Bosnia bound?
Perhaps it's the thought of having to travel up to North Wales, leading the All Wales Convention, that has put Sir Emyr Jones Parry off the job.
Perhaps it's something else.
Perhaps he intends, somehow, to keep sitting in the Chair for some time at least but a story that was spotted here and is confirmed here suggests Sir Emyr may be off to Bosnia.
Now if that's news to you, you might be interested to know that we're getting the distinct impression it could be news to one or two key people in the Welsh Assembly Government too.
Neither I nor my colleagues have yet spoken to Sir Emyr but he would, presumably, have had some say in the matter before his name was put forward for the post of EU Special Representative in Bosnia. Whether the position is eventually offered to him or not then - and we're told we'll know in around two weeks' time - he was clearly up for it. That, in itself, is significant.
If he is offered the post and accepts it, wouldn't that leave the All Wales Convention holed below the waters it is testing?
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~13~RS~)
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Diplomats generally know when to withdraw, and Sir Emyr Jones Parry is a man who can recognise a duck dead in the water.
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Well the "plot"thickens with the front man for the AWC seemingly prepared to leave for foreign climes and our "on the ball" government looking ridiculous. Without being too provocative has Sir Emyr Jones Parry seen the results of the early soundings of welsh public opinion and taken the view that Wales in riven completely on the issue of devolution in general and he's off. If that the case then Rhodri and his nationalist mates/welsh language fanatics will find somebody else with the right sounding name to keep the show on the road with the inevitable result of approval for greater powers.Perhaps and its only conjecture has the LONDON Labour government orchestrated this to destroy the AWC and thereby "dishing" the NATS and their fellow travellers down the Bay?? What about that for a conspiracy theory and it was spotted here first.
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Betsan,.... you can make my day by reporting further that the AWC is also off to 'Bosnia' (ie, history) along with it's chair.
Don't be shy now, girl... lets be having all the scuttlebutt you can tease out.
You're definiteley on a 'promise' if the news is GOOD for us Assembly bashers.
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He has obviously allowed his name to go forward and as a result his credibilty as Chair of the Commission is already shot to pieces. He also would not have done this unless he had already been given the nod that the job was his. The Greek nomination is dead in the water because Greece is too close to Serbia and both Italy and Austria have real baggage when it comes to to the Balkans. Who can blame him? He was obviously ill at ease in the Sandfields Labour Club. Bosnia will be a piece of cake compared to the divisions that exist in Wales as some of the regular contributors to this blog show.
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It seems Sir Emyr has got the measure of prevailing public opinion in Wales on further powers for the Assembly.
There again perhaps he is not keen on all those curry dishes.
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meesage 5...
It would seem, if he accepts the nomination, he will not be CURRYING favour in Cardiff.
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I CAN EXCLUSIVELY REVEAL that the reason for his trip is part of an ongoing, top secret, and CIA funded endeavour to introduce the sort of 'Balkanisation' seen in that part of the world as part of a 'divide and rule' strategy..
Well, maybe not, but I'm sure conspiracy theorists will think the 'military-industrial' complex are behind it..
Or maybe he just wants a holiday break somewhere less divided on religious and ethnic grounds and away from all the division and linguistic acrimony of modern day Wales..
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LOL! This is hilarious.
I think as stonemason says... he can recognise a dead duck in the water!
and I will also add that:
He may be biased, but he's not stupid :)
Now who will the WAG get to replace him for this very delicate and impartial role? Elfyn Llwyd? Helen Mary perhaps? the reincarnation of Owain Glydwr or maybe Cayo-Evans? How 'bout Seimon Glyn?
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"...but a story that was spotted here and is confirmed here suggests Sir Emyr may be off to Bosnia."
NO CHANGE THERE THEN FOR BRAVE SIR EMRY!
After Newport's cider fueled electorate , Bosnia will be a "Walk in the Park"...
Well any park but a Newport one after lunchtime!
Maybe they could draft (Geddit) Charlie Church in as a replacement?
She's big-up with the yoof.
Breaking News ~ "Rhodri Morgan says Grauniad report not to be trusted...Cruise missiles vital to Vale economy."
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
It's a shame, but no surprise, to see this glee among the British nationalists that Wales may lose the services of one of its best minds, and an eminent person of great experience.
I just don't believe them any more when they say that they just want what is best for Wales.
mapexx is perhaps the most virulent in his hatred, but the small-mindedness shown by the others is so very depressing ...
... until I remind myself that they represent only a small, a very small minority of Welsh people who indulge in self-hate. And then I feel quite cheerful again.
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FiDafydd.
Whether he was any good in this role is not the issue... although we've got good evidence that either he or the AWC itself was very inadequate in the few meetings that have been held.
The issue is that he was not impartial in a role that demands exactly that in order to uphold the quickly fading democracy of this Country.
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Cayo Evans didn't blow himself up...
Any more rubbish to share with us snout?
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It is dissapointing for Sir Emyr Jones Parry to shurg off his responsibilities.
FiDafydd, I have never believed that the British Nationalists have the best interest in mind for Wales. They would rather the Welsh vote be swamped by 406 others. There's no equality there.
At any rate, you are right, they do represent a small segment of the population anyway. I am fully confident that Plaid will gain more seats in the next election, at the expense of Labour.
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re: 14
ye gods! "swamped by 406..." should have read 606! lol.
I wish there was an edit feature to correct errors to a post in here.
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Re 10
Cayo Evans died in 1995, I believe. I do not know whether this was before or after his daughter was, sadly, paralysed after an accident.
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Thank you 13 as I posed a question which has been answered. He was however prosecuted and sent to jail for explosive offences so my "knowledge"was in the right area. Still think he'll get a statue eventually,particularly if PC gets their way and we become an independant country.He's got a pub in Cardiff named after him so thats the next best thing in this sad little piece of the world.
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Why not Lord Ivor Richards for the post.
Oh! silly me, he has already done the job and got all the right answers on what to do but it was kicked into touch because it wasn't liked.
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To repeat what I've said, more than once, on previous occasions, I don't think there will be a referendum on legislative powers. This will be regardless of the findings of the AWC. Without some semblance of unanimity among the political parties, the chance of a successful Yes vote would be slim. Labour will be split on the issue, without a doubt. Its MPs from Wales will be in the vanguard when it comes to wrecking it, no doubt with Touhig in the lead, if Murphy is officially silenced by virtue of his office.
There are words to describe individuals who put their own self-interest before that of the people and nation they represent, but the BBC would not allow me to write them here.
The AWC has been a shambles so far, by all accounts. 'Sir' EJP must take some responsibility for that. I can't follow the logic that a diplomat is best suited to lead such a body, as he is a spokesperson and negotiator for the government he represents. This is not an issue for negotiation but one of assessment of public opinion. It is something of which diplomats have little experience. They actually rarely meet the public in a professional sense.
I think EJP however is wise enough to have seen the writing on the wall, that his endeavours are really a waste of time. Neither Labour nor Plaid will wish to participate in a referendum campaign, which could (1) be lost and (2) that Labour could be seen as a divided party. There is nothing to be gained by holding one.
That of course leaves Wales and its population with a toothless Assembly, and the stupidly named WAG... why on earth not call it the 'Government of Wales'?
Well, clearly because that's exactly what it is NOT. How can it be called a government when it has no power to legislate, or one which has to ask another for permission to do so, each and every time? That's plain silly or daft. These are the words I reserve for Hain and his selfish colleagues at Westminster who concocted it. They have done Wales down, and at heart they know it. In any case, I think Labour is doomed UK-wide, for it has failed really big-time under Blair and Brown.
Labour will, eventually, pay the political price in Wales for their selfish and short-sighted stupidity. How can I say that? Because Wales will suffer their mistakes for a decade or more, and in very tangible ways, through higher unemployment, poorer public services, and lack of investment. Labour's record on Wales has been abysmal.. even worse than that of the Tories (and believe me, it takes something for me to admit that).
Will anyone be willing to take on the poison chalice of the AWC? That remains to be seen. The wisdom of whoever does so must truly be in question. If Hywel Ceri Jones has the sense I credit him with, he won't touch it with a barge pole.
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William Edward Julian Cayo-Evans (22 April 1937–28 March 1995), was a Welsh political activist.[1][2]
Born at 'Glandenys', Silian, near Lampeter, where he also died, Cayo-Evans was educated at Millfield. In 1955, he was called up for National Service, serving with the Royal Welsh Borderers[2] and saw active service, fighting Communist guerrillas in Malaya.[3] On his return, he attended the Royal Agricultural College in Cirencester, before returning to Lampeter to breed palomino and appaloosa horses on his stud farm.[2]
Cayo married Gillianne Mary Davies in 1965. They had three children and divorced in 1975.
Political Activism
Best known as a leader of the Free Wales Army, Cayo-Evans seems to have become radicalised during the early 1960s, especially during the building of the Tryweryn resevoir.[1] He was active in the FWA during the 1960s and along with two other members of the FWA, Dennis Coslett and Gethyn Ap Iestyn, was convicted of conspiracy to cause explosions and other public order offences following a 53 day trial in 1969. He was subsequently sentenced to fifteen months imprisonment[4] (n.b. some sources suggest thirteen months).
Sources:
* 1 a b Lyn Ebenezer. "Cayo Evans" (in Welsh). BBC Cymru.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/cymru/deorllewin/enwogion/adarbrith/pages/cayo_evans.shtml.
* 2. a b c Tony Heath (31 May 1995). "Obituary: Julian Cayo Evans". The Independent.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_/ai_n13974571.
* 3 "Julian Cayo Evans". Welsh Heroes.
http://www.100welshheroes.com/en/biography/cayoevans.
* 4 "Julian Cayo Evans". BBC Wales. 28 December 2006.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/mid/sites/lampeter/pages/halloffame_cayo.shtml.
* 5 Geoffrey Gibbs (6 July 2000). "Tory anger over Welsh pub name". The Guardian.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,340091,00.html.
The events surrounding the Tryweryn resevoir which led to Cayo-Evans' activism:
In 1956, a private bill sponsored by Liverpool City Council was brought before the UK parliament to develop a water reservoir from the Tryweryn Valley, in Meirionydd in Gwynedd. The development would include the flooding of Capel Celyn (Holly Chapel), a Welsh speaking community of historic significance. Despite universal and bi-partisan objections by Welsh politicians (thirty five out of thirty six Welsh MPs opposed the bill, and one abstained) the bill was passed in 1957.
Evans joined Dr Tudor Jones and Capel Celyn farmer David Roberts, aged 65, at the Liverpool Town Hall to protest, and had to be forcibly ejected by police.[42]
The building of the reservoir was instrumental in an increase in support for Plaid Cymru during the late 1950s.[42] Almost unanimous Welsh political opposition had failed to stop approval of the scheme, a fact that seemed to underline Plaid Cymru's argument that the Welsh national community was powerless.[43] At the subsequent General Election the party's support increased from 3.1% to 5.2%.
Plaque recording the loss of a Quaker meeting placeOf perhaps greater significance, however, was the impetus the episode gave to Welsh devolution. The Council of Wales recommended the creation of a Welsh Office (Swyddfa Gymreig) and Secretary of State for Wales early in 1957, a time when the governance of Wales on a national level was so demonstrably lacking in many people's eyes.[44]
The flooding of Capel Celyn also sharpened debate within Plaid Cymru about the use of direct action. While the party emphasised its constitutional approach to stopping the development, it also sympathised with the actions of two party members (who of their own accord) attempted to sabotage the power supply at the site of the Tryweryn dam in 1962.[44]
In October 1965 the Llyn Celyn reservoir opened to a sizeable Plaid Cymru organised demonstration. During the opening ceremonies, "posters reading ‘Hands Off Wales’ were displayed and pieces of rock where thrown at Liverpool’s Lord Mayor and Chief Constable".[42]
In 2005, the Liverpool City Council formally apologised for the flooding.[42]
Sources:
* 42 a b c d Coslett, Paul (2005-10-19). "Flooding Apology". Where I Live - Liverpool. bbc.co.uk.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/liverpool/content/articles/2005/10/17/feature_welsh_reservoir_feature.shtml. Retrieved on 2008-08-17.
"A motion passed by the council on Wednesday 19th October reads, "We realise the hurt of forty years ago when the Tryweryn Valley was transformed into a reservoir to help meet the water needs of Liverpool. For any insensitivity by our predecessor council at that time, we apologise and hope that the historic and sound relationship between Liverpool and Wales can be completely restored.""
* 43 John Davies, A History of Wales, Penguin, 1994, ISBN 0-14-014581-8
* 44 a b Butt-Phillip, A, The Welsh Question, (1975), University of Wales Press
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#17
"He was however prosecuted and sent to jail for explosive offences.."
For your information:
Evans was jailed in 1969 for conspiracy to cause explosions, and a number of public order offences. He was sentenced to fifteen months but was not convicted of any further offences after his release. Some consider that the prosecutions had political overtones. It would be difficult to substantiate such claims but it was a sensitive time in Welsh politics and there is evidence that the government was deeply concerned at the growth of national sentiment in Wales. Evans died in 1995.
Your comment, "...who fortunately blew himself up?" I think is in bad taste.
The two individuals killed by their own explosive device prior to the investiture in 1969, had no connection with the FWA.
Although I share Evans' wish to see a Welsh Republic become a reality, I do not condone breaking the law in any way, and certainly not attempts to harm anyone or their property.
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Thank you 20 and 21 for providing information on Cayo-Evans. I did go to Wik..and found full history. In Cardiffian post the name Cayo-Evans rang a bell and hence my question in later post. Clearly he did not like status quo but not really the person to name a pub after??. Clearly he did'nt blow himself up but surely the sentiment that bombers blowing themselves up is better than them blowing up innocent men,women and children?. This issue ie Dams/Water seems to go to the heart of the continual gripe with some welsh people about its role within the UK family. In a small Island there is bound to be conflicting interests between rural/city needs but we have to combine making the best of it as seperately,particularly Wales with its location/weather/history etc we have no real future. Theres no doubt the welsh people do have in general some sort of "victim" psychology and unfortunately its driving us to division/suspicion/unhappiness and looking at these posts there is no coming together on major issues. If PC were to renounce the ideas of seperation and independance then they might have long term relevance,however as long as they stay as they are then they deserve everything they get from their long term enemies,particularly in welsh labour party.
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Good lord! there's about 10 posts on Cayo-evans and his shady past here. I wished I'd never mentioned him now... it was only as a joke to give ideas of someone who continue the great impartial tradition of the AWC chair.
Anybody else got some suggestions
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So it seems the Nationalistas on here, unwilling to engage on germane issues for the future of Wales, instead fall back on giving Welsh people a bad name by copying and pasting acres of text on some Cayo Evans who is associated with the Free Wales Army, and other questionable activities.
Was he a member of Plaid Cymru?
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Cardiffian 2008
Glad to see you have humour, you weren't to pleased at my humour on the 23rd January postings. Your statement is more hurtful I would think, as Caio Evans has died and his family are still very much around.
What is it they say' if you can't take it don't give it'!!!
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What really bothers me is the insularity most of you suffer from. You're so focussed on [dare I say obsessed with?] your own little prejudices, and your hate or love of your own land, you can't see how important it is for the Balkans that Bosnia gets a high calibre High Representative. If Emyr Jones Parry is as hapless as some of you suggest, then God/Allah better start working overtime on conflict prevention. Because that lovely but sadly divided land is in a bad way and needs a HR with real vision, able to give firm and fair leadership. Come to think of it, a bit of that wouldn't go astray in Wales either, even if the need is less urgent.
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According to the very earnest young lady reporter on am/pm apparently Sir ... can look after Bosnia and the pesky welsh so perhaps were all getting over exited. If he's gone then I would suggest either LORD Kinnock or LADY Kinnock and in particular the latter as she speaks welsh or perhaps they could be co-chairpersons. They would probably need driver as wales is very small beer to such world travellers and they might get lost!!.
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If Sir Emyr Jones Parry goes then I’m sure that he will be replaced by another eminently qualified Welsh man or woman. His possible calling to Bosnia shows how highly he is respected in diplomatic circles. Although the British nationalist fanatics on this board, in typical extreme right wing fashion, see him as no more than a stooge of the Assembly and incapable of leading the Convention looking into the reform of the Assembly for the heinous crime that he believes in the existence of that very institution. Ironically, the fanatics who post on here probably hate the EU and all it stands for – nations and different people getting on with each in harmony regardless of language, race or nationality - with as much passion as the democratically elected Assembly.
But if he leaves he’ll probably be happy to be rid racists, fanatics and extremists of the BNP (and their fellow travellers who contribute to this site), UKIP and True Wales fanatics who (if the blowhard who leads the True Wales cabal is anything to go by – who like a school child walked out in a huff when his irrelevant rantings were ignored) appear to be unable to address the simple issue of whether the people of Wales should be responsible for education, health, transport, etc policy in Wales and instead bang on with the crazed rantings about Welsh independence and the Welsh language being rammed down people’s throats.
Those groups that have so far voiced their opposition to more powers for the Assembly and most of the above posters are adequately summed up by Churchill’s quote “A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject”.
From a real Cardiffian - billingual, open minded and internationalist.
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The Balkans will be no problem compared to some of the prejudices on display here.
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Message 28....
?A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject?.
I suppose the Churchillian quote is not applicable to the Nats and language nuts then?
Along with similar type quotes, they only apply to non nationalists and monolinguals from Cardiff, and the rest on the non bilingual Wales, or have I got that wrong?
Those bilinguals from Cardiff, and elsewhere in Wales, are just as set in their fanaticism, as are those who oppose.
However, their opposition has far more rationality than just saying they want to take Wales down a route leading to certain disaster.
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It's now clear that he intends to do both jobs. As someone once said 'You shouldn't be in the circus if you can't ride two horses'. According to the New York Herald the news has brought dancing crowds on to the streets of both Sarajevo and Swansea. It's been a shambles so far. Just can't wait when the Commision's staff sent up translation facilities in Serbo Croat in some part of Wales. What did Groucho Marx say 'Hail Hail Freedonia land of the Free'
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Obviously changing the chair of the convention part way through its work is not desirable, however Bosnia is in more need. Clearly Sir Emyr Jones Parry is highly regarded and it will be our loss.
What people like True Wales (which is a real odd ball group) seem obsessed with is that they think that the convention is a propaganda organisation. This is far from the truth. Its remit is to educate and take the temperature, to see if the time is right to hold a referendum under the Government of Wales Act. The Government of Wales Act authorises a referendum on the transfer in one go of some limited legislative power that can come to the National Assembly in dribs and drabs otherwise via the LCO procedure. Some here have suggested that the referendum should be multi optional, including asking for the abolition of the National Assembly (something supported by only two political parties active in Wales, The BNP and UKIP). This would be impossible within the confines of this act. If people want a multi optional referendum they had better start lobbying Parliament for a new Referendum Act - and I can tell you now that there is no room in the time table for this - if you disagree take it up with your MP.
What discussions here and elsewhere have exposed is that there is a real gulf in understanding what is on offer. Of course some of that is deliberate on the part of people like True Wales that see any devolution as leading inevitably and by stealth to the independence of Wales. This is as far from the truth as you can get. Even relatively knowledgeable commentators on here were unaware of the difference between the government of Wales (the Welsh Assembly Government) and the legislature of Wales (the National Assembly for Wales). Again there is some political leverage to gain in promoting ignorance - as dissatisfaction with the administration can be blamed on the legislature. We have had comments the the National Assembly is undemocratic as 1/3 of its members are selected by party and the public have no influence on who is elected. This again is untrue. If the public don't want individuals to be elected they can vote for another party. The only difference between the party lists in the regions is that there are several people on them from each party and from independents, while the constituencies have party lists of one individual. No real difference.
The fact that the Welsh Media is so weak makes it very difficult to educate people in how the institutions work. Unless the people are educated they can't be expected to make informed decisions. That is the purpose of the convention. Not to promote any one option but to let people know what is on offer and how this would change what we have now.
Again there are those who see any information as propaganda. Given the composition of the convention is drawn from a representative group of people, who have a variety of opinions (again not as some claim, drawn from one side of the argument) the chances that this body could be a yes campaign is clearly wrong. Again people know this but there is a political value in saying otherwise.
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Unfortunately it is Lyn Thomas who doesn't understand how the list system works. If you look at South Wales West for example the majority of votes cast for list candidates are cast for the Labour party list. All of these votes are wasted because Labour wins every seat in the first past the post constituencies which make up the artificial former European constituency which tthe Assembly uses for list purposes. If the Conservatives for example won Bridgend then Alun Cairns would cease to be an AM if the Liberal Democrats were successful in Swansea East Peter Black would say goodbye to the Assembly. Ironically the Labour Party would see its top two candidates on the list probably become AMs. Glyn Davies is no longer an AM simply because the Conservatives won Prescelli and Carmarthen West. Alun Davies is an AM because Labour lost seats such as Llanelli to Plaid. It is an anti democratic system which no one can defend. It was introduced by Ron Davies because he knew that the Labour Party would never support STV and he assumed on the basis of UK election results in the past that Labour would always have a majority because it would win most of the FPTP seats. How can anyone take Bethan Jenkins seriously when she didn't even top the poll of Plaid members in South Wales West gaining just 14 votes and I assume that one of those was her own!
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Message 32...
Insolence will get you no awards.
True Wales is not as odd ball as you may think.
I for one admit to being of such a character, but the purpose behind True Wales is to counter the verty thing you have mentined in your second paragraph.
To say 'educate' is a misnomer, the word you obviously could not find is INDOCTRINATE, and 'finding the temperature', is another way of saying...
... 'looking for the opportune moment to advise a referendum be called, that potentially will come in as beneficial to the present set up in Cardiff Bay'....
We are not all as stupid as some would believe us to be.
There is a sixth sense that politically astute people all seem to have, it's called sussing out a flim flam.
And the flim flam of the AWC has been well and truly sussed.
By not only True Wales, either.
Not all who appear on this blog are members, but they all seem to sing from the same hymn sheet, don't you agree?
Funny that!
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Lyn at 32
Just to be clear I am not a member of any political party - have no truck with the BNP or any extreme political organisations.
I am not a member of True Wales, they can't even bother to update their Web site.
While Welsh I am also British, and loyal to Britain, and the rights and freedoms that within the last 15 years used to be the core of our traditions and Constitution.
Thus by definition I am against ceding of soverign powers to Europe.
Lets be clear about Sir Emyr Jones Parry - he is a diplomat - a diplomat is a person skilled in tact and negotiation, but who's primary role is to represent the interests of the Government or persons who hires him.
You say;
[Clearly Sir Emyr Jones Parry is highly regarded and it will be our loss.]
agreed and it will certainly be Plaids loss!
Whatever the public statements about the function of the AWC, it is clear, as you point out its main function is education (they are certainly not listening) - in this case the aim is to educate people what Plaid and its servants Labour, want them to believe about devolution and the need for more powers.
Your comment;
[commentators on here were unaware of the difference between the government of Wales (the Welsh Assembly Government) and the legislature of Wales (the National Assembly for Wales).]
is effectively nonsense - I'm sure most know that the Welsh Assembly Government is the executive body of the National Assembly - for practical purposes in debating the issue of the Assembly powers, it is rarely necessary to differentiate.
You also say;
[We have had comments the the National Assembly is undemocratic as 1/3 of its members are selected by party and the public have no influence on who is elected]
which twists the argument, - these people have no allegiance to a constituancy, only to a national party.
I will agree that;
[The fact that the Welsh Media is so weak makes it very difficult to educate people in how the institutions work.]
But must point out that the BBC in particular has a predominance of Welsh speakers in its upper management and among its reporters, significantly out of balance with the ratio in the population it serves.
This gives rise to accusations and worries that it is biased, much of its political reporting supports this view.
In main news programmes there is little reporting of activity in the Senedd. Probably because what goes on is normally so poor, inept, and mainly irrelevant to the needs of Welsh people, its embarrassing.
The sales figures for Welsh newspapers featuring Assembly news and Nationalist party propoganda tell there own story.
Its not education the people of Wales need,
In those terms education is a euphemism for propoganda.
What is needed is proper investigative unbiased reporting - which unfortunately would show these Institutions do not work, and the failure is nothing to do with not having enough powers - its all about inappropriate structures and incompetent incumbents.
Facts and information regarding the actions and results of the Assemblies work is difficult to obtain - the whole thing is clouded in misinformation and complexity.
The Assemblies web site is a masterpiece of blind alley's and obscure keywords.
Try getting budgetary information
Your comment;
[This would be impossible within the confines of this act. If people want a multi optional referendum they had better start lobbying Parliament for a new Referendum Act ]
Is of course correct but the Assembly can and should rephrase the question.
As currently posed, any answer will mean more of the same - it is in fact a non question.
I agree with you that;
[any devolution as leading inevitably and by stealth to the independence of Wales.]
Devolution does not need to lead to full independence (and I believe we need devolution) - but you are being less than honest if you try to suggest that a yes vote in the proposed referendum is not a step towards that aspiration, and that is why it is worded as it is and why there is some much effort to mislead the Welsh people via the AWC
However the Welsh people can take heart - is increasingly likely that the next UK government will be Conservative - and there is hope that the fundamental question will be posed - we will then freed from the current political machination and lies, and be allowed a proper democratic voice.
Bet that gives you nightmares;)
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I know perfectly well how the list system works, I don't like it because it doesn't let you prioritise members within in the list, its a closed list system. My preferred method is STV, which gives the greatest choice and control to the electorate. This is the preferred option of Plaid and the Lib Dems. My point remains - the constituency vote is a vote between a list of one and the regional list is a list of 4 or more. For all its faults the current additional member system is more democratic than the first past the post system which grossly over represents one party at the moment and is unlikely to change - despite being recommended by the Richard Commission, which was independent.
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West Wales I take issue with your dismissive attitude towards True Wales.
As you will know I have been a keen supporter of keeping the Union together like many others who blog here. Following recent comments by Mapex I took the time out to research TW
Their Website is up to date www.truewales.org.uk
In fact the site is very informative, I have noticed that WAG has now dropped the idea of a welsh gong system - TW have been Highlighting this issue on their site. Also if you take the time to properly look into them they really are ordinary people who have come together because, they like you believe Wales is better off being part of the UK .
They have turned up at the Yes campaign events to give a different alternative to what is being forced on us.
They have leafleted across Wales (paid for out of their own pockets) been demonised by the Nationalist media and political parties and yet still continue to put up with the presonal abuse because they unlike many who have the same views decided to do something about it,
AWC £2.5 million to secure a yes vote
TW - peoples free time and own money to put up a fight against the establishment.
I sound like a member - you would be right I joined last week and went to my first meeting on Tuesday.
I will keep you all posted
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There are some interesting point of view concerning True Wales on Alwyn ap Huw's blogspot blog, "Miserable Old Fart". He begins with this sentence:
"There is a sweet irony in the fact that a movement calling itself True Wales should launch its campaign by making a string of untruthful claims!"
plus ca change! Sounds familiar to anybody who's been exposed to their members posts on this blog.
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Bostoniwr,
"Alwyn ap Huw" is unlikely to write anything other than he has in your quote, he with others have established counter argument to the "No" position, he has been vociferous in his support for additional powers. Some even created a very similar web site to confuse, a very typical Nationalist technique when argument is weak.
Yet he has recently fallen out of love with Plaid Cymru.
You could be he, in different clothes.
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True Wales have started by running a scare campaign. They say the All Wales Convention is a yes campaign, this is untrue. They quote the cost of it and this is also untrue. They say that a Welsh Honours system is a step towards independence, this is untrue - Butetown has an annual award to those that have contributed to the community but I don't see (and neither does anyone else) that as a step to it declaring UDI. They suggest that the current modest proposals for extending the legislative powers of the National Assembly will lead to independence... this is untrue. Independence will only happen when the people vote on that specific question in a referendum. In short True Wales is an organisation committed to spreading untruths, creating uncertainty and doubt with a large dose of fear. Scaremongering is their only weapon. They are not engaging in any real debate.
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Message 38....
What is significant is, not that True Wales is as charged, but that Alwyn ap Huw, does not expand on his charge that True Wales has published lies.
Maybe Bostonian,otherwise known as BOSSY BOOTS, could do it for him, and lay out on this blog, just what lies True Wales has supposedly told.
I would think that if any lies have been told it is by....
a: Alwyn ap Huw.
b: Plaid Cymru.
c: The Cardiff Bay mob, and
d: quite a few who frequent these blogs with their nationalist agenda's.
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Theres no doubt that the devolution (as in Bay) sceptics have gotton completely under the skins of the Nats/Welsh language fanatics and hence the shower of abuse on persons of a sceptical opinion. The devolution of power to local units of accountability is vital in ensuring good governance/accountability to public who actually work and pay taxes and generally contribute to the wider society. There are no postershere talking about getting rid of local government but there are inherent flaws in Assembly and in my humble opinion the whole concept of Wales as a governmental body doesnt need fit the bill. Howls of anguish from nats no doubt but do you think TESCO/BP etc think of wales as a seperate economic unit??.The answer is they dont as were too fragmented geographically with people all in the wrong place. The nats might not like it but its a lot easier getting from south wales to bristol/London than Wrexham/Bangor and thats the rational that must used when allocating scarce and their going to get a lot scarcer public funds. I have noticed that BBC Wales (outrider for nationalism) now uses BORDER as between England/Wales when ever the two are mentioned as if their talking about Canada/USA. I referred many months ago to the OWG being part of the talibanisation of wales and nothing is changing my mind. Were too small and insignificant to have seperate agendas from england and when conservatives gain power in near future their proper devolution of power to parents in running of schools will not apply to Wales to the detriment of the education of our children. With the major cuts in public expenditure coming to wales in next 10 years and our masters fervent adherance to welsh language growth/other pet projects the amount thats going to be left for basic services like street cleaning/lighting etc will be further reduced and third world here we come.
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Lyn Thomas - I realise that it is uncomfortable for the nationalists, the political elite and their beneficiaries, to comprehend that the views of True Wales are representative of a great number of people across Wales. Just because those views are different to yours does not make them liars, scaremongers, Welsh haters or a 'strange bunch, spreading black propaganda' (as recently labelled by a senior Plaid Cymru politician).
Anyone who has experienced the format of AWC meetings, particularly the propagandist video (now on their website) will testify that it is certainly not carrying out an impartial exercise. For details of the committed spend on the All-Wales Convention refer to the Assembly website at:
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
Furthermore, it has been proved that Wales is already very well represented in the UK honours list.
why would Wales need its own honours system that would put further unnecessary costs on to the taxpayer, other than to distance ourselves further from Great Britain?
The independence argument is relevant to this debate - the nationalists are now openly stating their aim of an independent Wales. They will not want to stop at further law-making powers.
You have to get used to the idea that only 25% of the people of Wales voted for a National Assembly. They have not been asked whether they want a Welsh Government, or indeed been allowed the opportunity to vote on the specifics of the 2006 Act. We deserve a referendum, that will make clear whether the Welsh people want to keep the status quo, or to rush into the full implementation of the Government of Wales Act 2006. We deserve that referendum now, and although it is difficult to get through the networking treacle that pervades all spheres of Welsh life, including the media, we deserve the courtesy of hearing an alternative view to that expounded by Assembly cohorts.
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Well, none of this will make any difference to the agenda of Wales First and the majority who fully support lawmaking powers. Leaflets have now been produced both by WF and Tomorrow's Wales and are in the process of distribution. A public meeting is sketched in for the Swansea area.
A commitment has been made to a referendum by 2011 and we will work to ensure that it is honoured.
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re: 38 Bostoniwr
Thanks for letting me know of Alwyn ap Huw's blogsite. Ill read up on more of his blogs within the coming days. I am refreshed to see other blogers.
I was particularly interested at Alwyn's perspective that devolutionists dont need to suport the All Wales Convention either.
Alwyn ap Huw writes
"I would prefer that the committee be abolished. I can't see the point of its existence.
The whole point of the committee is just pointless. Its job is to advise the Assembly about whether or when a referendum should be held on further powers for the Assembly - a political decision!
Don't we elect and pay politicians to make political decisions? "
This in a nut shell is it. Most AMs support further authority for the Assembly
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message 45....
I agree. let it be a straight ballot box fight, with no third set of gloves in the ring.
Referee's do not engage the combatants, nor, opt to find for one against the other.
So away with this AWC, and on to the referendum, as soon as possible.
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I'd be keeping a close eye on that Panasonic factory if I were you...
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/markets/japan/article5723942.ece
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Whether you agree with True Wales' point of view or not one thing (personally I think I could stomach further powers if I didnt have serious concerns they would be exploited by a bunch of insular language crazed nats) However, surely everyone would have to admit that they bring in an important choice to the people of Wales. They are upholding what little bit of democracy is left in Wales.
I think that the nats should show some respect to that fact and one thing is for sure, even if I was on the other side of the fence, I'd want to win a fair referendum where the people of Wales have had both options put before them. The thought of living in a country where they hadnt is truely horrifying!
I just dont understand why when people like Elfyn Lloyd (incidentally it scares the life out of me that this spoilt, child-like man has any power) go on tv and writes off the very existence of true wales as if its unlawful, the interviewer doesnt just turn around and say "do you wish to deny the people of Wales all of the information to make a decision on their future"
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So nomorepowers you are a member of True Wales, a group which you say fight against the “establishment”, although its leader is a councilor in a South Wales valleys constituency – you can’t get more establishment than that in Wales - and its most well known supporter is the right-wing David Davies MP from the Conservative and Unionist Party (so extreme he is also a member of the Better Off Out (BOO) campaign run by The Freedom Association to call for the UK's withdrawal from the nasty European Union).
Lets look at a snapshot of your posts on this website while keeping in mind the True Wales Mission Statement (on their English only website) that “there are many versions of 'Welshness', all to be respected and celebrated. We believe in equality and fairness for all citizens, regardless of linguistic preference….”
• the Assembly is “social engineering”;
• “More and more English taxpayers are starting to ask the question........ why should they carry on subsidising the ungrateful Welsh”;
• “Wales will soon become a third world country”;
• Under the Welsh Assembly “bilingualism is more important than putting food on the table for their families”;
• “The Welsh Language should be paid from the taxes of the people who feel it is a priority for them. Same for S4C”
• The Welsh Language LCO is “aimed at forcing business out of Wales”.
I think any reasonable person would agree that together these views are rather extreme and certainly don’t tally with the True Wales Mission Statement. But perhaps the True Wales Mission Statement is just spin and a smoke screen for their real views?
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You are absolutely right, Cardiffian2008. The preservation of our democracy is paramount. The very existence of True Wales has provided a platform for debate about the devolution process.
Do we want further devolved powers at any cost, or do do we want all the Welsh people to have a say in the matter. Challenging the political establishment, and by that I mean all the other 'yes' campaigners that have been busy networking during the last ten years, can only be healthy for the nation.
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I wonder why the BBC site seemingly translates some quote marks into question marks.
Not to sideline this blog but its annoying.
@Harri on 49: Spot on!
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BBCs Education websit today.
More and more state schoolchildren in the UK are being taught in Welsh, Gaelic and Irish, the BBC has learned.
The number of Northern Ireland children learning Irish grew from just 484 in 1992 to 3285 in 2008.
In Wales, 20% of schoolchildren are now being taught entirely in the Welsh language - up from 16% in the 1990s.
Some experts believe that bilingual children are at an advantage at school, because learning two languages boosts their ability to learn.
Welsh schoolchildren are still far more likely to learn their native language than those in Scotland or Northern Ireland - however, the statistics suggest Gaelic and Irish are growing in popularity.
In 1997 just 112 Scottish pupils learned Gaelic. In 2007, 2,601 students were learning it, either in an exclusively Gaelic school, or in a bi-lingual one.
Identity
Devolution has meant profound educational changes, says the BBC's Colette Hume, in Northern Ireland, as a demand for speakers of these languages grows.
It seems having two languages in the brain stimulates it
Professor David Reynolds, University of Plymouth
And she said that the growth in demand for this type of education may reflect a growing sense of identity and confidence in the nations of the UK.
She visited a tiny Irish-medium school in Northern Ireland which opened last year with just 12 pupils, but now has 28.
In Scotland, the country's first Gaelic-medium secondary school opened in Glasgow in 2006.
The BBC launched a Gaelic channel, BBC Alba, in September last year, which promotes the Gaelic language, while hoping to appeal to audiences across Scotland.
The latest figures from the Welsh Assembly Government show that 40,756 secondary schoolchildren out of a total of almost 207,000 are being taught in "Welsh medium schools" - where most or all subjects are taught in Welsh.
David Reynolds, a professor of education at Plymouth University, said learning Welsh had "really taken off" and that any reservations about learning the local language seemed to have disappeared.
"In Wales, the evidence is that 40% of children are fluent in Welsh, and 20% of their parents.
"In terms of use, you are able to sell your language in a way you couldn't 20 years ago, and it is of direct use to you because of burgeoning employment in the devolved states."
Globalisation
Professor Colin Baker from the University of Bangor is an expert in bilingual education, and says bilingual children have an advantage in terms of intelligence.
Some parents want their children to identify strongly with their nation
"They actually have a higher IQ," he said.
"It seems having two languages in the brain stimulates it, adds extra associations into the brain and deepens thinking."
Professor Reynolds identifies a further reason why this trend towards learning a local language appears to have taken hold.
He said that in an increasingly globalised world, people are more keen to keep sight of their identity, and one way of achieving this is through learning your local language.
"Knowledge of your own local area gives you identity and roots, I think," he said.
"If you look at why it might be happening, I think it's a desire to root children, and also adults, in a local experience."
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message 49, ....
Nowhere near as extreme as the propoganda pumped out by the Assembly/WAG and it's sycophant supporters.
Quite mild, in realistic terms.
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Alfsplace Message 53:
Thanks for bringing in an irrelevant cut and paste about the Welsh language on a thread where has not yet been mentioned.
It shows very clearly that the language and furtherpowers/independence are very much sharing the same bed in your eyes! Shall I start the lessons now or shall I just wait until your lunatic Nationalists at the WAG force me after they've got their further powers.
It reminds me of the song
"I believe that children are the future..."
except your second line would be "indoctrine them well and they're sure to always vote yes"
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message 52.....
Yet more dogmatic 'opinion' from an academic with an axe to grind.
40% of schoolchildren in Wales are now 'fluent?'
Oh! yeah! I need actual proof of that figure, I also challenge him on 20% of adults are truly 'fluent'.
I don't go on the simple say so of someone with an agenda.
I believe neither figure.
As someone in the past stated,
... " There are lies, damned lies, and statistics"...
... never a truer word spoken.
I opt for the latter in regards the numbers who can speak the language to a level of fluency, especially amongst the younger element.
Anyway, if the learning of a second language is so mind expanding, why opt for a language with no international relevance,
or does the professor think there will be a serious take up of it, to such an extent that the 'world' will take it up also, in preference to Franch, German, Chinese, Japanese, or any one of the langauges spoken across the globe, whose fluents are counted in millions, not a few measly couple of hundred thousands,.... if that even.
We are going to regret all this emphasis on 'local' languages. Over and above the cost to the taxpayers.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Cardiffian 2008.
Well you've done it again it's Elfyn 'Llwyd' not 'Lloyd', you never learn (Welsh I mean). He he.
Just thought I would use the opprtunity to annoy you.
Seeing as you've found humour in your self, do you like my humour this time.
See 23,25
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Cardiffian 2008
Re54.. "indoctrine them well and they are sure to always vote yes".
Is that what is meant when young people say I am going to vote Labour because my Father and Grandfather voted for them.
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alfsplace1986, at #52
"In Wales, the evidence is that 40% of children are fluent in Welsh, and 20% of their parents.
The above, if the 40 percent is correct, should read 8 percent of parents, 20 percent of 40 percent, this would equate to the Office for National Statistics figures.
What David Reynolds doesn't quantify is the percentage of children that remain fluent in Welsh 5 years after leaving school, neither is "fluent" quantified.
His reported statement, .....
"It seems having two languages in the brain stimulates it, adds extra associations into the brain and deepens thinking."
..... I am sure will perplex those monoglot thinkers throughout the world, might they search for their philosophical failings?
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When we start talking about democracy and the right to express a view that is not consistent with that of the nationalists, the political establishment and their hangers-on, isn't strange how the contributors to this blog change the subject?
I'm waiting for an answer - should we be granted an open and honest debate about our constitutional future, or should we allow only one side (ie. those that currently hold the reins of power and have greatest influence on the media, business and the voluntary sector) to be heard?
Referendum now - let the people speak.
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Alfsplace:
I just dont get it... if you havent got a good comeback then why bother posting at all?
err your humour? what pointing out I got someones name wrong... how is that amusing. Maybe for you.
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Stonemason
59
I don't think it matters whether it is 20% or 8% of parents there are two ways of interpreting it.
The important figure is that 40% of children are fluent on leaving school.
The same could be said with your argument 5 years down the line for PE or Religious Education it doesn't mean they are going to follow those subjects after they leave, but the knowledge is within them, always to be used when ever it may be needed.
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legendaryavocet, your #60.
"..... should we be granted an open and honest debate about our constitutional future ....."
In the wind my friend, in the wind.
The "Smoke and Mirrors" emanating from the Nationalist camps is designed to undermine debate. PC know that they bring nothing to the party except 1950s Socialism, politics that appeal to the dispossessed, they have over the years created a following composed of people that are convinced that they have been subjected to 800 years of tyranny, illusions of oppression.
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Cardiffian
My humour was to 52 not 53 on changing the subject and my referal to 23 and 25.
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alfsplace1986
rhetorical question .....
I take your point with certain subjects such as PE and RE, am I to assume you associate Welsh as a similar non-core subject, available if needed in the future.
Subjects which are core skills such as mathematics will be in use throughout adulthood. Should we be placing greater emphasis in the teaching of such subjects to all the children of Wales equally. I am not suggesting any particular subject as a core skill.
I have a nagging suspicion that the way education is structured in Wales, the two mediums, it is unfair to children in each of the medium schools, all children suffer the consequence of language segregation which continues outside the school gates.
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I have just realised how destructive to ones character blogging is. It can make you behave in a way you would not normaly behave, it can be soul destroying.
I appologise to everyone for any hurt I may have caused. I can assure you I would not behave this way in my non blogging life it just takes over.
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#66 alfsplace1986 wrote:
"... how destructive to ones character blogging is. It can make you behave in a way you would not normaly behave, it can be soul destroying."
Don't worry, the most people on here have rhinoceros skins, and brains to match.
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message 67....
Now let me get this right...
Rhino skins, Yes?
Brains of Rhino's, Yes?
Most on here have those attributes, Yes?
But you are not in that
class of blogger, No? ....YES!!
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brynt41 at #67 .....
continues to assault the virtual population of Betsan's blog, as he puts it "..... most people on here have rhinoceros skins, and brains to match", the same Cybernat rhetoric.
on behalf of "everyone else" .....
..... thanks for that .....
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alfsplace1986 at 66
Yes know what you mean - but I don't think its blogging - I think its all part of the "them and us" culture being encouraged to stop people considering opposing views and arguments.
Realised I was doing it some time ago, have tried to take note of what people are saying, and tried to moderate my comments, attack the idea not the person approach.
Difficult when dealing with personal attacks or prejudiced opinions set out as fact.
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OK - now the last few weeks of fun are behind us it might be worth considering the purpose of more powers.
The theme that I'd like to be screamed from the rooftops is:
"A Parliament for Prosperity" (Tm Dewi)
What say you?
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Dewi_H,
I have asked the following question many times .....
"are the current powers being fully exploited for the people of Wales".
I believe there have been successes, there is no doubt of that, but what mileage is left in the current powers, how much more can be done, and in the doing, can the government be given the time to mature.
There is also the question that no one will address, how do additional powers fit with Westminster and the English question, because unless the aim is separation it needs answering.
I think these questions remain unanswered, not because answers don't exist, but the comfort blanket is removed and peoples expectations are delayed. There is something else that is conspicuously missing from discussions, changes that the current voters will vote for are set to effect future generations, this is significant.
"A Parliament for prosperity" for future generations, optimistically yes.
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Stonemason,
Why should people in Wales be overly concerned with an "English question"?
Why not let the English sort out their own questions, and let Wales sort out hers?
In any case (more immediately relevant to the current LCO) - giving Wales legislative power over the Welsh language hardly raises an "English question", does it? This, for one, is a clear example, surely, of sensible, logical and common sense devolution of power.
Your other question has been answered many times by Dewi_H and others here, if I remember correctly.
But yes, Brynt41 at #67 does overstate the case - rhinoceroses surely treat each other's opinions with far more respect than many contributors to these blogs do.
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Bostoniwr, your #73 .....
You don't know what the "English question" is do you?
You're memory is not as sharp as you might think, or you failed to read my question, either way you choose not to debate as is your prerogative.
Your final paragraph is ...... forgettable.
The rugby was very satisfying, all Wales needed was a good managing staff, the talent has always been inherent.
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Halpenny excellent thank God (You won't get much change out of him boom boom) - I really think we are a thread of a needle away from ripping someone apart...France I hope!
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#74 Saer Maen
What makes you say that? Did you not like my response?
In any case, it obviously touched you in some way, judging by the ad hominem nature of your comment.
Not forgettable enough to escape comment, it seems.
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Bostoniwr
You don't know what the "English question" is, if you did you would realise why it was/has been raised. It's a very real question.
Your response .....
"In any case ..... etc etc ..... sense devolution of power."
..... confirms my opinion that you have not considered this very important constitutional question to the continuing Union of the UK.
I will leave fallacious responses to yourself and chums.
If you called "Saer Maen" I would not respond outwith the Cyber world, I count and dream in English you see.
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Don't want to enter any argument over Welsh language or any other, just wanted to say well done wee Wales !
From a disappointed Scottish supporter!
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Going back to the original thread - Don Touhig would be an excellent replacement for Sir Emyr - might introduce a bit of balance by scrapping the propagandist formula currently being used by the AWC and promoting the real pros and cons.
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Message 79....
I'll second that, but would the gaggle in the Bay go for it?....
.....extremely doubtful!
They know their goose would be cooked by having Don in charge.
He's already lit the preheat on the oven.
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DisgustedDoroth at 78
Didn't they do well :))
Scotland havn't got it together yet - commiserations!
legendaryavocet at 79 Don Touhig what a good idea - but failing that as the Assembly is funding the Yes campaign through the AWC - surely for balance they should also fund True Wales!
Dewi_H at 71,
Personally ["A Parliament for Prosperity"]
I find the Parliament bit unacceptable - Westminster provides the Parliment.
There is no reason for us to have separate Legal System, Civil Service, or Tax System.
We don't need a separate Diplomatic Service, Defence force, Health Service, or any of the other massively expensive organisations that are needed to service and run a modern country.
Best to share those costs and structures with our Brothers as members of the United Kingdom.
What we need is devolved powers sufficient to run the things in Wales that will enable us to give our people the best quality of life, allow them to attain their aspirations and personal dreams, however grand those may be.
Powers that will allow us to develop our infrastructures and resolve the geographic constraints that impedes our economy businesses, fishing and farming ventures, and powers that let us support them through difficulties and help them succeed.
Well we already have all that - and our Assembly Government has screwed up on just about everything.
Vince Cable on BBC news today talking to Andrew Marr made the point, that as a result of the current global economic problems, all Governments are going to be desperately short of funds for anything.
The last 10-15 years of profligate spending and a bottomless moneypit - to fund nonsense schemes and massive do nothing quangos are over.
We are moving into a new era, one where Governments (including local Government)have to examine and justify all expenditure, if it is not essential it doesn't get done.
Departments will disappear those left have to downsize. No more jobs for the boys (and girls) Lean mean and if it doesn't deliver its out.
Now lets consider what all this means for the National Assembly - the powers its got and the powers it wants.
If you have to wield the knife where will it cut.
Assume we have to run Wales on half our current budget.
What is essential and must be kept - what is border line - and what has to go.
Remember the first priority is the Welfare of our people, the farmers have to feed them, and our Industries have to provide jobs and be able to survive in this new competitive world.
Dependence on benefits and government Jobs for all is yesterday's answer, there will be no money for those luxuries.
Well?
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#79 wrote:
"... Touhig would be an excellent replacement for Sir Emyr"
Touhig has an excellent voting record. Wales is so much a better place because of him. I think not.
He voted strongly for:
- ID Cards (and the National Identity Register)
- Foundation Hospitals and private finance
- Student top-up fees
He voted very strongly for:
- New Labour's anti-terrorism legislation - the most right wing ever
- the War in Iraq
- and Trident
(see 'theyworkforyou.com)
As far as I can see he hasn't done anything much, if at all, for Wales in his political career. He followed Kinnock as Islwyn's MP. Kinnock was another who did nothing for Wales, and has feathered his nest from his political career, at Wales' expense. One wonders if there's anything in the water in that part of the Valleys. Touhig has New Labour's seventh largest majority in the Commons. It looks as if a donkey with a Labour rosette could be elected there.
Paul Flynn says that Touhig is ambitious, but his political career hasn't got him very far, despite sucking up to Blair and Brown. He ardently supported New Labour's right wing agenda since they gained power in 1997. Touhig should talk about the 'elite' ('crachach') in his own party before pointing the finger at anyone else. Its pretty nigh impossible to differentiate by appearance or rhetoric Labour's front benchers from Tory front benchers. How many of them have like Blair done well financially from their period in government whilst leaving the country in a dire mess?
Wales can do without representatives like Touhig. Hopefully the voters of Islwyn will come to their senses at the next election and give him and his likes the boot.
The days when Labour had MPs of substance and conscience, like Cledwyn Hughes and John Morris, have long gone. Its now a party bereft of ideals and principles. Its only goal is to get and keep power at all costs. It will do and say anything. Fortunately the electorate has seen through their weasel words. They will be kicked into outer darkness at the next election, and they deserve it.
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Message 82...
Maybe Don Touhig is a product of his day.
Acting the way he has because that is what seemed to be the best at the time.
I think we can all act against what is seen as 'principles' whenever the need is there to dos so.
That is not to excuse anything he may have done, that goes against the grain, just to say, who in his place would have done different....maybe Brynt41?
Perhaps if that guy sees Touhig as a waster, he should stand against him at the next election.
That would soon sort out who the electors wanted, a chap with a longish record of reasonable constituency service behind him, or a bossyboots, who's great at dragging up scurrilous stuff to smear people with.
The same guy who has no hesitation in finding fault with anyone who does not take to the political path he wishes to steer everyone down..
I wager those two you mentioned would not have been behind the headlong rush to get Wales out of the UK.
Certainly not in front of it.
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#82 'Its only goal is to get and keep power at all costs'.
Unfortunately, of late that has meant getting into bed with the nats thereby giving them a disproportionate voice in government.
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#84
"...getting into bed with the nats.."
Read my posts... Plaid were out of their minds getting into bed with Labour, imho.
Name one good thing about that party.. go on!
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Don Touhig, my own dear MP.
Don't know what I do wrong in writing to him, but I certainly get quite a bit of difficulty getting any kind of straight answer.
Never mind, Islwyn's Peoples Voice got a good showing in the last Assembly elections - maybe a concerted push at the next general could get us a genuine MP who speaks for us rather than whomsoever happens to be controlling his (or her) career at the time...
BTW Mappex, I wonder why you didn't do the "Come on boys, fair play, you have to understand the timing / context / wind direction" speech during the 'Saunders Lewis was anti semitic' furore on another thread.
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#86 Jus1nD
"BTW Mappex, I wonder why you didn't do the "Come on boys, fair play, you have to understand the timing / context / wind direction" speech during the 'Saunders Lewis was anti semitic' furore on another thread."
hear! hear! As if evidence of double standards was necessary! :)
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messages 85 and 86....
Did I comment on that thread, using that sort of rhetroric?
As I recall I made no comments at all re Saunders Lewis, apart maybe, from a generalised one.
I shall have to trawl back across to see what I did write, if indeed anything at all.
Maybe you can save me the effort, by reminding me on what thread and in what message I made such comment.
Then perhaps, as you have made issue of it, I will comment in a different vein.
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Messages 86 and 87....
Sudden silence!
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Looks as if we won't be losing Emyr Jones Parry after all. The Bosnian Serbs say they won't accept a British diplomat. Now if he'd been marketed as Welsh ... ?
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