"A growing maturity?"
[Apologies that this entry is a day late appearing. All BBC blogs were struck by technical problems yesterday - now resolved.]
So the pollsters didn't call you then?
Had the polling company, ICM, who conducted the annual St David's Day poll for BBC Wales give been given the numbers of most of those who leave comments on this blog, then there's not much doubt what the result of the final question would have looked like. It would have looked very, very different, that's what.
What question? This one:
To what extent do you agree or disagree with the following statement? "There is a need to create new laws to help promote the Welsh language and also to ensure that Welsh speakers have more opportunities to use the language when using some services".
A thousand people were asked. 47% agreed there was a need to create new laws; 29% disagreed, 23% neither agreed nor disagreed and 1% didn't know. In other (carefully-chosen) words, the poll suggests that nearly half of us support the need to create new laws to promote and encourage the Welsh language.
The Culture Minister has just told Radio Wales this is a sign of "a growing maturity" and suggests the people are way ahead than "some politicians" where their attitude to the Welsh language is concerned.
The question doesn't refer to private businesses who provide a public service. It doesn't use the word "force" or "compel". What it does, of course, is reflect the wording of the LCO, the bid for power to legislate over the language that the Welsh Assembly Government launched recently.
We know that the wording of that LCO, as the Secretary of State Paul Murphy put it, is not "set in stone". During the the St David's Day debate in the House of Commons last Thursday he urged MPs to galvanise their constituents into "having their say on the proposals. I want to see the biggest public debate on the Welsh language of recent years". He wants that debate, he says, precisely so that the goodwill that exists towards the language isn't squandered.
That debate will ask people their views on a detailed, three page document. The poll question couldn't and didn't. But what it does seem to show is that goodwill towards the language not only exists but survives the inclusion of those words "create new laws".
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~05~RS~)
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Here we go.... Anybody from another country would think we talk about nothing else in Wales!
Hang on a minute... they'd be right :)
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As an Anglo-Welshman I love the Welsh language and the best thing I ever did was learn it. It made life so much more interesting.
I think that the goodwill exists because most people recognise that the language is an important part of our history and our future. Its something to share and cherish, not to squabble over.
But it has to be looked after as well. It future cannot be left to chance.
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Its this sort of nonsense that has forced me to decide that I must raise funds to move to England - and quickly.
I feel it is very sad that the majority of Welsh people have given in the demands of a small, but violently vocal, few. I refuse to stay here and be viewed as somehow culturally deficient by valley-folk. I consider being turned down for government jobs on the basis of speaking English truly sickening. I do not deserve to be treated like a second class citizen and wont be - I'll leave instead. Many countries are concerned about brain-drain. I imagine Wales will soon see a mass brain-evacuation.
Of course - the people in charge wont care - it will free up more of the top jobs for welsh-speaking people. Why provide a quality public service when you can provide a sub-standard bilingual one and then bully people into supporting it!?!?
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Re 1
It's all YOU talk about Cardiffian! But, I'm glad to say that here is further proof that you are out of touch with the Welsh nation on this also.
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There are a variety of problems regarding the Welsh language, it is completely usless outside Wales and not much better inside. Unless of course you wish to work for the WAG or a council, in which case it's compulsory, (unless you are related or friendly with people already working there).
We spend eye - watering amounts of money on bi-lingualism to translate to people who can already spreak English and a vast amount of cash is wasted on bi-lingual road signs that would be far better spent on an efficiant and civilized A & E and Abulance service to replace the abismal service provided by the WAG.
But for me, and i suspect the vast majority of people in Wales, the biggest problem with the Welsh language is that it is driven by Nationalist. They have now hi-jacked our children who spend wasted hours when they could be learning something that will make them a living in that big wide world out there. They don't want any form of referendum on the right of either councils or individuals to opt out of the language and the terrible waste of bi-lingual mailouts because they know they will lose. And furthermore, i think many people deeply resent being made to feel second class by Nationalists who think you cannot be Welsh and proud if you are not one of them and you don't want to speak their language.
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Fidafydd,
Granted all I talk about on this blog is the two somewhat interlinked subjects of language and independence as it appears very little else is discussed. Just goes to show that there cant be many real people here because if there were then there would certainly be a wider range of more pressing issues being discussed.
Now seeing as you have immediately singled me out and attacked me for making a joke, I would like to assure you the two aforementioned subjects are of very little relevance to me outside of this blog... unlike you and some others here who I should imagine spend all their spare time on Cymdeithas yr Iaith rally marches and vandalising their local high street with the slogan "Cymraeg??"
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Re 3
More chips than Harry Ramsden, more paranoia than McCarthy! By the sound of it, you might feel very much at home in Montana ...
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I live near Lampeter, a predominantly Welsh speaking town where at least greetings are usually in Welsh. I am in favour in general about the promotion of the Welsh language throughout Wales on an equal footing with English. I do, however have some concerns. To start with, in the Welsh Assembly debate on the issue of equality, the English Language was notable by its absence other than in translation. Secondly, as a business person I only produce Welsh language material when it is appropriate, i.e. for Welsh speaking people. It actually puts customers outside Wales off when I send them dual language literature. The English in particular have a very bad attitude towards the language.
Thirdly, If we are to have official recognition of the equality of the two languages, there has to be a 'quid pro quo'. The Welsh National Eisteddfod should be a celebration of both languages!
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This poll shows what I have always known - that despite what some of the xenophobic multi-posters that pollute this site would have you believe, there is a large amount of goodwill among English speakers towards the Welsh language.
Long may it continue
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I don't know what's become of the Wales I once knew. I grew up in a Welsh speaking home ( but don't speak Welsh much myself ) and have a great affection for the mangled Welsh my mother speaks. As a tax payer I'm happy to fund Welsh language education, S4C, Radio Cymru, road signs and night classes etc, but only in the name of preservation and support of the existing language base.
I do not favour promotion of the language because promotion can so quickly mutate into a form of compulsion or necessity. For example, we see parents who don't give a hoot about the language pack their kids off to Welsh medium schools; we see jobs advertised that require Welsh speaking candidates, yet, when the successful applicant takes their post they end up working largely in the medium of English and get the ‘translation unit’ to write Welsh that an articulate fourteen year old should be able to manage.
Gwyn Williams once asked, "When was Wales?" We could further ask where is Wales, what is Wales, what will Wales be? It seems to me that Wales is a fiction, a collection of myths being welded into a coherent, but ultimately contrived solidity. My nephews and nieces speak Welsh in school, but ditch it the moment they come home. All the "best" music, literature, drama and entertainment is in English. Welsh has become nothing more than a "transferable skill" in much of Wales. As I child I spoke English, but called my brother "brawd", I played in old industrial ruins and knew nothing of Glyndwr. That is my Wales, what is yours? Who was more Welsh, the younger me or my Hannah Montana fixated nephews and nieces?
Wake up people of Wales and don't let anyone tell you what it means to be you. And, if you have aspirations for yourself or your children, real aspirations, not a cushy non-job in a quango or the like, spend time to become more creative, more knowledgeable. I for one will steer my children from Welsh medium education because the world is tough, they need to spend all their time and more ‘skilling’ up for the future.
In conclusion, I heard it said during one of the autumn rugby internationals in a local pub –“In twenty years time everyone will speak Welsh, but there won’t be a Welshman in sight.”
p.s. Don't get me started on the issue of the hard sell many pregnant women experience with regards bringing their future children up in Welsh.
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In the words of the late and GREAT Welsh historian, Prof. Gwyn Alf Williams..."Those who the Gods wish to destroy, they give a laguage question." - ("When Was Wales")
There are many of us who argued for, and fully supported, devolution in 1997 in the hope that it would bring better (decentralised/fullyaccountable) government post Thatcher, post Nolan ...NOT as part of some half-baked reactionary nationalist "small nation building" project. (Hey, see "The Latvian Tiger!". WE were assured it was not. Oh, again and again...
Once the spin and rhetoric is stripped away, this is surely what we have now got? A political medoicrity with an obsession with Welsh Kulture and its courtier/ kampf's advancement. The Welsh economy, what there is of it, goes over the cliff and the Pontcanna political class is yet again fully up its own.... with "the language". Just how many sub-prime jobs are at risk on "Pobyl Y Cwm"?
As James Baldwin said..."The fire next time"...
CAN'T WAIT.
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Thousands of us are forced to speak a second language in our own country every day of the year.
To use SionCornnery's words - it is a "form of compulsion or necessity".
That is not an opinion, just a fact.
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Hi DanDydin,
You said, "Thousands of us are forced to speak a second language in our own country every day of the year." I'm sorry you feel like that, but sometimes I feel like that too, and I suspect, as time rolls by, the feelings of alienation will grow on both sides.
You're point strikes at the heart of the debate which is, what is Wales? I am Welsh and the language of my Wales is English. I'm sorry, but as far as I'm concerned Welsh is not the language of Wales. Most people in Wales feel this way too ( apart from when they get all bleary eyed and unrealistically sentimental).
You feel differently, and understandably so. I have no qualms with subsidising Welsh language cultural activities, Welsh language education or Welsh language service provision in predominantly Welsh speaking areas. However, we are currently undergoing social and cultural engineering in English speaking heartlands, creating that which never was - a united Welsh speaking Wales.
I have lost family members prematurely due to NHS under funding. As far as I'm concerned, the Welsh language in the cold light of day, is not worth one life. No language is. Language is the means by which we communicate, it's not interesting in itself, it's what we have to say that matters.
Where does the promotion of language begin and end? Should we resurrect the nearly dead but beautiful dialects of Radnorshire with their "tolents" and "umpty tumps"? What about Wenglish or Welsh Romani? Are we such blind fascists that land now equals language?
Wales is a largely arbitrary line drawn on a map. There is no homogenous Wales. If you love your community stay within it and make it strong. If there is no work, try and create it, if there is no culture, create and stage it yourself. Little by little there will be growth. Welsh has largely died because of the neglect of Welsh speakers, who, seeing greater potential in English have decided not to pass it on to their children. It never ceases to amaze me how many nationalists I known who live in London!
They acted this way for their own reasons and none of use can judge. If you love your language feed it organically not legislatively. Write some stories or poems or songs, start up an evening class in IT for Welsh speakers, show the world why Welsh matters. Do something real, not plastic and fake!
I recently enrolled on a creative writing university course in Wales. I'd say 80% of the students are English. Why? I think we in Wales have got lazy, we want quick fixes, we want to feed ( or be force fed ) out of the hands of others. You will not create a vibrant Welsh language culture by forcing the majority to learn the language in a cold, calculated way, with both eyes firmly fixed on the public sector job market.
But remember also, adapt or die. I look forward to seeing what global English culture will one day mutate into.
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Fantastic post SionCornnery.
I am interested to see what will be the response of DanDydin after you have taken so much time to reason with him.
Maybe my post number1 was too harsh. Maybe you can cover some new ground
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I think the Government are going about this the wrong way, or at least too quickly. Ii think more patience is needed, not necessarily to gauge opinion but in the implementation of Welsh Language Policy.
It seems that all is needed to create a bi-lingual Wales is to just get them early. Remove the choice whether to learn Welsh or not and all you have to do then is wait a generation and you don't have to legislate for it - Most people will be able to use it and a fuss won't be kicked when Welsh documents are requested or things are only available in English.
I also want to ask everyone 'What does bilingualism mean?"
1. Is it that everyone in Wales should be able to speak both languages?
2. Is it that two languages have equal footing? If this is the case is it equal that you cannot apply for some jobs if you can't speak Welsh? Equally the same if you can only get information in English?
3. Or is it that everyone has the freedom to communicate in whatever language they wish and that society should be able to adapt - if you speak English or Welsh it shouldn't impact how or where you work?
It seems to me that at the moment Wales is Bilingual in name only. Whether you like it or not we either have to accept that Welsh will be given more prominent treatment in certain sectors until everyone can speak it (years surely?) or perhaps look at what we mean by bilingual.
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Positive results from the poll, but I just feel it distracts from the wider issues. Paul Murphy is calling for the Welsh public to be "galvanised" into debating the issue. Maybe he hasn't noticed that the public have been debating the issue for the last 40 years! We don't need the sanction of Labour dinosaurs to debate our own language.
Note that he is not calling for the public to be "galvanised" into debating the wider issue - lawmaking powers for the Welsh Assembly.
And this is where we come to the nub of what the LCO system is really about. It's about "legislative trench warfare" waged by the Unionist Diehards in the New Tory Party.
Bog pro-devolutionists down in a debate about legal minutiae when we should be looking at a system which addresses a whole range of issues, of which the Welsh language is just one part.
This is Labour at their most devious and slimy. Playing games with the Welsh electorate while our economy burns.
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Hi seinfeldvision,
You said, “just get them early. Remove the choice whether to learn Welsh or not and all you have to do then is wait a generation and you don't have to legislate for it”
I really can’t believe what I’m reading. So, the 80% of the population of Wales who speak only English well, and the 98% of the UK population who don’t speak Welsh yet subsidize our economy to the hilt, should have no say in what language their children should be taught in? Is this what you are saying? I don’t think many monoglot English speakers in Wales resent for a second Welsh speaking communities and families sending their children to Welsh medium schools, likewise, Welsh speakers should not resent or hinder English speakers sending their children to English medium schools.
Promoting the Welsh language should not be a “revenge mission”, righting the wrongs of the Welsh Not and other injustices. Eliminating choice is the ultimate act of fascism. The peoples of Wales, be they Welsh or English speaking, should have the choice of which language their children should be educated in. The state should not decide, the masses should not decide – only the parents and the practical logistics of each individual case should decide. Although I am not a fan of Welsh language culture/politics I uphold everyone’s right to practice it
There has been a lot of good work over the years saving the Welsh language and I applaud it. What I and many others are concerned about is the pendulum swinging too far the other way, whereby the English speaking majority get marginalized or penalized or feel forced into learning Welsh when most of us ( especially in the current economic climate ) could do with investing in skills for an imminent future that cares nothing for minority languages.
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SionConnery,
I'm suprised by your response - I should've said that I only speak English also. I myself have no desire to learn Welsh but that is my choice. I guess i'm playing a kind of advocate - It was a rhetorical question.
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The "question" is liking asking people if they support "motherhood" and aple pie and wish laws to be promulgated to enforce these concepts. As an english only speaker and am perfectly happy dealing with the world through that language I have no great interest in the welsh language and do not wish it to be shoved to prominence where it aint needed. I do accept that a sizeable part of welsh people do speak "welsh"and clearly wish it to continue and prosper and they are perfectly entitled to do so in a democracy. The real question is when welsh speaking becomes a vehicle for people who are fluent in that language to so order the world (in little wales) to their advantage over the majority who do not speak welsh. I wonder what the response would be if the question was "should welsh speakers get jobs in front of your children who are english only speaking where its not absolutely necessary".There can be no doubt that the welsh speaking intelligentsia have created an almost perfect world for themselves in little wales with the "stranglehood" over public policy regarding expenditure on the language and the "jobs" for the boys/girls in public service broadcasting etc etc.The fact is that there are many people who quite frankly dont give a damn about the welsh language as they have managed perfectly adequate lives with out it,however nobody on the "gravy train " has the guts to speak out on this subject. If I wish to watch tennis on television then other than Wimbledon time I have to pay for SKY and am happy,however why should I pay taxes to subsidise S4C for welsh speakers. Let it be made acommercial station and people who want it can pay for it,rather than the burden be on general taxation. In conclusion the insiduous drive by NATS and fellow travellers is forcing wales down a cul de sac of isolation/irrelevance but as long as the english continue to subsidise us theres plenty of cash for the pet schemes.
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Cardiffian2008
see you still like making jokes but can't take them.
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Re. 13 - SionCornnery wrote: "but sometimes I feel like that too".
Could you elaborate SionCornnery? Could you give examples of when on a daily basis you are forced to speak a second language?
Re. 19 - Could you give examples, Snoutsintrough, of jobs (specifying adverts on the web as evidence) being advertised where they ask for Welsh speakers only when the job does not require it and is not based in a Welsh speaking area?
If you both could share such examples it would inform our debate and enable further challenge.
Thanks
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This is a first, it is probably the only mature statement made about the Welsh language by a politician during recent times, at Westminster or Cardiff. Well done Paul Murphy.
Personally I would have prefered an alternate statement .....
"There is a need to promote the Welsh language and also to ensure that Welsh speakers have more opportunities to use the language without resorting to the law".
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Hi DanDydin,
Could you elaborate SionCornnery? Could you give examples of when on a daily basis you are forced to speak a second language?
Certainly can Dan. I have been educated entirely in one county - primary to secondary to university to teacher training college. After obtaining my PGCE I was told in a conversation with the deputy director of education for the county that I had "no chance" of getting a primary school teaching job in the county of my birth as an English monoglot. The irony is, I did my teaching practice in two bi-lingual schools ( in the same county ) both of which actually only taught Welsh for half an hour a week via a peripetetic teacher! My county is roughly 50% Welsh speaking as far as I can tell. Though, by Welsh speaking I actually mean they can ask if you are going out for a pint, how your mother is but have a tenuous grasp of tense and grammar.
I could give many more examples, though for legal reasons I'd have to be so vague as to make them meaningless for the debate. You just have to accept that what I mention above is my honest experience.
But, forced is too strong a word, not one that I originally used.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
There's certainly more of a maturity than is seen on this blog site!
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Sion Cornnery.
Did you not realise the advantages of being bilingual ?Surely you were given ample chance to learn Welsh at school, and afterwards .
At a guess, I'd say you're from an anglicised part of Ceredigion .
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The last months have been pretty boring when it's the economy is the real issue. Why not cut the nonsense and just legislate that all notices, packaging, adverts etc should be bilingual like in a normal country - then we could get on with the real important stuff.
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As one of the silent minority who does not speak Welsh, I am sick and tired of narrow nationalists coming on this website and claiming to represent our majority view.
These narrow UK nationalists bang on and on about the dangers of following the rest of Europe and much of the world into bilingualism. They then warn of the dangers of expressing ourselves more confidently as a nation through language, politics and other 'silly' escapades that us Welsh are apparently too incapable to cope with.
So, to the handfull of UK nashies out there who spend so much time polluting Betsan's blog with nonsence, I suggest that you join an internet dating site. You may even find a friend, possibly with similar social skill issues.
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What is truly astounding is the huge change of opinion since a question on need for a new language law was last asked.
In June 2007, another BBC/ICM poll asked this question:
---quote---
The next Welsh Assembly government may
decide to introduce a new law to cover the
use of the Welsh language. Do you think that
a new law should:
- Make ALL private businesses in Wales provide
bi-lingual services ... 24%
- Make only the LARGEST private businesses in
Wales provide bi-lingual services ... 10%
- Leave the current law unchanged, with no businesses
forced to provide bi-lingual services ... 63%
- Don’t know ... 3%
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
---endquote---
At THAT time, the margin against changing the law was 29%.
Of course a lot has changed between then and now. The most obvious of which is that the request for an LCO has been published, and people can see exactly what the One Wales Government had in mind.
This poll indicates that a clear margin think that what is proposed is reasonable and necessary.
-
If you look at the raw data on the ICM website you can see breakdowns for age group, region, and ability to speak Welsh.
---quote---
To what extent do you agree or disagree
with the following statement:
There is a need to create new laws to help
promote the Welsh language and also to
ensure that Welsh speakers have more
opportunities to use the language when
using some services.
agree ... neither agree nor disagree ... disagree ... net margin agreeing
All Wales: 47% ... 23% ... 29% ... 18%
18-34: 55% ... 24% ... 21% ... 34%
35-49: 46% ... 26% ... 29% ... 17%
50+: 43% ... 21% ... 35% ... 8%
North Wales: 56% ... 20% ... 23% ... 33%
Mid & West Wales: 47% ... 25% ... 27% ... 20%
South East Wales: 42% ... 23% ... 35% ... 7%
Fluent in Welsh: 74% ... 15% ... 12% ... 62%
Speak Welsh, but not fluently: 60% ... 17% ... 23% ... 37%
Don't speak Welsh: 37% ... 27% ... 35% ... 2%
http://www.icmresearch.co.uk/pdfs/2009_feb_bbcwales_poll.pdf
---endquote---
So, in EVERY region of Wales, and in EVERY age group, and EVEN AMONG THOSE WHO DON'T SPEAK WELSH, there is agreement on the need to introduce a new language law.
It looks like the vocal anti-Welsh minority has shrivelled up.
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The day a law is introduced into Wales to give the minority Welsh speaking population an unfair advantage over the majority English speaking population will be the day that civil unrest starts.
I thank the stars that I have a sense of humour because listening to nationalists spouting their predjudicial nonsense based on some utopian Welsh nation that has never existed and never will is the best tonic in the world.
What civilised person would willingly advocate the minority in a population dictating to the majority in a population and hoping to get away with it because of a language? This is tribalism pure and simple and should be shot down in flames for the petty tin pot politics that it is.
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The Kultur Minister thinks this opinion poll shows that people who live in Wales are ahead of "some politicians" and that it suggests a maturity in the debate.
Of course it is nothing of the sort. Anyone knows that the Nationalists have created a narrative which almost makes it a taboo to show skepticism towards the Welsh language.
I had to laugh when I read this from Snoutintrough:
"The real question is when welsh speaking becomes a vehicle for people who are fluent in that language to so order the world (in little wales) to their advantage over the majority who do not speak welsh."
He has captured the sense of what attitudes are really like out there. And then there is an equally germane observation from SionCornnery:
"Language is the means by which we communicate, it's not interesting in itself, it's what we have to say that matters."
At a time when the world economy is struggling to pull out of a deep recession, and Wales has its fair share of major economic challenges, it truly beggars belief that these Nationalist elites want to drive the Welsh economy to ruin by imposing what is in effect "linguistic protectionism".
Contrary to the WAG Kultur Minister, I believe the vast majority of people living in Wales do not want such decorations on a Crachach chocolate cake when their main concern is to simply get a piece of bread and butter to feed hungry mouths, and to keep a roof over their head.
I believe Gwynedd is a fine example of the Kultur Minister's dream in reality.
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message 28....
If 'ianapharri' is so concerned about the 'pollution' on this blog, maybe he would be better served following his own advice, and seeking out a dating site to turn to.
WE come on here not to pollute, but have our legitimate say on all things to do with OUR HOME territory, which does not comply with the ambitions of the nationalist element, by a very long chalk.
How many times must it be demonstrated that the vast bulk of the population of Wales, show absolutely no preference to follow the agenda set by the language nuts and the nationalists.
Even though THOSE presently hold sway in the Bay.
Hopefully not for long however, as,and when, the truth becomes apparent to that same majority, it may well be the Bay administration finds itself seriously curtailed in it's activities, if not actully dispensed with altogether.
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Re. 23: SionCornnery wrote: "But, forced is too strong a word, not one that I originally used."
Sorry to be pedantic, but you said that "I feel like that too" to the statement: "Thousands of us are forced to speak a second language in our own country every day of the year."
You then said, when asked for examples, "Certainly can Dan." Sounds to me that "forced" is definitely the sentiment you used, if not the exact word.
However, you failed to give examples of where you "are forced to speak a second language in our own country every day of the year". You did give one example where you were told by one individual at one point in time that you would not find employment in a Welsh and English speaking school with Welsh and English speaking children being given a bilingual education in a bilingual area as you were unable at that time to speak one of the languages. Whether this is right or wrong is a debate in itself, but I will not go there, I just would like to hear of examples of your daily experience of being forced.
Let me share one simple daily experience of mine as a Welsh speaker who is far more fluent and relaxed speaking Welsh and who stutters and fails to find the correct words when speaking English. I pop into the post office to request a form or to buy stamps etc, I say "Bore Da" and am greeted with either "Don't speak Welsh" or "Speak English" - both sometimes (but not always) preceded with a "sorry" and both with the same underlying meaning. If I ask for a Welsh speaker I feel completely dis-empowered by the way I am treated, especially as around 50% of the time there isn't one available or I'm asked to return to the back of the line. If I make a fuss about this second class service I am an "extremist".
Should the national post office be legally forced to provide a service in a native language is another issue and for further debate.
If you want more examples I can share a few hundred with you, some really unpleasant. But that isn't the point, what I would like to hear is where and when you have the same experiences.
Also Snoutsintrough, it would be good to be able to view your examples of job adverts which you complained about.
This is an attempt at a genuine discussion Mr Murphy.
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It is funny reading these comments. I've lived in Wales over half my life. I learnt welsh when I came here. If I'd have moved to France I'd have learnt french too. I see no problem with the language. There is a problem with paranoia and anti-welsh feeling from some people but if it wasn't the language they hate it would be something else.
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If things stay as they are now, that is, within the Welsh Language Act 1993, all would be fine. There really is no need for yet more tinkering.
What a distraction, while the world economy stands on a precipice, and people up and down Wales worry about their livelihoods!
Come on Nationalists, get a dose of reality! Or if you must insist on "bilingualism" why not form a new kind of Patagonia. Perhaps the Welsh Assembly Government could buy Bardsey Island and declare it a special "language zone" where all those on this blog and elsewhere who hold these extreme minority views could live them out.
Then let the rest of us get on with our ordinary "outward looking " lives.
They would be entitled to broadband internet connections and ambassadors and a whole cadre of translators. Top jobs on the island would be translators, interpreters, sheep farmers and publishers of smallest circulation journals and newspapers:) And if your first language is English, don't bother coming....
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The Labour Party in Wales has (with some exceptions) had an antipathy towards the Welsh Language. Paul Murphy is not one of those exceptions, despite his professed declaration that he wishes to see the Language 'flourish'. His attempt to provoke debate is more concerned with limiting the powers of the National Assembly of Wales to legislate on the Welsh Language. He wants those powers to remain in an English-dominated Parliament in London, which has presided over a massive decline in the Language. During the last 50 years it has passed (under pressure from Wales) two weak Acts, which have failed to protect the Language from further decline.
The powers which are proposed in the LCO as it stands are in any case very weak. Large companies which provide public services would be expected to provide a level of bilingual services in Wales.
From some of the comments on this blog it would appear that it is the English language and the non-Welsh speaking people of Wales who are under threat from the proposals. In fact it is the opposite. The Welsh Language is under threat.. of extinction. Government policies (over centuries) have been largely responsible for its decline. Labour governments have done little or nothing to assist. Paul Murphy is following a long tradition of lack of interest in Wales and all things Welsh. All that matters to him, and his colleagues at Westminster, are their seats, salaries and pensions. If the NAW gets legislative powers, the numbers of MPs from Wales will be cut, and the likes of Murphy and Touhig will be forcibly retired. They would not be missed. What they have achieved for Wales could be written on a postage stamp.
Someone above said that many people's command of the Welsh Language is poor.. grammar and vocabulary etc. That is equally true of monoglot English-speakers, and not just in Wales. Someone else said that he is forced to speak another language every day.... I agree.
Many other countries are bi- or multi-lingual, and have no problems with that fact. The ICM poll shows that there is a strength of feeling among the people of Wales to see the Language strengthened, despite the efforts of the Labour dinosaurs like Paul Murphy to marginalise it. The anti-Welsh feelings of a minority here, are not reflected in the general population.
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Dear Mapexx,
Thanks for your concern but I'm a very happily married man.
I also have friends in all political parties, but unlike many of the anti-language/devolution comments on this blog, they use coherent arguments to make their point. I suppose that it is a compliment to Betsan that her blog attracts such a consistent bunch of anti-Welsh trolls, as many are encouraged by their political masters to do exactly this.
It is a shame though that more able individuals were not able to comment on language issues, such as on specific use of monies to make support for the language more effective. I would particularly welcome thoughts on how to support the use of Welsh within families where the only speakers are the children or in the social scene for children outside school. Another topic is where well meaning firms/Govt Depts are spending monies on bilingual documents, when transferring say a fraction of those monies to local community learning initiatives would be far more productive.
I wait in hope rather than expectation for some troll-free constructive responses.
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I can only assume there is a problem with my post [#29] because of the links. I think you can only link to a web page rather than directly to a pdf.
ICM's page with the links are here:
http://www.icmresearch.co.uk/media-centre-archive.php
BBC Wales Post Election Poll (June 2007)
BBC Wales Poll (Feb 2009)
So I'll try again, but with the direct links removed:
--------------------------------
What is truly astounding is the huge change of opinion since a question on need for a new language law was last asked.
In June 2007, another BBC/ICM poll asked this question:
---quote---
The next Welsh Assembly government may
decide to introduce a new law to cover the
use of the Welsh language. Do you think
that a new law should:
- Make ALL private businesses in Wales provide
bi-lingual services ... 24%
- Make only the LARGEST private businesses in
Wales provide bi-lingual services ... 10%
- Leave the current law unchanged, with no businesses
forced to provide bi-lingual services ... 63%
- Don’t know ... 3%
---endquote---
At THAT time, the margin against changing the law was 29%.
Of course a lot has changed between then and now. The most obvious of which is that the request for an LCO has been published, and people can see exactly what the One Wales Government had in mind.
This poll indicates that a clear margin think that what is proposed is reasonable and necessary.
-
If you look at the raw data on the ICM website you can see breakdowns for age group, region, and ability to speak Welsh.
---quote---
To what extent do you agree or disagree
with the following statement:
There is a need to create new laws to help
promote the Welsh language and also to
ensure that Welsh speakers have more
opportunities to use the language when
using some services.
agree ... neither agree nor disagree ... disagree ... net margin agreeing
All Wales: 47% ... 23% ... 29% ... 18%
18-34: 55% ... 24% ... 21% ... 34%
35-49: 46% ... 26% ... 29% ... 17%
50+: 43% ... 21% ... 35% ... 8%
North Wales: 56% ... 20% ... 23% ... 33%
Mid & West Wales: 47% ... 25% ... 27% ... 20%
South East Wales: 42% ... 23% ... 35% ... 7%
Fluent in Welsh: 74% ... 15% ... 12% ... 62%
Speak Welsh, but not fluently: 60% ... 17% ... 23% ... 37%
Don't speak Welsh: 37% ... 27% ... 35% ... 2%
---endquote---
So, in EVERY region of Wales, and in EVERY age group, and EVEN AMONG THOSE WHO DON'T SPEAK WELSH, there is a positive margin who agree on the need to introduce a new language law.
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Message 20 Alfsplace1986:
Oh well in that case I see you still single people out for no apparent reason and then proceed to attack them! I can see no other contribution that you have made here.
You are a typical Welsh nationalist bully who is unable to accept that other people have a different view to his own
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message 37....
I would need to engaged more fully with you on some aspects of you message, however, to clarify my personal view of the matter, I can say this....
There is no conflict in my mind between those whose normal language is English, which happens to cover just about 80% of the Welsh population, and Cymraeg which despite continuous attempts to promote it, has never really been subjected to up take by much more than about a true 10 to 15% , if that even.
The conflict or differing in opinions comes from the present set up in the Bay, using valuable tax funds, that could and should be used elsewhere in Wales, on forcing the language into the public domain, where it patently is not welcome.
The bulk of the population have been coerced, by means taken from the minuscule majority at the last referendum, as permission of the electorate to set in
motion the agenda presently being followed, in regards the language.
We were never canvassed for such an agenda, nor were we canvassed for the current demand through the LCO, under discussion by the Westminster government, to extend such an agenda into the business sphere.
In fact the generally compliant majority has not been canvassed for much of what is proposed currently, or scheduled however tenuously, for the future of our region.
This the fundamental reason for the setting up of the True Wales movement, to try to counteract such policies currently being pursued by the WAG/Assembly.
For some centuries the language has been in decline, now that may be seen as bad by some, good by others, with the overwhelming majority completely non committal, or even totally disinterested, which it has to be said, is the most likely actuality.
Attempting to bring a 'education' structure into the ex Ysgol or ex school environment, whereby the language should be more rigorously encouraged, is a forlorn venture. This because the vast majority of kids revert to English, even in strong Cymraeg areas due to the mass of English language data and information to hand at home, in the street, the Internet, the world of entertainment, and if readers, the wealth of books which are non available in the Cymraeg.
Now, all this may be a sad state of affairs for the language, and it''s adherents, but that is the way of the world, and no amount of force, or persuasion, can do more than tinker with the edges of the matter.
To take this one step further, one must say, if the present agenda is maintained, the logical outcome will NOT be a mass take up of the language, but a severe curtailment of the activities of those currently engaged in it's promotion. Resulting in it's even more rapid decline.
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Ianapharri message no 28.
Are you sure you are one of the silent majority? As in one of those 50% of the Welsh electorate that never votes on welsh matters?
I must say I would find that hard to believe as you've clearly got a keen enough interest in Welsh politics to post here.
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DanDydin said: "You did give one example where you were told by one individual at one point in time that you would not find employment in a Welsh and English speaking school with Welsh and English speaking children being given a bilingual education in a bilingual area as you were unable at that time to speak one of the languages."
Sorry I was unclear. I was told, I would not get a job in a purely English medium school in the county of my birth and education. Of my graduating cohort of a hundred plus trainee teachers, two got jobs in Wales, both with a few miles of the English border. Are you precluded from your job because of the languages you do not speak?
DanDydin, you describe how you are unable to receive the services you require through the medium of Welsh and how dis-empowered you feel. Again, I'm sorry you feel this way, I wouldn't want to be in your situation, but just as some people here tell me "Learn Welsh", perhaps those uncomfortable speaking English should try and brush up on the language spoken fluently by 99 per cent of the UK and 80 percent of Wales - if only to complete "business" transactions. Or, if that sounds a bit harsh as I concede it might, just take a moment to look at the reality of Wales - not a coherent nation and never was, is completely dependent on subsidy from England, is a majority English speaking principality, floats like an island in a global sea of English - so, what do you expect? It's tough, we've all got burdens to bear, so revitalise your community by doing Welsh cultural things, don't expect the state to forcibly create Welsh speakers out of the rest of the population so you can talk to them in Knighton or Caldicot or Angle. Seize the day. My partner ( as far as we can tell ) wrote the first ever Welsh HTML manual. Nobody was interested in it, it disappeared, history has no trace of it. This was well over ten years ago. If the Welsh community wants to make Welsh stronger then do something about it, today, now. Go create a website, start a writing group, offer your services to teach evening classes for free, do something outside of the straight-jacket of official Welsh culture ( like the Eisteddfod ), create a vibe. If Welsh culture becomes more attractive then Welsh may be a real goer and I mean that seriously - I want all languages to thrive on their own merits. Another anecdote, a Welsh speaking friend, super fluent, translator spec, read their first English novel as an adult a few years back and said "I can't believe people write like this." People need to start writing new Welsh novels that will bring people like the person I spoke about above back into the fold of Welsh language culture. So instead of moaining ( like we all do admittedly ), make Welsh a language and a culture worthy of emulation, people may then embrace it voluntarilly in larger numbers.
DanDydin said. "Should the national post office be legally forced to provide a service in a native language is another issue and for further debate." Well, the national post office is UK based and the main language of the UK and Wales is English. Welsh is the native language of many people who live in Wales, but it is quite clearly not the national language of Wales as the whole nation does not speak it and most people will never be prepared to learn it. ( Also, it's the English speakers who fund your post office and council and NHS in the majority ) Welsh is one of the languages of Wales. What is a native? So are you now only Welsh if you can trace an uninterupted line back 10 generations? An incredibly high percentage of the population is not Welsh born, or of Welsh parent or grandparentage. So, even if you want to narrowly and fascistically bind race to language, you've immediately got a problem, most of the population of Wales is not historically Welsh whatever that means.
This is the bottom line. The Welsh language debate exists and causes so much tension for one simple reason - where the lines on the map have been drawn. People were speaking Welsh in Liverpool and Hereford in large numbers far more recently than in many parts of Wales. Should Wales include some English counties, should Monmoutshire go back to England. See, it's all so arbitray, so dumb, so stupid. Wales with it's current boundaries is a fiction. Ask someone from Llanbister fifty years ago if the felt Welsh and they wouldn't really know what you meant in the sense that they might now. We've been nation building, faking an identity in the English speaking heartlands since post-industrial decline now for so long that we've forgotten what Wales is and was, and we're now so het up about this fake identity, either passionately defending or attacking it. The fact is, the Welsh speaking heartlands aren't Welsh enough and the English speaking heartlands are too Welsh. Ditch devolution, ditch the assembly, redraw the lines on the map and create a smaller, more fully devolved, Welsh language oriented Bro Cymru. That way, significantly more people will be happy, but not completely. Forget about the shape of the map and we'll all be able to move on. Not quite sure what they'd do with counties like Carmarthenshire though!!!!!
halfawelshman said "It is funny reading these comments. I've lived in Wales over half my life. I learnt welsh when I came here. If I'd have moved to France I'd have learnt french too. I see no problem with the language."
I'm glad you have the time! I work full time, commute, am doing a part-time degree for career purposes, rennovating the cheapest house I could buy to the tune of 20 hours a week, living, caring for relatives, trying to keep fit, have my own young family to care for - there is no way I am ever going to find the time or energy to learn Welsh. It is so far down my list of priorities. Ditto for most of the population. Next problem, find an English medium school for my child so that in twenty years time they can compete with the five billion other folk who will be fighting them for the planet's scarce resources.
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"So, in EVERY region of Wales, and in EVERY age group, and EVEN AMONG THOSE WHO DON'T SPEAK WELSH, there is a positive margin who agree on the need to introduce a new language law"
Ask the questions again, when, the costs and the potential loss of competitiveness and jobs has been explained. But, then again, people are often inclined only to see the dangers after the horse has bolted. How the people of Wales aren't on the streets over the difference between Welsh and English hospital waiting lists is beyond me. It's probably human nature, a lot of idea seem good at the time.......
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message 38....
North Wales: 56% ... 20% ... 23% ... 33%
Mid & West Wales: 47% ... 25% ... 27% ... 20%
South East Wales: 42% ... 23% ... 35% ... 7%
?????
Please explain these figures, to what area do they relate, certainly not SE Wales.
To me they are nonsense.
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ianapharri wrote: “I would particularly welcome thoughts on how to support the use of Welsh within families where the only speakers are the children or in the social scene for children outside school.”
Do you not see the absurdity of this statement? English monoglot parents who send their children to Welsh medium schools generally do so because they imagine it will afford their children some kind of economic advantage in later life, or due to some misplaced sense of patriotism. Most of these parents have neither the time or inclination to learn Welsh. Their children are culturally no different from their English speaking neighbours, they just happen to speak a different language at school ( and I mean only at school. )
What kind of world are we living in whereby parents for no sensible reason are placing a linguistic distance between themselves and their children. What is that about? I live my life through the medium of English and I have nothing against Welsh or any other language, but I think in English, so there’s no way on earth my children will needlessly live a significant portion of their lives through a language I don’t understand. ( If I were living in France or Bala or Cwmanne, then I may give a different answer ). If more Welsh speakers nowadays and in the past adopted my attitude, far, far more people would be speaking Welsh today. If you think and live in a particular language then bring your children up in it, but this business of ‘promoting’ a foreign language for your children at home ( be that English or Welsh ) is crazy. You shouldn’t need state aid to support the use of a language in your own home because you should use YOUR language whatever that is.
On the other hand, if you as parent wish to speak a different language to your mother tongue, then cool, learn it and speak to your partner and your children in it. In fact, I’m happy to pay tax for you to learn Welsh properly. But if you as a parent are not prepared to learn Welsh then don’t erect a barrier within your home and destroy your child’s right to have a parent that can help with homework just because it’s the patriotic thing to do. Most failures I see to pass the language down occur because a Welsh speaker starts a family with an English speaker and is perfectly happy to "convert" live their lives overwhelmingly through the medium of English.
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Re 42
That was basically just another British nationalist rant. Fine, if that's how you feel. But the victim mentality here and in other contributions is very clear.
You said:
"Next problem, find an English medium school for my child so that in twenty years time they can compete with the five billion other folk who will be fighting them for the planet's scarce resources."
So you've decided to deprive your of children the opportunity of being bilingual then? Because that is what they'll be - bilingual. There's a very good chance, if the evidence of this blog is anything to go, that they will actually have better English, as well as Welsh, when they leave the education system.
Why not let them choose what they would like as their main language when they're old enough to decide?
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I moved from England to Cardiff about 10 years ago cos this is where the work was. I spent most of my early years at sea, circumnavigating the globe many times. Over those years I frequently wished I spoke French and Spanish, occasionally Portuguese, sometimes Mandarin, but never in all my travels did I find the need to speak Welsh.
Language is a tool for communication. That is all. Some sound better than others and their use in verse and song can be a joy to the ears, even if incomprehensible, as indeed is Welsh.
I take no particular interest in politics (Welsh or UK) and as far as the Welsh language is concerned I believe that those that want to use it should have the freedom and choice to speak it. Equally, those that have no particular wish to learn or to speak it (of which I am one) should have the same choice. Wales is after all a part of the UK, the first language of which is English.
The learning of Welsh in English medium schools in Wales is currently mandatory. Thus when my son moved to a school in Cardiff he was forced to learn Welsh in addition to the other NC languages. He acheived the necessary C grade at GCSE and has never had reason to utter a word of the language since. He considered it a complete waste of time and would sooner have learned Latin, which it least has a use in the outside world.
Opinion polls are notoriously iffy, hence Disraelis's observation of 'Lies, d****d lies and statistics'. Statistics can be manipulated, sorry, interpreted, in many ways. I would not say that there is a positive margin of the people I know at work and in the village who are in favour of new laws to promote the welsh language - and many of them are Welsh speakers.
Legislation implies people are in a hurry to get things implemented. Why? If it took many decades for the use of the Welsh language to decline, why not have the patience to let it natuarally recover? The Welsh language is alive and well as evidenced by the number of Welsh medium primary and secondary schools, many of which are over-subscribed.
Manipulating people into its use is both undemocratic and counter-productive.
A bi-lingual Wales - Why? For what purpose? Will the economy suddenly flourish if everybody can communicate in both english and welsh? Will the amount of waste paper suddenly decrease because people don't immediately throw the Welsh (like me) or English (like others) version of documents in the recycling? Will foreign investment pour in with a dual-language workforce (unless English/Mandarin)?
I think not.
Let those that wish to speak and learn and communicate in welsh be free and unencumbered to do so; leave those who have wider horizons free to speak as they will.
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Message 42 sionconnery.
Another excellent post... you seem to have a skill at taking this, the most depressing and divisive of subjects, into something a bit more positive and rational.
I really cant fault what you've put in any way apart from perhaps where you said that "80% of Welsh people are fluent in English"... which was obviously as a result of you knowing that 20% of Welsh people 'have some knowledge' of the Welsh language. I would suggest that a great deal more than 80% of Welsh people are fluent in English! It would have to be somewhere within a few decimel places of one hundred.
Also very interested in your point regarding liverpool and hereford as it makes you take a step back and think just how ridiculous (or dumb as you say) this blanket way of legislating to ensure a Welsh language revival has become. This to me really highlights the difference between 'reviving' and something altogether more sinister in the form of social engineering. That is of course because you cant 'revive' something that was never there!
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#43 The people of Wales have had ample opportunity to hear what you and people like you think. This poll shows that only a minority agree with you.
#44 It would have been much easier to follow the links and find out for yourself. They are the three Welsh NHS regions. SE Wales is:
Monmouthshire
Newport
Torfaen
Blaenau Gwent
Caerffili
Merthyr Tudful
RCT
Cardiff
Vale of Glamorgan
And it's no surprise to hear that the views of people in Wales seem like nonsense to you. But be thankful. You now have some idea of how your views seem to most other people in Wales. You're in a minority of 29%.
Even among those who you obviously expected would agree with you - those in your own age group, in your own region, and those who can't speak Welsh - you are STILL in a minority of 35% ... each time.
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Re. Message 40: Mappex said: "and Cymraeg which despite continuous attempts to promote it, has never really been subjected to up take by much more than about a true 10 to 15% , if that even."
This isn't really relevant, but I wouldn't want anyone to get the wrong impression of historical facts:
100 years ago there were over a million Welsh speakers in Wales. This was the census' figure at a time when it is widely accepted that authorities encouraged people to deny their Welsh speaking ability. Over 40% of the people in Gwent were Welsh speakers at that time.
Not important within the debate, but this is the second time on this blog that commentators have noted that the language was never above 20% etc.
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Re. Message Number 40 by SionCornnery:
You don't seem to get it.
1 - I discussed a native language, not native people! How could you get that so wrong? As it happens I am not a 'native' of Wales either!
2 - your advice on language skills is rude. So, there is no time to go and learn Welsh, but I should make the time to go and brush up on my English? Like it! By the way, I have a first class degree in... wait for it... English! I am fluent, but you still don't get it! I am more comfortable and can better express myself in my mother tongue, which, yes, happens to be a native tongue of Wales.
If you were told that you could not get a job in a non Welsh speaking school because of you inability to speak Welsh, then that was wrong and I acknowledge your point.
But you have still failed to answer my challenge to you. Give me examples of where you are forced on a daily basis to use a second language in your own country. You said that you could do so easily.
Your arguments about making the language a living culture show your lack of awareness. I, and many others do teach Welsh, organise events, enjoy the language and culture. But with such an influx of Anglo-American culture and the physical influx of immigration it is a losing battle.
By the way, I remember your partner's book and remember being amazed at the fact that anyone had actually gone and done it. As it happens, I know your partner!
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Message 46 Fidafydd
I dont think it was 'another British nationalist rant' at all. The post to which you refer was rational and fair. It offered people like yourself to calm down and begin a discussion in which both sides would have to make concessions to the other. SionConnery's post clearly did that...why not offer something constructive as a response.
In fact this is what you did say:
"There's a very good chance, if the evidence of this blog is anything to go, that they will actually have better English, as well as Welsh, when they leave the education system."
Oh you just couldnt resist this tired old slur could you! hmm but tell me, would they also turn into a complete pedant when stumped in a discussion... like all the other Welsh speakers on this blog? How ironic that you actually missed out the word "by" and your sentence doesnt make sense.
If you want to pick on someone then pick on me (like everyone else seems to). I dont think its fair to use your cliche attacks on someone who is clearly trying to be constructive and cant have a problem with Welsh as his partner is obviously very proficient in it!
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Re 47
Nice of you, after all of your ten years in Wales, to tell us Welsh what we should think ...
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#47 oldishseadog wrote:
"I moved from England to Cardiff about 10 years ago...."
That says it all. In England you didn't learn any of the history of Wales.
Conquered, occupied, subjugated, assimilated, exploited.
You don't ask the question, 'Why is Welsh a minority language in Wales?' It was a decision of the English Crown and Parliament that Welsh was not to be a language ofgovernment, law and administration. That was to the English, your language and the language of the conqueror.
You come to Wales to work and have the arrogance to tell us that our Language is useless. Your country and people created the status of the Welsh language and threatens it with extinction. How would you feel if that was done to your native tongue?
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So MH____ at #49 wrote .....
"The people of Wales have had ample opportunity to hear what you and people like you think."
This I assume is the democratic voice of Welsh Nationalism .....
I would translate, MH____ means .....
"you have had your chance, now be quiet whilst we attend to matters of independence".
In your dreams, Plaid Cymru and chums have been outed as intent on separation at the earliest time. Their preferred method is to damage our constitution beyond repair so that separation becomes inevitable, too late, the game is up, Westminster has woken and both Labour and Conservative intend to broaden the debate.
Calling someone anti-Welsh because they disagree is now obsolete, redundant, irrelevant. To disagree is in fact democracy.
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One of the issues here is, what constitutes a Welsh speaker ? Can a school child who can string a few sentences together count ? Do you have to be competent or fluent ?
What about written Welsh, can the 500k speakers write as well ?
In short, what actually is the demand for Welsh services and how cost effective are they to supply ?
All I know is that a company I worked for tried to put together a Welsh speaking service in Cardiff. Out of a workforce of a few hundred mainly Welsh educated people, they struggled to find more than a handful of people who spoke the language with the necessary fluency to serve customers (customers I will add who never actually materialised, the whole thing was scrapped after a couple of months).
It would be good to know the criteria by which the Welsh Language Board compile their figures.
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message 50....
There may well have been 100% Cymraeg speakers a century and half ago, my grand parents were fluents, as far as their rather limited education went, I recall my maternal grandmother being quite poor at speaking English, but she could hardly read and write in either language. This in the Blaenavon area, where the family farmed.
But, as the valleys have opened up to mass movement from the south, so did the Cymraeg decline.
In the Gwent area, to the almost total exclusion of the Cymraeg, especially in the major urban areas.
Therefore my estimate for the suspected present numbers of today, is relatively correct, within accepted tolerances.
The point I made was purely referring to the language take up over the last few decades, since the Gt War, and particularly since WW2.
No matter what figures are put on the language, or by whom, the chances of any dramatic rise in the future are speculative, and should be seen to be so.
They will not be helped by enforcement, as such an action breeds contempt, and rejection at every stage of it's implementation.
That is why I am running a constant battle with those who are for the language, they just cannot seem to get their heads around the speculation factor involved in it all.
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DanDydin, you said "Your arguments about making the language a living culture show your lack of awareness. I, and many others do teach Welsh, organise events, enjoy the language and culture. But with such an influx of Anglo-American culture and the physical influx of immigration it is a losing battle."
That's good news, you practice what you preach, I applaud you - honestly and seriously f you are adding to and not just consuming cultural life, and, if in your field you're of the calibre of Gorki's or the Super Furry Animals I'll even pay to come and watch you. However, my comments don't demonstrate a lack of awareness of anything other than your personal life, not of Welsh life itself i.e. the fair weather nationalists that don't put in the hard yards.
All world cultures including the Anglo-Welsh one ( if there is indeed a sinlgle one ) are being buffeted by global forces - some good, some bad. We cannot resist, only ride, assimulate and reject in whatever form we can manage. I can say quite categorically the Anlgo-Welsh culture and indeed idiom of my childhood is not the same as that of youngsters today. That's just the way things are, change is everywhere and no cutural or linguistic atrifacts can be preserved in aspic for ever. Indeed, the Welsh you speak today is very different from that of five hundred years ago, ditto English. I applaud you for doing what you can to preserve your culture, but surely you must concede your culture should not be imposed on me, today or in the future regardless of the shape of a map.
BTW, didn't mean to be rude. I thought my suggestion was quite mild compared to those who tell me I have to take ten years out to get fluent in Welsh, because I tell you, if I were to learn Welsh I'd want to learn it properly and not sound illiterate when I spoke it ( or any other language I tried learning for that matter)
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Nearly missed that, know my partner indeed. Ha Ha Ha! Small world if it's the same person.
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FiDafydd, your .....
"Nice of you, after all of your ten years in Wales, to tell us Welsh what we should think ..."
..... you write that or similar for most opponents of Plaid Cymru quackery, everyone that is resident in the UK has a democratic right to express a view, time tenure is irrelevant, as indeed is location.
"oldishseadog" has made a valid opinion, just as Paul Murphy's debate will generate opinions that would otherwise be submerged by Plaid and chums.
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Language is a tool for communication, not some "holy" relic. It is simply a medium which acts to facilitate interaction between individuals.
And as for ownership of the Welsh language, I think one of the most ridiculous statements I have heard was made by some of the politicians in the Assembly. They said that "we all own the Welsh language" or words to that effect.
What utter nonsense! Who is "we"? All who speak the language or those who live within the borders of a region of the UK called Wales or someone who calls themselves Welsh but now lives in Wisconsin?
Or even a New Zealand Maori who for whatever reason decided to learn Welsh?
The answer is that Nobody "owns" the Welsh language.
Can you imagine us asking "who owns the English language or the Italian language?"
Please can all the nationalists stop this saccharine affectation with attributing some "holy" status to the Welsh language.
If people want to continue to use typewriters, let them. They are free to do so.
But if others want to use a laptop because it transforms and simplifies their experience then let them.
But don't make us all have to use typewriters and laptops just so that typewriters are accorded the same usefulness, when clearly they are not.
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Huxleypiguk, your #56 .....
"It would be good to know the criteria by which the Welsh Language Board compile their figures."
Smoke and mirrors, illusions, and the value of grants syphoned from taxpayers to inflict ................
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message 56....
the criteria is simply described,...throw tons of taxpayers cash at the language, ensure it is forced ion to the curricula if all schools in Wales, and stand back and wait for the young to carry the language forward into every aspect of public and private life in the next generation.
It is not working, as the young reject the language every time they leave the school premises.
They immediately turn on their X Box or PlayStation, their PC or laptop, or commence dialling or texting, in English, on their mobile phone to their erstwhile school companions, or family members, on their mobile telephones, where never a word of the other language can be seen.
I do not say that ALL scholars do that, some opt to play sports or do errands for their mother, or simply just hang about street corners, where again, the normal language is usually, but I accept not always, English.
For all the government agencies that answer the telephone with a 'bora da'....etc...Few are responded to in Cymraeg, at least not in the south and south east of Wales.
Another waste of time and energy setting that all up.
Frustrating for the telephone receptionists, without doubt, not that many of them could conduct a conversation in Cymraeg, once then initial greeting is completed.
The day will dawn soon enough when this will all be behind us, and a more rational and sensible regime takes it's place, hopefully in tandem with the total decline and eradication of the Bay menage.
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Despite the voices here of a language obsessed minority it has been shown that the Welsh population have far more regard for the Welsh language and support a move to strengthen the human rights of Welsh speakers to access services from major companies (most of which were formally state owned) in their own language in their own country. The true language extremists are those that want Welsh confined to the hearth and want effectively it to be banned from public use. Time and time again out right lies and half truths are used, together with the most outrageous scare tactics. These are the marks of the extremists. Unfortunately their obsession is such that they try to hijack just about every discussion.
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Annwyl 41, 42, 43, 45 & 58,
First of all I'll give you a tip. As with so many things in life less is more in blogging. So have your rant, then EDIT ! It's easier to read.
Secondly, I am one of those parents sending their children to Welsh medium school, but am learning myself so no 'distance' is being created. In fact, since when did learning another language do anything other than build bridges?
Thirdly, do you really believe that being monolingual gives a competitive advantage? Then why are other nations not dropping languages, in the realisation that by conversing in 2,3 or more - their economy is doomed!!!!!!!!!!!
(42) Finally, I am one of the majority who does not speak Welsh and supports its growth and effective measures to support this. I may well have to lose the 'silent' label but that is a cross I will have to bear. What will defeat your arguments in the end will be the huge demand for Welsh medium education from all communities of Wales. The days of claiming it as a 'leafy suburbs' issue are long gone. Politicians rarely get elected when slagging off their voters.
Pob hwyl.
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message 64....
I am quite happy to 'hijack' these blogs when it comes down to this obsession the Nat's and nuts have over the language.
Yes, state and public industries, are being swamped by the language hobbyists demanding they discuss whatever, either by phone or mail, in Cymraeg.
According to the lying, rabid, obsessives.
The truth is far different,
There is hardly any call for such discourse, no matter what part of Wales you are in, or from.
Many contributors to this and other blogs have stated, quite categorically, they work in places where, despite fluent translators being made available, the actual take up of their services have been minimal to ZERO.
My wife is a manager in a government department, the NHS, in the last four years they have used the services of a translator once, and then only for an English speaking Cymraeg semi fluent doctor, who could not actually conduct the technical question he demanded to be spoken about in Cymraeg, until, he at one time, slammed down the phone, being self frustrated for his inability, then on his second call on the matter, decided to conduct the matter in English after all.
It is those who promote the language who are the extremists, we, on the other hand sailed along quite nicely, thank you very much, as did most in Wales, for many decades, until this lot of language crazed loonies took over our asylum, and commenced stirring up the less bothered amongst the Cymraeg speakers.
Most of whom were, and probably still are, quite prepared to return to the days of peace and quite they no longer enjoy, thanks to the loonies, as stated.
Finally, in case you feel you cannot take it, you know what you can do,, but keep in mind, I and others WILL continue to 'hijack' (cheeky and insolent sod you are, for saying that in the first place) these blogs, for as long as it takes to overturn the agenda to turn Wales, OUR HOMELAND into a third world state, which is where it will head if the loonies ever managed to succeed in their warped endeavours.
Do not say you have not been forewarned.
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I think that Betsan was missing the point. In questionaires, the phrasing of the question influences the answer. The real issue is whether the Welsh population wants to divert expenditure from health, education and so on to pay for the promotion of the welsh langauge. Imposing more costs on private sector firms will lead to less jobs in Wales. Most of us would not want that, including the majority of Welsh speakers.
I am all for the welsh language, but think that it needs to be kept in perspective. The vision of a "bilingual" wales is quite quixotic: it will never be acheived. English is the main and prime language of Wales, and always will be. Welsh will remain a secondary and minority langauge. Some hark back to a time when this was not the case, but the reality on the ground is that English is the most useful langauge in the world at the moment and can be used all over the world. It is the only language universally understood in within Wales, and will remain so.
The current level of support for Welsh is perfectly adequate. So long as the British tax-payer is willing to pick up the £100m cost of S4C we can all enjoy Caerdydd and Y Pris (would we be so happy if the we had to pay for it, instead of the English and Scots footing 95% of the bill?). I think that encouraging Welsh langauge die-hards to think they can expect to be understood and spoken to in Welsh at all times is to raise expectations that will inevitably be dashed. The current situation is very advantageous to those who are fluent (or less than fluent) in Welsh - their preferential access to public sector jobs means an 8-10% salary premium over non-welsh speakers. Lets leave it at that. More legislation on this issue would diminish Wales and make us poorer - and we are currently the poorest region in the UK.
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message 67....
One word covers that message.
Excellent!
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message 65.....
No offence meant, but are you up to speed on world news?
Only last week it was declared by the UN that there are 2 to 3 thousand 'languages', (many of which I suspect are little more than dialects anyway), under threat, across the globe.
Threats include mass adoption of English, or another major language, loss of territory to the likes of logging and land clearance, mass immigration into indigenous lands and territories, by mono language speakers swamping the 'native' lingo in that area, and a host of other problematic causes.
Attempting to turn back the clock in the way it is being done in Wales, only sets neighbour against neighbour, area against area.
But worst of all, at the expense of the taxpaying general public across the WHOLE of Gt. Britain.
You are admirable for learning alongside your kids, but apart from simply speaking a second, but rather useless language, speaking re it's use outside of Wales, (or maybe even outside your own immediate environment) what can you hope to gain from it?
Sure you will, perhaps, be able to read Cymraeg language books, and stuff, watch and understand what they are on about in Pobl Yr Cwm, no doubt enjoy the monolingual Maes at the Eisteddfod, but beyond that, there is little else going for the language, except chit chat with your similarly Cymraeg speaking neighbour.
Unless your kids leave school, college, or Uni, to slot into a very risky public service job, what else can it be used for?
Ask yourself, why are so many languages, dialects, failing across the globe.
It is because in this madcap modern world of instant Internet global communications, a standard has been set, and that standard is either English, or one of the other major languages that can be sustained by force of numbers.
Cymraeg is not in that band of competants, it's low numbers cannot allow it to compete.
End of story.
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Hello ianapharri.
I'm sorry you feel my posts are too long. However, I feel they are too SHORT to encompass the nuances of the debate ( just as yours are ), but anyway, on to your comments. If you recall my post, I stated that I didn't understand English monoglot parents who send their children to Welsh medium schools (particularly in English speaking areas) without learning Welsh themselves. It appears that due to your efforts to learn, you do not fit into the category I commented on, so relax and stop equating genuine, nuanced concern about where "Wales" may be going with blind disregard for Welsh, because despite what you and others imply, I do not want Welsh to die out, I want it to thrive, but organically, naturally, freely, spontaneously - not imposed legislatively or by some kind of sense of cultural inadequacy if you don't learn it.
A word of caution however, make sure you learn the language your child gets educated in well, because if you don't, you suffer the fate of a number of friends and family who are unable to help their children with their homework when it hits a certain level of complexity. An eight year old will learn about mean, median and modal in maths, can you say these in Welsh? A ten year old can use terms like distinguish, evaporate, gravity, spreadsheet, interpret, precipitation, preacher, hypocrisy, freckle, measles, elf, orthodontist etc. Make sure you know these in Welsh by the time your children hit these ages. ( Don't learn it with them, you should always try and keep a step ahead so you can give immediate and correct help, pushing them further when appropriate. ) When they hit fourteen they should be able to discuss ideas like imagery and metaphor, acceleration, electrons, neutrons, central processing units etc etc. Make sure you are comfortable with these terms. And, don't be surprised if their secondary school enters them for second language Welsh GCSE and A-Level and not first, and don't be surprised if and when they go and do a Welsh degree that it takes four years ( with foundation year ), or a significant section of their first year is spent learning grammar instead of literature.
Also, please read between the lines. I didn't say being monolingual gives you a competitive advantage ( I have no evidence to support that assertion). What I am saying is, I would rather my child have an English medium education that I can assist with, where they spend the time they otherwise would studying Welsh, learning another global language or some other vocational or academic discipline that will help them in later life.
You said, "Finally, I am one of the majority who does not speak Welsh and supports its growth and effective measures to support this."
Absolutely fine, I'm happy that you have something that you believe in and are pursuing passionately - I won't criticise you for a second. However, I'm sure you agree that those who do not wish to follow your path do not have to, that no English speaking parents living in areas with a significant English speaking population are deprived of the right to an English medium education for their children be it in an English medium school or an English unit within a Welsh medium school. I don't think I'll ever understand why anyone would want to switch language from their mother tongue to another unless circumstance dictates they have to. This applies to the generations of Welsh speakers who have done the same. Maybe I'm odd, but for me there is more to life than language. I've got the one I was given and it works fine for me, why should I change? Culturally I owe much to where I was born and live, but ultimately I choose which aspects of which cultures I like, so I have many beliefs, opinions and preferences that may be equated more closely with foreign cultures than my so called own one. I am more than a label, I am more than ten generations of uninterupted "Welsh", I am what I choose to be. I reject many of the beliefs of my parents and embrace others in a unique configuration which is mine. My children I hope, choose their own life too. If going to live in Fiji and learning a dozen Polynesian and Micronesian languages is their choice, then cool; if learning Welsh and becoming a novelist is their choice, then cool; but I won't endorse their learning of an arbitrary language for no good reason other than some fake, fabricated sense of nationhood whilst they are under my care.
Answer me this: Culturally which are more similar:
Caldicot and Almondsbury OR Caldicot and Blaenau ffestiniog
Knighton and Kington OR Knighton and Dinas Mawddwy
Newport and Bristol OR Newport and Bangor
Hay-on-Wye and Ross-on-Wye OR Hay-on-Wye and Fishguard
( Indeed, how homogenous is any one of these places anyway!? )
"Wales" is a hodgepodge and that's cool by me. Stop trying to make it one bland, boring, uniform, fake blob. Be proud of who you are and who you choose to be, don't feel the need to retrain to be some kind of idealised, non-existing Welsh-person - homo cymraegus. Don't feel bad that you're not Welsh enough. Learn Welsh for the right reasons such as: you think it's beautiful, you mother spoke it to you as a child and the rhythms of the language have never left you, the man or woman that you love uses it as their preferred tongue, you find the literature bewitching and resonating - do so and you'll find no one more supportive of your endeavours to learn Welsh than me.
Also, a note on hysteria. Sometimes posters on both sides of the divide ( if indeed things can be stated so naively clearly ) are talking from personal experience which cannot be applied consistently across all of "Wales". For example, many of the problems I discuss are experienced by those who live on the fault line between two languages, people from other parts of "Wales" consequently may not see my point at all.
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huwblog, I think you've summed the whole debate up as well as I've ever heard it:
"The vision of a "bilingual" wales is quite quixotic"
Spot on. Anyone know the Welsh for that?
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Mympwyol.
We are still awaiting examples of the job adverts snoutsintrough wrote about.
If they are not forthcoming what are we to make of his/her assertions?
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message 72....
I fail to see, from dictionary's to hand, both Cymraeg and English, how....
....' mympwyol'...
can be translated from 'quixotic'.
In my 130 yr old Cymraeg dictionary it is stated to mean 'opinionative'
In my modern Cymraeg dictionary, (admittedly, only a school type), it means..
'arbitrary, capricious'
and in the Con Oxford, the meaning of 'quixotic' matches neither of those .
Extract:
1. of persons: resembling Don Quixote; hence striving with lofty enthusiasm for visionary ideals.
2. of actions etc: characteristic of, apppropriate to, Don Quixote, 1851.
How come you say it means as stated?
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response to DanDydin 72.
There are few jobs that are "only" for fluent welsh speakers/writers. The exception, of course, is in the flourishing industry in the translation and teaching of welsh. However, public sector bodies are required to provide some "reasonable" level of provision of welsh and they are pursued by the Welsh Language board (WLB) if they are not acting as it thinks fit. This means that proficiency in welsh at some level appears sometimes as an "essential" or more commonly as a "desirable" criterion.
An example? Just turn to the furore over Conwy County Borough Council appointing its Chief executive last year (Daily Post, October 22 2008). This is the top job in the council, and the chief executive is repsonsible for the delivery of public services to the residents of Conwy. You want the best person for the job, for obvious reasons. Now, Conwy Council did NOT put in any requirement for the candidates to have any knowledge of welsh. The result: the WLB censured the council becuase the advert made "no mention of the need to be able to speak or understand Welsh" and furthermore (horror of horrors) "failed to provide bilingual material in their recruitment pack and also to set down the language requirements of the job in the advert and job description".
Well, is it reasonable to expect the Chief executive to speak some Welsh in Conwy? Well, let us put it another way. If you restrict your potential pool of applicants to people who speak basic welsh, you are restricting your attention to less than 1% of people in the UK (20% of Welsh people). Now, it maybe that the best person happens to be a welsh speaker. However, it is far more likely (on average) that the best person will be a brummy, scotsman or Londoner etc. Result: by restricting youself to welsh speakers, you are not going to appoint the best person for the job exept by fortuitous chance. Result? Public services in Wales are not run as well as they could be and we all suffer.
(The Job was given to Byron Davies who had a similar job in Cornwall. Fair play, it is a Plaid council, good for them).
The same thing can happen all across the public sector in Wales, and the WLB is now backed up by the "One Wales" and "Iaith Pawb" policies of the WAG. Extending this to the private sector would be a disaster.
I think Betsan could enlighten us as to what proportion of jobs in BBC wales are taken by welsh speakers like herself. A lot more than 20% I suspect. It is fun to note that BBC Cymru has had to put out an advert saying "you don't have to speak welsh to work for BBC wales"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/jobs/
This speaks volumes in itself! Because of the close relation between S4C and BBC wales, most of the producers and people I know there are welsh speakers.
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PS "rhamanllyd" is the closest Welsh word to Quixotic, but most would use the English word.
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Many people also thought that the possibility of a devolved Welsh government was a somewhat "Quixotic" idea but how things change. The fact is that the poll shows most Welsh people with balanced non bigoted views are happy to see the Welsh language grow and flourish and it is only a relatively small minority of quite frankly kranky old timers that oppose it.
By the way someone spoke of "Lying rabid obsessives" in the post no 66. Now on the basis of it takes one to know one you must be right because I believe you posted on the South East Wales site and there was some misunderstanding about your membership of MENSA. Would you like to elaborate on the subject or shall I?
As far as compunction is concerned the only compunction in Wales is that one speaks English and that in some jobs presumably dealing with people whose first language is Welsh then the ability to speak Welsh is like any additional skill, an advantage. As a monoglot English speaker I cant see what the fuss is about and of course as Wales becomes increasingly bi lingual the rather bigoted arguments of the anti Welsh brigade with go the same way as their anti devolution views i.e consigned to the historical dustbin.
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Re. Message 74:
This has not answered the challenge, which was: "Could you give examples, Snoutsintrough, of jobs (specifying adverts on the web as evidence) being advertised where they ask for Welsh speakers only when the job does not require it and is not based in a Welsh speaking area?".
I mean, how can a large number of people on this blog complain that there are daily occurrences of jobs being advertised for Welsh speakers only and that the job market and economy is struggling because of this, when they are unable to give examples?
Your example is one where the chief of a council in a part-Welsh speaking area (i.e. Llanrwst & Dolwyddelan etc) was not required to speak Welsh. Even your description of the Welsh Language Board's complaint simply states that they wanted the language noted in the advert! I mean, is that unreasonable?
From the points being made on this forum I would have expected tens of examples daily!
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message 76...
Carry on regardless.
You may find it will rebound very heavily on you though.
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Just had a look at the jobs pages in thursdays Western Mail. There were seven pages of jobs and I could only find one that said Welsh was essential, although many were in a bilingual format.
Being charitable perhaps that is what they are getting confused about. They are assuming that because it is in a bilingual format then one needs to speak Welsh.
On the other hand they could just be relying on innuendo to sate their growing paranoia. Either way I wouldn't hang around for non existent evidence.
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OMG. I am extremely saddened by the petty squabbling and vindictiveness shown in many of these posts.
I am Welsh, and very proud of it! I speak the language fluently and do so daily in my place of work even though it is not a requirement. I embrace all that is Welsh culture and hope that it, together with the Welsh language, continues to survive for centuries to come. However, this should be due to the choice of the people of Wales, not due to legislation.
It is the children of today that will determine the future of the language. Research shows that bilingualism can be an advantage, but that is not to say that we should insist on all children becoming bilingual. Some will chose not to speak Welsh for various reasons. We should respect their choice. We should have confidence in numbers of Welsh speakers continuing to increase - without the need for legislation.
Being bigoted and xenophobic does not help our cause to promote our mother tongue, our culture and our wonderful country.
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message 80....
A well constructed message from a completely sensible person comes before us.
As welcome as the flowers in May.
Long may you continue to use and enjoy the language you are familiar with, and feel comfortable in using.
It certainly is a relief from the normal sorts of messages that emanate from the Cymraeg side of the discourse.
I, and I am sure many more, from my side of the argument, will thank you for it.
Well said, ....enjoy it while you can, and hopefully it will prosper in the way you hope it will,.... and as you say, without the presures brought in by legislationary measures.
For which we will all be thankful.
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No one is asking for anything other than the equal treatment of Welsh and English in Wales. We are a bilingual country and as a monoglot english speaker I believe that we should ensure that Welsh is given equal status. Of course this argument will disappear as soon as Wales becomes fully bilingual which will happen within a generation.
Only a bigot could deny the rights of Welsh speakers in Wales. They are the people who every day are forced to speak English whether they wish it or not. No fairminded Welsh person could possibly oppose equal status for Welsh. Not superiority but equality. The phrase in Welsh is "Chwarae teg". Only an anti Welsh bigot could reject that request and thankfully they are being increasingly marginalised.
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In reply to mapexx no 80.
Thank you for your well-meaning words. Diolch.
I really do feel that we should all live in harmony. Nation by nation. Culture by culture. Language by language. Follow that philosophy and you can’t go far wrong! I may be naive but this is the approach that I have always taken.
By the tone of your reply, I believe that you may think that my reference to bigotry and xenophobia applies only to those that some bloggers have termed 'nationalists' of the Welsh kind. That is not so.
Each and every blogger here needs to look at what they are advocating. 'Nationalists' are there on both 'sides'. But, think about it - nationalism need not be a derogatory term. It just means that one is proud of one's roots and one's identity.
Until we can embrace each others’ beliefs, language and culture we will never live in harmony and will never respect each others' rights to individuality.
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In reply to Trechu.
I am not as confident as you that we will become bilingual in a generation.
In Carmarthenshire there is heated 'consultation' going on at the moment regarding reform of secondary education in the Dinefwr area. WAG wants better access to the whole range of14 to 19 curriculum for all pupils. Carmarthen County Council is advocating that two schools in one of the valleys in this area close and open as one new one - still on two sites. They are proposing one Category 2A or 1 school [ 2A = 80% of subjects in Welsh or even 1 = 100% subjects in Welsh] with no provision for those that cannot or do not wish to have all their education through the medium of Welsh! This will mean for some children up to 50 miles round trip each day for what should be rightfully theirs within their own community. This is not supporting bilingualism. This is encouraging further division. It is dividing the community and will result in the institutionalisation of the language - segregating those who speak it and those who don't.
Is that what we want?
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Message 82....
"Of course this argument will disappear as soon as Wales becomes fully bilingual which will happen within a generation."
Oh! no it will not.
But to call Wales a bilingual nation is wrong on two counts,
a: it's not a 'nation'
b: it's a complete misnomer to call any region bilingual, when only about 10% use a different language than the remaining number, be it 80 or more or less %.
No one is denying the 'rights' of people, be they native born Welsh, or incomers, to speak the language they were born to use, or decide to learn.
Nor is anyone forcing people to use a language they are not familiar with.
Except of course the Anglo majority, who are, in fact, being 'forced' to accept Cymraeg in erey walk of life, since this lot took over in Cardiff Bay.
English is the major language here in Wales, it would be an extremely rare or downright obtuse person who could not, or would not, be able to conduct a conversation on any matter, be it personal or commercial, in English.
Your pathetic comments almost brings a tear to my eye,.... in a pigs ear they do.
Marginalised???
80% against 10, to a possible 20%, most of whom can hardly get by saying Bora Da to one another, before reverting to English in order to continue.
I am afraid it is you, and yours, that are 'marginalised' and the more you play your hand, in the way you do, the greater the fall will be in the end.
You not only alienate the Anglo majority, but as can be seen from messages from other less strident fluents, many of your own language speakers, as well.
They recognise the damage being done to the language by such commentary, as you have just put forward.
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Comments like those made by mapexx 82 really make my bood boil!!
While I do not want Welsh to be rammed down anyone's throat neither do I like the bigotry shown in his/her post.
For goodness sake, Wales has a language and culture of its own. It should be embraced by those who can and wish to do so. It should be nurtured for future generations. But it should also be 'big' enough to allow other languages to be spoken alongside - be it English, Polish or other language of the world.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Again to mapexx. Post 85.
We are a nation. And proud of it.
It is comments like yours that really makes one wonder whether the word tolerance is in the English language?
Or do you just like winding people up??
Doing so about one's heritage is not a good idea.
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Mapexx.
Those on your side of the argument seem to have disserted you.
If this is your genuine opinion then you deserve all the bigoted comments that come your way!!!
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I am about to close for the night.
I have been browsing the blogg areas and now understand that it is mapexx's disposition to be contrary and to wind people up.
This is sad. Discussion is one thing but the comments made by mapexx makes one wonder whether it is just for amusement, like feeding Christians to the lions, or whether he/she is so insecure he/she has to have a go at everyone else.
Sad.
Nos da
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message 86,....
No, you are wrong, Wales does NOT have a language and culture of it's own.
There is a very very small minority of people who just happen to be used to conducting their conversations and possibly maintaining a tenuous grasp on a language and remnant few fragments of some ancient 'culture' but they do NOT represent the Wales that I, and 80% of Welsh people live in.
You take more than your fair share, in claiming what YOU hold dear to be the centre of Welshness. It is not 'held dear' by approximately 80% of the population.
I support you, and your belief in, and your adherence to your language, but it is NOT the language of Wales, it is, as stated, the language of a very very small minority, who happen to live in Wales, but wish to live in Cymru.
Most people in Wales do not wish for that, if anything they are totally disinterested in Cymru, the language, and what you perceive to be Cymraeg culture.
That is the hard facts of the matter., and no amount of emotiveness will alter those facts.
Message 88.....
If this region is a 'nation', then I am living in a different region to you. Or rather, YOU are living on a different planet to me.
I recognise only the accepted international parameters of nationhood, emotion does not do it for me.
I am a political animal, and live in reality not some dream scape fairyland where a wish is all that is required to make things come real.
Also, I am an extremely tolerant person, but within boundaries, which are set in logic, facts and reality,.... not wishful thinking.
Maybe, if you people ceased your eternal and emotional bleating about Wales being something that the vast majority in Britain cannot recognise, then perhaps you would be taken more seriously, and assisted far more generously than you are being.
One's heritage is one of those invisible factors that really gets my goat,..
What heritage?
My heritage is one of poverty, abuse by society, being down trodden by the likes of the coal and iron masters of years gone by, and of trying to keep my financial head above the poverty line.
, I have no time for wasters who think I owe Wales something for the privilege of being Welsh.
Heritage, ...rubbish,... the best you can do for heritage is an annual gathering, to which, even though I am Welsh I am effectively, certainly linguistically, barred because it has been ordained that only Cymraeg can be spoken, or used, on the MAES.
And, which is an invention of quite recent date. As with most, so called, cultural gatherings, in this region.
There is nothing in the history if my family, or I would guess, in the families of many in Wales, that can be held to be proud of.
The language you are always on about was basically allowed, by the Welsh themselves, to decline as they found it more practical to take up English.
It is also, only because the modern Wales, subsidised to the hilt by our neighbour, that tolerates us expending ever larger sums of their taxes to promote the resurgence of Cymraeg, that allows it to grow.
All you lot can do is castigate England and the British Taxpaying public for it's aid in revitalising your opted for language.
It is you that should be ashamed of yourselves, not the English speaking Welsh of whom you are so scathing.
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Cysondeb, I also have seen some of his previous posts. He is nothing more than a cybertroll who attempts to destroy decent bloggs with his unpleasant views. Non of his assertions can be verified as they are nothing more than the product of a sick anti Welsh imagination.
Thankfully few if any of the general population agree with him. His sort will die out as Welsh becomes more and more common within our comunities. You might not believe this but he reckons he is a member of MENSA! If that is the case the rest of us are veritable Einsteins! His views are the views of unthinking bigotry and should be treated as such.
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I am not scathing of the English. I embrace them as I do all other nationalities. It is the likes of you that I am concerned about. An individual with a massive chip on your shoulder!! Is that because you have lived in Wales all your life and never wanted to learn the language? I worry about the future of mankind with feelings and attitudes like yours.
To go back to what I said in an earlier blogg - Wales does have a culture and language. It may well have been marginalised in the past - maybe the 'Welsh Not' had something to do with that!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Have you heard about the WN??????Or do I need to give a history lesson?
The WN was a means by some English 'experts' to discourage the Welsh language - where many pupils had a lashing at the end of the day for speaking their native language.
A recovery has been made since then and the language has made a 'turnaround'. Recent cencuses/censi can prove that.
We the Welsh have a language and a culture of our own. Maybe you need to visit some areas of Wales outside your closeknit, anglisised community to see the language and culture in action. You may see then that Wales does have areas where they say more than Bore Da to each other.
This is where I really see why other bloggers have seemed 'nationalistic'!!
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Thanks for the support Trechu.
He is not really worth responding to. I am new to the site but will be vigilant in future.
He's having a laugh!!
From one Einstein to another.
Nos da.
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Re 91
Perhaps the most meaningless sentence ever written :
"No, you are wrong, Wales does NOT have a language and culture of it's own."
Quite extraordinary! I would like to see any of the other British nationalists present explain/defend that one.
mapexx has already shown himself to be a moral coward today, and now this latest entry. Think of a grainy black and white film, uniforms and a silly moustache ...
Just so that you know, mappy, the first Eisteddfod was held in Aberteifi by Lord Rhys in 1172. And before you say it, yes it was very different to the present day festival - fancy that!
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cysondeb
Welsh Not.....
Since education in this period was neither free nor compulsory, it can only be assumed that parents endorsed the practice when and where it was used through the wallet. Following the Local Government Act 1888, there is no evidence that the intermediate schools, in which instruction was almost universally in English, made use of the "not".
During the period when the WN was used in a very small number of schools, families in those parts of Wales considered the learning of English was a step towards a better future within the British Empire, this was true in the context of Victorian Britain. It follows then, the WN was a Welsh educational contrivance not linked to Westminster and the British government of the day.
Your use of the expression "English 'experts'" in the context of the WN is provocative, anti-English, and indeed a corruption of the facts to support a failing Welsh Nationalist cabal in 21st century Wales.
cysondeb, your intolerance towards mapexx because he considers the Welsh language to be irrelevant is very Plaid. FiDafydd suggesting mapexx is similar to a 20th century Fascist dictator is very Plaid. Trechu who reverts to name calling is very Plaid. Has Plaid Cymru launched another attack in order to quell opposition, probably?
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message 96,
Another who cannot read and comprehend.
Instead of shooting off at the mouth, looking for insult and antipathy, why not, at least make an attempt to see that your views of MY HOMELAND are not the only ones available.
There are many who also feel the same as I, and make their views apparent on these and other blogs, they too get the same sort of insulting rhetoric.
The difference between the opposing viewpoints, when placed on these blogs, is, we do not get over personal in responding.
We tend to , generally, stick to the point,. not go off on a rant, of an insulting and personal nature.
I try very hard to keep my messages very general in their content, but that is not good enough for many with opposing points of view, which I am sure is readily witnessed by the more rational, as demonstrating they have lost the plot, they cannot get over their point in a sane manner, and so resort to vindictive remarks and childish inanity.
It is patently obvious, my messages are destroying their argument at every turn.
Oh! well, so be it, I can take all they can throw,
However the mud sticks on them, as I am 'Teflon' coated.
I am just as permitted to make my views clear, as are you people, it's called free speech, unlike you, lot, the moderators recognise it, that is why they take no notice of your perpetual attempts to shut me up.
The problem with you lot is you are stuck in some sort of time warp, and cannot see through your rose coloured specs just what is happening out in the big wide world outside of your minuscule enclosed little mental enclaves.
Some examples of the name calling...
Message 92.... Cybertroll, sick anti Welsh imagination, unthinking bigotry.
Message 94...." he's not worth responding to"
Oh! yes, and you are? What a silly person.
Message 95....
"mapexx has already shown himself to be a moral coward today, and now this latest entry. Think of a grainy black and white film, uniforms and a silly moustache ..."
Message 96....
ill thought out ignorant rant, this ignoramus, unpleasant and unbalanced comments, sick mind (again). bigot.
Now I am certain there was nothing personal in any of those,..... were there?
One simply has to wonder why, and what is behind all of this personal attack regime, is it being directed and if so, by whom, or what??
Maybe the Moderators should take a bit more of an in depth look at much of the rhetoric emanating from the writers of the messages mentioned above. It is obviouis they follow a single track agenda in their postings.
Or do I really have to make my antipathy to such deliberate blog destroying , and very personal and insulting messages, clear to higher levels in the BBC?
To say I am tired of these people, and their constant nasty mindedness, as I am sure others also are, is really understating my feelings in the matter.
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message 97.....
Final remarks in the message appreciated Stony.
But is it not amazing, considering the heading of this blog, how immature some of these people really are?
Even after complimenting them for their attachment to, and support for their chosen language, theycome back with all guns blazing, as though one has personally walked into their home, and shot their granny.
Must be something I said, I suppose. Mmmmm!
As someone famous once said,
"There''s nowt as funny as folk"
But he never had to contend with rabid language nuts and nationalistic danger mice.
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Methinks that The Stonemason may have descended from members of the Westminster parliament of the 1800s whose report about the use of the Welsh language was the beginning of the fall in the use of the Welsh language.
There were disparaging remarks about the Welsh in the report that became known as ‘Treachery of the Blue Books’. The English set about sorting out the education in Wales by introducing their language. This is not said to be provocative as The Stonemason suggests. It is historical fact. It may not have been law but it was employed due to strong support from those that supported the report! To say that parents endorsed it is a travesty. It was enforced and if parents wanted their children to be educated to have a better life than their pityful existence – which is what most parents strive for – they had to put up with the practice. Please do not imply that 'we' accepted it with grace!
Mapexx – yes you ‘complemented’ me for my attachment to my language. But you then go on to suggest that because I am attached to my language I am a ‘rabid language nut and a nationalistic danger mouse’.
May I suggest that you refrain from lumping anyone who feels strongly about their own language and identity as ‘rabid language nuts and nationalistic danger mice’.
Some of us are fighting hard for English speaking Welsh and non-Welsh [ the majority of these being English] individuals to have the choice of English speaking education in their area.
If this is what I am fighting for - to be derided for being Welsh speaking and proud of it - then maybe I need to rethink!!! Maybe I need to support the group that it advocating Welsh medium education only, which would result in a significant number of children having to move out of their community for their education!!! Be careful mapexx or you will lose any support that we have for the English language in Wales.
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#97 TheStonemason wrote:
"....there is no evidence that the intermediate schools, in which instruction was almost universally in English, made use of the "not"."
The curriculum of the intermediate or county schools, the outcome of the Welsh Intermediate Education Act (1889) almost entirely excluded Welsh, even in the heartlands of rural Wales, such as Caernarfonshire.
It is interesting to read Owen M Edwards' comments as Examiner at the two Caernarfonshire schools in 1894.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/InterSchools.html
At the Caernarfon County School Edwards deigns to suggest, "I believe that the teaching of Welsh, and the occasional teaching of subjects like History in Welsh, would greatly tend in developing the children's minds."
Whilst at Bottwnog, " The boys who have only just come in can hardly put an English sentence together or correct the most evident mistakes in English composition; while the senior boys express their thoughts in English with comparative ease, and their answers to the questions I set in Scripture and Agriculture were very creditable. This shows the difficulties under which the masters labour, and it shows at the same time what excellent work they are doing."
And, "The girls as well as the boys are evidently encouraged to read at home. I told the girls that, in correcting idioms literally translated-e.g. 'to keep a sound',---they might if they liked explain the mistakes by reference to Welsh. I found from their answers that they could write excellently in Welsh. This, of course, they must have been taught at home."
The last sentence says it all.
Are we to be surprised at the decline of the Welsh Language after centuries of being taught that 'English is best', 'Welsh is useless'?
But we are still here, and we won't go away. Although there have been tremendous efforts to destroy the Language down the years, it has not been destroyed and isn't going to be destroyed by an Anglo-centric political system, despite the anti-Welsh diatribes of the tiny monority on this blog.
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cysondeb your ....
"Methinks that The Stonemason etc."
If this is an attempt to insult, water off .....
You need more research....
The Treachery of the Blue Books (published 1854) was written by Robert Jones Derfel a Welsh poet and political writer.
The historical fact you refer to is .....
"Reports of the commissioners of enquiry into the state of education in Wales" published 1847.
Robert Jones wrote a series of poems which he eventually published himself, the poems took from the Report (called Blue Books as all parliamentary reports are bound in that colour) a form of character assassination, they were based on extracts that were not particularly kind towards the social conditions in Wales in certain northerly parts. To appreciate this report I might suggest you read it, on-line, the report was a compilation of facts, figures and observations supplied by Welsh people. Unfortunately these people were the Welsh establishment who looked unkindly upon the nonconformist population.
The result of the report had far more positive outcomes than the negative insults still felt today by our thin skinned brethren. It was an education system that eventually captured the vast majority of people from every part of the UK, it developed into what we have today, imperfect though that might be, our schools.
We disparaged each other then, much as we do today, except nowadays the vast majority are able to do it with confidence. Your prejudices are very apparent, they are towards all that would disagree, a typically Plaid response.
Your .....
"Please do not imply that 'we' accepted it with grace!"
I did not imply anything, it is a statement of fact, until the Local Government Act 1888 the only education available was local. Read the report and discover the truth, the truth is enlightening, a wonderful testament to how we in Wales tried to educate children. Until this Act parents paid for education.
There is no travesty, it is history, I think remarkable, wallow in self-pity if you wish, but don't bring untruths to a debate, they are not wanted.
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Mapexx
83 - my first response to you does not personally attack you or anyone else. It is totally within the bounds of common courtesy.
I made an error in the number of the blogg in my reply no 86. It should have been mapexx 85 Sorry if this seemed to refer to Trechu.
Nowhere have I made any personal attack. My blogg name should give you a clue as to my nature! You have a dictionary to hand - that will give the translation.
Destructive rhetoric on my part? Attempted character assassination on my part? Are we reading the same bloggs? I see words from your very own posts, such as rabid language nut; nationalistic danger mouse; sickos!
Can I also pick you up on 92. I missed this last night!
'All you lot can do is castigate England and the British Taxpaying public for it's aid in revitalising your opted for language.
It is you that should be ashamed of yourselves, not the English speaking Welsh of whom you are so scathing.'
Firstly I am a British tax payer!!! No more to say there.
Secondly, yes our language needs to be supported. And if you are, as you state, a political animal [your blogg 101 - 'standpoint of studied and logic political assessment'] you will know that while English is supported throughout the world as an International language - and I am in support of that - so are many many indiginous languages being supported all over the world in order for peoples to keep their identity. Why should we in Wales be any different?
Thirdly, I am not scathing of English speaking Welsh. I am fighting for their rights. If you had read blogg 84 you would have realised that.
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Re The Stonemason 103
We can all read what we wish from the history books. Surfice it to say that the report itself also became known to many as the 'Treachery of the Blue Books'. This may have been after Robert Jones Derfel wrote about it but surely this is splitting hairs!!!
I suggest that you read all my posts and then decide whether I am predjudiced.
I believe in the need to support and speak the Welsh language. That does not imply that everyone must. But the opportunity and choice should be available. That does not make me predjudiced.
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brynt41, you lost the plot at #102.
The observations I made were not related to education in Wales, they were related to the "Welsh Not".
The report that you refer to, is confirmation that following the investigation by parliament, education was moving forward in Wales.
I see Edwards report as evidence of excellence, look at the subject range; I read his comments with delight when he wrote.....
"I selected the brightest and most backward; and a careful "viva voce" examination made me come to the conclusion, not only that these children have been most efficiently trained, but that Carnarvon possesses a school so promising that it would not be impossible, with a little effort, to make it the best intermediate school in Wales."
Now, I am Welsh, and when I read words such as that, I am proud of my ancestors, and the British government with its Welsh representatives, and in particular William Williams, the Member of Parliament for Coventry (but originally from Carmarthenshire) without whom the Blue Books would have been a long time coming, and we might remember the report reviled by so many caused education to spread throughout the UK. 60 million British people would be grateful if they only knew.
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message 104....
I refer you to messages 86, 88, 89, 90, 93 and 94.
Yours I believe?
Perhaps your initial error was to refer to message 82, attributing it to me.
It all went downhill thereafter.
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The Stoneman 106
With ref to
"I selected the brightest and most backward; and a careful "viva voce" examination made me come to the conclusion, not only that these children have been most efficiently trained....."
You think that 'training' is education?
You also state that Edwards' report is evidence of excellence.
Education at that time was rote learning and repetition! It was deemed good if children could converse and write in English, and to turn their backs on the Welsh lahguage - hence the WN. Do you really believe that this was the best way to educate our young children?
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107 Mapexx
There was no error in who I was replying to - just the number of the blogg!!!As well you know.
If you look back at my bloggs you will find many questions aimed at you? They are not rhetorical ones. I wanted answers to try to work out where you are comming from. With no answers I have to make my judgement solely on the comments made.
I still think you are having a laugh.
Sad
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cysondeb,
"Reports of the commissioners of enquiry into the state of education in Wales" published 1847 is not a "history book", it is a reference book described by Saunders Lewis as "the most important nineteenth-century historical documents we possess"
The Treachery of the Blue Books are the thoughts of Robert Jones Derfel after reading the report, thoughts that focused on very small parts of the report. A book of poems.
I do not see the difference as "splitting hairs", it tells me you have read neither, I have only read the report, so can only debate the facts.
Your prejudice is apparent in your choice of words.....
"Methinks that The Stonemason may have descended from members of the Westminster parliament of the 1800s whose report about the use of the Welsh language was the beginning of the fall in the use of the Welsh language."
..... I would be very proud to have William Williams, the Member of Parliament for Coventry as my ancestor.
I think you should read the report before using it without knowledge of its contents. But if you did, what then, the realisation that so much has been made of so little.
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Hafod, Swansea – 1847 – Inspection at the Hafod Copperworks School:
23 children were selected to read a simple passage about pins and it was found that only 8 of them could read it with any approach to accuracy. However, 19 of them were only Welsh speaking and if they had been asked to read the Scriptures in Welsh would have done so fluently. All books were in English and their contents had to be explained to children in Welsh.
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cysondeb
In 1894 Edwards used the word "training", we in 2009 use the word "education".
Linguistics across time I'm afraid, no mileage there.
Your.....
"You also state that Edwards' report is evidence of excellence."
It is a report about the schools and what was being achieved and where Edwards could see the future, of course it is about excellence.
your last paragraph at #108
As I wrote earlier.....
Following the Local Government Act 1888, there is no evidence that the intermediate schools, in which instruction was almost universally in English, made use of the "not".
Before the Act there is little evidence but a great deal of Nationalist rhetoric surrounding its use.
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In a notorious 1847 Parliamentary report into education in Wales the Welsh language (and morals) were castigated. Following this report the Welsh language was actively discouraged in schools by means including the Welsh Not, although never officially.
The mid-19th century was a turbulent period in Welsh history. Popular risings and riots broke out across the country (Newport 1831; Rebecca Riots; Chartists etc.). Questions were raised in Westminster as to why the Welsh people were prone to lawlessness. According to some, one possible explanation was the continued existence of the Welsh language. After a speech in 1846 by William Williams, a Welsh MP representing Coventry, a Parliamentary report was commissioned on the role of Welsh in education.
The report eventually became known as the Treachery of the Blue Books – blue from the colour of the reports’ covers. When published in 1847 it caused a furore – particularly certain passages in which the commissioners exceeded their brief to make disparaging remarks about the morals of the Welsh.
Predictably, the report found the provision of education in Wales to be extremely poor. The English commissioners, who could not speak Welsh, saw the Welsh language as a drawback and noted that the moral and material condition of the people would only improve with the introduction of English. They stated “through no other medium than a common language can ideas become common.” The inspectors were three monoglot Anglican barristers from England.
Wales had no national institutions or any united voice to respond or to defend itself. The morals being abhorred by the commissioners were, ironically, Methodist chapel going, tea total and hard working! Here began the feeling within the Welsh people that they were "not as good as the English" and that whatever they did should be compared to the English standard. A disempowering 'uncle Tom' syndrome which remains today.
This period is associated with that most hated symbol of English cultural oppression, The Welsh Not, a means of forcing Welsh children to speak English at school. A stick or plaque was given to any child heard speaking Welsh during school, to be handed on to whoever spoke the language. At the end of the lesson, the child left with the Welsh Not was flogged. The child could only get rid of it by betraying someone else he heard committing a similar offence. A child so punished was termed “corryn”. Another punishment was to make the child stand on one leg in the corner with the “Welsh Stick” in her/his mouth. The effects of such abuse was to greatly reinforce the image of Welsh as an inferior language and gutter tongue. A significant number of Welsh schoolteachers saw it as their duty not just to introduce their pupils to the world of the English language, but to eradicate every trace of Welshness they could get their hands on. Over time this created a Welsh people without historical memory and embarrassed of their native language, a process that still continues today.
Parents felt that the English government knew what was good for them and, yes Stonemason, you are right, they stood by and watched.
Although not ever official government policy, it was never prohibited and was actively encouraged. The long term effects of the Language Clause of the 1535 Act of Union, which banned Welsh speakers from public office.
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DanDydin
Very interested, what is the exact reference so that I may read it.
Did you extract the conditions, attendance at and teaching skills relating to this particular report?
No hurry, am out shopping in a while.
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Re. 112
Amazingly I tend to agree with a little of what Stonemason is saying here, but don't agree with its tone. He is right, but I am embarrassed and shamed by the history, he seems to enjoy it and wishes to use it as a stick in this debate.
However, I do not agree with his view that it did not happen after 1888. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence, not least people that I have actually met and talked to about their experiences. Maybe schoolmasters were cuter about how they presented themselves to the authorities? Who knows.
But have things changed that much? Can you have an education in Welsh? Historically up to now:
1920s - 1950s: teachers (even Welsh speaking ones) refused to speak Welsh in class with pupils. Numerous individuals report on how they were surprised to discover many years later that their teachers understood Welsh.
1950 - 1980s: Growing up in a town where 80% of the population were Welsh fist language could I have a Welsh language education? Could I, if I wanted to, be taught chemistry in Welsh? No. It was not available.
1990 - 2009: Less than 20% of education in Wales is through the medium of Welsh. I personally know a number of parents who have requested Welsh language education and the local authority are unable to provide as there are no school places left.
Have things changed? Only in as much as the children aren't whipped any more...
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Thank you Dan Dydin 113 for your historical slant. This supports what I stated earlier. I shall leave the history to you and others. Diolch.
The Stonemason 110 states
"Reports of the commissioners of enquiry into the state of education in Wales" published 1847 is not a "history book", it is a reference book described by Saunders Lewis as "the most important nineteenth-century historical documents we possess"
Surely reports of this era are now history books????
I have not read the report and neither do I intend doing so. Thus I shall leave that to the experts.
As for your 112 TheStonemason
"In 1894 Edwards used the word "training", we in 2009 use the word "education"..... Linguistics across time I'm afraid, no mileage there."
I am afraid I must disagree. As an educationalist I see a vast difference between training and education. Maybe some reading on your part would not go amiss on this subject!!
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When the Chartist miners and iron workers marched on Newport in 1839 The Times correspondent reported that the "ignorant mountaineers" of South Wales had preserved secrecy when planning the rising by "universally making use of the Welch language".
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In 1843 a rather bewildered "Englishman" wrote to the Cambrian after visiting the disturbed Rebecca distrcits, having been met with "suspicion and vindictive animosity". He could not understand how the power of the law could be treated with such contempt and concluded that "a free and open intercourse with Englishmen would greatly improve the tone of society in this country and introduce the community to civilised life."
The seed that was sown in the 1840s still bears fruit. Turn to the correspondence columns of any local newspaper in South Wales, or indeed BBC comment boards, and you will find those who argue that Welsh is a useless tongue whose demise cannot come quickly enough. All in the name of progress of course!
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Re. 114: Stonemason:
One has to laugh along with Stonemason at his request for a reference to the information I gave in message number 111.
In another message he said about the report "On the State of Education in Wales" (known as the Blue Books) that:
"I do not see the difference as "splitting hairs", it tells me you have read neither, I have only read the report, so can only debate the facts."
Brilliant! Ho ho! Because the information I gave in message number 111 comes from... wait for it...drum roll... the Blue Books (or "On the State of Education in Wales), which he claims to have read and suggests others should do so!
A true historian! ;)
If you really want to read the information it can be found here:
Ralph Robert Wheeler Lingen (1847) On the State of Education in Wales. London. William Clowes and Son for the HMSO - page 10 and in detail on page 360
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DanDydin,
Because I asked for the actual location of information you apply ridicule, I had hesitated before asking for the actual location, you exhibited a response I should have anticipated.
There are 3 books, all are in facsimile format so searching for a single item is not possible, as you well know.
You do the readers a disservice by cherry picking the information to tender for consideration, e.g. ....
"23 children were selected to read a simple passage about pins and it was found that only 8 of them could read it with any approach to accuracy."
That passage is true to the report.
The following is your comment .....
"However, 19 of them were only Welsh speaking and if they had been asked to read the Scriptures in Welsh would have done so fluently. All books were in English and their contents had to be explained to children in Welsh."
In fact there is no mention of language fluency in that part of the report, although there is mention of attendance at Sunday school and whether the service was conducted in Welsh or English, from this information you could infer the family use of a particular language and from that you might judge the pupils language skills.
A serious omission is the failure to inform the readers that the average school attendance for boys was an average 2.8 years whilst the girls attendance was 1.17 years average.
Importantly in my view, you discarded ....
speaking of the workmen who paid one penny a week for the school ..... "In general they were apathetic towards education."
There is much more said about this particular school starting at .....
Part 1: Carmarthen, Glamorgan and Pembroke, pages 359-361.
Cherry picking data is .........
cysondeb, if you are an educationalist you would accept by virtue of the subjects taught that the use of the word "training" would equate to "education" today, though the methods of Edwards time could be criticised by modern teachers without charity, no doubt at sometime in the future our current methods will seem as inadequate.
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Education does not equate to training.
If you train someone you are 'coaching' them in a specific skill. This is often linked with training a workforce [as education seems to be heading at the moment!!!!]
Education is a much broader experience and results in an individual experiencing much more than learning to do specific tasks for the workplace. It has an effect on the whole of the individual - the mind, character and ability of theindividual.
Bloggers here have had an education not just training.
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I have just been listening to the Choir of Ysgol Gymraeg Cwmbran singing and competing in a national competition for children's choirs on S4C. Reaching the final (of just 4 choirs) was a tremendous feat in itself. They were quite superb.
They were also wonderfully natural and fluent when interviewed in front of television cameras. They were a credit to Cwmbran and to Gwent.
They are also a credit to Welsh medium education.
Most important of all, they were clearly having the time of their lives. All their faces -of different colours - were lit up throughout.
mapexx would probably mock their efforts and declare it a waste of time in "the real world". I simply thought they were inspiring.
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Re 123
I did not see it but from what you describe it is the result of education not training!!
Ref 121. This sums up the difference.
Diolch FiDafydd. Well timed.
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Re. 121. by TheStonemason:
er... no!
Stonemason wrote: "Because I asked for the actual location of information"
You actually asked for a reference: "Very interested, what is the exact reference so that I may read it."
Stonemason wrote: "There are 3 books, all are in facsimile format so searching for a single item is not possible, as you well know."
How wrong Stonemason is. If he had read the book he would know that the schools are treated in an orderly fashion in a logical geographical manner. It really is very easy to find information on any school in any area.
Stonemason wrote: "A serious omission is the failure to inform the readers that the average school attendance for boys was an average 2.8 years whilst the girls attendance was 1.17 years average."
The point made was that the children could not read English, but were Welsh speaking, as we know is true of Swansea at that time. We also know that literacy was generally higher in Welsh as children were only at school for a few years, but attended Welsh Sunday Schools for years where they were taught to read and write.
Stonemason wrote: "speaking of the workmen who paid one penny a week for the school ..... "In general they were apathetic towards education.""
As were the working class across Britain at this time - not really relevant to the issue of language.
The point being made was that the Blue Books were simply an awful report which failed to gather all the data required to make judgements.
You were also pedantic and 'incorrect' about the name of the Blue Books. Yes, you were being accurate, but also silly. Everyone of every political persuasion now (and has done for about 100 years) calls the report and the historical episode "Brad y Llyfrau Gleision" "The Treason of the Blue Books".
Cherry picking it was not - the facts are:
One school with 23 children tested. 19 were definitely Welsh speaking (probably monoglot) - we know this because they attended Welsh language Sunday School where Welsh literacy was taught. While it is probable that the other 4 were also Welsh speaking, but attended English Sunday School. The inspectors, in their wisdom, asked the children to read out an English document.
The Blue Books changed the psyche of the Welsh people for 150 years+ and still has a huge impact. Why else would we even be discussing the language today. Why would some be talking of English being the language of progress etc.
Let our children speak Mandarin or Spanish too eh? Yup, that's the Blue Books...
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On Welsh language literacy - I note that a number of individuals have mentioned the old myth that large numbers of Welsh speakers are not literate in Welsh.
Yes, it's true, and mostly down to education received. However it is important to realise that Welsh speakers have better Welsh language literacy than the equivalent for the English language.
Evidence? BASIC SKILLS AGENCY's "ASSESSING PROFICIENCY IN READING AND WRITING WELSH - WRITTEN REPORT ON FINDINGS - MARCH - SEPTEMBER 2004" - all available on the web of course.
This was the first ever survey of Welsh literacy amongst adults in Wales. 1,363 Welsh speakers of ages between 16-64 participated.
There is a comparison between Welsh and English:
59% of Welsh speakers had the second highest level of understanding, spelling, writing and punctuation - the second highest level being enough to pass a GCSE at grades D-E.
English in comparison had 37% at the second highest level.
So literacy at this level:
Welsh = 59%
English = 37%
When looking at the highest level (GCSE at grades A-C) they were similar and not significant:
Welsh = 37%
English = 38%
Interestingly BRMB Social Research found in a different survey that 25% of adults in England have English literacy skills lower than the second highest level (i.e. GCSE at grades D-E).
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I remember watching a David Lean film called Lawrence of Arabia. There's a line in it where a character says " This is a side show of a side show."
Here it is again.
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message 109....
Now I know I can be annoying to the Nat's and nuts, but it seems I can refuse to answer questions, and many of them, without ever being asked any.
I suggest you go back to ALL of your own messages, and tell me, apart from a couple that were more or less rhetorical ones and not worth bothering with, just where you asked me any questions at all.
I will concede one point, that can only be valid however, if you asked me questions under another identity, because you certainly have not asked me any under the name you posted message 109.
If that is the case, then how am I expected to know just who the hell you are, coming back at me as a multi identity poster of messages?
I must say, your style is rather different, but you are coming over in the same vein as that other chappie, Di Fi or Pinocchio as I prefer to call him, because he is a outright liar and his wooden nose grows every time he sends in a message, of similar type to this 109 from you, which claims I have not answered message I have never received.
As Harry Enfield used to ask...
...... " Is it me?"
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Re 128
Don't worry about it, cysondeb, it's nothing personal. mapexx doesn't answer questions, or have the guts to justify some of the bigotry towards the language that is his stock and trade. Both of us 'chuntering natives' are merely 'idiots' (a mapexx favourite) for speaking that 'antique' and 'useless' language.
Having run out of ideas, he has recently raised the level of debate to a fixation with the nose of a wooden doll. Far above our intellectual level of course. He certainly thinks he's clever, and it's all very funny really. Though not as funny as his written English.
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Trechu, your #130 .....
..... where you isolate and abuse opposition, a typical Nationalist response to the Union.
Mapexx and myself are of opposite political views, yet are able to disagree without your particular form of hostile rhetoric.
If opposition to your views are treated with such hostility in a blog, it is obvious that were Plaid to gain real power there would be a catastrophe in Wales.
You do have something in common with the other Cybernats ..... self-pity.
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I failed to add to the last comment .....
It is fortunate that our children look to the United Kingdom, Europe, the Far East and the America's for their future, rather than backwards into the perverse history distributed by Cybernats. The Welsh people have not been treated differently to any other group in the United Kingdom.
Even during tender years they realise there is little to gain by wallowing in the separatist self-pity, they prefer the computer games or contemporary music, they prefer the future. Your politics can only succeed by stealth, that was lost when the recent LCO's were returned.
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Well mapexx, to pick up on your blogg 128.
You may have assumed rhetoric in my questions but I really was interested in answers.
I am convinced that you are just having a laugh. You are spoiling for a fight with each comment that is made.
As for suggesting that FiDafydd and I are one and the same - what utter tosh!! Have you read our bloggs - you obviously haven't!! You certainly haven't read any of mine that refer to my campaign to allow English speaking Welsh and non Welsh individuals to continue their education within their own community, instead of - as county proposals suggest - travelling up to 40 miles each day for English medium education.
You cannot seem to get it into your head that many Welsh speaking Welsh are in support of non-Welsh speakers. This in itself encourages more individuals to attempt our language. This is why its use is growing.
Why can we not be 'nationalistic' [as you put it] about our language and culture whilst embracing those that are less so? - This is not a rhetorical question. It is aimed at you mapexx. Just in case you were not sure whether it was a question or not.
I still think you are having a laugh, or are so narrow minded that anyone else's viewpoint is deemed 'wrong'.
It is children and young people that see things as black or white. When we grow up and become adults we begin to see that there is a hell of a lot of grey between those to poles!!!
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message 133,
Maybe you would be so kind as to repeat the 'questions' that you say are there, but that I cannot find in any of your messages, be assured if you can do so they WILL be answered.
However as I stated, I can find no relevant questions in any of your past messages aimed at me for answers.
Also please tell me where I stated that you and Pinocchio were one and the same.
I think you should brush up on both your reading skills, and your capacity for comprehending what you actually see before you, when reading. As I said, it's all well and good scanning the prose, but somehow I think you do it far too fast for your own good. And then have the audacity to blame me for your own errors. Another similar trait to found in the messages from Pinocchio.
On a personal basis I don't give a fig whether you 'support' non Cymraeg matters or not, that is your choice, as is your choice in Cymraeg matters.
What anyone does on a personal basis is OK by me, and immaterial to the content of this blog.
Where I start getting raised hackles is when that personal agenda is thrust into my face via taxation being stolen by a minority group, with an extremely dodgy claim it is their 'democratic' right to be able to so steal my tax funds.
And when the messages become highly persoanl and nothing at all to do with the content of my argument, but refer to other message bnoard content and as usual slide into personally injurious insult.
Do you really wish to be tarred with the same brush?
The reason you cannot be nationalistic about your language is simple, it does not remain at that basic level, once nationalists get control, no matter what 'tool' they use in gaining that control, it invariably becomes the weapon of use to beat down any opposition, especially when it can be seen openly,.... think Jews, Blacks, Catholics, gays, gypsy's, mental disabled's etc. etc etc
It has an historical background over many centuries, but for some unfathomable reason you cannot link this seemingly irrelevant matter of language and nationalist agenda? why not. Let me have YOUR answer.
That is why Germany fell to the Nazi's, most pre WW2 Europe and Russia to the pogroms against Jews, the white supremacists taking Blacks from Africa as they were just sub humans, therefore expolitable, and so on, down the annals of history.
How soon we forget the obvious signs on the path to Armaggeddon. Obviously our standards of education are really not all they are cracked up to be after all.
Well get this, it is not going to happen here in MY HOMELAND just because a bunch of myopic fellow travellers think the march to independence is a done deal.
Please don't now say you have not been answered.
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MY HOMELAND? -Mappex? THat sounds suspiciously close to "Country" or "Nation" to me....you are losing your touch.....
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Re 131
Stonemason,
Are you really saying mapexx does not deploy 'hostile rhetoric'? I just take it then that his kind of 'hostile rhetoric' doesn't upset you ...
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Re 134
Why does mapexx believe that no one else on this blog is able to read and comprehend? It's the line of someone who has lost the argument, and all that remains is abuse and anger.
Would he not agree that the abuse of Jews, blacks, Catholics etc. have all been trademarks of the British state? Aren't Catholics still barred from being head of state?
You said:
"The reason you cannot be nationalistic about your language is simple, it does not remain at that basic level, once nationalists get control, no matter what 'tool' they use in gaining that control ..."
Do you mean gaining a democratic mandate to form, lead or be a part of a democratically elected government?
Actually I've never known anyone more nationalistic about any language than mapexx is about English!
And when you attempt to equate perfectly reasonable and democratic aspirations with the Nazi regime in Germany then it is quite clear that you are deluded and desperate.
His use of 'MY HOMELAND' recently is very interesting ...
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message 137,...
I respond to this load of codwallop for one reason Pinocchio....
....None of my messages are aimed to, or at, you.
So please refrain from mentioning my name.
Also do not answer for other people, because YOU will get absolutely no more from me.
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Message 135....
No it does not,..... it simply means the 'land' where my house is situated. ergo: my HOME.
I occasionally refrain from using 'region' because I am so well aware of how it throws you Nat's and nuts in paroxysms of anger, resulting in a bilious responding mode.
I suggest you refer to your dictionary, English or Cymraeg, they both say the same thing.
If I meant 'Land' in the meaning of
'Nation', I would not actually use the term, I would say' nation', at all other times I refer to Wales as a region of the UK.
Where are you getting confused?
More to the point, why are you getting confused?
My English is perfectly understandable.
At least to others, who do not come back with all sorts of silly remarks, hoping to catch me out.
The reasom why it is so, is because I do not state anythjing that can be found to contain innuendos, or implications, I state as is, if you cannot accept that, then do as I have requested your pal Pinocchio to do, and don't respond to anything I write.
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FiDafydd, your 136 .....
"Are you really saying mapexx does not deploy 'hostile rhetoric'? I just take it then that his kind of 'hostile rhetoric' doesn't upset you ..."
..... I would enjoy being able to continue discussions between 7 a.m. and about now, but I am out at work, a lowly stonemason.....
cysondeb, Dewi_H, FiDafydd, having read the posts of today, I am surprised that mapexx has not lost his cool, there is no doubt that an outsider looking in might consider it was a case of deliberate and coordinated provocation.
As a Conservative Unionist I would defend every person that posts the right to his or her freedom of speech, within the law, so am I upset, of course not.
It is no longer a debate about "a growing maturity", it is about discrediting the person, it is about wearing the person down, it is in effect about silencing opposition to Plaid Cymru.
..............................
Getting back to the real issue .....
Devolution was not designed to either:
1. destroy the British Constitution.
2. be a precursor to separation.
Both are linked to the Plaid Cymru's intentions for the near future.
Westminster has become aware of the actions of Plaid Cymru and Rhodri Morgan using LCO's as precursors to an attempt at Independence. The recent scrutiny by parliament is the evidence.
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Mapexx 134
You really cannot find any questions? And you pick me up on not being able to read, comprehend, scan etc ? The questions have been repeated here for your responses.
Remember these are not rhetorical questions. I really would like to have answers, as I've been assured by you that I will [134]. Here we go.
Q1 [88] Or do you just like winding people up??
Q2 [93] I am not scathing of the English. I embrace them as I do all other nationalities. It is the likes of you that I am concerned about. An individual with a massive chip on your shoulder!! Is that because you have lived in Wales all your life and never wanted to learn the language?
Q3 [93] To go back to what I said in an earlier blogg - Wales does have a culture and language. It may well have been marginalised in the past - maybe the 'Welsh Not' had something to do with that!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Have you heard about the WN??????Or do I need to give a history lesson?
Q4 [104] Destructive rhetoric on my part? Attempted character assassination on my part? Are we reading the same bloggs?
Q5 [104] Secondly, yes our language needs to be supported. And if you are, as you state, a political animal [your blogg 101 - 'standpoint of studied and logic political assessment'] you will know that while English is supported throughout the world as an International language - and I am in support of that - so are many many indiginous languages being supported all over the world in order for peoples to keep their identity. Why should we in Wales be any different?
Q6 [133] Why can we not be 'nationalistic' [as you put it] about our language and culture whilst embracing those that are less so? - This is not a rhetorical question. It is aimed at you mapexx. Just in case you were not sure whether it was a question or not.
Please don't pick me up on the fact that I have included some statements and not questions - I do realise this but thought I would keep the questions in context for you.
On the other thing you picked me up on.
Your implication is clear to all in no 128 that I am writing as another of the bloggers on here. The name mentioned by you was FiDafydd. I stated in my 133 that you 'suggested' - maybe I should have said 'implied'!! Apologies!! However, to be as pedantic as you have been - I did not say you 'stated' - I said you 'suggested'! Do I now tell you that you are not able to read, comprehend, scan.................?
The fact that you say you do not give a fig about whether I support non Welsh matters or not really does show you up as someone who only wants to see the bad in everything. Continually looking for ways to insult people is your trademark. You are not really worth bothering with.
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Mapexx the question at the head of this page is
'To what extent do you agree or disagree with the following statement? "There is a need to create new laws to help promote the Welsh language and also to ensure that Welsh speakers have more opportunities to use the language when using some services". '
Are we digressing? Or do you really believe that this is the slippery slope to behaving like the Nazis!?!
You say
'The reason you cannot be nationalistic about your language is simple, it does not remain at that basic level, once nationalists get control, no matter what 'tool' they use in gaining that control, it invariably becomes the weapon of use to beat down any opposition, especially when it can be seen openly,.... think Jews, Blacks, Catholics, gays, gypsy's, mental disabled's etc. etc etc '
What are you on about? What do you mean?
You are not interested in the 'norm' or the 'average' joe bloggs. You just see extremes. What about Mr or Mrs Ordinary who just wants to be able to use their mother tongue? [Not a rhetorical question].
You also state
'It has an historical background over many centuries, but for some unfathomable reason you cannot link this seemingly irrelevant matter of language and nationalist agenda? why not. Let me have YOUR answer.'
By 'it' I assume you mean language. On the one hand you say 'it' is irrelevant and then you see it as a concern because it is on the nationalists agenda! Which is it to be?
To go back to 'nationalistic about your language'. Wasn't that what the English were when they 'conquered' massive parts of the world. They introduced their language in all four corners of the world. [Please don't correct me - I do know the world is round!]This is why it is recognised as an International Languge today. Or am I wrong here again?
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TheStonemason 141 states that responses to mapexx's bloggs may be considered by an 'outsider looking in' as 'a case of deliberate and coordinated provocation'.
Have you not read mapexx's comments and insults towards myself and other bloggers?
He who casts the first stone and all that.............
Please wake up and smell the coffee.
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stoney - so far he's compared Welsh speakers with Islamic terrorists and German Nazis and like we're the issue....this blog used to be a laugh but it's hard to deal with nonsense like Mappex without getting nasty.
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Re 142
cysondeb,
You said (talking of mapexx) :
"Your implication is clear to all in no 128 that I am writing as another of the bloggers on here. The name mentioned by you was FiDafydd. "
We cannot possibly be the same person because mapexx isn't speaking to me any more!
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Re 141,
Stonemason,
The occasional mock tut-tutting by the British nationalists is actually quite funny.
It isn't actually the mocking of a person - I'm beginning to doubt that mapexx is a real person actually - that's taking place here. It is responding to badly thought out rants and prejudices which very often are little short of bigotry. That isn't just my opinion, it isn't just the opinion of Welsh speakers, it is the opinion of English speakers on this blog as well. But you never seem to think, Stonemason, that mapexx crosses the line. Do you really think it acceptable for mapexx to call all Welsh speakers idiots?
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message 142....
I am sorry to say but all those 'questions' are little more than silly attempts to get a rise.
They are not worth answering because they were not worth asking.
I was under the presumption you actually meant REAL QUESTIONS, not those childish and silly wind ups.
In reference to your claim I said you were someone else, in fact what I said (and thankfully messages are retained so they can be accessed in such a case as this) was....
"...., I must say, your style is rather different, but you are coming over in the same vein as that other chappie, Di Fi "
Rather a different slant on what you claim I said. In that I did not even suggest, if you read it properly. All I said was "IN THE SAME VEIN".
But I will answer one of those limp questions.... I know enough about the 'Welsh Not' matter as I need, or want to know. Beyond telling you this next bit, I am totally disinterested in it.
When I was very young, in the early 1940's, I would have been about six or seven, my grandfather showed me some pictures taken in a school on Aberdare I think he said it was, of himself and another child, a girl, with a cardboard notice hung around their necks with two letters scrawled on the cards "WN" I now know what they meant, before, although told, I had forgotten about them.
MY grandfather did not like kids I now believe, as his constant whine to me was children should be seen and not heard, I seem to remember the pictures were shown to me to reinforce that attitude.
Beyond that, I had, and have, no interest.
As I was living in Manchester at the time, and had no real Welsh connections, even though they could speak Cymraeg, usually between them so )'little piggy' who had big ears could not listen in)...as could my mother, to a limited degree, she had her education at St Peters Cof E school,in Blaenavon, where, I was informed they still practiced the WN as late as the start of the WW1.
Not keeping to English meant a leather strap across the back of the legs for a girl, or pants down, and on the bare butt for a boy. In front of the whole school, so my mother said.
I am therefore not in any way prepared to engage in any sort of discussion about a subject I know little about, in the very fine detail you people seem to engage in whenever the matter is raised, Blue Books, WN or whatever else, along those lines.
I too could, no doubt, go to Wiki or the Ency Britannia should I be interested enough, but I am not, so will close off this avenue for further attempts to score one off me.
Finally Q 6, I HAVE answered. in a previous message.
I must say that one about seeing bad about everything is a bit rich from someone who has done nothing else in regards myself.
Stick to the mundane arguments and leave the personal attacks out of the equation and we shall get on famously.
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cysondeb
As I said at #141 .....
Getting back to the real issue .....
Devolution was not designed to either:
1. destroy the British Constitution.
or
2. be a precursor to separation.
Both are linked to the Plaid Cymru's intentions for the near future.
Plaid has been found with its fingers in the till, the till of democracy, and has been found wanting of honesty.
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message 143.....
I will take this one one at a time, and go through every point you make.
.1. There is NO need to enact laws to prop up this language, that is the biggest mistake you can make,. it will bring the language into immediate conflict with those who have not love for it, or who don't want it thrust before them, like a new speed limit, or a new regulation on how they should spend their Sundays off.
2.The paragraph outlines rather, skimpily I admit, the agenda set by the Nazi's pre WW2.
They too started in a mildly persuasive way to bet the uncommitted on their side, Plaid is doing exactly the same.
As do ALL nationalist Party's when in the run up to potential power.
Persuade and cajole, then when they sit in the seat of government, they bring their more rabid notions to the fore, and the compliant feel compelled to stand side by side with them, for fear of being seen as traitors to them, because they themselves have set in motion the whole thing.
Please do not try telling me it cannot happen, it has, often, all over the world, and Wales ins just as friable and fractious as any other area where nationalists get a grip.
3.The norm, along with Mr and Mrs J Bloggs, are those to who I refer in #2 above.
4. Again the schematic I laid out in '2 above, however you seem impervious to the idea it can happen in Wales, believe me it can, and given half a chance, certain factors within the political sphere will ensure it does so happen.
5. ... IT means the movement towards a nationalist take over from the current political manage, if they should ever manage to gain the power they seek.
If you feel you are not involved, then you should ensure they do not gain that power.
6, No you certainly are not wrong, maybe Britain was wrong in much of what it has perpetrated in times gone by, but as I think you said, you cannot turn back the clock, or some such remark, no the clock cannot be turned back, nor historical facts erased, that is why English IS dominant across the cubic world, or was it square, no matter, I got your meaning.
We need to press on, and if that means we generally support Cymraeg as a local and worthy of support language, then so we should, but by tolerant and sustainable means, and methods, not by taxing the public, without a choice being placed before us..
But then only as a completely isolated matter, away from any aspect whatsoever that smells of nationalism.
These people are using the language as a weapon, and a means to get the control they want, over this region.
Something you should be not only wary of, but very very frightened of coming about.
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FiDafydd, I am sorry that mapexx isn't speaking to you anymore. Hope it's not my fault!
Mapexx says in 148 that he had previously said [in 128]
"...., I must say, your style is rather different, but you are coming over in the same vein as that other chappie, Di Fi "
... and goes on to say [in 148] "Rather a different slant on what you claim I said. In that I did not even suggest, if you read it properly. All I said was "IN THE SAME VEIN"."
Can I go back to 128 and put this short quote in context.
"I will concede one point, that can only be valid however, if you asked me questions under another identity, because you certainly have not asked me any under the name you posted message 109.
If that is the case, then how am I expected to know just who the hell you are, coming back at me as a multi identity poster of messages?
I must say, your style is rather different, but you are coming over in the same vein as that other chappie, Di Fi or Pinocchio as I prefer to call him, because he is a outright liar and his wooden nose grows every time he sends in a message, of similar type to this 109 from you, which claims I have not answered message I have never received."
This gives a different overall impression. Does it not?
And please note that I did not claim that you said I was someone else. Please read post 142 - one of the very last paragraphs.
The Stonemason 149. As I said to mapexx 143, the question at the head of this page is
'To what extent do you agree or disagree with the following statement? "There is a need to create new laws to help promote the Welsh language and also to ensure that Welsh speakers have more opportunities to use the language when using some services". '
It is not about Devolution!
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Brilliant mapexx. You actually stated, in your first paragraph 150, something related to the question at the top of this page.
I even agree with you up to a point. There is no need for legislation. The language should and will survive without.
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The majority of what you state in the following paragraphs in 150 seem to be based on paranoia.
Extremes of views such as yours are as worrying as the ideas you put forward as being the motives of some of those in power in Wales!
With so much mistrust how can a Government succeed?
However, to finish, you seem to mellow once again and agree that the language should be supported, even if it is, as you state ' by tolerant and sustainable means and methods...'
You do go on to say however that this should not be by ' taxing the public, without a choice being placed before us'. I'm not quite sure what you are getting at here? Is this where we are back to not wanting legislation - because if it is - I agree with you!!
As I've said in earlier posts I want the language to survive - it is my mother tongue and I wish it to be passed down through future generations of my family. It may sound like waffle to you but that is how I and many others feel.
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Re 150
mapexx,
As I can't honestly believe you to be as feeble as I'd initially thought, maybe you will answer one question. I would very much prefer not to pay any tax that goes towards the maintenance of a nuclear deterrent, do you think I ought to be allowed not to pay it?
Stonemason,
Do you think we should be allowed to pick and choose?
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FiDafydd, your #150.
Pick and choose what ?
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cysondeb, your #151.
Of course it is about devolution, it is about political power, if you think otherwise delusion comes to mind.
And I will remind you yet again .....
Devolution was not designed to either:
1. destroy the British Constitution.
or
2. be a precursor to separation.
The two most recent LCO's were designed to challenge Westminster not to develop a better place for the electorate, Plaid Cymru have nothing to offer other than the Smoke and Mirrors of Nationalist politics.
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The Stonemason 156.
You are obviously a political animal. I am not.
My interest here are about the language and whether, to quote from above,
"There is a need to create new laws to help promote the Welsh language and also to ensure that Welsh speakers have more opportunities to use the language when using some services".
I can see how one can have a discussion about the language without entering into the realms of fantasy. You obviously cannot.
This is where I bow out!!
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Re 155
Where our individual taxes go! I don't like paying for Trident, you hate paying for the language.
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Re 157,
I can only sympathize. They have two modes of behaviour, attack and insult and then when that fails - they sulk.
But the good news remains, they are a very small minority of rather bitter, largely elderly gentlemen with a British nationalist agenda. They live in another age.
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#158 FiDafydd wrote:
"I don't like paying for Trident, you hate paying for the language."
There's a very big difference between the two. Billions have been spent over the decades on Britain's nuclear deterrent. Its replacement is going to cost at least 20 billion pounds. Even senior retired generals think its pointless and a waste of money!
(The Chief of the Defence Staff Field Marshal Lord Bramall, and Generals Lord Ramsbotham, former Adjutant General, and Sir Hugh Beach, former Deputy Commander-in-Chief of UK Land Forces wrote to the Times in January).
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1119285/Trident-nuclear-defence-completely-useless-says-general.html
I hope you watched Channel 4's Dispatches programme last night, on how the UK government has and is wasting billions of our money. They waste enough, according to the programme, to pay the cost of bailing out the bankrupt banks every year!
These eye-watering blunders are ignored by the dimwits who criticise the measly expenditure on the Welsh Language. Their criticism indicates that at heart they are anti the Language and that's what motivates them. Of course, they don't and can't speak it, and can't understand that those who do value it highly. They also don't understand that in a democracy (which of sorts, the UK is) linguistic minorities have rights, as do other minorities. They want to create a tyranny of what they think is the majority.
Fortunately, there is widespread support for the Language right across Wales among non-Welsh speakers. I've spoken to many visitors to Wales who love to see and hear evidence of the Language being used in every day life. The tiny minority who rant on this blog are highly unrepresentative.
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message 153....
Considering the new, and very recent statement by Plaid, re their objective being 'Full Independence', do you still think my argument is 'paranoia?'
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message 160....
Quote'-
These eye-watering blunders are ignored by the dimwits who criticise the measly expenditure on the Welsh Language. Their criticism indicates that at heart they are anti the Language and that's what motivates them. Of course, they don't and can't speak it, and can't understand that those who do value it highly. They also don't understand that in a democracy (which of sorts, the UK is) linguistic minorities have rights, as do other minorities. They want to create a tyranny of what they think is the majority.
No, they are not ignored by people, they are very much taken on board. That is why, every now and again administrations are voted out.
Shall we just wait and see what transpires?
However to refer to the quote above.....
We who are anti, are NOT anti the the language you are fond of, what we ARE anti, is the fact, without proper democratic permission being given by the electorate, the language is being used as a vehicle for change and a weapon to bludgeon the majority into submission.
This has yet to be absolutely tested, as a needful requirement by the whole population, of not just Wales, but the rest of the UK, as it is the whole of the UK that has been oversubscribing to the recent survival of Wales.
Tolerance has been forthcoming for some decades, but only because a few mouthy nationalists have been making noises far above their real capacity, are we now fearful of the consequences of those noises.
We have been forced to accept a language agenda that we were never prompted to permit, it was put into effect without the permission of the full population of Wales even, never mind the whole of the UK, who have been funding it ever since.
All we were given to ponder, prior to the last referendum, was whether we wanted a small degree of self determination. This we took to mean nothing more than a Welsh replacement for the Welsh Office of the day.
Redwood certainly influenced the outcome of that referendum, without doubt.
Somehow, and extremely UNDEMOCRATICALLY, this has been turned into a full blown race to independence, as made very public this week, by Plaid Cymru.
We never voted for this to happen, nor will we again vote for anything else that comes from that direction, and if the language is to be a casualty in the oncoming conflict, then so be it, your people will have brought it on yourselves, in your haste, in attempting to go for broke.
It seems you cannot separate the political foment which appears to be brewing in Westminster from the everyday, here in Wales and the rest of the UK regions.
More fool you for your remission in this political naivety.
But by mixing your political agenda's, Welsh and Westminster, you fail to recognise, that below the headlined news, the mass of the British public, who from the undercurrents I have detected, re what is occurring in Wales, with all the anti English rhetoric in the media, and on a variety of message boards, and blogs, are getting quite steamed up, which will, without doubt, reflect in the manner of the way their respective MP's will behave, when and if, any demand for further powers is raised in the House.
My advice is to concentrate on Wales and Wales alone, keep your mouth tightly closed over the happenings across the border, as any perception in Westminster, that we in Wales have antipathetic views as to the banks, or military spending etc, could easily turn into a 'down with Wales and the Welsh' sort of scenario.
First to go could easily be the proposed establishment in St Athan. Along with that, a high number of urgently needed jobs, plus all the incoming wealth the establishment could create, in the areas around the Vale and nearby.
We could find ourselves adrift without the safety factor of our eastern neighbour's fiscal life jacket, and as mentioned before, we may be 'free', but for what it would be worth, somehow I cannot visualise us finding that 9 billions that we currently get from the UK, to top up our own contribution to the 28 billions it currently costs to run Wales, as is.
In fact the bill would rise dramatically once the NHS, and other government offices moved eastwards.
The employees of all, contributing massively to what tax income Wales generates, and which would be lost.
I do not see international firms queing up to come to Wales, not with all the low wage third world and Euro aspirant states, waiting on the touchlines of the game.
There may well be widespread support fo the language, but watch that support melt away like overnight hoar, frost once the people get a taster of what is on offer, especailly when they begin to realise just how their lives and livelihoods will be affected.
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#162 mapexx
You spend a great deal of time criticising the NAW, the WAG, Plaid, the Welsh Language and the money spent on it. You are by far and away the biggest contribuor (if one could call your posts 'contributions' to rational debate).
Do you spend as much time contributing to Nick Robinson's unionist blog, criticising the British Government's myriad and massive blunders? I think not. That indicates that your main preoccupation is criticism of those of us who want to put Wales and its people first. A people who have suffered under centuries (including the last century) of English-dominated rule.
Tell us, what positive suggestions do you have for a better future for Wales? Are you clamouring for the reform of the abysmally class-based, undemocratic and corrupt political system in the UK?
As far as I can see you want to take us back to Redwood, Hain, Thatcher, Blair and their ilk. You look forward to another decade (at least) of a harsh Tory government under an Eton-educated leader who has virtually no knowledge or experience of Wales, who will send another English governor-general to Cardiff to keep little Wales under the thumb. We will have swapped one self-interested tory party for another.
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Re 162
So many words, so little sense.
You seem to live in a parallel universe where you see Wales on the verge of independence, and where you also see the whole population speaking Welsh in the next five years! If only.
You make no sense. You seem to think that Plaid Cymru's support of independence is some come kind of betrayal - but, I would ask, a betrayal of whom?
Are you really saying that now we have a very small amount of devolution in Wales Plaid Cymru should forget its aspirations and principles? Why? Can't you understand that there will not be any major constitutional shift without the support of the Welsh nation?
Still your long rants in the most quirky English I've ever read are always amusing. That you get into such a rage consistently only shows to me that things are moving in the right direction. Long may it continue!
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Message 163.....
Unlike you, political giant per excellent as you would seem to think yourself, I have no ready made, off the peg, answers, but I will state quite emphatically, the answers you propose do not cut it either.
Wales in common with all other UK regions, must take whatever comes, and that does not mean handing the future of some three million people into the hands of a language obsessive, nationalist agenda'd, minute number, who happen to run the Assembly at the moment, and undemocratically so at that.
To overcome that obstacle you will need the permission of that same 3 million, which you will find is not an easy task.
You have been attempting to confound and confuse the majority with your aspirations for an independent Wales, by the strongly worded emotive produce of your spin doctorate keyboard. Without doubt engineered by Plaid media guru's who are fearful of anything that could take out a rail from the track their gravy train is running on.
Why not tell the truth for a change, as I do.
Tell the people of Wales, all three millions, how they will be better off if Wales were to become isolated from it's neighbour.
Again, unlike you, I have never made any great play on the 'perfection' you seem to think I make out of the British system.
I am not blind or stupid, I know there are faults, that is why we have general elections every few years, so we can go some way to overturn what we perceive to be unacceptable patterns of behaviour.
But what do you want me to say?, I should encourage the rest of the UK to rush, lemming like, to the edge of the same precipice that you wish to take Wales.
That is the road to revolution, I can see the attraction, but I doubt that the rest of Britain feels that way, if it did, we would have revolted, en masse, years ago
Had we done so, any pretty little ideas of Welsh independence would have died the death, along with those who engendered revolution.
People, yes, even here in Wales, are not as gullible as you would have us all believe.
When the time comes, we will see how far the mixture of language and political aspiration you have concocted will be soaked up by the people of Wales, and I wager it will not be as readily soaked up as you may think.
Maybe a few polls say the people take a emotive and hiraeth attitude to the language, however the political matter is a horse of a totally different colour, and before any ash gets laid on the odds, I think the people will want to see who's riding that horse, and why the jockey is so hell bent on cruising Wales into a situation that is untenable, by any method of measurement.
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#165
You didn't even attempt to answer my fundamental question.
What are your positive contributions to the debate? How do you propose to make Wales a better place for its 3 million inhabitants?
We have heard endless critical rants, now how about something positive and constructive?
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mapexx, where brynt41 askes at #166 .....
"What are your positive contributions to the debate? How do you propose to make Wales a better place for its 3 million inhabitants?"
Would you agree that as the United Kingdom becomes a better place so each of the regions benefit. So the question becomes .....
How do you propose to make the united Kingdom a better place for its 60 million inhabitants?
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#167 TheStonemason wrote:
"How do you propose to make the united Kingdom a better place for its 60 million inhabitants?"
I've already answered that question here (in other topics), on NR's and other blogs. I've also said that if radical structural reform was carried out, then I would consider supporting Wales remaining in the reformed state, preferably on a loose federal basis.
I see no prospect of such reform ever taking place because of the basic constitutional position of parliamentary sovereingty ('The Crown in Parliament', technically speaking). There are too many vested interests to change it. No party which gets into power will reform it because it guarantees an alternate two party government on a minority vote, immense power for the PM through patronage, and advantages for certain social classes and the wealthy. Note how difficult abolition of the Lords has been, even under a (nominally) Labour government with an overwhelming majority for a decade.
There is no purpose here getting into the problems these constitutional issues have caused for the peoples of these islands, but they have been many and serious.
I think the Scots have basically had enough. They don't have the problem of one-third of their population having been born outside of Scotland, as we have in Wales. A significant proportion of those are English, and retain their English identity here, making the achievement of self-determination particularly problematic for Plaid Cymru. The setting up of the 'Wales Can' website is a tacit admission on Plaid's part that self-determination will take a generation or more to achieve.
My opinion is that I won't see it in my lifetime, if ever, but under certain circumstances it could well be achievable. Who would have thought less than two years ago that HBOS, RBS and NR would have gone bankrupt? (but for the bailout with your money and mine).
A Tory government may well drive the Scots to independence. I have no particular liking for that word, as it doesn't really describe the realities of statehood in the 21st century. Scotland will still have to retain close ties, political, economic and social, with the remainder, as would Wales. There would be open borders, as are now. They would use the same currency (the Euro), as I'm certain that the UK will have to adopt it, sooner rather than later. Scotland and Wales are much less averse to the idea, and are much less Euro-sceptic than England. Foreign policy might differ, but would overlap.
There is much that is obnoxious to me about the British State. I can't see it being satisfactorily reformed, ever. I think it more likely that Wales could achieve those reforms by getting self-determination. So I'm more in favour of the latter option because of the political realities within the UK, rather than wanting independence for Wales, as such.
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Welsh businesses' say no to further Welsh Language legislation, at today's Welsh Language LCO Committee.
The Federation of Small Businesses submitted .....
"... we do not believe that it would be a positive move to try and strengthen the language through further legislation ..... it would actually be detrimental to the language itself, as well as having a potentially negative impact on SME's (small and medium sized businesses') the vast majority, 59%, chose customer demand as the single measure most likely to generate the use of Welsh in their business."
..... just thought some might find it interesting .....
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Re 167,
So, you're now answering for mapexx - well, I suppose somebody has to! Because 165 is just another extraordinarily vacuous excuse for an answer. Yet again, it is merely a furious rant fuelled by blind panic.
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brynt41, sitting politically opposite to mapexx, I was wondering how he might make a difference if he were PM or President.
In the past politicians from Wales have made a difference to the lives of people throughout the UK, as a Unionist I would hope that Wales would produce other ideas to improve life.
I was just wondering what mapexx might say.
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FiDafydd,
You misinterpret, I was asking mapexx a question, I only answer for myself.
I have just re-read mapexx at #165, and it sits diametrically opposed to yourself in content, vacuous is a shameful term to use when its use is patently inaccurate.
It is a guess, but I think mapexx gets under many Plaid Cymru skins.
Plaid Cymru supporters seem to get under mapexx's skin when his answers are ignored.
As an example, his two paragraphs .....
"Again, unlike you, I have never made any great play on the 'perfection' you seem to think I make out of the British system.
I am not blind or stupid, I know there are faults, that is why we have general elections every few years, so we can go some way to overturn what we perceive to be unacceptable patterns of behaviour."
There is nothing vacuous there.
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Re 169,
Yes, the same representatives who probably opposed the minimum wage as well. What a surprise ...
Conservatives with a capital and/or small 'c'.
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message 166....
I suppose you must be excused for being somewhat obtuse, however, the paragraph below demonstrates that you must have NOT read message 165.
So in future, before making allegations that I have not done thos or that, keep the number 165 in mind, to remind you that you SHOULD read all before you, not the juicy bits that take your fancy, and to which you think smart alec replies will suffice.
1st para: message 165
"Unlike you, political giant per excellent as you would seem to think yourself, I have no ready made, off the peg, answers, but I will state quite emphatically, the answers you propose do not cut it either."
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FiDafydd your #173
Your .....
"Yes, the same representatives who probably opposed the minimum wage as well. What a surprise ..."
Who knows, but I recognise the rhetoric, left of Lenin Leanne Wood, known to her friends as "Woody".
Your .....
"Conservatives with a capital and/or small 'c'."
Personally I prefer the upper case "C", but what is your point?
You would prefer the imagined pastoral idyll of the pre-industrial revolution?
Pinned to the land by landowners (Welsh in Wales), subsistence, abject poverty, cyclical starvation as crops failed, and an almost complete lack of education.
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#171 TheStonemason wrote:
"brynt41, sitting politically opposite to mapexx, I was wondering how he might make a difference if he were PM or President.
In the past politicians from Wales have made a difference to the lives of people throughout the UK, as a Unionist I would hope that Wales would produce other ideas to improve life.
I was just wondering what mapexx might say."
I think you'll have to continue to wonder. When challenged he doesn't respond with constructive comments. He ignores direct questions as such. Someone has described him as a 'troll'. That might be going too far, but its clear that his primary object is to provoke by making inflammatory and inciteful comments. After a while it gets tiresome, boring even, to respond to unreasoned rants.
I do respond to your comments because you debate in a reasoned fashion, although we have opposing views on many things.
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message 176.....
When have you asked direct questions?
You have waffled on and on about the LCO, the language, the Assembly/WAG and all it's
complex publicity and verbiage, but, the only time you have given me a 'question' I answered it.
But by all means list any I have failed to respond to, I can always catch up.
The answer may not have fulfilled your expectations, however that is to be expected from someone with such a hold on massive prosaic output, which invariably finally gets to some sort of point, but by a most circuitous route, saying in a thousand words what could be said in a tenth of that.
And you accuse ME of submitting boring messages.
By the way, and in conclusion, I NEVER make disparaging comments about the language; about some of it's users, and certainly about the way it is being abused by those, Yes,... but the language, per se, never, I do not attack the afflicted.
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message 171.....
Stoney,... I am not one for elevating myself to high office, I am more likely to opt for a patrimonial status, munificent Daddy of the Nation etc.
I am though, impervious to corruption, and would do a few things.
1. Take a Chinese line on the corrupt, I am sure I could find a nice stone wall in every region, where a firing squad could be usefully employed. In that I do not stick with fiscal corruption, but would include corruption of the norms of the human state. Murder, and such included. No more reliance on the taxpayer funding perpetual imprisonment.
Kill and you will be killed, With appropriate safeguards of course.
2. A deconstruction of the reliance on precendental and statute law.
I would eradicate all current law, and install a written constitution that would give every citizen the inalienable right to challenge the state.
I would add to that, in giving the citizen the funds and means to so issue a challenge.
3. I would require ALL citizens, especially those not born in the UK, to take a citizen test, which would primarily lay out terms so rigid they could not then say they would use our freedoms to take actions, or verbal antipathy, against the state, except under the terms laid out in the constitution.
4. I would re institute a form of National service that would require all coming out of education, to serve the state for a period of one year, with no exceptions other than genuine medical reasons.
5. I would require all citizens to act, in word and deed, to offer full support for the State, which would refuse to listen to any voice that attempted to sunder the state, into segmented regions seeking self determination.
I could complete this 'constitution' but why play into the hands of the segregationists, and other nutters, who wish to do what I, personally, would not tolerate, or permit, if I were head of state..
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Re 175
I quote:
"You would prefer the imagined pastoral idyll of the pre-industrial revolution?
Pinned to the land by landowners (Welsh in Wales), subsistence, abject poverty, cyclical starvation as crops failed, and an almost complete lack of education."
What is that nonsense meant to be? You usually debate in a far more intelligent way than that. Where have I ever eluded to such a past, or as you would have it, dream? Please tell me.
I'd always thought the minimum wage was a mechanism for getting people out of poverty. I believe the Tories - officially - have actually become converts to the idea.
I took you up on your comment in 169, saying that it was hardly surprising that conservative/Conservative elements oppose measures designed to give a measure (only a measure) of equality to the Welsh language. You yourself - a capital C Conservative - have said many, many times that you don't believe in equality, and that it is basically a waste of money.
So please argue sensibly. mapexx can do the silly bits.
I don't think I got an answer from you about which taxes we would all like/not like to pay. (But, sorry if I missed it)
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I was going to make comment on mapexx's 177, especially :
"however that is to be expected from someone with such a hold on massive prosaic output, which invariably finally gets to some sort of point, but by a most circuitous route, saying in a thousand words what could be said in a tenth of that."
- just about the most hilarious post imaginable.
But then, 178 came along - Frightening!!
However, I'm now almost convinced now that mapexx isn't for real. He is a hoax. A clever hoax, but a hoax all the nonetheless.
For his sake and ours, I hope I'm right!
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mapexx your #178.
I can run with that as a start.
FiDafydd your #179
I have been out all day, your .....
"I don't think I got an answer from you about which taxes we would all like/not like to pay."
..... lost me. I pay my taxes, all my taxes. Where did you refer to me and taxes?
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Stonemsaon,
154 and 158.
I also asked you a while ago if you think it acceptable for mapexx - and he did do it! - to call all Welsh speakers 'idiots'? West-Wales had the decency to call this unacceptable at the time.
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Come to think of it Stonemason, you haven't responded to the main point raised in 179 either. I hope you're not going to be another mapexx...!
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FiDafydd, I have moved on the the most recent thread, time constraints, we don't have laptops at the wall.
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Re 184
Oh well ...
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We must never forget, it was not the then powerless Plaid who gave us devolution and compulsory Welsh lessons in English medium schools, was it?
Plaid were gagging for both, but as Alun Michael said...' Plaid wanted devolution, but only Labour could deliver it'.
The English speaking working classes are not blaming Plaid for all this pseudo Welsh idiocy being dumped on them.
They're blaming the slimy crypto nats of Llafur, who shamelessly sought their vote. Llafur are paying for their past deceits, their vote share in the last WAG election was 32%, their worst result since 1918. They thought it couldn't get any worse, but in the 2008 council election their vote share was 27%, and they lost control of 6 councils.
Sorry nationalists the party is over, your wonts are history and Welsh supremacy a thing of the past.
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#186 Jack_Wilkinson wrote:
"...Welsh supremacy a thing of the past."
Oh, yes, Wales has been all-powerful. Why therefore is it in such an awful mess, and has been for longer than anyone can remember?
What amazes me about British unionists and British nationalists is how they view Britain as such a wonderful place. Its a mess today in just about every way imaginable. Its empire created havoc in much of the world. Its still killing thousands of innocent civilians in distant places. The unionists want Wales to continue to be inflicted with the misery its been suffering for generations. Let's hear something positive from you.
'Where there is no vision, the people perish'
What future do you offer us?
We only get a deafening silence to that question, whenever its asked.
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message 187.....
And all we get from you is total impracticality, emotion, and harking back to a never existing freedom that Wales never had.
Take those rose tinted specs off, and look at the facts.
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