Baulking
I once found myself in a pretty sticky situation in Bosnia.
I was working for HTV Wales, based in Split but determined to be the first Welsh journalist to get to Bugojno in Bosnia to interview Royal Welch Fusiliers whose colleagues and in some cases, brothers were being held hostage in the Muslim town of Gorazde.
The Australian cameraman and I set off at dawn, having been advised that setting off early gave us the best chance of making it in one piece .The thinking went like this: the snipers would have been drinking a lot to fend off the cold of the night and wouldn't be in any condition to aim straight. I thought how pleased my mother would be to know that, as we headed off.
We'd nearly made it when we came to yet another checkpoint, the last we hoped before arriving in Bogojno. We'd been through countless checkpoints already, all manned by Croats who'd waved us through with our countless accreditation papers and press passes, including in my case a HTV Wales pass.
But this time, as I flashed my pass their faces fell, the guns came out and so did I from the car pretty sharpish. This was a Muslim checkpoint and too late, I realised the HTV - as they saw it - stood for Hvratska TV, Croatian television. Thankfully they let me explain before we were finally waved through to meet eighteen year old soldiers from Caernarfon and Bangor who wished they'd never seen the huge former shoe factory that had been their home for what felt like far too long.
It was the Serbs who'd taken their fellow soldiers hostage in Gorazde but though we tried more than once, I never made it to the Serb-held areas Bosnia to tell the story first hand.
And now comes the news that supporters of the work of the All Wales Convention owe the Serba - and the Russians - a vote of thanks.
How come?
The Chair of the Convention, Sir Emyr Jones Parry, will not be heading off to Bosnia after all. Austrian diplomat Valentin Inzko is Bosnia's new EU and international high representative, "pending approval by other members of the country's peace council" say Reuters.
That's because the Russians, according to Bosnian media, were against appointing a British diplomat to do the job because Bosnia's Serb Republic wouldn't accept a British diplomat. Reuters report that the "Bosnian Serbs see Britons as biased against Serbs after British diplomat Paddy Ashdown, who had served as international high representative in Bosnia from 2002-2005, sacked a number of Serb officials and took measures to strengthen the state."
So, thanks to the Russians, Sir Emyr gets on with the job here.
On Thursday we'll add to the debate by revealing the results of a poll on further powers for the National Assembly conducted for BBC Wales. Some seem to think they have an idea what it says. That would show a certain genius, a Gail Trimble-like genius, given that not only have we not been told yet what the level of support is for full law-making powers for the Assembly.
The pollsters are only half way through the job of posing the question.
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~26~RS~)
Comments
Sign in or register to comment.
'Sticky'-'Split'?
I hope the author didn't try one of those... painful!
I don't know if its good news or bad news that EJP is 'sticking' around. (Please bear with my dislike of pompus-sounding titles and honours bestowed by an English monarch).
As for the results of the poll, who knows. It all depends on the questions asked and on background information provided.
I've already stated, if I were a gambler, which I'm not, I would bet on there not being a referendum because it won't have the wholehearted political support of the Labour establishment.
Unless there is overwhelming public support in Wales, there isn't going to be a successful Yes vote whilst the parties, especially Labour, are divided. What is truly unforgivable is that Labour MPs representing Wales will act out of pure self-interest, to save their cushy jobs and pensions.
That is a shame because Wales will be the worst for it. I doubt if the BBC's polling organization will have informed the members of the public they polled that Wales will have to endure an unworkable Assembly for an indefinite period in the event of a No vote or if a referendum is not held.
Who do we blame... the inappropriately named 'True Wales', which I'm told is largely supported by a few small-minded Labour activists, or the anti-Welsh Touhigs and Murphys of this world?
Both are doing Wales and its people a great disservice. Shame on them!
Complain about this comment
Politicians are only as good as the people who elect them - we in Wales get what we ask for. If we want further law-making powers then it's up to ordinary people to get together and organise to campaign for them.
We in Wales are victims of our own apathy and lack of confidence as a people, and that is why we are treated like second-class citizens in the UK.
Complain about this comment
If this poll does show more support for a no vote then I'm afraid it shows only one thing and that is nothing to do with 'a lack of confidence as a people'.
What it will show is that people are dissapointed with the 10 years of the WAG and devolution that we've had.
It sounds like such a cliche to say it but recently even your average person on the street is aware that the WAG (and in particular Plaid) are always pushing for more without actually utilising what they've already got... and that sort of thing never goes down well.
Of course, due to the AWC propoganda campaign the results of any poll will be close... but if it comes out with 'no' on top then they cant say they werent warned! Listen to all the people of Wales and all of their concerns... not just a vocal minority of vitriolic nationalists.
Complain about this comment
I'm assuming that it has to be St David's day next week. The annual poll with the usual majority in favour of lawmaking powers now takes it place as part of the traditional St David's day celebrations. The only problem with all of this is that the only poll that matters is the one that takes place on referendum day. When will that be ? We don't know because the political elite are not sure of the result. If they were it would have taken place last year. Nationalists are not as confident now that the credit crunch has shown that the little countries of Europe are finding it particularly tough. Some of us still fondly remember Helen Mary's article looking forward to the day when Wales would take its rightful place in the arc of prosperity alongside mighty Iceland. But with the Celtic Tiger now running low on fuel and thousands on the streets of Dublin, life outside the UK doesn't look so promising. For Labour devolutionists the fear is that any referendum will be used as a protest vote in the dying days of the Westminster Labour government. Far better to wait for Mr Cameron and use possible anti Tory feeling to generate the 'yes' vote and repeat 1997 instead of 1979. All of them of course are worried how those who didn't vote in 1997 or any Assembly election will react. They are basically in the same position as Winston Churchill before 1914 when he looked out of a railway carriage and said to his companion that he wondered what the people living in the London terraces by the railway line were thinking. The political elite in Wales simply don't know how people will react in a future referendum because they are so often out of touch with public opinion. Far easier to set targets for walking than thinking out strategies to really improve the lives of ordinary people. Lacking the confidence to campaign for a'yes' vote many are quite content to drift towards political retirement whilst continuing to pocket their expenses. Whatever happened to having the courage of your convictions I wonder? Non conformists in the 19th century used to urge their offspring to " Dare to to be a Daniel". Where are the Daniels of the future Wales when we need them? Not in the Assembly I'm afraid.
Complain about this comment
In response to the Cybernats ....
Where a group of Welsh people see their vision of democracy as 'True Wales', there is no shame, certainly not the shame that the charlatans of separatism should feel, those iniquitous Pied Pipers who are trying to lead the people of Wales over the cliff of Independence have lost the argument and resort to insults.
Where the electorate oppose the aspirations of "Plaid Cymru" they are anointed with the label "small-minded", presumably because they find the PC Plans for the hypothetical "Elitist" future unpalatable.
The vitriolic rhetoric will always end by granting the title "anti-Welsh" to any remaining uncategorised opposition to minority Welsh politics.
I suspect that "Plaid Cymru" is the refuge of those who are unable to swim in a large pond, unable to survive except as small pond bully's.
Complain about this comment
Stonemason...your grammar and your ideas are both equally bad. Get yourself a book on English grammar, and stop repeating the same old tired,anti Welsh cliches
Complain about this comment
Firstly the GOWA 2006 is a creature of the Labour Party - not Plaid's. This means that the current proposed modest extension of devolution, which in truth is just a speeding and a simplification of the powers to pass laws - not anything new, is Labour party policy. What most of the contributors here on the prodevolution side are pointing out the incredible efforts of the anti devolutionists to scare voters. They present visions of fascist dictatorships presiding over an economic desert with people ethnically cleansed etc. If sometimes they don't say it directly that is what they imply. This devalues the whole process. Blatant lies told by True Wales are trotted out time and time again with no justification, hoping if you tell a lie big enough and often enough it will stick. These scare stories worked well enough in 1979 and I think they will do the job again.
Complain about this comment
To Stoney.....
re: message 6....
Seems another out of work schoolteacher has joined the blog.
Grammar is all well and good, if one is attempting to put over a fairly difficult bit of prose, but on this blog, as long as the message is understandable, who cares about Grammar, spelling, or whatever?
Obviously those Nats and Nuts certainly do, for the simple reason they cannot find fault with the message otherwise.
Complain about this comment
Like buses, you wait ages and then two polls come along at once.
The BBC St David's Day poll, if tradition is anything to go by, will be by ICM. The data is only collected a few days before publication.
In contrast, the other information due for release in the next few weeks is from research done for the AWC in Dec 2008. The result was leaked to the WM with the comment:
"The poll findings are very good from the
point of view of those who want the
Assembly to get full law-making powers ...
The data collected from this research is
currently confidential and will be subjected
to further analysis before being shared with
the All Wales Convention executive
committee. Following this, the results will
be published in early March."
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/welsh-politics/welsh-politics-news/2009/02/14/research-shows-support-for-law-making-powers-for-wales-91466-22926209/
Make of that what you will, but my guess is that if one set of results shows a marked move towards a "Yes" vote, so will the other.
Complain about this comment
In the link above, Cynog Dafis of the Tomorrow's Wales 'Yes' campaign says:
As I understand it, the opposition group True Wales has not presented evidence to the Commission.
How does he know? Is the AWC sharing it's data with TW? If so, very naughty - surely this could be a matter for investigation by the Information Commissioner.
Complain about this comment
ATTENTION ALL PEDANTS.
Punctuation omission ALERT.
I have received a report from Pedantry High Command that posting #6 from monmouthisnotverygoodatenglish has made three omissions of punctuation in the last line of the sentence.
1......No space between 'tired,' and 'anti'.
2......Anti-Welsh should be hyphenated.
3......Sentence is missing a concluding full stop.
Please take note, monmouthisnotverygoodatenglish, this laxity on your part will NOT be tolerated. We'll be keeping a close eye on you.
Stoney. To err is human, to forgive, divine.
I sincerely hope that you are able to extend the hand of forgiveness to our colleague, monmouthisabsolutelyrubbishatenglish. I have every confidence that he/she will benefit from our benevolence and magnanimity.
Complain about this comment
gonoph, your #11
"momouthisenglish" is far to clever for me to understand his point .....
..... as a stonemason of limited education I was far to busy paying my taxes, so that "momouthisenglish" could become a nationalist, to avail myself of university. If I am to young it would have been my fathers taxes. My output is bedded in stone.
The message from the wall is "Plaid Cymru is poverty", simple, never has this excuse for a political party explained how it would implement its 1950's style socialist policies, it has never explained what affect their pseudo communist plans would have on the people of Wales, as my grandmother would say it is "all mouth and trousers".
I have a suspicion that "momouthisenglish" is "brynt41" in a monks cowl.
Complain about this comment
Reading Bethan Jenkins's comments on the web regarding the referendum explains why only 14 members of her party voted for her to be a list candidate in the 2007 Assembly elction. What an air head! We really should insist that all politicians are actually forced to seek real employment before putting themselves forward for election. But there again who would employ someone with such limited ability. No one reading her comments can have any confidence in the ability of the yes side of the debate to put forward coherent arguments for more lawmaking powers. It increasingly looks in a world of anti politics that we could be heading for a rerun of 1979 not a repeat of 1997. Any referendum whenever it is held will for many be a chance to deliver their verdict on the performance of the Assembly since 1999. Bethan Jenkins and others really have to step up to the plate. Her answers in her interview were frankly just not good enough even for someone who was on their local school council let alone the Assembly.
Complain about this comment
Bethan Jenkins says: 'That in itself is democratic because if there was absolutely no desire for further powers then we couldn't be considering a referendum on that issue. The people of Wales are sovereign and it is they who should always have the final say on constitutional change'.
Bethan has a warped idea of democracy. 10 years ago, 25% of the Welsh people voted for a National Assembly. Since then it has developed into a 'Government', and we have not been allowed the opportunity to vote either on that, or the specifics of the Government of Wales Act 2006. This is not democracy - we must have a referendum now.
#10 refers.
I still want to know how Cynog Dafis knows who has, or has not, presented evidence to the All Wales Convention.
Complain about this comment
#12 Thestonemason wrote:
"I have a suspicion that "momouthisenglish" is "brynt41" in a monks cowl."
Now that is casting aspersions. Note that I wrote 'anti-Welsh' including the hyphen in #1.
You are a suspicious person, going by your history of comments, you're almost paranoid about those of us who want a better Wales through self-determination. You're almost as bad as mapexx who sees conspiracies in everything to do with Wales.
Its wysiwyg with me. I don't need false aliases. Although I do have some 'English' credentials.. I would qualify, had I the ability, to play for England, but I wouldn't ever call myself English, not even as a joke.
Complain about this comment
Completely off topic, but when did BBC decide that we are no longer a nation, and that Rhodri was demoted ????
Betsan - is this a deliberate change in policy?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7908836.stm
Complain about this comment
Penddu should realise that Northern Ireland news cannot use the phrase nation because of the political implications for Unionist opinion in the province. For Ulster Unionists ,Northern Ireland is a region of the United Kingdom. What is interesting is that Northern Ireland news has not swallowed the SNP spin about the importance of today's meeting. No mention of fighting to stop budget cutbacks only concern about the fate of savings in a Northern Ireland financial institution. In complete contrast to old Rhodri who seems to be following in Salmond's slip stream for some reason. For the UK government today's meeting is something that you have to put up with. Darling has already correctly told BBC Scotland on the weekend that he finds it unbelievable that Salmond given the size of the Scottish budget cannot find the savings required. The Assembly had better wake up to the fact that it is in for a pretty tough time over the next few years. No more free gifts for the people of Wales I'm afraid from the philanthropists in the Bay. Rhodri of course doesn't mind because by then he will be by then Baron Mwnt and be spending most of his time watching the dolphins in Cardigan Bay.
Complain about this comment
message 16....
Far be it from me to defend the BBC, the corporation is more than capable to do that for it'self, however, since when has Wales been a Nation? Never in any of my historical studies, and you can believe me when I tell you I have done some of that.
A nation has certain aspects that Wales does not have.
A region is what Wales is, a region of the United Kingdom.
Plain and simple,..... so why you people come on here with this silly and childish attachment to the idea that this region is a 'nation' is beyond credence.
Complain about this comment
To Mapexx -
So presumably you're going to start a campaign to re-name the "6 Nations" the "3 Nations and 3 Regions" - somehow it just ain't as catchy...
Complain about this comment
Re: 16 Mapexx wrote ....
"Far be it from me to defend the BBC, the corporation is more than capable to do that for it'self, however, since when has Wales been a Nation? Never in any of my historical studies, and you can believe me when I tell you I have done some of that."
According to authors and historians A.E. Wade-Evans, Martin Charlesworth, Gwyn A Williams, and John Davies the origin of the Welsh nation, with a distinctive Welsh language and culture, can be traced to the late 4th and early 5th centuries, following the Roman withdrawal from Britain.
In particular, Wade-Evans and Charlesworth claim that Breudd Macsen (Magnus Maximus) can be haild as the "father" of the Welsh nation, considering his contrabutions to the various Welsh kingdom successor states south of Hadrian's Wall.
Davies, John (1994) A History of Wales. Penguin: p.54; ISBN 0-14-01-4581-8.
Complain about this comment
Mapexx, Are you suggesting rebranding the 6 Nations as the 3 Nations and 3 Regions?
You are confusing the term Nation (which Wales clearly is) with Sovereign State (which we unfortunatley are not....yet).
But you know this.
Complain about this comment
And Mapexx, since you are keen that the BBC can defend itself I refer you to one of their own websites - only one example - there are plenty of others and I think that this includes the Constitution of the BBC itself:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/commissioning/tv/local/
Complain about this comment
#16
It is the BBC which we are talking about. 'British' is what its all about. When it comes to the crunch, can we expect it to welcome being broken up?
That news item you quote was probably written by an English person in London, who thinks that the only nation in these islands is 'Britain' or ''England'.
After the refusal of the BBC to air the Gaza DEC Appeal, I not longer trust it for any news reporting. Broadcasting should be devolved to the nations of the UK and to Northern Ireland.
Complain about this comment
message 20.....
....here we go again, back into the erratic history of this region, when Wales was a nation?
Not a chance Drech, you are clutching at straws, written by men of straw with an agenda to follow.
Try being modern and PRACTICAL.
This is the 21 st century, where we live in MODERN Wales, not in some guessed at medieval backwater that was hardly on the map when that history you are fond of was happening.
Message 19...
draig 32, (age or hat size?)
The reasons for the naming of the six as 'nations' I have explained before elsewhere, but be my guest. ask me nicely and I will lay it all out again, in case you missed it earlier.
Complain about this comment
Hello Lyn re 7
You rightly point out that;
"the GOWA 2006 is a creature of the Labour Party "
Ok - but the 2006 Act gives the NAW the right to obtain Legislative powers, despite the promise made to the people of Wales that further powers for would only be granted subject to a Referendum.
A Referendum needs to ask whether the terms of 2006 Act are acceptable.
I like many Welsh people consider myself British, proud of our democracy and Parliament.
It is at Westminster that the laws for the whole UK should be made - we don't need a separate legislature, or different treatment.
The devolved powers of the NAW prior to the 2006 act are more than adequate to deal with the particular problems unique to Wales.
However the structure and performance of the NAW is a disaster it needs to be removed and replaced by better more democratic and functional body.
You state;
"If you tell a lie big enough and often enough it will stick"
This of course is one of the standard accusations. I think the relevant 1930’s handbook goes on to say something like; Propaganda doesn't need to be true or intelligent - it just needs to work.
But this comment deserves a response;
"They present visions of fascist dictatorships presiding over an economic desert with people ethnically cleansed etc"
1/ Definition of Fascism, according to Roger Griffin;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Griffin
"Fascism is a political ideology whose mythic core in its various permutations is a palingenetic form of populist ultra-nationalism".
The word "palingenetic" in this sense refers to notions of rebirth (in this case, national rebirth), and carries a similar meaning as the words "apocalyptic" and "millennarian", but without religious connotations.
Now am not suggesting the Nationalists are fascists, the Welsh people must draw their own conclusions.
But the Nationalists are certainly using the propaganda methods favoured by those extremists, just as you have done in post 7.
2/ Economic desert –
There has been a lot of waffle, but any rigorous evaluation shows there is no realistic possibility for an Independent Wales to generate enough income either to support our current government spending commitments, or for the Welsh people to maintain their current standard of living.
Dreams and aspirations are one thing reality is something very different.
3/ People Ethnically cleansed - I don't think any one has suggested that, accusational overkill, don't you think - bit like comparing the economic potential for an Independent Wales, to the Worlds Third Largest Oil & Gas exporter.
Not Ethnic Cleansing - just Cultural Engineering, different thing altogether. : )
Complain about this comment
Betsan:
I am glad that you made it thru the HTV Wales years and the assignment in the Former Yugoslavia safe and sound...
(**//**)
Re: Sir Emyr Jones Parry
I am sorry that he did not get the assignment for the Bosnia region representative of the European Union...
~Dennis Junior~
Complain about this comment
Message 23....
Had the BBC actually gone against it's own rules to air an appeal for the murdering thugs of Gaza, I would have been far more virulent than I have so far been accused of being.
You are obviously ignorant of the mentality of those in Gaza, and oblivious to their fundamental attitude, and their irrational adherence to their phony religious ethics.
I would suggest a few years living amongst the Muslims in their heartlands, not sympathising with them from the comfort of your computer chair.
I have been there and done just that. Lived amongst them and listened, as they drone on incessantly about how Islam will soon take over the world, of how they have cells in every western country to foment trouble, and to attempt to 'convert' the weak minded to their faith.
You don't know you are alive, or what is happening at the college and school your kids attend, the proselytizing these people are getting on with, by bending the minds of many of our young people.
You can take it from me, that this fundamental fervour is not contained with the Hamas alone, it is life itself to everyone who lives there. They are indoctrinated with it from the cradle to the grave.
This is what the liberal democratic westerner cannot grasp, it is so deeply ingrained, that even if Allah himself came down and told them he was a myth they would not believe him.
The level to which these people believe everything they are told, is incredible, and YOU want MY BBC, to which I pay a relatively large sum of money every year, via licence and other charges, to support every effort of the Gazans, as they do their damnedest to destroy a modern, fully functioning democratic state.
This goes to show just how ignorant you are of occurrences and matters outside of this petty region of the UK.
Momentarily they are on hold, because the price of the oil they rely on to hold us to ransom, and use against us in their propaganda, is less than we have been paying up until recent times.
Yes, my friendly Gaza lover, it is YOUR money that is already funding the armaments they are using to test Israel's nerve on a daily basis.
And you castigate the BBC for refusing to join in their game.
Are you really for real?
Complain about this comment
re: 24
If you can not accept modern scholarly and universally accepted classifications then you are hopeless in the extream in your prejudices.
I say "keep it up Mapexx," because with each sentence you spout you demonstrate more and more why Wales needs to become independent. So keep it up! haha!
By the way, Davies is one of the most estemed of modern Welsh historians.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/mid/sites/lampeter/pages/johndavies.shtml
I will let you take up nationhood with him, for I cetinly do not place any stock in yourself or point of view!
Complain about this comment
re: 25 West Wales
"I like many Welsh people consider myself British, proud of our democracy and Parliament."...
Well, that "many others" is 7% of the total population of Wales, which included about 30% born outside of Wales.
"As expected, the most important factor associated with Welsh identity was country of birth. People born in Wales were far more likely to describe their national identity as Welsh (87 per cent) compared with those born in England (15 per cent), in other UK countries (17 per cent) or outside the UK (13 per cent)."
So, really, the vast majority of Wales born Welsh consider their ethnicity as Welsh.
I can't wait for the next census.
"There has been a lot of waffle, but any rigorous evaluation shows there is no realistic possibility for an Independent Wales to generate enough income either to support our current government spending commitments, or for the Welsh people to maintain their current standard of living."
Of corse there have been studies that demonstrate an independent Wales would be able to sustain itself economically. For one, an independent Wales can offer tax incentives for companies to remain in Wales. Additionally, profits from the energy produced in Wales and sold abroad will go towards the Welsh economy. Also, additional incentives may be offered to retian the capital generated in Wales to remain in Wales.
As it is now, most of the capital raised in Wales has been siphoned off to England. This can not be allowed any longer if Wales were to survive.
I personally belive you want Wales to flop, which is a sad commentary. I say keep up your statements as it demonstrates to the wider community what your motives are.
Anywhos.
This statement sounds more correct:
"Now am not suggesting the British Nationalists/Unionists are fascists, the Welsh people must draw their own conclusions.
But the British Nationalists/Unionists are certainly using the propaganda methods favoured by those extremists,"
Complain about this comment
re: 23 Brynt
"After the refusal of the BBC to air the Gaza DEC Appeal, I not longer trust it for any news reporting. Broadcasting should be devolved to the nations of the UK and to Northern Ireland"
QFE (Quote for Emphasis)
In August 2007 Plaid Cymru MP Adam Price highlighted what he perceived as a lack of a Welsh focus on BBC news broadcasts. Price threatened to withhold future television licence fees in response to a lack of thorough news coverage of Wales, echoing a BBC Audience Council for Wales July report citing public frustration over how the Welsh Assembly is characterised in national media. Plaid AM Bethan Jenkins agreed with Price and called for responsibility for broadcasting to be devolved to the Welsh Assembly, voicing similar calls from Scotland's First Minister Alex Salmond. Criticism of the BBC's news coverage for Wales and Scotland since devolution prompted debate about the possibility of providing evening news broadcasts with specific focus for both countries.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/6955263.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/6898870.stm
Complain about this comment
Mapexx at post 24.
Oblige me - out of curiousity is it an argument you use in the pubs during the 6 NATIONS too?
Complain about this comment
-Drachenfyre-, your #29
where you smear people who prefer the present day UK, to the Plaid Cymru version of a future, as .....
"fascists"
..... when in reality, those that oppose Plaid Cymru are the "democrats" of Wales.
I might refer you to the 1930's when a despicable minority destroyed many countries in the name of elitist supremacy, so very similar to the aspirations of "Plaid Cymru the party of Separation". Now, as then, there are democrats to oppose the "Elitist Minority".
Complain about this comment
The "democrats of Wales" are all of those willing to engage in political debate for the present and future of Wales.
You've tried to stick Plaid with the faciest regiems before, and it did not go very well.
You forget some of the most out spoken suporters of tjpse faciest regiems were in England! UK politicians of other parties offered endorsements for fascist leaders. In 1933 Winston Churchill characterised Mussolini as 'the greatest lawgiver among men', and later wrote in his 1937 book Great Contemporaries, "If our country were defeated, I hope we should find a champion as admirable (as Hitler) to restore our courage and lead us back to our place among the nations". In the same work, Churchill expressed a hope that despite Hitler's apparent dictatorial tendencies, he would use his power to rebuild Germany into a worthy member of the world community. And in August 1936, Liberal party member David Lloyd George met Hitler at Berchtesgaden and offered some public comments that were surprisingly favourable to the German dictator, expressing warm enthusiasm both for Hitler personally and for Germany's public works schemes (upon returning, he wrote of Hitler in the Daily Express as "the greatest living German", "the George Washington of Germany").
And yet you forget that Plaid members were just as vocal against facism as anyone. Especially DJ Davies, Gwynfor Evans, and Ambrose Bebb.
_________________________
Through out Betsan's blogs recently there is a rash of minority British Nationalist/Unionist rhetoric telling the people of Wales not to turst their democratically elected Welsh Assembly, rather to put their trust in London, where 40 Welsh MPs will be out-voted by the remaining MPs when issues affecting another member of the "union" come up.
Witness "The flooding of Capel Celyn" when universal Welsh political opposition to the act failed to prevent the English dominated UK Parliament and Tory administration from passing the act in favor of Liverpool.
Have things really changed since then? No. All the fruits of Welsh labour are siphoned off to corporate fat cats in London rather then remaining in Wales and invested in Wales.
This is another reason for a Welsh Stock Market. To keep capital generated in Wales -in- Wales!
British Nationalists/Unionists have not given any solid good reason to remain part of the UK, rather use scare tactics trying to scare the Welsh people into believing that they can not be independent, and need the reassuring guidence of London, and some mythicial and nauseating"family bond" between England and Wales, and that Wales is somehow England's younger brother and in need of its benevolent guidence.
Thats not good enough.
Fortunatly, Bitish nationalists/Unionist rhetoric does not hold much water with the Welsh people. The Conservative party is marginal in Wales at best, and they know it.. thus the tentitive overtures by some in their leadership.
But having said that, I *do* hope they do win the next General Election. Nothing galvanizes the Welsh electorate more then a Tory government in London. Some of the best achievements Towards Welsh Freedom has been under Tory administrations.
Can you imagine how solidly the Scottish people will stand behind independence once a Tory government is in power! lol.
Each time the Tory government meddels with LCO's or with further parlaimentry powers in Wales the Welsh will see that as further evidence of Imperalism.
Add to that that once Labour is out of power, all of Welsh Labour will be solidly in favor of more authority for the Welsh Assembly, as a matter of survival. "Better to Rule in Wales" then rule no where, as the saying goes.
So Bring It!
Complain about this comment
#25 West-Wales wrote:
"...the 2006 Act gives the NAW the right to obtain Legislative powers.."
Not quite. The NAW has the right to 'ask' or 'request' legislative powers under the Act.
The Act provides an elaborate and unwieldy mechanism to provide those powers IF, the Welsh Affairs Committee and IF the House of Commons and IF the UNELECTED House of Lords and IF the Secretary of State ALL agree. If ANY or ALL of them disagree, the NAW gets no powers.
That arrangement is akin to Poynings' Law (1494) which allowed the English Parliament to decide what legislation the Irish Parliament could pass.
Perhaps you might understand why the Irish don't want anything to do with England. They learnt their lesson long ago.
You are correct in blaming the LABOUR PARTY for the mess that has resulted, and we will be able to blame TOUHIG and MURPHY and co for perpetuating it for an indefinite period.
Complain about this comment
message 29....
As I have said before, I do not dispute that a very large number of people claimed Welsh 'ethnicity', not that the term is truly applicable, however, your assumption that only 7% will opt to say they are British is a fatuous one. Have you any real factual information to back up that silly statement? Before you say yes to that, I say NO you cannot back it up, because such real facts do not exist,. the only reference you have for any of YOUR 'facts' are the census returns, which were inadequate as far as truth was concerned.
Many people said they spoke Cymraeg, when in fact they do not, many said they were able to understand the language, when the truth is, they were unable to even translate the Cymraeg name of their own locality into English, when asked to do so..
Before you say I am wrong, keep one thing in mind, I WAS a Census enumerator in the 2001 census, and am already signed to be one again in the next census.
I was also engaged to do a follow up series of interviews with many across the south east Wales area. I found very very little, in the way of fluency to any level, beyond a few simple words.
This despite the number who supposedly were 'fluent' on their census returns.
As I recall, the supposed level in the Gwent area was declared to be some 12 to 15%, but that would mean I should be able to meet a fluent Cymraeg speaker in one in 8 to 1 in 6.5 of the population of this area, I am afraid that is just not the way it is.
Even my MP's web site gives a more realistic figure of just 2 to 3%, and I would say even that is a gross over estimate.
Both being based on whoever has interpreted the census 2001 returns.
I am afraid you are spelling out the statistics as you wish them to be, not as they in fact are.
Message 30.....
The first action by rebellious upstarts is to take over the means of mass communications.
This is what you are proposing, and supporting in your message, is it?
The purpose behind such a motion being, of course, to ensure that ONLY your propaganda is transmitted in the area you control, or have plans to so do.
No doubt the reason the WAG/Assembly have stated they wish to 'take over' S4C.
Their message is obviously NOT getting through to as many as they hope for, or as fast as they wish to have it out to the people they want to control', so by taking the channel out of the hands of those who are presently managing it (very badly it seems) they can fill the airwaves with more of the stuff they cannot at present got out due to regulations in the broadcasting field.
message 31.....
I do not frequent pubs, but that aside, whenever the subject has come up, and the very specific and rational reason for the 6 'nations' being so called is explained, it only ever seems to cause any sort of pain to those with a nationalist bias.
Normal people understand the reasons, especially when pressed to find any basis for Wales being called a nation per se, with the political undertones contained in the implications of that concept.
Most whom I have discussed the idea with fail to see any advantage in Wales being politically separated from the Union.
More often they say, although claiming to be Welsh, they can readily see the potential for financial collapse of the region once the Union ceases to fund us, but that has nothing to do with their perception of their regional attachment.
One may as well say, because their Dad is out of work, and the money fails to come in, that one should move out and go it alone, all well and good if one can really and truly, INSTANTLY support oneself, (which Wales certainly can not do) but if totally dependent on Dad's earnings, then all that can be expected is even further, and deeper levels of poverty to ensue.
Such is the fate of this region if certain ambitions were to be fulfilled.
But at the end of it all, whilst we are spending a third of a billion plus, to simply fund the Assembly/WAG, and it's administration, there is no latitude whatsoever to take us further down the road to independence.
If that third of a billion plus, were spent more wisely at local levels, most of our present local stringency measures would be not required.
Further increases in local taxation, are wiped out by the cost of what goes on in the Bay of Pigs.
I for one, object to such squandering of MY money.
It's a crazy situation to spend such a vast sum, on a tier of governance that is simply not needed.
Complain about this comment
Re 27
This man is hysterical - in all senses of the word.
More and more hatred. And yet again you include everyone in the group as objects of that hate.
You say, mapexx:
"I have been there and done just that. "
... living with Muslims, that is. Just out of interest, do you mean Birmingham by any chance?
Complain about this comment
Do the following quotes mean that you will be voting Tory boyos? Hmmm...
At 6:11pm on 17 Feb 2009, TheStonemason wrote:
I think our David [Cameron] is asking the WAGocracy to demonstrate it's abilities with what powers have been devolved, GCSE in Government maybe.
A breath of fresh air.
At 5:54pm on 25 Feb 2009, TheStonemason wrote:
David Cameron showed honesty. I think we might welcome more honesty in the future.
Roll on the next election.
At 8:07pm on 18 Feb 2009, TheStonemason wrote:
Cameron knows enough to bind the Union rather than sinter it at the behest of Nationalists.
At 10:10am on 17 Feb 2009, Cardiffian2008 wrote about who to trust – Tories’ Cameron or “cracach welsh nationalist elitists”:
However, at least I can trust one of them to do what they think is the best for the economy... and guess what, it isnt a bunch of lunatic welsh nats
At 11:11am on 17 Feb 2009, West-Wales wrote:
There is hope that if the Tories get in we may get a referendum that addresses the core question, at least there seems to be a realistic appraisal of the out of balance political situation here in Wales.
Nick Bourne and his team do not seem to have their finger on the pulse of the real Wales. If they don't wake up they are in danger of becoming irrelevant, and yesterdays men (like Labour).
At 2:36pm on 17 Feb 2009, West-Wales wrote:
You also prattle on about Camerons education - at least he has the sort of quality education that the PM of the UK needs - would you get on a plane if the Pilots only qualification was an NVQ in cleaning public toilets.
At 2:44pm on 17 Feb 2009, lordBeddGelert wrote:
Oh thank goodness we are starting to hear the Tories talking a bit of sense again - it may almost be tempting to vote for them. If we can imagine the farming community wanting to get Labour and Plaid out...
At 2:46pm on 17 Feb 2009, lordBeddGelert wrote:
By the way, Cameron is also on the prowl to offer 'elected mayors' as a way of checking the exorbitant council tax bills some of us are having to pay. Even if you loathe his Etonian background, many are getting fed up of left wing councils throwing money down a toilet on schemes nobody has voted for.
You may hate to hear it - but Camera-on is onto something here - and for all his Blairite bull and marketing spin, he has identified the electoral g-spot of many 'middle income' voters
At 5:28pm on 17 Feb 2009, Noah_sembly wrote:
Just why are Plaid Cymru so absolutely terrified of the Tories?
I haven't voted Tory for over 20 years.
But if it has such an effect on the Plaidophiles. . . . . . .
"CallmeDave, here I come !!!!!!!!!
At 6:44pm on 17 Feb 2009, Noah_sembly wrote:
I've also voted Plaid Cymru, and I'm a damn sight sorrier I voted for those clowns than I ever will be for voting Tory.
At 11:42am on 18 Feb 2009, Noah_sembly wrote:
Good morning Tory-haters.
Amazing how you nervous Plaidophiles get so worked up about those evil child-eating Tories.
You jump up and down, screaming all manner of insults and over-egged tales of long gone Tory horrors.
So now you Plaidies, feeling more and more isolated, turn your spite and bile onto the Tory party. Well, I bet they're really running scared over that(!). Shout and rant away lads, nobody is listening. The Tories know damn well that unless Cameron is found in bed with a donkey the Tories will be in power by next year.
At 09:48am on 18 Feb 2009, Snoutsintrough wrote:
Why do the nats hate such people as Cameron because of his privileged background? Good luck to him and he does seem pretty personable and trying to be politically attractive to the whole of the electorate in UK.
Complain about this comment
Stonemason and mapexx are the SAME PERSON!!!
They/he is a Plaid Cymru researcher based in Cardiff. I have this on the highest authority.All his/their comments are trolling.
Complain about this comment
re: 35 Mapexx
"bla bla bla, There is not such thing as Wales or the Welsh, I should know because I was a census taker, bla bla bla!"
Oh you silly BritNat/Unionist conspiracy theorist! You can truely be amusing with all the denials in your life.
*Denial of the Welsh nation
*Denial of the territorial integrity of the Wales nation
*Denial of the origin of the Welsh nation.
I don't mind that you do not consider yourself Welsh, but to deny all the others who say they are, dispite evidence to the contrary!
You fit the profile of a conspiracy theorist to the letter! Largely suffering from paranoia, a conspiracy theorist is "[O]ne who "alleges a coordinated group is, or was, secretly working to commit illegal or wrongful actions, including attempting to hide the existence of the group and its activities. In notable cases the hypothesis contradicts what was, or is, represented by the mainstream explanation for historical or current events as well as the evidence that goes along with it."
*I bet you deny the landing on the moon?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_landing_denial
*And deny the Holocaust even happened!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial
I dont know what to say bud. Maybe some therapy to work on trust issues?
______________________
Anywhos, in the mean time, I have to say if I had your name I would submit your posts here in Betsan's blog as reasons why you should not be allowed anywhere near census gathering for fear of tampering with the evidence or fudging the numbers.
I dont believe you can be neutral enough, full stop. Not until after the therapy at least.
______________________
I know you deny accredited experts in the field of history and in journalism, but you even deny the creditability of the UK Office of National Statistics!
WOW! LoL
How can you work for a UK government organization that is so biased as to inflate the numbers in Wales, counter to the interests of the "Union"?
You may remember that the UK Cesus that appeared in Wales did not have the option to list one's ethnicity, though in Scotland the Scottish Parliament had the authority and gaul to insist that a Scottish ethnicity be included int he census there, as a result 88.11% claimed Scottish ethnicity (white and blac Scottish respondants)
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2005/06/22110457/05107
The Welsh assembly at the time and critics expected simular results had the option been made available.
However, when the UK ONS did ask the question later that year in the Wales Labour Force Survay they did reveal simular results, with "[t]he most important factor associated with Welsh identity was country of birth. People born in Wales were far more likely to describe their national identity as Welsh (87 per cent) compared with those born in England (15 per cent), in other UK countries (17 per cent) or outside the UK (13 per cent). "
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=448
Again, you will deny the evidence even as it is brought before you. So no surprise there.
Good luck with your treatment for that Trust thing.
Complain about this comment
Betsan, very interesting story on your expierences in the Balkins.
____________________
I did follow the link to Lenin Cymru, and agree with their observations.
The BBC has a history of over emphasising pro-Unionist rhetoric, as I observed when researching BBC stories on the Welsh census and how Wales is seen in the national media.
Though I don't agree with communist leanings of Lenin Cymru, I did find this statement significant.
"Quite naturally, the BBC could well over-emphasise this poll's importance - it has an exclusive after all. However, it should be remembered that when looked at in the context of all other opinion polls in recent years this 'No' result is rogue, every other recent poll shows a substantial backing for law-making powers amongst the Welsh public"
Complain about this comment
So...my comment about gets referred to the moderators....IMHO that more or less proves that it is true.BTW it was a comment about trolling by the anti Welsh brigade
Complain about this comment
re: 41
It is currently being referred, but that doesnt mean that it wont be published. Only that a minor point needs to be reviewed.
My earlier comment about public criticism of the BBC coverage of Wales was referred here for a few hours, likewise it was referred for a few days in another thread, though it was the exact same wording.
I have to admit, more or less most comments do get through so there must be a context that is just that little bit more concerning then the normal rhetoric here.
To be truthful, I am more suprised that the blantent anti-Welsh comments, many of which is or borders on racism, does get through.
Complain about this comment
No "anti-Welsh", only Plaid Cymru opposition.
You see -Drachenfyre-, it's only PC that would use the Assembly to split Wales from the UK, without PC the Welsh political agenda would be quite different, I would guess the Assembly would thrive alongside the other regions.
Complain about this comment
message 36......
Unlike you, whose only contact with a Muslim is buying his Daily Rag from the corner shop, I spent five years in the Cradle of Islam. Two of those years in the most virulent and rabid central region, where every male aspires to be a Matawa, and often acted as though they already were.
I witnessed the rise of the religious police, and the subsequent putting down of them, and their insane and unsocial tactics during the Gulf War, whilst you, never trod further than the end of the street where you live, to meet your ration of Islam.
Night after night of being awakened by the scream of Patriot missiles as they sped skywards, above the speed of sound, to intercept Iraqi Skuds, whilst the only missiles you dodged were, maybe, a few snowballs thrown by the kids, or Big Mac wrappers and Coke cans, thrown into your garden by passing youths..
I witnessed be-headings in the central squares in both Riyadh and Jeddah, whilst the best you could manage, was to spend a frantic couple of hours watching Wales fight for it's sporting life, on the turf of some stadium, very educational I must say.
Days on end in heats of up to 50 degrees C whilst you maybe managed an ice cream in Barry Island.
Like I said before, you haven't lived, old chum.
In future, do try to be an adult, and stop all this childish responses lark, it just makes you look the idiot you really are.
Complain about this comment
message 39,....
It will not be of any use to you, but i would like to have you know that I am about to be inducted into the work force of the organisation you have been blathering on about.
Which by the way I have NEVER disputed the findings of, what I have disputed is the truthfulness of the people when completing their census forms, a totally different matter, but one that flies over your ridiculous head.
You are acting in the exact same way as your fellow traveller, Difi or Fidi, in telling outright lies. Another 'plant' by the AWC or Plaid, stalking those who do not accept the garbage put out by the Assembly, re the future status of Wales, should they get their way.
Maybe it is you that is dual identified, for sure, Stoney and I are not one and the same, even though we may state our aims to a remarkably similar extent.
First of all I am a true social democrat, whilst I believe him to be a Tory supporter.
And being a social democrat I want to see this region ruled by a socially democratic regime, failing which it should remain as is, under the tutelage Westminster, in common on with all British regions.
Complain about this comment
43. TheStonemason wrote:
"The problem with Wales is its full of the Welsh!"
lol.
Thats basically what you say each and every post Stonemason. It really is. The Assembly is closer to the Welsh people then the UK parliament, is far more transparent then then the UK parliament, and dog gone it... I bet not one AM represents any other constituency outside of Wales!
If you can not respect the democratic will of the Welsh people as expressed in their Assembly, prehaps its time to move outside of Wales?
Complain about this comment
Some simple facts:-
The United Kingdom is a contradiction in terms!
Britain is a notion and not a Nation!
Great Britain must be a joke!
All anti-Welsh language contributors to this blog are Labour Party members/supporters.
All anti-Welsh language contributors are usually blind to their own extremist and usually racist views - to the point of alienating the most moderate non-political people.
All blogs with anti-Welsh language and anti-nationalist (read Plaid Cymru) views are co-ordinated by the Wales Labour Party HQ.
Its interesting and entertaining, and sometimes quite funny reading these blogs - but all so familiar and so, so predictable. They have lost the Welsh language debate a long time ago, and the simple debate of the right of the people of Wales to decide their own destiny rather than be dictated to by the Thatchers and Blairs of this World.
Complain about this comment
mapexx, at #45
You are perceptive, I am a Conservative voter, though would consider myself "centrist" with regard to good governance. I do not find it difficult to support good legislation no matter where it originates. I do prefer the maxim "a country governed least was governed best" (the Sage of Monticello).
The next general election could put paid to "Plaid Cymru" and its elitist separatist aspirations, it might be time when politicians can become servants of the people rather than master as the current batch of Cybernat comedians would have it.
My dog woke me and I cannot get back to sleep, it's a strange world in the early hours.
Complain about this comment
Mappex, seeing as you mention it at almost every opportunity (post 35 and 45 being only the latest) I should point out that there is nothing wrong with the census information on Welsh.
I believe you live in Torfaen. What we know from the census is that 11.11% said they spoke Welsh. You have frequently talked about the figures for speaking Welsh "fluently" but there was NO such question on the census form. However we know from the Language Use Studies of 2004-06 that only 21.8% of those people considered themselves fluent. That equates to 2.42% overall. An almost equal number said they could speak a "considerable amount" of Welsh. There's no secret about it. Read this, which has links and a table of every area in Wales:
http://syniadau.forumotion.net/language-f25/language-use-surveys-2004-2006-t40.htm#48
The census figures aren't wrong, it's just that you don't know how to handle them. You sometimes get the right result by accident: for example you mentioned that 2% to 3% spoke Welsh fluently, which happens to be correct. And if you take into account that the 11.11% is heavily weighted towards children (41.52% of the 3-15 age group spoke Welsh, but only 4.58% of the 16-64 age group) and that adults were responsible for filling in the forms, it is hardly surprising that fewer than 2.42% of those you spoke to about the forms could speak it fluently.
However because your ability to understand figures is limited (and because you can't remember the precise figures and so pluck any old figure from thin air) you assume that the census must be inaccurate. You then start blowing that misconception out of all proportion in your own mind, so that EVERY figure becomes unreliable; whether census, research or opinion poll.
But, sadly, the only thing unreliable is your ability to understand simple, straightforward truth.
Complain about this comment
-Drachenfyre- at #46
Are you suggesting that the minority Nationalists might cleanse Wales of its democratic majority, an opposition that cannot stomach an elitist Plaid Cymru.
"The problem with Wales is Plaid Cymru".
What exactly is a "Drachenfyre"?
Complain about this comment
Does it really matter who speaks Welsh, fluent or otherwise, it's irrelevant in the real world.
Plaid Cymru use the Welsh language as a political cudgel, they have no other argument, other than "hysterical historic rhetoric".
"Big fish - little pond" syndrome.
Complain about this comment
re: 51 Stonemason
A conservative "centrist" Tory says "it doesnt really matter who speaks Welsh, fluent or otherwise, it's ittelevant in the real world"
And you wonder why Plaid does so much better under a Tory government in Westminister?
You don't know Plaid histroy, otherwise you would have long ago recognized that there are indeed Plaid conservatives you could be talking to. Instead, statements such as this demonstrates how the Tory's keep sticking foot in mouth when it comes to the Welsh question.
Keep it up, we could use more statements such as this!
____________________________
Mapexx wrote:
"[Wales] should remain as is, under the tutelage Westminster, in common on with all British regions."
Wow,
just....
wow.
Its scary just how patronizing and parochial you come across.
Are you sure your not a Tory? this is right out of their Manifesto.
Prehaps next time Welsh Labour and Welsh Conservatives can form the coalition government?
By the way, did you ever respond to weather or not you believe man landed on the moon or that the holocaust happened? I wanted to strike those off the list of things Mapexx denies. lol
Complain about this comment
re: 56 Stonemason
"What is a Drachenfyre"
Drachenfire is the name of a rollercoster in Busch Gardens, Williamsburg, in Virginia. I loved the name so much I took it as my handle. lol.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Busch_Gardens_Europe
On Betsan's blogsite, I started a 'Drachenfire' account a long time ago, but was a very infrequent a poster back then and forgot my password, so started Drachenfyre instead.
Drachen, of corse, is Latin for dragon... and the root for Welsh Draig.
Stonemason... as a name... I thought had hinted to a membership to the Masons.... lol. Until you revealed that you were in fact a mason by trade. :)
Complain about this comment
message 52,...
Yes I did, but unfortunately for some reason it never appeared.
I will keep it simple.
As I know you have difficulty reading comprehensively...
Be assured those events did occur, I am not Jewish, but am extremely cognisant of the value they have added to my, and your, lifestyles.
Yes, they do tend to be very active in the financial world, which is what got to the Nazi hierarchy, but that does not decry their contribution to our everyday existence in entertainment, music, medicine, general scientific research and across many fields of human endeavour. That is why virtually all states now have a tendency to criminalise denial of the Holocaust. And so they should.
As for the moon thing, just be thankful for whatever science lies behind that venture, because most of the modern technology that you are abusing with your inane messages comes directly from the scientific input to that programme of space exploration, whether they actually landed on the moon of not is immaterial, what has come from the research and science behind it, is the key.
In regards the matter of where MY political loyalties lie, well that is for you to guess about, beyond that I will simply say,. I am my own political party, and opt for the aspects of other political party policies that fit my ideas of how this state should be run. That does NOT include allowing a bunch of rabid language nutters and petty nationalists to hive off my homeland from the rest of the UK, just to satisfy their control freakist ambitions.
Complain about this comment
View these comments in RSS