Back to Perthcelyn
From reading your comments, so far, on tonight's programme on the Warner family from Perthcelynit seems pretty clear that you think you know the Warners and their type only too well.
Maybe you do. I'm not sure I did get them when I first met them nearly a decade ago and I'm still not sure I get them now. But these are good people: I get that.
Yes, they should smoke less, drink less Red Bull or the cheaper substitutes, drink far less cherry brandy on a Friday night, watch less tv, eat fewer chips and crisps. They don't want to and they're not going to. Neither are they going to insist their grandchildren, Logan, Seren and their long list of cousins work hard in school and dismiss complaints that the teachers have it in for them. Perhaps they should but they don't want to and they're not going to. Dad Glen shouldn't have a fag in his mouth when he's taking his own blood pressure but he has. The children should mean it when they say they'd take on any job cleaning toilets if it meant a better life for newly born and unborn Warner babies. They probably don't.
But they are kind to each other, welcoming, funny, defiant and absolutely untouched by the millions the Assembly Government has spent on trying to lift their family and families like them all over Wales out of poverty and deprivation. The Communities First initiative has worked elsewhere. Communities took to it and made it work for them. In Perthcelyn they just didn't. The Warners' lives tell you as much.
Experts tend not to be easily moved by what they see, so when they are it must be worth wondering why.
Standing on the bitterly cold mountainside above the estate where they live, I asked the health economist what's the one thing she would do to make the lives of the next Warner generation better. She hesitated. Pulled a face as if so to say, can I really say it, do I have to say it? Then put it very simply: that she would take them away from here, bring them up in an area where life expectancy is higher, health scores generally better, half the number of people on incapacity benefit, twice as many likely to get to university.
"Let's all move to Mountain Ash" declared Glen "we'll live longer!" But the Warners are going nowhere.
You may know people like them only too well but that doesn't make the uphill struggle facing Logan and the wide-eyed Seren any easier to accept.
Some more thoughts on the Warner family - with thanks to Glen, Ann and the children for opening doors and lives so willingly all over again - here.
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
© MMX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~58~RS~)
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Policy Exchange, in their study entitled .....
"Cities Unlimited Making urban regeneration work" .....
..... Suggest, as did Betsan's the health economist, that .....
"Towns that were once in the right place at the right time, may now well be in the wrong place at the wrong time, severely restricting their ability to attract jobs. No one is suggesting that residents should be forced to move, but we do argue that they should be told the reality of the position: regeneration, in the sense of convergence, will not happen, because it is not possible."
Might it be the time to tear down the village.
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Ever so slightly patronising Betsan - for quality of life there is wonderful countryside within minutes of Perthcelyn - great for cycling.
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Watched it now - absolutely pathetic - I grew up in an identical environment and could not have had a better upbringing. Perhaps you could give me a TV crew to monitor the Cocaine sniffing Cardiff middle classes. Total dross.
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I was really upset by the program and the lack of aspirations that any of them had. It appeared to be an achievement for them to survive from year to year let alone achive anything.
I understand fully how they need to be educated regarding their lifestyle and health but it is tragic to think about what may happen to the younger members of the family in the future. It amazed me how proud the family were that the 17 year old was about to become a father - the look on his face in the hospital he didn't have a clue what being a father was about.
I agree that they have a lot of love between them but they need more than that if they are to ever break the cycle they are in.
Children learn from their parents. If the parents are unhealthy and don't work, why would the children want to.
If the parents can't guide them it is up to schools and healthcare officials to do this and stop the cycle.
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The family has a very depressing vision of the future, "No Future".
The programme, although not an uplifting experience, demonstrates "politicians do not build or sustain communities". It is might be time for "Cardiff Bay" to back off and let these communities die back, much like bracken does during winter, communities only thrive where there is economic activity.
What would be the affect upon the housing stock of Perthcelyn if the Housing LCO were applied? Political nonsense.
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I watched the programme after it being "trailed" in blog by BP. The contents came as no surprise to me personally but plainly the "family" have desperately poor lives and are seemingly trapped both physically and emotionally. It was curious however how "happy" they seemed together and how stoically the grand parents dealt with the arrival of 27th/28th grandchild. No doubt BBC Wales paid for the private health checks which only confirmed what even a non medical person would have suspected and what their GP would have told them in consultations. One has to be very careful today in this PC world about making comments/observations of personal lifestyles,however when such lifestyle is funded from general taxation it is surely up to politicians to take action. It was interesting how reticent the health economist was in making her observations on "improving" the family,fear I suppose not to be seen as Judgemental which is the great sin today. The involvement of political classes i.e Hugh Lewis and Christine Chapman showed the interllectual sterility there is in welsh labour in dealing with the welsh "Underclass" who are increasing at an alarming rate if you believe the statistics. Clearly work seems to be fundamental in elevating all people out of "poverty" and in last 10 years there has been virtually full employment in M4 corridor, with people travelling from mittle europa to find work so if they wouldnt work then what chance is there now. I would suggest to BBC Wales that they interview Frank Field MP who understands whats going in in the "welfare" world and the radical changes needed to put things right and fair to ordinary people who are working harder than ever to put gfood on table and keep roof over their head. In conclusion the state cannot allow the "degredation" of its human stock whereby all its resources are going to people who have no intention of living careful/conservative lifestyles and contributing through work to the general betterment of society.. If work wont come to you then you've got to go to work where ever it can be found.
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Betsan....
Surley these folk, good or bad as they are perceived to be, are the product of a 'benefit' society.
IT is unfortunate that, thanks to the bleeding heart liberals and general 'do gooders' our social framework is now constructed around unemployment and benefit payouts.
The courts see fit to penalise some lawbreakers by enforced community work. Considering the state of much of our environment, I would estimate a far greater amount needs to be tackled to bring the UK up to a decent standard, so therefore, in order to 'earn' benefit, why cannot such people, as those in the programme, be 'employed' under similar terms.
Their work ethic would be restored, their community would gain, and they would be able to stand proud for the achievements their efforts would generate.
I find it incredible in this 21st century that we tolerate total reliance on state handouts by people, who, under a normal regime would be gainfully employed in industry.
That such employment is not available, is an excuse, pure and simple.
I cannot argue about the particular family being basically decent, as I do not know them, however, even 'decent' people are subject to a degree of disciplined lifestyle, especially if being funded by the taxpayer.
If they are incapable of self discipline,which many are capable of, and practice, then I see no valid reason why they cannot be subjected to discipline from the State.
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A very worthwhile programme Betsan ~ many congratulations...there is occasionally a BBC Wales beyond Roy Noble...
A (nagging) point ~ Why wasn't more made of the Mountain Ash comparitor... "better by half on all indications " if Dave Adamson is to be believed...?
The programme could otherwise leave the impression (to those pre- impressed) that nothing further can or should be done "by or for people like that" (shorthand for "rabble") ...the underclass are responsible for own their situation.. the poor for their poverty...so let's ("us") more on and concentrate on the "aspirational"...(i.e. "us").
John Berger once described the worse thing about poverty (in Gaza) as the continual "almost"... the destructive awareness of what could "almost" have been...to me its the passivity and horrific fatalism it induces. But that keeps "us" safe at night. So far.
BTW ~ BBC Wales should usefully ask the "experts" where the regeneration millions went? A HELL of a lot of it...to the same "experts" for EU programme design and evalution...Cardiff University etc., hang your heads and weap.
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Re 6
Snoutsintrough an insightfull comment ;
Your final point;
"the state cannot allow the "degredation" of its human stock whereby all its resources are going to people who have no intention of living careful/conservative lifestyles and contributing through work to the general betterment of society.. If work wont come to you then you've got to go to work where ever it can be found".
We live in a society that considers it is responsible for those who take no responsibility for themselves.
There are those who need support - there are those, the benefit society is destroying.
What chance have those born into that atmosphere.
The ideaology that an aspirational society is a bad thing, achievement and success is to be abhored, is also damaging.
It conceals the truth that a better life is attainable beyond the sad sink estates of the underclass.
This underclass is growing at an alarming rate - we simply cannot continue to support it for ever.
If support is withdrawn the result will not be pleasant.
Both Frank Field and Duncan Smith have done considerable work in this area, they have proposals - probably better ideas than those currently in play.
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Thank you 9. It was interesting that in the Dragons Eye programme last night there was report about wide variations in local authorities policies regarding charges for care in residential homes for elderly and also enforced sale of owner occupied properties to pay for such care. A gentleman from Caerphilly I believe was explaining about his mother in law whose husband had worked for 40 plus years and saved money had been forced to sell her home. He felt that such people who had played by the rules should have accumulated "social capital" which should pay for the elderly lady in residential care.Whoever you talk to from ordinary working class background like myself wonder about exactly the same matter and how the people who play by the rules seem to be getting"stiffed"by the state whilst the "underclass" in all its glory are able to live on state benefits without making any contribution what so ever. I frankly despair at the policies of WAG in pumping endless money into "regeneration" in its entirety without there being any effective evidence that the "investment" is bearing fruit and there are reductions in people claiming Incapacity etc . We are heading to a third world status where the "tidy" and reasonably affluent are going to be gateing their communities to keep out the great "unwashed"as best they can.
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Surely it would be better if physically capable people were made to earn their benefits rather than just the ‘hand out’ culture that exists today.
Why pay someone to sit at home when they could be cleaning their streets, painting railings, helping the elderly, etc.
Some may feel this is harsh but I think it is important that people do not lose the habit of working for a living.
Many of the so called ‘underclass’ in these valleys come from a long line of hard working coal mining families.
How has this culture of laziness and welfare dependency come about?
The answer is simple; we throw too much money at these people and ask for nothing in return.
It can be no surprise therefore that they turn their backs against the work ethic that everyone else abides by.
Furthermore, most non-welfare dependant families tend to have fewer children. Fact!!
For many this is because of financial restraint as much as anything else.
For welfare dependant families no such restraint exists, in fact every child is seen as a financial bonus and this was quite apparent from watching your documentary.
I do not have the answers to this particular problem and in this PC political age I cannot see any political party having the gumption to sort it out.
However, the two people in this documentary have had thirteen children all bar four of which are welfare dependant.
They now have twenty seven grandchildren who most likely (and I hope I am wrong here) will also be dependant on state handouts from the cradle to the grave.
A very basic grasp of arithmetic tells us that we have a massive problem here and it will just continue to get worse. By the time the next generation of this family comes along these two people may be responsible for literally hundreds of welfare dependant offspring.
The really sad and frightening thing about it all is that this family are not uncommon in these ex-mining communities.
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i think the lot of them are workshy , you only have to look at there gardens and the size they are to see that , the state must pay them well to smoke and drink and keep pets , and they seem to have all the mod cons , and when the young lad went tearing down the street on a motor bike with a passenger on the back none were wearing crash helmets , i bet the police never prosecuted them , even though the evidence is on film , when i was out of work during the last recession i got of my behind and went to Germany to work , so my view is they are going to sit around smoking while the working population pay for it and if they moved about a bit more they wouldnt be so obese
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It is very very easy to see how this family can be criticised, however they do come over as a loving family with many positive attributes. They have slid into a culture of dependency - and in a community where a large percentage are in a similar position it becomes something of a norm. It has been suggested that the solution is to permit the community to die, I would say that this would cause immeasurable suffering as one of the few things such communities have is a sense of extended kinship - something lost in our more affluent atomised communities.
Lots of positive solutions, starting young, such as the initiatives on school meals - which will at least introduce pupils to healthier foods. A new community program offering incentives for people to do meaningful work in use in their communities might help as well. Plenty of other communities have good schemes up and running which put local people at the heart of the management of those schemes. We need some imagination here - condemning the family will not put things right and there are no quick solutions, we are probably talking about a 25 year program here to break the cycle.
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message ...13.....
Sorry Lyn, twenty five years?
I could turn their lives around in six months, tops.
I am afraid there has to be an element of compulsion involved, we have tried the fraternal and social approach, it does not work.
In my personal life I have relied on the unemployment benefit for very short periods, usually when in my early married state, and only when due to weather coditions work was not readily available in the building industry.
Once I became self employed, I either worked myself to a frazzle in being so, or went overseas for bigger and better money.
I always managed to support myself in the long term, and I suggest many who currently rely on state handouts should be placed into a situation of having such reliance time limited.
Beyond that limit, all handouts cease.
We would soon see a remarkable turn ariound in their fortunes, once the state prop was removed form them.
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mapexx
ditto to your #14 and I'm still getting up at 5.30 in the morning.
In 45 years of work I have been unemployed for exactly three weeks following the three day week in 1974, I joined the army and didn't look back.
Something to consider, National Service, not the namby pamby options, put them in green and give them the training that nurtures self respect and the confidence to meet the world head on.
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I have been thinking about this programme all weekend and the depressing scenario for the family, with generation after generation falling into the same trap of a poor education, teenage pregnancy, poor health and poverty.
You cannot as some have suggested, just close down the community and move them somewhere else, as there are so many similar places across Wales. Our geography will always create these situations, even in places like Swansea where a few communities look smack in the middle of the city on a map, but their hilltop reality makes a world of difference.
The education element for the family cannot just rely on the local school, as there needs to be an intervention in the home-using the state. Quite how this is managed I have no idea, as it would be a disaster to break the strong family bond that ensures they all get by.
The comparison with Moutain Ash would indeed have been an interesting one, but I suspect that you would then turn a one-off programme into a series. Perhaps a series looking how new ideas can help such a family would be a useful way forward.
It was great television, so well done to all involved.
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Stonemason,
I've lost count of the number of times you've now mentioned getting up at 5.30 in the morning. Do you object to this? Do you believe you are the only one? I applaud you for it, of course, and acknowledge your hard work, for which I'm sure you're rewarded, but please don't look for sympathy!
There clearly is a cultural problem in some of our communities. I reckon that education is the answer - not just in schools, but in the community as well. Young, old and middle aged. And I mean education in its broadest sense - as a tool in tackling a mindset which is clearly debilitating.
But it will take time - unfortunately.
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Re 17
Stonemason,
I suppose you've just 'moved on' again ...
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FiDafydd, your #17.
I was replying to mapexx at #14.
I disagree with your approach, I refer you to #1 and .....
Policy Exchange, in their study entitled .....
"Cities Unlimited Making urban regeneration work" .....
I thought this thread was finished .....
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Re 19
You disagree that education - in its broadest sense - has a part to play?
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FiDafydd
You read "Cities Unlimited Making urban regeneration work" and I'll discuss education.
I don't have time for games.
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Re 21
You do know that the great saviour - David Cameron - has called this report a load of rubbish?
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"Honey, we are assassinating the kids!"
The family concerned are living in a vicious circle and those I really do feel sorry for are the youngsters, brought up in an environment which isn't conducive to ambition, to any zest for life, achievement, and all thise things which most people aspire to. Kids don't ask to be born into a deprived environment but, as they grow up, they, as human beings, are surely capable of questioning the core values and doing something about it.
Smoking struck me as a really serious issue with many of them, especially the young mothers who are setting a shocking example to their children and also contributing to their ill health. It seems to me that those who can least afford it smoke the most - it saddened me especially when one of the sisters had her gas cut off - I bet she was still smoking, though! Where are people's priorities? At one time, smoking used to be fashionable, but not any more - there seems to have been an about-turn in attitudes, with uncreasing numbers wanting to quit.
In the past, the philosophy of any kind of counselling or rehab service has been "voluntarily, or not at all". Maybe it's time to question this, as any parents who smoke brazenly in front of their kids or whilst carrying unborn babies are definitely putting their children at risk - ample justification for intervention, in my view. I can well understand the mentality "How am I going to live without the crutch of the weed?", but it is possible - the key is to reminisce about childhood and youth, before they started smoking. They didn't need a crutch in those days, so they can revert to that state of mind, with will-power and aids, such as nicotine chewing-gums etc, hopefully free on prescription. Now that would be taxpayers' money well-spent in the long run, especially bearing in mind that it is the ordinary taxpayers who are subsidising the unhealthy lifestyle which will otherwise perpetuate itself from generation to generation relentlessly. Something needs to be done.
Healthy diet is another factor - schools should provide kids with plenty of greens and fruit lunch-time, and make such foods appealing to the children. Personal and Social Education also needs to concentrate on such matters as diet, drinking, smoking etc. Youngsters need to be informed that they can make choices, can exercise control and do something positive.
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Lets think here awhile. I have not seen this programme - just the clip on the link, but if this family exists here there will be many many others throughout Wales.
What comes to mind is - there but for the grace of God!!!!
I have managed to 'improve' my prospects compared with my parents. So have my children. It may be partly due to the way in which my parents encouraged me and how I have encouraged and supported my children. But it is not the only factor.
I was brought up on a 'council estate' but not in an isolated area! I have a reasonable level of intelligence and so got qualifications to enable me to get employment that is both enjoyable and well paid. This is not possible for everyone.
Education is important - but society needs to do this as a whole. This includes individuals within these neighbourhoods; actual neighbours; services that look after communities and any other service that has a link with families. Do not think that education is for schools, and schools alone!!! To many people, education = school. But education = the whole community. That means you and I.
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