Labour versus the Rest Mark 2
What was that about Labour versus the rest?
Remember this?
Nick Bourne was forced to spend his Sunday afternoon shouting "mea culpa" from the rooftops when it turned out he had, after all, sanctioned a document that personally attacked the First Minister.
Rhodri Morgan said he'd rise above "really unpleasant political stuff" like being dubbed the clown prince of Wales.
A Labour party spokesperson condemned a "petty personal attack" at a time when the opposition party should be putting forward policy ideas at its autumn conference.
So on the eve of another Tory conference, you just wonder what the Welsh Conservatives will make of Eluned Morgan MEP, Peter Hain MP and Alun Davies AM launching a new political website. It is, says Alun Davies, "an opportunity to create a positive and constructive debate about the future of Wales". It features an attack on Tory Toff, David Cameron. Does the name Edward Timpson ring a warning bell?
What will Plaid make of a website that portrays their leading lights as clowns and adopts the name of "Welsh warrior" Owain Glyndwr? Wasn't he, to use the website's own language, what you might term "a gobby nat", a bit of a fan of independence for Wales?
And what will You Tube surfers make of Eluned Morgan's cover version of Tom Jones' Delilah? Why, why, why vote Tory ... Plaidi? "An Obama moment for Welsh Labour" or with an appearance by Margaret Thatcher and John Redwood, a sign that the cupboard is startlingly bare?
What, you wonder, does Rhodri Morgan make of it?
More importantly for Labour right now: what exactly will you see in it?
Labour versus the rest - and how.
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~01~RS~)
Comments
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Obama Moment? More like a Palin Moment!!
Where do you begin? How about the fact that Major put Redwood in the Welsh Office, not Thatcher. Did "Joe the Plumber" do the research for this nonsense?
I thought I read something that Eluned Morgan MEP had written the lyrics, but that surely can't be true. She's supposed to have had some sort of education isn't she?
I can't wait for the next offering from New Labour Wales Studios. Things can only get even more hysterically funny. You just made my day comrades... made my flippin' day!
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When at the Istanbul F1 grand prix two years ago the event was being filmed in HD. Why 2 years later are the BBC unable to get hold of this HD service. Motor racing in HD transforms the experience of wathing the sport - check out SKY Sport coverage of motor sport in HD.
On the BBC F1 site it suggests that HD is not available. This is simply not true. Anyone know any actual real reasons ?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I really think Eluned Morgan should spend more time with her family.
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The content of the labour website is to say the least "pretty pathetic".
Though thankfully we have Labour green shoots, shoots that recognise and denounce the separatist aspirations of the "Plaid Clowns of Misrule", the beginning of the end for this comedy of errors.
Have Labour realised that having Plaid to dinner is a little like inviting the plague.
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Having now seen the website the only comment is 'unbelievable'. If Labour really believes that resorting to the politics of the kindergarten is the way forward then God help all of us. Aneurin Bevan must be spinning in his grave. What has happened to a once great party? Do they really think that anyone is interested in a photograph of an opposition councillor painting a fence or which Young Socialite has become President of a Students Union? Beam me up Scottie. They should realise that Obama had a message to sell and he had the ability to sell that message. Aneurin Glyndwr isn't an Obama moment in Welsh politics I'm afraid. Sadly it is yet further confirmation of the real lack of political talent in Wales at the moment. It looks like something produced by the Iraqi Ministry Of Information in the dying days of the Saddam Hussein regime.
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My first reaction was - pathetic, childish, drivel. The politics pf the playground.
And then I noticed the tag line - Llais Cymru Wales Voice...... and remembered hearing it somewhere else.
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/welsh-politics/welsh-politics-news/2009/03/20/llais-cymru-welsh-voice-lobbies-all-wales-convention-91466-23189202/
Will the real Welsh Voice please step forward!
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Stonemason
"Plaid Clowns of Misrule"!! Another priceless gem!
Did you help Eluned with the lyrics then? I think you should step forward and take the plaudits if you did. Don't let her take her take all the credit mun.
Those green shoots of yours look remarkably like the Japanese Knotwood that grows in the bottom of my garden every summer. Pesky weeds that need rooting out! I'm going to try to replace them with Welsh Poppies this year.
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I saw last nights Dragons Eye and it was referred to (with graphics) and Adrian Masters interviewed Peter Hain and Alun Cairns about the matter. What a pair to have to represent two great political parties. I suppose the electorate deserves the politicians it gets but those two make the profession of "second hand" car salesman seem positively elevated. With regard to the actual website I suppose it shows how "weak" our beloved Rhodri is in that his Deputy First Minister who is responsible for major department spending hard earned tax payers money is depicted as a clown. I've got no truck with Plaid Cymru and its foolish and divisive policies for wales but this is getting to the gutter but what do you expect with anything that Hain is involved with. Why does Labour have such a fixation with the "background" of David Cameron rather than dealing with the fundamental issues to hand . Surely people should be judged on their individual worth rather than they came from "rich" or "poor" backgrounds. Most young people who seem to be the "target" of this political joke have probably never heard of John Redwood,who incidentally has one of the most astute minds in relation to the current "bankrupting" of the UK economy.
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I had two more thoughts about this - both conspiratorial:
Conspiracy #1:
This site was developed by Plaid to embarrass Labour - compare and contrast with Wales Can site. But Peter Hain endorsed the site on TV so he must be behind it - so scrap this idea.
Conspiracy #2:
Peter Hain is being set up by someone in Welsh Labour - so that Rhodri Morgan can stand up in public and condemn the site and its authors - demand it is scrapped and apolgise to the Welsh public for its offensive and immature content - and try and take the moral high ground. Even if this was not the original intention, it might be the best thing for Rhodri to do now anyway.
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message9....
To be fair Snouts, one has to rely on what one can sense from past experience.
You may well think that a persons background has no relevance to his political leanings, but that would be a strictly naive point of view.
Of course one's background gives rise to his politics.
That is why there are 17 or more millionaires on the Tory front bench in Westminster.
It is only over the last few decades, since Labour became a class 2 tory party, that we have discovered a few millionaires amongst them.
Prior to that, we had a furore, when the then Viscount Stransgate, renounced his title to become Anthony Wedgewood Benn, as he was seen as representative of the land owning upper crust.
It is significant that most of those who sit on the right, tend to be the products of a social strata that thrives on a very peculiar British 'caste' system.
I am afraid that has not changed since the day William the Conqueror set in motion the system in the first place.
Nor will it, just because we have made things somewhat more 'socialist' under terms acceptable to the old guard Conservatives.
Tell me the individual is to be measured for his worthiness, when YOUR daughter, or son, is rejected by the family, and social group, of their potential fiancee, for their 'low' class origins.
As for the 'political' joke, yes it's childish and inane, but no more so than the massive publicity campaign by the Tory propaganda machine, when it planted posters all over the place, showing a queue of people under the headline....
....' Labour is not working' .....
....as they then went on to turf 3 and a half millions onto the dole, for purely political reasons.
But I refer you back to your own comment, Hain etc. may have thrown a wobbly with this latest stunt, but he and his cohorts are also 'worthy' people as individuals, and just as the Tory toff is a nice chappie, he also becomes a clown when wearing his Tory topcoat.
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Hain la Bronzego, Eluned O Location, Location ...all that's lacking from this Top Team Wales trio is ace Labour PR guru Steve Morgan!
C'mon, you lot, time to kiss and make up with Steve! He really, really, really, needs the work!
The past is past...let our Steve run Eluned's leadership bid....look what he and Hain did together!!! Dynmamic Duo! (eh?)
So, lads et lasses, why not set up another NEW "Ethical" Think Tank to fund it?
"The graves stood tenantless and the sheeted dead did squeak and gibber" ~ Hamlet (former Labour voter)
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This will have droves of voters leaving Labour !
Where is Kirsty Williams when you need her ?
This could be her moment...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG16jv-itYw
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And in case there was any doubt as to who was behind this pathetic site:
Domain name:
aneuringlyndwr.co.uk
Registrant:
David Taylor
Registered on:
26-Jan-2009
Still bringing politics into disrepute....
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plaidman
The green shoots are Labour realising, at long last, that "an extremely long spoon is needed when supping with the devil".
You must ensure not to cultivate your garden to any great extent, your yellow poppy preferred habitat is damp and shady on rocky ground, much as Plaid prefers to sow the seeds of dismay amongst the vulnerable young.
But I understand that Arianwen Caiach-Taylor, of Carmarthenshire, discovered just in time that Plaid has the serpents forked tongue; poor girl, when she complained to Ieuan Wyn Jones about the student top-up fees issue, denounced was the term used by the Western Mail, John Dixon Plaid Cymru chair expelled her. No dissension in the ranks, it's not allowed, Arianwen might now choose one of the other more democratic parties. The Conservatives will welcome a keen mind.
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Stonemason
The strange thing is that Plaid members have been arguing over a Labour policy. I think it is us who need the longer spoon when dealing with the New Devil!
And my poppies will thrive. No problem there. The Knotweed's days are numbered!
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Stonemason,
In relation to the expulsion, it would be wrong to criticise you for your thoughts on this as you were not aware of the facts; the Western Mail being very selective about what was actually communicated. Having said that, reality and your comments are often very distant relatives.
On the main issue, I just heard (Labour's) Steve Morgan attempting to defend this new site on Radio Wales, claiming that the whole aim had been to get publicity and that in this, it had been a success!
Fair play to Steve, as I can see why he is paid so much to spin things. The small problem is that people are being attracted to a website that is so bad, that it ridicules the publishers and not the targets.
He didn't appear to consider this a problem, which may not exactly be a good sales pitch for his pr firm.
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ianapharri,
Arianwen Caiach-Taylor has been expelled from Plaid Cymru, fact.
She is a dissenter that went public, fact.
Plaid Constitution, I am afraid she failed at hurdle "1.4i willingness to further the aims of the party;"
No dissent with the yellow daffodil, except possibly when you are no longer a teenager and have been elected as an MP or AM, there are three dissenters who have not been expelled, Price / Wood / Jenkins spring to mind.
Reality old chum.
plaidman,
I think the policy that Arianwen Caiach-Taylor was sacked over was coalition business.
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Stonemason
You are not quoting facts, you are quoting your interpretation of someone elses edited version of a story.
Take a look at John Dixon's own blog if you want an insight into the "dissenter" issue. As John states, he himself is a dissenter with regard to the top-up fees issue and as party chair will always defend the right to dissent.
Party discipline is another issue. All parties have rules on how to deal with members who cause offence or injury to the party and their fellow members. Such rules are fundemental to all democratic parties I would think.
It appears that we really have not seen the full detail of the letter in question, but the fact that a heavily edited version was used (and the newspaper in question hasn't made that clear) means that any fair minded person should reserve judgement until they have heard all the facts.
Plaid policy, as confirmed by Plaid's National Council a few weeks ago, is to support the payment of top-up fees for Welsh students studying in Wales. That is a fact. Labour wanted to revise that policy and our ministers and AMs, as junior partners in the coalition, have gone along with them. Most Plaid members understand the difficult position our AMs were in. It is a regrettable position to be in, but the realities of being in government mean that such things come your way. Its another step in the development of Plaid as a party of government, and also in the development of Welsh democracy.
And we all want a strong democratic base to our growing sense of nationhood.
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Stonemason,
I will type more slowly this time, so you understand.
You do not get expelled from Plaid for disagreeing with the leadership. If that was the case, then we would lose quite a few members at every conference-being a party that encourages debate.
There was a lot more in the correspondance than was published and if you choose to believe everything you read in the papers, then I suggest you stick to the Daily Sport. It's editorial accuracy is closer to your level of objectivity, I suggest.
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So Arianwen Caiach-Taylor was not a Plaid Cymru party dissenter.
She voiced her support for top-up fees, in line with John Dixon's view, so she was not expelled for dissent but other aspects of the letter .....
..... because it became public?
You write a little in the style of "Borthlas", or possibly the "Ely Voice".
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Stonemason
You can imagine that I write in the style of anyone you like, but I can assure you that I am just me, not Borthlas or Ely Voice or anyone else.
Miss CT was not a dissenter. Plaid policy remains supporting the paying top-up fees to Welsh students studying in Wales. I regret that Labour decided to instigate a change in the existing policy, but there you go, its been done.
Miss CT appears to have transgressed in the content of her letter - the full transcript of which I have not seen (I am only stating what I understand to be the case). The letter was apparently well over the top and disciplinary action has been taken as a result.
Threatening to harm the party's interests took her position from being one of protest to one of open rebellion. It seems pretty evident that a member who publicises an intention to undermine and damage the party they belong to is on their way to the exit door.
It is nonetheless regrettable that a young and enthusiastic person has come a cropper in this way. I don't think anyone will take any pleasure in what has happened. I would like to think that she'll recover from this episode and find her feet again. Wales needs determined fighters to stand up for their beliefs... they just need to temper their ferocity sometimes I guess.
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ianapharri
Ad Hominem, a very typical response.
plaidman, provided a better explanation of the truth, I think he might be closer than yourself.
Arianwen Caiach-Taylor was judged to be "Threatening to harm the party's interests took her position from being one of protest to one of open rebellion."
As a Times reader I found plaidman .... Ok.
Arianwen Caiach-Taylor really should consider the Conservatives.
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Stonemason,
I would be more constructive towards your opinions if you were not so consistently objectionable. I believe that the word 'troll' is a fair reflection of your blog input on this site.
It is sad that so many on this site fall into that category, but I'm afraid that is the nature of the blogosphere and one of the main reasons why it is losing both credibility and influence.
Getting back to the subject matter, all the parties are trying to learn from the Obama experience in the US and Labour are right to target the internet in this manner.
However, what I cannot understand is why they have made such a poor and counter-productive effort.
I sort of accept Steve Morgan's explanation that it got on people's website 'favourites' list, but unless the quality improves out of all recogntion, I cannot see it as anything other than damaging to them. If they are trying to target young people, do they really think that a such poorly designed and delivered site is going to help. I actually cringed on their behalf when I saw it.
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24 ianapharri
Do you define a 'troll' as someone who disagrees with your position, and says so?
"Labour are right to target the Internet in this manner.
However, what I cannot understand is why they have made such a poor and counter-productive effort."
Labour made a "poor counter productive effort" because they are incapable of producing anything better, the Website gives an valuable insight into labour's abilities and view of the world, not very pleasant is it.
The website demonstrates a lack of talent, which does help explain the failure of the devolution experiment, and the mess the Assembly is making of things.
But why has the BBC has promulgated this unfortunate second rate attempt at political mud slinging with wall to wall news coverage.
Bias - or trying to show Labour up for what it is?
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ianapharri,
Thank you for that, one man's troll is another man's democrat, I was going to write freedom fighter but that smacks of Nationalism.
I am bound to be objectionable to the "Plaid underworld", there we go trolling again, but what do you expect when you and yours wish to destroy my country, that's the United Kingdom of the majority.
Getting back to your comment at #24, although you might have cringed, there is a succinct message to Plaid, the game is up and separatism is part of elections into the future.
John "chunky" Dixon gave me the idea months back when he wrote ....
".... a Labour friend once said to me, if you could take independence out of your manifesto, the valley's would be yours ...." or words very similar.
It has taken months, but at last "Independence" is back where it belongs, in full view of the electorate, the thin end of the "True Wales" wedge I believe.
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Stonemason
Its a curious thing that you say - Arianwen CT "should consider the Conservatives."
I say curious, because we really have reached a point in Welsh political life when the natural home for radical thought is anywhere but the Labour movement.
Accepting that the Lib Dems are not a serious force outside some county halls, and that the Green Party is too under-developed and unprofessional to offer a serious alternative, it leaves Plaid or the Tories as the parties of political radicalism in Wales.
Labour are now about as radical as the communist parties of Eastern Europe in the late 1980s - teetering on the brink of becoming irrelevant and embarrasing to all concerned. The awful, truly awful, website they launched yesterday is a signal that they have run out of ideas and are now leaderless and clueless. For Peter Hain, read Erich Honecker, on the basis of his apparent delight at AneurinGlyndwr. No one apart from a true party apparatchik could defend such drivel.
We need some elections to put New Labour into its grave. But it makes for an exciting future for Wales - change is in the air and there is much to be done to build the nation.
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"Hain la Bronzego, Eluned O Location, Location ...all that's lacking from this Top Team Wales trio is ace Labour PR guru Steve Morgan!"
My (ironic) post (12) yesterday..and by 5.OOpm Radio Wales News happily had "Steve" live to comment...
Just how small is the Radio Wales "world"..."it's a Labour story so let's phone "Steve" to comment?" Like, he has any credibilty? Or is is just too easy to "churn" this stuff?
Any local government story...it's either Jeff Jones or Russell Goodway...er, credibilty? Economics/business ..It's Prof Brian Morgan for a Uni renta-quote....!!! For God's sake!
WHAT happened to honest and original journalism ? Whisper it soft..
ITS DEAD IN (BBC) WALES.
The real irony is that devolution was supposed to change media/politico "club" fest. Fat chance.
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Painful and terrifying - Vote Labour because the only hope for the Welsh economy is to go grovelling to the EU for 'handouts'.
Have a look at this video to see where that ridiculous premise gets you - the Germans and the French are fed up of bankrolling the failed policies of weaklings in other parts of Europe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JQqJj69OEs&feature=related
And it is about time we faced up to reality and started realising that FREE MARKET SOLUTIONS are what is needed to get us back on track.
But oh no, that's not the news from Labour - let us not compete with Eastern Europe but hope that the Germans will give us more of the Objective One money, or that we receive some of English taxpayers money which has been laundered through the EU, in order that we may pay for the contemporary art installations on Welsh trunk road roundabouts..
Yeah, that'll sort out.
WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE LABOUR - YOU HAVE SCREWED UP OUR ECONOMY !!
And Plaid are not much better - their feeble answer to all this is to worry about LCOs for powers they don't have, rather than living in the present and sorting out today's problems.
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AneurinGlyndwr is puerile and amateurish. Can't even scale the clowns hats to fit.
What's revealing is that a site set up to hammer those frightful nationalists needs to use the nationalists' hero, Glyndwr, probably to counter accusations that Labour is anti-Welsh.
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I might be the first person to point out one important aspect of Arianwengate...
...as far as I can tell from reading all the press reports, she hasn't actually been expelled from Plaid.
Nowhere does anyone say that she's been expelled. The party chair said that she had in effect resigned due to the nature of her comments, but he doesn't say that she's been expelled. Someone else seems to have put that spin on events.
As far as we know, she is still a card-carrying member of the party. I hope she will stay that way too.
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this website is a manifestation of the joke that is Welsh politics (labour, plaid, lib dem etc.)
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i forgot to include the tories in the joke list.
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What I find somewhat galling is the claim that this website is somehow a contribution to serious debate. The language used about Labour's opponents and the video are purile. Its basic knockabout yah boo stuff. It claims not to take Labour money but it is endorsed by Labour figures. I would suggest its contribution is limited.
As for someone who actively says they are going to work against the party that they are a member of, well I can't see any party renewing that person's membership. Disagreements yes, no problem.
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Also interesting that the Tories are now the stalanist party... expelling people who give money to others and who critisise their party... oh look not a load of people condemning them for that... double standards may we suggest?
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Lyn_Thomas, your #35.
I have obviously missed something, as a Conservative voter could you expand ....
"..... the Tories are now the Stalinist party... expelling people who give money to others and who criticise their party ..... "
.....
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Stuart Wheeler - look him up Stonemason.
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As a Labour Party Member in Wales I would like to say that you shouldn't assume that the party or at least its membership are happy about this site. I am pretty dissapointed that the site has developed in the way that it has rather than create a space for a proper and more engaging critique of the opposition parties. I have spoken to other members and friends about the site, and have still to find anyone speaking in support.
In response to the comments by lordBeddGelert - free market "solutions" are not the answer and Labour hasn't screwed up the economy. Such a simple "anaylsis" is utterly bogus. It has been the lack to better regulation of the free market in both the UK and the rest of the world which has caused the current economic problems, and whilst Brown had called for better regulation before becoming PM he didn't achieve enough in this direction, however the Labour party has been more consistent in trying to ensure better regulation than the Tory party who were calling for less regulation not so long ago and are suddenly very quiet on the issue except when it will get them a headline for the day to criticise the government.
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Alabourmember
Please, please, please, can you contribute more often. You have just defended your party with facts and opinion rather than by just 'slagging off' the other side. More importantly, you let us know something that can be easily forgotten - that the labour rank and file are fairly much like the rest of us, ie wanting the best for Wales (or the UK, depending on your particular preferred unit size), and despairing of cash providing 'think tanks' that don't think, families who live with their sisters / aunts, and all the other life minutiae of our political masters.
Maybe its time we hard a Government made up of real people who are there to serve, rather than to self serve. Then again thats how the Labour Party started isnt it?
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Lyn_Thomas at #37
I missed most things yesterday, Biology and RE revision, having read about the issue today I refer you to .....
plaidman at #22 wrote .....
Threatening to harm the party's interests took her position from being one of protest to one of open rebellion. It seems pretty evident that a member who publicises an intention to undermine and damage the party they belong to is on their way to the exit door.
I think plaidman puts the case very well, I humbly defer to him on matters of rebellion.
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Perhaps somebody in the know politically should get hold of
Arianwen Caiach-Taylor
and get her to explain here what the true story was . I assume she exists .(What a great name for a Welsh version of Le Carre or Fleming, though ! )
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So perhaps you would condem the use of terms like stalinist to describe Plaid then Stonemason, or apply it to the Tory party as well?
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Lyn_Thomas, your #42
In this thread it is only yourself that has used the term, "stalanist" at #35, I referred to "stalinist" at #36 quoting your #35.....
So in general terms, your use of the expression "stalanist" is acceptable in a democracy, If you wish to apply it towards any political party it's your prerogative.
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