Constitutional chicanes
Jeremy Clarkson relies on "The Stig", an anonymous helping hand who at top speeds guides guests through the complex and unfamiliar territory and chicanes of the racing track. I rely on "The Constitutional Stig" who guides me through ... you're there ahead of me.
He doesn't wear a helmet. He doesn't drive fast but he is required, on days like today, to think fast.
What are the implications of the conclusions to which the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments has come? This is what I've gathered.
It's extremely rare for the JCSI to report in this way, in other words to express its concerns so strongly.
Its members do not say you can't do it. They have no right to say you can't do it but they have the right to say that if you do it, then in our view you are in danger of approving an Order that would not be lawful.
Why might it not be lawful?
The problem according to them is the so-called veto, the compromise, the agreement - call it what you will; the bit stuck in to get around MPs' objections to the Assembly having the power to abolish the right to buy. What it does is create a situation where Welsh Ministers and the Secretary of State must first to agree to the Assembly as an institution having that power before it can be used. Instead of power being transferred from one institution to another - lock, stock via an LCO - the Ministers and Secretary of State of the day pop up and play a crucial role.
The Committee doesn't think they have the right to do that.
It believes that part of the Order - sensible compromise or not - is outside the powers of the Government Of Wales Act 2006. It might get around the Welsh Affairs Select Committee's objections to transferring the powers but the Committee's reading is that it's unlawful.
The options: the Assembly Government and the Wales Office forge ahead. The Order is whipped through the House of Commons. How keen, however, would the Lords be to ... well ... vote in favour of an Order that half a dozen of their own number have expressed serious doubts as to its legality?
Could there be a legal challenge, a judicial review? Is there a whiff of a challenge coming for the Liberal Democrats, who claim that "if the Labour government presses ahead with this Order as it is currently drafted then it could raise serious legal questions and bring the whole devolution process into disrepute"?
The Wales Office and Assembly Government could backtrack, return to Go, collect £200 in legal bills and redraft. The Assembly has already approved the Order, so there would be quite some unravelling to do.
Backtracking? No way comes the response. Jointly the Wales Office and Welsh Assembly Government put it like this:
"Both the UK Government and the Welsh Assembly Government have noted the conclusions of the JCSI, but we are confident that the Order we have agreed, and which was approved in the National Assembly for Wales, is legal under the Government of Wales Act. We therefore intend to proceed with the Order."
Or as the Counsel General, Carwyn Jones put it in the chamber: "the JCSI doesn't have a veto of any kind over the way in which an LCO does proceed in the future. Certainly, we are confident that there is no difficulty in terms of the vires of the LCO with regard to any future devolution of power."
In other words, bring it on.
Impenetrable stuff? Almost.
Insignificant? Certainly not.
A switch-off and suitable only for anoraks? Perhaps but then sometimes, that's what blogs are for.
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~07~RS~)
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So Betsan, those of us who call for full democracy in Wales, that is, a new and evenly balanced referendum campaign, with all cards and proposals on the table, must yet again, be fobbed off with a welter of gobbledygook verbal garbage.
It is either a veto or it isn't, how the hell is the voter expected to pick the bones out of what seems to be a cloudy load of waffle.
If this devolution nonsense had not been instigated in the first place we would not be having these sorts of dispute between Cardiff and London.
But if this is the future carry on then I can see London, if not under Labour, most certainly under the Tory's opting to cull the whole shooting match.
The Tory for all his faults I believe, genuinely, does not wish to see the break up of the UK, and if they become the only party to state they will, categorically, dispense with it, for it's unwarranted and unnecessary complexities, I can visualise a hell of support swinging towards them in the next general election, or maybe even the next referendum, whichever comes first.
But as a footnote, and referring to the statement by Plaid that the party is now heading for independence, I saw a report from the NHS managers committee, ( forgot the exact title, but based in Bridgend) which more or less confirmed there is a groundswell within the ranks of the WAG, to recognise the border as solid.
It went on about cross border payments for treatments, with EU states.
In some few hundred words, of a four page report, the UK was mentioned just once, if I recall correctly. England not at all.
So we are already half way there, are we?
Amazing what comes to light, despite the report not being made widely available to the public, or so I am told.
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Does anyone else think that the model's jumper is too tight? It seems he is... well.. cameltoeing!
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message 2.....
So when not blog bothering, you frequent the 'blue' sites, where, I am told such terms as 'cameltoe' are common parlance.
Not very PC, and I don't mean Plaid Cymru.
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an addition to message 1, cut and pasted from the NHS as mentioned web page....
"We understand from the discussions
ongoing at European level that it would be possible to have contact points at sub-national levels wherethis is appropriate, so for example, there could be a
contact point for NHS Wales."
I took careful not of the term ....
........'SUB NATIONAL'
When checked on I was informed by some person involved, it translates as ...
.......REGIONAL....
Not quite as others would have it then.
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What a "bloody" mess. No doubt there are lawyers working for WAG,HMG, and House of Lords and all earning high salaries/pension rights etc etc and good luck to them bit in all reality is this the best use of public funds at this time?.Surely we need this settled for a 20-30 year period one way or other and let it get on with whatever powers it is given.With regard 4 the EU can only recognize "countries" that have signed up to the Treaty of Rome as amended. In our case the country is the UK and that and that alone has voting rights. Whilst wales as a "region" is eligeable for grants because of its "poverty" it has to go through UK government who have to also fund part of project. It is a difficult concept to have a "country" within a legal entity which everybody accepts is a COUNTRY.This would apply to running of NHS in wales as its responsibility for provision of services to EU citizens(other than UK) would be laid down in UK committed agreements.
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If the WAG and Westminster worked together this abomination would not happen.
It begs the question "does anyone care for the electorate".
Could it be the cynical amongst the people have been correct, "it has been the pursuit of power, not pursuit of solutions" in this green and pleasant land.
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Does anyone else think that it is time for a new cover version of that Sinitta hit, from the PWL 'Hit Factory', 'GTO'..
Perhaps we could prevail upon Pete Waterman to re-write it for Kirsty Williams to sing to Paul Murphy 'Big Red, Big Red LCO... Is it me he loves ? Or just the LCO...?'....
And on the B-side a cover of 'So Macho...'
Maybe it's just me then.. I'll get my coat..
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
If this so called parliament in Cardiff is not done away with quickly, the Nats will gain gain control of it and fill the House of Lord's with Plaidophile Lords like Daffyd Wigley.Wales will descend into complte chaos.The credit crunch will have nothing on it.We will be ruled by a bunch of cabals.We will descend to Zimbabwe's level.we should have a secretry of state like we used to.Look at the excellent men we have lost John redmond, an excellent man , and he found time to write TV programmes like Brookside as well as being secretry of State.Also David Gibson watt, he combined his office with importing bananas.What a man! Wales needs more like them.Bananas and Brookside in the Bay
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Re 9
mapexx,
Are you saying that the Welsh nation doesn't have the right to vote Plaid if that's what they wish to do? Are you saying that you want to take that right away from them? All this business about a lack of democracy from you is just prejudiced nonsense then ...
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We have one parliament, and that is in London. It makes laws for the whole of Britain, of which Wales is an integral part. After referendums, it was decided to devolve certain powers to Scotland and Wales (the plan was also to devolve similar powers to the regions of England but that did not work out). The Welsh Assembly is supposed to be administering and running our health and education for which Westminster gives it a hefty devolved budget.
Instead we see WAG indulging in a costly and ill founded attempt at "nation building".
They should stop debating LCOs and get on with doing the job they are paid to do. It might be more boring, but actually trying to improve health and education in Wales would be quite welcomed by some of us. Getting the Welsh economy on its feet would also be very nice.
The years since devolution have been marked by the decline and stagnation of Wales in comparison to the rest of the UK. If we saw the increases in the levels of school funding enjoyed by England in recent years, how much better for our children. Wales has become the poorest region in the UK: welsh output per head has fallen from 80% of the UK average to just 75% (the 2007 figure) in the last decade. I do not know the details, but I suspect that the WAG is also losing the plot on health (for example, what spending cuts have resulted to make up the lost revenue from free hospital car parking and prescriptions?).
Labour made a historic mistake when it got into bed with Plaid. Plaid are a nationalist party who want Welsh independence. They are welcome to campaign for that, but most of us do not want independence and do not vote fro Plaid. Labour should have nothing to do with Plaid. All of the parties that do not want independence should be united and leave Plaid out in the cold where it belongs.
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Be careful, Daf. Message 9 was from maappex, not mapexx.
They say truth is stranger than fiction. Well, to extend the analogy, this maappex is nowhere near as strange, or as funny, as the mapexx we know and love.
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Re 12
Am I losing my mind?! It's because mapexx doesn't speak to me any more. I see that my intervention has disappeared, for the time being anyway. It must have been something I said...
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#11 huwblog wrote:
"We have one parliament, and that is in London. It makes laws for the whole of Britain, of which Wales is an integral part. After referendums, it was decided to devolve certain powers to Scotland and Wales (the plan was also to devolve similar powers to the regions of England but that did not work out)."
If your comments are to be credible, and persusive, they should be accurate (and referring to economic statistics, you should provide some kind of reference)
Scotland has a Parliament, which has powers to legislate on everything other than a small list of reserved matters, such as foreign policy. It was not planned to devolve primary legislative powers to the English regions.
"...we see WAG indulging in a costly and ill founded attempt at "nation building"."
The WAG is the executive body which governs Wales. It commands a majority in the National Assembly of Wales. It has no need to 'nation build' as Wales is recognised as a nation by the UK Government. It has a capital city, and national institutions, a national flag and national anthem (Btw, England does not have an anthem). Not to mention national teams in all the major sports. Ofcom defines Wales as a nation, and that is accepted by the BBC.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/annualreport/trust/outlook/trust_outlook_uk.shtml
Ill-informed individuals who deny Wales' status confuse 'nation' with 'nation-state'. That is pure ignorance, They form an opinion on blind prejudice.
The decline in GDP in Wales has been consistent since the early 1990s, and is not a reflection of the success or otherwise of the WAG, or the NAW, since it has very little power to stimulate the economy. Those levers are held by the Treasury and the BoE. How would you like to take the blame for someone else's mistakes?
Where you are correct is in stating the Wales is the poorest part of the UK, and has been for decades. It has higher levels of unemployment, lower wages, more benefit claimants, more single parent families, more teenage pregnancies etc... from long before the devolution referendum.
You can contrast Wales' historic poverty with the success of the RoI over the last 30 years. Ireland is geographically disadvantaged, but having the power to direct its economy has created more wealth and a higher GDP than either the UK or England.
Don't respond by saying that the RoI is in difficulty right now, without pointing out that thanks to Blair and Brown the UK is in the worst mess of any member state of the EU. Nearly all the banks went bankrupt, sterling is falling through the floor, and we're staring the abyss in the face, with the first instalment of 75bn of quantitative easing commencing in a last ditch attempt to avoid deflation.
All our savings, salaries, wages and pensions will be devalued significantly. If Brown's gamble fails, then its the bankruptcy of UK plc. Either way, we will pay the price of the British Government's financial incompetence by a drop in standards of living and higher taxes for decades. Wales will pay a higher price than most parts of the UK.
"Labour made a historic mistake when it got into bed with Plaid"
Labour had little choice. The LibDems didn't want to deal with them for a second time. The Tories were totally unacceptable. That left Plaid or an unstable minority administration.
Imo it was Plaid that made a bad deal. It was predictable that Labour would promise a lot but in practice give a only a little.
In any case Labour is doomed to outer darkness at the next GE. Oddly enough it may fare less badly in Wales, because it was supported in government by Plaid. The latter will, I feel, probably pay the price for bolstering Labour.
The current economic crisis makes it very difficult to predict how people will vote at next year and in the NAW elections.
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huwblog , you wrote at #11
"The Welsh Assembly is supposed to be administering and running our health and education for which Westminster gives it a hefty devolved budget.
Instead we see WAG indulging in a costly and ill founded attempt at "nation building"."
You are correct, let brynt41 and Co bluster and try to change the subject, the most recent LCO's (Housing and Language) provide the only evidence you need to support your view.
And the WAG has been discovered by Westminster with its fingers in the "nation building" till.
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What do you mean by with its fingers in the nation building till? Are seem to suggest corruption, but then smear is your preferred method of debate.
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fingers in the "nation building" till
means
The WAG is involved in "nation building" and has been discovered.
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Fingers in the till usually refers to financial inpropirety, I suggest you phrase your posts here somewhat better if you don't want to give the wrong impression.
Nation building, is it such a bad thing? Afterall we are a nation, so why not. The National Museum and Galleries of Wales, the National Library, The National Pool, The National Vellodrome ..... we seem to have quite a few of those.
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It is a bad thing where it exercised by stealth, creating an illusion, building a social Ponzi scheme.
Our MPs at Westminster discovered the truth in time, thank you Secretary of State for Wales, and chums.
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I don't see any stealth - government in Wales is very open compared to Westminster.
I am not sure what you think the MPs found - please enlighten us as to what you think was hidden
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Re 20
I don't know whether you're feeling rather embattled, or whether it is just the strain of swimming against the prevalent confident tide of a new democracy that is sweeping Wales at the moment (despite the recession), but you are becoming increasingly negative these days. All the world's ills seem to be the fault of Welsh democracy or the Welsh language. It's wearing thin.
I've made the point before that government in Wales is very open compared to westminster. I'm sure ministers would prefer it otherwise sometimes! So your new bout of paranoia is rather silly. Lyn Thomas has made the point very well here.
Re 20
I don't know whether you're feeling rather embattled, or whether it is just the strain of swimming against the prevalent confident tide of a new democracy that is sweeping Wales at the moment (despite the recession), but you are becoming increasingly negative these days. All the world's ills seem to be the fault of Welsh democracy or the Welsh language. It's wearing thin.
It's a shame you don't answer questions as well.
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Re 22
Apologies for the repeats! I'm not sure what happened there ...
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message 19......
Please explain HOW Wales is a nation?
Just because some fools made serious errors in naming some public institutes 'national' does not mean that should confer 'nationhood' on this region.
As I asked above, please show, under what terms, internationally recognisable Wales can be considered a 'nation'?
No emotive and false patriotic speeches, just plain simple, and factual, parameters will suffice.
No history lessons, you have already demonstrated you can only quote from erudite annals, just plain facts, will do.
Yes, there exists a tune, generally accepted as an anthem for Wales, even a symbolic flag, which I imagine everyone in Wales, especially if of Welsh stock, will nod towards, at sporting and other social events, but that is as far as it can go.
None of which makes this region a Nation.
It's population is too diverse, and disparate, it's demographic homogeneity is splintered, and becoming more so with this language situation, it has nothing beyond that which differentiates it from any other region in the UK.
Rather than have this mish mash of a region formulated into one 'nation, it would be far more sensible to split it across the middle, east to west, north to south, and create four new counties, to approximate those across the rest of Britain.
As for the cry about Britain, or the UK, being too large causing problems, and the remarks about the legal structure of Germany,
A: the UK has no similar written constitution.
B: There are some states in the USA, which legally follows somewhat similar arrangements to Germany, under a Federal system, and which have populations almost as large as the total UK in themselves.
Taking Wales out from under the political and fiscal umbrella of the UK would not alter anything for the mass of our 3 millions, but would cause massive disruption to their commercial and social life.
Also keep in mind, under the terms you nationalist advocates refer to, there would be absolutely nothing preventing, say...
.....the Gwent area, for example, taking your separatist ideas further ,and demanding it too seeks to be independent, from what you possibly could set up.
If you think my assessment is wrong, then.....
.... don't be shy, let us have your version of the status of Wales in the grand scheme of things.
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