Seconds out ...
Just in case you missed The Westminster Hour last night here's round - what shall we call it - five or six in the war of words between former First Secretary Alun Michael and the Presiding Officer Dafydd Elis-Thomas. Somewhere, in the not too distant future, in a Further Education Institution somewhere in Wales, there'll be a student handing in a dissertation on it ... with copious footnotes.
Let me help them with one chapter at least.
Earlier this week a leaked letter from Dafydd Elis-Thomas to Secretary of State Paul Murphy - written "in the spirit of our often-stated agreement to make the constitution of Wales within the UK work" - warned that the time it takes to process LCOs put forward by individual Assembly Members "may soon render the ballot process ineffectual, thus curtailing one of the functions of a legislature that of allowing Members as well as Government Minister or Committees to take through legislation".
In other words, one part of the machinery - he warns - is moving so slowly that soon, another part of it will grind to a halt. And if it's not working properly it will, of course, need an overhaul.
At this point you either accept that the Presiding Officer has seen a problem coming and wants to ensure the system doesn't get clogged up to the point it's deemed to be "ineffectual" - or you spot an agenda.
Alun Michael MP spots an agenda. In fact he spotted one a long, long time ago, before the chapter headed "contrary to the spirit of devolution", or the footnote on the meaning of "micromanaging from Westminster".
This is how he put it on last night's programme on Radio 4:
"This is an accusation that is only really made by one person, which is the Presiding Officer, Dafydd Elis-Thomas who seems to have totally abandoned the normal neutrality that one expects from the speaker or Presiding Officer. I don't understand his motivation. It's a success and it's a success for the Assembly and he should be sharing in that success and I don't really understand why Dafydd Elis-Thomas wants to pretend that there's some antagonism there which there really isn't, unless he has a personal agenda on the issue".
And then this:
"This is the difference between naked nationalism on the part of Dafydd Elis-Thomas and the partnership working that is the absolute essence of devolution".
Naked nationalism on the part of the PO? Since when, ask his office, is wanting to make sure the Government of Wales Act 2006 is interpreted properly on a par with nationalism, naked or otherwise? Well, they didn't quite put it like that but you get the spirit of retaliation.
And just one more footnote for that dissertation. Peter Hain was also interviewed by The Westminster Hour. Listen back and you'll hear him making it clear that he never envisaged that the veto granted to the Secretary of State would be used.
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
© MMX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~57~RS~)
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Alun Michael is quite right to put Dafydd Elis Thomas [and Peter Hain, come to that..] back in his box.
Wales does not have independence, and it never will, so why raise false expectations when no Westminster Government in their right mind is going to want to go down a one way street they won't be able to reverse back from, of 'ever less-close union' between Wales and England ??
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Betsan...Taking your last paragraph , so Hain never envisaged the ..." S of S would use the veto"...
More fool him then, otherwise why have the veto facility there in the first place, if not to actually use it when necessary.
Personally, I hope it is used far more often than just the once on the current LCO.
Mr Hain should really give up politics if he cannot see the holes in the road ahead.
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The Presiding Officer cannot take sides and must remain neutral.
He has to adjudicate without personal or political prejudice on matters relating to the conduct of the Assembly.
It appears his statements and attempts to manipulate the politics of the Assembly and its relationship with Westminster have compromised his position.
He can no longer be considered an impartial leader of the Assembly and should be stripped of his authority in the Assembly.
Time for the NAW to call him to account
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I heard the comment by Alan Michael MP about the redoubtable and completely impartial LORD Dafydd Ellis Thomas and quietly chuckled to myself. It shows that under the surface of Labour (both old and new) there is a detestation and hatred for the NATS and I'm in full support of them. The "deal" between Labour/Welsh Nats in Bay is an unholy pact as was the Hitler/Stalin Non-Aggression Pact in 1939. We know where that ended as will the BAY pact in tears and accrimony. Nobody voted that the Plaido's who want to break up the UK by splitting off Wales into an independant country should get their greasy hands on power. Its a given that as soon as IWJ is out of OFFICE he and his cronies will be saying that they were stopped from curing all the problems of wales by the labour party in cardiff becuse of londons control. It says everything about our Rhodri's weakness that were in this awful position and the quicker he goes and EDWINA takes over to "dish" the Nats the better. Power to the Health Minister who know better how to organize brain surgery in the whole of wales rather than "mere" Brain Surgeons. We need the hand of "firm government" and in Edwina we trust.
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This may be of interest
taken from;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presiding_Officer_of_the_National_Assembly_for_Wales
Quote;
Role of the Presiding Officer.
The main function is to chair plenary sessions of the Assembly, to maintain order and to protect the rights of Members. He or she is responsible for ensuring that business is handled on the basis of equality and impartiality.
The Presiding Officer is also responsible for Standing Orders and is the final authority on their interpretation.
The Presiding Officer also acts as Chair of the National Assembly for Wales Commission, and has special responsibility for promoting democratic engagement, leadership, developing the Assembly’s future legislative powers and external relations
He or she is, along with the Deputy, politically responsible for all aspects of the Presiding Office to which the Standing Orders relate.
I suppose the bit that says "developing the Assembly’s future legislative powers and external relations" he would invoke to excuse his involvement.
Pity he doesn't do a bit more work on "promoting democratic engagement".
Unfortunately allowing democracy to rear its head in Wales would compromise his ambition to make Wales an Indendant State.
Wonder who he has in mind for Head of State.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I can see why the Presiding Officer has to be neutral in the Senedd, i.e. avoid party politicking.
But I would expect him to be wholly biased when it comes to defending the institution as a whole.
The Speaker of any parliament should be jealously watchful that its rights are protected.
Dafydd Elis Thomas is just protecting Welsh democracy from those who would strip us of the little dignity we have secured for ourselves.
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West-Wales, your #5
"Wonder who he has in mind for Head of State."
..... it might be the "faerie King"
http://mymabinogion.blogspot.com/2008/10/morgans-court-and.html
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OK lets see what we have here. The Presiding Officer of the National Assembly for Wales raises with the Secretary of State for Wales a potential problem. As the person charged with the smooth running of the National Assembly surely it is his duty to raise such problems as and when they are seen to arise. The standing orders make it clear that private members can make applications to transfer primary legislative powers to the National Assembly, indeed it is vital for democracy that this process is not monopolised by the government but opened up to all members of the Legislature.
Perhaps the person here with an agenda is Alun Michael, who has had it in for the Presiding Officer from day one. He objected to him having access to independent legal advice and wanted him to share legal staff with the Cabinet. This was an attack on the independence of the Presiding Officer. He objected to the Presiding Officer refusing to accept his resignation when he threw it at him the end of his speech that wound up the debate on the no confidence motion. Since that day Alun Michael has used every opportunity to attack the Presiding Officer. It seems to me that the Presiding Officer has acted entirely within the standing orders and the intent of those orders, and that the person with an axe to grind is the former rejected First Secretary of Wales.
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Message 9.....
All of those two lengthy paragraphs show why, and how, the whole mess of the WAG/Assembly is so much a waste of everyones time and trouble.
We need nothing at all, that relies on such waffle, to operate.
Maybe that is the idea, to fill the various newsstreams with a cloudy barrage of tripe to such an extent, we will all give up and go away, leaving the Bay to spend our limited funds as they will.
No from where I stand however. I will do my best to cause the total termination of the whole sorry saga.
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This comment has been referred to the moderators. Explain.
Message 9...
Apologies to Lyn, it seems I may have written M10 giving the impression what you wrote is a load of waffle, not so,
What was implied was what goes on between those concerned at the Senned,
Although I disagree with some stuff of Lyn's, at least there is no personal attacks insults and adverse rhetoric, from Lyn, most is clearly penned and very lucid in it's content.
That is why I complained about message 11
All that was contained therin was a personal attack, the usual from that person.
Further such messages will also be complained about, until, I succeed in having him removed altogether.
Fair comment and even robust argument is one thing, nasty and personal remarks, something entirely different.
I will not stand for it, nor it seems, will nhe moderators.
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Lyn at 9
"The standing orders make it clear that private members can make applications to transfer primary legislative powers to the National Assembly,"
The problem is of course that the people of Wales were assured in 1997 that further primary powers would only be transferred after electoral consent via a Referendum.
The 2006 Wales Act which was steered through Westminster by Hain clearly broke that promise.
The Referendum was not held because Hain & the Assembly knew the answer was NO.
The current Labour government have form when it comes to keeping promises made to the electorate.
I have no problem with an elected Government making Law or taking unpopular decisions - But constitutional change should only be made if it is set out in the manifestos, within the rules and traditions of our unwritten constitution.
And when a promise is made hold a Referendum on the matter, that promise is upheld.
Anything else is dishonest and immoral.
On that basis I consider it undemocratic and probably illegal when constitutional change is made without reference to the electorate, especially after promising that they would hold a referendum before making the change.
We have a situation here that is fundamentally in breach of the democratic process.
Westminster & the Assembly have broken faith with the people of Wales.
But then the majority of our current crop of politicians seem to be people without honour.
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I am not sure that they were, if you are saying that Alun Michael seems to want to obstruct the gradual transfer of powers then I might be tempted to agree with you. However the National Assembly from day one had some primary legislative power, granted very limited, but it was not an exclusively executive body. Now given that its power was altered with every act of Parliament passed by West Minster it would be absurd to have a referendum every time power was transferred (in either direction). Your recollection seems to be that before any change was made their would be a referendum, that is not mine, I would say that a referendum on tax rasing powers might be reasonable and of course one on independence if we reach that point, but to augment its power to legislate is probably not that greater step. We will have to dissagree on this. Bear in mind that the Richard commission suggested far greater powers and that was predicated on widespread soundings from the people and its conclusion was that a Legislative Parliament had broad support.
The GOWA 2006 is the creature of the Labour party and it is there to avoid splits in the Labour Party... it would seem that it was just a holding measure. I hope that the referendum on the transfer of legislative powers as in the Act will happen soon. When it is won then we can get on with governing Wales for the benefit of the People of Wales.
Huge constitutional changes have happened without referendums, for example the reform of the House of Lords, a new Supreme Court and the Human Rights Act. None of these seemed to have sparked a Referendum but all are fundamental.
How far we go down the road has to be scene. I imagine the National Assembly will gain legislative competence fully within the agreed spheres, and these will be gradually augmented by Act of Parliament. I would imagine after the 2011 referendum the "thresh holds" would be if the Assembly wanted to gain powers of general taxation or competence over the criminal law.
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West-Wales mentions constitutional change. Many of us were disgusted that after such an emphatic NO to devolution in the first referendum, there was no "safety margin" element in the extremely close 2nd. referendum which was 'won' on a 0.06% majority.
It was not a (relatively) simple general election, it was to make major constitutional changes. There should have been at least a 10% minimum 'win margin' to secure change, as is normally the case in these type of contests.
Not to worry though, as the third (and I hope final) YES/NO referendum cannot be too far away.
Many tears in The Plaido camp ?
How sad.
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The current LCO system is extremely complex both in terms of legality and consultation, to an extent that it will inevitably create a backlog. I believe that it is crucial for individual members have the opportunity to put forward their own proposals and from what I can see, the Presiding Officer has made a perfectly valid point that they have not a hope in hell of doing so.
Maybe, there is a way of making the system simpler in the short term, without triggering a referendum for the purpose?
Whatever the solution, his point is valid and Alun Michael's accusation is a little over the top. Mind you, this is the man who recently boasted in a letter to his constituents that the Chancellor had done a wonderful thing by cutting VAT- a cut that has made no difference to Wales other than cutting between £290-£500 Million from our public services next year.
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Lyn_Thomas,
You might like to run your last past Prime Minister Cameron in a year or so.
That is .....
"if the Assembly wanted to gain powers of general taxation or competence over the criminal law. "
There's an oxymoron in there .....
"Assembly" and "Competence"
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Re 12
This really is very funny. The man who has called me an 'idiot' feeling affronted by a comment of mine questioning his ability to comprehend an intelligent contribution from Lyn Thomas!
The same man who's contributions on here are very often offensive rants - be they against patriotic Welsh people, or, more recently, Muslims (these contributions can all be seen here still). But, unlike mapexx, I don't believe in censorship, and wouldn't think of sending his comments to mods.
mapexx's philosophy clearly is :
"Further such messages will also be complained about, until, I succeed in having him removed altogether."
As mapexx's contribution in 12 doesn't address the original topic on this thread either, I trust that this one will be left alone!
What are you scared of?
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One of the major issues with the LCO process is that it takes years to agree a text, with Whitehall trying to restrict the scope of each one, then it would appear MPs also want to do the same. This means that it takes about 2 years for all but the least controversial LCO to pass. The to pass a Welsh Law you probably need another 6 months to a year. This means that any future Welsh Government has to cram its legislative program into 18 months at the most. This does not make for good governance. As LCOs do not transfer whole subject areas we are left with a complex "lace doily" of legislative competence. Its a mine field with the only benefit being for lawyers.
The fault again lies with the Labour Party. Ron Davies steered though the bill and got the best he could given his own party's divisions.
It would have been different if we had a proper convention operating in Wales, as the Liberal Democrats, The Churches and Plaid Cymru offered, then there might have been more of a consensus on devolution and we could have had the clear cut situation of reserved functions for Westminster and general competence on the Scottish model. Unfortunately Labour would not play ball and took it upon its self to claim to represent Welsh Opinion, they stated that there was not a sufficiently developed civil society in Wales to organise a convention on the Scottish model.
Hopefully we can move forward. Despite the protestations of groups like True Wales, I feel that the All Wales Convention is a body that can get people to discuss the issues and display what is on offer - not as a propaganda body but as a body providing a forum for discussion and giving quality information so people can understand what is on offer and what we have already.
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Betsan: "Listen back and you'll hear him (Peter Hain) making it clear that he never envisaged that the veto granted to the Secretary of State would be used."
So, the ability to suspend the right to buy is included in the LCO, though the Assembly government claim that it will never be invoked.
Seems fair then to include a veto that will also never be invoked.
This whole post makes it look as though the people who thought of the system are the kind of people who might think that Aneurin Glyndwr is a balanced and well thought out website.....
...
Oh!
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What Government delivered devolution to Wales - Labour Government
Not Plaid, Conservatives or Liberals
What Government introduced the Government of Wales Act 2006? - Labour Party Illegally in my opinion.
Not Plaid, Tories or Liberals.
What Government has the powers to improve education for the learners of Wales?
What Government has the powers to ensure we do not spend a minimum of 4 hours in A&E?
What Government has the powers to ensure the people of Wales can get an ambulance in less than 4 hours in an emergency?
What Government ensures that not one community first area leaves the programme after 10 years of funding?
What Government puts money into the Heads of the Valley Programme to help the poorest areas of Wales and then stops the dualling of the heads of the valley road which would without doubt become the valleys commercial lifeline.
Which Government subsidises an air service and train service between north and south but won't subsidise services in poor areas?
Which Government sent 77 million pounds back to Europe?
Which Government has made a mess of convergence funding?
Which Government thinks investing in the wealth creators, the private sector is a dirty deed?
Which Government ensured Wales become a public sector country?
WELSH ASSEMBLY GOVERNMENT
Would any person without their snouts in the trough or separatist intentions reward such failure with more powers. I hope not.
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If the All Wales Convention is not a propagandist organisation why does its latest radio commercial unashamedly state: ‘We would like to hear your views on HOW the Assembly gets more law-making powers’. I think we should be told.
If talk of sweetie jars and coffee urns is 'quality information', then I really do despair.
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21 & 22,
Your alternative being ?
No system of democray is all bad, so I hope that it's not taken as too negatively by suggesting that you are being a little subjective and even perhaps slightly cynical at times?
It's nothing personal.
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What was happening before Plaid Cymru hopped into bed with the Labour Party, I just don't remember problems.
Now we have issues, and it seems the only issue is the speed by which legislation can be created, and who makes the most noise, Plaid Cymru.
And look at the legislation causing the greatest noise, the issues closest to the heart of Plaid Cymru, the issues that would begin the process of breaking up the United Kingdom.
The alternative ianapharri is for the Assembly to revert to how it worked before this unholy alliance was spawned.
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No to Nationalism (22). "If the All Wales Convention is not a propagandist organisation why does its latest radio commercial to unashamedly state: ?We would like to hear your views on HOW the Assembly gets more law-making powers?. I think we should be told."
How about because that is what the next referendum is about. Do we want the present system of transfer - piecemeal, bit by bit on an 'ask and you might get' basis within a narrow field, or a new system whereby all the powers within the same narrow field are transferred instantly to be used or not used without having to spend 2-5 years begging, negotiating, etc with the British administration before the assembly can even think about using the powers.
The propaganda in this case, I'm afraid, comes from the 'powers or no powers', 'rule from London or full independence' message fo the likes of (un)True Wales.
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stonemason (24)
There was no problem with the GOWA before Plaid joined the government?
Hmm, timeline.
GOWA 2006.
Plaid become part of the administration in 2007.
I wonder which event is causing the problems here?
And those issues which will lead to the break up of the UK? Equality for a national minority (a European legal obligation) and the ability people to afford to live in their communities. If thats going to break up the union then maybe there's a problem with the union...
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message 26......
Under the terms laid down by the European Union equality for a 'national' minority does not apply here for the simple reason Wales is NOT a nation under such terms.
A very large proportion of the population of this region are quite happy being British, with a Welsh regional attachment.
As for the way Wales was being run, virtually problem free before the involvement of the Assembly/WAG, that is where we should now return, only leaving all the day to day management to local authority.
Do away with a tier of unnecessary governance.
Rather simplistic I know, but the simple things in life, after centuries of experience and practice, usually turn out to be the best.
What IS causing the problems here IS the Assembly/WAG being there at all.
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I have changed my view on the Assembly/Independance and am joining Plaid Cymru with immediate effect. (if they'll have me).Having seen the arrival of President of USA in his own jet (three of them) and then transfer to two helicopters for short flight it created a good impression about wealth and power of USA. Without independance Wales is just a "bit"player in world affairs as part of UK but as an independant and sovereign country we would have representation in world events on our own. After independance by throwing of the "yolk" of english dominance and their raping and pillaging of villages in last six months and their "corrupting" our culture by giving us all that money we would be able to "bestride" the world. Clearly we would need a PRESIDENT (Bi-Lingual of course) and with our current experience of "subsidising trains and planes its going to be easy to provide presidential plane and train to give proper "gravitas" to the position. Let us say IWJ or RM (recognition for creating atmosphere for full independance) became president any visit to London would have the Obama effect and with full SKY/BBC coverage wales would be seen around the world as free, independant,confidant ( in two languages) and play its full part in sorting out the economies/conflict resolution/environment etc etc. How would we pay for the trains/planes then thats easy we turn the whole of wales into a "community first project" and get those stupid english/german tax payers to fund us through european convergance grants.SORTED and everybodies happy in LA LA land.
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24,
The current legislation that created LCO's was all from Labour policy and had nothing to do with Plaid or any other party. Consequently, its limitations having little to do with Plaid.
Prior to the current coalition, WAG had significantly greater budgets from London, even without matched funding for Objective One. From my viewpoint, the current coalition is far more radical than any previous Assembly Govt, even without the funds.
27,
We have had this debate before and I see no evidence at all that Local Government is capable of taking on powers handed down to the Assembly from London. However, we are facing an inevitable reduction in Councils, as with budgets getting tighter by the month, 22 Councils is simply not affordable. Mind you, what a political suicide note for the politician to make that decision and how can it be done without creating a local democratic deficit?
Any thoughts?
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Re 26
Sorry Stonemason, you can't get away with that! You've not mentioned anything that WAG has ever got right. Plaid understand that there's a problem, and are trying to do something about it. Surely, that's a good thing.
But, then, it seems to me that your pathological hatred of Plaid and any notion of Welsh patriotism, based purely on prejudice - based on what, only you can tell - blinds you in all these matters.
Perhaps I'll see you in the game tonight - another visit to the Capital more in hope than anything else; as was Saturday. It's about keeping the faith!
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Mappex 27
"Under the terms laid down by the European Union equality for a 'national' minority does not apply here for the simple reason Wales is NOT a nation under such terms."
Regrettably you appear to have read a different definition of "national minority" to me. Or is it just that you jump to negative conclusions as soon as you see the word 'national' as referring to anything Welsh?
According to European (and UN) definitions, adherents of the Welsh language and culture are a national minority within the UK, as are Bretons in France, Catalans in Spain and even the longstanding Hungarian speaking minorities in the south of Slovakia. However your point is not relevant to my argument.
What is relevant is the fact that the Welsh speaking minority is protected by European and international law, and that governments are obliged by said laws to promote and protect equality. Adherence to this law is, according to Stonemason, about to rip the United Kingdom asunder. I ask, does that not say more about the UK than about any political party or body within it?
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message 31....
There you are making the very big mistake, I accept that the Cymraeg speaking minority may well be 'protected' under EU rules.
It is not a 'national' minority, just a few out of the three millions who reside in Wales.
No one is saying those who speak the language, or the language itself, should not be given 'equality'.
However, as you have yet to understand, that minority a nation do not make. Try reading through the message you sent in, you make my case for me.
That is it as far as I am concerned, there is no more argument to be made.
End of.
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"No one is saying ...(that) the language itself, should not be given 'equality'."
Have you read some of the posts on the subject?
More to the point, Stonemason specifically says that the subjects in which Plaid Cymru are interested, from which I can only assume he means the languaeg and housing LCOs, are about to rip the UK apart.
Again I ask, if equality for the Welsh language (which you yourself purport to br infavour of now), and an attempt to allow people to live on their own communities despite external pressures, is going to rip the UK apart, what does that say about the UK?
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message 29....
I can see the point you make, and to a degree I agree with it, yes there are too many councils, just as WAS the case across te divide, but this morning the announcement came that some dozens of local authorities are being merged as from today.
Now should we get shot of some of those 22 you metion, what price the Assembly?.
If the region is divided in to... . say... ten or even less, why would we then need this lot in the Bay.
Those over in England, which are being merged today, will deal directly with London, why do we need another set up in Cardiff, after all, it will be an extra and superfluous costly burden, as it is at present, on top of those potential merged Welsh councils, whatever the final number is likely to be.
According to spokespersons from the government, it's all to do with economy of scale.
Mind you we heard that once before in 1974 when the government of the day did the same with Monmouthshire, as it became Gwent.
So if it's economy they are after, a great saving would be made by dispensing with the Assembly/WAG as not required, purely on a cost basis, if nothing else.
One thing or the other, BUT NOT BOTH!.
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Yes, Just1nD (25) - exactly. This is entirely undemocratic and unconstitutional. It is incredible that the Government of Wales Act wasn't put to the people in a referendum. It's time that the political elite understood that when they implement fundamental constitutional changes, the people must be consulted.
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Maybe I am being simple here.
I happen to think that my fellow Welshmen are intelligent and able people who are more than able to make decisions for themselves and find solutions for their specific problems themselves.
Why is that there are so many people living in Wales who think so little of the abilities, skills, and intellegience of themselves and their fellow Welshmen/women that they feel we can't run our own affairs?
Do thes people ever leave home? Or do they still rely on their parents to buy their clothes, and food and wipe their noses for them.
The current system is a shambles. Why the heck do we need approval for making decisions.
2 years , 2 YEARS! we waited for a smoking ban because unlike Scotland we couldn't legislate but had to wait for the English to get their act together. How many lives lost?
Believe in yourselves people. Cut the apron strings and soar.
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message 25......
You cast aspersions by saying (un)True Wales.
Please write out all the perceived lies that my organisation have stated.
I will be very patient, as I know for a fact you will be hard put to find anything stated by True Wales that is a lie. We do not even slightly bend the truth.
In that we are unique in Wales, unlike Plaid and other nationalist bodies, including the AWC, which despite the denials IS a promoting body FOR full powers to the Assembly/WAG. And to whose meeting I shall be in attendance this evening in Cwmbran.
Where is the referendum we were promised, another lie, or at least, a definite bending of the veracity of the matter.
The way the WAG/Assembly, it's individual members, and all party persona, tells the story is confusing, wrapped up in garbled rhetoric, with the political tripe switch in the full on position.
But some of us can read that garbage and we recognise when we are being shafted,
The unfortunate thing is many of those in favour of further powers, are also getting the shaft as well, but cannot rationally see that is the case, and so stick with the idea that some day soon Wales will be cast adrift, from the UK.
AS stated before, here and elsewhere,...
...not on my watch it won't.
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Just1nD at #31 wrote:
" ...... is going to rip the UK apart, what does that say about the UK?"
..... It says that Wales and England are inextricably linked through the constitution, when the Welsh Assembly Government creates legislation that applies only to Wales, a difference is created. Create sufficient differences the constitutional link becomes weaker, at the moment, by the skin of its teeth, things are being held together by scrutiny at Westminster.
The granting of additional powers will place in the hands of politicians, who are intent on separation, the tools to achieve their ends. There is no in-between.
FiDafydd, your #30 wrote:
Re 26 (did you mean 24)
Your ..... "Sorry Stonemason, you can't get away with that! You've not mentioned anything that WAG has ever got right."
The gradual process by which prescription charges eventually became non-chargeable by the pharmacist. The Labour Party did well, so well it's being adopted everywhere in the UK.
Your ..... "But, then, it seems to me that your pathological hatred of Plaid ..."
Pathological hatred is a tad strong, but why would you not expect a Unionist to fight against the destruction of the United Kingdom. My father did similar in the past, whilst I am not calling you fascist today, Plaid that is, AH had his heart set on a similar outcome.
Your ..... "any notion of Welsh patriotism,"
It is insulting don't you think?
I hope you enjoy the match, I have "GCSE History" revision tonight, not getting out much these days.
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Stonemason 38
"The granting of additional powers will place in the hands of politicians, who are intent on separation, the tools to achieve their ends. There is no in-between."
An awful lot of Britain's top political minds are too stupid to see what is so obvious to you...
It seems a pity that a split from England would become unavoidable just because we are attempting to achieve equality and social justice here.
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Just1nD,
If there is a need for equality and social justice in Wales, or any other issue, by definition those same needs would exist in every component part of the United Kingdom ...., England, N.I. and Scotland alongside Wales. There is no difference in the social conditions of people wherever they live and work in the UK, when you examine people by social-economic criteria.
So just as Welsh politicians have travelled to Westminster to right a wrong, our own David Lloyd George who introduced state financial support for the sick and infirm, politicians from other parts did similar, the Earl of Shaftesbury for example introduced many acts of parliament to regulate for the better the working lives of people.
The common denominator is the outcome of both examples were applied evenly to all the people of the UK, no-one is saying that the lives of people is perfect. In Wales, quite recently the WAG introduced legislation that was mostly neutral to the constitution, free prescriptions, this has now spread to every component part of the UK. A perfect example of how to make the lives of the whole UK better from Cardiff Bay.
I am not sure about your second paragraph, it can be read in two ways ....
I thought it might be an insult, to me or Westminster is the question .....
Your last "It seems a pity......"
I agree, if a political component of the Welsh political scene did not have "Independence" as its goal I think Betsan's blog would have quite a different tone.
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Independence isn't on offer, three quarters of AMs represent unionist parties and positions, there is no way that we will somehow slide into independence. The True Wales position is based on a tissue of lies. It is difficult to distinguish between it and spoofs of it, aguments like a Welsh hounours system shows that Labour and Plaid are plotting to make Wales independent are laughable.
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message 41.....
As I asked for and got no reply from another blogger on this board, I now ask you Lyn_Thomas...
What are the lies being put about by True Wales?
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That there is a conspiracy within the Welsh Government to create an independent Wales. That proof of this is a Welsh honours system. That the All Wales convention is a propaganda exercise to get a yes vote... want me to go on?
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message 43.
Go on as much as you like, but it is you that is making allegations, ...
... now prove they are true.
As I see it, apart from the' honours system' bit, which I know nothing about, as I dispensed with what bit I saw, as garbage,
there is a covert agenda, but which gets an occasional airing. as it did last week by a Plaid Cymru AM, for a independent Wales.
I went to the AWC meeting last night in Torfaen, I could only attend for the first half hour due to another committment, but from the chairmans opening remarks, I thought he protested far too much regarding the purpose of the meeting, and the AWC.
Considering the feeling of the assembled number, as mentioned on BBC news pages, it would seem True Wales, of which organisation there were about five out of the fifty odd in attendance, were supported, in general terms, by the majoitiy of those who attended.
The chair went to great lengths to stress how his 'Convention' was neutral, but then refused toaccept questions re the devolvement of further powers to the Assembly, claiming it ito be beyond his remit.
Strange that, considering you claim our statements are lies, surely he should have had the balls to take our 'lies' and disprove them in the face of his public gathering. Our members in attendance gave him ample opportunity.
Please do not keep harping on about these matters, because all you are doing is digging yourself into a hole.
If you wish to list yet more 'lies', as long as you can utterly destroy our case, by FACTS, then don't let me hold you up, go ahead, but be dead certain we cannot reflect your claims back at you.
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Well it is up to True Wales to prove that there is a conspiracy, they make the allegation not me, proof by assertion is not proof and it is True Wales not me that is making that claim. They offer no such proof.
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message 45....
I refer you to the BBC news of this morning.
Therein lies proof enough.
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What are you referring to? You need to do more than that.
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message 47, ...
Sorry I do not do your research for you, I point you in the direction, then it's up to you to plod the path.
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Re 48
There was nothing there, Lyn bach. Nothing.
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message 49....
Lyn does not need her nose wiping by a runt, She can look after herself, and does so quite adequately.
And it is you who says others cannot debate, is it any wonder you get slammed, when you cannot keep your interfering nose out.
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Re 50
mapexx,
Did your horse fall at the first today by any chance? Even by your standards, you're very touchy this evening ...
Lyn is right however, you do make these claims all the time with nothing to back them up.
By the way, did you see that wonderful young choir from Cwmbran on television? A credit t the town and to Welsh language education.
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One small thing, my gender is male :-)
I didn't see anything on the news suggesting the uncovering of a plot where the One Wales government was planning an independent Wales. Plaid is open that it wants, as a long term aim, independence, which would be specifically voted for by the Welsh people via a referendum. I see no members of Labour agreeing with this.
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message 52....
Sorry about the 'gendre' error, but I think I followed someone else who made a similar comment.... anyway...
It was stated that there was no truth in the claim by True Wales that there was a covert move for Wales to be heading for independence,
True Wales made such a claim because we had been given information that recenmtly, despite your antipathy to our claim, has now been brought in to the open by Plaid members themselves.
I note with interest that whenever certain types of info is issued on BBC sites, including the Ceefax pages on the TV, those are slotted in, almost casually, and stay on the pages for a very short time.
Anyway, I can tell you whatever has been denied, in the past, by Plaid, and others, recent announcements have revealed that TW was correct.
Below is an extract from the report by the rural affairs spokesperson at a meeting in Newport last week.
......."Though the purpose of my visit to the European Council of Ministers was not to confirm my faith in independence - as a member of Plaid Cymru, that was the result."
As part of the deal which led to the coalition, Plaid wants a referendum on turning the Welsh assembly into a parliament by 2011.
However, many within Plaid will welcome this reinforcement by one of its government ministers that independence is the party's ultimate aim. "......
....Should Plaid become a power in the Assembly, rather than a coalition partner, that is where we are heading it would seem,
That is what TW is on about.
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message 52.....
What have you to say about the matter of the Rowntree donation to 'Wales Tomorrow'
But WT is in good company, if nothing else, considering the same outfit also funds the militant Prostitutes.
Much of a muchness, I think.
Both out to screw the public.
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