Cats and empty bags
The Deputy First Minister doesn't go in for hyperbole - it must be the measured country solicitor in him.
So when Ieuan Wyn Jones says that "going forward into the next decade, Welsh public services will be badly affected" by cuts to the block grant, you can be quite sure that he means it. Tonight he described those budget cuts as "pretty severe indeed ... not just next year but well, well into the next decade".
On that he's in agreement with Plaid economics guru Eurfyl ap Gwilym, the man who costed their 2007 assembly election manifesto. He anticipates that between 2011 - 2014 the money the Assembly Government will have to work with "will be about £600m less than it would have been looking back a year or two. There'll be a real cut of about 2.3% and to that of course we have to add inflation. So it'll be a reduction of about 4.4%".
And when that sort of aqueeze happens, it's inevitable that jobs will have to go.
His figures. His predictions. But what does Ieuan Wyn Jones makes of his suggestion that to govern with less ought to mean bye-bye to free-for-all policies?
The adviser says:
"This idea of universal services is attractive as long as it's affordable. But I think a crunch is going to come ... For instance take free prescriptions by and large the people who benefited from free prescriptions in Wales, the extension of free prescriptions, are people on middle and higher incomes. It could be argued why should you be spending public money there rather than targeting that money on people on very low incomes? Similarly we've got this issue of university tuition fees which I warned about several years ago. A large proportion of young people going to university are still those who come from middle income families. Is that where you're going to put your money rather than helping children from poorer families say with free school nurseries?
The party leader and Deputy First Minister says:
"I think that free prescriptions have to be in a particular category of a universal service that we believe is necessary for people, but there may well be other things that you have to look at ... but what I will say to the people of Wales is - we will be sensible in the way we approach it, but you have to understand that sometimes there are fundamental issues that you have signed up to as a party."
The Tories say Eurful ap Gwilym has "let the cat out of the bag" on impending cuts. It must have struck them that whoever is left holding the bag after the General Election will find that cat, or no cat, it's pretty empty.
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
© MMX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~52~RS~)
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'Diwedd y gan yw y geiniog' - and that penny has dropped.
People will blame 'English Government' [or lack of it..]
Labour maladministration. Tory Bankers.
The fact is Wales cannot go on being a 'client state' solely dependent on the public purse.
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Of course, the flip side to the coin is that cutting public spending simply does not mean the end of the world. It just takes Wales back to the situation it should have been in had successive administrations not put all their eggs in the 'taxpayer funded' basket.
If Wales could cut red tape and cut the business rates paid to local councils it could become a world-beater. It has to adapt to a new world where it doesn't swallow the old line that 'you are rubbish' therefore you cannot survive without handouts.
Wales doesn't need independence, but it does need a measure of autonomy to allow it to stand on its own two feet. And less of the ridiculous squabbling we saw in the previous post, much of which bordered on racial prejudice.
I don't care whether speak Welsh, English or Spanish. Or whether they feel Welsh, English or just British. Or European. For the time being all our money is the same colour - and we need a new way of working which will be pragmatic and allow an enterprise economy of entrepreneurs to rise up - without us making excuses for ourselves and others.
We have to stop thinking that money and jobs come only from the public sector. There is nothing wrong with the public sector - we need nurses and teachers. But jobs come from the small businesses who grow into big businesses. Can't we find a way to get Westminster to push back the tide of legislation from Europe to unleash the 'Celtic Tiger' ?
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It is most interesting that there is no mention of specific cuts in overhead costs.The so called Senedd costs are at least £50m revenue every year and a leaked document a while ago said that there were 1200 too many staff in WAG suggesting potential savings when staff overheads are included of upwards of £50m PER YEAR. There would be a significant one off payment to pay off people but the lack of control over staff costs over ten years is now shown creating a huge problem. Yet no mention from Government or Opposition parties about this but they have their own snouts in the trough as is well documented and have a common desire to hang on to it.
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Anyone noticed how it's always Ieuean Wyn Jones who announces the bad news, while lame Duck Rhodri - the man who's actually been in charge of the so-called Red Water government - only gets to announce good things or non-political things, like sports tournaments and stuff like that?
This is 10 years of Labour rule in Cardiff, and 12 in Westminster we're talking about - and yet Rhodri still manages to spin us the 'man of the people' 'Labour is best stuff', while leaving Plaid trying to hold together the business of actually telling people straight that these are tough times and cleaning up the mess.
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It has been the Westminster opposition that has been warning the electorate about the profligate spending by Government in Westminster, and the coalition in Cardiff have been no better, spending like there was no tomorrow.
For Plaid to announce the future budgetary problems are Labours alone is just political posturing and positioning, Ieuan Wyn Jones with chum Eurfyl ap Gwilym would like to distance themselves from the child like spending policies of the government they share.
No chance, there are too many people who will say, Plaid was part of that government .....
..... "never before has so much been wasted by so few" .....
..... and for what - "Nation Building", mostly at the instigation of Ieuan Wyn Jones and friends.
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Cut the costs - get rid of the Westminter lot who gravy-train their way to London from Wales. Get rid of the Monarchy - how much does that cost a year? Stop invading far off places, keep an eye on bankers. Easy really.
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Message 2...
I agree with the Right Hon LBG, he has without doubt caught the right strain in his message, just one small part I have difficulty with...
......."Wales doesn't need independence, but it does need a measure of autonomy to allow it to stand on its own two feet.".....
In stating that the business rates to LA's should be cut, it would be more appropriate for the 400 or so millions being paid to Cardiff Bay for their input(admin costs etc)be cancelled the whole thing dispensed with, and the 400 mil distributed amongst the LA's to support efforts in each and every locality that has seen dramatic reductions in services, in particular the surfaces of our roads, which according to reports, now stand at 15 years behind schedule.
400 millions would eat a helluva good chunk out of that backlog, which in turn would employ thousands, put less stress on our transport, both personal and commercial, and relieve the LA's of much of the stress they are under trying to hold back the mountain of complaints, as well as the drastic, and ever increasing load on their backs, for the mess our roads are in
I would say that there are very loud sighs of relief that the Newport M4 bypass is shelved, saving the Welsh economy some billion pounds, but the prospective jobs, which could have been generated, can easily be taken up by the ability of the LA's to resurface and maintain the rest of the failing road network.
In practical terms, those becoming unemployed, should the Cardiff Bay enterprise be terminated, would soon be reemployed attending to the massive backlog of work needed to bring our infrastructure up to date.
15 years of backlog will take up quite a few extra hands, so no need to fall back onto the dole queue for sustenance.
A trip to the council highways department will take care of the unemployment, as long as that 400 millions gets disbursed in an applicable manner.
But to return to Mr Earful son of Willy, and his pronouncements re the economic outlook, if he was to be true to himself, he would admit the whole scheme a failed enterprise, unsustainable, unless underwritten by the GENERAL taxpayer, and instead of merely making statements that confirm our concerns, however in a minuscule manner, he would declare for eradication, at least until the whole economy has been corrected.
The maybe, and perhaps, we could follow The R Hon LB G's idea and set up a supervisory regional council with limited powers that could direct Wales in a practical commercial manner, but leaving the LA's to run things as they normally, and with reasonable success, so do.
But under the caveat that it functions solely as an oversight council, not a potential government of a relatively disparate region.
Further, I see that Westminster has not learned the lesson of failure in it's devolutionary applications.
As of this morning, it has been announced a 5000 job regional assembly is to be installed in Manchester, to 'cover' the north West, as though authorities with the strength of clout, and capabilities of Manchester, and Liverpool, need such a local 'Whitehall' to poke it's snout into their business.
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Stranger and stranger - an assembly is a bad thing for Wales - a horribly bad thing evidently (waste of money, undemocratic, etc)....
Unless there are more of them in other parts of the UK - Manchester apparently will get one 'installed' - what about a referendum then? The will of the people etc..
And if Manchester gets and assembly and Liverpool and Birmingham...then they become a good thing.....
Stranger and stranger....
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message 8...
I believe I made my feelings quite clear in the matter of the announced 'Whitehall' for Manchester, so unless you are saying you think it OK, what was the point you were making?
Strange is surely the tenor of your message.
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Mess 9: - Yes you are quite correct. Please accept my apologies. I read it too quickly and accept that you were in fact being critical of Westminster for suggesting regional assemblies, which is in line with your past comment. Mea Culpa.
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#6 Cilmyn
The cost of operations in Iraq and Afghanistan last year amounted to 4.5 billion, not to mention the cost in human lives. The UK defence budget in this fiscal year will amount to 37.4 billion, over a third of what is spent on education, and of the health budget. Its planned to spend 18.5 billion on Trident over the next 13 years. The cost of simply maintaining the Trident submarines over the next five years will be 770 million. The two planned gigantic aircraft carriers will cost 4 billion.
The cost of Parliament (Commons and Lords) in 2007 was 455 million.
The cost of the National Identity Scheme (Database and ID Cards) will be over one billion, at current estimates.
The monarchy costs 150 million a year (including security and tax breaks). Security just for princesses Beatrice and Eugenie will cost between half to three-quarters of a million pounds for a year. This is not to mention the fantastic wealth of the royal family, which it obtained down the centuries on the backs of ordinary people's efforts, by fair means or foul.
Wales doesn't need any of these things. In total they cost thousands of pounds per head of Wales' population, far more than the difference between what Wales pays into the Exchequer, and what it receives in return.
Imo it was a strategic error for IWJ to enter the coalition with Labour. The economic downturn was already on the horizon, and was predicted, although its severity was not apparent. Cuts to the Assembly's budget were inevitable. Regrettably, Plaid is on a loser, what little kudos and experience it gets from its minor role in a weak administration, will be heavily outweighed by being associated with Labour's failures and the deep cuts which will take place before the next Assembly elections. As daverodway points out IWJ gets to be the bearer of bad news.
Can he realistically exit now? Labour is reneging on the One Wales Agreement. Its a Labour Chancellor and Prime Minister who are cutting Wales' budget, and are responsible for the mess the economy and the country is in.
Ieuan, you can still save face if you do it now. You entered the coalition in good faith, and they have broken their word. Labour has made the LCO process unworkable and refused to elevate Plaid's three nominees to the Lords. What more evidence do you need?
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Message 11, bryn41
I think one of the best arguments for independence is indeed the cost of imperialism and also the mismanagement of the economy - I think it was lordbeddgelert who was quoting 60billion as the price that Wales would be lumbered with in term sof the share of the national debt, if independence were to happen today - compare that with the 20-25billion tha was being quoted on this site by posters a few months only ago - not being independent has cost us 30billion in less than six months (we had no vote on that spending either).
The time to split is nos when we can still afford to - this time next year who'll know what the debt will be?
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message 12...
Please enlighten me, how on earth do you come to the conclusion that Wales can just pack up and leave.
It may be possible for the disgruntled element of the population to so do, but what could Wales as a geopolitical entity use for collateral to enter the world outside.
You own nothing here in Wales, every stick and stone every pane of glass, all the sewers, water, power generation, gas, the lot, is owned beyond Offa's Dyke. And, I do not mean by the English alone.
How would you propose we pay the massive amounts of money to the shareholders of those enterprises, when we have nothing, except what is generated fiscally, and which, up to last year, only produced 2/3rds of our income?
Or is it in your mind, those firms will simply roll over for the great big powerful Assembly WAG?
For whatever you feel hard done by, you are not in any position to follow the line set by Brynt, for the simple reason, his political knowledge may be substantial, but his political acumen is at primary school level.
We are not talking extracting a painful tooth here, we are talking sedition, which could easily lead to a round up of those involved, with a term of vacation at her Majesty's pleasure.
To reconstitute Wales as a independent nation, we need to be seen to be self sufficient, and that does not come from making simplistic statements that we should heave off into the void.
There are far too many links that would need breaking, and under present constitutional arrangements, I can see no rationale for doing so, or any rational way for it to be done.
The games played up until quite recently, have seeded the ground for the idiotic to start their shenanigans, as occurred yesterday in north Wales where an English student was attacked because he is English. Added to which is the little snippets coming from various governmental sources, openly as in the remarks of Hazel Blears yesterday, that she fears open rebellion is being stoked up, and covertly, by implication of what is likely to occur, thanks to much of the legislation put on the statute books in recent times, for what is claimed to be 'terrorist' incursion, or contrivance, but in reality, can be used at any time, to suppress civil disobedience.
The proof of which was demonstrated recently, by the use of such law to penalise people for dropping litter, or not parking properly, and in a couple of cases, leaving their bins out the day before collection was due.
Oh! yes,... G Brown slapped those councils down, but did he do so for their petty-mindedness, or because he envisaged some, like myself would see the inherent dangers to government, when civilians were likely to become fractious?
No my friend, I fear you take the easy line, but you should be prepared for the rocky road ahead, and put a Welsh independence, or even power increase, to one side, it will not happen in any way related to what Bryn, who I have no doubt is a genuine chap at heart, has in his mind.
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£1220bn spent on the banking rescue, but not enough money for Wales. On top of the money spent on the Olympics it shows pretty clearly where the attentions of politicians are (London) and the places which suffer due to these attentions (Wales, Scotland).
#12 says that we will now have a debt burden of £60bn if we were indpendent. But how much of that £60bn has been spent on, or in Wales? A law making Assembly with tax raising powers would make the situation in Wales slightly less unbearable.
#11 You forgot the banking rescue and the >>>£2bn internet surveillance databse! And this may be of an advantage to Plaid because it seems that any important announcements are now being made through them, they have turned from the junior partner into the partner which makes the honest and important announcements.
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#13
"... every stick and stone every pane of glass, all the sewers, water, power generation, gas, the lot, is owned beyond Offa's Dyke. And, I do not mean by the English alone."
That's a completely spurious and illogical argument. In a break-up of a nation state, the publicly owned infrastructure would be based on a pro-rata split. What you fail to take into account is that Wales (notionally) owns a pro-rata share of the infrastructure of the ENTIRE UK. That would work out in general as equal to that infrastructure which lay within Wales' boundaries. That would mean England, or England and Scotland, keeping their pro-rata shares.
In the case of private companies owning assets, then that would be no problem. Those companies would continue their ownership. In fact, clearly, many of the existing utility companies in the UK are already foreign owned. That isn't a problem, when it comes to division of assets.
There would be some UK assets the share of which Wales wouldn't need or want, so it would expect some compensation for its share of those, e.g. MoD lands and properties, naval bases, even Crown lands in Wales could be the basis for negotiation etc. These details would be worked out after a successful referendum on self-determination. Wales would not be the loser in that respect.
At least, if you are to make a case, let it be sensible, valid and legitimate. Think before you comment, is my advice.
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Cilmyn the New brynt41 incarnate possibly, he [she] has the hallmarks of separatist hysteria. The same "Crud" just a different label.
Now Brynt the hysterical accuses mapexx of spurious and illogical argument, when in fact mapexx is correct, as a dyed-in-the-wool socialist he has watched with despair as the UK utilities have been privatised, merged, and finally sold to companies from afar. There is an error in your contribution mapexx, Welsh Water, it is a not for profit entity created by the very same political elements that would destroy the United Kingdom, this is the water company that finds it difficult to consistently supply clean water to its customers.
The rest of Brynt's contribution at #15 compares well with Through the Looking-Glass, it makes as much sense as does the Jabberwocky.
Smoke and Mirrors Brynt, you just have smoke and mirrors.
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I'm amazed by the mindless puerile ramblings of some of the posts here.
Back in 1997 devolution was an opportunity for us to run the services and deal with issues that were particular to Wales, with our own elected representatives.
We were initially funded with 9 billion a year, that has now risen to 15 billion.
We have accessed vast sums of European money.
All that money has been available for our representatives to use build our economy and provide the services we all depend on.
The result of their efforts has been pitiful.
By whatever measure used to judge the performance of the NAW it has failed.
Money and assets both intellectual and physical have been wasted.
Everything that the Assembly has powers to control is worse now than 1997.
Our economy is 70% based on public services.
But it is the private sector that has to provide the wealth to pay the bills, and that has declined by some 50%.
Yet the infrastructure, the scaffolding which our private economy needs to grow and thrive has been ignored. The WDA which brought Jobs and investment into Wales has been disbanded.
Despite the Welsh work force which is recognized as probably the most reliable, skilled, and hardworking, in the world, bureaucracy & business rates are driving industry away.
Now our Deputy First Minister is telling us we need to tighten our belts because of global economic problems.
We've been through the days of plenty - where is the profitable businesses that should have been built up - where are the efficient public services - where is the infrastructure.
What has the NAW been doing!
The call from some here is that our desperate state is all the fault of the UK government.
Well they are right - but for the things that count the things we need to depend on now (health, education, road & rail networks) we have run for the last 12 years.
So the answer is we should give these wasters more powers, or better still, free ourselves from the UK and take total responsibility for our own affairs.
You are NUTS!
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Message 16....
Yes Stony I am aware then Welsh Water/Dwr Cymru, is a 'not for profit' enterprise, but they are effectively but one who hold reins in the water industry in Wales, as I understand it.
Besides which, should the Tory Party gain control of Westminster in the next GE, what is to say they will not revoke WW's franchise? and dispose of WW to their pals in the City, as 'her greatness' did, after Ted Heath 'nationalised' the rest of the water industry, by wresting it from the hands of the councils across the UK, in preparation for privatisation.
I am sure that Severn Trent hold a very large proportion of the industry in Wales, particularly reservoirs, with the associated distribution and transportation pipeworks.
Also, does not North West have similar establishments in Wales?.
Or at least, Liverpool certainly did, at Lake Vyrnwy.
Anyway, the point was that it would not be the simplistic and easy matter some folk believe it to be, to simply pull out from the Union.
That, I am sure you, like I, fully comprehend, even though some, as blind as church mice, do not.
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re 18 And as poor as bats, as well ?
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message 19....
Got me in one.
Should I hang my head in shame?... in mitigation,I blame the booze.
But well spotted, terrible what a large brandy does for one, eh?
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Independence, unfortunately, is not on the agenda at the moment. What is on the agenda is budget cuts. While some seem to welcome this I don't, for I see real cuts in the provision of front line services. In a recession you borrow to keep what is vital going. That is the conventional wisdom. However we have as a backdrop a financial bail out, which no one denies (with the exception of a handful of maverick extreme right wingers) would have been done by what ever party was in power in Westminster. The size of it would have increased borrowing enormously, and despite the spin provided by the Tories, the level of which is way off the scale. Even if there had been no previous public sector borrowing requirement the borrowing to bail out the banks was such that we would still have required massive state load, the size of which we have not seen in peace time.
The knock on for Wales is serious. I don't think anyone can deny that. The way out, difficult, certainly giving us power over company taxes would help, as would proper investment in companies that can switch the economy to a more ecologically sound base (note I am not talking about the state running such companies). We have to invest in the future, and if some of that is in the public sector good, if some of that is through a revitalized public sector even better. If we are looking for budget cuts then Trident and the huge aircraft carriers would be a good start. After all we can never use nuclear missiles so why have them, they aren't a deterrent against the threats we face in a modern age, just a left over from Britain's imperial past. Then cut the new ID card database - another waste of money that isn't proven to do any good. Yes scale back on the monarchy (abolish it preferably). If you want to get rid of waste then invest in a program of insulation and energy conservation in all public buildings - it pays for its self quickly and provides welcome employment in that sector and saves us money year in year out.
Stonemason talks about nation building and seems to suggest that costs us money, I am not sure what he is referring to, but I can guess. The Wales Millennium Centre costs a tiny amount compared to what is sent on the arts generally in London, and gives great value in return, both in performances and in the income generated for the economy. Again its an investment. Likewise the National Botanical Garden, a huge boost to the tourist infrastructure of West Wales as well as being an asset. I think we are into people seeing the cost of everything and the value of nothing here. The "drain" on the public purse is negligible yet gives such value that to do away with them would be criminal. We are a nation and anything that includes the word national in it seems to generate some negativity from some. Yet the provision of such venues is no different to what you see in the large English cities, witness places like Birmingham with the Birmingham Rep and the Hippodrome, home to the English National Ballet. The spending there is fairly equivalent to arts expenditure in Wales, and again it is value for money, generating far more income as a result of its presence than it gets in public subsidy.
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Betsan wrote "that whoever is left holding the bag after the General Election will find that cat, or no cat, it's pretty empty."
But is it pretty empty, it will certainly be light by about 300 million pounds, but by any measure the bag is not empty.
It will be about cutting your coat according to your cloth, you only buy things that you have sufficient money to pay for. And it is here that the problem rests, politicians will be making the decisions.
Ieuan Wyn Jones and Eurfyl ap Gwilym are first out of the traps ..... with an attack on universal services, the first offensive is made against the NHS in Wales, specifically prescriptions charges, the tone of the pronouncement attacks the hypothetical beneficiaries who might have what they termed middle and higher incomes.
Well I have news for this disparate duo, 6 years ago I: received and email from WAG health Minister who stated .....
"... therefore it is cost effective, free [sic.] prescription are a weapon in the hands of health care professionals, it is cheaper to proscribe free medication for hypertension that treat the same person as a stroke victim, and that is without consideration for the well-being of the patient and family".
Cutting this budget would be counter productive in the medium to long term, no contest.
The second issue "it's inevitable that jobs will have to go".
Not so, with interest rates at a historic low, inflation in negative territory, why are the public services still in line for pay increases. Keep the jobs, cut the pay, postpone pay rises and introduce affordable pension provisions.
Education is tricky, but only if you are gutless, the country [and here I mean the UK] does not need half of its young people at University, Liberal Democrat Vince Cable has had the backbone to say it as it is. We do need more skilled workers.
School, how about changing the start year to those age 6. Give the children their childhood back, other European countries do it with great success.
So Betsan I disagree, the bag's not empty, it just needs prioritising, and I haven't mentioned the obscene amounts of money being spent by the WAG on Nation building.
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Well been away for 10 days and the "real" world is now presented as an opportunity for NATS and fellow travellers to present current problems as an opportunity/reason for Wales to go independant. Talking to German vets the economy in Deutchsland is in freefall because of "world" situation and some of the assumptions of public provisions for elderly etc are being revisited because there aint the cash any more. How any body can realistically propoise that wales (which is poor as yellow water) and need english subsidies to provide a basic standard of living could generate enough wealth to survive on its own is surely a joke. Once again speaking to English vets (some of whom came from wales) are mightily annoyed with the current DEVO settleement with all those Scots running England with all the english money flowing to celtic fringe. The stark situation is that every country in the world is having to adjust to current situation both in terms of economic performance and structural changes that are happening in society such as a)increase longevity of pensionsers(particularly better off) who are demanding more and more resouces b)medical cost due to a and technical advances c)growth of underclasses who have no intention of working and quite the reverse are costing fortune in policing see Baby P etc). The choices facing Wales in future years are going to be pretty stark but the sooner that reality takes root the better and for once the issues raised by PC "economic" expert are aposite and need consideration. The problem is our political masters in wales are so attuned to ever growing public funds to pass out to "client state" that they will never grasp the nettle and cut back the overweening state. In conclusion even the Irish who have reached "iconic" status amongst NATS are now having to confront reality with swingeing increased taxation/reduced public expenditure to balance books,and they ( Irish people) also pay £10 each time they visit Doctor which would be good idea this side of water.
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#23 Snouts
"..even the Irish.. ...are now having to confront reality with swingeing increased taxation/reduced public expenditure..."
Indeed, and it isn't going to happen in Wales because Wales is part of the UK? The really swingeing cuts and tax hikes here will take place after the general election, and certainly from next year.
True, there is a worldwide economic crisis, but its origins lie in the US and UK's poorly regulated financial sectors (See 'Dispatches' Ch4). The rest of the world is paying the price for Bush, Blair, and Brown's errors.
The BoE is buying up billions of pounds of UK government debt every week, with paper it has printed, backed up with no assets. Its euphemistically called 'quantitative easing'. Printing money to pay one's debts is a really desperate measure, a last resort. Which other western countries are doing this? None that I know of. Its effects are pernicious. It penalises the hardworking, the prudent, and the thrifty. Their wages, salaries, savings and pensions will be devalued significantly and on top of the recent 30% slide in sterling's value against major currencies. The price is hefty inflation on all imported goods, and eventually spreading thoughout all the sectors of the economy.
This is a price Wales is paying and will pay BECAUSE its part of the UK, and its decades of really awful government. Don't point to Blair's ten years of prosperity, they were built on debt.
We are only at the beginning of the process. The Irish are having to face up to their economic woes right now with harsh measures, but their economy will pull out of the recession without the massive inflationary pressures Wales will experience. Wales is and will remain at the mercy of whoever is the occupant of 11 Downing Street. History has shown that in downturns, and this is the worst since the Depression, Wales suffers badly.
"Talking to German vets.. ..speaking to English vets"
Seems you've been barking up the wrong trees, or perhaps you are just 'barking'?
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.... further to #24 ....
Brynt41 wrote ....
This is a price Wales is paying and will pay BECAUSE its part of the UK, and its decades of really awful government.
It reads as if the people of Wales took no part in the activities of the last decade or more, as if the people of Wales were not buyers and sellers of debt. There needs to be a reality check almost everyone took an active part in the events that has brought on this recession, geography is not the issue.
And almost everyone will pay the piper because we all forgot to cut our coat ... , including the politicians at Cardiff Bay. Tomorrow would never come, brynt41 conveniently omitted any mention of personal financial responsibility, there is no conspiracy, just "maxed out credit" political and personal.
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I agree with what Lyn_Thomas and Brynt have said... with the exception of abolishing the monarchy.
I believe that any independent Welsh legislature will have the same four or more factions battling to push forward its own agenda. And in this scenario, I think the restoration of a Welsh prince resident within Wales would engender the affection and allegiance of the Welsh people above petty party politics, in much the same way as the Queen of the Netherlands does there, a country with many factions. Another benefit of a Welsh monarchy would be of course the Welsh royal family who would personify a Welsh national identity and reside in Wales.
As for the cost of a Welsh monarchy, well a Welsh monarchy would be modest by definition and not Imperial as the UK monarchy is. A Welsh monarchy would cost no more then would a presidential head of state (a president who would by necessity only represent those that voted him in, thus injecting petty party politics to the office of the head of state).
Lastly, an independent Welsh government would be able to negotiate for better investment packages in the corporate world, and allow Wales to find its neitch. This is how Denmark has maintained a very high standard of living yet having few natural resources.
And Wales does have allotted to recommend it. The energy produced in Wales could be sold on the international energy market for a profit. Energy could come from a Varity of sources, from wind to water to ... possibly... coal and neuclar. Energy produced in Wales could reduce the energy costs for domestic Welsh consumers... both in the public and private sector. This could be seen as a rebate of sorts to the average Welsh household.
Foreign companies wishing to sell goods in Europe would be attracted to the low cost of energy in Wales as well as other incentive packages.
In the end... only an independent Wales could mitigate the recession in Wales. The UK of England parliament, dominated as it is by English MPs, will look after their own interests first and foremost.
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Thank you Brynt and happy to be "barking",as compared to the delusional NATS and fellow travellers one meets on this road. Your analysis is partially correct in that the cuts (and proper one's)not the restriction of growth in public expenditure will come after the next election and no doubt the Conservative government who will carry it out will get the usual kicking from you and others. You will remember that before New Labour got elected there was a budget surplus because of control of public expenditure,rather than the fantastic growth of waste over past 8/9 years which we in Wales have had in spades. Here's £100 Million savings by scrapping public subsidy for S4 C and let welsh speakers pay for it like I do by paying for SKY because theres very good tennis coverage. Minority interests should be paid for by those interested rather than by general subsidies. I must be barking as the "howls" from the welsh speakers on the "gravy train" can be heard from my kennel. The same applies to BBC Wales and its "political" team which now numbers the same as the cast of Cleopatra made in 1963. Sorry Betsan.
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Betsan Powys | 21:23 UK time, Thursday, 30 April 2009
The Deputy First Minister doesn't go in for hyperbole -
Great stuff !!! I do like a good laugh on a Satuaday morning.
On the subject of the shambles that was "free prescriptions". The figures clearly showed that only a small minority of people actually paid for their prescriptions, by definition the wealthiest amongst us.
Those who did pay could easily have bought a "season ticket" which meant that however many prescriptions you required in a year (yes it really was an unlimited number) you only paid around £60 a year (which could be paid quarterly)
This facility was deliberately played down by the appalling assembly, in order to exaggerate the effect of the so-called "free" prescriptions.
Far from us being badly governed by a "hyperbole free" bunch, it must have dawned on many of us in Wales that the troughers down the bay have in fact been busy having "hyperbole effectiveness lessons" at the taxpayer's expense.
On the topic of cutting back assembly expenditure, when will the disgustingly wasteful and divisive "Welsh language board" be scrapped ? This has become little short of a publicity department for Plaid Cymru financed from the public purse.
The whole devoltion circus loses credibility as each day passes. Before long the clamour for a referendum on it's continued existence will become irresistible.
This time the people of Wales, (rather like The Who)..."Won't get fooled again"
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Shash and burn cuts will certainly send the enthused voters racing to the polls to put a BIG HAPPY CLAPPY "YES" against the,"More Powers for the Assembly/MORE AM BIG FAT SALARIES, tick box. "Cos we are worth it ~ that's why AMs shop in Cowbridge".
Hey Betsan, I see that the "Etonians" are promising to reveal the salaries of top BBC staff! Should cause a few panic waves in LLandaff Towers. Wait 'til they find out you've been putting your corned beef and WELSH mustard sarnis on "expenses"!
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Lyn at 21;
Think you need to get your ducks in a row.
Every Labour Government since Macdonald's in 1924 has crippled the UK, in every case the Conservatives have had to pick up the pieces and rebuild.
Each time the problems are more severe - each time the remedy means pain for the electorate.
Of course the Tories get blamed while the Socialist's, who caused the problem, make the Tories out to be the villains.
It is not only the economy that gets ruined - our pension's for instance.
The best and most secure in the World.
Brown's first move as Chancellor was a 5 Billion per year raid.
Then Regulation, Crippled most pension funds, some failed, some were so much in dept that they bankrupted the parent Co.
There is little or no take up for government bonds in the market. After all Brown is trying to borrow as much this year as all our previous Governments for the last 300 years put together - and that's fact not spin.
The pension pots look like a useful income source.
So the government is insisting that pension schemes are match funded with government bonds - that pay out only 2 or 3%.
What value will your pension be when you retire.
It isn't just pensions - where ever you look into government dealings you find similar horror stories.
It isn't just Westminster - have a look at the nonsense going on in Cardiff.
The bloated Civil Service and useless instructions coming out of the Bay - all bilingual, all costing taxpayers, either through council tax or reduction in services like education or health.
None add to the quality of life for us in Wales, all incur restrictions and pure botheration.
For businesses its time to give up or get out.
These incompetent AM's and various self important ministers who are wrecking our way of life, haven't go a clue how to reduce costs and make systems work better and more efficiently.
The only answer is to cut services and increase civil servants and bureaucracy, more powers more legislation.
Well I can assure you its going to have to hurt here in Wales, and most of the reason is down to incompetence, and the idea that there was a bottomless pit of money.
You obviously don't know where our AM's are frittering away our money.
Its almost impossible to get a reasonable breakdown from the Assembly.
The monstrosity in the Bay is costing us an arm and a leg, its over manned over paid. Worst of all its ruining us.
It is obvious that the Nat's and Language Activists are living in cloud cuckoo land.
No cuts on the language or ??culture spending so things are OK.
Lets spend more on the WLB and various cultural projects.
Cut Stroke services, care for the elderly disabled etc., oh yes and education, well needs must - times are hard.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
So scrap every penny of expenditure on the arts, ban bilingual documents and all will be well? I don't think so. As I have said the arts bring in more revenue than is paid out to them, as well as contributing to the emotional and cultural enrichment and wellbeing of the people. In addition they collectively are a huge asset to Wales, bringing in millions from revenue from tourism. Kick that away and you seriously damage one of our biggest earners. Bilingualism costs practically nothing in reality. Address the real wastes of public money, Trident, ID cards and obscene expenditure on illegal foreign wars. Then come back to us.
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Lyn at 32;
Bilingualism costs practically nothing in reality.
You don't know that - in fact you have no idea of the full cost, and I don't think anyone does.
The Assembly gives 15million for running part of the WLB - there is no overall figure but minimum estimates are that the full amount is more than double that.
The Defence ministry were asked for a figure for their spending on bilingualism - no answer too complex to calculate.
Our small Community Council serving 800 electors has to raise an extra £2500 on its precept to cover the cost of a Welsh language scheme. - Whats the total cost to all welsh Councils, County, Town & Community. Do you know?.
How much does it cost to translate and duplicate every piece of paper issued to the public.
How much is actually read or needed.
All the bilingual road signs - many erected against local opinion.
Many instead of aiding are actually dangerous because they are confusing and people can't understand the message.
What is the cost of all these.
Bilingual signs in public buildings!
Every council and public body employing people just to sort out bilingual issues.
What about the cost to the NHS, millions.
I saw an estimate for a bilingual leaflet for a health charity, the cost was 3 times the English only version, and because of the technical language it had to go to a university for translation.
What use is that to the average Welsh speaker, - they won't be able to read it and have to depend on the English version.
Now go to the WLB website have a look at what they have their finger in how much power they have. What they are insisting has to be done.
I don't need to go on you get the picture.
The actual total spending in Wales on this is staggering.
Estimates range from £750 million to £2 billion per annum.
You are talking utter rubbish, come down out of the clouds, you are not stupid - start to think, look, and analyse whats really going on.
you say ban bilingual documentsno need, bilingual documents will still be produced where needed, no one is saying ban the language, the issue is that the present legislative approach has produced a monster, even those involved have no idea of the cost impact.
This is social engineering gone mad and certainly not working.
Worse it is divisive and hampering what needs to be achieved.
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Mapexx I thought this may interest you - it staggered me.
Article by Nick Cohen in the Standpoint magazine.
Fear and Filth at Browns Number 10
http://www.standpointmag.co.uk/fear-and-filth-at-browns-number-10-may-09-features-nick-cohen-gordon-brown-martin-bright-damian-mcbride-guido-fawkes-ed-balls-ch
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http://www.standpointmag.co.uk/fear-and-filth-at-browns-number-10-may-09-features-nick-cohen-gordon-brown-martin-bright-damian-mcbride-guido-fawkes-ed-balls-ch
Try this. I think the moderators 'break' links.
Especially if it is something slightly 'controversial'.
So if this link breaks as well, search for it for yourself.
It is very enlightening.
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Yep - mine worked at first now doesn't.
Copy and paste into browser.:-)
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West Wales - I agree with you - I'd have road signs in Welsh only to save the money.
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#37.
The tyranny of the minority, nothing new in Wales then.
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I have no idea why your community council is reserving so much money (£3.125 a head a year) on Welsh, but I suggest you look at your procedure. There is a scheme in Pembrokeshire where community councils can get translation for free below a certain number of words. If there is a demand for your minutes in Welsh then you should supply it, if you are having to spend money that suggests that either your council is not taking advantage of the help on offer or that there is some demand for Welsh language communication.
Road signs have been researched extensively, making them bilingual does not have any effect on safety. It costs no more for bilingual signage than it does for monolingual signage. Where do you get your estimates on costs from? sounds like they are plucked out of the air by anti welsh language fanatics. Given the size of the Welsh budget 750 million is absurd.
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Message 39.....
Quote from Lyn...
......"It costs no more for bilingual signage than it does for monolingual signage. Where do you get your estimates on costs from? sounds like they are plucked out of the air by anti welsh language fanatics."......
I don't know where you get YOUR info from either, Lyn
Some time ago a similar discussion took place, on another board, I refused to accept there was no extra costs involved, so checked with the makers of a certain sign on the side of the M4, in Gwent.
The sign in question, was, in English and Cymraeg, rather a large one, I found one across the bridge that was approximately the same size, comparatively speaking, allowing for there being only one language involved, but with similar wordage, in English only..
The difference in cost between the two was, the one in England was one third of the cost of the dual language one in Wales..
The reasons given were because the extra size of the sign made it at least double the cost to make, plus the materials used had to be more robust to counter the extra wind loading, and the labour cost element was substantially higher in Wales, due to the sign needing more labour input,and more anchoring materials, all on top of the manufacture material differences, than the one in England.
Now to me, that is a rather certain factor in anyone stating that signs in dual language text, being correct in saying, it IS far more costly.
Now please, if you are not convinced, follow my path and research it for yourself, not just make blase comments that show a serious lack of understanding in the costings of the signs that are being stuck up all over Wales.
As a builder of fifty five years experience, I never look at anything, without attempting to mentally estimate the base costs of whatever I am debating.
What experience have you got to make such a bald and blase statement, as appears in the quote from your last message?
Don't get me wrong, I am arguing purely from the angle of your comments that there are no extra costs involved, I am quite happy to see signage in both langauges, after all we do live in a dual, or bilingual, region, even if only a small proportion, relatively speaking, use the minor language.
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A cautionary tale...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/may/03/kevin-mckenna-scottish-politics
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bilingual signage .....
the vast majority of signs have no writing, this particular group of signs are outwith any debate.
There exists another group of signs that are informative, they give instructions, temporary signs such as those used at roadworks, these bilingual signs cost 140 percent more than English only signs.
The permanent literary small road signs such as no parking, cost 180 percent more when bilingual than the English only signs, this because fixings, including foundations in certain cases, have to be included.
Large Multi-language road signs, such as the example given by mapexx, have a cost that in certain circumstances exceed the 200 percent increase.
Because there are no monoglot Welsh speakers in the UK, the temporary and small permanent signs is a sop to the Nation builders, at no considerable cost the majority.
The large multi-language road signs are unnecessary as a place should only have one name variant, it matters not whether it is in English or Welsh, the name should not be translated, if there is a dispute the guardians of the name would be the inhabitants, their choice, no-matter how well or badly it may be constructed.
The question of distance on road signs is irrelevant as long as the abbreviation is used, it is the same for Miles and Kilometres whether in English or Welsh.
When the Nation builders use expressions such as "It costs no more for bilingual signage than it does for monolingual signage." it is just not true. When you consider the question of place names and distance as outlined above it becomes apparent that individuals have been wasting our money, the Nation builders.
An example of language lunacy that I consider the pinacle of stupidity is the creation of names to replace existing, for example "Oxford" as "Rhydychen", the lunacy of the people involved in this criminal waste of time and money is beyond comprehension.
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I would suggest that the name Rhydychen is probably as old as Oxford.
Bilingual roadsigns are a small item, the cost if extra is negligible compared to the rest of the budget. It is right that both languages be used as we are a biligual nation, those arguing that English only should be used are essentially saying Welsh has no place in the public arena and should only be used at home. Any cost is negligible compared with the whole budget and is justified. I would agree signs should be as simple as possible and avoid text where ever possible. Also we need to look at how many signs we are putting up, many being superfluous.
We are a bilingual nation, like Belgium or Sweden or Ireland. Its time we moved from these sterile debates, accepted that the rights of all should be protected and celebrate the linguistic diversity that we have.
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message 42.....
No Stoney, not beyond MY comprehension, your line, commencing 'lunacy... and ending in.... comprehension' I find a contradiction in terms, my reason being, they know only too well what they are about.
In a court of law, they would be found guilty on the grounds their defence plea of 'temporary insanity', merely a legal ploy to escape justice.
The activities my be sheer lunacy agreed, but the people involved are far from mad.
Unless of course, you deem their madcap chase for an indepenent Wales a form of mental displacement.
In which case, we are of one mind.
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message 43....
What you seem unable to understand yourself is the vary plain and simple fact that all these nations you mention, almost invariably concentrate their bilingual signs to the areas within their states, where the sub language is more prominent.
But even more important, is the fact that many other nations, without English being too far up on their scale of priority's, also display English on their signage.
I presume this, because they are attempting to, or have already accepted, that English should be their avowed second language.
The other point of understanding you fail to take on board, is that all these little sums which you deem to be insignificant, compared to the overall budget, taken together, amount to far more than a matter of insignificance.
Each and every bit of paper printed in dual language, or one, two or more sheets, add considerably to the reduction in available funding for vital services.
A print run of several millions, such as in electricity, gas, telephone
bills, could easily cost enough to fund hospital operations for quite a few on a waiting list.
Or be utilised for supplies, and replenishment for school books, etc, yes, even in Cymraeg, I won't deny you that possibility.
The cost of, at least doubling, for a road signs on major routes, throughout Wales, must amount to some millions in total, and such a waste which can easily be described as unnecessary when taking into account the whole population CAN use English, (with a marginal few not included, such as immigrants, or those with retardation problems of course).
If just one million quid is actually, and accountably involved, just think what that one million could do, if only in your own area.
Add that one million to all the other one millions, arrive at 22 millions by accumulation, and there you have one million for each of the local councils to play with. Instead of which all those petty amounts, relatively speaking, are being 'wasted' on grandiose, and probably un-essential matters, that, if not taken up, would have little impact on Wales as a whole.
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mapexx
I defer to your superior eloquence .....
Bravo my Socialist friend.
Lyn_Thomas wrote .....
"I would suggest that the name Rhydychen is probably as old as Oxford".
..... the logic is in error, at the beginning of the last millennium Oxford was "Oxeneford", just as "Bernecestre" became "Bicester" over a period of a thousand years.
To translate a place name demonstrates an arrogance, an arrogance that permeates the Welsh Language Board Standardisation of Place-names Team, which is in turn advised by Professor Hywel Wyn Owen from the Place-names Research Centre.
At what cost? What benefit?
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message 43, a additional bit....
In a few weeks I shall be ambling about a part of southern France, Provence to be exact, where an ancient language is used on road signage.
This is generally to be found around the Camargue, a Coastal region that stands as a proud and antique area in that region of France.
I am aware, according to friends who live there, that the language IS still used by some of the locals, but that French is the Lingua Franca (pun?)or all.
Now, the Camargue is equally as old as Wales in it's culture, probably older in fact. but the Camarguios seem to have no demands on their government for regulated and enforced language for themselves. The opposite seem to be the case, as all those I have spoken to, are very staunch in their support for the main tongue...French.
Whilst maintaining, at limited public support, the old tongue.
I wonder what it is that makes this rather small minority in Wales think is is imperative that Cymraeg be forced onto all, like it or not.
Not only that, but to enforce it at such a massive public expense that is not only unjustified, but also very, very, unsustainable.
Can I quote Humpty Dumpty?... you know how he fetched up.
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mapexx - stonemason
I can't help feeling that valid arguments about business costs and public spending are being lost by the 'red herring' of road signs. One suspects you think that 'if only wales were more like england, then more money would be available for front-line services'. But the fact is that most large English cities have councils which have to produce literature in up to 20 languages to cater for their various residents. Please let us not get into a long debate about the pros and cons of that, but just accept that 'what you lose on the swings, you gain at the roundabouts'.
Since my first language is Welsh, I think we may have to agree to differ on this. But I can see the merit in only having 'one name' on some road signs. I'm not in favour of a 'contrived' name for Cross Hands, when it has always been historically known as that. And the use of 'Ceredigion' for Cardiganshire is just a sensible way of having only one name on the website, just as 'J Sainsbury & Co.' became 'Sainsburys' above the door [without an apostrophe, I think] to align with their website address.
Maybe we could dispense with both 'Lampeter' AND 'Llanbedr-pont-steffan' and just call it 'Llambed', as that is now used on many websites ?
But be honest, chaps, the only way of doing this would be if the EU were to decide that in future, places would be known globally by their local name. Just as Bombay is now Mumbai, but Kolkata is known globally as 'Calcutta', then Rome would be Roma, Naples would become Napoli, and Parma, well Parma, whether one is English, Spanish, Italian or Icelandic.
I guess we can all look forward to the EU managing to agree on such a proposal sometime after the 'Fontana di Trevi' has been flattened to make room for a new multi-storey car park...
Guys, there is money to be saved in Wales, but thinking you can do it by tinkering with road signs does, I'm afraid, display the kind of wishful thinking shown by Alistair Darling hoping to full the multi-zillion quid hole in the public finances by 'efficiency savings' and a 50p tax rate..
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lordBeddGelert, I don't think the cost of signs is the primary issue, although it must be an issue of good financial management, particularly during lean years, the primary issue is that of Nation building without a democratic mandate.
We live as part of the United Kingdom, share its good and bad times equally with the whole population, yet in this portion of the land there are those that would have more. I chose my words with care because the only real issue is that of power, political power, and in the quest for power a small number of people have decided that the mechanism to achieve their requisite level of power is to create a smaller electoral pond that is independent of the whole.
Language can be a very effective tool in the creation of barriers, and those that wish for power have created a contrived yet visible difference to the United Kingdom, this is signage. A place does not have two names, it is singular in nature, Cardiff or Caerdydd, the singularity is only changed when referring to other countries, the exonym, where we write Germany for Deutschland, but even the exonym has been challenged and we no longer write Ivory Coast, at the insistence of its government we use the French "Côte d'Ivoire". There is no need for the exonym except where the character sets used by other countries make it impossible to read, Cyrillic for example.
Returning to the United Kingdom, what benefit is achieved by the application of a translated name to Oxford, the Welsh Rhydychen, as I previously wrote Oxford has been "Oxeneford" for a thousand years, the Saxons who were the creators of this place called it "OxenaRfoda". Should Oxford petition the Welsh Assembly to bring its errant quango into line, insist on the use of its correct form, as did the government of "Côte d'Ivoire".
Returning to Wales, I contend a place only has one name, a name that has possibly mutated over time into something less than a pure form of Bangor University Welsh; it might not have been mutation it could have been replacement by an Anglicised name because of internal migration, whatever name the inhabitants of a place wish to use is the correct name. There is only a single beneficiary of the process of name creation, not the people but those that would make us different in our country.
I contend that the work of the Welsh Language Boards "Standardisation of Place-names Team", is political by nature whose objective is the creation of the visible difference in the community and to those travelling into geographical Wales to support Nation Building .....
..... by those who wish for the smaller political pond.
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What is this obsession with nation building, Wales is a nation. That we have national institutions can't be blamed on the current Welsh Government. As for assorted things with the word national in the title, would you object to them less if they didn't have national in the title? I imagine you supported Redwood rebranding the Welsh Office with Union Flags replacing the Welsh Dragon etc...
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Perhaps we should try to stick to the subject of each of these discussions and not let us get bogged down in the same arguments about the language? I will if you will?
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message 48....
Far be it from me LBG to appear to criticise the use of Cymraeg when appropriate, as I have stated many times, I am not anti he language, or the people who have a use for it.
However, I am against the artifice being employed in sticking it where it has no valid cause to be used.
Not that I am comparing them, but I put this inappropriate and burdensome use of the language in the same boat as foul language as found on the walls of public conveniences.
I am not against the use of swearing, by the same token as I am not against the use of Cymraeg, but to legislate for Cymraeg to be funded to have it placed in locations where it has no call for, is almost tantamount to legislating for foul language and graphical images to be placed, at public expense on ALL public toilets across the region.
No one, certainly not I, nor I am sure, most who contribute to these blogs,wish to have the language denigrated and downgraded, but we are not the ones who are driving the train towards the buffers at high speed, that is in the hands, at present, of the Assembly/WAG through it's, seemingly, unregulated agency the WLB.
To have all appreciate the language, one would be far more circumspect in the way it is presented to the public at large, and as far as I,and others are concerned, placing it in a situation of 'Prominence' is one thing, but into a place of 'Dominance' something altogether different, and perceived as working to an agenda to the detriment of none tenth of the population that do not use it, or have no use for it.
As in the case of the language of the Camargue, if the language of the Cymro has to be publicly funded, well and good but only enough to ensure it's basic level of survival, even to the extent of it gaining back some degree of utility., but to expect ALL to be happy elated and glad to cough up the cash for it to be thrust, forced even, into our daily lives, out of our P.A.Y,E, VAT, and council taxation, is beyond the pale.
That is not what we enfranchised the Assembly to do, nor was it made explicit that the LWB would be anything but an arbiter and record archiving sort of quango, not a mentor for the promotion and promulgation through legislation, of the language, to the potential detriment of our communal stability, the functioning of our education system,and the loading of Welsh commerce with a fiscal, and unnecessary work load burden.
All, as Stony has stated, for the minority to take Wales into the scenario of donning the mantle of a builded 'nation', some time in the future.
I can readily see your points, but we are entitled to make our own feelings known on the matter, and as we see it, the language IS being used for the purpose of 'persuasion', not as a simple means of communication, which, if it was not there, we we would not be having ANY of these discussions, sidetracking or otherwise.
As I have said previously, the whole matter hangs on the very existence of the language, without it there would be nothing to hang the hat of nationalist ambition on.
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message 50....
The obsession is with those who would turn Wales into Cymru, raise Cymraeg above English, and extricate, at enormous cost, and in a convulsive rupturing, the region away from it's natural geopolitical base.
A single past, and virtually hardly noticeable Welsh secretary, an aberration named Redwood, is hardly a representative of all that exists between our two regions, so please cease making big issue of it.
It would be more of a disaster if Ryan Giggs opted to play for England, a matter of some concern to the sporting fraternity in Wales, more so than who sits over-lording our political menage in Cardiff Bay, which is of little import to most of the population, they have far more to concern them,.... making ends meet, where to go for their summer vacations, how will Wales do in the six 'nations', when will the roads be repaired, are the Assembly so stupid as to place another charge of dustbin emptying?,.....than to worry if the next WAG meeting will head us into a rosy new world, or become extinct.
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Stonemason,
Why do you hate the Welsh language so much?
Also, I think you'll find that Rhydychen has been around for centuries. Welsh students were to be found at Jesus College from its beginnings in the C16. You're talking nonsense - again. I doubt very much that the Welsh Language Board was around in 1571!
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Oxford .....
settled originally by the Saxons circa 800-1000AD, first written reference Anglo-Saxon Chronicle 912AD, named OxenaRfoda, "Ford of the Ox"
Written as Oxeneford in the Book of Winchester 1086.
Oxford is Oxford, not Rhydychen.
Rhydychen is used as an exonym when it is neither needed nor wanted, the Latin alphabet is used by both languages when referring to the city of Oxford or indeed any other place in the United Kingdom, or beyond for that matter.
I refer you to #49 paragraph 3, this is the real issue, the issue you conveniently bypass.....
as for hating anything .....
..... the closest I come to hatred is indifference, though the exception is "I do despise those that would destroy the country I share with so many ten's of millions".
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Stonemason,
I repeat, Rhydychen has existed for centuries. And that's it. WHY does that bother you so much? Do you never say Rome, Cologne, Moscow ...?
You said:
"Rhydychen is used as an exonym when it is neither needed nor wanted"
- I trust you're speaking only for yourself there. Otherwise it shows terrific arrogance!
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Well, its Roma and Köln, both from my days in green, Moscow is different as the city authorities use the Latin alphabetic alternative to the Cyrillic try http://www.mos.ru/ so to use Moscow is acceptable.
Oxford has existed for centuries, it exists in the United Kingdom, our country, since when do the rational create a translation of a place name in their own country. I think the government of "Cote d'Ivoire" have the rights of it, the exonym should only be used where there is a real need as with the Cyrillic alphabet, even then it would be good manners to ask the country in question for the approval of such exonym.
I once again refer you to #49 paragraph 3, this is the real issue, the issue you conveniently bypass......
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As someone who has lived in Wales all my life, I am saddened, nay angered by the way that a strident, mouthy minority can bring about changes in the names of the towns and cities I have visited and lived in for all these years.
This absurd (and costly) "Welshification" of placenames is just one more artful and contrived method of dividing (and apparently ruling)an easy-going and placid population.
Why is the same 'renaming'not being applied to Welsh language placenames? Take for instance PONTYPRIDD, why is there not an English version of that name also on the signposts? After all, we have to put up with the unbelievably stupid BARRY-BARRI...CAERPHILLY-CAERPHILLI nonsense, using pseudo-Welsh names made up recently by a "Welsh language Board" committee.
Indeed, as there is a Welsh Langauge Board with the sole intention of promoting the failing Welsh language, why not an English Language Board doing the same for the overwhelmingly more used and popular English language?
We must never forget that every single member of the Welsh assembly, by definition, wants MORE Welsh language (and less English presumably) forced upon us. The ONLY way to stop this divisive madness is to scrap devolution altogether. The assembly realise this all too well, and will continue to refuse the Welsh people a referendum as they know damn well that in spite of dubious telephone polls,nothing but the ballot box will sort everything out.
The whole sordid devolution exercise stinks to high heaven.
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We can always depend on Noa to talk nonsense.
But Rhydychen is in another country, Stonemason - England!! Or is England not a country any more?
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#58 Noah
Here we have Noah indignantly pontificating from his Ark of Ignorance yet again.
Caerphili/Caerphilly
"Caerphilly's story begins nearly two thousand years ago, soon after the Romans marched into Wales and built an auxiliary fort at Caerphilly in A.D.75.
During the following centuries it is said that the Christian missionary Saint Cenydd established a monastic site at Caerphilly. On leaving he was reputed to have entrusted it to his son Ffili. It is from the combination of this story and the Town's Roman origins that Caerphilly takes its name - the fort (caer) of Ffili."
http://www.caerphilly.gov.uk/bigcheese/english/history.htm
We've had the discussion on the name of Barri/Barry before.. derived from the Norman, 'de Barri' if my memory serves me correctly.
I think an apology to the Welsh Language Board is in order.
As for scrapping devolution, Noah, let's instead scrap that hugely expensive monstrosity at Westminster which is costing us 455 millions a year. How about the Labour Baroness Uddin allegedly claiming 100k for an empty flat? Not to mention that she's unelected and nominated by the likes of Blair and Brown to make laws for the rest of her life for you and me. How about Jacqui Smith, Tom McNulty, Alastair Darling, and a list as long as your arm of other claimants who could be said to be milking the system for all its worth? The UK has the only unelected legislative chamber in any country claiming to be a democracy. Ninety-three of its members inherited their right to legislate on our behalf.
Let's hear you complain about the lack of democracy, secrecy and waste, in the British State. Don't forget that poor people in Wales will be paying for the billions made by the banks and for City bonuses, through higher taxes, swingeing public service cuts, and unemployment for at least a decade. Its all due to Blair and Brown's pyramid of false prosperity founded on a mountain of unregulated debt.
The need for self-determination for Wales takes on more urgency with each passing day, as the UK's government, political system and economy gets ever more desperate.
So Noah, carry on whingeing as much as you like, its a sign that you realise you're losing the argument.
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#59
Silly me, can't even spell it correctly myself now, 'Caerffili' :)
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The country in question is The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
The geographical area you call England in your post has a city named Oxford not Rhydychen.
There is no rational creating a translation of any place name in our country [UK], Caerphilly or Caerffili, Cardiff or Caerdydd, only one place name is needed, but which? The answer rests with the electorate, ask them at the next census, find out what they would like.
..... the UK's government, political system and economy gets ever more desperate.
brynt41, you must be patient, Cameron's Conservatives will be here soon enough to stir the devolution pot.
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61. At 3:45pm on 04 May 2009, brynt41 wrote:
#59
Silly me, can't even spell it correctly myself now, 'Caerffili' :)
Oh dear dear dear Brynt41. WHAT A MISTAKE TO MAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And you a Welsh language supporter as well!!!!!!
Well if YOU can't spell the idiotic
Welsh translation correctly how the hell do you expect us English-only speakers to manage?
Every now and again you language boyos drop almighty clangers.....Brilliant stuff!!!!!!!!
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Re 63
I can only think that Noa's been on the sherry. The usual stupidity, and that strangely naive belief he has that he is in any way funny.
Stonemason's impassioned plea for uniformity only shows just how right wing he has become I suppose. I'll say this for the third time! Rhydychen has been around as a name for centuries, and I would have thought you would have appoved, seeing that it wasn't thought up by a committee! Just because you dislike it, doesn't mean it's going away any time soon.
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Hat Tip Scottish Unionist
George Orwell, wrote in his 1945 essay Notes on Nationalism:
"Welsh, Irish and Scottish nationalism have points of difference but are alike in their anti-English orientation. Members of all three movements have opposed the war while continuing to describe themselves as pro-Russian, and the lunatic fringe has even contrived to be simultaneously pro-[left] and pro-[right]. Celtic nationalism is not the same thing as Anglophobia. Its motive force is a belief in the past and future greatness of the Celtic peoples, and it has a strong tinge of racialism. The Celt is supposed to be spiritually superior to the Saxon simpler, more creative, less vulgar, less snobbish, etc. but the usual power hunger is there under the surface."
I modified pro-[left] and pro-[right] so as not to offend the sensibilities some Plaid commentators.
Nothing has changed in 65 years ......
It seems Mapexx, Noah_sembly, West-Wales etc. have been right all along .....
FiDafydd, I believe it pathetic to translate a place name, no matter what the language, except for specific circumstances, the Cyrillic alphabet for example, but you would know this as you have read through the comments. You comment is accepted for what it is, an insult, expected when the argument has been lost by the separatists.
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#63
It was a typo, plain and simple, didn't see it until it was posted, so don't get your knickers in a twist.
We don't hear you anwering the really serious criticisms of the blessed Union of which you are so enamoured. Talk about a stinking mess.
#65
Orwell (Eric Arthur Blair) was very left-wing in his opinions. He lived in an age when international socialism was a commonly held political belief. He had many friends in the Independent Labour Party. His views were a counter to the fascism and national socialism prevalent during the 1930s. Orwell fought in the Spanish Civil War on the Republican side, inintially intending to join the International Brigade - he actually joined the Workers' Party of Marxist Unification (POUM) which was viewed as a Trotskyist organisation. Writing in 1945 he wasn't aware of the excesses of Stalin at that time.
His views on nationalism must be read in that context. Although born India, he was brought up and educated in England, including Eton. I can understand his viewing Irish nationalism as anglo-phobic, simply on the grounds of the treatment Ireland had undergone under English rule for generations. However, Plaid Cymru was a relatively new and very small political party, even in 1945, and the SNP wasn't even formed until 1934. Orwell can't have known much about them, and in any case he would have been deeply prejudiced because of his own political opinions. Although colonial in background, he was essentially of English descent.
So, to quote from Orwell, without providing the context, is quite unfair. Quotations are dangerous things used indiscriminately. One could say.. 'He would say that, wouldn't he?'
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No.65 The Stonemason
"I believe it pathetic to translate a place name, no matter what the language"
Thank you for the clarification. I trust, therefore, that you would always use original place names such as Dinbych and Llanbedr Pont Steffan in conversation, rather than their "pathetic" English translations, yes?
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Re 65
Why on earth are you quoting George Orwell at us? He is relevant because ..."
I don't think it is a matter of opinion any longer that you are right wing. And I'm just stating the obvious - that what you want is uniformity, and the type of uniformity that you personally understand.
I'm just finding it difficult to understand why you should be so upset that the Welsh, a few centuries ago, gave Oxford a Welsh name (and a very nice sounding name too)for their own use. And that you're so upset by it - pathetic I think you called it - that it's almost a grown up (sic) version of throwing your toys out of the pram ...
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KelvinD, FiDafydd,
Yes, a place should have just one name, historically the people of a location would and should be the custodians of their place name.
I'm not sure why either of you used the word pathetic, except as an insult.
The essay is from 1945, and supports many views held, it is interesting that views have remained fairly constant. You will be saying next that "anti-English orientation" is not now the case, even though such expressions are frequently expressed here, the grass root followers are forever shouting their "belief in the past and future greatness of the Celtic peoples".
The use of the passage from Orwell. In the context used it is quite fair, and the paragraph was used with discrimination in support of the Union.
Nothing has changed during 65 years.
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George Orwell may (or may not) have had a point 65 years ago. But times change and his views are irrelevant to todays debates.
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message 70.....
Not that this is actually a definitive reply to your message, more a comment regarding the almost constant referral by the more extremist nationalists, who generally hold up 'nationalist' regimes in other so called Celtic regions.
It seems that shining example, the Basques, have thrown out their 'radical' government, as it appears the electorate in their REGION have had it up to their back teeth with all the rhetoric and radicalism being perpetrated in their name.
The new government there is now a socialist one.
This is the effect I have been forecasting for some time, which I have stated will sooner or later come to pass here, in our region of the UK, as frustration and antipathy takes hold of the Welsh majority.
We too will become annoyed, as I already am, by the demand being made in our name for actions and platforms we neither need or want.
Once the true message from the nationalists begins to filter through to the majority, which at present seems to be meeting a blockage in reporting and publicity, then we shall be following the Basques down a new route, one more suited to reality, than the fantasy currently on certain agendas.
The sooner the better. maybe at the next election in fact.
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No.69 Stonemason
"I'm not sure why either of you used the word pathetic, except as an insult."
It's perfectly clear to everyone apart from yourself, evidently. To jog your memory...
"I believe it pathetic to translate a place name, no matter what the language" - Stonemason
As you've avoided the question, I'll ask again: do you always use original place names such as Dinbych and Llanbedr Pont Steffan in conversation, rather than their "pathetic" (as you put it) English translations?
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Mess 69: Indeed nothing has changed in the last 65 years - Wales still bottom of the European heap, still a poor region depite all the help and support and guidance of Westminster. Why? Is it that the Welsh are not as intelligent as the English or Scots or French or Italians? Maybe Orwell should have investigated why the nationalist parties in the middle of the 20thC were Anglophobic. Maybe you should investigate why you are so anti-Welsh and Wales?
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"ASSEMBLY MEMBERS... telling us what, in their view, are the National Assemblys most notable achievements in its first 10 years. FREE BUS TRAVEL for pensioners and the disabled narrowly defeated the idea that Wales was a more confident nation as the most popular response." ~ W. Mail today. SAYS IT ALL REALLY!
!0 years on, what's REALLY changed? The Valleys are now joyfully "singing" post OB1? Neil Kinnock is finally in a NON-subsidised, NON-sinecure, a first for him and us? Go Neil.
HELL NO, ITS...
That Pensioners can go to Penarth for Nout! REJOICE! DEVO WORKS.
"I have a dream etc."
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Mess 74, Blue
Yes a shambles isn't it - you forgot to mention that the Assembly also invaded two countries illegally costing many lives; was guilty for irresponsible lending across the world which led to this present financial problem; was responsible also for the majority of global warming issues in the world; and my loss of hair.
They have had ten whole years and all they can manage is a poor shadow of the glorious and rich economy that was Wales throughout the 20thC - oh for Maggie to come back, Wales to be a region of the UK again and not represented on any world stage on its own (Rugby, football, etc...)
Ah! ...happy days eh?
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message 75....
I can't be sure if you are taking things seriously or not, but what I can sense is you are dissatisfied with your lot, under this present regional governance.
I can recall the times well before any talk of devolution, and self determination came to be prominent in any of the nations fora, then all of a sudden, almost overnight we get this ridiculous situation, where we have divisiveness and over stressing of such matters as the language, self governance, regionalisation, and so on.
Therein lies the problems we face. If we were to eradicate all this tripe politics, and return to the pre war status Wales was in, there would be none of all this friction.
We have the present construction, for the simple reason that a bunch of simpletons say we are a 'nation' (in the political sense), and we should act as one, when in fact we have nothing to substantiate such a claim, or to act upon.
I will not go over reasons for our present predicament, other than to say, it cannot be coincidental that Wales has hit the buffers, economically speaking, only since Wales was given a regional budget to play with.
The agonisingly pity of it being, that is exactly what has occurred, the so called government of this devolved Wales has done nothing but 'play' with what it has been handed.
All ambitions need a high degree of practicality, and rationale, underpinning them; it is this is that is so sadly lacking in all of this talk.
High blown ambition, sans structure.
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Mess 76: Pre-war status!! - I presume this is the second world war you are referring to is it? How bizarre that you of all people who have condemned posters who refer back to the past for their points now saying that everything was great in the 30's in Wales. Wow, you deserve the biscuit this time
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Re 76
mapexx said:
"I can't be sure if you are taking things seriously or not, but what I can sense is you are dissatisfied with your lot, under this present regional governance."
I think everybody else realized immediately that he was employing irony.
And it is even more self-evident that what you mention in your second sentence is not the case! Except of course in wanting more powers and more autonomy - a very good idea!!
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message 77...
You take a stab in the dark chum, my reference was to the fact we had NO overbearing S of S, no Welsh Ofice, certainly no Assembly, etc.
I realise that it is quite difficult for some to understand, but it is not forever necessary to fill out a comment, when any normal person should be able to read the implications therein.
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"It seems that shining example, the Basques, have thrown out their 'radical' government, as it appears the electorate in their REGION have had it up to their back teeth with all the rhetoric and radicalism being perpetrated in their name."
You need to do detail Map - 100,000 votes were disqualified as being cast for Basque nationalist parties banned by the Spanish state. The PNV vote remained remarkably stable.
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So no representation as anything but a region of England - pretty plain and simple is it not?
"What do we want?"....
"Pre-war (WWII) Status for Wales!"
"When do we want it....?"
is not a great rallying call on the stump I'm afraid chummy, you try it and see.
And your answer to all problems facing Wales is to ignore the fact that there is such a place at all. Brilliant!
Just to get this plain and out in the open MAppex - you want ALL representations of Wales as a separate entity (everything political of course) but also no BBC Wales for example and crucially - no international football or rugby representation, except as part of England or Britain? Is that truly what you say - and does this represent True Wales by the way?
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So mapexx would take us back to the 30s, when unemployment (1937) in London, the south east and the midlands was between 6-7%, whereas in Wales it was between 22-23%.
We have had twelve years of New Labour government, in reality, its been a continuation of eighteen years of Tory rule. During that time the gap between the richest and poorest in the UK has continue to widen. Wales lies at the poorest end of the spectrum where there are very few affluent people.
There has been virtually no significant investment in Wales' infrastructure for 30 years or more. Wales has one motorway, which stretches little beyond Swansea. There is also the enduring tax on its users when crossing the Severn. The SNP Scottish Government has abolished the taxes on its bridges. The state of our railways is abysmal, with decrepit stations and rolling stock, and a very poor service. There has been no electrification whatsoever, and no real plans for future development or improvement.
Heavy industry and manufacturing has contracted to such a degree that it has virtually disappeared. Central government hasn't devolved any more of its agencies to Wales since the DVLA and the Royal Mint. What we can expect, if it actually takes place, is a military academy at St Athan, which will train the UK's armed forces to be more efficient at killing. Most of its highly paid staff will be brought from elsewhere.
Things are bad now, but admittedly they were worse in the 30s. However, other parts of the UK, particularly parts of England, have fared much better than Wales. We have only structure of the UK to blame for that inequality. Government has been over centralised at Westminster, and wealth has been attracted to London and the south east as a result.
Even the extremely modest level of devolution in Wales has led to significantly increased prosperity for Cardiff and its hinterland. When compared to the economic development of Dublin, though, it pales into insignificance.
What we need is much more devolution if Wales is to move forward. At the very least a Scottish style parliament is required. Much better would be a sovereign state, able to direct Wales' economy from stagnation to success and prosperity.
At no time can the miserable whingeing petty-minded unionists who contribute here point to a golden age in Wales' past when its people did well under English, British or UK government. They can only promise us more deprivation and inequality. When challenged they offer us no hope for the future.
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#80
Talking of dirty tricks by unionists in Spain.
I've no doubt that when the Scots are faced with an independence referendum, the British unionist parties will use every dirty trick they can. We can expect more of what happened at Glenrothes where Labour retained the seat after losing Glasgow East to the SNP. The unprecedented high level of postal votes at Glenrothes has been viewed as suspicious, especially when the Scottish Courts Service subsequently admitted that the register has been lost.
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Message 80...
Some 4 thousand odd votes were discounted here in Wales in 1997, those may have defeated the miserable 0.05% 'winning' margin.
Democratic margins cane be just one vote...Yes?
The Basque Nationalists got wiped out. Thats's democracy, as we were informed after '97,...live with it..
Apart from that.... what's your point.
Message 81...
The bit below is typical, I enter a quite rational and reasonable summary of what I want, you attack it, but not being satisfied with that, you add your own bits to it, in an attempt to make out I said something altogether different.
Stick to what I wrote, and not another word, or letter more.
If you cannot counter it, do not attempt to make issue, by altering it to suit your failure to so do..
...."Just to get this plain and out in the open MAppex - you want ALL representations of Wales as a separate entity (everything political of course) but also no BBC Wales for example and crucially - no international football or rugby representation, except as part of England or Britain? Is that truly what you say - and does this represent True Wales by the way?
I neither know or care what TW has to say on that matter, I speak only for myself.
If I write anything on here, with any reference that can give a impression I speak for TW, I only do so after clearing it with the committee, or secretary of TW.
Just because I am a member, does not imply I speak for TW.
Message 82,
Having already explained to another that the implication in my comment was to a overseeing third party of any sort in Wales, I am not surprised the very verbiose Brynt took it upon himself to further play the censor.
Tell me Brynt, just where in my message did I make any bones about the social or commercial conditions of the 1930's
At the same time, please tell me what do events, often brought onto this blog by YOU, that took place ten, or more centuries ago, have to do with the Wales of 2009?
Please do not regurgtitate all the same old crap all over again.
Just be specific. 2009, and this year only, if you please.
I just wish I had the facility of foresight, so I could return with what could be our future in Wales, if the likes of Brynt gets his way.
He, by adding and taking out of context, from my messages, and then spouting a rehash of his many past historical, hysterical even, lengthy messages, should give a definative clue as to his performance, if he ever managed to get elected to that government, he so admires for it's potential.
I can easily visualise the whole Assembly Chamber reverberating to the snoring, in response to his sleep inducing speeches.
Message 83,,,
I have no argument with that.
If it contravenes the electoral regulations, then it should be dealt with, just as those people were dealt with last week over in England.
However, just as I accepted defeat in the '97 referendum by such a debatable majority, I also accept results, be they called incorrect, or whatever, unless they are PROVEN to be so.
As in all cases of allegation, all that matters is evidence, sufficient to prove the case.
So unless YOU have personal and sufficient evidence to prove what you say, I suggest you leave the matter off these pages..
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"The Basque Nationalists got wiped out. Thats's democracy, as we were informed after '97,...live with it.."
They were not - the PNv (the mainstream nationalist party) had about the same percentage as the last election and more seats. The disqualification of the more radical nationalist parties disenfranchised 100,000 people (a little more than 4,000 (not enough to defat Yes vote even if all votes were counted as No) - 25 times as many infact). Despite that the PNV still the largest party:...hardly "wiped out".
But there you go - facts ain't your strong point.
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Mess 84 - Good to clear that TW are not saying that they are in favour of Wales losing all international representation. But logically that's the last stop on their journey.
However - are you personally in favour of Wales losing all separate international representation such as an international football team, rugby team etc...?
Just so that I don't get the wrong end of the stick in the future you see.
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Message 82.....
The quote from Brynt, copied below, is somewhat quite silly...
".....There has been virtually no significant investment in Wales' infrastructure for 30 years or more. Wales has one motorway, which stretches little beyond Swansea. There is also the enduring tax on its users when crossing the Severn. The SNP Scottish Government has abolished the taxes on its bridges. The state of our railways is abysmal, with decrepit stations and rolling stock, and a very poor service. There has been no electrification whatsoever, and no real plans for future development or improvement...."
As mentioned, time out of number, the only bridges that matter, as far as Wales and this discussion is concerned, are the two across the Severn.
Both are now in the ownership of a French consortium, funnily enough not handed to that firm by Labour, so there is one matter you are wrong to rattle on about, in the same breath as mentioning the present government.
Mention was made elsewhere, in reference to Powys' roads being by far the best in Wales, no wonder when Powys has a massive tax collection with next to nowt to spend it on, only the basics, which without doubt Powys takes to mean, including decent roads.
Now, considering the amount of north south traffic that uses central Wales, I think central Wales does very well as far as infrastructure is concerned, it lacks not at all for utility supplies, nor as just mentioned, decent roads.
In fact rather OTT, allowing for it's disparate population, and expanded distances.
Coming to the south Wales coastal corridor, we have the M4, sometimes a bit clogged, but so gets the M25, the M6, the M1, in fact most of the M network on occasions. All over Britain, not just here in Wales.
The Heads of the Valleys road is now one of the best in Europe, and I can state that emphatically as a frequent traveller on Euro roads.
North Wales is similarly well blessed for roads.
As for the rail system, can you really be talking from a standpoint of common sense.
Do you really think it a vital and essential operation to electrify the lines from Swansea to London?
We are talking a rail line that carries a fraction of those electrified lines in England. But I can agree it could do with some upgrading.
Will you welcome the extra charges that would sure to be made if the costs went on to the fare structure.
In fact do you actually use that line regularly, to give credence to your complaint?
The engineers and experts have all been at it for years, but never seem able to justify the expense over the passenger loading figures.
So where are we in Wales being short changed, would you really like to have a rail line to your front door?
The hubs are reachable by most, in a reasonable time, and I live quite as far away, as most, from a major hub, even, relatively speaking, from a minor station.
The main commuter route in Wales south, is that from Pontypridd to Cardiff, is an adequate line for most purposes, but I suppose, again, you want it electrifying.
From Cardiff, the line along the border to Chester, is hardly used, do you want that electrifying, and made to carry inter city traffic.?
OK! so you think we are deprived.... Please outline what you would have done, over and above those items I have just mentioned, but keep it rational, nothing fanciful for non existing passenger numbers.
May I offer a couple of ideas,
A central Wales airport to carry international traffic?
A new six lane motorway from the Heads of the Valleys road to Hawarden?
A new high speed rail connection mainly alongside that new six lane highway, Cardiff to Chester maybe?
Of course as I stated, I can go for the London/Paddington to Swansea line being up graded. But who pays for it?
Have I left anything out?
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...." 4,000 (not enough to defat Yes vote even if all votes were counted as No) - 25 times as many infact). ....
That is not what I referred to.
I was referring to the 'accepted' 0.05% majority in '97 here in Wales where over 4000 votes were disallowed for various reasons, and further, I would say as such a large number were disallowed for WHATEVER reason, it should have been enough to trigger a re run of that Referendum.
On the other hand, if you are telling me that the 4K votes were only one twenty fifth of the number in majority, then I think your own 'facts', as well as your maths, are askew.
To say so, would be to tell me that the 0.05% 'yes' majority was pretty well the total votes cast not just those in favour.
Otherwise, you are attempting to respond to my messages far too rapidly, I would suggest you slow down when reading my messages, and stop shooting from the hip.
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"I would suggest you slow down when reading my messages"
Beyond...the 4000 votes disqualified in 97 were 25 times less than the 100,000 disqualified in the BAsque elections you refer to.
The 4,000 disqualified in 97 were less than the Yes majority..why should that trigger a re-vote?
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KelvinD your #72
You must read carefully, the first word of the first paragraph at #69 .....
"Yes, a place should have just one name, historically the people of a location would and should be the custodians of their place name."
I would have pointed out your error sooner but I have been out all day.
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message 89,....
Having checked, I coincede the 4k were not enough for the purpose of causing a re run, but neither was the majority for 'yes' one hundred thousand more than the 'nays'
And furthermore also having checked I am now totally convinced tne ersult was not a valid on.
Only 50.1 percent of those allowed to, actually voted, the turn out was far too low for an acceptable result, no matter which way it went.
And that is why I call for future elections to be mandatory, on all with the franchise.
By such, will we get a far more accurate perception of just how many wish to see the changes being called for.
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PS to message 91, in reference to message 89...
There are laws to which all nations have to abide, it would seem Spain has laws that outlaw, or certainly sanction, part of the political party spectrum.
In the main such laws reside in the more democratic regions, for historical reasons.
I would think we are not above sanctioning some here in the UK.
For example the Nazi party, or maybe the Let's Have Child Pornography Party or indeed any number that would serious;y be unacceptable to the general population.
Germany and most Euro states, also have such restrictive laws.
It would seem this is the case in Spain.
Now as far as I am concerned, I do not comment on internal matters that concern exotic locations and their political structures, I have to remind you, as you are one of those constantly grumping about our involvement in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. that you cannot have both the penny and the bun.
Effectively, what goes on in Spain has nowt to do with you, or me, all you and I can make issue of, not being involved, is the result.
For whatever reason, the electorate in Spanish Basque region appears to have reversed favours..
Like it or lump it.
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penddu at #70 wrote .....
"George Orwell may (or may not) have had a point 65 years ago. But times change and his views are irrelevant to today's debates." I hope you didn't mind I added the apostrophe at "today's debate".
I was not quite sure whether this statement meant just Orwell's "Notes on Nationalism" or all his writing, then I wondered, would penduu recognise the similarity between Welsh Nationalism and Animal Farm. Or any other nationalism for that matter.
The part that I doubt I will ever forget is in the last chapter ......
ALL ANIMALS ARE EQUAL
BUT SOME ANIMALS ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS
Capitalisation as printed in the book, it is not shouting.
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Well lads, from a blog discussing future budget cuts and a general shortfall of money the usual suspects have turned it onto a free for all on:
- Welsh Language (surprise surprise)
- Oxford v Rhydychen
- Basque Elections
Is it any wonder that people think Wales isn't fit to govern itself?
Mappexx - As a North Walian I can assure we are not "blessed" for roads as you put it and I take offence at the suggestion that we are. We have 1 good one. That's it. 1. Uno. Singular. I don't think that is a blessing.
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In the year 1494 A.D. the Irish were subjected to Poyning's Law. A measure where the Assembly Parliament of Ireland were forced to request laws from the English King. The Lieutenant and Irish Council would certify the law and then forward to England for approval. If the King approved it would be returned to Ireland for the parliament in Ireland to pass the bill.
Sound familiar???
So in summary, our devolution settlement is based on the model that the Irish had imposed on them 500 years ago...
I'd LOVE to hear the unionists defend this one
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"ohn Walter Jones, chairman of the S4C Authority and the Welsh language channel's chief executive Iona Jones also gave evidence to the committee.
They were asked why, as an organisation receiving public funding, S4C was allowed to submit a report about its future plans to Ofcom confidentially."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/8034537.stm
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#93 TheStonemason
Orwell's 'Animal Farm'
You've excelled yourself on this one, Stonemason.
Why don't you instead draw attention to '1984' in which Orwell foresaw a hideous future of state surveillance and totalitarian control.
The British State is well on its way there:
- Extended detention without charge or trial
- ID Cards Act, creation of the National Identity Register (NIR)
- Use of Passports as vehicles for creating the NIR
- RFID chips in Passports
- The Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act (RIPA)
- The Terrorism Act 2000
- The Anti-terrorism Crime and Security Act 2001
- The Prevention of Terrorism Act 2005
- The Terrorism Act 2006
- Terrorism legislation was used to arrest the protestor who shouted 'Nonsense' at Jack Straw at a Labour Conference
- CCTV and surveillance cameras (greatest concentration in the world)
- Massive expansion of MI5 and MI6
- Interception of telephone communications
- All email/internet details for the use of police and security services
- Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) cameras
- The Official Secrets Acts
- The D-Notice system controlling publication of sensitive information
- The 'taming' of the media, particularly the BBC
- Read about what happened to Damian Green MP, as an example of what the police can now get away with.
- The Supply of 50 items of information to the US on all travellers from UK.
- The use of torture by British forces, and assisting the CIA in extraordinary rendition
I believe that we have to be careful what we say and write, even on these blogs (not just the BBC's), as they are monitored, not simply moderated.
All the above give rise to an extremely serious cause for concern. The powers of the state need to be rolled back significantly. No unionist party that I'm aware of seeks to do so to any great extent. We can only expect more of the same from New Labour and the Tories. Our rights and liberties are under threat as never before in peace time. I would be worried even were I not Welsh and living in Wales and would be campaigning for the repeal of much of the security legislation of recent decades.
You are cherry picking what suits you from Orwell's writings, much of which I agree with, simply to accord with your own prejudices. Orwell, I'm sure, wouldn't want his work misused in such a way.
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There is only one similarity between Poyning's Law and the most recent Government of Wales Act 2006, neither are democratic.
There is no defence for the undemocratic Government of Wales Act 2006, the electorate were promised a vote, just as the Welsh Henry VII suppressed the people of Ireland, the electorate of 21st century Wales is prevented from voicing its approval, or not, suppression I believe.
Now drivel, what exactly is your point?
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brynt41 .....
I enjoyed 1984 and could on a sunny day agree with certain of your points, I would add issues of a domestic nature to the list.
But, I witness signs of Orwell's Animal Farm sign in our green and pleasant land.
ALL ANIMALS ARE EQUAL
BUT SOME ANIMALS ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS .... once again ..... Capitalisation as printed in the book, it is not shouting.
Orwell was no lover of Nationalism, I think he might be content in its use to defend the United Kingdom from your prejudices.
David Cameron recently said less central government is the way forward.
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message 94...
Are you so obtuse as to believe I do not know north Wales?
The raea needs no more tha it already has.
The road system is sufficient unto tne requirements of the area. Or do you follow Brynt's notion that the whole of Wales should be restructured to accomodate some sort of road and rail fantasy land.
If it ever comes necessary for further roads, and rail lines, to be installed, you can bet you boopy they will appear. It's all a matter of economics, not wishful dreaming for the unnecessary..
That is unless those lovely north Walian Nimby's start weeping and wailing about the loss of their beautiful scenery to accomodate such improvements.
To proceed to your message 95...
No, I cannot defend it at all, but what I can say is, when we can show the Assembly WAG itself is ACTUALLY necessary, then we can talk about new lawmaking, and LCO's by the dozen.
Until that take happens, I wouldn't bother my rear end worrying about it.
However, if that is the model in use, so what? the churches are still using a cross to represent their faith, and that has been around far longer than the model you were sarcastically scathing about.
You see.... Some 'models' do not age, as proved by that 'Cross' If it worked in Ireland 500 years ago, then I cannot see why it cannot be used for present day purposes. Suitably modernised etc.
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message 97....
I cannot speak for Stoney, but for myself, I have been constantly making comments about those very matters listed by you.
Instead of just piling on, list after list, history lesson after history lesson, why don't you try answering the question you have been asked time and again..
Just how would you create the wealth necessary to raise Wales above the low level you keep harping about?
Not so easy to do that, as to pour out reams of text, which you apparently hope will deflect that question.
We all have suspicions about the depth to which the 'State' will sink chasing total control of us, each and every one, but that, as I have said before 'boils no parsnips' with folk who need the answers you appear unwilling, but more than likely, are unable to answer.
As for taking care, just what do you really think the 'State' will do to a load of grumping bloggers?
We have no true access to any media outlet that could result in our message being spread far enough to harm the State.
The State knows it, and ignores us for our worthlessness.
A letter or so, to the Press, if accepted for publication, a few messages on here that impacts hardly at all in the great scheme of things, an occasional court appearance, trying to plead political suppression, all over and forgotten, by the time the fish and chips hit the page the next evening, after a few jars in the local.
Have you ever noticed none of this gets onto the mainstream media, but according to the fears you make issue of, we should be getting at least a few onto the letters, or editorial, pages of some daily nationals.
We don't, so your tatty little secrets are safe with Betsan.
You may run off yards of 'facts and figures' but it doesn't mean anyone is reading it.
Nor are they likely to be reading the responses.
On a personal basis, I write to these blogs for mebtal agility, and the sheer the fun of it.
What's your excuse?
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101, PS...
And it keeps me from potential subliminal indoctrination, by being glued fish eyed to the Telly for hours on end.
I must explain, I find it very difficult to read these days. I ain't blind, but appear to suffer narcosis whenever I have a book before me.
Open page 1, read to half way down.... nod off.
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message 100,.. revision... re 94...
I apologise for a dropped letter, it should have read, ....
...."bet YOUR boopy..."
... not as it seemed to say, 'you boopy'. Unintentional typo again.
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#101 mapexx wrote:
"I write to these blogs for mebtal(sic) agility, and the sheer the(sic) fun of it."
Your contributions don't appear to say much for your mental agility, but by their sheer number and length should make you a genius.
"Never mind the quality, Feel the Width", comes to mind.
#102
"I ain't blind, but appear to suffer narcosis whenever I have a book before me."
Why aren't we at all surprised at that?
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message104....
I deliberately placed that one on so you or one of the other numbskulls, would rise to the bait, and you never let me down.
Another one who appears to get (sick) when someone drops a slight typo.
But for sheer brass necked affrontry, you take the biscuit, calling me over for lengthy messages.
At least in mine I make argument, whereas, in yours, all that comes across is pedantic and idiotic references to past eras, or that vile set up in Westminster, matters that that bear little, if any, relationship to the modern political situation in Wales. Or indeed the UK in toto.
In regards feeling width and quality, how about some answers to those pertinent questions you have been faced with?
So far, neither quality, or width, has ensued.
The sight of a back, in retreat, is not very edifying, or retro stimulating.
Why should you be surprised I suffer from a sort of narcosis, when reading? It matters not to you or anyone else, it is something I have to bear living with.
But as I began, you couldn't resist the opportunity to play your usual silly game,.... having a prod.
I should have lied, and said I was in a similar physicality to Stephen Hawking, I wonder how your nasty streak of a mentality would have responded then?
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No.90 Stonemason
To sum up: after Stonemason stated that it was "pathetic" to translate place names, he was asked the very straightforward question (a simple 'yes' or 'no' answer being sufficient):
"Do you always use original place names such as Dinbych and Llanbedr Pont Steffan in conversation, rather than their "pathetic" (as you put it) English translations?"
Embarrassingly for him, he avoided answering the question, not once but twice, knowing full well that to do so would expose his utter (and, may I suggest, customary) hypocrisy.
No further questions, m'lud.
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message 106...
When the MAJORITY, that is about 80% of the Welsh 'exclusively' call those places by their Cymraeg title, then, and only then, YOU have an argument, unless, and until, your argument is fallacious.
There are places in Wales that have no 'acceptable' equivalent in Cymraeg, and must therefore use the Anglo version. Even though the original is in the Cymraeg. I am referring to their spellings rather than their pronunciations, which is what you may be on about.
However, as stated, when the majority actually use those by pronouncing in the Cymraeg fashion, your call will be creditable.
The name of my place of residence?.... Varteg.
The Cymraeg version being... 'Farteg',... as you can see, unacceptable in polite company chit chat.
In fact, at one time only a year or so ago, I put my place name, in Cymraeg, on a couple of blogs, only to have the messages blocked as part of the name was not acceptable.
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#107 mapexx wrote:
"The name of my place of residence?.... Varteg.
The Cymraeg version being... 'Farteg'"
We might now hazard a guess as to how it got its name. Does it by any chance produce a lot of unsavoury hot air?
Strange that the area has so many Welsh place names, such as Abersychan, etc, when one or two on here claim that Gwent is in England.
Today we celebrate ten years since the first Assembly elections. The BBC as usual is also providing a lot of hot air about it while managing to sit on the fence. And who's in the limelight? None other than Alun Michael MP, its unwanted First Minister, parachuted in by Tony Blair to manage it.
He's quoted as saying something as silly as, 'It hasn't managed to punch above its weight!' Of course not, Alun, it doesn't have any weight, because it doesn't have any powers.
If they'd actually given Wales a proper measure of devolution, then we might have something worth celebrating.
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KelvinD your #106
Are you unable to read plain English ..... my answer was and is .....
"Yes, a place should have just one name, historically the people of a location would and should be the custodians of their place name."
The yes should give it away.
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Messaeg 108...
....and that just about sums up the very reason we use the non Cymraeg 'V' instead of the hard 'F'.
A so called Welshman coming out with that load of tripe is why many in Gwent cannot abide the garbage being pumped out from Cardiff Bay, considering that locality is stuffed with the sort you appear to represent, and most of it is irrelevant to Gwent, at best.
Yes, you are quite right, there are many original names still extant in Gwent, but so there are in, Wiltshire, Avon(that dratted 'V' again)Herefordshire, Gloucestershire, Cheshire, Shropshire, in fact right up through northern Lancashire, to Cumbria, which is a is a corruption of Cymru.
So what do you think, should the Assembly get law making powers and annex all those places from Somerset to the Borders, that just happen to have retained ancient names?
Or will you just be satisfied with Gwent? With or without the 'V',in many of it's place names.
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Re 109
Stonemason
You're still not answering the question!!!
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FiDafydd
Are you making fun of me ?
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Mapexx wrote:
The name of my place of residence? ... Varteg. The Cymraeg version being ... 'Farteg' ... as you can see, unacceptable in polite company chit chat.
In fact, at one time only a year or so ago I put my place name, in Cymraeg, on a couple of blogs only to have the messages blocked as part of the name was not acceptable.
It's hard to imagine a word like "farthing" or "farther" being unacceptable ... almost as hard as it is to believe that our most verbose contributor wants us to take him seriously.
He lives in his very own, and very different, version of the world. Perhaps it was designed by Slarti********. Wwps, maybe he was telling the truth after all!
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Message 113...
You seem to be a bit daft pal.
The 'H' after the 'T' modifies the pronunciation, which the word search engine, on some internet blogs, overrides the intitial catch word censor.
FAR---thing.... far---ther. Fart---eg. get it?
Instead of being so damned clever, why not engage in the debate, not pick out bits to suits some silly agenda you seem to insist on following.
Can't please some people, they just have to play teacher.
But for that you need intellect.
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Re 114
mapexx
Yes intellect and knowledge are wonderful things. Interesting then that you don't seem to know that the sound of the letter 'f' in Welsh is the same as the English 'v', and that 'ff' is the same as the English 'f'. But I suppose they don't explain that in Enc. Britt.
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Re 112
Stonemason
No! Why do you ask that?
I'm just making the point that you're not willing to answer the question whether or not you use Dinbych or Llanbedr Pont Steffan every time you refer to those or similar places, because you have vehemently said that to translate place-names is 'pathetic'.
The question remains unanswered...
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Well to answer FiDafydd, when I visit any place I use the place name preferred by the local people, Lampeter or Llanbedr Pont Steffan, Denbigh or Dinbych, .....
how much of a difference is there in pronunciation between Denbigh or Dinbych,
..... it's just not an issue, either town could be renamed with the consent of the people to anything, except foul language. I do the same when travelling abroad.
So there you have it, let the people speak and I will step into line. I haven't visited either place in recent times.
But there is an unasked question, should it be Denbigh or Dinbych, have the people of the town been asked? This is a far more important question, because when there is only one place name there is no issue"
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Message 115...
I am well aware of the modulation of the letter 'f' into the anglo 'v'.
However, sd you do not even live in Wales, how would you begin to understand just why such modulations are made.
I am Welsh, and have a degree of understanding. So do not try the clever Henry with me.
As I have said before, never mind pulling a bit of info down from Wiki or wherever, and attempting to trip me up, you are neither wise enough, intelligent enough, or even awake enough, nor yet OLD enough..
I would just love to hear your attempt to pronounce Pontsticill, Llandegfeth, Pont y Pridd, and a few others.
Then we would see who needs the Ency' Britt.
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I have an observation for FiDafydd.....
We have Cardiff and Caerdydd, Caerphilly and Caerffili, yet only "Ystrad Mynach".
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reference again to message 115...
You OBVIOUSLY did NOT read message 110, in which it was explained about there being no difference in sound for the hard 'f' of Cymraeg and the 'V' of the English alphabet.
Maybe, if you read all the messages, instead of the last one on the page, you would not be so darned quick to punch your keyboard 'enter' key.
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Re 120
Surprise, surprise, mapexx does not understand. If we are talking about how letters sound - you called it 'polite company chit chat' - then Farteg is obviously not in any way problematic - is it?! Or is that beyond you?
But, hey, any excuse for a dig at the language you hate ...
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Re 119
And ...?
Look, I'm not making any case for the translation of place-names, I'm just noting that, as in the case of Rhydychen, it's been going on for centuries.
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Message 121....
You are such an ignorant fool.
But that is to be expected from someone who spends his worthless time seeking out messages to misread, misunderstand,(deliberately), and throw caustic, scurrilous and and unnecessary remarks, in the hopes his unintelligent garbage will make the slightest difference to the fact, he is being read by everyone else.
Who, I am sure by now, realise he has nothing to do with Wales, and is simply frequenting these boards simply to get his esoteric jollies at the expense of the proper Welsh people.
He cannot speak Cymraeg, does not understand correct grammar, nor even plain English, is simply a nasty piece of work; what is known as a 'troll', or so I am informed.
I have a more apt, and descriptive noun for him, but I realise it will not pass moderation, so cannot use it..
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Re 124
It seems the BBC has deemed that saying 'nos da' (good-night!!!) is not to be allowed on this blog.
I had just wanted to wish mapexx a good-night following his bad tempered rant in 123. Clearly he has lost the argument, and he knows it.
Here in Ceredigion, after a good night's sleep, I'll try again; I hope the moderators will allow me to explain that, at least ...
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