Waving or drowning?
"The irony" said Liberal Democrat leader Kirsty Williams this morning, "is not lost on me".
What irony was that? The fact that her party is using a mechanism provided by a system of devolution they regard as absurd to stall the progress of a form of devolution they regard as twisted.
In an 'if you can't beat the system for now, use it' kind of move the Lib Dems are taking advantage of the fact that the House of Lords must approve the transfer of any power to the Assembly to throw a spanner in the works of the transfer of power over Affordable Housing. (We didn't touch on the irony of the fact that an awful lot of housing experts seem to think suspending the right to buy would have pretty limited impact in areas of housing pressure anyway ... you can have too much irony in a morning).
Plaid, say the Lib Dems, have betrayed the principle of devolution by agreeing to the insertion of a veto on the abolition of the right to buy. Its legal legitimacy is now in question and in the name of defending the devolution process, the Lib Dems want it redrawn, minus the veto. The finger is pointed not at the Welsh Affairs Select Committee for raising concerns about the transfer of powers, or at the Secretary of State for coming up with the veto (note this corrected version - the solution came from the Secretary of State having taken the Committee's view into consideration) but at Plaid for agreeing to it: "that fatal Plaid Cymru climb-down put the Welsh devolution process in a very fragile situation".
When it comes to a General Election, there's no doubt Plaid will accuse the Lib Dems of standing in the way of the Assembly Governmen't efforts to gain extra powers to do something to provide affordable homes in areas of housing pressure. Perhaps Lib Dem canvassers ought to make note of their leader's response now on a pocket sized piece of paper and keep it at the ready for voters who'll care little about constitutional tussles but care a lot about affordable housing: "We wouldn't be having to do this if Plaid hadn't sold out".
Conservative peers ought to vote against it, says Nick Bourne, on the grounds that it was never a good idea. The fact that it's got caught in constitutional quicksand now is proof, he says, that they were right to oppose it all along. I'm not sure I follow that logic but I do follow the maths. If enough Conservative peers join forces with enough Lib Dem peers, then the LCO could sink in the quicksand, not just get stuck in it.
We know that at least one peer who sits on the cross benches is 'minded' to vote against it. Bear in mind that word "minded". Lord Dafydd Elis-Thomas may vote against it, then again he may not. He may not vote at all.
The irony, say irritated Labour voices, is that he's left it until now to question an Order that the National Assembly - over which he presides - has already supported democratically. Why not question raise his objections earlier? Why not question the way it was drafted earlier? With some justification, the Presiding Officer may point out that he did just that and got pretty short shrift at the time.
Six months ago the tussle over the transfer of these powers was already being described as "willy waving" by one acerbic Welsh MP. I dread to think what colourful turn of phrase he'd come up with now.
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
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The dog's breakfast has is the GoWA 2006 been thrown up again. Not a pretty sight.
All that will happen if the Lords vote it down is that the LCO request will fail and it will go back to the Assembly to be redrafted. Paul Murphy will just smile sweetly and say that it wasn't his fault ... and it will take maybe another 12 months before it gets to his desk again and he insists on putting in the exact same veto.
... and round and round in ever-diminishing circles until everybody gets fed up, or we get a Tory Government.
It is politics by delay. Chinese water torture. The same game that inspired Peter Hain to think up the GoWA 2006 in the first place. It entitles him to be two faced and say "I'm the greatest supporter devolution in Wales has got" while at the same time saying "... as long as nothing actually happens for the next generation."
Personally, I'd rather get limited powers now so that the Welsh Government can actually legislate on this important area. But if the LDs want to make "a point of principle" and the Tory peers in the Lords vote it down just because they don't like the policy it might deliver, on their heads be it.
All I know is that it will mean yet more people in Wales seeing through Hain's hypocrisy, saying "sod this for a game of soldiers" ... and voting to end the ridiculous LCO farce by voting "Yes" in the referendum.
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Oops, I certainly made a dog's breakfast of that first sentence. How about:
The dog's breakfast that is the GoWA 2006 has been thrown up again.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
For many, many decades Westminster has considered, debated, adopted, modified, made mistakes, made good.
And here in Wales we blame Westminster for the mistakes penned at Cardiff Bay. It is not the LCO system that is the farce, it is the buffoonery played out by those who would be "King".
I am amazed that the Assembly Members are unable to work with Westminster, to create legislation that is both needed by the population and does not create tensions within our constitution. The Housing LCO was meant to address issues to alleviate the distress found in social housing spheres, instead it left the people in need with nothing and politics in a disgraceful position.
We pay, through our taxes, a lot of hard earned money to maintain this shed full of dissenters, dissenters who have agenda's without ideas. I do not believe that the architects of this legislative proposal did not know major problems would be forthcoming, shame on them all, of every political persuasion.
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MH_______
You said;
"All I know is that it will mean yet more people in Wales seeing through Hain's hypocrisy, saying "sod this for a game of soldiers" ... and voting to end the ridiculous LCO farce by voting "Yes" in the referendum."
People I know are also saying "sod this for a game of soldiers" - but these people don't want this sort of legislation, these LCO's are seen as divisive and unnecessary, appearing petty, small minded and overly controlling.
The fuss about "its our right to decide on our own Laws" sounds fine, - but when confronted with the reality of these LCO's - reality looks like a nightmare.
And those who have set themselves up as having the right to decide on our laws - a cabal of out of touch, empire building, nationalist, fanatics.
Many Welsh People are not impressed with WAG's performance over this, they see Westminster as a saviour not a villain, and given a chance will vote against more powers.
Hain & others attempted to short cut the constitutional process, giving the Assembly extra powers, without the referendum they knew they would loose, and we were assured we would get.
Has as you say resulted in "a dogs breakfast", without a Referendum - it will remain so.
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Why blame the National Assembly when the mess was created by the insistance of a cabal of Labour MPs - who are at best either embittered (the MP for Cardiff South and Penarth comes to mind here) or arch anti devolutionists. West Wales where is your evidence that the people of Wales oppose more power to the National Assembly, when every poll and survey suggests the exact opposite? Hain proposed what he did to placate those anti devolution people in his own party. That after a very extensive commission came down clearly in favour of a Scottish type parliament.
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"Why blame the National Assembly" Lyn_Thomas writes at #6
Are you on the same planet, the LCO in question, all LCO's in fact, are written in Wales not Westminster, this is why criticism is laid at the feet of the Assembly.
Before Plaid slid into bed with Labour things were progressing, blame lies with this unholy coalition with separatists.
Wales needs houses not platitudes, homes not political rhetoric, and Wales needs them now.
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The National Assembly proposed an LCO then the MPs insisted on a clause that is causing the constitutional problem, thus its the fault of MPs.
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You have very strange ideas about democracy, West-Wales [#5].
Your "cabal of out of touch, empire building, nationalist fanatics" (whatever that might mean) have not "set themselves up". Every member of the Assembly was elected.
And yes, I quite agree that "many" people are not impressed by the Assembly, and see Westminster as their "saviour". But VERY MANY MORE think the Assembly should have more influence over their lives than Westminster ... by a margin of some three to one.
So, bring on the referendum and put an end to this current mess. We both agree on that. But all the polls show that it will be won rather than lost.
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Re 9
You're quite right, sentences such as -
"cabal of out of touch, empire building, nationalist fanatics"
are just silly. It also adds nothing to a serious debate. You're talking about a Welsh Government that has a Labour majority. Nowhere in my wildest dreams do Welsh Labour politicians, let alone ministers, come anywhere near being Welsh nationalists!
LCOs are inefficient and their progress ridiculously circuitous - that's why I would like to see the back of them. But in their place we need the simpler and more straight-forward Scottish Parliament system - after a referendum of course!
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Fair does empire building ain't cheap.
The assembly staff numbered about 6.500 back in 2006, but strangely that figure doesn't include Ams and their staff, how many staff can one AM employ?
We've got Cymru Embassies in the finest locations, in the Worlds most exotic cities, how many lucky souls staff each embassy? PS, both assembly ministers and BBC Wales call these embassies, embassies, we have them in..... Sydney, Hong Kong, New york, Milan, San Francisco, Seoul, Paris, Brussels, Munich, Dublin, Shanghai, Mumbai, Tokyo......have I missed any? The rent alone on our swish offices in the prestigious New York Chrysler building is £240,000 a year.
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Lyn at 6;
"West Wales where is your evidence that the people of Wales oppose more power to the National Assembly, when every poll and survey suggests the exact opposite?"
We don't make major Constitutional changes on the findings of opinion polls.
We were assured we would have a Referendum before the Assembly got more powers - lets have it.
If the polls are right - you'll get the powers, so why are you against putting the question to the Welsh people.
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MH______ at 9;
"Every member of the Assembly was elected."
20 out of the 40 AM's have no loyalty to the people only their party.
Labour to stay in power have done a deal with a minority party - that deal involves pursuing radical separatist policies supported at the ballot box by less than 25% of the electorate.
This small unrepresentative group, are using their position in government to further their Nationalist/Independence agenda.
You also comment;
"I quite agree that "many" people are not impressed by the Assembly, and see Westminster as their "saviour". But VERY MANY MORE think the Assembly should have more influence over their lives than Westminster ... by a margin of some three to one"
You are basing your view on opinion polls - for various reasons the results of recent polls can be shown to be suspect with large margins for error.
I'll accept the disastrous way the UK has been governed for the last 10 years has coloured popular opinion - across the UK people want shot of labour.
Socialism (given the performance of labour governments since they first took office in 1924, and especially since 1945) is clearly a deeply flawed ideology.
But the recent nonsense over LCO's particularly the Language and housing LCO's is refocusing attention on the Assembly.
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Extending the powers of the National Assembly so they have more primary legislative power is not on the scale of things a major constitutional change. Changing the composition of the House of Lords arguably is more so, yet no referendum on that. Creating a National Assembly was the major change. And also all those 20 additional members are voted for by the public, you have two votes. If the party doesn't get the vote then the members aren't elected. Their loyalty (as far as I can see) is to their electorate. Just like constituency members, the selection of which you have no control over either. As for the claim that a referendum would be held before it got more power, can you point to that? The National Assembly gained and lost power under the old system with every act of parliament passed - it would be absurd to have a referendum each time. The Assembly was elected with parties with a clear manifesto on powers, people voted for pro devolution parties by a huge margin.
Labour were the largest party in the National Assembly, the only other available groupings would have been the rainbow coalition - with Plaid providing a First Minister, or a Lab/LibDem coalition - which the Lib Dems rejected early on. Which would you have gone for? Incidentally both alternative coalitions would have been committed to a referendum to transfer powers to the National Assembly and all would have campaigned for a yes vote. I really don't see much out there outside the BNP and UKIP who want a no vote.
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Can you tell me as well what radical separatist policies that the new One Wales Government are pursuing? I can't actually see any that are separatist.
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Re 14
Precisely Lyn.
As I've said before - only in my wildest dreams ...!!
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Its like True Wales (sic) claiming that a Welsh Honour is preparation for independence.... Butetown has an annual award ceremony, that is an honours system... do they want to leave the Union (actually for all the help they have had and the way they have been treated they would be better off if they did).
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message 14....
It's like giving you a map of the world, only for you to see just Wales.
There is a bigger picture, and a scenario being played out, that if you can expand your view to encompass it, you will see what at the moment, you cannot see, is there for the seeing.
Or to put it another way, as I said to you recently, try reading between the lines, and stop sticking rigidly to the script.
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Re 17
What??!!
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