David, George, Eric and ... Roger
So what have we learned?
From Local Government spokesman Darren Millar that "under a Welsh Conservative Assembly Government every pensioner household in Wales would qualify for a 30% reduction in their council tax bills" - which would save the average pensioner household somewhere around three hundred pounds.
From Party Chairman Eric Pickles that he wished he hadn't lost it on Question Time when asked about his second home allowance and that the party has the funds at the ready if Gordon Brown calls an early election.
Mr Pickles spoke in hushed tones and wandered to the front of the stage, getting close to his audience before telling them that if they had 'friends' who thought they might teach the government a lesson but weren't sure whether to give their vote to the Conservatives - they should send a message to those 'friends' direct from Mr Pickles: vote Conservative. He didn't add 'or else' in that hushed tone of his but you just thought, for a moment, that he might. His performance - well honed you suspect - had them in the palm of his hand.
Obama's campaign struck a chord, he said, because he had something to say. The Chairman seemed unconvinced that the party were able to do that yet on the doorsteps. "It's about trust ... we need to bring back their trust". That's the only way he'll get that lump in his throat when David and George make it to numbers 10 and 11.
We learned that Shadow Welsh Secretary Cheryl Gillan is hoping for a rugby team of MPs in Wales after the next General Election (not 7s in case you were wondering, she means the full 15) and hopes she'll still be 'managing' that team. "She's speaking positively about the numbers and good luck to her" said Jonathan Evans MEP. As a former team of one in Wales, he was rather more modest in his targets ... not to say he, too, wouldn't fancy the job of manager of course.
David Jones MP? He went one step further. He's hoping to see "a full team - and a few reserves besides". Any advances on 17?
Mr Pickles had better hope his pep talk worked. Before closing he spoke warmly of the party's outgoing Welsh MEP - his pal Roger Evans. "You should say 'thanks Derek'" whispered a colleague in Jonathan Evans' ear.
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~57~RS~)
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Sorry Betsan, but your final paragraph is a bit lost on someone who isn't as conversant with Welsh political shenanigans as your good self..
Of course, I appreciate that if you have to explain it, then it isn't really a joke, but..
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Will a large increase in Welsh Tory MPs deal a fatal blow to their party's apparent support in Cardiff Bay, for a Welsh Parliament?
With the exception of Glyn Davies, I cannot see any possible future Welsh Tory MP supporting it.
Does anyone out there know of any of their British Parliament candidates who are pro- Welsh Parliament?
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Guto Bebb?
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The following Tory PPCs are sympathetic to the idea of devolving further powers to the National Assembly
Guto Bebb- Aberconwy
Suzy Davies - Brecon and Radnor
Glyn Davies - Montgomeryshire
Jonathan Evans - Cardiff North
Alun Cairns - Vale of Glamorgan
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It was good to read David Cameron, he seems to reassure the Unionist commentators in this blog, ..........
The Conservatives’ "mission" included a government that would lead by example by living within its means.
As Prime Minister Mr Cameron said he would come to the Welsh Assembly every year to answer AMs’ questions.
But he signalled a lukewarm attitude towards giving the Assembly more law-making powers, saying he wanted to make the current settlement work.
There would be a relationship of "cooperation, not confrontation" between administrations in Westminster and Cardiff under the Conservatives – a recurring theme at this conference.
"That’s why it’s so important that we shift power and control from the state to individuals – and from the centre to local communities.
The whole report from WalesOnline
......... interesting he is signalling the need, dare I say requirement, for cooperation between Westminster and Cardiff, and about time.
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PS to my last .....
Betsan, it seems the system clocks have not been changed at your end, this PS is posted at 15.02
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It is so kind of David to promise to visit us every year. We will be the envy of the free world.
Someone better than us will come to tell us where we are going wrong, distribute some beads and tobacco, and make some promises, before returning to the Mother Country.
It doesn't get much better than that!
Sorry Stonemason, that is ridiculous. We don't really want to see Cameron here at all. He won't be elected by a Welsh constituency so why should he have a say in how we run our affairs?
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That is the saddest comment, the first three paragraphs, I have read for a long time.
Personally I look forward to the future .... the future is the Union; I look forward to DC making the current settlement work, without destroying our constitution.
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Stonemason, the past is the monolthic Union. The future is still developing but includes devolution in some form or another.
The current devolution settlement is part of the Constitution you love so much, as is the GOWA 2006 which will deliver further powers after a referendum.
You just dont get it - a full law making Assembly for Wales will be part of the Constitution of the UK, and will not destroy it - merely develop it.
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The future may be a Union (for independent nations can still act in union) but a Union of equal partners would be far better than the rather patronsing promise that the Great White Leader and his appointed Governor will pop over to see how we are every now and again.
Why are you so frightened of Wales becoming a normal country?
Dai Melding's dad was a stonemason. Any relation I wonder?
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message 10.....
'Equal' partners?
Behave yourself,..... how can a disparate region, with little cohesion between it's different areas be capable of being equal with a state consisting of 20 times it's population, where even the capital has three and half times the population of this region of Wales.
Hiving off Wales, and allowing it to gain law making powers, would be senseless in the light of there being NO SATISFACTORY border between each state.
Not only that but the region has shown how it is incapable of self sustenance, it cannot produce enough within itself to fund the lifestyle we all have under the concept of the Union.
It has a higher level of older people, and unhealthy record in the field of medicine, all of which has to be funded and which at present is being so by the Union State of the UK.
Take away that level of funding and see where that gets you or your wished for independence.
I can assure you that as this crunch develops, there is likely to be a serious backlash to all this demand for independent power for the WAG/Assembly.
In fact the signs are already there, if one can be bothered to look out for them.
We Welsh people are not stupid, obtuse to a fault, yes, but we know when we are likely to be shafted, and the realisation of that likelihood will hit home hard, to all, in the not too distant future.
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mapexx
Oh come on - catch up with the 21st century my friend!
How did Slovenia rise to the chair of the European Union? How does Denmark sit at the same European table as Germany? How does Ireland hold conferences with Britain? Where did Norway come from? How does any small country exist in a world full of large nation states?
They just do. And by and large they do pretty well, thank you very much. As a self-governing nation, Wales could join the European Union and be an equal partner with England for a start.
Or does the idea that little Wales can walk two steps on its own in the world fill people with you with such horror that you you would prefer to leave us in our corner, separated from the world community, a charity case dependent on the largess of the colonial master?
It is people like yourselves who are the threat to our future. You are the true separatists. You want to keep Wales apart, excluded from the mainstream of European and World politics, receiving everything second hand, via the funnel of Westminster.
People like me are true internationalists who want Wales to JOIN the world community and play a positive role. Nations are the fundemental building block of the international community after all.
We've been in the shade, and been "shafted" as you put it, for far too long. Its time our aspirations got an airing.
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As can be readily seen by the rather garbled rantings of "Plaidman", desperation really is rampant amongst the nationalist Plaidophiles.
Oh dear.
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Re 12
Well said plaidman. A rare ray of sunlight in amongst the usual depressing, no hope, Wales can't possibly do it (we don't have the resources, talent ...etc, etc) British nationalist agenda. What you say is so obvious for all open-minded people to see, it's just even more depressing that the nationalists of the past are oblivious to it all. Frankly though, they've had their chance, and made an almighty mess of it.
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Plaidman - we have seen devolution,
Its a waste of time, money and effort.
The Assembly Government have delivered virtually nothing to improve the lot of the Welsh people.
The NAW has shown itself incapable of handling the powers it has, yet asks for more.
It has created dissent, tries to force unwanted cultural change on large sections of the Welsh people, pours millions into this social engineering project but bleats it can't afford to do essential things.
Has emasculated The WDA, Welsh Tourist Board, etc. bodies that were bringing Wealth and credibility to Wales.
Failed to provide the needed infrastructure improvements.
Made an incredible mess of running the NHS restructuring the thing every year, diverted cash to other projects, centralised both management and services so that patients are at risk and seriously inconvenienced.
Education has been underfunded at all levels, and standards are declining.
Our Universities are declining with science and engineering faculties closing.
Do we really want the likes of Rodney, Ieuan or Nick representing us to the World.
Lets face it even in the Senedd they are not listened too - the AM's are to busy blogging.
Our Nation is the United Kingdom, it is through our MP's that we deal with the international community.
Having said that - right now the UK Government is a disaster, as all Labour Governmnts before have been.
But in 14 months at the most we will be shot it, and the task of rebuilding the UK will begin - hopefully that will include a root and branch restructuring of devlution.
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Message 12....
International recognition states that Wales effectively consists of a mass of virtually unoccupied territory, the bulk of economic activity being concentrated in a small area of north east Wales, and the major share in the south east of Wales.
So what you are calling for is the separation of those two major areas from the rest of the UK, as to all intents and purposes, on economic grounds, the rest of Wales does not come into the equation.
As for Slovenia, the GDP of that nation amounts to just about four percentage points below the European average.
Wales has a very much lower GDP than that.
Slovenia is a highly successful farming based economy, with a few outsourced industrial new manufacturing units to compliment the rural..
Other states mentioned have much to offer in the way of economic activity, the Scandinavians for example have thos marvelous commodities OIL and GAS, which Wales seems to be rather short of.
Again you mention 'equal', this time in reference to the whole of the EU.
Do try to keep up, we, as a separated state would not be, in any way whatsoever, 'equal' under terms you seem to think would apply.
Yes, we may get a form of 'equality', in that we would be subsidised, as we are at present by the UK economy, but to what advantage considering all the upset in the political arena to gain such 'alternative' status.
Why bother therefore,or is it just to opt for that almost invisble culture you people are always banging on about?
It was not so long ago you people, with your heads in the clouds, were spouting about the Irish economic miracle as an example of how Wales could benefit from independence, not so certain these days is it, now that Ireland has hit the buffers at breakneck speed?.
Their economy is faltering, as many of the international firms are upping sticks and hopping it to pastures new, and more to the point, a damned sight cheaper. Places such as Slovenia for example.
Wales would have to emulate those other places you mention, in particular those in the emergent EU nations.
But somehow I cannot actually envisage our workforce taking a dramatic drop in pay, to enable massive undercutting of those new Euro members, in order we can compete.
It is you who needs to catch up with the 21st century. The days of easy rider economics are over.
Wales, being the mainly rural, and quite unproductive, region it is, cannot expect to have those 'wealthy' parts of the SE and NE be taken as providers for the whole region any more, and they, like the rural areas, must tighten belts and muck in with the rest, in order to get over the present fiscal woes.
In doing so, the only way out of our present predicament, is via Westminster.
The quicker you wake up to realise which side your bread is buttered on the better off you will be, calling to disassociate Wales from England is just about the worst, and childish, game Wales could engage in.
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The appalling lack of confidence and self-belief that is the downfall of the colonised is writ large in the anti-Welsh, anti-progressive nonsense that we get from some contributors to this blog. They want Wales to remain in suspended animation while the rest of the world moves on.
Dear West Wales - no, we haven't seen devolution. We have seen a hotch-potch of measures introduced to placate the British Nationalists in New Labour's ranks. We have seen a system of devolved government introduced that has so many checks and brakes in place its a wonder they've even been given the key to get into the Senedd , let along take decisions that could advance our nation.
Its not about seeing the "likes of Rodney (sic), Ieuan or Nick representing us to the World." Its about the people of Wales having a sovereign parliament which they can elect according to their democratic wishes. Its about believing that we have a role to play that can make a difference at home and aboad. Its about the Wales Can mindset, not the "poor, feckless Wales" model that has been driven into our skulls by those who really do not wish us well.
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plaidman, your #17
I have masses of confidence and an abundance of self-belief, "in the Union". .......... nowhere has Plaid explained in simple terms how their separatist plans would work in the real world. I do not believe there is a plan for post independence, only empty words. Might it be time to "put up or shut up".
You write of "poor, feckless Wales", where has this come from, it must have come from Plaid Cymru activists, probably from the "hysterical histories", it certainly doesn't come from the Union.
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Somethings askew in the nationalists mind set, they try to make out that devolution is proving amazingly popular, its not its been disastrous for Labour.
Their vote share has collapsed at an astonishing rate compared to England and Scotland.
Where the NO vote for devolution was high, it just seems crazy that Labour could even dream they would remain popular.
Check out the vote share for Plaid, every assembly election their vote share declines. They can't seem to understand that many of us are not their kinda Welsh, our gene-pools are British or other.
Never mind polls taken by The Institute of Welsh Affairs in the S4C staff canteen, just look at real polls, they're called elections.
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Plaidman’s posts are typical of a Welsh Nationalist’s bizarre mindset.
Such people constantly appeal to a golden age of Welsh culture, the return of which is just around the corner if only the tax payer (English) would give them more money; if only the “nasty” Westminster Parliament would give them more power and a golden statue of Gwynfor Evans.
But golden ages have never existed in the past and never will in the future, human nature being what it is.
Wales has never been a nation state; it has never had its own legal system since a process began in the 13th century was concluded in the 16th century during the reign of the Welsh King Henry V111.
Since that time Wales has shared a legal identity with England. And for the most part it has served us well.
And those like Plaidman who laughingly advocate separation in the present economic climate are loony tunes and fantasists of the first water.
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message 17.....
Off we go again, Wales a 'nation'. don't be silly, we already have sovereignty under the governance of Westminster, what on earth gives you the idea that Wales could EVER be a sovereign nation in it's own right.
The place is far too disparate for any sort of joined up political homogeneity to come to the fore.
All we need in Wales, is what is already in place across the whole of Britain,...
....local authorities,...
...with access to the central government, just as is the case for any other region of the state.
Anything else is a waste of time, funding and effort, and this present set up in the Bay is more than enough evidence to show the concept of a sovereign nation called Wales, (which without doubt, would rapidly become Cymru) is nothing more than a pipe-dream of classic proportions.
The Severn crossings are enough of a 'border' for most people, especially those who reside along the access routes to the M4, elsewhere such a 'border' does not exist, and I think the differentials already coming to light between one side of the geopolitical border and the other, particularly in the matter of health care and access to hospitals etc. is becoming a thorn in the sides of the NHS.
Prescription charges and waiting lists are a fractious matter and need resolving as soon as possible.
I wonder just how far down the financial drain Wales has to go before it is realised that the UK cannot perpetually fund Wales to the present extent, and when that realisation kicks in, and subsidies are ceased, where will the WAG/Assembly rake up the shortfalls?
Not from internal Welsh resources, that's for sure.
Long befotre any attempt is made to separate Wales from it's neighbour, the fiscal probity of the region would have to be totally and utterly ensured.
That is why I am against the whole idea of Wales being classed as nation, or ANY powers being given to the Bay.
Considering the mountain to be climbed to achieve such a status, 90% or more of which has to be financial, the time scale involved is beyond any rational measure.
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message 17.....
Off we go again, Wales a 'nation'.
Don't be silly, we already have sovereignty under the governance of Westminster, what on earth gives you the idea that Wales could EVER be a sovereign nation in it's own right.
The place is far too disparate for any sort of joined up political homogeneity to come to the fore.
All we need in Wales, is what is already in place across the whole of Britain,...
....local authorities,...
...with access to the central government, just as is the case for any other region of the state.
Anything else is a waste of time, funding and effort, and this present set up in the Bay is more than enough evidence to show the concept of a sovereign nation called Wales, (which without doubt, would rapidly become Cymru) is nothing more than a pipe-dream of classic proportions.
The Severn crossings are enough of a 'border' for most people, especially those who reside along the access routes to the M4.
Elsewhere, such a 'border' does not exist, and I think the differentials already coming to light between one side of the geopolitical 'border' and the other, particularly in the matter of health care and access to hospitals etc. is becoming a thorn in the sides of the NHS.
Prescription charges and waiting lists are a fractious matter and need resolving as soon as possible.
I wonder just how far down the financial drain Wales has to go before it is realised that the UK cannot perpetually fund Wales to the present extent, and when that realisation kicks in, and subsidies are ceased, where will the WAG/Assembly rake up the shortfalls?
Not from internal Welsh resources, that's for sure.
Long before any attempt is made to separate Wales from it's neighbour, the fiscal probity of the region would have to be totally and utterly ensured. Little less than an impossibility, as I see it.
That is why I am against the whole idea of Wales being classed as nation, or ANY powers of any kind being given to the Bay.
Considering the mountain to be climbed to achieve such a status, 90% or more of which has to be financial, the time scale involved is beyond any rational measure.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Re 23
'Somebody' has been busy with the censors again!
mapexx,
You asked:
Don't be silly, we already have sovereignty under the governance of Westminster, what on earth gives you the idea that Wales could EVER be a sovereign nation in it's (sic) own right.
Quite simply because I don't believe that the vast majority of the Welsh nation are moral cowards. We are still a nation, despite all that has been thrown at us over the centuries; because brave souls were willing to stand up and be counted; because we willed to survive - and flourish.
That is why.
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FiDafydd, your #24.
So now you insult the vast majority, 95 percent, who wish the continuation of the Union.
We are not moral cowards, we are happy to be assured by the Conservatives and others that Plaid's aspirations are political whimsies.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Re 27
Not by me, it hasn't!
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message 28....
You would not have been able to anyway, as it never appeared, as yet.
And if it does not, then message 26 will be referred to the moderators also.
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Message 29....
As you can see, I do not post idle threats.
If you will insist in making scurrilous and very personal comment, then I shall complain each and every time.
It appears the mods, having taken my responses down, are fair minded enough to take down the cause of my strong responses.
Keep it impersonal, and all will be well.
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Re 30
I don't accept that my comments were in any way personal, and I'm a bit concerned about the way the moderators are operating.
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message 31.....
just three examples...
The remark about my proximity to my local school, the implication being what? that I may be tempted to meddle with scholars?
My being a moral coward? why, just because I do not subscribe to your type of argument or the contents thereof.
,,,and in message 26, another slur, which I cannot recall at the moment.
No, you do not do 'personal', that is why I do 'not' complain.
Like I said previously, keep it 'impersonal' and all will be fine.
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Re32
You said ...
"The remark about my proximity to my local school, the implication being what? that I may be tempted to meddle with scholars?
My being a moral coward? why, just because I do not subscribe to your type of argument or the contents thereof.
,,,and in message 26, another slur, which I cannot recall at the moment."
Now, as for the first of these, I have never said anything of the sort. This is not the first time you have confused me for someone else. You can apologize for this.
'Moral coward' - not quite as blatant as 'idiot' is it?
Number 26 must really have hurt then!!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
re message 26/31....
...in accusing me of being a BNP member or at least implying such, and stating I followed the Thatcherite regime, when in fact I was, and am, totally opposed to such a regime, and any trace of nationalism.
You were complained about for such outrageous implications. The complaint was upheld and your message removed, it being deemed to have broken the rules.
Moreover, moral cowardice and idiocy are NOT interchangable, maybe a deep study of both the dictionary and your own mirror reflection should be undertaken.
So far, on this message board, you are the ONLY one I have complained about, so do not come over all innocent re the matter of the school related remark you made, and which was also moderated, and removed.
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Re 35
As far as I'm concerned, you are a British nationalist - and a far more belligerent nationalist than I could ever be. I'm pretty sure I have never said you are a member of the BNP!
I can't remember, but I may have written - quite rightly - about your and their unquestioning allegiance to the UK and the Union Flag. I certainly do remember you making some sweeping, and - in my opinion - nasty generalizations about Muslims fairly recently. When I complained then, you came back telling me that I was naive about 'these people'.
As for the rest, you said:
"Moreover, moral cowardice and idiocy are NOT interchangable, maybe a deep study of both the dictionary and your own mirror reflection should be undertaken."
No doubt it is the fact that I'm an idiot and that I had a Welsh education that this sentence makes very little sense to me ...
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Re 35 again
Just to be clear, I've accused you of 'moral cowardice' because you come on this blog and refuse to debate ...
You called me an idiot because ... well, because you wanted to insult me, no doubt.
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message 36...
...your last sentence sums you up admirably.
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Re 38
So there we are, proof that basically you're just nasty - and someone who won't actually debate or ever, ever answer difficult questions.
I'm glad, though, that you agreed with everything I said in 36.
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message 39....
I totally agreed with the last sentence ONLY in message 37.
The rest was, as usual,.... tripe
Once again your spite trips you up.
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