
Regrettably, the days of the Labour Party having principles are long gone. New Labour has long since espoused the laissez faire tory approach on free market economics. Blair and Brown's 'light touch' regulation has got us into the awful mess we're in. You can't even call it a party of champagne socialists any more. Just champagne - all gas and no substance.
Its distinctly possible that as a party Labour is finished. The sad thing is that the alternatives are just as bad if not worse.
Of course, there's always Plaid.... hehe
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Re 17
mapexx said,
"If anyone is a 'donkey', stupid ass even, look in your mirror for the answer to that."
But then he goes on to say:
"So I would be obliged if you do not call me a donkey."
However ... I went to help canvassing in a Valleys by-election a few years ago and was told by a Labour Party supporter that "... if you stuck a red rose up a baboon's arse down 'ere, we'd vote for it!" They were his words - I don't think he meant to insult himself or his community.
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Talking about Peter Hain, why has the BBC had all the Welsh MPs implicated in the recent spending scandals on their Websites, except him.
It has been in other blog sites and the Western Mail.
Is Peter Hain exempt for some reason, or have I missed it.
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Brynt41 Don Touhig's best friend
He who hath not sinned cast the first stone.....
Question. How does a party without many voters, no real policies and a cats chance in hell get in to power
Answer Proportional Representation
Question. Did Mike German get elected by popularity or by irregularity and is he lily white Brynt41?
Shouldn't have asked that because he is still a big player in the Lib Dems
Question Why do minority groups think they are whiter than white in this disgusting debacle.
With hundreds of seats belonging to the Labour and Conservative parties, obviously, more hands will be caught in the cookie jar. However in percentage terms Libs and PC parties are just as deplorable. Wait until the Jones report is made public then you will see Mike, Jocelyn and their friends running for cover.
Finally, on the subject of Donkeys.
Question How many years did Labour hold power in the last century
Answer 20 years.
The donkeys didn't have much of a say or was it the donkeys were voting for other parties?
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#21
I'm not an apologist for any of the parties. All politicians are under scrutiny as never before.
As far as 'donkey' voting is concerned if you bothered to actually read what I wrote, I was referring to WALES. If Labour's success in Wales had been mirrored right accross the UK, the Party would have been in government for most of the twentieth century.
"Question How many years did Labour hold power in the last century
Answer 20 years."
Actually, they were in 'government' for 23 years between 1900 (when the LRC came into existence) and 2000. Check your history, and get your facts right. Detail is important.
Keir Hardy, the first Labour MP (he actually represented the Independent Labour Party) was elected at Merthyr Tydfil and Aberdare in 1900.
Look at the number of seats the Labour party has consistently won in Wales from the 1930s onwards in EVERY general election, and the massive majorities many of their MPs had. Its true even of the last GE.
As far as corruption and abuse of public funds is concerned responsibility lies with BOTH the individuals and the system in which they operate. Greed is all too common. Many people will abuse their privileges if they think they won't get found out. That was the problem with the SYSTEM. No transparency.
Much as I disagreed with Blair's decision on the Iraq War, based on lies, I think it was a mistake for the three Plaid MPs to allegedly use their parliamentary office expenses for legal advice on the possibility of impeaching Blair. I would consider that a misuse of funds. The worst thing about such actions is that it lays the individuals concerned open to criticism or censure, when otherwise they could be seen as acting on principle.
Why are you asking me about Mike German? I'm not a supporter of the Liberals, and have never voted for them.
As far as 'casting the first stone' is concrned, politicians and those who put themselves foward for public service do so in the knowledge that their actions are subject to scrutiny, and rightly so. Their moral standing is also an issue. That is not the case with ordinary citizens.
The sickening thing about many of the grasping MPs who have been found out, is that they blame the system by claiming to have acted 'within the rules' when they actually had a choice of not being greedy and taking all they could get.
Touhig was the man who moved the amendment which would have prevented public scrutiny of MPs expenses. Fact. He also has a very large majority.
I'm not the only one making that correlation. Ben Bradshaw the Labour MP and Junior Health Minister on Question Time this week also pointed to the correlation between MPs majorities and the amounts they claimed in expenses.
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#22 I should have typed 'Keir Hardie', didn't notice until I posted the comment.
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Well brynt41 has depressed everyone again .....
..... it's a little like having Private Frazer of Dads Army around, we're doomed .....
Fortunately our postal voting form arrived today and to cheer myself up I just filled it in .....
..... DC gets mine. So not all is lost.
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Apology for being inaccurate Brynt41
Just a simple observation - you gave no comment on P R.
Consensus politics does not work. You rightly make a big play about transparency and accountability to the electorate. How do the people of Wales hold the WAG to account when both parties blame each other for their failings There is little accountability with consensus politics. Just ask the people of Torfaen. The next AM election will be interesting for both PC and Labour parties. Their activists will be knocking the doors claiming any successes for themselves and the electorate will come to the conclusion "They are all the same."
It won't be too long before everyone votes independent because each party will have lost it's identity, not that PC have one. Without their fight for Independence they have nothing.
Brnt41 please tell me why the party with a poultry number of votes should have a significant say in running the country. The people of Wales didn't vote for a nationalist government but it doesn't matter what they say does it Brynt41
Finally, please let us know if you think Jocelyn Davies is screwing the public purse by having a second home down the bay when she lives only 16 miles away.
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Re 24
I didn't know DC was standing in this one ...
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message 24...
Stony.. I refer you to message 53 on 'Asking Rhodri'.
Did you not notice that?
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It's all quite simple, if your first language is the fantastically expressive, World renowned English language and you feel instinctively British.
The future is not with Rhodri's 'Explicitly Welsh patriotic party' the future is blue, Conservative blue.
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Re 28
You said:
"It's all quite simple, if your first language is the fantastically expressive, World renowned English language and (sic) you feel instinctively British.
The future is not with Rhodri's 'Explicitly Welsh patriotic party' the future is blue, Conservative blue. "
Does that mean it's official - the Tories in Wales have no interest in and no sympathy for the Wels language? I didn't see that in their (your) official literature. Have they been lying to me?
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FiDafydd, DC is standing on the shoulders of the faithful, Westminster, Cardiff Bay et al.
mapexx, It was the electoral region of Wales, it didn't go unnoticed.
Have you heard the Welsh Language Board commissioned a survey "to determine whether people considered language more important than the environment".
Two points, who paid, and why ask the question?
On the first point, you paid.
On the second point, looking for a statistical crutch ....
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FiDafydd
The Conservatives have great plans for our region, we intend to lift people out of the depressive Plaid condition through .....
E3 (A Conservative slogan) ...
Education
Energy
Enterprise
No room for failure with the Union .....
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message 30...
Just another attck on the will power of the Welsh people.
A creationist whittling away of the resistence they are fearful of, so they use taxpayers funds to sneakily put the idea across with these phony polls.
As Frank Carson used to shout,... "It's the Way I tell 'em"
Or in this case,...... " The way they ask 'em"
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FiDafydd,
I'm just saying if you feel instinctively British, voting for a party who calls themselves...Explicitly Welsh, is asking for rule by caste system, isn't it?
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#25 nmp
All voting systems have advantages and disadvantages.
The big disadvantage with FPTP is that it gives large majorities to parties who got a minority of the votes cast.
Here are some examples:
1979 Thatcher: Percentage of the vote : 43.90% Con Majority - 43 seats
1983 Thatcher: Percentage of the vote : 42.40% Con Majority - 144 seats
1987 Thatcher: Percentage of the vote : 42.20% Con Majority - 102 seats
1997 Blair: Percentage of the vote : 43.21% Lab Majority - 179 seats
2005 Blair: Percentage of the vote : 35.30% Lab Majority - 67 seats
The majority of those who cast their votes did so for other parties in each election. The 2005 election is a particularly clear example of how undemocratic the system can get. Effectively, the majority of the votes cast are disregarded in EVERY election. Its an 'elective dictatorship'.
One of the effects is that voters who live in constituencies where one party has a huge majority feel that its pointless voting. So they don't bother. Turnout falls. The result is even more undemocratic.
These disadvantages can be eliminated by PR.
PR's main disadvantage, or so its claimed, is that it breaks the link between constituency and member. STV does preserve a link.
Democracy means 'government of the people, by the people, for the people'. FPTP fails on that score. Its government of the majority, by a minority. It only exists because of how the English/British political system evolved. The two party system pre-dated democratic elections. FPTP suits the two main parties as it guarantees each of them a turn in government sooner or later, without even having to persuade a majority of the electorate to vote for them.
Hopefully, although I'm not at all confident, there may be a degree of reform as a result of the present crisis. If I were a gambler though, I'd stake 50/1 against electoral reform (ie the abandonment of FPTP) taking place if Cameron (or Brown) is elected or relected. If the outcome of the election is a hung Parliament with the LibDems/SNP/Plaid/Independents holding the balance, then its a possibility.
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Off-topic nonsense from Dizzy..
http://dizzythinks.net/2009/05/can-you-read-that-license-plate.html
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alfsplace -20 Are you being facetious ? Or is it irony ?
Surely the reason for not picking on Hain is that you can't kick a man when he's down, and Hain doesn't really have any further to fall - his career altimeter shows him to have crashed and burned to the extent that he is now subterranean...
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#25 nmp wrote:
"The people of Wales didn't vote for a nationalist government but it doesn't matter what they say does it Brynt41"?
I missed that one.
The answer is, of course, that they didn't vote for a Labour government either.
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Re 28 and 33
I'm sorry, but your logic is somewhat wanting ... It excludes the possibility that English speaking Welsh men and women can feel intrinsically Welsh, or that Welsh speaking men and women can feel intrinsically British. So it was shoddy thinking presented as soundbite.
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Stonemason wrote [#30]
Have you heard the Welsh Language Board commissioned a survey "to determine whether people considered language more important than the environment"?
Sadly, that was one of the BBC's less fortunate attempts at translation. But it explodes the myth that you have to speak Welsh to work for the BBC. Those who read the original version in Welsh got the right story, the unfortunate ones who had to rely on the story in English were misled.
Take a look at this for an explanation of what the question actually was:
Lost in Translation
And, for a detailed analysis of the full report, [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator] you're welcome to read these:
Welsh Language Survey, part 1: Overwhelming general supportWelsh Language Survey, part 2: Strong business supportWelsh Language Survey, part 3: Final thoughts
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PS. Well said, Brynt [#34]. I agree with you completely about STV.
I believe the expenses scandal is just the straw that has broken the camel's back. The real problem is that the political system at Westminster is hopelessly unfair.
The principle that needs to be paramount is that Parliament should be able to hold Government to account for its actions, and exercise scrutiny over proposed legislation to make it better than it might otherwise be.
But under Westminster's arcane system, a party that gets a minority of the vote invariably gets an artificial majority of seats in the Commons. Therefore any government can push through legislation even when a clear majority of people in the UK object to it.
The most important thing we can do to heal Westminster's broken political system is to introduce proportional representation, preferably using STV because that gives voters the last word over which candidates get elected rather than political parties.
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I'll try again. This one doesn't link to part three twice.
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Stonemason wrote [#30]
Have you heard the Welsh Language Board commissioned a survey "to determine whether people considered language more important than the environment"?
Sadly, that was one of the BBC's less fortunate attempts at translation. But it explodes the myth that you have to speak Welsh to work for the BBC. Those who read the original version in Welsh got the right story, the unfortunate ones who had to rely on the story in English were misled.
Take a look at this for an explanation of what the question actually was:
Lost in Translation
And, for a detailed analysis of the full report [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]you're welcome to read these:
Welsh Language Survey, part 1: Overwhelming general supportWelsh Language Survey, part 2: Strong business supportWelsh Language Survey, part 3: Final thoughts
-
PS. Well said, Brynt. I agree with you completely about STV.
I believe the expenses scandal is just the straw that has broken the camel's back. The real problem is that the political system at Westminster is hopelessly unfair.
The principle that needs to be paramount is that Parliament should be able to hold Government to account for its actions, and exercise scrutiny over proposed legislation to make it better than it might otherwise be.
But under Westminster's arcane system, a party that gets a minority of the vote invariably gets an artificial majority of seats in the Commons. Therefore any government can push through legislation even when a majority of people in the UK object to it.
The most important thing we can do to heal the UK's broken political system is to introduce proportional representation, preferably using STV, because that gives voters the last word in which candidates get elected rather than political parties.
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MH____ in his independence day way defends the indefensible.....
..... protecting the Welsh language is as important as protecting the environment?
Fact .... the Welsh Language Board commissioned a survey ... part of which was required .....
"to determine whether people considered language as important as the environment".
The exact translation doesn't matter, what is important are the two points I asked at #30
..... who paid, and why ask the question?
On the first point, you paid.
On the second point, looking for a statistical crutch ....
It would be interesting to ask Mary, retired shop worker of Bridgend, if she had more pressing financial priorities, how would she have spent this money lavishly disbursed to support the unsupportable.
And I am not sure the people of the Pacific would agree with the sentiments expressed through the survey, as the ocean covers their Islands, they might like to ask the members of the Welsh Language Board for their views on the rising tide of irrational thought.
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lordBeddGellert
36
You may think so, I certainly can not comment. Though I did read somwhere this week that in the coming reshufle, Peter Hain will be brought back because of his electioneering and campaigning abilities which apparently are next to none.
Never underestimate the man he is a very shrewd Politician how many times has he changed his views over his career.
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With regard to the LCO concerning housing and "suspension" of statutory "RTB" as originally passed into law in Housing Act 1980 by Mrs. Thatcher's government,of blessed memory. This was a brilliant piece of public policy in that it allowed millions of "ordinary" people like myself the opportunity to buy and own their home.There were many Labour politicians who felt this was the work of the devil,but yet purchased their own properties for their own personal gain. Why should some "mickey mouse" group of politicians down the bay seek to remove rights given by Parliament nearly 30 years ago. If theres a need for more "social"housing there build them,however it does seem strange that in local press in Jane Hutt's constituence several HA's are actually advertising perfectly good housing for rent.The WLB is a QUANGO of the great and good as defined by King Rhodri 11 (what about bonfire of quango's) or is the acceptle face of quango land,because its your mates and matesses and therefore perfectly sound. These people in Quango land aint "daft" and any surverys will be so structured so as to get the result required. Here are some questions that I would like asked of the welsh people and english as well because their taxes are also involved.
1. Do you think the £100 million tax payers money given to S4C represent the best possible value for public money. 2. What is the average sum spent on educating children through welsh medium rather than english medium,and if more costly to public purse should not those cost rest with parents not with other parents who are happy with english language provision. 3 What % of jobs in BBC Wales at senior level are filled by welsh speakers in the english only channel,as BBC Cymru is there for "minority" interest. I'll never get a "mention" by BP but never mind "creeping" was never my strong point.
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#42 alfsplace1986 wrote:
"Peter Hain... ...he is a very shrewd Politician how many times has he changed his views over his career."
Flynn implies that Hain is some sort of political chameleon. He compared him with, 'Odo, Star Trek's shapeshifter who liquefies at the end of each day and sleeps in a bucket, then emerges later in any shape he wishes'. (P. Flynn, 'Dragons Led by Poodles: The Inside Story of a New Labour Stitch-up' (Politico's Publishing, 1999), p11.)
Hain may yet re-emerge. Brown is desperate. Half the members of his Cabinet have had their noses in the trough, and not one sacking or resignation. He and they are devoid of any integrity or moral fibre.
What all this emphasises is the way the electorate and the country are emasculated by the political system. We are helpless to do anything about it right now.
I have wondered why the party leaders haven't already decided (and done so, about a week ago) on a full disclosure of all the MPs expenses. This would have lanced the boil. Although painful, it would be over and done with. Either they haven't considered the idea, or have and couldn't agree, or couldn't face doing it, in the hope that large numbers of MPs will still get away with it. It doesn't reflect well on the leadership qualities of any of them.
#43
"...rights given by Parliament..."
Would this be the parliament which is full to the brim of overpaid, under-worked, corrupt, money-grabbing, selfish, greedy, incompetent sleazeballs who have been screwing the taxpayers for decades?
Your anti-Assembly rants would be more believable if your comments were balanced. Today, right now, the Assembly is not the problem. The institution which holds the real power and which created the Assembly is a shambles. That you totally disregard. The alternative to the Assembly is a return to the mess of Westminster. It suggests you're blind in at least one eye.
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Everyone should take issue with brynt41 when he writes of Snoutsintrough .....
"more believable if your comments were balanced"
..... he must have been blind with fury, brynt41 that is, from writing his previous paragraph .....
"Would this be the parliament which is full to the brim of overpaid, under-worked, corrupt, money-grabbing, selfish, greedy, incompetent sleazeballs who have been screwing the taxpayers for decades?"
..... temper, temper brynt41 .....
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FiDafydd #38
English speaking Welsh men and women can feel intrinsically Welsh,or that Welsh speaking men and women can feel intrinsically British.
Well put - A point I have been trying to make for a long time.
MH___ #40
The link you post;
Welsh Language Survey, part 1: Overwhelming general support Welsh Language Survey, part 2: Strong business support Welsh Language Survey, part 3: Final thoughts
You know as well as anyone that any survey conducted by the WLB is not worth the paper its written on.
The questions are worded to elicit a pre chosen response.
The WLB then spend thousands on pompous reports to trumpet the majority in Wales support them.
We waste vast sums (15 million pa at least) on this unelected, unwanted, dictatorial language/culture police bureau.
Given the current state of the economy we shouldn't pay them to produce propoganda, especially propoganda based on misrepresentation.
You also say Those who read the original version in Welsh got the right story, the unfortunate ones who had to rely on the story in English were misled.
Every one in Wales speaks English, why give an answer (to what is after all a nonsense question,)in a form that only a minority can read, and then complain that the translation misrepresents what was said.
Making a point or just childish petulance!!
Any one who puts the Welsh Language ahead of the environment needs professional help.
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#45 TheStonemason
Rabble-rousing again, Stonemason?
You need to sharpen your chisel a bit more.
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Rabble-rouser ..... Someone who tends to inspire mobs .....
..... who might be the mob you allude to?
A chisel can need a visit to the blacksmith, but often the weight of the hammer will overcome sharpness.
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"Is the Welsh language more important than the environment?"
What sort of a crackpot question is that??? I should have known it came from those gravy train riding fruitcakes in manufactured jobs at the Welsh language board! What possible purpose can the question serve anyway? or is it the case that after the recent cuts the welsh assembly government can now only afford to protect one of the two. Hmm, I'm sure the social engineers down the bay would hesitate for all of a minute before picking the language... typical!
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Another interesting blog subject totally destroyed by more bickering about language. Betsan, can I suggest that you always write two posts at a time - one relating to the topic of the day and another entitled 'Cymraeg - discuss'.
Let the usual suspects flagellate themselves in the Cymraeg discussion, while everyone else can have a sesnible debate in the main topic.
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Now Now Pen.. The post by BP specifically refers to Welsh Language LCO so the "usual suspects" have a right,nay duty to voice their concerns where the powers might take us if granted by Parliament. Any body who works and pay taxes is entitled to any opinion,within the law and if they think as I do that the welsh language has now become a very divisive factor in welsh life they can say so. All the questions by WLB and fellow travellers never put in the counterveiling information i.e. cost/inconvenience/sheer waste of resources etc etc so when people answer its allways in a positive sense,bit like the Stockholm Syndrome!!.
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penddu has a very selective view of the word, a reminder .....
Betsan included reference to the iniquitous Welsh Language LCO, thus creating a topic.
One of your own was responsible for the .....
..... survey "to determine whether people considered language more important than the environment", a Welsh Language Board commission.
The question relating to the competence of Welsh Language Board will of course be raised after the recess.
..... by the way penddu, how do you translate your pen name ?
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Message 50....
Below a line from Betsan's blog, about the last but four paragraph, as I recall.....
......"By the way what about the talks about the Welsh Language LCO? A joint meeting of AMs...."
NOW, what was that you were saying about the board being invaded by anti language folk, when there was no mention of language etc?.
In other words, the Blogger brought the language matter into it herself, MH_ further mentioned it, and myself, and others carried it along.
Maybe it is you that should look for another blog, where the language IS the blog, or not, as the case may be.
I, and others, are quite happy to discuss the in's and out's of the subject, each and every time the language is mentioned.
As I have mentioned before, the subject of a 'political Wales', in the eyes of the Cymraeg obsessed, is without doubt, totally dependent on the language, without it, all this stuff would be nonexistent anyway.
So as long as you people insist on attempting to turn Wales into a isolated and separated state, then I, and others, the vast majority in fact, who also live here, will perpetually insist of opposing that attempt.
Which of course means constant references to the language.
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51, 52 OK - Although most of the article was discussing the Housing LCO, I missed the reference to the Welsh Language LCO at the bottom of the aricle, so fair game - although still tedious.
ps Penddu = Black head - a reference to my hair colour not my spotty nose.
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penddu .....
the reason I asked is because there are a number of translations, one is a the bird called "black cap" a veritable songsmith of the hedgerows, whilst it could have referred to the black cap a judge would cover his/her head prior the sentence of death being passed.
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55 - Nothing as sinister - just an opposite to being a Pengwyn (Penguin)
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53 There is a large body of Welsh politics that exists beyond the Welsh language. It is unionists such as yourself who keep raising the language and turning it into a divisive issue - and as previously done by Neil Kinnock, Leo Abse etc in the past. But yours is a dwindling band as the majority of English speaking Wales are perfectly accepting and supportive of Cymraeg
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"..some of the senior noises off.."
Now, who would they be, Ms Powys?
There's Paul Murphy, the only MP from Wales who is in the Cabinet. IMO anti-Welsh, anti-devolution. Presently gagged by his government office, but we're all too aware of his views. Here's a Secretary of State who's proud achievement for Wales is that motorists can have the Welsh flag on their number plates. Big deal!
What about Don Touhig? He's hardly 'senior' other than he represented MPs selfish interests by attempting to keep their sleazy expenses claims from public scrutiny. This fella nearly succeeded. It took a leak to bring it all to light. They sack the Speaker for trying to do the same thing. Touhig will probably get a peerage.
IMO, the Labour minnows in the WAC couldn't organise a ****-up in a brewery. Even Welsh Labour didn't want Alun Michael in charge at Cardiff Bay.
The Welsh Affairs Committee has eleven members, six Labour, three Tories, one LibDem and one Plaid.
The Labour majority, just SIX people, on this pathetic little Committee prevents a democratically elected all-Welsh body consisting of 60 members from having legislative powers over the Welsh Language. It is OFFENSIVE. Do they expect us to believe that the Assembly is going to seriously threaten business and commercial interests vital to Wales' economy when it legislates to protect the Language? I think not. (Its not as if Labour HAS protected business and commercial interests in Wales).
Methinks they do protest too much. They're afraid their seats are going to be slashed when Cameron gets into power. Its probably going to happen anyway - there are too many of them. They're finally beginning to realise that they're on a loser. A little bit more devolution to a Labour-dominated Assembly might not be too bad an idea, before New Labour disappears for at least a decade, if not forever.
Slow-learners, or 'intellectually challenged', I'd call them.
Somewhere in the Bible there's a proverb, 'Where there is no vision, the people perish'. Someone put it another way, 'If you can't see the destination you can't walk the path'.
The Welsh Language has nearly perished for lack of vision, under the dead hand of Labour and Tories alike in an English-dominated Parliament. Its time for a change. Time for a clear-out.
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message 57...
I am sure you are right re the 'large body of Welsh politics' however I am not a Unionist, I am simply someone who sees no sense in disrupting the status quo between the region of Wales, and the rest of the British regions.
For sure, no matter how it is stacked up, the Assembly and devolution in general has done nothing, since 1997, that can be realistically and rationally shown to have benefited Wales.
Nor, as I see it, can it improve matters over the next decade, just more of the same lethargic and exceptionally costly nonsense.
We do not turn the language into a 'divisive issue', that is the realm of the language obsessed. What I and others do is turn into an issue is the misapplication of public funds towards the promotion of the language, a somewhat different matter altogether, it is you people who get it all confused.
You see any mention of the language as some sort of barb, and react according to that misconception.
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message 58....
When you get it wrong you do so big time Brynt.
Quote from your message...
".....The Welsh Language has nearly perished for lack of vision, under the dead hand of Labour and Tories alike in an English-dominated Parliament. Its time for a change. Time for a clear-out....."
The Language 'nearly' perished because the overwhelming majority who live here couldn't give a toss about it.
IT was DYING a natural death, by the inactivity of the majority.
Now thanks to stupid political jiggery pokery it is being FORCED into the daily lives of the very same majority that has perpetually rejected it over the last century of three.
Why don't you look at the matter pragmatically, instead of with your rose tinted specs on.
Much as the housing problems in rural Wales can ONLY be laid at the door of the locals, who jumped on the bandwagon of upgrading via price rises in property values, leaving, in their wake a plethora of poverty stricken neighbours and their oncoming children no pool of cheap houses to move into.
This again being the total falsity behind the LCO over housing. and why such LCO's should not be exposed to the light of day.
The Welsh, and I would guess that includes you, will not opt to sell their properties to [people who are locally based, being Cymraeg speakers or not, for sums of money that they can afford.
I don't know you, or your position in the property ownership stakes, but let us look at the situation.
You own a house that is tentatively 'valued' at say... £150k, along comes a local young couple looking at your house, all they can afford is about 30 grand.
Will you sell your house to them for what they can afford?
Of course you will not, so shut up, you are just as bad as any other person, be they Welsh, English, or Outer Mongolian.
Your arguments are totally fallacious because, you cry foul, but are not prepared to put you money where you mouth is.
Simply taking the governance of this region from Westminster and handing it to Cardiff Bay, will NOT alter circumstances, and as I, and others see it, will make things ten times worse.
When such Biblical commentary was written, there was no such thing as Radar, nor was language as sophisticated as it is today, so such adages hardly come into the modern day.
Today we have all sorts of 'Radar' experts to guide our actions, therefore we are unlikely to 'perish' for lack of vision, only from too much damned interfrence by pedants, such as you, who cannot mind their own business, but will insist in sticking their oar into other people's pools.
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"only from too much damned interfrence by pedants, such as you, who cannot mind their own business, but will insist in sticking their oar into other people's pools."
Whereas you Mapexx are the shy retiring type of course. I never quite got your "England's a nation" bag after. Would you like to re-iterate that particular hypothesis?
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#61 Dewi_H wrote:
"..you Mapexx are the shy retiring type of course... Would you like to re-iterate that particular hypothesis?
Don't start him off again.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
When brynt41 wrote at #58 .....
The Welsh Language has nearly perished for lack of vision, under the dead hand of Labour and Tories alike in an English-dominated Parliament.
..... the plot was indeed lost, but rather than a political demise as brynt41 would have us believe, the language .....
..... perished for lack of need in the modern world, in recent time its return has been manipulated by a minority wishing to return to an image of a previous time, no doubt this minority all wear standard issue rose tinted glasses.
Whereas Meri Huws of the Welsh Language Board would like to convince the taxpayers that people considered language more important than the environment, the majority are in truth ambivalent. There are more pressing issues, bringing up the family, are we balancing the budget, considering how much influence brynt41 has in the political world, people are not particularly interested except to ask .....
"how many hospital beds, how many ambulance crews".
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I have no intention whatsoever to continue on a Blog controlled by a BBC which is so protective of Plaid Cymru.
It has now become obvious to me that the other parties are not covered by a similar 'shield'.
Maybe the rumours are true. I have to say that my experience of the BBC, suggests that not all are treated equally.
Cheerio all.
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Noah_sembly,
If you stop, then democracy will have lost to the others .....
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Noah please do not get into the "Ark" and drift away as the band of brothers and sisters who do not intend being further driven away from the UK mainstream and into the welsh speaking,( socialist )(for some) utopia that PC and fellow travellers wish need all the help we can get. I plainly do not know what you posted but trust your judgement and only confirms my view that we need a Royal Commission into the role that BBC Wales seems to be playing at present.In my humble opinion its mantra on radio (now removed) BBC Wales-Your Nation- Your Station sums it all up really,in that it has gone much too far from its manadate which is to be a "broadcasting" organization,pure and simple.
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message 62...
Very noticable is your reponse to my previous message....None at all.
I wonder why...? run out of references to call on maybe?
Then again, you plump for silly and childish additions to someone else's comments to demonstrate just how invalid, and without any substance both you, and your usual commentary, is.
But how about answering, point for point, the comments I made in my previous message, #60...or is that too taxing for you?
No answers available in Wiki perhaps?
That's the problem with me is it not? I ask you questions, or point out matters to which you cannot possibly give a rational response, so as usual with you 'nation' hunters, you immediately opt for scurrilous insults, either directly stated, or via kiddylike support for others, who also make uncalled for remarks.
Yes, I will re iterate my 'hypothesis', which word, is, in itself, rather a strange way of refering to what I wrote, because in attempting to link it to the variety of definitions in the C.O.D, I actually found difficulty in doing so.
The main reason being, that 'hypothesis' simply means a propsition that is based on 'belief' rather than hard fact.
England IS, hard facts support the case, a NATION, and Wales a subsidery region thereof.
Plain and simple,.
Now, do you care to submit a counter 'hypothesis' of your own?
Keeping in mind it should be verifiable... in fact, not fancy.
I just lurve smart alecs, all mouth and trousers. But little substance or veracity.
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Taxpayers Alliance have listed the money taken for meals by four Plaid Cymru AMs during days at the Assembly during the period 2007-08 ....
They are ....
South Wales East - claimed UK Pounds 3,586.05
Ceredigion - UK Pounds 3,187.60
Mid & West Wales - UK Pounds 3,003.70
Carmarthen East and Dinefwr - UK Pounds 3,303.13
No doubt each will explain that it is all within the rules, but will they explain the average £109 per week food bill to the widower and retired shop worker from Bridgend who spends less than the average weekly bill for households, i.e. the whole family, in the UK which is currently £48.10.
I think the word I am looking for is hypocrisy.
Oh, I didn't mention, the weekly average of UK Pounds 109.00 is just to cover the 3 nights they stay in Cardiff.
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message 69....
No Dtoney, I must correct you again....
.....the word you are looking for is..... THEFT!.
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Re 68
m ap exx
You said:
"England IS, hard facts support the case, a NATION, and Wales a subsidery (sic) region thereof."
But hang on, that is not what you said last time! Then you said that England is a nation and Wales is a region of the UK. So which is it? And why are you so confused? And why should anyone take the slightest bit of notice of such shoddy thinking?
But we agree on one thing - England is a nation. And I'm glad to say that hard facts support something else also - that Wales too is a nation.
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"England IS, hard facts support the case, a NATION, and Wales a subsidery region thereof."
Right Map - you are now saying that Wales is part of England - interesting - You are the only person I have ever heard say that Wales is part of England - Do any other Unionist posters think this?
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message 72...
You another one with a tendency to insert your own meanings then?
I said, quite clearly, " a subsidiary region thereof," not a part of.
Look to your dictionary if you cannot read and comprehend. A normal failing of those who would have us something we are NOT.
Message 71...
Hard FACTS once again demonstrate you are WRONG, Wales is nothing but a region of the UK, and as England is THE internationally recognised major part,.... no,...due to it's size in population, geographic area, and economy in comparison to it's constituent parts, it's wealth, it's totality, it is effectively the 'THE UK!'
So, for all the reasons you deny, England can be assessed as the UK, it is to all intents and purposes, a nation, which Wales is not, for those very same reasons.
To make it clear enough for you to comprehend, when discussing international politics, GB is often referred to as 'London', Russia as Moscow, the US as Washington.
Which covers Wales, when in similar discussion we say Cardiff, when in fact we are referring to Wales en toto.
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Re 73
Well there we are, m ap exx has now completely lost the plot! He may not remember that not so very long ago he was stating quite categorically (and correctly) that Scotland too was definitely a nation. He has clearly changed his mind on that as well now! Do you remember? You said you couldn't give a damn if they did gain independence; something many found a strange comment coming from an ardent British nationalist.
Your answer to Dewi_H is nonsense, and your answers to us both pure gobbledygook. I'm beginning to agree with others that there really is no point in trying to debate with someone who just writes this kind of nonsense.
You have given two different definitions in this short space of time, perhaps we can expect more as the day progresses ...
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"I said, quite clearly, " a subsidiary region thereof," not a part of.
Look to your dictionary if you cannot read and comprehend. A normal failing of those who would have us something we are NOT"
I can understand English perfectly Mapexx - the benefits of a bilingual education..."a subsidiary region thereof" means a part of.
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message 75....
It is apparent you THINK you understand English perfectly, however, thanks to many decades of using the language I adhere to, I can assure you I do not use words that I cannot appropriately use in the correct meaning and or context.....
I will now relate to you the Con. Oxf. Dict. meanings of the word subsidiary....
First recorded use 1543.
Subsidiary: = Adjective & Substantive
1: Serving to help, assist or supplement. Auxiliary, tributary, supplementary.
2: Subordinate, secondary.
3: Depending on a subsidy or subsidies.
Three definitions. All of which apply to Wales in it's relationship, as a region of the UK, with it's next door neighbour.
There are further meanings applicable, but which do not apply in the context to which I applied the word.
PART(of), on the other hand you know well what that means, but I am reluctant to refer to the same dictionary, as the entry is far too expansive to make it worth while.
So I wouild be more circumespect in bragging about your bilingual education, at least until you are as well versed in the meanings of words, to the same extent as yours truly is, in his one tongue.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Try "thereof" Map - might learn something.
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Re 76
But you've changed your mind again!!!!
Now you're saying:
"Three definitions. All of which apply to Wales in it's (sic) relationship, as a region of the UK, with it's (sic) next door neighbour."
Now Wales is back as a region of the UK. You have no idea what you believe in.
But at least we now know that you do think the Welsh are subordinate or secondary to the English. I wonder what the people of Torfaen think of that ...
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Mapexx - Manchester's very own Ian Paisley.
He is so wrong on most issues - easier just to ignore
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message 80...
I will do you the courtesy of politely asking you to list message numbers of those where I am wrong; please do not list silly messages from fi fi et al, where the sole reason for the message is nothing more than nit picking. Or offering further emphasis to his previous lies.
So do go ahead and start listing.
I am sure all would love to check up on your version of 'wrongness'
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Mappex - I am not wasting my time listing things for you, but the obvious headlines are:
- everything you have stated on Wales not being a nation
- your views on Monmouthshire not being part of Wales
- your history of Ulster
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m ap exx
How about trying to explain the inconsistencies that I have noted in no.79, rather than having the usual rant ...?
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message 84...
You are incapable of comprehending anything written in English, so you will get no more from me, for the lying twerp you are. End of.
Message 83...
No you will not do so, because there are none.
I have given you adequate factual reasons why Wales is NOT a nation, but you are to damned obtuse to accept them, Your problem not mine.
I have NEVER, get this, NEVER made any comments whatsoever about
Monmouthshire's status, be it regarding Wales, or England.
I have always accepted it to be an enigmatic situation, but on a personal basis, I have accepted it to be in Wales, as far as modern times are concerned.
However, with reference to your message, I repeat, I have NEVER made issue of it.
If you wish to refer back to which message you dreamt I did so, then
please be so good as to list it.
I would sure like to know when I made such issue of it.
My history of Ulster was at best sketchy, being called from scant memory, and from talking to many Ulster men when working in the shipyards on Merseyside.
I feel I got a better 'take' on Ulster from them, from both sides of the 'divide', that most get from reading arid history books, which seems to be the method that most who comment on here, from a Cymraeg side of things seem to use.
Therefore, the whole of the message #83 you created, for whatever reason, is fallacious in the extreme.
You begin to look very much like Fi Fi, no doubt your snout grows a pace also.
Pinocchio, mark 2
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Mapexx, In hindsight I might be confusing you with someone else on Monmouthshire, and I therefore apologise for that.
I acknowledge your admission that your Ulster history was sketchy, and I accept your non-stated apology.
But with regards your opinions on the Welsh nation, I fundamentally disgree with you for the reasons I have stated many times. While you may hold very strong views on this subject, it does not make them any more right. In fact you are WRONG!
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Re 85
Just as I thought, m ap exx has been caught out by his inconsistencies and inadequacies, and cannot answer. And when m ap exx cannot answer he usually has one course of action: he sulks, rather like the schoolyard bully. Shame though, I would have liked to know why he is so unclear about what he claims to believe in.
But there we are, rant followed by sulk.
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message 86....
OK! then, show me, in factual terms, how I am wrong.
By the way I did not imply any apology, I stated it as it is and was.
Now let me clear something up, I do not make mistakes such as confusing someones messages as from another person, as I answer directly to what appears on the page.
But YOUR apology is noted.
Message 87...
Please describe my inconsistencies, fool.
I am sick of explaining things to you, only to have you come back with the very patently obvious stupid comment I have not responded, but what in fact you really mean is you have been unable to comprehend.
Such is your problem, not mine.
I am still waiting, and have been a for a couple of months, all told, for the message numbers where I have supposedly made remarks, which you claim I have made.
The longer you take in responding to that, the longer grows your nose, Pinocchio.
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Mapexx - I am big enough to admit when I make a mistake - you clearly are not - you are acting like a spoilt child, and I am sure that when your side lose the referendum you will cry and stamp your feet and try and take away the ball. I cant wait.
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Re 88
OK m ap exx, as you are clearly not able to work it out for yourself I will have to explain it for you.
Recently you said that England is a nation, and Wales merely a region of the UK. But now what you're saying is that England is a nation and Wales is a part of England - and never mind the ridiculous word gymnastics you have attemted to get you out of having said it.
There is the inconsistency; and that is just another example of your shambolic and shoddy thinking.
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message 89...
Do carry on... I wish you to tell me where, and when, I have made a mistake, not just keep on like a lost lamb bleating for its mam.
Others read this blog, and as long as I keep on at you to provide that which you claim for, as I do with FiFi, who also cannot provide the evidence to back up his wild and untruthful allegations, no more than you can, or do, then those readers will arrive at conclusions that will not favour yourself.
Other than more of your ilk, who would applaud a dog crapping if they thought it supported your version of the way Wales should travel in the future.
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91 I do not need to provide references - your words are enough.
Regular readers of this blog have already made up their minds about you and I do not need to help them form their opinions. Personally I enjoy reading your deluded posts as it removes any doubt about the credibility of your views and your tiny band of Untrue Wales supporters.
Keep it up
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Message 93....
The first sentence sums up your own capability I am afraid.
You are one of those who snipe from the touchline, you are a thwarted referee, who could not control a game due to your incapability to stick to any sort of rules of debate.
Your argument relies on the childish, when shown to be in the wrong you cast and flail about using personal remarks and veiled insults in order to try for the sympathy of others.
I would say it is yourself who is being seen for what you are by the readers of this and other threads on this blog.
You are a wimp in argument, and a spoiled brat in debate.
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Sadly mappex, your post at 94 just adds weight to mine at 93. Enough said
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message 95...
Another meaningless message.
Care to go further?
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