Culling and scowling
There weren't even seven of us in the gallery this time - not if you discounted the security men who sat impassively in their dark suits, given away by their intricate ear-pieces and darting eyes.
Down in the chamber, on the other side of the glass wall that always serves as a buffer zone between the public and the politicians, the Rural Affairs Minister, Elin Jones, was spelling out in where exactly in Wales the Assembly Government intends to go ahead with the plan to cull badgers. The "intensive action area" covers around 200 square kilometres in north Pembrokeshire where around a thousand badgers will be in the firing line. The Minister has been advised that the most effective and humane method of killing badgers is cage trapping and shooting.
The elderly couple looking on seemed uninterested. The same went for the young couple but his hoodie and her bulging file had caught the nearest security man's eye.
Yes, said Elin Jones, this was an emotive issue.Yes, the only thing the scientists can agree on is that they cannot agree. There is no 100% hard and fast evidence that proves the Assembly Government is right to press on with a cull and that the UK government is wrong to try vaccines. But no, she was not guilty - as charged by some on the Labour backbenches - of being selective in her use of scientific evidence or in the way she'd interpreted that evidence. She's made a considered decision.
Joyce Watson glowered. Irene James scowled. Lorraine Barrett shook her head. Lesley Griffiths went for pleading. Please, would the Minister not reconsider and wait to see what can be learned from the English vaccination pilot areas, some of which may be just on the other side of Offa's Dyke?
The Minister could not. Her mind was made up.
Moral support came from Plaid's Deputy Assembly Group Leader, Helen Mary Jones. Spotting an empty seat behind their Rural Affairs Minister she jumped up and occupied it. The Minister sat down. The deputy rushed back to her own seat and typed furiously on her own keyboard. Up got the Minister. Back to the empty seat went the deputy, filling the camera shot, nodding her support, staring down the Labour backbenches.
Was the government truly committed to taking forward the bovine TB eradication plan or not, asked the Conservatives' very own farmer, Andrew R.T Davies? After all Labour's own Rural Affairs spokesperson was clearly dead set against them. Joyce Watson got a pat on the back. Elin Jones confirmed that, for the avoidance of doubt, yes, she was speaking on behalf of the government.
Student fees last week. Badgers this week. It's good to be reminded that both governing parties still have a few ... for today, let's call them reactors on their own backbenches.
Alun Davies shot up. He was flanked by glaring colleagues. He was glad the Minister was forging ahead with her plans. He's heard more than enough about TB in the rural area he represents - and it includes North Pembrokeshire - to know that something must be done. "We all wish there were alternatives" he said. "There are" muttered Irene James, looking as though she'd sooner trap him in a cage and shoot him than listen to any more of his argument.
A streak of a white blouse and a nearly black jacket meant Elin Jones was back on her feet and sensing the battle was over - for now.
The security men headed for the exit.
Helen Mary Jones returned to her seat.
The Minister started her round of the radio studios just as the press releases appeared. She was guilty of "massacring wildlife" to appease farmers and save the skins of rural politicians, of "giving the green light to bloodshed", of setting in train a "brutal pogrom." The Badger Trust Cymru were either choosing their words very carefully or with too little care - make up your own minds.
Remember Shambo? The fate of the sacred bullock from Carmarthenshire, who was infected with bovine TB, drew worldwide attention back in 2007. The Rural Affairs Minister, brand new to the job, learned early about long-running legal battles and noisy protests. She will by now have read the press releases and will know that her battle over badgers is not over.
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~59~RS~)
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Would this be another example of the Labour / Plaid coalition in action, or inaction, or futile, or fruitless......
But more to the point, Rural Affairs Minister was accused of being selective in her use of scientific evidence, what chance good governance when leadership is so poor.
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Great. Lets try eradicating a species from an ecosystem and see if that helps...we don't know if it will, in fact the last major study of any scientific standing said it wouldn't, but shall we give it a try anyway because in the end it might get us re-elected.
At some point humans will realise that removing parts of ecosystems has knock-ons that are difficult always to anticipate and often not possitive. Eg, Posion the raptors to protect game birds... rabbits are not predated so run riot damaging crops and land. In this case remove badgers and the foxes often move in, with tb... so do we shoot the foxes next... but then what about the rabbit, shoot them...
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message 2....
Quite right, generally speaking eco-systems self level, when a balance is contrived naturally.
We tend to interfere, to the total detriment of the system.
Cattle are NOT natural,.... badgers are.
Now I like my chunk of steak as well as the next person, but at the cost of eradicating a natural element in the eco system? I don't think so.
As for dairy produce, I hardly touch the stuff,... milk I cannot take, and medical investigation has shown that it is often a contributory factor in obesity, heart problems, and much more of the negative aspects to our health.
If anything needs culling it is dairy cattle, beef we can import along with many nmore globally traded commodities.
So in effect, leave the badgers be, they harm no one, except the unstable mental deficients in the Environment and farming communities.
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I see that the Pavlovian dogs are barking (mad) again this morning.
Any action, reaction or indeed inaction from the Senedd sets them off.
I'm thinking of setting up an appeal fund so that we can send these commentators on a holiday to somewhere nice. I feel we all need a break from this incessant barking.
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Enter stage left, an expert on the subject . . .http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2003/mar/10/uk.wales.
Leave it to our Ron, he'll get to the bottom of it.
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bochgoch
Just give us the address and theres £5 on its way.I think BP does her best with the very thin "gruel" that on offer down the bay but the "culling" of badgers does take the biscuit. These practical issues have now been elevated because our political class have no answers to the fundamental issues that are going to face little wales in the big/bad world.Reality is however round the corner in the major cuts to needed to public sector to preserve GB as major economy.
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#4 bochgoch wrote:
"I see that the Pavlovian dogs are barking (mad) again this morning."
Yes, they have nothing constructive to say. They don't contribute to NR's blog about Westminster and the unbelievable mess that unionist Britain is in, caused by the failure of generations of British nationalist politicians and an undemocratic British constitutional system that has failed.
Has TheStonemason been critical of McNulty on any blog?
They only attack the NAT and WAG because they are anti-devolution. Their solution is the continuing misery pouring out of Westminster, particularly in Wales' direction.
That is not to say that the NAT and WAG don't deserve criticism. They are weak, almost powerless to defend Wales from the ravages of recession.
I don't agree with culling the badgers either, because the scientific evidence is weak or non-existent. Elin Jones is wrong, it matters not to me that she is a Plaid Minister.
Her mistake, though, pales into insignificance compared to what's happened in Westminster.
Imo Plaid made a strategic error by joining Labour, and IWJ compounded the mistake by remaining there, despite having failed to achieve anything much in two years - except perhaps a thousand dead badgers.
Playing a weak second fiddle to Labour when he had no trump cards, other than the 'nuclear option' of exiting the coalition, was a silly idea. He can only play that card once. Consequently, Labour has been able to run rings around Plaid.
Its time to pull the plug, Ieuan, cut your losses, and leave the badgers in peace.
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Re 4
Precisely bochgoch.
The Welsh Government will never do anything that this lot who don't believe in a Welsh democracy will be able to applaud.
mapexx has up to now thrown his vile and mindless insults in the direction of those of us who believe in Wales as a nation and a democracy, and those of us who celebrate and cherish the Welsh language. Now he has new targets, but his insults are the same and just as mindless and unworthy of being part of any debate, as well as a personal insult to Betsan, who's blog this is.
He said:
"So in effect, leave the badgers be, they harm no one, except the unstable mental deficients in the Environment and farming communities."
As for the badgers, I think I probably support the plans. There is absolutely no way that Elin Jones or the Welsh Government can be accused of having rushed into this. Let's hope for a successful outcome. I trust that everyone on here would agree with that. Even if they choose not to congratulate anyone at the end of the process.
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Badgers in Britain are interesting to research scientists because they live in social groups. Normally, in other parts of the world, they live solitary lives. We don't yet know why they live social lives in GB. How sad though that their sociability will make it easier to catch them and slaughter them here. Of course the minister has no reputable scientific support for her proposed cull. The only scientific certainty is that she will make a cull in the numbers of people who will vote for Plaid Cymru in future elections. As a supporter of both Plaid Cymru and the Assembly I am beginning to think now that both of them are a bad thing. I will be desperately sad not to vote for wonderful Jill Evans and hard-working, brave Leanne Wood in coming elections - but this is what I'll have to do. If this cull goes ahead then I'll be writing '1000 dead badgers' on any voting slip I fill in. The logic is obvious - if Wales does not contain enough vocal support for wildlife to kill off this unwise measure then Wales is too small a unit to be viable politically.
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Hands off our hard working proud Welsh Badgers!
This evil cull is simply to spite Comrade Ron because he sneered at the Assembly's "free gifts, drugs and bus passes for all" policy. (their only popular one in 10 years) !
THE BADGERS UNITED WILL NEVER BE DEFEATED!!!
What next, MASSACRE THE MARXIST DUCKS?
PICKET ROATH PARK LAKE NOW!
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About flippin' time - for too long the townie 'little furry friend' brigade have had a veto over the policy which will help farmers.
This brigade don't feel the pain of having to get rid of cattle, and the shock, expense and disruption to businesses and livelihoods.
Give the cull a chance to work, instead of lily-livered pandering to the animal rights brigade every blooming time.
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brynt41
Which McNulty, which blog?
For once though I tend to agree with your sentiments, badgers and Plaid, particularly Plaid, it's time to pull the plug, Ieuan, cut your losses, and leave the badgers in peace,
I would add
"lets not stop at the border Ieuan, keep going ....... Patagonia has a benign climate".
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Good for you Elin. Throw off the 'Green' shackles which many of us nationalists think have held back Plaid Cymru since Cynog Dafis's Faustian pact in 1992.
Bring back coal. Build roads. Its a country to be lived and worked in, not a filmset.
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Only goes to show what an absolutely useless bunch of troughers we have in this totally unnecessary tier of government called the "assembly".
They really are a puffed up gang of error prone wasters whose main purpose is to accumulate as much salary and (untaxed) expenses as possible.
Just watch these boring clowns on TV. They are an embarrassment to Wales. As I have now retired(early) I often watch their truly awful attempts to appear clever while speaking. . . .buffoons all.
This expensive talking-shop really cannot be allowed to continue. The referendum count is one all. One 4-1 against devolution and one ever so slightly in favour (0.06 majority). Surely it is now time to call a third referendum and sweep these assembly clowns away from their self-seeking chattering down the Bay of Pigs.
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brynt41
Is there nothing that Westminster has done that pleases you?
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#15
In a word..... Nope
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brynt41
Not even:
the NHS
the State Pension
the Police
the Air Traffic Control
the Constitution that does not have
Sedition
Capital Punishment
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message 18....
What is required by some, is anarchy.
They wouldn't recognise the rule of clear and sane law if they saw it, all they want is to run their own affairs, their own way, and to hell with everyone else.
But at least 41 wants to save the badgers, maybe because that is one of his main attributes, ...badgering people who he seems to disagree with.
However, having read back over most of his messages of recent times, he would seem to disagree one moment, and then agree the next.
So totally inconsistent.
But, Oh! so well up on pasting down from other folks erudite scribblings.
A common trait of certain persons.
Strange behaviour, I must say.
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#18
I'd deal with all of them, if I had time.
'Sedition' is most interesting. As I understand it, its still a common law offence, although its removal was recommended by the Law Commission some years back.
Statute law in the UK covers just about everything nowadays. Its being used as a tool of repression, increasingly since the Thatcher years, and especially under Blair. Three thousand new offences in 10 years, and a radical curtailing of the freedom to protest, and a build-up of vast government databases on the individual. We are headed in the direction of a 'police state', without the necessary constitutional safeguards. Fifty three items of information have to be passed on to the US Department of Homeland Security before any British citizen can embark on a visit.
Of course, sedition is linked to freedom of expression, or free speech. The British State is one of the most secretive in the world, even since the FoI Act. It is possible to get information about the British Government's actions via the US FoI Act, but impossible here. Cabinet and other papers are sealed for decades. The media here voluntarily does not publish material which might threaten the overturn of a government. The British media has been described as 'tame' (The BBC is a prime example). Editors of newspapers routinely ring up the relevant government department to check if its ok to publish concerning 'delicate' issues, which might be the subject of a D Notice (and yes, they do exist in 2009!). Laws aren't needed in the UK. Someone commented regarding the British media.. 'Why muzzle a pet lamb?'.
You're asking me to praise the UK for not having the death penalty? Its akin to praising someone for not murdering his mother, or stealing from a baby. There are some things that are basically wrong, and capital punishment is one of those, for several very good reasons.
I'm on the badgers' side too. We need them. The problem is animal husbandry in the UK, not our wildlife, of which we have precious little. Postwar agricultural methods in the UK have devasted the landscape, its fauna and flora in just 50 years. It has to stop.
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IN case you had me down as bunny hugging veggie I am not, I live by the peaks on a diet of lots of fresh shot rabbbit, hare, pidgeon etc.
It pigs me off when politicians do things for which there is NO sound basis. It is the arguement of; we must do something and this is something (see Gordon Brown)
The decent studies suggest a cull will not fix the problem. To help farmers needs a co-ordinated policy that seeks to reduce ALL transmission paths on a long term basis. But this is difficult because it might challenge things, eg trucking animals across the country so it can be labled 'Welsh', poor biosecurity, easy movement of livestock etc
So instead what you get is a cull, a sop. TB numbers will drop in the cull area for a while, surrounding areas may see an increase. Then within the cull area the levels of TB will return, transmitted through cattle movement, badgers(?) returning, etc and in the end we'll be no further forward reducing TB.
Why not ask; What is your long term strategy? Where is the evidence? What is the action plan ?What are the timescales? Who will monitor and publish the success data? Optimism and 'let's give it a go' is what your leaders want to hear because it means they are of the hook for another few years.
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brynt41, your reply at #20 .....
The British Constitution grows by recognising its own failures, that is why ancient failings drop off, sedition is going while Capital Punishment went, there lies the strength of the United Kingdom, transparent and changing.
The Welsh separatists have created a sideshow that somehow has almost hijacked good governance in Wales. This minor political grouping has failed to demonstrate what it proposes to, in words that the electorate would understand, and which promised land is beckoning .....
..... no vision.
Have you noticed that Plaid and its separatist allies never admit to having made a mistake, this alliance has become adept at twisting the successes of others presenting them as its own achievements.
..... no substance
..... no future.
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It is unlikely that any of the abusive contributors to this thread have any idea what the implications of Bovine TB have for cattle, badgers or the farming community in those areas badly affected by it.
The idea that we can leave the badgers alone is overpoweringly simplistic. In some areas the badger population is riddled with TB. A cull is probably the best opportunity we will have to clear out the infected population and, with time, and continued good managment of the cattle herds, we may be able to establish TB badger populations into the countryside. Talk of wiping out badgers is ludicrous and unhelpful.
For many years, many millions have been spent on culling cattle, but the problem has got worse and worse. Culling badgers has to be tried and it is to Elin Jones' eternal credit that she has listened to ALL the evidence and concluded that a test run needs to start in North Pembrokeshire.
Healthy badgers and healthy cattle will help us have a healthy farming sector, which is good for the economy and the consumer. A responsible government is duty bound to act in a case like this. We've waited long enough, now I hope that the Badger lovers will stand back and let the trial cull proceed peacefully to see if it brings results that can be beneficial to all.
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Stonemason
I would love to know who the "separatist allies" of Plaid are.
You are so funny sometimes! That last posting literally makes no sense.
Plaid are in government but have hijacked government and failed to demonstrate what they want and has no vision and twists the success of others into its own achievements...
Sounds to me like you are just annoyed that democracy has delivered the government we have and that the world hasn't actually ended because Plaid are part of it. A minority party is perfectly entitled to go into coalition and play its part in running the country.
Clearly, in your world there should be a monolithic one-party state (your party) which makes no mistakes and needs never to explain itself. It has to crush all divergence of opinion and squash dissent flat. Or at least that is the tone of pretty much everything you have to say!
Lighten up comrade...
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message 24....
I don't doubt that those concerned have studied all the 'evidence', however, culling badgers has been tried before, quite a few times, with little benefit to either cattle or badgers.
The best analogy I can give is, trying to put out a fire by pouring petrol on it.
ll you do is make things worse.
As I said before, cattle, especially dairy cattle are prone to TB for the simple reason they are bred to the most economic level, and are 'unnatural' in their breeding.
Medically speaking they are effectively 'weakened' by their breeding, they have low tolerance to disease.
Much in the same way as dogs are over bred and inbred. Perpetuating and concentrating breeding weaknesses.
In the wild, cattle may suffer from many diseases, but natural breeding and selection takes care of the matter.
The fault lies with man, plain and simple. All his efforts are towards making money, and if that means the eradication of all wild life, as perceived to be a danger to that process, then all wildlife must be eradicated. Politicians of all colours follow that creed.
Money is God.
We have created dairy cattle for one reason and one reason only, to produce milk. Their metabolism is totally geared to that end, so it is to be expected that weaknesses come through.
We do not need all the milk we produce, the medical profession constantly despairs over the amount of dairy produce we consume, it leads to heart problems and obesity.
Possibly also various cancers. Especially in children.
Check with your GP if you don't believe me.
But my main concern is the inability of politicians to strike at the root of the problem, as is usual with such bullies, they attack those least able to defend themselves.
They are little more than replacements for the hunting brigade, thankfully, for the moment, banned from killing for sport, another animal, the fox, that has proved to be both hardly guilty of the crimes set against it, and fully able to become a balanced part of the environment if left to it's own devices.
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A POSITIVE SUGGESTION:
Wales is over-run by large angry badgers?
and....
Our (fat) school children need nutricious meals?
ANSWER! HEALTHY Organic Badger burgers, roasts, pepper steaks and Badger Baltis!!!
JOB DONE!
Think of the profits for Plaid funds! "Helen Mary's Bumper Badger Cookbook"... a sure fire winner for the WELSH kredit krunch family. The S4C spin off programmes...
Our nationalistic youth will be overjoyed at their lunchtime fest and will happily vote Plaid when and if they grow up!!! Even for Adam's Independence!
What's not to like?
What goes around etc.
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This thread sounds as though it was written by a load of chest-beating silverbacks. It is supposed to be about an enormous badger cull and consequent upset of the ecological balance in North Pembrokeshire. It is also about a crazy Minister who thinks she can get quantifiable results by ‘stamping out the disease from all possible directions’. This is the full quote from the Record of Proceedings - she is replying to a question about speed of removing reactors:
However, I can write you with the most
recent figures on reactor removal times. This
is one issue that we will consider tightening
up in the pilot area that I announced in north
Pembrokeshire, and we may consider
reducing the target date for removal from 20
days to 10 days so that we can stamp out the
disease from all possible directions.
In other words she improves the speed of removing infected cattle from the herds in the area of the cull and, lo and behold, then claims it is the removal of the badgers that has led to the reduction of the disease. This is nightmare science.
Come on guys, this is the year we celebrate the work of Darwin and Wallace! Let’s give scientific method some respect.
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#24 mapexx wrote:
"The fault lies with man, plain and simple. All his efforts are towards making money, and if that means the eradication of all wild life, as perceived to be a danger to that process, then all wildlife must be eradicated. Politicians of all colours follow that creed. Money is God."
Well, I never thought I'd agree on anything you said, but I do with all of it!.
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First of all I would like to say I don't agree with this decision, the science is decidedly mixed. I don't think this is something that you can say is Plaid's, or Labour's fault as all four parties in the National Assembly officially back this move. So the advice from the Agriculture department officials must be fairly strong for this to go ahead. I think its wrong and we need to look at other methods - there is hope for a mass oral vaccination of badgers and maybe we should vaccinate all affected farm animals. It will cost a fortune but it looks like this problem is growing exponentially. Something clearly has to be done. While I can't support the method and think its based on dodgy science, it is in a restricted area and I don't think the sky will fall in as a result.
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message 29....
You mention costs.....
think of the last foot and mouth cull of cattle...
The cost of immunising all cattle was talked about as being far too expensive.
A jab per cow, cost negligible, effect cows either cured or prevented from being infected.
Total, maybe a couple of millions.
Meat even from infected animals, safe for human consumption, therefore nothing thrown away.
Few, if any, farmers and their families traumatised, or even bankrupted.
Cost of the cull, per cow, hundreds of pounds, all the transporting to disposal centres, all the digging up of mass burial plots, the smell of singed flesh hanging over the country for weeks on end, to what end?
Total, taking all the compensation into account along with the disposal costs, hundreds of millions.
The disease is no more damaging, if treated, than the common cold in humans.
But to return to the cost... what cost the recycling of dead animals to feedstock. Result, BSE with the potential, or even factual transmission of JCD into humans, quite a few having died a most despicable death from JCD, mostly young people with a life ahead cruelly stolen away.
The manufacture of such feedstock being created by those same scientists, as they cutched up to the farming industry in it's search for ever increased profits.
And we are supposed to TRUST these politicians just because they tell us that EXPERTS have told them it's alright to solve the problem by slaughtering a few wild animals.
I wouldn't trust either the politicians or their so called experts, they are all of a kind, total wasters, not fit for purpose, and if ever there was a need for a cull, it should start with those politicians and their experts.
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If we throw away the experts, then what is left?, you have judgments made just on gut instinct. I think this whole anti politics, anti expert line is very dangerous. Of course we should retain our critical faculties and not accept everything from the people who are expert in a field as there may be other considerations to take in to account. And yes vaccination would be very expensive as I am talking about vaccinating the entire badger population of Wales as well as all the farm animals affected by this terrible condition. Its not just the cattle that suffer, the badgers do as well. I am glad that the Rural Affairs minister is taking this seriously, I don't agree with the solution but at least this is not an issue that is being ignored. I will look with interest to see what this trial (for that is what it is) does, and I am glad that my government is actively doing something rather than washing my hands. Make no mistake, this isn't a rapacious minister who wants blood on her hands, she wants a viable solution.
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The idea of a cull of badgers horrifies me - I support most of what has been said above.
Most farmers seem to be pleased with Elin, something has to be done.
The cost to the Assembly is horrific.
The cost to the farmers who have invested years of work in building their herds, is the loss of a lifetimes work - beyond price.
From what I can establish most (all) experts have strong reservations, and while agreeing that a trial may provide some data, are opposed to a cull!
Historically culls have brought short term relief but not a cure.
Culls have been demonstrated not to be effective.
This link may be useful;
http://www.woodland-trust.org.uk/campaigns/briefingsmore/badgers.htm
I live in a rural area, two farmers (friends) close to me have lost herds to TB in the last few weeks.
We have not had this problem in the immediate area before this.
However the LNG line runs through & close to the farms.
Prior to construction Badgers sets along the route were destroyed.
Badgers from outside are now repopulating the area, - is it possible they are bringing it in.
However;
Bovine TB is not a uniquely Welsh problem - English and Scots farmers are facing the same problem.
Isn't this something, that needs the full resources of the UK and DEFRA to sort out, but a also a common UK policy.
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Sorry - meant to have included this link to the BBC's 2006 report on the findings of the Kreb's Trial;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4783368.stm
"Simple changes in farming practice could stem the spread of tuberculosis in cattle, new research suggests. "
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message 28....
If you care to analyse most of what I pen, I think you will find yourself agreeing a with darn sight more.
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Is the Minister for Rural Affairs intending to take the defenceless first, and then when having wiped and ridded the country of what is considered a threat to life as we know it, proudly advertise her achievements with dead pellets!!! ...or has she the guts to do what most GP's in the UK do, and wait for the test results to have an informed diagnosis!!
All over the UK, the NHS promote life, we, as human beings cannot even die with dignity when we want to, but a heartless excuse for a knowledgeable leader, hasn't the gall to wait a reasonable period to see if advances in medical science have been achieved, she chooses to promote her godley status by total extermination of a species
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message 35...
...... 'Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely'....
Fortunately we have the opportunity to dispose of such despicable people at an election.
Unless and until Wales becomes a totally independant State, we at least have that option.
Thereafter, should it come to such a dismal point, there's no telling what the power mad freaks will get up to.
In the meanwhile, anything on four legs, that does not come with a farmer attached, had better watch out!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Regarding Message 37....
I assume this was moderated due to the content being rather off thread, It was a jocular message continuing the theme of culling due to TB.
But it was not serious in it's content.
However I thought the mods may have seen through the joking and allowed it.
They did not,...
Se la Vie!
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Re 38
mapexx said:
"I assume this was moderated due to the content being rather off thread, It was a jocular message continuing the theme of culling due to TB.
But it was not serious in it's (sic) content."
What??!! Culling is a joking matter??!!
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message 39, .....
As yo did not see the message, you are in no position to make comments on it.
In fact your remarks are totally inappropriate regarding the content of the removed message.
Once again you shoot your mouth off.
Consider this,... engage brain before typing , you may get more respect.
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message 39, .....
As you did not see the message, you are in no position to make comments on it.
In fact your remarks are totally inappropriate regarding the content of the removed message.
Once again you shoot your mouth off.
Consider this,... engage brain before typing , you may get more respect.
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I really do not believe that people are joking about this matter.
Itumpi seems to have the idea of the consequences of any proposed culling. Who are we to determine the death of a whole population of a species in a habitat?
We saved the red kite from extinction but lets cull badgers - a protected species - because it is a convenience that they are/may be passing on TB to cattle!!
What about vaccines? What about thinking instead of panicking?
I sympathise with farmers who's livelyhood is at risk. Government should compensate - the farmers are not at fault for living near infested/possibly infected badgers.
We need to protect our environment for future generations but not be being gun-happy and killing anything we say as a potential threat!!!
Do we need to rear as many cattle as we do?
One blogger mentioned obesity in children - well, lets discourage so much dairy produce.
Someone else mentioned importing!!!! Well that is another issue completely!!!
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message 42....
In making those points about dairy and importing, I add the following.....
I see, in the deli counter at most Tesco stores, beef and other meat products from places such, as Argentina, Bolivia, and elsewhere, so we are already into importing meats.
The matter of dairy,.... often it is overlooked by those who defend the trade, that in order to get milk, a cow has to be impregnated, either naturally, or by AI.
This ultimately results in two end products, milk, of course, and...... all those dear little calves.
Which are invariably shipped off, away from their mother, to be slaughtered for their by products, veal, mainly, and ultra soft leathers.
This leaves the mother with an udder full of the white stuff, which in turn is taken for the great British public to consume in various forms, and in enormous quantities.
Two problems arise from this, one we are not biologically constructed to drink cows milk, that is for calves to drink, and two above a very small intake, it lies on our frames as FAT, leading to high cholesterol, fatty hearts, general adiposity, and a host of other more serious problems, such as cancers of various types.
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Re 43
Yes you will see imported beef products in the supermarkets, but that does not make it right!
We import because it is cheaper than ours. But at what cost to the environment?
We should be cutting down our meat intake - twice a week will give adequate amino acids that our bodies require. We do not need to eat the quantities we do.
Cattle add significantly to the global warming problem. They give out methane which is one of the gases that blankets our planet and stops radiation from getting back out of our atmosphere.
Cattle are one extra level in a food chain - they take up space that could be used to grow staple crops to feed many more people.
Cattle are even grazing in what was rain forests - so that we [ certainly not me] can have our McDonalds or similar!!! Cutting down these rain forests has a two pronged effect leading to global warming. Firstly the 'carbon fixers' [ trees] that take in the carbon dioxide that we are putting into the atmosphere at a greater rate, are disappearing, so there is more build up of CO2 [the other gas that blankets the Earth] in the atmosphere ! And secondly we are burning these trees and this is adding even more CO2!!!
On an environmental note - global warming and reduction of rainforests lead to reduction in biodiversity!
Do we really want to endorse all of this by buying foreign meat?
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message 44....
I do agree in fact, yes I am well aware of the deforestation, especially in south America, but the world has demanded beefburgers, (not me though, I hate the bloody things, especially those, so called, mobile catering vans on the sides of many of our roads and outside large stores in shopping parks, stinking nasty things as they are).
My point was this....
The farmers of this country have been living for decades on subsidisation, be it cattle, dairy, or crops.
Currently they are 'earning' big bucks from 'set aside', and other EU generated fiscal programmes. Needed because otherwise they'd have no income.
The global economic treaties have set in motion the idea of meat being shipped from one continent to another, it is supposed to bring relative wealth to those third world nations.
Everything was going well until MONEY became more important than industry, production, and food.
The result is why the top 20 are having a gabfest in London at the moment.
Their unified cry is, ' we must not opt for protectionist policies.'
Which means open trade between all states.
Now unfortunately we see the down side of this, in vast areas of our countryside lying idle whilst the rain forests are being hacked down to create grazing and subsistence farms for peasant farmers.
That is all they have to work and live on, their industrial base is virtually none existent.
Because we are party to international trade agreements we cannot get out of this dilemma.
In agreeing with your previous message, I am not giving you an argument in other parts of the messages, just stating what is the facts of the matter.
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Re 45
I accept the statements that you are putting forward regarding the policical agendas. I do not know enough about the policies and agreements between nations to discuss them.
My point is that this shipping of commodities around the world is pointless. Yes we need to support the farmers and other workers around the globe but surely there are other ways!!! Yes we can agree to ship crops that cannot be grown in this county but to ship meat and crops that we can rear and grow ourselves is ludicrous!! We import New Zealand lamb!! We export Welsh lamb!!
We import leeks from half way across the planet!! We grow them in farms in the Gower! How crazy is this?
It has also been decide that if we cull the badgers everything will be OK. The bovine TB will be sorted!! But it will not be sorted. We need to try to eradicate the TB not the protected species.
We punish anyone who kills badgers unlawfully - and quite rightly so. But the government thinks it has the right to override this in order to save cows!!
I know that this is oversimplifying the issues but surely we need to stop and think. It is about time we started thinking about the planet that we are leaving our future generations!!!
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message 46....
You get no argument from me, I have already slated the idea of culling badgers and made issue of the fact the government is taking up the slack of the hunting fraternity by doing exactly what they are now banned from doing.
I think my outline of the meat matter in my previous message tells you why we cannot refuse to take products from exotic sources.
I don't defend that arrangement, but agree, as I said in making the point about our fallow landscape.
I have another point to make regarding that though, when I go through France, I see vast tracts of land under the plough, we can emulate their farming only in very limited parts of the UK, we just do not have the expanse of open territory to match theirs, we have concreted over much of our landscape, and as we are engaged in world trade, it is not unreasonable to import certain foodstuffs, especially from our Continental colleagues.
I can also follow the argument regarding leeks coming in , along side roses, and other horticultural items, from Africa and the far east, that's the penalty, or reward, for having cheap air transport, it creates on an industrial basis, industry where none existed before, thereby raising the living standards of third world populations, this is another aspect of overseas aid.#
So we are in a cleft stick commercially and internationally speaking, we either give no aid at all, or give only aid, or we help develop a sense of industry which enables those populations to come int the first world.
That is why we call them 'developing' nations.
That is where the treaties come into play.
I hope that make it somewhat clearer as to why we import stuff we can readily produce ourselves.
Not an acceptable scenario to many I can understand, but we are but small change in the global market place. The best we can do is buy what is there, in the knowledge we may be helping world trade.
Other than that we will shrivel into ourselves, destroy the EU, world trade agreements and bring down the wrath of the world upon our necks.
Where I also sense a problem is the ever upwards rise in populations, aided enormously by the likes of some religious leaders refusing to accept the need for contraceptive practices, all of which tends to exacerbate the demands of the third world for equality of wealth with the first world.
We have to tackle that exploding population problem as a priority, but in the meanwhile we have no option but to feed this ever increasing world population.
None of this can be taken in isolation, I am afraid, so whilst on a local scale I readily agree with you, I also have to look to the
wider world picture, in which I also have to agree with what is happening world wide.
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