The power(s) of language
On this blog no subject divides you, enrages you, galvanises you more than the Welsh language. Well be warned: I'm returning to it on tonight's edition of Dragon's Eye.
There are no apologies for that either. I'm returning to it - not to divide and enrage you, not to avoid talking about the Welsh economy either but to start sketching a picture of what we understand the controversial Welsh Language LCO, the government's bid for power over the language, could allow them to do.
Could future measures affect the fabled fish and chip shop in Chepstow or not? Could your bank be obliged in future to offer services in Welsh or not? Could Vodaphone and Virgin Media could be brought into line with privatised utilities like BT who already offer services in Welsh?
Could, not will. Could, because when the LCO is finally published, it is just the start of what could be a very long process of scrutiny, let alone creation of future measures. The Secretary of State needed some persuading by the First Minister to publish at all. He seems to have agreed to go ahead under pressure from Cardiff and with a warning in return: get this one through scrutiny intact and I'll eat my hat. Publish and be damned ... or words to that effect at least.
What does the One Wales agreement say?
"We will be seeking enhanced legislative competence on the Welsh Language. Jointly we will work to extend the scope of the Welsh Language Legislative Competence Order included in the Assembly government's first year legislative programme, with a view to a new Assembly Measure to confirm official status for both Welsh and English, linguistic rights in the provision of services and the establishment of the post of Language Commissioner."
Let's start with extending the scope. How do you, if that is your will as a government, ring-fence some areas of the private sector and leave others untouched?
How about coming up with headings of the sectors you would plan to bring under the linguistic obligations of the 1993 Welsh Language Act? Try electricity, water, gas, railways, housing associations and the telecommunications sector for size. So Vodaphone and Virgin Media? Sounds like a yes. Fish and chip shops? No.
Add to that list any organisation providing public services in Wales and receiving more than £200,000 a year of public money.
Could that mean that a commercial venture, a private business that has received £200,000 to - for instance - open new premises in Wales, might find itself coming under future measures? It doesn't look like it, not unless it's deemed to be providing 'public services' in Wales. We understand that having customers in Wales isn't tantamount to providing public services.
What else? The power would also be there to make a measure enshrining the freedom to speak Welsh in Wales. Note that word: freedom, not right. Think of this, come the whispers from London and Cardiff, as firming up the official status of the language. Think of it as a kind of "Thomas Cook clause". In other words you would have the freedom to speak Welsh to your colleagues if you chose but customers wouldn't have the right to expect service in Welsh.
So wait a minute. What about banks? Why aren't they on that list? Why would you omit banks if they were - by any chance - to receive a massive injection of public money? On what grounds would they be outside that fence, not inside it? I gather the question has indeed been asked by some more thoughtful officials. Should we then predict a "Northern Rock codicil" to go alongside the "Thomas Cook clause"?
It could be yes to a Language Commissioner too, a Welsh Language Commissioner that is, yes to penalties for those who failed to comply with any future measures, including government departments. Does that start to look like a Welsh Language Board - or Quango for the lingo (copyright Rhodri Morgan) - with teeth?
I've already talked to Labour MPs chomping at the bit to tear to shreds this bid to transfer power to Cardiff. They point to companies strapped for cash, who will be bothered by the implications of this order "over my dead body". They will pay little heed to warnings from some parts of the party that Labour must not appear to be anti-Welsh.
The danger to Labour of publishing this LCO now?
The arguments, so far had behind closed doors, will become public. A united front from the Labour Welsh Secretary and Labour First Minister? Easy. From their elected members? Watch this space.
And what of Plaid? Would they really want to be seen to die in a ditch over the language of all issues?
One of their wisest heads was shaking his a few months ago. He was sensing a trap: one that said in big, bold letters: 'Plaid, who care about bilingual bills, not about how people can afford to pay them'.
Publication date? That's looking less like January, more like February. A long battle kicking off in the the shortest month?
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~11~RS~)
Comments
Sign in or register to comment.
Here we go.....
Complain about this comment
Didn't I hear Meri Huws ,Welsh language Board, on BBC Welsh News bemoaning the fact that the use of the Welsh language in its 'heartlands' is on the decline?
It seems that Welsh is becoming so unpopular that this LCO is designed to 'force' Welsh down the throats of the few remaining Welsh speakers.
Funny old world!
Complain about this comment
Betsan wrote ..... "What does the One Wales agreement say?"
Well for one, I didn't vote for this agreement, no one did, so take the agreement to the electorate and find out exactly what they will agree to.
It smacks of bully boy Gwynfor Evans who said, "give me what I want or I will go on hunger strike", put it to the vote.
Complain about this comment
Betsan, I am glad that you are returning directly to the subject of the Welsh language LCO as it has indeed become the proxy issue of those that want greater authority for the Assembly, and those that would pack it up for direct rule from England. I respect that you are the subject matter expert with regards to Welsh politics, and thank you for breaking it down for us. Especially given the rhetoric that has spilled out over other topics related to the LCO process. I expect this topic will also attract many posts to it, lol.
One of the most important caveats people forget about is that the LCO gives authority for the Assembly to legislate on areas of the Welsh language, not that it will necessarily legislate on 'every' aspect. The Assembly “could, not will” if it so chose.
Elected Welsh Assembly members will debate on what provisions to include in any Welsh language Assembly measures. It continues to surprise me that some in Wales do not trust fellow Welshmen (even of the same political faction) to make these decisions, instead trusting someone in another country to make these decisions. Additionally, I like how you itemized what would fall under the Welsh language LCO (utilities) and what would not (local Fish and Chips shops).
Re 2 gonoph
I fear you are taking Meri Hews statement out of context. The primary two reasons why the Welsh language has declined in the “Heartlands” are because of second home buyers and transient students in collage towns.
Second home buyers and commuter towns growing in predominantly Welsh speaking communities, with the new residents refusing to learn the Welsh language. By 2001, in Gwynedd and elsewhere, as much as a third of all homes bought there were as second homes by buyers from outside of Wales. Additionally, in Ceredigion the “decline” is facilitated by students from outside of Wales not learning the Welsh language in the collage towns there, and who now count as part of the population of Ceredigion, obscuring the permanent residential population who continue to speak Welsh as the primary language.
Saying that Welsh is “unpopular” with the majority of Welsh seems out of step to me despite what you and others in this blog write. The only growth in public schools last year was with Welsh medium schools. I remember well the reports of school closings in Wales on BBC Wales Today in 2007 and 2008, in which it was stated that- responding to local parents’ demands- more schools teaching in the Welsh language were opened last year (or are scheduled to open) then in any time in the past. Especially in South Wales.
How else to explain the growth of the Welsh language in Cardiff from 6.6 percent in 1991 to 10.9 percent in 2001, and in creditable in Rhondda Cynon Taff from 9 percent in 1991 to 12.3 percent in 2001. Clearly parents see value in having their children speak the Welsh language, even if they do not.
What they need is the support of Welsh medium media on the television, as well as a stronger Welsh language act.
Re 3 Stonemason
I don’t know if you voted for the Labour party or not, but enough of a majority did vote them into office. As part of a representative democracy, this how your representatives decided to form a government. Perhaps next time vote them out of office?
Complain about this comment
This has the potential of becoming the train crash which can derail devolution. It is totally irrelevant to the world faced by 80% of the people who live in Wales. It will confirm what Plaid has always been which is a mixture of conservative nationalists for whom the language is more important than practical politics and socialists who didn't like the establishment Labour Party. No wonder the more sensible thinkers in Plaid despair. They know that once again this raises an issue which was very effectively played by the 'no' campaign in the 1979 referendum. It also highlights the elephant in the room which no one ever talks about and that is there such an country called Wales or is it still as someone said in the 19th century a' geograhical expression'. For Nationalists what I have just written is complete rubbish if not sacrilege and not worth debating. In 1914 a shrewd American observer divide Wales into 3. At least in 1914 many Welsh people even if they spoke English were united by nonconformity. What unites a Welsh speaker today from rural North Wales and an english speaker from the valleys? Supporting a rugby team in the winter and talking about the achievements of a brilliant boxer who just happend to be born in South Wales is a pretty poor basis for arguing that people in Chepstow should have different laws form those who live in Colchester. For many in the Labour party devolution was not about nationalism it was about good governance and accountability. Labour MPs who will tear this LCO apart know that they have the full support of the majority of the Labour Party membership in Wales. At the moment there is too much gesture politics in Wales and not enough thought being given to practical solutions in an ever changing world. Look at the right to buy LCO which if it had been in place last year would have stopped just 43 people buying their council homes. Compare this with the consultation paper put out by Margaret Beckett thsi week which talks of councils in England keeping all of the council rents and capital receipts from the sale of council houses in order to start building much needed new homes.
Complain about this comment
Thank you BP for giving us an "insight" in the future in Wales. I never thought I'd say this but thank god for welsh labour M.P's who hopefully will take this thing apart. I do wonder if our beloved Rhodri wouldnt be happier in PC as he does find the english speaking majority in the Labour Party as ant his sort of "welshness". I suppose this is one way to decrease unemployment by getting more public sector expenditure spent on a matter that is pretty irrelevant to the vast majority of welsh people. Why would private sector companies invest in Wales if they are going to be loaded with this sort of nonsense as compared to locating in Bristol. Can the LCO force welsh language policies on companies located/based in england?. This LCO farce together with decision of Edwina Hart to ignore professional advice regarding Neurosurgery in South Wales leads me to the conclusion that the lunatics have taken over the assylum. Who is this Edwina Hart that she seems to have such power as to decide when to allow drugs for cancer patient (good luck to them),and also not accept professional advice without allegedly discussing even with our beloved Rhodri or her political colleagues.Am I alone in thinking the decision on cancer drugs was taken to reduce impact of Dragons Eye revelations. The decision by Charles Anthony Lynton Blair not to give our beloved Rhodri a "bag carriers"job in government in 1997 seems more prescient all the time. Never mind CUBA without the sunshine here we come.
Complain about this comment
Gwynfor Evans a "bully boy" for going on hunger strike? Ghandi a buly too was he? Non-violent protest for bullies now is it Stonemason?
Smears and delusions, mate, that's what you deal in>
Complain about this comment
The level of anti-Welsh paranoia on this blog is so unhelpful and so nasty that I really wonder if we aren't dealing with a sort of anglo-supremacist version of the Taffy Ku Klux Klan.
The intellectual substance of the arguments seems to be that because there are fewer welsh-speakers than english speakers they should have no semblance of equality. That's a really dangerous and minority-bashing viewpoint.
As for the idea that we're all 'forced' to speak it and all that loony stuff, it's so evidently untrue, and belied by any personal or collective experience.
Go on guys: get your pointy white hats off and look around you. You'll see a country with a substantial minority of people who speak another language, and who do so as a community language in large parts of that country. The history of that language has been one of survival against all the odds, all the oppression and all the marginalization. It now requires a measure that would allow those speakers - in a limited set of contexts - to use their mother tongue in their own country.
Please get past your hates and faced the reality as it is and not the trumped-up paranoid one you're feeding each other.
How depressing to see some of my fellow -English-speaking Welsh talk such drivel.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#4
Drachenfyre, some excellent responses to very biased comments.
I think Rhodri Morgan is right to be concerned that his party will be seen as anti-Welsh... its MPs from Wales - some are not Welsh - have displayed an astonishing antipathy towards the Language But then they spend most of their time in the English bubble of Westminster, full of their own importance.
What have these Labour minnows and their Party ever achieved for Wales? A moribund economy, high unemployment, a benefit culture, and absolutely no vision for a better Wales.
No-one would dispute that Wales is in a mess, and has been for decades. Who or what do we blame for it...? Some here would have us believe that the Language is the cause of all our ills, and that taking some very mild steps to protect its weak position would tip us into the abyss.
The reality is that Blair and McBroon have brought us teetering to the edge of the precipice, and we are about to plunge. Now we have some of their pathetic MPs complaining about devolving weak powers over the Welsh Language to an all-Wales democratically elected body.
Why don't they see to it that their incompetent leaders resign immediately for bringing the UK to its knees, instead of straining at a gnat. 'Me first', and only, is the intellectual level they operate on.
Drachenfyre, you are absolutely right, no self-respecting people would suffer the indignity of having others in charge of their affairs. Its happened to us for so long that some people's brains have been addled to the point they are unable to think rationally. They want Wales to be governed in perpetuity by these incompetent unionist buffoons.
Complain about this comment
Message 8....
Am I to take it then that you would give the same credence to the belief in a Flat Earth?
As I recall there are far more believe that than speak Cymraeg
The same with Esperanto.
You seem to fall into the same trap as many others, in accusing us of being anti the language.
We who constantly rail against certain matters do NOT do so against the language, we do so against the use of the language to pressurise the disinterested 80% in Wales who appear to have no attachment to it, and more to the point, do not wish to have any such attachment.
We do NOT say the language should go into demise or even decline, we just wish it was not being thrust into our daily lives where is has no relevance, nor do we wish to have it on the school curriculum in OUR state school
system.
Overall it is just too damned expensive and the cost falls on the general taxpayer of Britain, not just Wales.
The Cymro have managed to gain state funding for Ysgol Gymraeg, and many such establishments are now up and running, why are they not satisfied with that, why push for more of the same in schools outside of their direct control.
The problem for the promoters of the language is, once into the 'out of school' environment, even those in Ysgol Gymraeg invariably revert to their common tongue,.. ...English...even in strong Cymraeg speaking areas, for reasons given, time and again, on this, and other blogs.
When our kids leave school they will enter the world at large, and languages that will be relevent to that entry will be of far more use than this antiquated language, that is uselss outside of Wales, in fact even in Wales, bar for a few areas, which areas themselves are diminishing by the day, thanks to WELSH/CYMRO folk selling to
incomers.
So in retrospect, it's not a good idea for those in strong Cymraeg speaking areas complain, when it is often their own who are more or less 'inviting' English only speakers in to buy and live.
Complain about this comment
I really can't believe the anti welsh rants in some of these comments and it's obvious that these old Labour dinosaurs aren't living in the same country as I am.
Wales is one nation and you can't simply separate it into two - the 80% v 20% argument. Do you realize that children are having their education through the medium of Welsh so we will be seeing new generations of bilingual children? We can't confine the Welsh language to education, these young people will need rights to live their lives through the medium of Welsh, they need opportunities to use their language skills in their work and so on.
In terms of the private sector, we need to think about the language in the context of rights of the individual. As Lord Acton said 'The most certain test by which we judge whether a country is really free is the amount of security enjoyed by minorities.'
The private sector would not be as arrogant to think they wouldn't be included in a rights based measure such as the disabilities act would they, so what's so ghastly about the Welsh language? There were fears that businesses would turn away from Britain because of the minimum wage, but that is considered nonsense by today.
As for the Chip shop in Chepstow (if it even exists) is such Labour propoganda trying to thwart any discussion on the development of the Welsh language. Isn't it insulting for that chip shop to be branded anti-welsh? When a rights measure is introduced, there should be a matrix system based upon how many people work for a company, so that in the long term they provide welsh signs and menus so that awareness of the language is developed at every level.
I hope the Government will stand up to these companies who are bullying them into depriving the people of Wales from their right to the Welsh language.
Complain about this comment
Drachenfyre....
we are well aware that it means they 'could' not 'would' legislate but it makes little difference because in answer to your comment:
I was born and have lived in Wales my entire life and right now there is no question that I would trust a UK government far more than Plaid Cymru to look after my interests. Plaid's plans and vision of Wales is completely alien to me and I suspect 80% of the people that live in this country. Sure there are a couple of more open thinkers in there but these will be swept aside by the bully boys and their old grudges! Have you ever examined their history?
Complain about this comment
But surely small business will be looking across the pond at the 'Press 1 for English' culture and wondering how long it will be before we have 'Press 1 for Welsh, Press 2 for English, Press 3 for Polish, Press 4..etc'
A sensible way forward is required but to give an example, most contracts are governed by 'English Law', even those done in Hong Kong.
'Orange' is not going to change its name above the shop, neither is 'Mothercare' - and the internet is struggling to even cope with the British variant of English, let alone Welsh.
I am all for the Welsh language - it is my mother tongue - but we have to choose very carefully which battles we fight, or we could be back to the 'divide and conquer' strategy from London.
We could find that we win the battle for 'Welsh use in business' only to lose the war for keeping Welsh culture, and use in the home, alive.
Complain about this comment
Message 10....
.....'no self respecting people would suffer the indignity etc....'
No indeed.... that is why 80% of the people of Wales seem to prefer the status quo.
Or at least have not been given the option to express their preference.
So unless and until they are given that preference, maybe it is you who should be more circumspect in your choice of who that 80% wish to be 'ruled' by.
I suggest, if given the option, it will not be for any more of the crap from either the language mob, or that gang of self seeking, self promoting, squanderbugs down in the BAY OF PIGS.
Complain about this comment
"So vodafone and Virgin media? sounds like a yes. Fisha and chip shops? no"
Yes to vodafone and virgin Media??? Who the heck decided that?
Perhaps you should look at this quote from Rhys Jones, British Gas' corporate affairs manager:
“The energy industry is under a lot of pressure at the moment in terms of the cost it pays for the raw gas it provides to gas and electricity customers. So any costs above this occurring from any new Welsh Language Act are going to be quite high and there’s a possibility it will be passed on to the customers in the long term.”
so our mobile phone and broadband bills will go up too! and lord knows what else.
quote from
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/welsh-politics/welsh-politics-news/2008/11/11/welsh-language-services-barely-used-91466-22223901/
Complain about this comment
Re 15
"I suggest, if given the option, it will not be for any more of the crap from either the language mob, or that gang of self seeking, self promoting, squanderbugs down in the BAY OF PIGS."
Another fine example of mappy's soaring rhetorical skills there ...
daverodway's got it right in Message 8: you cannot live, let alone put together a coherent intellectual argument, on scare stories alone.
Complain about this comment
In the 70's British Manufacturing was decimated, and finally collapsed in the 80's.
UK.plc only continued to function because of North Sea Oil revenues, and later the income from the financial institutions of the City of London.
The CAP and other EU legislation has destroyed our rural industries, Hill & dairy Farming etc. and many of our little cottage industries.
Now North Sea Oil is running out - The Financial Institutions are bankrupt, UK.plc and that means Wales have no real viable income.
We face a new World where we have to earn our keep, not by taxing fat cats, but by our own skill and ingenuity to make money in a competitive market place.
Serious structural change and support is needed to seed and develop the manufacturing industries of the future.
The Recession soon to become a depression is biting, thousands of Welsh people are loosing their jobs and homes.
Now what is the Assembly doing, bringing forward the most divisive legislation they can imagine.
Legislation that sets Welshman against Welshman, will destroy much non Welsh speaking culture, important to our heritage, burden the private sector with costs and bureaucracy making it uncompetitive even within the UK.
And to run this unwanted, unnecessary piece of social engineering a whole new government department complete with its own police force to ensure compliance.
If this is the best our leaders can come up with given the current dire situation for Wales and its people - Surely its time to close down the open Asylum in the Bay, and put the residents into secure accommodation
Complain about this comment
Message 17...
I see no scare stories, but what I do see is the apparent reluctance of the devolved Assembly/WAG to allow a open and thorough public debate on the way ahead for this region.
A debate that can involve that same 80% who may, at present, show no preference, either way, for the situation as is.
Instead of which, it has set in motion a All Wales Convention, which is a total lie, even in it's title, because it does NOT encompass All of Wales in it's remit, otherwise the debate would not be held in semi-closed session, with potential participants required to register, in order to gain entry to the occasional venues.
Finally, if you find my rhetoric 'soaring' then you too must have a similar take on the happenings in Cardiff bay, or were you childishly attempting, as is usual from the Language obsessed, to try a bit of sarcasm?.
If so, as I have told someone else in your camp, that is the lowest form of wit.
Complain about this comment
Re 18
It is a certain group on here who are obsessed with this. This LCO is one piece of WAG business that has been in the pipeline for a while. The WAG can and is dealing with a whole host of other important issues - most of them to do with the present economic crisis. People just want to ignore that fact.
It's a shame West-Wales that you have started, with your final paragraph, to copy the debating style of mapexx.
However I agree with one sentence :
"We face a new World where we have to earn our keep"
- Precisely! Precisely!
Complain about this comment
The same arguments were used before the introduction of the minimum wage. And what about the disabilities act? Companies were complaining that building special doors would put them out of business. But has that happened? No. The larger community decided that would be the wise thing to do to respect those in the minority.
This is a way to solve the tensions between welsh speakers and non-welsh speakers because it would create an even space for the two 'groups', like equal citizens. Letting the current injustice carry on would create the real tension here.
It will happen, because justice will prevail in the end!
Complain about this comment
re: 16
Your post here reflects a BBC artical here, and are from the same source.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7218906.stm
However, many of these services give incomplet or sub-standard customer service in Welsh (even automated services), making use of those services difficult at best. I have worked in customer service, and if one can not speak with authority regarding specific items of business, you lose the trust of the customer. If Welsh language services can not relate the same sense of authority to their patrons in the Welsh language, then customers will use the other service.
Additionally, "The Welsh Language society's campaign officer Sioned Haf said: "Very often these companies have only one Welsh speaker in their offices to answer your call.
"If that person is away, or does not have a speciality in your field of enquiry, then you do not have a viable Welsh language service."
However, you are likely to miss a very important statement in that Welsh Water recorded a 50 percent increase in its Welsh language based services following an advertising campaign. If other companies did simular ad campaigns, or were compelled to, I am sure there would be simular results.
Contrast this with the artical of the supermarket Tesco adding Welsh language automated services at self check out lines, responding to local demands for more services in Welsh.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7636177.stm
"Felix Gummer, the Tesco's corporate affairs manager for Wales said the change allowed the supermarket to "serve communities in the best possible way".
"In response to customer demand and multilingualism in Wales all our new stores signs have been fully bilingual for some time, but today is a further step forward as we have listened to the views of customers for more services to be in Welsh."
This reflects findings in Carmarthenshire in a study commissioned by Education and Learning Wales. According to Dr Lowri Lloyd from Trinity College, "The research did prove that employers do see the value of the Welsh language with 80.5% reporting financial benefit as a result of providing bilingual services.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/2088726.stm
"The research found that Welsh language is valued by the public.
"But if a bilingual service was not apparent, then the public were not confident enough to request it," added Dr Lloyd.
Dr Lloyd's comments ring true for all business models.
Complain about this comment
actually drachenfyre I didnt want to talk about use/uptake of the welsh language services.... just the cost (quote from british gas) that will be added to everyones bill. However seeing as you brought it up:
- 50% increase on what??? very little probably
- It is wrong to use public money or force organisations to encourage people to use welsh language services. You may have noticed the adverts on tv saying 'next time ask for it in welsh/ask if they provide a welsh service' recently. This is a completely shameful use of our taxes and is pathetically attempting to create a need that was never there in the first place (Do you think we a stupid or something). This I feel is secretive social engineering that is being attempted by the language zealots in the bay... the kind often referenced by people on this blog
Also, I understand that sioned haf wants more than one welsh speaker in every department (of course he does... he wants welsh speakers to have jobs, be prosperous and have more welsh speaking children) and his example of perhaps not being able to get specialist welsh services (already its not enough for him that the customer services department at an organisation speak welsh) is relevant. However I find this objectionable if it is going to add to EVERYONE'S bill. His example also doesnt take into account that the Welsh speaker demanding services in a specialist/non standard area will likely put the phone down, go and make a cup of tea and then watch coronation street... In ENGLISH!!
Complain about this comment
Message 22....
I have just made an enquiry regarding the call for a Cymraeg speaker to answer in the government departmnet where my wife works.
The department provides limited cover in the event someone wishes to conduct business in that language.
Few do, as this region has hardly any fluency in Cymraeg, the stated level being about 3% in total.
Over the last three years, ONE person, a doctor well known for his obtusiveness in regards the use of the language, in that he insists in only communicating in Cymraeg, which of course is his right, has been the only one person to actually have used the service of the Language fluent assistant.
Others have come to the phone asking to use the service, but were found to be almost inarticulate, the result of which the conversation instantly reverted to English.
This is a health service department, which cannot afford to make any mistakes as it deals with financial matters within the NHS.
That doctor will wait until the interpreter is brought to the phone, either from a meeting, or from elsewhere on the quite expansive site. This can quite often be an inconvenience. But increased service cannot be provided, as the demand is virtually non existent, and to provide more would remove funds from the health service resulting in treatment of maybe two or three persons being lost to the cost..
There would be no callers to use the service at all, if that one guy used English, which he is known to be able to, and why I called him obtuse.
Now that may not be the case in some small areas of Wales, but despite the increased placement of Cymraeg availability in translation, instore signage and even cash points, auto tills, etc. it will be the enforcenment onto the vast number who have no use for it, that will kill it for sure.
Most of those links give results gleaned from specialist surveys taken by those with a vested interest in promoting what they surveyed for, in the first place.
Complain about this comment
Re 24
"Others have come to the phone asking to use the service, but were found to be almost inarticulate, the result of which the conversation instantly reverted to English."
Don't you just love these urban myths?!
Mind you, this is a new for me, fair play now.
Complain about this comment
An interesting titbit from the BBC news around the world website for those who would like to see the Welsh language obliterated.
Voters in the US city of Nashville have defeated a proposal to ban the use of all languages apart from English in local government business.
Supporters said it would have saved thousands in translation fees, and provided an incentive to learn English.
However, critics argued that it would discriminate against the nearly 60,000 immigrants in the city who did not speak English as their first language.
The "English First" measure was defeated by 41,752 votes to 32,144.
Had it passed, Nashville would have become the largest US city to take such a step.
But business leaders, academics and the city's mayor said it would give the city a bad reputation.
They said the move could stop people who cannot read or write English from seeking vital help from social welfare agencies run by the city authorities.
Nashville has a big Hispanic population, and the largest community of Kurdish Americans in the US - about 11,000 - as well as immigrants from South East Asia, the Middle East and Africa.
The charter amendment was put forward by city councillor Eric Crafton, who collected enough signatures to force a referendum on the issue.
The United States does not have an official language at the federal level.
Thirty states, including Tennessee, and at least a dozen cities have declared English their official language, according to the ProEnglish advocacy group.
Complain about this comment
PS to message 24....
Having re-read over those links in
message 22, I note that the dates of two were at either end of 2008, the other one was dated 2002.
So why are you posting links to items of such and age?
They hardly forward the case for the take up of the language, do they?
Complain about this comment
Fidafydd..... that is not an urban myth
You cant have it both ways! although coming from the Plaid camp i cant blaim you for trying and subsequently expecting to be handed both on a plate!
you cant claim there is a huge uptake in Welsh yet everybody is immediately fluent so this common (and very well known to us) switching back and forth to english for the difficult bits is an 'urban myth'
Complain about this comment
alfsplace.... interesting titbit.
However, i would hope you would not find anyone here proposing a ban on the use of Welsh by Local Government in Wales.
Complain about this comment
Message 25, ...
So you don't consider the immense numbers claimed for the take up of the language as 'urban myths' then?
Look to your laurels chum, I can substantiate MY UM's can you for yours, without quoting 'research' done on behalf of, and by promoters of the language.
Just in case you did not understand why I said 'inarticulate', the person who has the unenviable task of fielding the callers who start out in Cymraeg and then revert to English, it is because, she informs me, that when they start off, it's, "Bora da this and that" but as soon as the conversation turns to matters they have themselves raised, it become apparent they cannot match her fluency, or speak in the required technical or finacial terms necessary to complete the conversation.
Effectively, they prove to be incompetant in their 'own native language'.
Now if you think that an urban myth, try speaking to some of those who have to face up to this tripe every day, across the whole gamut of Welsh business's, and public service departments.
Then, when you see I am not reciting mythology, come back with your abject apology for making such a a veiled accusation.
Complain about this comment
Cardiffian2008
Judging by a lot of the remarks I wouldn't be surprised.
Oh and by the way if you weren't so much against the language you may have realised Sioned is a girls name, tut tut.
Complain about this comment
Message 26....
I read your message carefully, but could not detect a viewpoint of your own. So what are you saying?
Is it that Cymraeg therefore should be....whatever?
Or do you find it intolerable that the City of Nashville found it necessary to call such a referendum
When considering the fact that most, if not all who speak foreign languages in that city, probably, out of self interest, voted against the motion, thereby slewing the vote, actually arrived in the city as economic migrants, do you not think it only right they take to the language of their adoptive city, state and country?
They opted to move to an English speaking region, so why the perceived problems? IF they feel bad about the potential that they may not be able to get along in an English speaking environment, they can always do the obvious, and go back where they came from. OR if that is not an option, then learn English opr get an English speaker to act on their behalf. Simple really.
Talk about making trouble for the future. Phew!
Complain about this comment
Re 30
"Effectively, they prove to be incompetant in their 'own native language'."
- wonderful!
Nothing veiled, no apology. We've heard the one about walking into a pub ... blah blah blah for so long now ...
Complain about this comment
mapexx
I think if you were a bit more understanding you may find that those you refer to as being incompetant are probably the older generation, whom while being brought up in the Welsh language at home were forced to go to English schools for their education as there were no Welsh schools for them to attend. Don't forget this is when Welsh was more dominant in our communities
Hence their lack of complete fluency and confidence in what is esentialy their first language.
There is also the fact because of the then schooling system, the Welsh language and those who spoke it were always made out to be inferior, believe that is fact.
It is exactly the same today if you have a family where one parent is Welsh speaking and the other is English speaking, it is 99% certain the language used in the home will be English, even when the children are educated through the Welsh language. It has happened in our home. Even though I can now speak Welsh it is impossible for our children to speak Welsh with us because they think in English with us and it is the same with my wife and myself.
Therfore a little humility and understanding may go a long way
Complain about this comment
Re 32
Mapexx,
You said :
"They opted to move to an English speaking region, so why the perceived problems? IF they feel bad about the potential that they may not be able to get along in an English speaking environment, they can always do the obvious, and go back where they came from. OR if that is not an option, then learn English opr get an English speaker to act on their behalf. Simple really."
Is this your philosophy for those moving into Welsh speaking areas in Wales as well?
Complain about this comment
message 32
It wasn't my viewpoint if you read it....
In the same light are you saying that all those English people who move into predominately Welsh speaking areas and don't learn the Welsh language shouldn't complain, but go back to England where they came from, or if that is not an option get a welsh speaker to act on their behalf. Thats good more Welsh speaking jobs then great. I'm all for it can we start a campaign.
Talk about making trouble for the future. Phew!!!
Complain about this comment
Re Alfsplace message no. 31
Look pal.... dont associate me not knowing that sioned is a girl's name with hatred of the language. A name is a name no matter what language its origin... if I'd ever heard it before I'd know to which gender it belongs. It was a innocent mistake that didnt deserve your attack! You language zealots can be your own worst enemy sometimes!
Now seeing as you attacked me... I should think it speaks volumes that for all my years living along the south coast of Wales and watching Welsh tv, I did not know that sioned was a girls name! Just shows how relevant and integrated the Welsh language society and some of its members are with the rest of us living in Wales!
Complain about this comment
How strange that the bash Wales and Welsh brigade all share the same assumption...that they form an 80% majority. In reality they are a small vociferous bunch of obsessives who exist largely in the letters pages of the press, and lurk around the web looking for opportunities to be obnoxious to their countrymen and negative about the homeland they despise. Long discredited arguments over the old familiar signatures. Bilingual Wales meanwhile has moved on.
Complain about this comment
At #4 -Drachenfyre- wrote .....
"I don?t know if you voted for the Labour party or not, but enough of a majority did vote them into office. As part of a representative democracy, this how your representatives decided to form a government. Perhaps next time vote them out of office?"
..... in response to my #3
No, I didn't vote for Labour, neither did I vote for Plaid, in addition I did not vote for the "One Wales agreement", no one could, it hadn't been proposed at the time of the election, I think it is deceitful representative democracy .
The "One Wales agreement" is a constitutional nightmare for England and Wales because it proposes changes to our constitution without considering any negative effect it would have on our shared constitution. In effect it drives a wedge into our shared inheritance with England, and the wedge in this instance is the Welsh Language LCO.
Until the "English Question" is resolved, any LCO that cannot be evenly applied to both England and Wales should be rejected by our AM's. The Welsh Language LCO? it should be discarded not because it relates to the Welsh language, but because it doesn't fit into the constitution which is shared by all the people of England and Wales.
Complain about this comment
Cardiffian2008
I appologise for hurting your sensetive feelings so much. I was trying to be humourous, it obviously didn't work.
Though, with your little outburst I think your true feelings about the language shone through. I don't think I mentioned anything about your hating the Welsh language, a Freudian slip on your behalf perhapes .
What I was trying to say perhapes clumsily is that if you and all those who are not for it tried to understand the feeling for the Welsh language and those who speak it and stand up for it enthusiasticly, which doesn't make us an automatic Zealot as you called me.
We might find Wales is a better and greater Country for it.
Complain about this comment
How strange that you dont examine the REAL content of our argument nor take account of the fact that none of us dislike the language when it stands alone seperated from politics and is not utilised (by some... we all know who they are) as adivisive political tool.
Also how strange that you have not posted before yet have a very familiar writing style and all choice phrases.
Complain about this comment
Cardiffian - Referring to your post where the welsh speaker would put the phone down, make a cup of tea and then watch Coronation Street...IN ENGLISH:
Firstly, as an IT Professional the use of capitals is considered very rude and agressive. Please show some decorum.
Secondly, what other language would you expect an English soap opera filmed on location in English to be in? That's one of the worst points I've ever heard on here.
Mapexx, you confuse me totally. You claim not to want Welsh forced on you and that it is not wanted - read the English signs/text/bill and ignore the welsh bit. As you probably do now in certain circumstances. If the sight of Welsh is so abhorent leave the country or unlearn the welsh you've claimed to have learnt.
Furthermore you say your wife is fluent in Welsh, what does she think of your statements that welsh is not wanted in your life or in the schools your children went to?
My opinions on this LCO I will keep to myself but the comments on this blog show a disgusting level of intolerance toward a language that has an innate right to be spoken on this island we call Britain, for it is the natural tongue of the island.
I also find the self-righteous, pompous, demands of the unionists to see or hear no welsh in their little corner of the land to be the most skin crawling, pathetic diatribes I've ever read.
Granted, there's a time and a place for the LCO and now is probably not it but come on lads, you're behaving like barbarians.
Complain about this comment
I am not a Welsh speaker. But I see that as my failing, my laziness, my lack of application, my fault. I am embarassed.
That isn't how a lot of other people react. Some of the comments here are very similar to what I hear around my workplace. Viscious stuff.
Where does this violent hatred for the Language come from?
Is it because the Imperial Welsh imposed their language on other peoples and beat their native tongues out of them? No, because that was the English who did that.
Is it because non-speakers have been denied job opportunities? No, because when you actually challenge the vitriol no-one can actually remember any individual being so denied.
Is it because no other country in the world "subjects" its people to the horrors of bilinguilism? No, because plenty of countries happily and casually embrace two (or more) languages.
And does bilinguilism hold back such countries? Ask the Swiss - they don't seem to be suffering too much.
Is it because of the expense - something which is often stated? No, it isn't. The reason cost is often stated is because it is an easy, lazy argument. One that people fall for. What you tend to find is that the people who are so concerned about expenditure on Welsh aren't in the tiniest bit concerned about expenditure on anything else. I would have more sympathy if Welsh was on a long list, somewhere behind foreign wars and financial props for corrupt bankers.
So what is one left with as a reason (or excuse) for the hatred? Perhaps the responsibility lies with one of the strongest emotions around - guilt. Collective guilt for Welsh children being beaten in the playground for speaking their mother tongue. Individual guilt for the lazyness in not learning a native language whilst most of Europe speaks at least one foreign language.
Or is it just plain scapegoating? We've all got problems, let's blame the Welsh language for them! After all, it's best to scapegoat something that can't fight back.
Complain about this comment
Toxic is an overused word in this context - but I can think of nothing more suitable.
There can be no winners and the debate itself will create division and rancour.
Both sides appeal to reason and logic but both sides are unable to see any value in the opposing argument.
For Plaid the ground is treacherous - Plaid will be seen as caring more about language than good government, a one trick pony. The votes they gained with the failure of Labours NHS policies will leach away, as will some of their own supporters. They will end up a discredited rump.
For Labour - already suffering from the Brown effect, internal strife and division.
For the Tories and LibDems - they will be caught in the cross fire on the Senedd floor. Defending their Welsh credentials against accusations of being English traitors or even Unionists.
But in the real World they will get massive public support, however you cut the cake - they will be the next Government.
For the public - at first little interest.
Council Taxes are already rising, the economy is in decline, it is obvious that not only are both Assembly and Council spending unsustainable, the spectre of increased costs for utilities and services because of Assembly Policies, will be a real issue.
What then.
The public will take an interest, their view will not be supportive of the Assembly, Continuation of the Devolution experiment will be high profile despite media attemps to manipulate opinion.
Is there a way out - yes of course.
The Assembly needs to cancel the Language LCO NOW -
Shut down the WLB and replace it with a less confrontational organisation.
Revise the 1993 WL Act.
Make it cheaper and more user friendly, a better instrument to rebuild the Welsh Language without the division and alienation it currently engenders.
Otherwise - meet you on the barricades mate.
Complain about this comment
apologies to mapexx i may have incorrectly accused him of learning welsh, i may have been reading another comment and got confused.
Complain about this comment
I believe that the Welsh language is great for culture but bad news for business.
I have entrusted the education of my children to the Welsh language - however would have strong mis-givings if the language was imposed upon their economic future.
I would ask that our policy makers recognise the business world in Wales has enough to deal with this without further impositions. If there is demand for such services then the market will respond accordingly - as it undoubtedly has already in niche areas.
Complain about this comment
Sorry ilovegray but you may not be seeing the new generation of bilingual children that you refer to in great numbers. The Cwricwlwm Cymraeg is having an adverse effect in the secondary school in which I work, and the children are turning against the Welsh language in droves. It's the same old oft-repeated tale of rebellion against things being forced upon you.
Complain about this comment
Messages 35 & 38....
35..
There is a difference between Wales and Nashville Tennessee. Not very obvious I must say, so I will pass the info to you here and now...
Nashville has an Immigrant population of some 60 thousands. Which amounts to approximately 10% of the city total.
The major language of Nashville is English.
Do the numbers start to come clear?
I suppose not, so I will proceed..
Wales has a population approaching 3 millions. of whom approximately 10% speak Cymraeg, (if the count is as accurate as is declared). i.e. 300,000
Figures still not becoming clear?
Approximately 2.4 MILLIONS therefore do not speak the language, but are declared to be English speaking. (as are the Cymraeg speakers, unlike the immigrants to Nashville)
So English is actually the language of approximately 3 millions in Wales, is it not?
Any clearer now?
The final point being, the Welsh who speak English only,, now read this very carefully....ARE NOT ECONOMIC MIGRANTS.. but to all intents and purposes they are 'natives' of the region. Born here, reside here or legally living here, either because they like it, rent here, or own a property here.
They may have come from another REGION of the UK, or even with legal UK citizenship, from overseas, or even with European legality, from a member state within the Eurozone.
I think that should tell you something about the difference between Wales and Nashville, if not, then I suggest a short sharp course in demographics.
Message 38...
Are you '38' another one who cannot read and understand?
I see very few who actually state, categorically, that the questionable 80% all support one side, or the other.
What we do, invariably, say is, in political terms no one knows the feelings, intentions or political leanings of that 80%, and until a proper mandate is sought that manages to raise the interest of that 80%, we will not tolerate the Cymraeg language side claiming more than they are entitled to.
Assumptions CAN be made for the 80%. based on the fact they hardly ever make any sort of comment about their Welshness, they tend to say nothing at all, which to anyone with an eye to see it, says a big... 'we couldn't give a toss'.
THAT IS WHY IT IS OFTEN TAKEN THAT THE 80% would favour the anti AssemblyWAG stance.
Not definite I accept, but far more likely that, than opting for something they have never shown any interest in, to the present time..
Their indifference speaks volumes for the way their votes would be likely to go.
If that 80% ARE ever canvassed for their intentions, then it should be done on an open public forum, not by stealthy means under the auspices of an Assembly/WAG formed Convention, which as I have said elsewhere, is not open to the general public, in the manner it should be
The AWC is effectively a closed shop to virtually the whole of Wales, and is seen by many as a means for the Assembly to generate a 'yes' vote in favour of more powers, in any forthcoming referendum.
This should be openly debated on TV, in the newspapers and the radio, with full access to those who strenuously oppose such a move, in fact many would wish to have the Assembly and WAG done away with, but are getting NO possibilty for that to occur, under the present set of circumstances.
The AWC has been seen for what it is, a forum in which the chair and his fellows on the top table present loaded answers to set questions, questions set by the way, by the Assembly/WAG.
Complain about this comment
message 45....
No apology required, though you are correct, I do not speak Cymraeg.
I prefer to live my life utilising the language that the world sees fit to opt for, in every walk of life....which of course is English
My wife also does not speak Cymraeg. So that is another slight mistake on your part.
But to clear up any misunderstanding...both of my eldest grandchildren went through a complete Cymraeg education, and have never used the language since the day they walked through the Ysgol gates for the last time. Nor do any of their peers that they are still in touch with.
They are now both over 30 yrs of age.
If you find that a sad state of affairs, then so be it. I do not, their mother should never have put them through it in the first place, it was done so she could have the whole day to herself, with no kids about from 6-30 am to 6-30 pm five days a week.
Unfortunately, I was working overseas when this took place, so any input from me could not be made at the time.
Complain about this comment
alfsplace re:message 40
attempted humour or not it was still an unprovoked attack when i'd just commended you for putting forward interesting info and also stressed my support for the provision of welsh language services by Local government!
Furthermore, yes thank you I am very much aware that there are many many non zealous welsh speakers out there going about there daily lives and occasionally sticking up for the language without exploiting it as a political tool, to further independence, or to create division! However I very much doubt they will be here furiously typing away on a welsh politics blog! In fact of that i can be sure! All I am likely to find here is self styled and self serving politicos and language zealots claiming to speak for Wales through tunnel vision.
Puredrivel message 40:
My point was only to counter the incessant demands of Miss Sioned (which as i now know is a lovely girls name)Haf. I acknowledge it was a little pointless. However,as i said, our gas bills are to go up (referenced and proven in case you missed it) because of Welsh service provision and then go up further still because sioned already wants a welsh speaker in every department capable of dealing with the most specialist query. Blunt it may be but the truth is all welsh speakers can speak english so could you not (given we're in the middle of a massive depression) be a little bit more reasonable with your demands. I'm sure there is a happy medium but as mappex touched upon... technical queries in many cases end up drifitng into english .
Complain about this comment
Re 48
You claim to have answered Message 35 - no such luck!
In a very lengthy list this has to be the most incredible example of ignoring the arguments set against you, or employing flawed logic. The other possibility, of course, is that you just don't understand. The more I hear from you - with your rants and abuse of those who dare disagree with your point of view (the British way I suppose!) - the more I think that might well be the case.
And now Quornby is the latest person you accuse of not being able to read. Quite amazing.
Complain about this comment
Question - did anyone see Betsan's report on Dragon's Eye last night.
I've been trying to get it on the Web but no joy.
Complain about this comment
West-Wales..Spot on
Another thing is coming through here.
References to Wales as a Country.
It is not, the country of which Wales is a part is The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
Wales is a Nation state (think of the six nations rugby) and has an administration to fit that description.
In due course, the worth and ability of the represtatives in the Welsh Assembly in Cardiff bay will mature. In the meantime they are evolving slowly, too slowly sometimes and learning to discuss within their competances,( personal and legal) is one thing that they need to come to grips with sooner rather than later.
Complain about this comment
West-Wales, your #52
Betsan is at the following link inside the quotes.
"http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00h5m8b/Dragons_Eye_22_01_2009/"
She comes on at about 20 minutes.
"Meri Huws" Chair of the Welsh Language Board is also on at about 12 minutes.
Complain about this comment
As a virgin poster all I can say is what a load of old waffle so many write on this board - and the same names too; hardly a perfect sample of public opinion. Entrenched in bigotry and unwilling to see the other point of view. Mind you, Betsan`s first three words - "on this blog" - tells you a lot. Most people I know don`t really care either way. They have more importand things to worry about.
The vehemently anti-Welsh comments have their basis in fear of the unknown. Think how you feel at the busstop standing next to people speaking in Polish or Urdu ("what are they saying about me?"). I suspect some of it also comes from those not born within these borders. Personally I don`t see how the attitude of English people moving to Wales can be any different to those who move anywhere else outside England and look at how so many of them expect the locals to adapt to their way of life and thinking. Nothing opens your eyes to English patronisation of the Welsh like moving here and seeing it for yourself - just as I did.
yobryday I think you are right. I, too put my own children through Welsh medium education and proud to have done so. But forcing businesses to adopt Welsh language policies is going to blow up in our faces. Just as compulsory Welsh in English schools is despised by so many. That would suit so many in Welsh Labour; it couldn`t possibly be a hidden agenda could it?
Complain about this comment
Looking on as an outsider, I am totally amazed as to why so many of you in Wales seem to be so averse to the Welsh language. How many people in England would you find, for instance, railing with such venom against the English language? Or, for that matter, Scots railing against the Scots tongue or Gaelic?
Language is what makes us - and the greater one's exposure to different languages the more one makes of oneself. In Wales, you have a ready-made alternative to English for such cultural growth. In England - and in many parts of Scotland - that is not an option. Frankly, some of you just don't realise how lucky you are to have the Welsh language. It makes the rest of us rather envious. Indeed, perhaps some serious thought should be given to making Welsh the natural second laguage taught in English secondary schools near the border.
As for this "country" and "nation" nonsense, I don't buy it. To argue the difference is semantics. The important thing is to bring government as close as you can to the people. Setting up the Welsh Assembly was a somewhat tentative move in that direction: the fact that it doesn't even have the power to legislate over language issues shows just how tentative it was. It's high time fot the Assembly to be abolished and replaced by something similar to Holyrood - a proper parliament.
Complain about this comment
Guys - I'm a welshman living in London and frankly, this argument couldn't be more irrelevant.
Do you think people in the wider UK/EU/International community care about the welsh language? No. Does the language - or frankly, even Wales - come up in coversations about business? No. Will international companies, compelled to absorb extra cost for needless translation stay in Wales? Of course they wont.
For goodness sake, stop faffing around with such a pointless argument. A pitiful proportion of the Welsh population speak welsh, hardly any outside the North/West can be bothered to learn it. Focus on what matters - staying competitive in an increasingly globalised and cut-throat market.
If Wales doesn't step up to the mark, it will lose out. To be honest, it probably already has.
Complain about this comment
Message 51,...
...the reply should have been to message 36, sorry for the incorrect numbering.
now for message 35....
No that is NOT my philosophy, as it cannot possibly apply to those living in Wales, for the reasons given.
If anything it is the exact reverse of the Welsh/English situation.
But I cannot expect you to understand it by the looks of things., it seems you yourself cannot get your responses to the correct message. MY language and my wifes etc.
As for the reply to message 38, if people will insist on reading what is NOT there, then all they can expect is to be challenged, and if necessary, castigated for their lack of attention.
Complain about this comment
Re 58
For the second time now you have thrown false accusations at me - I haven't mentioned your language or wife!!!
And what you now claim is your answer to 35 is incoherent ...
Complain about this comment
Think Quornby had it right at point 38: the Welsh-language bashers on this page are just the Welsh equivalent of the anti-semitic jew - they don't just hate the language, they have an inferiority complex about their welshness per se. so they latch onto the most obvious symbol of welshness - the language.
That's one of the first things that tourists and visitors see and notice first when they come to Wales. The bilingual signs.
At the end of the day thousands of idealistic youngsters quite literally went to jail to ensure that the Welsh language had the same legal status as English. Obviously the anti-welsh dinousaurs were quite happy to see Henry VIII's legislation remain in place!
If you people are so passionate about your rights being eroded then go out and protest. Get yourself arrested and get media coverage for your cause! And then we'll see you for what you are - a tiny minority, totally unrepresentative of the mythical 80% that you've somehow arrogated yourselves the right to speak for.
Complain about this comment
I agree with those who are commenting that this focus on the Welsh language is a big distraction.
Except that I don't actually believe that the "ultra-competitive world" exists. It is a fantasy created to make us all fearful and to work harder for less.
And I also see the "distraction" differently. The distraction comes from those who seek to destroy the Welsh language. It is they who are making life difficult.
And all because they think that people speaking a language they can't be arsed to learn are talking about them!
What self-importance!
Complain about this comment
Don't be such a drama queen Draig32.
We 'Welsh-bashers' (your words) simply object to an old worn out language being forced upon an unwilling majority.
Your hysterical description of legitimate objectors to the LCO and its implications as antisemitic jews is beyond belief.
These type of crude insults do your cause no good at all.
We, who have no use, no wish to use and refuse to use Welsh are constantly accused of racism, bigotry and all sorts of other nasty things.
Why don't you just leave us, the vast majority, alone and let us get on with our lives unhindered by a language that is well past its sell-by date.
If you wish to promote the use of Welsh, please feel free to do so but please don't insult those who have a different point of view.
You refer to "thousands of idealistic youngsters" who were sent to jail for clearly criminal activity in order to further their 'cause'.
Well Draig32, I'm sorry but the vast majority of us have no wish to engage in criminal activity and prefer to discuss our differences in a civilised and orderly manner.
Behave yourself.
Complain about this comment
I really hate how some people think they have a right to speak on my behalf. I'm part of this so called 80% (where did you get that figure from? Unware of stats are we?). I'm an English speaker, but I'm also Welsh. What distinguishes us from others; well our culture and language. A language which is much older than English and has survived so much subjugation. We have seen it decline right down from almost 100%-18%. Guess what? It starts to rise, to 19%, then guestimates in 2001 of 21% and stats show guestimates of over 25% now. These stats also show that children between 4 and 16, over 50% speak it, either as a first or second language; also with the number of adult learners rising every year. I remember when I was a kid people were against the language, so don't think kids who are against the language is a new craze.
I really despise those that say it is forced down our throats. Have they not noticed that it is English being forced down our throats? Hundreds of years of subjugation, children being cained for speaking the language, road signs, shops, businesses all in English. It's really annoying. Why can't we live in a society where everyone is equal; but no you get these xenophobic, anglophone people who don't think Welsh speakers are worthy to be equal and speak the natural language of the land. Do you see Germans, Swiss, Belgians, etc, complaining about bilingual signs? In some states they have more than two languages!
Some are complaining that utility companies shouldn't have to offer bilingualism; well I'm sorry, did your bills not go up? Was that anything to do with the language? No. Are these companies not making millions of pounds in profit? Yes. How can they justify not changing their policies when little companies in North and West Wales can afford to do this and accomodate English speakers?
How can people say it's costly to make Welsh equal, but then be ok with the Iraq war, nuclear weapons, bailing out banks that profitted from customers, Millenium Dome, Wembley (Millenium Stadium mostly financed by private), the London Olympics (Wales losing much funding) and Heathrow, to name but a few. It's not ok to pass a law on the language, but it's ok to legistlate on a new 10p tax on the poor??? The language would be a major tourist attraction as it seperates our culture from others, if we market it properly. We have suffered under this union, especially Tories and Labour and yet you still vote for them and slam smaller parties that have not been in power or are just starting out in government; where's the other option. Also the Assembly is not a waste of money in my view, but the Monarchy is (£20million on one visit to Canada during jubiliee) and the House of Lords and all those expensive MPs in Westminister. We need to get a proper Parliament, with stronger powers, including broadcasting, policing and the CJS. The police chiefs all agree with this, but it's the MPs fearing their London jobs that are stopping this.
Talking about people who can not speak grammatically correct, how about the English speakers in call centre, oh wait and the call centres abroad, bet you don't complain about them now do you...
*49 nice to see that you think your daughter is incompetant in making her own choices; where did she get that from?
*57 nice for you to try and think that this has anything to do with you, you wont notice any impact as you're more or less a new English citizen. You state the world doesn't care about Welsh, well nor do they about Polish, German, French, etc; just because English is the business language does not mean we have to lose our identity as a seperate culture; no other nations are willing to give up theres.
Here's some links for you xenophobes and before you ask, I'm half English and again an English speaker. Good day!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_language
http://www.workingin-uk.com/info/798
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/CCI/nugget.asp?ID=447
http://www.byig-wlb.org.uk/English/welshlanguage/Pages/WhoaretheWelshspeakersWheredotheylive.aspx
Complain about this comment
I really hate how some people think they have a right to speak on my behalf. I'm part of this so called 80% (where did you get that figure from? Unware of stats are we?). I'm an English speaker, but I'm also Welsh. What distinguishes us from others; well our culture and language. A language which is much older than English and has survived so much subjugation. We have seen it decline right down from almost 100%-18%. Guess what? It starts to rise, to 19%, then guestimates in 2001 of 21% and stats show guestimates of over 25% now. These stats also show that children between 4 and 16, over 50% speak it, either as a first or second language; also with the number of adult learners rising every year. I remember when I was a kid people were against the language, so don't think kids who are against the language is a new craze.
I really despise those that say it is forced down our throats. Have they not noticed that it is English being forced down our throats? Hundreds of years of subjugation, children being cained for speaking the language, road signs, shops, businesses all in English. It's really annoying. Why can't we live in a society where everyone is equal; but no you get these xenophobic, anglophone people who don't think Welsh speakers are worthy to be equal and speak the natural language of the land. Do you see Germans, Swiss, Belgians, etc, complaining about bilingual signs? In some states they have more than two languages!
Complain about this comment
Some are complaining that utility companies shouldn't have to offer bilingualism; well I'm sorry, did your bills not go up? Was that anything to do with the language? No. Are these companies not making millions of pounds in profit? Yes. How can they justify not changing their policies when little companies in North and West Wales can afford to do this and accomodate English speakers?
How can people say it's costly to make Welsh equal, but then be ok with the Iraq war, nuclear weapons, bailing out banks that profitted from customers, Millenium Dome, Wembley (Millenium Stadium mostly financed by private), the London Olympics (Wales losing much funding) and Heathrow, to name but a few. It's not ok to pass a law on the language, but it's ok to legistlate on a new 10p tax on the poor??? The language would be a major tourist attraction as it seperates our culture from others, if we market it properly. We have suffered under this union, especially Tories and Labour and yet you still vote for them and slam smaller parties that have not been in power or are just starting out in government; where's the other option. Also the Assembly is not a waste of money in my view, but the Monarchy is (£20million on one visit to Canada during jubiliee) and the House of Lords and all those expensive MPs in Westminister. We need to get a proper Parliament, with stronger powers, including broadcasting, policing and the CJS. The police chiefs all agree with this, but it's the MPs fearing their London jobs that are stopping this.
Talking about people who can not speak grammatically correct, how about the English speakers in call centre, oh wait and the call centres abroad, bet you don't complain about them now do you...
*49 nice to see that you think your daughter is incompetant in making her own choices; where did she get that from?
*57 nice for you to try and think that this has anything to do with you, you wont notice any impact as you're more or less a new English citizen. You state the world doesn't care about Welsh, well nor do they about Polish, German, French, etc; just because English is the business language does not mean we have to lose our identity as a seperate culture; no other nations are willing to give up theres.
Here's some links for you xenophobes and before you ask, I'm half English and again an English speaker. Good day!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_language
http://www.workingin-uk.com/info/798
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/CCI/nugget.asp?ID=447
http://www.byig-wlb.org.uk/English/welshlanguage/Pages/WhoaretheWelshspeakersWheredotheylive.aspx
Complain about this comment
Cymro82, not speaking on your behalf, your second link has in the final paragraph the following statement .....
"The future for Welsh has to be uncertain to some degree, as English continues to dominate through the influence of the media. Economic considerations will always mean that the learning and use of English must take priority."
No xenophobia here, our priority is with the future, and the future is bright not dimmed by a minority language in decline, the words of "Meri Huws" Chair of the Welsh Language Board not mine, the future is a future where my descendants are not forced to live a theme park existence in poverty, where learning at school equips the children for a future of exciting opportunities anywhere in the world.
Complain about this comment
The Welsh language LCO will not make any difference whatsoever to the survival of Welsh. That will depend on the attitude of individuals. Look at the complete failure in the Irish Republic of attempts to make Ireland bilingual despite over 80 years of independence. Talk to people who went to school in the Republic and they will tell you that they often hated Gaellic lessons. Wales isn't a bilingual country even if it has individuals who are bilingual. Many of those however who put on the census form that they speak Welsh often speak it badly or even know only a few words. If grammatically correct Welsh was used on the media ,for example, it would be interesting to find out how many viewers or listeners would undrstand what is going on. A great deal is often made of the growth of bilingual education in South Wales. What is often forgotten is that the language of the playground is still English. The majority still sit Welsh GCSE as a foreign language even though they have been educated through the medium of Welsh for over 13 years in some cases. It would be interesting if a programme was produced on those children who went to Rhydfelin for example in the 1960s and left at 15 or 16 to find out what the standard of their Welsh today actually is. All a Welsh language LCO will do is create in the public sector a similar situation to that in pre 1914 Austria Hungary where being able to speak a certain langauge was often a qualification for employment by the state. The public sector will be forced to go down this route in order to save costs. As for the private sector the bottom line will always be profit and they will pass any extra costs on to the consumer. As I said in my earlier post this is the train crash that was waiting to happen.
Complain about this comment
I wish we could find some settlement regarding the language and move on. It dominates all that defines Welshness , Ive been told on a few occasions that someone is 'more welsh' because they speak Welsh , divisive twaddle ! It soon degrades into a childish argument .
All the time this goes on we are not concentrating on other issues , quality of life , health , wealth .
At this point I usually get accused of not taking Welsh (language) seriously , and we get back into the same arguments .
The sad thing is I do not see an end in sight . I see a future of belly button gazing and squabbling over the language .
Complain about this comment
As a non Welsh speaking Welshman, I welcome any move to giving both languages equal rights in Wales. People have the right to do business in Welsh or English with public bodies. Thanks to Thatcher large sections of what were public bodies are now privatised, it should be our right to conduct our business with these organisations in either language and they should have an obligation to provide their services in Welsh or English. I don't think anyone seriously disputes this. Yes there are problems with some small community councils, but Wales is a bilingual country, if some community councils struggle when they get requests for literature in Welsh then I would suggest that each unitary authority should have a translation department and they should make available this free to these small authorities.
The bone of contention seems to be other areas of private business. I would say that the approach of designating certain bodies - such as supermarkets, housing associations, utilities - such as telecomunications as bodies that should provide services throught he medium of Welsh would be a good idea.
However we are not even there yet. The National Assembly for Wales does not yet have any primary legislative power over issues of Language. The request for power over such a basic issue as the culture of a nation is regarded just about every where else as the first item to be devolved. Its remarkable that this is seen as an issue at all. I would suggest that there is a general good will to the language out there, this only becomes endangered when wild and reckless talk about excluding English speakers is thrown about by people intent on scaring people. Small businesses are never going to be compelled to provide services, but Welsh people should have the right in their own country to conduct their business with large organisations, whether private or public in Welsh or English. That is a basic human right. Employees should have the right to talk to each other in English and Welsh and employers should be forbidden by law from prohibiting this. Both languages should have the dignity and respect of the state.
Complain about this comment
Oil on troubled waters from Lyn_Thomas .....
Those who speak against forthcoming Welsh Language LCO are labelled "wild and reckless".
I found the following recommendation made by Welsh Language Board following a failed complaint made against "The Arts Council of Wales" who abolished "Dyfed Dance's" revenue grant.
"7.1 As the relocation of funding has not yet come to an end, the Board recommends that ACW should provide a progress report to the Board outlining developments in the field of dance in Mid and West Wales, explaining to the Board in which ways the linguistic requirements of the provision were considered when funding was relocated. In addition a meeting between the Board and appropriate officers from within ACW should be held within three months of the date of this report to discuss the progress report. "
The Quango is now demanding explanations as to how funding and linguistic issues are measured, democracy in action?
Soon such questions will be put to private business, 200,000 pounds of government money will be the threshold, above that and the likes of "Meri Huws" gets involved.
How much time before the English speaking carpenter, working for a local company with housing association contracts meets the Welsh bilingual, there are no monoglot Welsh speakers, who demands a discussion in Welsh concerning the house repairs? A demand the carpenter is unable to comply with, what can he do but learn Welsh or move to England.
This is not "wild and reckless" talk, it's the real world of Welsh Nationalism, of a minority group seeking political power.
Benedek and Maestairs have the rights of it, Benedek's reference to the Austria Hungary Empire is an excellent analogy, something Westminster might like to consider before returning the LCO.
Complain about this comment
I think many people are jumping the gun here.
The Welsh language LCO will only give the Welsh Assembly the right to legislate- if it so chose- on issues of the Welsh language and compliance to it.
The right to legislate regarding the Welsh language is an inalienable right of the Welsh people.
It will be up to the democratically elected members of the Welsh Assembly, they who are closer to their constituents in Wales, to debate any Assembly measure regarding the Welsh language.
Though some here post that “80 percent oppose” the Welsh language, that is clearly not the case. Currently, 80 percent claim English as their primary language, but that does not translate to hostility towards Welsh medium education or Welsh medium business requirements.
As articles and opinion polls bear out, Mapexx and others do not speak for the majority of monoglot English speaking residents of Wales, most of who view knowledge of and fluency in as part of a valuable skill set. As Cymro82 points out regarding his own belief and as my own links above (post 22) pointed out, there is a great interest by primarily Welsh speaking parents to have their children learn and speak Welsh fluently.
And Cymro82 is correct; if present trends continue the decline in the Welsh language is arrested and indeed is growing with the next generation, with over 50 percent of 4 to 16 year olds fluent in Welsh. I am anxious for the next Census, as the question about Welsh ethnicity and the question of knowledge of the Welsh language by speakers in England will be asked.
Complain about this comment
I think people need to look at what is happening over the water...
In Europe, despite what commenters here are saying, English is not the sole 'lingua franca' of European business, and it is very anglocentric to pretend that it is.
Over the pond in the USA, the successes and failures of 'Pro-English' are informative. Maybe Plaid will need to look at what Obama is doing - Cracking on at a rate of knots on the Middle East, Guantanamo and the economy. Possibly hanging fire on Universal Health Care until the second term.
'Dyfal donc a dyr y garreg' - maybe Plaid need to focus on 'paying the bills' as Betsan Powys put it - and take incremental, sensible steps for the Welsh language from now until 2011.
After all, if jobs are exported outside Wales and Welsh speakers head after them, it may be English speakers [possibly retiring etc.] who fill their houses.
Complain about this comment
Per 71, I mispoke in the 5th paragraph. The second sentence should have read
As Cymro82 points out regarding his own belief and as my own links above (post 22) pointed out, there is a great interest by primarily *English* speaking parents to have their children learn and speak Welsh fluently
Complain about this comment
Why are all these posts posted in English ?
-- Surely that speaks for itself.
Welsh language society -- promotion of the Welsh language is nothing more than gathering your political like around you -Nepotism - Empire building etc - Feathering your own nest
It contibutes nothing towards the development and well being of the Welsh people North south East or west and middle time we grew up and joined the big world outside.
Complain about this comment
BleddGelert,
I feel what your saying about maybe this isn’t the right time. However, when will be the right time?
I think some are losing sight of the fact that this is simply a Request by the people of Wales (as expressed by their elected Assembly) to the UK parliament to allow them the competency of legislation on their own language.
What the policies of the Welsh Assembly would be, let alone compliance policies, has yet to be determined.
This of corse because it has not yet been decided weather or not the Welsh are even competent to legislate on their language.
Anyway, settle weather or not the Welsh Assembly has the competence to legislate on the Welsh language, and then move on.
And when you think on it, it is very narrow minded to think that any legislature anywhere are so single minded that all of their time is monopolized by single issues. Legislature all over the world deal with many issues on their plate. This will be no different
Complain about this comment
Let's be clear here - over the last 30 odd years the Welsh language has been forced upon the English speaking areas. S4C, compulsary teaching of Welsh in schools and Bilingual road signs are examples that immediately come to mind. This is another example of that agenda.
The reason for many children attending Welsh medium schools has rather a lot to do with these places having a lot of money spent on them. This, along with the influx of people from other parts of Wales probably goes a long way to explaining the claimed increase in Welsh in Cardiff.
The Nationalists (I wonder how many Plaid members don't speak Welsh) are clearly taking a leaf out of the Jesuits book in attempting to mould the minds of the young. Thankfully it's clear even to children that Welsh is about as useful outside school, and in the modern world outside Wales, as a chocolate fireguard. It's prime value is as a binding agent for the Nationalist agenda.
Welsh speakers are at no disadvantage compared to English speakers. They all speak English too - every single one. Why, for what amounts to linguistic elitism or vanity should businesses of any size be saddled with yet another bill - particularly in a recession? If there was a real need for the use of Welsh market forces would ensure that it was provided.
I was born in Cardiff, as were my parents and Grandparents. We have far more in common with people across the Severn Bridge than those championing proposals such as this.
Complain about this comment
Drachenfyre - I think you have a point that the LCO is only about the right to legislate on the Welsh language in Wales -which seems fair enough, as it makes sense not to be making that legislation in Stormont or Holyrood, I guess.
But did the democratic vote for The Assembly actually give those powers to Wales in the first place ? If they did, then there is not a problem. If they did not, then many will feel that this is an issue, like say the Euro, where a further referendum is required to give it full legitimacy.
Of course, Labour aren't very good on the 'trust the people' thing on things like Lisbon.
I agree that the rights of Welsh speakers like me shouldn't be trampled on by the majority - but any legislation needs to be crafted in a way that it gets the assent of at least a 'silent majority'. Most non-Welsh speakers in Wales don't have a problem with Welsh schools or road signs - they only get upset when it is used as a proxy for division or nationalism.
Imposing a level of regulation or compulsion onto Wales which doesn't get the tacit 'buy-in' of most Welsh people will, I fear, be doomed to failure.
There is an old story about a competition between the sun and the wind to get an old man to take his coat off. Blowing hot and cold will not help persuade anyone of the need to keep the Welsh language.
A sunny disposition shining on the warm uplands of Welsh culture and the romance of the language and its music will probably work far better than any legalistic policies.
Complain about this comment
message 59...
apologies, you are correct the response should have gone to Puredrivel.
Can't think why I referred it to you, eyes off ball ...again!
Complain about this comment
It seems clear to me that the world has moved on and the language argument hasn't.
The root of the problem lies in the fact that the language was outlawed, then shunned (due to the perverse attitudes towards it from certain sections of our beloved UK establishment) and then forgotten by the masses the welsh speaking communities have become entrenched in their survivalist attitudes towards the language. I hope we can all see why they might be like that. Their community way of life is in danger in these areas and they are reacting as anyone would.
The problem now is that we have an opportunity where the Welsh language can be given its place in Welsh community without prejudice, yet old policies remain in place and much like a soured relationship both sides are looking for provocation.
I think the current LCO should be dropped and both sides should take time to take stock of the situation and the opportunities we have in this new world.
By all means if people require welsh language service have it available on demand. These systems are very easy and cheap to set up in today's technological society.
By all means let people speak welsh to each other, or Polish or Hindu or Urdu, the LCO should focus on allowing people to speak whatever language they wish (the Thomas Cook precedent).
Perhaps a solution is required where the Government declares a region to be Welsh speaking and businesses within these areas are required to provide these services as a minimum, others areas can supply the welsh language service as and when required, gauged by demand and not by legislative requirement.
We do live in an age where the slate of prejudice can be wiped clean and the language's growth can depend on adequate funding to market it in the correct way so that those who wish to avail of it can, and those who don't, don't.
I believe a voluntary uptake is the way forward. Forcing anything on anyone never works, anywhere in the world.
Whether you agree with my points or not, we should all agree that a tolerant and flexible solution is the only way to end the polarisation that the language creates in the public. That way, people can come together and not divide.
As for the school curriculum, countless studies have concluded that speakers of multiple languages are more likely to find it easier to learn other languages. Given the ease of available exposure to Welsh just by living in Wales it should be compulsory to a certain age, then optional. There's no harm in it and as Welsh is an ancient European language it will provide learners with the grammatical concepts that every european language uses, thus making it easier to pick up French/Spanish/German/Whatever.
Would anyone care to comment? This is a serious attempt at a practical solution, not an invitation for the usual tirade from extremists from both sides of the language coin.
Complain about this comment
#76 Andrew_in_Cardiff wrote:
"Welsh speakers are at no disadvantage compared to English speakers. They all speak English too - every single one."
The implication of what you say is, the Welsh Language is irrelevant. It should not be spoken because English is the language which should be spoken. What arrogance!! By that argument there would be no bi- or multi-lingualism anywhere. The Swiss would all speak German, the majority language. In Quebec they would not speak French, only English etc. Tell that to the Swiss or the French-speaking residents of Quebec, and see what response you'd get - it wouldn't be pleasant.
You must implicity agree with what's happened to the Welsh Language down the centuries, and particularly after 1900, and want it to continue until no-one speaks Welsh. All this because you can't speak it, and are too lazy or not bothered to learn your country's native language, you want it abolished. That is a totally selfish attitude. You might feel differently if it was something that YOU valued which was being trampled on.
Thankfully you are very much in a minority in Wales, indeed in the UK, which has signed and ratified the European Convention on Minority Languages, as have almost all European nations. They all want to protect and foster their minority languages.
Complain about this comment
"Otherwise - meet you on the barricades mate."
Has anyone else noticed that the threats, physical, mental and cultural, on this blog are all made by the anti-Welsh lobby?
What barricade mate? I am Cardiifian, Anglo-Welsh, and I support Welsh and believe it has a crucial role n who we are.
Because I speak English it doesn't mean I hate Welsh, hate Plaid, or indeed want to watch only English programmes.
I have no sense of cultural inferiority because I don;t speak Welsh and no sense of cultural superiority because I speak English.
If you trust the UK govt to look after Wales better than the Assembly, then more fool you: Thatcher, Redwood, Blair, Wales;s endless slide down all social indicators ... is that enough?
The UK govt sidelined and marginalised Welsh-language culture, but it has also invisibilised and inferiorised Anglo-Welsh culture.
I didn't study anglo-Welsh poets or literature or history at O level, I never learned about my own country , its history or its communities until I left school.
I'm delighted that has changed, and I believe firmly that anglo- and cymro-Welsh are n the same side because we share more history and more culture than we are told, and certainly more than people llike you believe.
If all you can dredge up as a sign of anglo-Welsh culture is that we watch Coronation Street IN ENGLISH (your capitals... a bad sign, that), then I'm sorry for you.
My Anglo-Welshness is a part of me, and it in no way means repudiating , hating, or feeling superior to Welsh.
That division, often politically sponsed and tribally engineered, has done us no good as a culture or as an economy in the 20th century.
By the way - don;t claim to speak for me, and don;t claim that because I'm anglo- I agree with your views. It's ludicrous to make cultural and political assumptions based on language, and arrogant to assume that because I'm Cardiffian and Anglo- I agree with you because you too are Cardiffian and anglo-Welsh.
People who move to Welsh-speaking areas should learn Welsh. Those who don't shouldn't. That goes for business too, who should provide services in Welsh proportionate to the Welsh-speaking population of their area.
Complain about this comment
When last checked about 52% of Plaid members are non Welsh speakers.
Complain about this comment
Andrew in Cardiff:
"Let's be clear here - over the last 30 odd years the Welsh language has been forced upon the English speaking areas. S4C, compulsary teaching of Welsh in schools and Bilingual road signs are examples that immediately come to mind. This is another example of that agenda."
i) 'English-speaking areas'. For one, these are not only English-speaking areas, but areas where a majority speak only English (i.e. areas where there is a minority who speak Welsh, and should have the ability to speak Welsh and use Welsh as fully as possible).
The problem with this logic of splitting Wales into "English-speaking" vs "Welsh-speaking" areas is that it fails to take into account the fact that if we look to a wide enough geographical area, English itself is a "minority" language, and so these arguments, if followed through, should see us all learning Mandarin or Hindustani (for example).
English is spoken as a first-language by only about a quarter of the number who speak Mandarin Chinese as a first language, and if Hindustani and Arabic are taken into consideration (both of which are spoken by more native speakers than there are of English), then English is only spoken as a first language by one sixth of the total population under consideration (i.e. some 16.67%, already less than the percentage Welsh-speakers in Wales).
If the rest of the world's languages were taken into consideration then English would be far more of a minority even than Welsh is in Wales.
It may be true (on the basis of this fallacious majority logic, etc.), that parts of Wales are "non-Welsh-speaking", but on that logic, the entire world is non-English speaking.
The real point is that languages are valuable in and of themselves, not merely if they can prove enough business or financial clout globally.
Complain about this comment
Stonemason you are wild and reckless, you create phantoms where none exist. Your analogy is that public bodies will have to employ only Welsh speakers, NO ONE IS SUGGESTING THIS AT ALL - sorry for shouting eveyone else, but these wild and absolutely unsubstantiated arguments are not justified. What benefits do you gain by creating fear and stoking hatred against Welsh speakers?
Complain about this comment
The other statistic that needs to be borne in mind is that 30% of the population of Wales is actually English, so therefore the actual Welsh-speaking Welsh population is much higher than 20%.
I'm hoping that dealing with the inequality of Welsh will lead towards the proper value being placed on our own Anglo-Welsh culture and history, on what makes it unique, and why it should be taught and promoted as well.
As a teacher, this seems to me crucial to our self-definition as a region or a nation, independent or federalised.
It was simply not available in my day - they taught us that Welsh was inferior and taught us to get out of Wales. I did for a while, and when I came back I was glad to see I could send my kids to Welsh school (and we had to fight for that , let me tell you...), and that we were finally getting up the national self-confidence to learn about ourselves.
Welsh is part of that. If you want it gone, or if you agree to its continuing erosion and second class status, then at some level, some quite profound level, our own Anglo-Welsh history and culture will end up swallowed up in the indeterminate middle-brow middle-English London-centrism just like our politics have been.
I'm as proud of Welsh as I am of the fact that my city had Britain's first mosque and the UK's oldest afro-caribbean community.
Funny how they never told us that at school...
So yes, I'll vote Plaid or pro-devolution Labour (if they can ditch the dinosaurs), I'll oppose the Welsh-bashers, and I'll call their bluff on their manufactured , minority hating resentment and their trumped-up warnings of economic collapse...
And I'll also remind them, in case they hadn't noticed, that Wales hasn't exactly been the Celtic Tiger of the 20th and 21st century. For most of those centuries Welsh was being gradually obliterated and smeared. The claim that Welsh holds us back economically is a lie. Unfortunately it was a lie that worked when I was a child.
Complain about this comment
Messages 79 & 80...
Message 79..
Drivvy old boy, no matter what you have said in previous messages, in 79 you have agreed with ALL of my previous messages re the language. You may not think so, but try re reading all of my previous ones and see if you can find any substantial points that conflict with your message 79.
message 80..
All the examples you have quoted are NOT similar to the situation in Wales. Switzerland is a federation of three major units, all of which had centuries old language bases.
Quebec is a French enclave, which remained, more or less, intact when Britain defeated the French for control of Canada. Again no comparison with Wales.
I would suspect the French language enjoys a vastly higher take up in Quebec, than does Cymraeg in Wales, on a percentage basis.
Your final paragraph show the level of intolerance and aggressiveness typical of a language adherent, who is well aware his 'second' language is under threat, not from English, but from the foolhardy activities he himself is engaged in.
It is the height of insolence to say to those whom oppose your attitude are lazy for not wanting to learn a language you are fond of.
The reason I say that is, because English is MY native language, as it is for 100% of the population of Wales, it is the everyday language of TV all other media,. most education, literature, film and any other communicative means.
Whereas, in your case it can be pretty well established that the nearest most Cymraeg speakers get to 'native' is because a minor number, residual from ancient days, kept the language 'alive' in relatively isolated areas, and bandwagon jumpers have leapt on board, especially over the last decade or two, to act like the unconverted smoker or Catholic, who in their unconversion become stridently vocal about their change.
As for being in a minority, well, how fatuous can one get...?
80% of the population do not speak Cymraeg, not that I am saying that percentage will side with me, by a long shot, but until they have been canvassed for their attitude towards the present situation, and the numbers proven one way or the other, I suggest you keep your commentary to what is known and can be proven.
The UK has signed up to many Euro conventions, but that does not say the average guy in the street either agrees or even keeps to what the UK has signed up to.
Protecting and fostering is one thing, vehemently and irritatingly thrusting a language into everyone's life, where it is quite obvious it is not particularly welcomed, is something entirely different.
The outcome of the present LCO propaganda is exceedingly likely to blow back into the faces of those who so loudly shout their demands.
Blowing of own trumpets usually has the adverse effect to the one expected and required.
Complain about this comment
Lyn Thomas: I wouldn't pay attention to Stonemason - all he's interested in is ranting against Welsh. His whole cyber-identity, such as it is, is invested in telling people like me that we aren't allowed to have Welsh-medium schooling, and feeding his own frenzied paranoia about the armageddon that would ensue from allowing Welsh limited equality. We;d be forced to write Cynghanedd at gunpoint and have to spend three hours a day wtaching Pobol y Cwm (instead of our usual fare, apparently according to Cardiff 008 BC, which is Coronation Street...)
Stoney's also on record as stating that Welsh-speakers would ethnically cleanse English speakers like me, and that the Welsh Not was in fact a good thing, which Welshies actually rather liked because they knew it did them good, see!
Complain about this comment
"The reason I say that is, because English is MY native language, as it is for 100% of the population of Wales, "
Mapexx, what? Total drivel. You can start by taking out of your 80% magic figure. You in no way represent me, and you have to right to claim to.
Think about it: the population of Wales is roughly 3 million. 1 million are English. Therefore the Welsh-speaking population is in fact c.650-700,000 out of 2,0000. Just under a third, say. But you'd prefer if they all abandoned their language and culture and got on with speaking your language, and living in your world on your terms. Nothing they do threatens you, yet you seem to wish them harm, or at the very least cultural annihilation.
Also you obviously know nothing of Welsh history, since you completely ignore the history of anti-Welsh legislation and the measures taken to destroy it since the Acts of Union and throughout the 19th and 20th centuries.
You're also blind to the fact that all your blog postings sing the praises of English, yet claim that people who speak and support Welsh are 'language adherents'. I've seen no Welsh speakers make such claims for their language, but all you anglo-supremacists bang on about is how great English is, and how big you are and how strong, and how many of you there are etc. Serious bully tactics if ever I saw them...
You are an English supremacist. I am not, though I am an English speaker. I am also anglo-Welsh, and when your lot have finished with Welsh (as you'd dearly love to be), you'll make a start on us, for being too 'parochial' or 'inward-looking' , a 'taffia' or a 'second rate culture', or whatever the next accusation will be.
I have nothing in common with you except that we both speak English as first language. Your attitude is dangerous and your hubristic belief in cultural supremacy - which I've yet to see the Welsh so-called adherents claim for themselves - is actively sinister.
Please count me out of your mythical 'majority'. Your battles are artificial, your hates all too natural and counterproductive.
Complain about this comment
So, because a minority of people like the Welsh language so much, it has to be forced upon a majority?
This is an arguement about compulsion. Those people who value Welsh are welcome to speak it - that should be a choice though. Currently, as far as school children are concerned, it is not. Proposals like these would intrdouce compulsion to businesses too. I resent that. I suspect that I'm far from alone in feeling this - perhaps this is the reason why prior to digital TV so many Cardiff and Newport TV aerials pointed accross the Severn.
If the approach to Welsh was to do things like making help available for those who are interested - fine. I doubt anyone would have a problem with that. Unfortunately, as with past examples concerning Welsh, the approach is all about forcing compliance.
If people want to learn Welsh - that's up to them. I feel no shame having no such interest.
Complain about this comment
puredrivelagain, your #79.
You have taken the politics out of the topic, you have my vote. Take the compulsion out and you would carry along the majority of the majority.
Lyn_Thomas , I don't hate anybody, I have very real fears when I read letters in the Western Mail or the Internet signed off by the membership of The Welsh Language Society, I detest Nationalism particularly the radical intent of Plaid Cymru and its followers, again only as a result of reading letters, internet posts and their documentation. When I read the likes of #79 I feel really good.
.............................
today I wrote in my blog....
Wales must become Independent .......... if a referendum for full law making powers is successful, this is the inevitable next step.
The reason is our constitution, Wales and England are conjoined, we have a single legal jurisdiction, further powers are the tipping point into Independence.
Wales, through the Assembly, has in recent years demonstrated how to create division within the Union, by design or by chance, a simple process of creating differences. The most obvious difference is the matter of free prescriptions for the sick, can it be ethical to share the taxation equally then have an unequal division of the spoils. England believes that Wales is reaping the rewards of the English taxpayers greater contribution.
The fact both English and Welsh health services have the same pro rata funding is not discussed, the different priorities are not discussed, only the obvious discrepancy of free prescriptions in Wales. This is a single example of how devolution, in its current form, distorts the relationship the people of England and Wales have with our constitution.
.....it continued.
puredrivelagain tells me my fears might not be so certain. I intend to write about his ideas tomorrow, maybe there are more people out there who feel the same way.
daverodway relies on insults, most Unionists are forgiving, fortunately we are not neighbours, but I forgive you Dave.
Complain about this comment
*66 firstly, show me where you have the stats that say the language is in decline; I've shown you mine. The site you read said English must take priority, but it doesn't say Welsh should die and less face it we have been waiting almost 500 years for a law to get rid of the anti-Welsh law of 1536.
*67 Irish is the official language and is spoken by over 1.5million people out of 4million, check your stats too. Also there are children that don't want to learn Maths, should we stop teaching that too? Bet they would love that.
*70 who stated that the Language Act would also mean small businesses? It is for all public bodies and big private ones, like utilities, telecommunications, supermarkets, etc. These businesses make millions of pounds in profits; don't tell me they can't afford it. People's utility bills went up before this language row; how about asking Tesco if they think it's right to put bills up if they have to use Welsh, but why they didn't when they added Polish to their labels?
*71 thanks for backing me up there, glad that there are people like you who choose to look at actual figures then making up figures like others here. I know a lot of non-Welsh speakers that would like to see this LCO go through.
*74 the reason everyone is speaking English on this site is that this is the BBC Wales site, not BBC Cymru; please check your addy bar at the top. How can you say we need to grow up, people are not saying everyone should speak Welsh or even only Welsh; people should have a choice, you have a choice. I'm pretty that if we had a German state you would press for rights for English speakers; funny how people can't see the other side of the argument.
*76 again forced down your throat? You have a remote don't you? Can't you change your channels? Bilingual road signs? Since when has that got to do with forcing the language? The Welsh hasn't replaced the English. The reason why parents send their children to Welsh medium schools as there was a report in 1999 that stated that Welsh medium outperformed English medium. The language is thriving, check the stats. Maybe you should also check your Party politics; there are many people in Plaid that just speak English; myself, Leann Wood AM, Mohammad Asghar AM and many others if you did your research (see *82); have you not checked the amount of Welsh speakers in Labour? Rhodri, Carwyn, etc and what about Tories, well even they are in on the act (Bourne for example). Lastly nice to tell us you have more in common with people of the bridge than people in your own country, a true Welshman's words there.
*86 what the hell are you on about; not 100% of people that reside in Wales are native English speakers; Welsh is for nearly 25% then there are those who have emigrated here from other states. You say English is the medium in all industries, like media, etc; well I can listen to Welsh radio, watch Welsh TV, read a Welsh paper or magazine, watch a Welsh film or read a Welsh book; how ignorant are you? And the government legislating against your will, well sorry the majority voted them in; let's see what life will be like for you and the rest of us in Wales under the next Tory government.
Tripe all tripe, can no-one come up with an intelligent argument against backed up with facts and stats? Study around the world shows that bilingualism is better on the brain and allows people to pick up a third or more languages if they desire; an example of this is Gwenllian Lansdown who can speak 7 languages and is now trying to pick up another three; her ward, is Riverside in Cardiff.
Complain about this comment
Sorry - where's the compulsion? Where's the forcing? Have you been forced Andrew?
Do Welsh up to age 16, then drop it? LIke a few other subjects which you're 'compelled' to study?
"Currently, as far as school children are concerned, it is not. " Tell you what: ask children what they;d like to opt out of and you'd find they wanted to opt out of English, maths, all sciences, and probably history. I know, I'm a teacher. So where does that leave your school compulsion?
Is a proposed LCO really compulsion? Have businesses provide Welsh services for those who want them, is that wrong?
You claim to speak for me, because I am part of the English-speaking majority. I don't claim to speak for you.
So please justify what and who this majority is, given that I speak English but am not part of your version of this majority.
Will the proposed Welsh legislation force you to speak Welsh? No.
By the way, my aerial wasn;t turned across the Severn. Sorry - does that mean I'm not a proper English-speaking Welshman? Please tell me, I'm interested. Am I the wrong kind of English-speaking Welshman?
And most of our aerials didn't in fact point across the Severn. Many may, but most didn;t. The reason being that we';re Welsh, despite not speaking Welsh. Therefore we wanted Welsh media. Perhaps you didn;t, but that's not my problem...
Complain about this comment
I still fail to see any coherent economic or cultural case for being anti-Welsh. All I've heard so far is rants about how superior English is, how much "we" love Coronation Street, and how the 'majority' to which I apparently belong is 'forced' into Welsh. Odd, given that none of us speak it, so this much-mooted 'forcing' must be failing pretty badly. Or even - get this, it's a crazy idea, but try it out - perhaps it doesn;t exist?
I won;t claim to tell you about Welshness, but I will say that I hope that our Anglo-Welsh culture is based on a lot more than the resentment, paranoia and bad television you lot have come up with tonight!
That's me done for the night. I know I'm the 'wrong kind' of English-speaking Welshman, but I do hope you'll let me have a place in your majority' someday boys!
Complain about this comment
Andrew in Cardiff:
"If the approach to Welsh was to do things like making help available for those who are interested - fine. I doubt anyone would have a problem with that. Unfortunately, as with past examples concerning Welsh, the approach is all about forcing compliance."
The real argument follows the logic of environmental policies because a holistic approach is necessary, and - yes - some degree of compliance is necessary on behalf of the larger businesses who otherwise will not necessarily do the 'right' thing.
Unfortunately, it's not a matter of saying "OK - if *you* want clean air, then that's fine, just don't stop me emitting sulphur from *my* chimneys and and polluting *my* part of the river!". Or (to use a less controversial metaphor): "sure, let the forests live but don't expect me to pay for it".
We all have a responsibility for the environment we live in, be it natural, cultural or linguistic, and part of our responsibility (yes, responsibility) to our cultural environment is to allow the Welsh language to stop being killed.
It is a case of reversing a decline, not imposing an unnatural growth.
For centuries (but most importantly, during the last century and a half, with effects multiplying recently), official policies and Acts have consciously and determinately weakened and fragmented the Welsh language in Wales. The parallel with environmental policy is not a small one.
Now it is indeed time for us all to say exactly what you said: "If people want to learn Welsh - that's [fine]."
Because to allow Wales to learn Welsh again (which, I would say, is a moral obligation to our cultural environment and our own histories) is something which we all have a part in. Our part is not necessarily to learn the language ourselves (in no way is the language being "forced" on anybody in this way), but by making sure that we give others - the next generations more than anybody - the best chance they may have to engage once again with their full cultural heritage and linguistic identity, refused to so many generations over the centuries.
I took compulsory French in school. It did me no harm. Most of my schoolmates have never spoken a word since they left school (and have been less than scarred by the experience) Ultimately we were given the option to engage with a culture which might broaden our horizons. And it wasn't even our own. There is nothing negative about language-learning, and nothing wrong with the idea of creating a vital bilingual society where we can all choose to use English or Welsh in all facets of our life.
Complain about this comment
Please remember that there have been English speaking areas of Wales since time immemorial. Further the present situation is that under 20% of the population speak Welsh and are disadvantaged by legislation which outlaws their employment in many governmental fields. While valueing cultural diversity it does seem wrong even to contemplate extending a system which uses ancient and noble Cymraeg to extract ecconomic advantage and deny 80% of the population employment in institutions for which they pay.
Complain about this comment
Cymro82, at #91.
I don't have the stats, but as I wrote .....
"language in decline, the words of "Meri Huws" Chair of the Welsh Language Board not mine,"
Catch her on BBCi player Dragons eye Thursday.
at #70
You can catch Betsan on the same programme, inside information I am guessing, 200,000 government money and you are in the game, scrutiny by the Welsh Language Board. Check it out on Dragons eye.
As I said earlier puredrivelagain has my vote.
Complain about this comment
Here's a citation from "An Act for Laws and Justice to be ministered in Wales in like form as it is in this Realm..." (1536) - i.e. the so-called 'Act of Union'.
It's amazing how much Henry VIII, with his cries of "discord [and] division" among "rude and ignorant people" sounds like many of the voices we hear on this message board! ^^
"And also [because] the people of [Wales] have and do daily use a speech nothing like or consonant to the natural mother tongue used within this realm some rude and ignorant people have made distinction and diversity between the King's subjects of this Realm and his subjects fo the said dominion and Principality of Wales. Whereby great discord variance debate division murmur and sedition have grown between his said subjects ... his highness therefore minding and intending to reduce them to perfect order notice and knowledge of the laws ... and utterly to extirpate all and singular the sinister usages and customes differing ... his said country or dominion of Wales shall stand and continue from henceforth incorporated united and annexed to and with his realm of England."
Of course, the Tudors were partly Welsh - they'd have been more than happy to see their legacy continue to today.
Complain about this comment
Here's another great one from 1682 (I'm cherry-picking these from the introduction to Aitchinson and Carter's book, "A Geography of the Welsh Language" (1994):
"The Native Gibberish is usually prattled throughout the whole of Taphydome, except in their Market Towns, whose Inhabitants being a little raised, and (as it were) pufft up into Bubbles, above the ordinary scum, do begin to despise it ... 'Tis usually cashier'd out of Gentlemen's Houses ... the Lingua will be Englishd out of Wales." (William Richards of Helmdon, in his 'Wallography')
I love the idea of those English-speaking Welshmen, "puffed up into bubbles, above the ordinary scum". Of course, even the Anglo-Welsh are still 'scum', just puffed-up extraordinary scum!!
Complain about this comment
Lyn Thomas 84:
There's no point trying to debate with the Stonemason, his stock in trade is fear.
Hes trying to argue on his blog now that a referendum on more powers means that we should have a referendum on independence. There's no middle ground with him.
Complain about this comment
Message 88...
Another who takes the odd bit out of context to try to make his point seem valid.
I am absolutely correct, 100% of the Welsh speak English, a very much less number 'claim' to speak Cymraeg.
This number is suspect, for the simple reason, doubts have been cast on the numbers who make that claim due to the potential many have made a claim they could not sustain if put to the test for fluency.
I would not dream of speaking for you, All I have stated, each and every time I have broached the subject, has been this, when and only when the whole 100% or at least the seemingly indifferent 80% , are canvassed for their views, and should those views coincide with yours well and good, but if they or a sufficient majority of them do not, then under any normal terms of reference, democratics should hold and the majority take the day.
Only by such a mandate being sought and gained, should any further pressures be placed before the population of Wales.
Also, your figures are suspect when
you come out with a claim that one million are 'English'.
Where do you get such a figure, possibly from the same source that tells you 300 thousand are fluent in Cymraeg perhaps?
You will have to do better than that young fella.
Complain about this comment
re 79 . Your idea of differing approaches for different areas of Wales has some merits. This was the idea postulated by the Welsh language pressure group 'Adfer' in the 70's .
It also sought to restore unused housing stock by raising private equity.
However, LCO's appear to be fiendishly difficult in themselves, let alone a situation where a geographical taper is allowed.
Nice to see some thought instead of sermon/rant/abuse , though.
Complain about this comment
re: 77 BleddGelert
"But did the democratic vote for The Assembly actually give those powers to Wales in the first place ? If they did, then there is not a problem. If they did not, then many will feel that this is an issue, like say the Euro, where a further referendum is required to give it full legitimacy"
Which goes to the heart of the matter in some respects. One would have imagined that Competency of the Welsh language would be an inalienable part of any democratically elected Welsh representative body. The Scottish parliament already has jurisdiction with regards to Gaelic, why are the Welsh inferior to Scots in that that they may not have equal jurisdiction over their language?
Some people claim to speak for the majority of monoglot English speaking residents in Wales, when they do not.
Clearly the majority of the democratically elected Assembly members favor increased authority on this matter. What any Welsh language measures would look like at this point is an unknown. And it is at this point that The stonemason, West-Wales, Mapexx, and ilk would have to campaign to their Assembly Members for their positions. Instead, they are trying to equate Assembly Competency over the Welsh language as a proxy battle over independence.
Perhaps for some it is. But who cares if the majority of the Welsh Assembly is securly unionist? What does Stonemason, West-Wales, and Mapexx have to fear if their AMs were truely unionists yet retained competancy on this issue?
As it is, currently the majority of Assembly Members do favor jurisdictional competency over the Welsh language, and as they represent the Welsh people and are physically closer to the Welsh people, then one would think that they have more insight on the issue rather then some MP in another country.
What needs to happen now is follow through. Media in the medium of the Welsh language needs to be promoted, even if by the government, to cater to the next generation of Welsh speakers... following the trends something like 50 percent within the next generation. This Welsh language media needs to be modern and timely, perhaps pop culture with a Welsh language twist.
If some posters here feel that their voice is not heard in the Assembly, perhaps it is because their party is not well represented there, as that particular party is unpopular with the Welsh electorate.
The Assembly needs full law making authority in this area of business, and let the democratically elected Assembly Members legislate on these matters.
People really shouldn’t jump the gun on these matters.
Complain about this comment
Having just had a look at the Welsh version of the BBC blog written by Vaughan Roderick I notice that the comments over the last 10 postings total 37. Average 3.7 per posting
Whereas on Betsan's equivalent, the comments to her last 10 postings total 389 and rising. Average 38.9 per posting.
This certainly appears to show the amount of interest in Welsh language discourse.
Complain about this comment
Mapex #100: "your figures are suspect"
The figures are actually correct. The census returns of 2001 showed that somewhere between 25-30% (I haven't got the exact figure, but you can check it yourself) of the population of Wales was not born in Wales. Most of these people were born in England. That makes around a million of those people living in Wales something very close to English. Daverodway is very accurate.
In some parts of Wales this figure of 25-30% is of course much larger. In any case, the population shift is huge and dramatic.
It's generally the case that those who have a positive interest in the language have a good awareness of the facts. It is unfortunate that the facts are so often so depressing (Meri Huw's 'language in decline'). The language is in decline, the earth's temperature is rising, the forests are being lost.
Things are not good, but we are at least able to start doing things to make a difference.
Complain about this comment
re: 97 and 98
I really like those quotes Bostoniwr, they are as reelect today as they were then showing innate prejudices. I think one of the hallmarks is that up until the mass media age, Welsh withstood these prejudices pretty well.
Complain about this comment
re: 100 and 104
Yes, about 30 percent of the residential population of Wales... and almost all of that in South East Wales.... is not Wales born. Meaning that Daverodway's figures are spot on.
According to the cenus and to the 2001 Labour Force Survay, those same results showed that of those born in Wales, 87 percent claimed a Welsh ethnic idenity (a question not asked on the cenus in Wales, but was in Scotland), in line with Census figures returned from Scotland.
This next census in Wales will be much clearer on the topic, which is exciting.
Complain about this comment
Gonoph #103
While the disparate post-counts may - just may - be the final piece of evidence needed to finally prove once and for all that there are fewer readers of Welsh than of English (and thus a conclusive blow to any desire to pretend that it is a living language), another reason might be that there is oh so much provocative to-ing and fro-ing and going round in circles over here.
To make the comparison worthwhile you'd have to count and compare the number of contributors and the number of actual viewpoints which are being expressed (many of the discussion threads on this site circle repetitively around the same discussions featuring the same opinions from the same contributors).
While you probably would still find a slightly higher degree of contribution to this site (as I mentioned, it's possible after all that there are fewer of us who read Welsh), I suspect also that if you read the Vaughan Roderick comments you'd find that the tone is generally a lot more friendly and a lot more constructive.
Not all measuring is to be done in terms of quantity.
Complain about this comment
One final point on the British Gas statement, used as evidence of the inordinate cost of bilingual services. Here's the quote in full as given on the BBC page (cited above):
“The energy industry is under a lot of pressure at the moment in terms of the cost it pays for the raw gas it provides to gas and electricity customers,” Rhys Jones, British Gas’ corporate affairs manager, tells the programme.
“So any costs above this occurring from any new Welsh Language Act are going to be quite high and there’s a possibility it will be passed on to the customers in the long term.”
The funny thing is that it doesn't make any sense if it's read as an indictment of the cost of the language. To get that argument out of it it has to be read something like this: "The energy industry is under a lot of pressure at the moment [...] so any costs [...] ocurring from any new Welsh Language Act are going to be quite high" and that is obviously fallacious since the cost of bilingualism is in no way related to the pressures which are on the industry - the costs of bilingualism (which are very small) are fixed.
What is being said, it seems to me, is that costs are rising anyway, we're going to have to pay more for our gas anyway, and if (note the "if" which *is* there in Rhys Jones' words), if there are costs from a new WLA, then those on top of the other costs will mean quite high costs altogether.
It doesn't seem to be much of an indictment, once it's read closely.
Is there more of this statement available, which would shed more light on this admittedly rather opaque bit of language?
Complain about this comment
103 - it's the time it takes for comments to be approved that fails Vaughan - much quicker here which drives conversation...well insult and vitriol anyway,,,,
Complain about this comment
Draig32 , your #99
"He's trying to argue on his blog now that a referendum on more powers means that we should have a referendum on independence. There's no middle ground with him."
This was in response to my #90 where I wrote about the tensions within the constitution caused by devolution.
It is my proposition that the tensions will descend into crisis if further powers are exercised in Wales without the "English question" being answered.
In response Draig32 writing as Draig left the following comment on my blog ...
" Where is the constitution of Britain? There is none. It's unwritten, and is already effectively a fragmented mishmash which has been accumulated over hundreds of years. It's not like the USA, where it's codified, and children are brought up to recite it.
If children were brought up in the UK to recite our "constitution", what would they say? "
In response to this scurrulous attempt to undermine the UK constitution .....
"We do have a constitution, and it is written, though it is not written as a single document, this constitution is shared by 60 million people, the majority of whom live side by side in peace. This constitution is not fragmented, it is not a "mishmash", it is a reflection on how the UK has developed over a thousand or more years."
If there was a constitutional crises caused by additional powers being exercise by an unelected cabal in Cardiff Bay, who would be the winners and losers, the winners would not be the people of Wales, except possibly a political minority.
Although not a new offering of power, the soon to be returned Welsh Language LCO has the potential to create a constitutional crisis, the WAG only needs to propose a measure that can impact on a business that sits astride the border between England and Wales and the media will do the rest.
Dare I ask the question "is the creation of a crisis the intention?"
After thinking about puredrivelagain at #79 I do realise that Welsh Language LCO is not needed, it is only goodwill by the majority of Welsh people, Welsh and English speakers. The only people who might benefit from the LCO are ...... well, it's not the majority.
Complain about this comment
My previous #110 paragraph 7 .....
"In response to this scurrulous attempt to undermine the UK constitution ....."
should read .....
"In response to this scurrilous attempt to undermine the UK constitution ....."
Complain about this comment
"Unelected Cabal"...perhaps not elected by you Stonemason but certainly by the people of Wales - democracy is a good thing.
Complain about this comment
Dewi_H .....
The Cabal would be the many and varied various Quangos located in and around or just visiting.
Democracy would indeed be good.
Complain about this comment
I am English and have lived happily in Wales for over eight years. No I have not learnt the language as I see little point, the commercial and technical world in the majority use English.
However my point is the cost, Wales cannot exist as a principality without English taxpayers money. I think a majority of the English would rebel if more of their taxes went on supporting the Welsh Language.
Let everyone have a choice - if they wish their car tax and energy supplier bills in Welsh then let them pay a surcharge, tick the box for Welsh Language. BT added a surcharge for those that did not wish to pay their bills by direct debit.
I have worked for WAG and have been appalled at the cost of making my department bi-lingual. Meetings where only one person wished to speak in Welsh and yet a full translation and interpreter service had to be provided. The tremendous cost of photocopying in both languages and the increased postage. These additional costs preventing my budget from doing more useful services for the people of Wales.
Yes I am all for the Welsh Language, but let those that wish to use it - pay for it
Complain about this comment
Message 104....
You fall into the trap so pitifully, do you not?
The facts of the matters are, I was an enumerator on the 2001 census, and am listed to be either a enumerator or a regional organiser on the next one in 2011.
I was, therefore, and will be again, in a prime position to have direct access to the truth.
I can assure you, there were many, here in the Gwent valleys who told outright lies regarding their level of fluency.
I am fairly confident, if thoroughly checked on, that would be reflected all over Wales.
Now tell me do, what convinces you other parameters are existing to contradict that?
Ticks in boxes on bits of paper?
Let me inform you of one thing ...face to face brings far more accuracy than expecting truth from such an iffy method of data collection and collating..
Especially as the census data is, effectively, anonymously supplied by those who fill in the forms.
Just like the exploded number of degrees, other certification, and experience claimed by job applicants. If all the claimed degrees were accurately counted, and cross checked with University graduations, I guess there would be some fairly large discrepancies come to light.
You will find that others, far higher up the chain have also questioned this failed method of counting heads in the last census, that is why the next one will ask different questions. Hopefully, which will provide a truer picture of just what level of
fluency in Cymraeg does exist.
The possible number born in England has little to do with the debate, there are hundreds of thousands of born Welsh living in England, should the English therefore be 'head counted' just to see who is competent in the English Language?
The whole of this discussion revolves about what a miserably small number demand, but even then it's not what they demand per se, more that they expect the general taxpaying public to pay for it.
As I am sick of saying, I do not wish harm to the language, but am quite willing to let those, who claim fluency in the language, stand up to be PROPERLY counted, so that the tax authorities can put the charge of the cost of the language to be paid for by those claimants.
That would soon show how many were competent, or more likely, prepared to support their so called 'native' language.
Money talks eh?
But I am dead certain you lot would not go for that, as it would be almost guaranteed to show the truth about the whole nationalistic agenda, and just how FEW are really steering the boat in Cardiff bay.
As for your coupling the language matter to global warming and such, are you for real?
Message 114...NEP
...your last paragraph, and concluding sentence.
...the same applies, doubly, in the NHS in Wales.
Every pound on translation, totally unnecessary anyway, means a pound less on patient care.
Complain about this comment
Mapexx,
Re: 86, I might well have agreed with your points but see how i did it - Non confrontational, no slurs, no emotion, etc. If you learnt to debate without inflammatory emotion you might win more friends among the nationalists ;)
Just in this blog you have used the phrases "height of insolence" and "English is MY native language". These comments betray your feelings and make it hard for people not to become incenced by your comments, as I do from time to time. You do seem to have a very supremicist attitude.
Not all your facts are accurate either. Allow me tell you something of the real world I live in.
Whilst 100% of people can speak at least a few words of English my experiences during university in the late nineties allow me to tell you that there are people in Wales who are educated to degree level who are not confident enough to hold a conversation in English with native English speakers. Furthermore, they often need coaching when going for interviews. These people hail from North, West and South West Wales. And these were people who were studying in the English speaking city of Swansea.
There are people in my native North Wales who cannot speak English to a fluent standard. This is true. I am from North Wales. Accept this as fact.
Complain about this comment
#103,
Thanks for the facts there. As someone has previously stated the overwhelming number of comments here are not down purely down to the fact that more people can read English but more likely to be that Welsh speakers are not going to be arguing for and against enhanced legal support of their language.
The British Gas example:
This company is using the language as an excuse to raise bills. We all know their profiteering ways, as most UK utilities are.
I worked for HSBC in Swansea for many years. We provide a Welsh language service because it is considered GOOD BUSINESS. When the welsh speakers aren't using it do you think the staff were sat around wasting time? No, they were servicing English speakers. See? No elitist division there, just multi skilling, a valuable asset in any Business person's armoury. The cost? Minimal. As Bostoniwr pointed out, the costs involved in setting up this service are fixed and minimal amongst the greater picture.
New English proud:
Asking Welsh speakers to pay for the service, to pay to receive information on vital services (water, gas, electric) in a language they might not use everyday or even understand (older generation more than younger) is quite frankly a disgrace in the 21st century.
People have to accept that Wales is a split country with some anglicised and others clinging to the only way of life they know. No side has the right to proclaim superiority over the other. We need a new way of thinking, a new way of doing things and to finally leave this tribalism in the past.
Complain about this comment
Hey Mapexx,
If the welsh speakers are to pay for this welsh language service because that's what they want then I counter-propose that they be given a tax rebate on the cost of providing the English language services that they don't use.
It's only fair isn't it? Why punish them for your English language service?
Complain about this comment
Hogygog,
Are you as your name suggests, a fellow gog?
Complain about this comment
Message 118....
It's called.... ' he who pays the piper calls the tune'.....
You lot do not pay, you extract, so where's your argument?
And, as we are the 'piper' in this matter, and do the paying,... dance little fella, dance.
Complain about this comment
...and now we have people saying we should pay extra for Welsh language services in........you've got it Wales !!! I dunno - this is like an 1840s throwback saession.....unbelievable.
Complain about this comment
puredrivelagain , your #117 ....
The British Gas example:
This company is using the language as an excuse to raise bills. We all know their profiteering ways, as most UK utilities are.
This is untrue, it cannot be true because I matters not whether I live in Caerphilly or Carlisle, my gas costs are identical, unless of course our English Brothers and Sisters are paying for our bilingual billing.
Disappointed with your argument.
Complain about this comment
Yes.
Complain about this comment
It is true that in the 2006 census in the Irish Republic 1,656,790 Irish citizens claimed to speak Gaelic. Hardly surprising given that the language is compulsory up to the UK equivalent GCSE level and a prerequisate at that level for university entrance and employment particularly in the public sector. In terms of fluency as a first language,however, it is estimated that there only 75,000 people in the republic who use Gaelic as a first language. Many of the others as good nationalists would obviously argue that they speak Gaelic even if the only word they use is Taoiseach. One of the funniest moments of my life was watching Ron Davies who had spent years learning Welsh up to a reasonable level in preparation for leading the Assembly speaking to an audience in the language of Heaven. One of those in the audience from North wales assumed that Ron spoke Welsh fluently and proceeded to respond in kind. Poor Ron had to ask him to repeat the question in English. Answering questions slowly on S4C in Welsh doesn't equal fluency I'm afraid. Try conducting a conversation in Welsh with any kid who has GCSE in the language and wait for the reaction. The Welsh language LCO might create employment oportunities for some particularly with the development of the Commissioner but its effect on the survival of Welsh as a working language will be insignificant. It's gesture politics as usual .
Complain about this comment
Mappex,
There's lots of things I could say but your own words say more than I ever could with exquisite eloquence:
"you lot do not pay, you extract..."
"we are piper in this matter, and do the paying...dance little fella, dance"
I should compain about your rascist undertones but I'd rather the whole board see you for what you are...
Complain about this comment
TheStoneMason,
From BBC website:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7537903.stm
EDF customers in South Wales pay £94.47 more a year than those in the North West for the same energy usage, and British Gas also shows differences.
The companies say that transportation costs, accounting for about 14% of the average bill, differ across the UK.
For British Gas customers, the biggest difference is £31.23 a year when comparing direct debit paying customers in the Southern and South East areas.
Clear and concise proof that it matters yes where you live.
These companies make billions of pounds in profit. If they cannot provide a service to their customers in their native language so they are quite clearly engaged in profiteering activities.
Complain about this comment
#114 newenglishproud wrote:
"I am English and have lived happily in Wales for over eight years. No I have not learnt the language as I see little point....
...Wales cannot exist as a principality without English taxpayers money."
(or would that be Scotland's oil revenues?)
Your chosen nickname says it all.
I think we see where you are coming from... England. You have an 'English' mentality, it seems to me. Living in Wales, you will have a vote in any referendum on legislative powers, including powers over the Welsh Language. That saddens me.
Wales is a 'principality' because it was conquered, occupied and subjugated, by whom... the English, none other! It has an Anglo-German imposed prince, the heir to the throne of.. you guessed it... England!
The English flag forms the centerpiece of the Union Flag. Wales' flag is scorned. Why? Because Wales was annexed to.... England.
Its people like you, in a century and a half of uncontrolled inward migration, mainly from England, who have been the main reason for the decline of our Language. You then have the arrogance to say that English people don't want to pay for its survival. That may or may not be true, but what is clear is that you don't want to pay for its survival. Of course, the Language means nothing to you, because you're not Welsh. You know the price of everything and the value of nothing. You can have no conception of what it means to us.
You talk about 'choice'. The people of Wales had no choice but to suffer the domination of their Language and culture by yours. The Irish Republic does not exist on 'English' money and has done extremely well without it, as have all the other countries in the world that are no longer under the yoke of British (aka English) imperialism.
I, for one, don't want 'your' money, and I would think that would go for most of my compatriots if they were asked. We've paid much too high a price for it down the years. The Welsh people should have control over their own language. It shouldn't reside at Westminster, the capital of... England. We really don't want 'your' money or your condescending attitude.
Let's have control of our own affairs, as any people with dignity should have.
Complain about this comment
Hogygog,
Thanks for the comments about Adfer, seems like a sensible policy idea was never uptaken.
At least North Wales can unite behind a common cause...mind you, we always have been united.
Complain about this comment
Further to 120,
Disabled people do not pay into the economy, they extract...Would you do away with them?
The unemployed, the aged, the sick, where do your genocidal tendencies end? Or is this just a xenophobic intolerance of anything you cannot understand?
You disappoint me mappex
Complain about this comment
Good words brynt41! Well said!
Did you know that even the term "Wales" is a derivation of the saxon word gwalia, meaning foreigner or alien race? In our own country no less!
I think that itself highlights what we can continue to expect from Westminster in the future.
Complain about this comment
puredrivelagain,
Having read the report at the end of your web link re. "Fuel price rises" I have come to a different conclusion in part .....
From the report .....
The closer customers are to a distribution point, the lower the cost. British Gas previously averaged out distribution costs but now transport and distribution costs are charged differently in each region.
This has nothing to do with the label attached to a region, North East or South Wales, just distance from a grid reference. This is not a question of being Welsh, it is a question of British Gas and the other companies competing with each other.
I modified your last paragraph at #126.
As they provide a service to their customers in their native language they are quite clearly not engaged in profiteering activities.
The logic in my last paragraph is as illogical as your last.
Profit or profiteering is another matter, it has nothing to do with multi-lingual billing, I would be surprised if the cost to the company, following a one off programming cost, is an extra 2 pence per bill. and if you do on-line billing as I do with Scottish Manpower it is probably a tenth of a penny, but British Gas with all other suppliers all use Transco to shift their products around the company, what cost to Wales, what cost to the Eastern region.
Complain about this comment
Puredrivelagain has hit the nail on the head when it comes to our energy bills:
Here is a quote from Miller Argent, the company operating the Ffosyfran opencast mine at Merthyr:
"Wales as a whole currently has a fairly balanced energy portfolio, combining gas, nuclear, renewables and coal, and generates enough electricity to meet current demand. However, due to the lack of distribution network between North and South Wales, South Wales has to import power from England. As a result, South Wales has one of the highest electricity prices in the UK..."
Welsh Mineral Planning Policy submission.
http://www.ffos-y-fran.co.uk/welsh-mineral-planning-policy/
Bear in mind that although S. Wales is a net importer, N. Wales is a net exporter, and by a huge margin. As a whole, we are a net exporter of electricity - it's well documented.
Complain about this comment
brynt41, your #127
That was vicious.
Might I remind you of your .....
"I, for one, don't want 'your' money, and I would think that would go for most of my compatriots if they were asked."
Now I know we pay taxes in Wales, so some of that money you refer to comes from your/our "compatriots".
There is a but .....
How many "compatriots" are employed directly or indirectly through "state spending". Unfortunately, in Wales, 72 percent of our GDP is derived from "state spending", with the best will in the world 28 percent of GDP is not going to support all our "compatriots" if our English brothers and sisters say, OK brynt41 don't have the money, we can spend it in the North East or South West, they have a poorer annual grant than do you in Wales.
As a stonemason I can confirm that most construction at this time has state support of one form or another. And we are glad of it.
Complain about this comment
#133 TheStonemason wrote:
"That was vicious"
He asked for it.
What does it say for us in Wales that such people can, 'live happily here for eight years', with that attitude?
He was actually employed by the WAG for goodness' sake. I just wonder what exactly he was doing there. He claims to support the Welsh Language, but contradicts that in everything else he says. Did he not stop to think that it was the Government of Wales he worked for, that it has a bilingual policy, because this is a bilingual country? It is NOT England.
'"...Unfortunately, in Wales, 72 percent of our GDP is derived from "state spending"'
Exactly, that's what being part of the British (overwhelmingly 'English' state) has done for Wales. Its created a state and benefit culture, in other words poverty, by European standards.. Objective One Funding.
Where do a disproportionate number of our youth end up as a result? Unemployment or the British Army, where they become Taliban fodder, fighting the US' wars, and being directed by English public school educated armchair generals.
Complain about this comment
message 129,...
I have to say, you disappoint ME.
Here I was, thinking you had a small amount of decency in your debating manners, and what do you immediately do, go off on a nasty and vicious tangent, relating matters that do not, in any of my messages, amount to smiting the disadvantaged.
On second thoughts perhaps I do so hit on the disadvantaged,... those who claim to be Welsh, only they call themselves Cymro.
But you are again supported in your nonsense by the contents of...
message 127...
Can't you [people come into the 21st century, keeping on harping on about what went on in totally different times and so long ago it matters not one bit to the modern person.
Scotland's oil was NEVER Scotland's oil, it came from fathoms under a sea that Scotland had only ever used for fishing, or paddling in, on a Bank Holiday.
All the works involved, all the capital employed, all the technology and equipment came from or through the UK central funding regime.
What did Scotland put into it?. A local workforce , many of whom turned traitor and elected a scheming mob who have attempted to wrest the control of the North Sea from it's rightful controllers. The UK government.
Besides which the oil fields are so far off the Scottish coast, that without the international agreements negotiated by the main players ringing the North Sea, Scotland would not have had a sniff of either the oil or the gas that came first. It certainly could not have provided the necessary funds or technology to explore and extract off it's own resources, even had it been independent.
Ireland is now paying the price of reliance on European funding.
That has dried up to some extent, and unless and until the economy of the world picks up, and rather dramatically, Ireland will sink back to where it used to be, a land supplying pork products, and labour to the construction sites of Britain, America, and Australia..
To go back on to the language subject, you take good measure to blame the English for it's, almost total, demise, but fail to explain why it was that the Cymraeg speaking Welsh did little to keep the language alive themselves.
Wasn't because they saw advantages in learning to speak, and more importantly accept English, as their own pitiful education system could not match that of their neighbouring regions perhaps?
They could have easily remained in their 'cultural' existence, could they have not?
Or was it they saw opportunity for their kids and themselves in learning to communicate in a language that had technology and self advancement springing from every letter, word, and sentence, in that language?
You people make me howl, you get a dedicated TV channel, a dedicated radio station , a language act, to enable you to revitalise the language to a reasonable degree, but you are not satisfied. No, you want the shilling and the bun.
It wouldn't be so off-putting if the claimed for numbers of Cymraeg speakers actually watched that TV channel or listened to that radio station, but according to published figures, they do not. In fact it has been calculated that each viewer of S4C costs the taxpayer something in the order of 3000 pounds per annum in subsidy.
Every attempt at publishing a Cymraeg language newspaper has failed,..ask yourself why?
'Twas not because no one would buy it, by any chance, was it?
Experience taught the potential publishers, they had had their financial fingers burned before, on similar failed enterprises.
Well I can tell you this, your days are getting rapidly shorter.
The demands you lot are making are becoming tiresome, and will soon get up the noses of those concerned, so much, that they will rebel against your demands.
The fund well is NOT bottomless, and ingratitude is not taken lightly across to the east.
Carp on at your peril.
Most of your writings to this page, and others, rely on emotive, but unstructured argument.
It reads as silly most of the time, as crying in your corn flakes at others, and totally out of tune with a dynamism that Wales needs to maintain any sort of credence with those who pay the bills. Funding that is needed to get us into any sort of financially viable state.
Complain about this comment
brynt41
Un/Employment ...
I can understand where you are coming from, but there has to be more to it, there are identical problems in other parts of the UK, there are identical problems in France and other parts of the EU.
As a mason of many years let me tell you about 2 problems I encounter with potential apprentices and other young people ....
first ..... communication, something simple such as making work observations and writing them down so that someone else can take it from there.
second ..... Maths, devastatingly depressing, unable to calculate the simplest of things such as area and volume.
..... and I am not talking about the minority. Obviously nowadays the education/careers people send the less able to construction, in error, don't need the so bright, but why have these children, and that's what they are when I meet them first, finished their schooling with zero skills.
Is it the funding, the way funding is allocated, the teacher training, teacher aptitude, management of education parents, siblings etc .....
brynt41, the only way to raise the employment bar is through education, it's only through education can we give our children a fair start in life, not everyone is going to become the scientist or lawyer, but everyone needs .... etc.
I did 9 years in the Army, 74-83, didn't meet any armchair generals, the public school has a presence, but it's very small. Where the services are sent and what the mission is, is a political matter not military.
Complain about this comment
Bostoniwr @#107.
You said.....
"I suspect also that if you read the Vaughan Roderick comments you'd find that the tone is generally a lot more friendly and a lot more constructive."
I'm sorry Bostoniwr but I'm not in a position to pass comment on the 'tone' or comments of Vaughan's blog.
There is no translation, which clearly indicates to me that Vaughan has no wish to communicate with the likes of me, irrespective of the 'tone'.
As opposed to the fragrant Ms. Powys who casts her favours to all......No hang on a minute, I'd better rephrase that......the fragrant Ms. Powys who clearly wishes to communicate with monoglot English speakers as well as Bi-lingual Welsh speakers.
And who said that the Art of communication was dying?
DewiH @ #109.
Vaughan has already indicated that he does not wish to communicate with we monoglots therefore his blog is irrelevant to the majority.
Presumably, insult and vitriol do not exist in his tiny world.
Complain about this comment
I am not a welsh speaker, but all my descendants, over the last hundred years were born west of Offers Dyke.
I despair of the condition of Wales of today -- and forcing people, here, to speak Welsh will not improve it
I have spent best part of my working life in various countries doing what is generally called 'Technology Transfer' because this is what is required by the host countries to enable them to develop and provide a future for their children.
In ALL cases the student / trainee whose ENGLISH is sub-standard is dis-advantaged because ENGLISH is the language of Technology and Business and there is nothing the minority language speakers of any type can do about this. It IS a fact of life.
The arguments taking place on this forum appear to miss this argument.
I have absulutely no argument or nothing against people keeping Welsh (Cymraeg) alive.
BUT I object, as others on this forum having it --
'Stuffed down my throat --
My grand kids having to sit through lessons they HATE ( I did this with Latin back in the 50's 2 years wasted for me) --
Paying for bilingual bills I can't read
For goodness sake get your head out of the sand and look around you.
The prime minister of Malaysia made Bahassa Malayu (Malay language) compulsory for higher education back in the 1980's or thereabouts -- It put a generation of the brightest Malaysians back by 10 years -- It has since been changed, now the requirement are for a high grade in English --- Common sense prevailed.
In Malaysia 99% speak Bahassa Malayu 18 million, in Indonesia 220 Million speak Bahassa Indonesia This is 99.9% the same language as Bahassa Malayu. Giving a total of 240 million people.
For goodness sake get a life and think of your kids and grand kids not your own selfish ideals.
Complain about this comment
Well, were up to 138 posts and counting, and I've really seen it all.
Mapexx's comment really takes the biscuit - I can only surmise that he hates the Welsh and the Scots, as his comments drip with condescension and contempt.
It's a form of racism really. Years ago these people sat back in disbelief as anti-colonialism swung into gear, and dozens of nations threw off the yoke of the British Empire - in Africa, India and elsewhere. All these nations took the "benefits" that British "progress" had bestowed upon them and jumped ship.
How ungrateful can you get?
It's just a modern version of the "White man's burden" - we in Wales are supposed to be grateful for what we've got. The idea that we might want something as basic as the right to speak our own language is just outrageous - absolutely outrageous.
If I needed further proof that we'll benefit from Independence - Mapexx with his colonialist vitriol provides it. Roll on the 21st century!
Complain about this comment
And while we're at it - let's point out the implications of Mapexx's threats - if ever there is a "rebellion" as he puts it against our so-called "tiresome" demands then Scotland and Wales will cut off your gas, water, oil and electricity and then we'll see how cocky you lot are.
As Wendy Alexander put it so eloquently "BRING IT ON". :-)
Complain about this comment
#94 - That's quite a leap from supporting the Welsh language to climate change. I don't think that it's a comparrison that stacks up in that are we're talking about a small number of big polluters being legislated against for the benefit of all. In the case of Welsh we're talking about everyone being legislated against for the interests of a minority. A better analogy would be with some forms of religion. In that case a small number of vocal evangelists attempt to spread their beliefs and encourage public policy that furthers those beliefs particularly with regard to children. In doing so they seek to remove choice from others. Such people can't understand those who don't share their views and seek to demonise them.
The interesting thing about supporters of the language and Nationalists is they often talk about this or that injustice however many hundred years ago. It's rather telling when people are so focussed on the extremely dim and distant past. It is no different from people who demonise the current generation of Germans or Japanese for the actions of their ancestors. I suspect that the wished for revival in the language more about furthering certain political ambitions and providing jobs for Welsh speakers than anything else.
You contradict yourself somewhat. In one breath you describe learning Welsh as a moral obligation. In the next you suggest that in no way is the language been forced. The first utterance appeared to be an attempt at emotional blackmail to me. You speak about preserving a cultural heritage, but it sounds to me more like living in the past.
The issue of the schools curriculum has been something of a political football. There will inevitably be some subjects that are central to children becoming useful members of society. Communicating in English is one (like it or not it's an incredibly useful tool throughout much of the developed world), some degree of understaning of maths and science are others. I would be far happier if French or Spanish were offered as an optional alterntive to Welsh for those who see their future in terms of a broad modern international community, rather then a narrow comparatively local one whose ideas are demonstratively hung up on the injustices of the past.
If there are some North Walians whose grasp of English is so limited that they cannot function in wider British society I think that is both shocking and sad. It says rather a lot about the failings and dogmatism surrounding their education. We should be ensuring that no one is so disadvantaged again in the future rather than spreading such a risk to more children in the future.
Complain about this comment
#135 mapexx wrote:
"Here I was, thinking you had a small amount of decency in your debating manners.."
Hey, thanks for that, smiles!!
Complain about this comment
#136 TheStonemason wrote:
"I did 9 years in the Army, 74-83, didn't meet any armchair generals..."
My remark was slightly tongue-in-cheek. You probably didn't meet any generals, or if you did they didn't spend too log chatting with you... correct? Were they English, I wonder?
Complain about this comment
136 Stonemason . For the second consecutive Sunday I agree with some of your points . Standards of education are terrible, with both syllabi and curricula at fault . We are not producing engineers or technical specialists of any description. If there is a fault with Welsh-medium schools (where standards are high) , it is the over- production of pupils with language, and humanity qualifications, at the expense of the sciences.
If the Welsh language is to live, it will because schools are producing mathematicians, physicists and engineers capable of discussing their work in Welsh (or English). We are introducing nonsensical qualifications like 'Media-studies' , and continuing to over emphasise the performing arts . These faults are not unique to Wales , of course , but the assembly's non-existent approach to maths and science teaching is losing it friends in schools. I very much doubt whether the Smith report of a few years ago has been read at all by Jane Hutt, or her predecessor.
Standards in Welsh, English and modern languages are appalling , and its the classic case of the emperor having no clothes.
Complain about this comment
#138
"...forcing people, here, to speak Welsh will not improve it."
No-one will be forced to speak or learn Welsh. There may be incentives for people to learn the Language, but it will be up to them in the final analysis.
Don't mention school lessons to me. Wider society makes decisions about what the school curriculum should consist. The Tory government of Major decided about Welsh lessons to 16, without providing proper resources for teaching it. It probably hasn't been helpful.
Complain about this comment
If Charles Darwin's theory of the evolution of the species were applied to linguistics, I wonder what the prognosis would be with the dilemma we have in Wales today, I wonder what he might predict as the outcome, could we expect Neanderthal and Cro Magnum co-existing in 50 years, or 100 years, or ever ?
Not an obtuse question.
Complain about this comment
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/7844192.stm
'lingua franca' awards...
Complain about this comment
message 142....
Wipe the smile off it was not in response to you,
That came further down message 135.
Complain about this comment
What's the problem with increasing use of the Welsh language? Our kids will become more competent in using other languages (research shows that bilingual children pick up other languages more easily), it gives Wales a uniqueness with respect to the rest of the UK (great for the tourist trade) and it is, after all, the language of Wales, inextricably linked with the history of Wales.
Far from "forcing Welsh down the throats of residents", an LCO would give the increasing numbers of people of Wales who are learning Welsh, either in school or as adults, more opportunities to use the language that they wish to speak.
And as a Chepstow resident, I'd be more than happy to have the opportunity to buy my fish & chips in Welsh....roll on the LCO!
Complain about this comment
Draig32 @#140 said....
"Scotland and Wales will cut off your gas, water, oil and electricity and then we'll see how cocky you lot are."
Now we see the true face of the nationalists. Threats to life giving utilities eh? Sounds a bit war-like to me.
This, of course, presupposes that Scotland and Wales are the controllers and rightful possessors of these utilities.
Unfortunately, this is not the case, as these utilities are under the possesion and control of the UK government.
I would venture to suggest that any attempts at usurping the Government's authority would be met with a swift and decisive response.
Further, I suspect that the 50 odd million residents of England would also take umbrage at your suggestion.
Do you think that they will just take this lying down?
You clearly have forgotten the British resolve that has provided you with the prosperity and security that you currently enjoy.
As the fragrant Wendy puts it......Bring it on.
Complain about this comment
re: Mapexx "Scotland's oil was NEVER Scotland's oil, it came from fathoms under a sea that Scotland had only ever used for fishing, or paddling in, on a Bank Holiday.
All the works involved, all the capital employed, all the technology and equipment came from or through the UK central funding regime.
What did Scotland put into it?. A local workforce , many of whom turned traitor and elected a scheming mob who have attempted to wrest the control of the North Sea from it's rightful controllers. The UK government.
Besides which the oil fields are so far off the Scottish coast, that without the international agreements negotiated by the main players ringing the North Sea, Scotland would not have had a sniff of either the oil or the gas that came first. It certainly could not have provided the necessary funds or technology to explore and extract off it's own resources, even had it been independent."
Sometimes ignorant statements like this really make me cringe. But I do like how you illustrate your position well.
I love this statement, perhaps you should visit the BBC Scotland forums and post something similar?
Mapexx wrote
"What did Scotland put into it? A local workforce , many of whom turned traitor and elected a scheming mob who have attempted to wrest the control of the North Sea from it's rightful controllers. The UK government."
By treaty, the North Sea is divided into five sectors since the 1960s between Norway, Netherlands, Denmark, Germany, and the UK government. Similar international treaties exist for fishing rights and other explorative endeavors.
Do you really think that had Scotland been independent, it could not have negociate its own sector on its own?
When Scotland succeeds from the UK, the Scottish sector will be divided out as well between Scotland and England.
By the goddess!
Complain about this comment
*95 where is this less than 20% come from; my gosh these stats are decreasing, please look at the UK government Census 2001 for the stats of 8 years ago, then look at the stats of for 2004 that state within 3 years it has risen nearly another % point.
*96 the Welsh Language Board shows that language is in decline in the heartlands, but is in a drmatic increase elsewhere in Wales; hell there's even two Welsh medium schools in Monmouth.
*100 please re-read your message before that said 100% spoke their native tongue of English... also you tred on dangerous ground when you say go with the majority; the majority voted in Labour, they have gone in to an illegal war, spent billions in reknewing nuclear subs, etc. Don't forget majority voting also brought in Hitler! You can not live your lives with the majority, that is not how liberal democracies live. They are about equality, would you not stand for equality for women? Ethnics? Homosexuals?And again for stats, read 'your UK' government's official figures; over 20% of 3million.
*114 that is total rubbish, so you're saying let's live in an unequal world and if you wish to use Welsh, even when it's you're mother tongue, you have to pay for it. Are you saying that disabled people should pay more for their services? Cancer patients should pay for their drugs as they have to use them??? If you don't like Welsh being used then why come here? It's a bilingual country where people should have a choice, I'm an English speaker, I'm choosing to speak English. You, who is English, don't want to pay for the Welsh language, well me, who is Welsh, does't want to pay for your wars, weapons, olympics, etc.
*115 I doubt very much you are anything to do with the census. You're allowed to speak about what you see or hear personally?Anywhere else and you'd be sacked. You talk about cost; cost should come after equality. Bet you're one of those people that complain about immigrants aren't you as they are a minority. Don't put a price on equality.
*122 oh thee who has little knowledge. Of course the price of resources are different all over the UK. Look at water, people who reside in Wales pay more for Welsh water than those across the border. People in Liverpool and Birmingham pay less for guess what??? Welsh water!
*135 suppose you think the resevoirs in Wales should be the UK's and the mines in Wales too? You say the Welsh speakers didn't keep it alive? I think they've done pretty well since it is still here 500 years after being 'illegal'. Then you go on about Welsh speakers have 'a' channel, 'a' radio station; how many has English speakers got? Have you got a right to speak English? Yes. Well Welsh speakers want a right to speak their language too; it's not rocket science...it's called e-q-u-a-l-i-t-y.
*137 I think it's wise that you let Ms Powys speak for herself and let it be noted that Ms Powys is a Welsh speaker, maybe noted part of this so called 80% the xenophobes are ranting on about (xenophobe=fear of foreigners, Wales/Welsh=Germanic for foreigners, some on this blog=xenophobes).
*138 the fact of life, as you put it, is that Chinese is the majority language, not English and also China is the bigger economy, not England. You say your grandkids hate Welsh, I bet they hate other subjects too hey? I know what, let's get rid of those too. I hated science, I don't use it now does that mean it should be banned? A lot of people hated Maths as kids and they still say to this day they didn't need what they were taught, should we ban it?
*150 lol, why yes just as Russia did; the water, coal and gas is in Wales, the oil and gas again is in Scotland. There's no threats involved; but it proves that we can live independently; England doesn't subsidise us, we subsidise them with our resources, which is a lot more than the money they warily give us.
Come on people, this is the 21st century. We are talking about equality. Those who are against the language is also against equality; they were probably complaining about the equality of women, ethnics, religions, sexual orientation and disabled people too. As a gay man, who's learning Welsh, is a Catholic, with immagrant heritage (French), with women friends and members of his family and has a disabled Mam; I sure don't have a chance with these guys. It is not us who wish to go back in time, but you. We want equality; which tended not to happen in the past. I bet you guys cried when you found out the imperialist, colonialist Empire failed and i bet you were more upset when you found out that most of these countries are now better off independent than under your rule. As I describe myself above, I and others like me do not force any of our 'ways' or cultures on you and we do not scrounge or not pay our way in to the same tax system that pays for things that you may need or desire that we do not.
Complain about this comment
Andrew in Cardiff, #141
1. "That's quite a leap from supporting the Welsh language to climate change"
You say that it's "about a small number of big polluters being legislated against for the benefit of all"
Absolutely wrong. It's about everybody considering the good of others and the wider implications of their actions, whether they effect us individually or not (how many of us individually will be affected if the Phillipines go under? - very few; the ice caps? - very few. Extinction of Polar bears? -very few, and yet we change or actions anyway because we're not selfish).
The 'analogy' of religion and 'evangelists' makes no sense, since one is free to believe what one wishes whatever others think, but a bilingual, multicultural and tolerant society requires sense from all sides.
2. "You contradict yourself somewhat. In one breath you describe learning Welsh as a moral obligation. In the next you suggest that in no way is the language been forced"
No contradiction at all. There's a difference between being forced into learning a language and acting according to a moral obligation to allowing others to have freedom to speak it.
3. "it sounds to me more like living in the past."
That's what bigots and imperialists have always said.
4. "I would be far happier if French or Spanish were offered as an optional alternative to Welsh for those who see their future in terms of a broad modern international community, rather then a narrow comparatively local one "
As I explained earlier - even English is a minority language on a global scale. These arguments of international vs local miss so many points. It's like saying 'why bother getting to know your next-door neighbour, or your family - there are millions of other people in the world you could get to know.'. There was once a slogan, 'think global, act local' - it wasn't altogether bad. Love your family and yet also have respect for your neighbour. Why look solely to the distance - is the grass so much greener?
5. "If there are some North Walians whose grasp of English is so limited that they cannot function in wider British society I think that is both shocking and sad"
what if these shocking and sad people are happy enough to take their weekend holidays in Paris or Vienna, speaking fluent French or German? What is so special about *your* language that anybody who doesn't speak it is so 'disadvantaged'?
Complain about this comment
brynt41,
#143
Headquarter staff, 1 BR Corps, Bielefeld, Int.
Mostly briefings, I would guess the proportion of officers to ethnicity would come close to population make-up, except the Scots were skewed in their numbers, Scots make more officers.
Complain about this comment
lynnecaerfyrddin , your #149
If the proposed legislation included the local fish & chip shop, very unlikely, and Welsh was not on offer, would a complain be made to the Welsh Language Board? Not necessarily by yourself.
Complain about this comment
Hey (not) a trick question...
What's the difference between an economy bag of boneless chicken breasts...and the BBC's Editorial Executives...?
(A) Nothing organic, but the chicken feeds children.
A DAY OF THE DEEPEST SHAME.
Complain about this comment
The way this is written, it may as well be in Welsh. Sure blogging is informal, but the style here is too lax to be understandable. What is actually happening here?
Complain about this comment
Re 115
I've been away for a couple of day - having a life I think they call it - and when I come back it seems that the inmates have well and truly taken over the asylum.
In another very long and wordy contribution, mapexx, who consistently boasts about the fact that he knows nothing at all about the Welsh language, and is proud of his inability to speak it (all of which is an intellectually dubious position to take), states categorically that people lied in the the last census about their level of proficiency in the language. Could he please tell this ignoramus (I know I am, I've been told that by mapexx often enough for there to be no doubt) how the hell can he tell?
Complain about this comment
Message 152...
If the way you have 'composed' and written that message is an indication of Cymraeg education, then I see my criticisms are well justified..
I am quite prepared to prove to you that I have taken part in the 2001 cenus, and that I am listed to take part in the 2011, census, so if you don't mind, I expect you to refrain from calling me a liar, but I suppose that is all I can expect from someone whose argument is faulty, their facts just regurgitated Plaid propaganda, and their comprehension capabilities totally lacking.
Now if you think you are up for it, and will post your arguments one at a time, or at least no more than two at a time, I may be able to read and understand what the hell you are on about, and I will then deconstruct your submissions on a one by one basis. Otherwise, you are just showing your incapability to expand, allowing for reasonable response, item per item.
Just one point I wil respond to... Chinese may have more 'native' speakers than English, Spanish also has a large contingent, however Chinese is almost totally concentrated within China, apart that is from the Chinese diaspora. Which in itself tends to be localised only where ethnic Chinese settle, and the languiage is then usually contained within the Chinese community.
Spanish, likewise is concentrated in some localities such as parts of south America, some island states, Cuba and the Phiilpines for example. It also, as is the case for Chinese, is a second language in very few places except where much migration has taken place, the USA is typical of that.
English, on the other hand is globally located, and is the preferred second language in virtually every country in the world where it is not already the premier language.
Now, if you wish to have a decent response to your 152 message, then resubmit, but in parts that can be taken one at a time.
Complain about this comment
Message 151....
As Gonoph has said, the north sea facilities were put there by Britain, Scotland's direct input was nominal.
Had Britain, including Scotland by the way, NOT negotiated the treaty for the exploration and subsequent extraction, you reckon Scotland could done it.... what with?
As with Wales, the only capital Scotland had at the time was being supplied from the general UK tax base. They had NO extraction or exploration capability of their own, and would almost certainly have had to place whatever they 'controlled' into the hands of the Americans or Norwegians, thereby effectively being put into the position of paying for the oil they may well have seen as their own.
Both BP and Shell were London based, as were, and still are as far as I am aware .all the other third party oil and gas firms such as Exxon, Gulf and all the rest. It was those firms, ably funded by the taxpayer that did all the necessary to get the gas and oil onto the surface.
Sure, Scottish territory was used for the landing sites, but it was British technology and capital that then placed the equipments to enable the gas and oil to be distributed across the length and breadth of the UK.
The mention of which, brings me to write about the gas pipeline from Haverfordwest to Gloucester.
If Wales had been independent at the time, do you honestly think that line would have been placed there, or would it not have been terminated at Avonmouth?
You cannot have it all ways. So I would be satisfied with what you have if I were you, anything else will cost you dear.
The way the truth about all this nationalistic jingoism is now being revealed thanks to the turn down in the general worlds economy, I can well visualise that there will be a lot less stridency from those who would hive Scotland off and out of the Union.
Secession is a matter for the whole of Scotland, not just the SNP, who I fear will be reaping the benefit of the damage done to the British economy through it's world famous, but now infamous, banking system, that has turned out to be one massive disaster for everyone.
Then there is the matter of the oil and gas running out, With what will a seceded Scotland fund itself when, and if, obtaining independence, it has nothing in the bank to sustain itself?
Please do not tell me it can be as thriving as Ireland On The Skids.
There's nothing like a large tranche of downturn in the economy to turn people off the idea of upsetting the apple cart of what they have already.
A case of better the devil you know, than the one you do not know.
A simile that can also be applied to the situation in Wales.
Complain about this comment
I hope the Welsh Assembly Government rush along with this LCO thing.
If they get their skates on, it might be in time for the employees of Corus to be told the bad news about their future employment prospects in Welsh.
Complain about this comment
God Afternoon Fidafydd.
I was taught Welsh from the age of about 5 till 13. I was then given a choice of which subjects to take for 'O' level.
Although by now I could speak Welsh reasonably well, I dropped it in favour of a useful language . . .French.
Happily, I now have practically no knowledge whatsoever of Welsh, apart that is from the Mickey mouse words made up by an extremely unimaginative Welsh Language Board committee, which I "collect".
You know the type of thing. .PIANO (piano)PISTOL (pistol) DIGIDOL,(digital)LITR (litre) POMGRANAD,(pomegranate) COMPIWTOR,(computer)FFLAT,(flat)TWRCI (turkey)PIN (pin) PRINTIO (to print)FFOTOGRAFF (photograph)and my favourite of the moment, the rather cheeky PORNOGRAFFI.(pornography)
In case the vast majority of English only speakers are dubious, the above are genuine examples of made-up contrived words, made up by a committee.
Many of us now partake in this "Daft Welsh words" collecting. It all began several years ago with the legendary AMBIWLANS which has now passed into folk lore.
Try it, it really is quite entertaining. It also drives the language fanatics crazy which is another thing it has going for it.
Complain about this comment
Good to see the Welsh Assembly fiddling while Rome burns...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7850113.stm
Complain about this comment
Hate to be a stickler here, but whilst we're talking about language can we at least spell "Vodaphone" correctly? It should be "Vodafone," you may have heard of them...(guess where I work!)
Complain about this comment
Free Monmouthshire and return it to England
Complain about this comment
Re 162
I see mapexx has decided, once again, not to answer a direct question ...
Complain about this comment
Apologies to mapexx - before he flies off the handle! - I hadn't noticed that it was our old friend Noah who had written a 'reply' to me. But I look forward, as always, to hearing from you mappy ...
But, Noah bach, driven crazy - moi?! - whatever - que sera sera - I'm really not that bothered, strangely enough, that you have such a juvenile sense of humour; I suppose I pity you. It reminds me of the words of one recently departed oaf who said that the problem with the French is that they have no word for entrepeneur. Anyway, Noah bach, hugs and kisses, etcetera, etcetera.
Where did I put that panini and latte ...?
Complain about this comment
Re 161
Bad taste.
Re 163
Can you please name any government in the world which, even at times of financial crisis (which can hardly be blamed on the WAG by the way) only focuses on one thing at a time?
Complain about this comment
Noah, A fair point. Perhaps we should start a campaign to bring 'Heddgeidwad' or even 'Heddwas' for Policeman instead of 'plismon', as the originals mean 'peace-keeper' or even 'peace servant', which is a lot more 'touchy feely'.
But what you forget is that some English words derive from Latin or Greek anyway, and so the Welsh 'derivation' is not as contrived as you might think.
Biology used to known as 'bywyded', but is now often translated as 'bioleg'. In the same as Chemistry is translated as 'Cemeg' or Physics as 'Ffiseg'. But since the origin is 'bios' [life] and 'logos' [knowledge] where's the harm ?
And it can give us even more amusement if we consider that a certain gentleman who is a big noise in Formula 1 [Fformiwla 1?] enjoys 'bondeg' [allegedly]...
Complain about this comment
Ah Fidafydd, I can only sit here gasping at the razor sharp wit that seems to flow so effortlessly from your keyboard.
The way you cunningly included the words "panini" and "latte" at the end of your post was a superb example of grammatical dexterity at it's very best.
The fact that these words have, ever so slowly and NATURALLY entered our English language, only reinforces my point about the rather silly attempts of the soon to be scrapped Welsh Language Board.
They do not see fit to let words and expressions from other lands enter the language in a natural and slowly evolving manner. Oh no, they hold monthly meetings where they actually MAKE UP their own words, (invarialy from the wondrous English language) and squirt them out over an incredulous and often smirking populace.
Like a maniac with one of those horrible Krachach(!) power sprayers, they force their latest (expensively obtained)offerings from Penarth to Prestatyn, and from Whitesands to Welshpool.
By the way FiDafydd, I would prefer if you refrained from all that "hugs and kisses" etc., etc. malarky.
You may well carry on like that in Llanddewi Brefi, but down here in masculine, butch, Cardiff we keep that sort of talk for the bedchamber.
I was inclined to include a (wink emoticon) here, but thought better of it !!!!!
Complain about this comment
Re 162
Noah, I just love the way your list of English words contains just one word which is genuinely English. All the others were coined (i.e. contrived, made up) from other European languages:
piano (from Italian)
pistol (via French and German from Czech)
digital (ultimately from Latin)
litre (via French and Latin from Greek)
pomegranate (via Old French from Latin)
computer (ultimately from Latin)
flat (from Old Norse)
turkey (ultimately from Turkish)
pin (from Old English; at last!)
print (via Old French from Latin)
photograph (from Greek)
pornography (from Greek)
ambulance (via French from Latin)
Yes, I'm aware we're talking about derivation here. You see, Noah, these words, including the Welsh ones you mock, all belong to the common stock of words which are part of the universal European heritage we all share. And of course, all, or most, of these words can be found in most European languages, sometimes under the guise of different spellings, just like the Welsh versions, to reflect the different orthographic conventions of the languages concerned, a fact which will not have escaped you as you try to parler francais.
Which brings me to your claim that French is a more useful language than Welsh. This is a load of twaddle as far as Wales is concerned (remember where you're blogging) because:
1) more Welsh people live in Wales than France;
2) more people in Wales speak Welsh than French.
Oh, and BYW, why is your favourite of the moment pornograffi. Just where are you googling exactly these days, Noah?
Complain about this comment
Re my 171 before someone asks, BYW should have been BTW.
Some more for Noah:
Italian pornografia
Finnish pornografia
Spanish pornografia with an acute accent on the i that the bbc doesn't do
French pornographie
German pornographie (did they copy?)
Indonesian pornografi
Romanian pornografie
Russian pornografija (transliterated)
So who's been copying who?
Complain about this comment
Having listened to the BBC last night "What Darwin didn't know", I am even more convinced that language can be set in an evolutionary tree, a tree where the Welsh branch is only kept alive through disproportionate cultural support by a tiny minority who see political benefit for themselves.
wheredowegofromhere .....
You must be a member of this disproportionate cultural support, not able to see the wood for the tree's.
Better a hundred council houses renovated than the output of the "Place-names Advisory Service", part of the The Welsh Language Board.
Complain about this comment
Good morning Wheredowegofromhere.
Message 171/172
First of all may I say how impressed I am by your knowledge of worldwide pornography. Sincerely hope your eyesight hasn't suffered as a result of your intensive(obviously hands-on) study of the subject..
You write. . .
**********************************
Which brings me to your claim that French is a more useful language than Welsh. This is a load of twaddle as far as Wales is concerned (remember where you're blogging) because:
1) more Welsh people live in Wales than France;
2) more people in Wales speak Welsh than French.
***********************************
By a strange quirk of fate, French has proved a far more useful language than Welsh. (Indeed this is not difficult as Welsh is of absolutely no use at all to me)
Each year we spend approximately 3/4 months in France, so you see, that (somewhat flukey)decision all those years ago, was justified.
There is however one part of the language (both French and Welsh) for which I just cannot see any point. . . It is why all nouns in both languages have a 'gender.' Is there ANY logical reason why this should be? What with all the mutations, different spellings, le/la etc., it really does make it much more difficult to learn these languages.
Also extremely grateful for your pointing out some truly amazing facts in (1) and (2)
re Welsh/French language.
It must have taken you many hours of intensive research to come up with such little-known nuggets of information. . . . . .
Complain about this comment
Re 174.
Afternoon Noah.
My detailed knowledge of worldwide pornography was very easy to come about. It's called "googling" and is what your right hand's for (to quote a well-known advert from some years back).
Couldn't agree with you more as far as Welsh/French gender is concerned. And Italian/Spanish/Portuguese/Romanaian/German/Russian bla bla bla if it comes to that; seems English is the exception in this regard and is something it has in common in Europe only with the totally unrelated Hungarian, apparently.
But as a teacher of English as a Foreign Language, I can tell you that English's lack of grammatical gender is equally puzzling to speakers of those languages because they just can't understand WHY we don't have it. Strange that. I suppose it all depends on where you are coming from and where you are going to and what you expect to find when you get there.
And don't get me going on SPELLING. English spelling is just impossible for all non-native speakers, as well as most English-speaking bloggers.
Complain about this comment
Re 170
"your post was a superb example of grammatical dexterity at it's (sic) very best."
- may I return the compliment?
Complain about this comment
Let's just note the pattern here:
i) # 162: Noah makes an incendiary and proposterous claim, using a common urban myth about the Welsh language
ii) # 171 and 172: Wheredowegofromhere (and others) counters the claim with clear evidence
iii) # 164 Noah, rather than acknowledging s/he was wrong, or offering alternative evidence, simply mocks the response for using research.
not the first time the idea of evidence and justified arguments have been swept aside by such people as Noah.
Wheredowegofromhere: ignore Noah and his ilk - he's not interested in the truth.
I'm sure this message board was speaking Welsh before I joined the discussion and they all started speaking English.
Complain about this comment
There's a lot of hoo-hah here concerning the money which is spent on the Welsh language (as if that were a bad thing) - most recently the jibe at the Place Names Advisory Service (164).
Does anybody actually have any figures to put this into context? I.e. what comparative figures are spent on similar aspects of the English language, and (more of a parallel) on various other 'minority' or 'fringe' interests (e.g. opera, theatre, environmental polices or research, other minority language concerns in Britain)?
Without at least (a) a comparative context and (b) sound arguments that such spending is unjustified, these opinions cannot really be given credence as anything other than ill-informed prejudice.
Complain about this comment
#178 accuses #164 of ill-informed prejudice because, as a minimum, a comparative context and sound argument has not been provided.
There is no requirement to provide a specific answer to Bostoniwr, the context and sound argument is in the public domain, evolution, the survival of the fittest, Welsh as a common language in Wales has failed the fitness test.
Following "the Reports of the commissioners of enquiry into the state of education in Wales published in 1847", English superseded Welsh. Not because of prejudice or subjugation or malice, but because there was more information, important information, published in English than in Welsh. It was when the parents of Welsh children realised the future during the 18th century was wrapped in the English language. It was when the parents of Wales decided, irrevocably, that the future was the now long gone British Empire, soon to be replaced by International English of commerce.
With a billion plus English speakers in the world there is little scope for a quarter of a million Welsh speakers to make an impact on the real world. With this in mind, even a single penny spent by any department of The Welsh Language Board to support the Welsh language is miss-spent.
You cannot buck the evolutionary road where the fittest survive, the same applies to the minority languages throughout the world, I predict that eventually there will be a single language used throughout the world, the jury is still out as to which one.
No prejudice.
Complain about this comment
Good evening Bostoniwr.
In your post no. 177 you state the following. . . .
. At 4:14pm on 27 Jan 2009, Bostoniwr wrote:
Let's just note the pattern here:
i) # 162: Noah makes an incendiary and proposterous claim, using a common urban myth about the Welsh language
ii) # 171 and 172: Wheredowegofromhere (and others) counters the claim with clear evidence
iii) # 164 Noah, rather than acknowledging s/he was wrong, or offering alternative evidence, simply mocks the response for using research.
***********************************
I am flattered indeed to have my humble offerings analysed in such a fair and impartial manner.
i) 162. You must excuse my incendiary and preposterous claims. But don't you think that things might be a little dull without the odd inflammatory and outragious claim?
I do love a common urban myth, particularly about the Welsh language. Bostoniwr, you are on shaky ground here.
Are you saying that no committees,organisations, etc., have ever created, thought up, composed, or in any way had anything to do with any words whatsoever in the Welsh language?
If you are making such a somewhat optimistic claim, could you please inform us all just how these new Welsh words came into being? How could there be a universal acceptance of a particular word, suddenly appearing in use (and dictionaries) without some element of control and supervision. You see Bostoniwr, compared to the normal slow progression/acceptance of words, the words (for instance) that I so enjoy pointing out, have appeared virtually overnight.
How come the words , and of course their uniform spelling, (from Abergavenny to Amlwch) have become wholly standardized in years or months?
Surely you must agree that the hand of officialdom has had a major part to play in all this. After all, the powers that be, (Welsh language supporters to a man and woman) would surely not be too keen to admit to any of this going on. . .Just think of the fun cynics like me could have if those people were forced to admit their role in the creation of new Welsh words.
ii) nos. 171/172 see above.
iii) no. 164. This was not my message, nothing to do with me.
Bostoniwr, I post on here primarily for a laugh. I, (and many others) have no wish to get involved in everlasting debates or discussions, grinding out point after point.
Take it from me, no matter how expert you might be on a topic, I've seen a complete ignoramus destroy a 'serious debater' with just one flash of humour.
I am that ignoramus, constantly searching for that flash of humour.
Complain about this comment
This is all getting a bit heated, so to lighten the tone, here is something which made me laugh about the language theme. But not just yet...
"You cannot buck the evolutionary road where the fittest survive, the same applies to the minority languages throughout the world, I predict that eventually there will be a single language used throughout the world, the jury is still out as to which one."
Sorry, Stonemason, but this argument, while logical, does have some flaws.
1/ We could as easily argue that everyone in the world should capitulate to learning Mandarin Chinese as this is the world's most popular language..
2/ Size isn't everything... The dinosaurs were certainly the top of the tree for a while, but when the comet hit, it was the other animals which were far fewer in their number which came to dominate the tree of evolution thereafter.
3/ Diversity is key. Whether in evolution of animals, or in the business world, survival of the fittest depends on having variation.
Microsoft is 'top dog' at the moment, but Google may kill the PC and usher in a new paradigm which wouldn't have existed if MS were an even more dominant monopoly than it is now.
Likewise in evolution, variation allows the animal and plant kingdom to adapt and expand to changed circumstances. If your theory was right, Welsh would have died out years ago, and as Dafydd Iwan puts it 'Despite everything and everyone, we are still here..' [okay, it sounds better in the original Welsh, as played at Scarlets games..]
Now for the joke. While living in a large provincial urban jungle not a million miles away from the Principality, I was stunned by the number of languages one could have the council tax bill delivered in. So to be a bit cheeky I wrote to the council to 'complain' that it wasn't available in Welsh.
I got a response which, whilst not exactly saying that it would be added to the list of 'official languages', did make clear that if it were necessary to provide a translation to enable 'services to be accessed' they would endeavour to do so... Made me smile ! BG
Complain about this comment
Noah: "I am that ignoramus, constantly searching for that flash of humour"
Let's hope you find that flash one day!
The process of coining new words and terms is an interesting one in all languages and it works in a similar manner in all languages. I.e. somebody invents a word, it goes public and it is either accepted, adapted or rejected by popular use.
There is an 'official' hand in this in all languages, too, be this official standards of orthography, Universities, school spelling tests, Academies (as in France), or indeed other kinds of committees (as in Wales, Finland, the Netherlands, Sweden, etc., etc.). The entire process is complex and intriguing, but at the end of the day, slow acceptance by a literate public is the final stamp on all language use.
Most of the recent coinings in Welsh, in the field of computing and so forth, have taken years to be accepted and to feel natural, and in the interim it has been normal for the English word to be used as a stopgap, until it assumed the status of slang - such as 'printio' - this also is a process observed across Europe, and was undoubtedly the way it worked in English while it was itself a minority language.
I should perhaps apologise for ignoring my own advice to Wheredowegofromhere!
Complain about this comment
Did you know that the biggest growth area for Welsh medium education is Grangetown? This fact can be verified by Cardiff Council, where the nation's most diverse ethnic community is choosing a bilingual education for their children. The vast majority of the parents are non Welsh speaking and from many different ethnic backgrounds.
I am lucky enough to live in this culturally exciting community, a place that represents the sort of Wales that gives me real hope for the future of my nation. Now, my statement might or might not appear to be relevant to many of the comments on this blog item, but I hope that it gives a small dose of reality to a few of the more nasty anti-language comments from fellow bloggers.
Complain about this comment
Dear Bostoniwr
Your 182 finds me in complete agreement.
And agreed, at times it's very difficult not to reply to some posts. But don't worry too much about Noah. He ain't all bad. And he did come clean in his 180 about some of his motives for posting here. Try asking him who he roots for during the 6 Nations if he happens to be on his boat in the South of France. It couldn't possibly be the French, now, could it?
You have to give him credit for one thing. A bit of humour goes a long way, a piece of advice that unfortunately some people blogging here, on both sides of the debate, have completely forgotten, if they ever even knew it. And it's something which Betsan, bless her, tries hard to redress.
But when the dinner bell goes and it's all out into the playground again, it's every man and woman for him/herself.
Complain about this comment
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Stonemason
You talk of the 1847 Blue Books report, and yet claim that the subsequent decline of Welsh was "Not because of prejudice or subjugation or malice". How do you explain this contradiction? The 1847 report was put together by non-Welsh-speaking Anglican Englishmen who were linguistically, historically and denominationally biased against a mainly Welsh-speaking Nonconformist Wales.
This was a point when the majority of the population of Wales still spoke Welsh as a first language.
The subsequent massive problems with the status and continuation of Welsh came about precisely because the 1870 Education Act passed by Westminster made no provision for education in any language other than English (the elementary education which became compulsory in England and Wales by 1880).
This was an Act passed by Westminster, not voted for by any parents. Of course there was some support for such a move, but had it not been for conscious decisions by parents to send their children to Sunday School, where the Welsh-medium literate instruction of centuries continued, or to found their own Welsh-medium schools, the official decision to promote English alone would have had worse effects than it did.
People talk here of 'survival of the fittest', 'natural decline', etc. That's nonsense: the biggest body-blow to Welsh in recent history was the imposition of universal compulsory English-medium education post-1880, and it's that wrong which is slowly being righted now.
but because there was more information, important information, published in English than in Welsh. It was when the parents of Welsh children realised the future during the 18th century was wrapped in the English language. It was when the parents of Wales decided, irrevocably, that the future was the now long gone British Empire, soon to be replaced by International English of commerce.
Complain about this comment
Interesting looks like one of my posts is waiting to be moderated - looks like being nasty to Microsoft (a convicted monopolist) is enough to block it.
Complain about this comment
*mapeex 159 I would like to know how exactly you are going to proove to me you work on the census. If this is how UK civil services work than I'm glad I'm for self-determination then. I thought that people who worked for civil services were not to show bias? People say they are fluent English on the census, that does not mean they are perfect in it, I sure as hell ain't.
English may be used globally, but like I said other cultures around the world are not willing to give up there languages, so why should Wales, especially since it is one of the oldest living languages in the world.
*Noah_assembly 162 how hilarious. Do you not think that the same thing can be said about English? Look in the English dictionary and you will find that most of the words in the English language are from other languages. Try it, maybe you'll laugh at that too. A lot of languages around the world borrow from other languages. Let's look at a few...entrepeneur, cul de sac, restaurant, cafe, do you want me to carry on? I learnt French over Welsh too, but mind you I didn't want to go to school in the first place; but I don't use French now, most French learners here don't. Children learn some subjects that they'll never use when they leave, but in today's Wales, there are better prospects for children if they learn the language and again the report in 1999 confirmed that Welsh medium education outperforms English medium. Two languages are better than one and learning another makes it easier for you to learn more. Oh and for your information, computer is cyfrifiadur. *170 nice to see a bit of homophobic attitude there. By the way, you think Cardiff is like that, well I'm a Cardiff boy and there is no better gay scene than what we have here and do you know what? I can happily hold my boyfriend's hand down Queen St and most people could not care and most of my straight male friends are comfortable enough to not have 'feared' views such as yours; welcome to the 21st century. *174 do you really think it is just French and Welsh that have gender differences? Many languages do, again should we not go with the majority as you would say?
*niloc5959 165 I'm sure you'd want to see much of Herefordshire, Shropshire and the other border counties of England return in to Welsh hands then???
*FiDafydd 167 good argument there, glad I'm not the only one that believes he's a humerous fella!
*TheStoneMason 173 better supporting a culture than bombing another culture (Iraq), better also than building nuclear subs, than supporting the Olympics that has taken £100m from Welsh funding and is not given much back to us. *179 who said anything about Wales being Welsh speaking only? It is about creating a bilingual nation where English would still be spoken by all, but we don't lose our culture. And it was the law that made Welsh parents teach their kids English as the kids were cained in school if they used their mother tongue. The Blue Books also claimed that Welsh people were drunks and slept around; do you agree with this claim too?
Well, thanks for another thrilling session on the blog, but unfortunately have to go and campaign on other matters now. Nos da pawb. (Thought I'd give a sample of my little bit of knowledge).
Complain about this comment
Cymro82
It is obvious you have not read the "the Reports of the commissioners of enquiry into the state of education in Wales published in 1847", I have read Part 3: North Wales, comprising Anglesey, Carnarvon, Denbigh, Flint, Meirioneth and Montgomery.
I have not read The Treachery of the Blue Books by by the author R. J. Derfel. It has been explained to me by a Welsh speaker.
There are a number of paragraphs in the report that criticise the Welsh people for drinking and many paragraphs describing sex before marriage, also many paragraphs describing the poor education.
The author of The Treachery ..... R. J. Derfel. wrote a series of poems that were eventually published as "The Treachery of the Blue Books", as a poet he used those elements that he deemed central to the investigation, he did not write about the outcome of the investigation which was the establishment of state education with standards, delivered in English.
Did the people of Wales sleep around as you put it, well it seems some did, as did the people of Essex, Somerset etc. Were they drunks, as before some were, what else was there in their lives, nothing much has changed has it.
The "Welsh Not", a bloated Welsh Nationalist Icon of oppression, without such icons there would be little to write about, as a separatist that is, would there Cymro82.
Complain about this comment
The report that you mention Stonemason cause outrage when it was published and I don't think anyone would now claim it was anything other than a biased report which had as its central message that the Welsh were a backward nation because they were 1. predominantly non conformist
2. Welsh speaking.
English became the majority language in Wales because it was banned from public life and from education. These policies inculcated a belief in many Welsh people that the possession of the ability to speak Welsh was a mark of ignorance and a barrier to advancement. Unfortunately for some this attitude still prevails. If you want the historical context for this I would recommend you read Neighbours from Hell, by Mike Parker, an English man living in Wales.
Now all that is wanted is the basic powers that just about every devolved legislature has in the world over culture. See the Samish parliament in Finland or the cultural council of the German speaking population in Belgium.
No one's right will be infringed but rights currently withheld from a section of the population will be restored.
Complain about this comment
Message 188.....
There are ways and means, and before you become too set in your ignorance, working as a temporary enumerator doe NOT confer 'civil service' status. No more than a temp delivery man makes a Xmas postie a Postman.
To clarify the matter of English on the census, rather a fatuous comment is that from you, and your admittance of your own failings in English, often proven by bad grammar and poor spelling, does nothing for your argument. Far better to leave out such self deprecating remarks, don't you think?
However, English is spoken by 100% of the population (with the exception of foreign nationals and those belonging to ethnic minorities) including the Cymraeg speaking Welsh.
That is a number approaching 61 millions of our peoples.
I live in the year 2009, not 1245, and I practice living in the REAL world, not some fanciful semi mythological past, which is PAST.
Over and done with, Kaput, finished, and until this current crop of miserable nationalistic fools came to the fore, with the complicity of a government or two wishing for a quiet life, giving a shred of hope to these fools, Wales was also heading into the future, untrammelled by a albatross Language Act, and all that has latched on in it's wake.
To go to the remark about 'culture' I would like some cast iron evidence of this invisible 'culture' you lot are always banging on about.
Let me ask,... does your wife live her life wearing the clothes of Rebbecca?
Do your folk still get wed by 'jumping the broomstick'?
Do you still live in medieval round houses, wearing homespun garb, made form goat hair and crudely processed leathers?
Go to weekly country markets on your horse drawn cart?
Grow your own crops and breed your own animals?
Do your own harvesting?, slaughter your own meat?
Or do you wear conventional clothing, watch western TV programming, (as I am sure very few, according to the Audience measuring figures actually watch S4C,) follow the road to Tesco or Sainsbury, to buy, in common with the rest of us, internationally produced food items, clothing, electrical and electronic goods.
And of course, not to leave out, getting there and back in an internationally manufactured automobile.
All of which decries your wish for a return to the 'good ol' days ' of being a Cymro.
You have got as far as you can, within reason, and believe me, the likelihood of you taking MY country down the path you seem to favour is so unlikely, as to never happen.
Language, as I have said before, is being used as a weapon to gain supremacy in Wales, but what you don't seem to understand is that not all in Wales, 'possibly' as many as 80 odd % will not follow down the path you wish to steer us along.
We are far too set in our western ways.
If English happens to be the means to our settled way, then so be it, but it will be IMPOSSIBLE to drag us ALL into your perceived Cymru, we will not wear such a possibility.
Get used to it.
Complain about this comment
Re 191
I think that contribution must be the most laughable yet. If you believe there only one homogeneous western culture, then that's your loss. And your definitions of culture are odd to say the least. You claim that the Welsh language plays no part in a culture (you've said this in other posts), yet because English is so dominant it unites all other cultures.
By the way, I'm still waiting for you to answer 158.
Come to think of it, ArglwyddBeddgelert hasn't replied to 168 either ...
Complain about this comment
If English unites all other cultures how come I see the warmongers of International Politics conducting baiting sessions through the medium of English?
Mappexx, "the likelihood of you taking MY country...."
Forgive me sire, I did not realise I was reading the comments of royalty.
All hail King Mappexx.
p.s. Someone better tell Lizzie she's been overthrown.
p.p.s. Your use of cymro, cymraeg and cymru are so patronising when thrown into a monologue of english just makes you look like a bit of a numpty, if the truth be told.
Complain about this comment
Lyn_Thomas,
Thanks for the pointer to "Neighbours from Hell, by Mike Parker", I will read the book as soon as I can get a copy.
I have read part 3 of the facsimile, on line, and can report it is a good collection of facts and figures that might go a long way in answering a similar parliamentary question today, in parts it highlighted certain social aspects of Welsh life that offence could be taken at the time. There was a definite bias in the stated opinion, but we might remember the opinions were of Welsh people making judgements about other Welsh people, not the labouring classes making judgement, but the labouring classes being judged, the English element of the three reports were collators.
Since reading your comment mid morning I have asked 14 people to tell me if they had heard of the "The Treachery of the Blue Books" and what it was about, none knew, I wonder how many people in Queen Street would have known this afternoon, so 150 years on why is it relevant, why is it being kept alive as a reference for anything other than a snapshot of life during the 18th century.
I won't disagree with what you have written, but would ask the question "can it still be relevant today except as a historical reference, it is being used as a political tool?"
Lastly your .....
"No one's right will be infringed but rights currently withheld from a section of the population will be restored."
I'm not sure, I'm very suspicious when laws are required for cultural reasons.
Complain about this comment
*TheStoneMason you speak as if the Treachory of the Blue Books was a fictinal fairy tale. The report you speak about created souly by Englishmen, who were indeed ignorant that their neighbours have another language and religion. They insulted all of the Welsh speaking population not just 'some'. You say that their report is similar to that of today? Or just the part regarding drunks? Nice to see that you are insulting not only the people of the past, but that too of now here in Wales. There is a drinking culture in Wales, as there is across the UK, but I would not resort to saying we are all drunks.
You also state that you wanted to know how many people in Queen St would know of such a book, well I don't know about you, but when I was a child, before devolution unfortunately, I wasn't taught any Welsh History, nothing. This is the case in many nations where a more powerful nation controls a small nation. Remember in Iran they teach their children that the Holocaust never happened; do you also believe that they should teach this. You state that we bring up past arguments, but this is part of Wales' history and culture; something I'm pretty sure you'd like to erase from every Welsh person's minds.
*mapexx all I was stating was that there are people out there that state they are fluent in English, doesn't mean they are grammatically correct; but they still tick fluent. This is also the case for some Welsh speakers; but it is there choice on whether or not they tick that box. I'm fairly sure that you were not in many Welsh speakers' homes on the day of the census and watched whether they ticked the box for fluency and then listened to check that they were; pure tripe.
Again I will put to you that it is not us who are living in the past, but you. We believe in equality to make the world a better place for everyone to live in. You, I have no doubt, are very critical of equality and are scared of minorities for you believe that they will engulf yours as theirs had many times before from yours. This is not what they want, they just want freedom. I am not a Welsh speaker, but am very much a liberal and if people are being wronged in society, then I will be there to fight their case. You are not only talking about killing Welsh speaker's culture, but mine and every other English speaking Welsh person's culture too; it is part of our heritage.
Your argument about culture is hilarious; 'Let me ask,... does your wife live her life wearing the clothes of Rebbecca?' Let me educate you a little, the people who wore dresses in protest of unfair toll roads were men, not women; bet you disagree with these men too; 'bring back the toll gates' I hear you say. There's many aspects of Welsh culture still here today; one of the biggest is the Eisteddfodau (I believe I spelt it correct :) ). This is not just the culture of Welsh speakers, but English speakers too. I participated every year in the Eisteddfod at my English medium school. It helped us appreciate stories, poems, song and dance.
What you need to get used to is the fact that you are ignorant, very much indeed. I am a young 26, if my fellow students still think of me as young :) I do shop in the 'trendy' shops of Cardiff, London and when I go, Paris, but come rugby day I will be wearing my Welsh shirt and singing our Welsh anthem...in Welsh. I watch and adore American production and believe it or not 'British'. I also love watching Japanese, French and other international movies; but I do love to watch S4C as well; you know, a bit of culture that is new to me hasn't hurt me. I buy food produced abroad, but I love eating Welsh cakes, Welsh cheese, drinking Welsh vodka and liquer and many other Welsh produce; not just because it tastes good, but is also good for the environment and better for my health.
You may think that you can stop minorities from gaining equality, but you are wrong. Our elected members have agreed that a new Welsh language measure is needed to strengthen the language; it is only a few anglisized ones that are holding it back; but we will never stop fighting for rights until we live in a fair society for all. Lastly you say this 80% again are against; I am part of this 80% and I couldn't disagree with you more and I only know a few English speakers that agree with you, but most of my friends and family; north and south, east and west, Welsh speakers and English speakers that I know are fortunately disagreeing with you. So you have to live up to the fact that you are indeed the loser; don't worry though; there's a lot more English monoglot states out there for you...wait a minute, sorry I was wrong; try and name me one that has 100% English speakers with no minorities of peoples who have been born and bred there but with a seperate tongue??? America, has a lot of Spanish first and second language speakers, along with many other languages; Australia, have the language also of the natives there; Canada, many first and second langauge French speakers and even England that has Welsh, Scots, Gaelic, Irish Gaelic, Manx Gaelic and Cornish speakers (apparently part of England). There's no running from bilingualism; sorry.
Complain about this comment
Cymro82
"the Treachery of the Blue Books" is fiction, a series of poems, based upon a Westminster report which in the grater part was a very accurate description of Welsh education during the mid 18th century, the fiction is the poetic license used by the author R. J. Derfel to describe the one percent, if that, of the report that could be considered insulting.
The sadness is these people who reported the failure of education at the time, the biased Welsh witnesses, had not recognised that Welsh education was non-existent prior to the call by Birmingham MP, himself Welsh, for the investigation. If there had been education the report would not have been required.
Your ....
"Nice to see that you are insulting not only the people of the past, but that too of now here in Wales."
If you took the time to read the words .....
I wrote "Did the people of Wales sleep around as you put it, well it seems some did, as did the people of Essex, Somerset etc. Were they drunks, as before some were, what else was there in their lives, nothing much has changed has it."
I commented on the whole of the UK with regard to drink and morality, nothing has changed, and if you travel to the area's of poverty you will witness these things, beat your chest as much as you like, it's poverty that is the crime not language, if you took the trouble to read the original report you would realise it.
An old student of 26 you might be, try applying the methods of investigation taught to elicit the truth .....
..... a scientific approach to the real world.
Complain about this comment
Re 196
Oh dear, Welsh history really is a closed book to some. Is TheStonemason unaware or just ignoring the fact that by the 1760's Griffith Jones, Llanddowror, had set up 3000 of his schools in Wales and that the Welsh working people were probably the most literate anywhere in the world?
The really sad thing about the Blue Books is that it was the 'kind of education' that the Commissioners objected to - just as some people, many on this site, still hold the same prejudices.
Complain about this comment
message 195....
I am well aware that the Hosts of Rebbecca were MEN, but in case you are twp, which I am getting more convinced by the day that you are, the dress they were reputed to wear were WOMENS, and supposedly the customary dress of the region.
I did say wearing the dress of Rebbecca, as an example I could have said 'national dress' but refrained because I know full well you would have jumped on me saying that I was recognising Wales a 'nation'.instead of my usual description of Wales being just another region of the UK.
Hence the reason I did not say 'National dress'
As for4 the matter of language and bilingualism, yes I suppose there is something in that, but as I said before, I live in 2009, not 1245, and cannot see the value that utilising a pretty 'small' language can bring.
French German Russian Chinese, even Arabic and Japanese, but Cymraeg ...pleeeeease?
IT has no value whatsoever in the big wide world that I live in.
So you buy stuff in international shops, you eat generally available foods so what?
Many people eat Welsh cakes, but have no feeling for the Welsh part of the title, they just like the taste. You are on a very sticky wicket young fella, and as you get a bit older you will see just how worthless your attachment to, and involvement in, anything to do with this false and phony culture.
Its all puff and blow, unsubstantial, and pushed forwards by a load of antagonistic people who sense some sort of unachievable end to their game.
NO one is attempting to stop you watching S4C, or learning the language if you wish, but please refrain from calling it bilingualism, it may be of some valuable use to those raised speaking it, just as applies across the globe to other ethnic and local languages, but most of those who have opted to take it up, and even worse force their kids through the education system using it, when they do not use it themselves, are attention seeking clowns.
They have NO attachment to Wales, and generally speaking, as has been recognised by various research bodies such as Estyn, most of those educated in it, drop out of it as soon as they leave the school environment, and once out of education, unless they take up employment for some branch of the Assembly/WAG, never use it ,or even find use for it again, probably for the rest of their lives.
Typically for a young person, you tend to be rather pedantic in your reading capacity, you see things in black and white ,when they are in fact a complete spectrum from white through grey to black,.
In other words you are not capable of 'reading between the lines ' for implied meanings.
Very pertinent when attempting to read between the lines of emanations from down in Cardiff Bay and those who are so very emphatic about all things supposedly to do with the Cymraeg side of things.
Complain about this comment
message 195.... additional response,
There may be some whose language being English yet cannot put three words together, never mind in the correct order, spelled or in grammatical niceness, but that is not what was meant by the comments re the claims for Cymraeg fluency.
You are well aware of what was meant, but if you are not so aware, then your extra years of studentship are wasted on you.
As I said before there are many shades of grey between black and white, and it behoves you to understand that in order to comprehend some aspects of written English, you should become aware of that grey scale in the language.
But to clarify in case your comprehension is that bad...
Many claimed fluency for the language, but their 'fluency' stretched as far as knowing a few words, the meanings of a few more, such as place names and no further.
Capability in grammar, spelling, and wide ranging understanding of the principles of the language, and the depth of knowledge in respect of where a completely competent fluency could take them, was simply lacking, and is so right at this moment in time.
Others, not in any way connected to myself, have calculated that of all those who claimed fluency in the 2001 census, less than 2 or 3 % stated the truth.
Carry that on, even allowing 10%, and you get a very much lower figure than is claimed by those with a vested interest in promoting the take up of the language.
I have also heard it said that, even in strong Cymraeg speaking areas, there is not quite the enthusiasm that is claimed wherever politico assemblies gather.
Complain about this comment
FiDafydd,
You might like to read the text on line,
http://www.llgc.org.uk/index.php?id=thebluebooks,
and remember what your Saunders Lewis wrote - "the most important nineteenth-century historical documents we possess".
Complain about this comment
FiDafydd , your #197 .....
"..... by the 1760's Griffith Jones, Llanddowror, had set up 3000 of his schools in Wales ....."
Church schools, unfortunately during the period up to the publication of "the Reports of the commissioners of enquiry into the state of education in Wales published in 1847", they fell into what can only be described as non-functioning.
The reasons that Catherine the Great, the Empress of Russia, commissioned a report on the church schools has all but disappeared.
Read the Blue Books, rid yourself of dogma, the truth is out there.
Complain about this comment
#199 Mapex:
I was wondering how you, not being fluent in Welsh yourself, are in a position to judge the competence of others.
Also, isn't there a contradiction in your position when you claim
1a) if you're not perfectly fluent you're not a Welsh-speaker,
implying:
1b) if you're not perfectly fluent in a given language then you shouldn't be counted as a 'speaker' of that language
while at the same time you state (in somewhat strained grammar):
2a) "There may be some whose language being English yet cannot put three words together, never mind in the correct order"
implying therefore (from 2a and 1b) that
2b) These are not English-speakers.
Nonetheless you believe
3) that 100% of the inhabitants of Wales speak English.
***
And Stonemason #201 "the truth is out there"
More's the pity that it's not "in here"!
Remember that one of the things which the Blue Books reported on was the supposed insufficiency of the quality of education given in the schools which then existed. Ergo there were schools, even if they weren't the kind which the Anglicans wanted to see.
The picture of education in Wales at that point was far from monolithic, but included a whole host of various contexts and situations.
The report, while putting their fingers on a number of real deficiencies, can hardly be seen as a transparent document since it would dismiss any Welsh-language literacy out of hand.
Education certainly needed improving, across the whole of the island, but it is implausible from any enlightened perspective that the fundamentally biased Blue Books (and the following disastrous Education Act of 1870) were the best way to do it.
Complain about this comment
Bostoniwr,
After I stop laughing, when reading the comments in the Blue Books, comments such as those of The Rev. Daniel Rees who wrote " .... neglect of Divine ordinances, breach of the seventh commandment, drunkenness ..."
..... can you not see him at a desk with a starched high collar and black suite, indignation pouring out his pen, in the 21st century there is no place for this man, but in history, well it's history, and you could write a poem as did R. J. Derfel .......
..... but lets not heap to much criticism because the same book records .....
................................................
Scholars of the three counties of Camarthenshire, Glamorganshire and Pembrokeshire.
Attendance at school.
Less than 1 year. ..... 40.9 percent
More than 1 year less than 2 years ..... 24.1 percent
More than 2 years less than 3 years ..... 14.0 percent
More than 3 years less than 4 years ..... 7.6 percent
More than 4 years ..... 4.5 percent
Teachers
Total trained ..... 12.5 percent
Total untrained ..... 87.5 percent
............................................
...... and FiDafydd wrote of the Welsh labouring classes during the mid 19th century .....
"probably the most literate anywhere in the world?"
75 percent of children with less than 2 years at school, 87 percent of teacher without training.
The report doesn't mock the Welsh people, it's a lament, it's a call for education, albeit in English ........
And better the Education Act of 1870 than the incompetent church schools.
Complain about this comment
#203 Stonemason
"The report doesn't mock the Welsh people"
oh, come on - beyond the large amount of it which is of genuine sociological and historical interest, surely no one can deny the flagrant bias (Anglican, landed, Anglophone) or fail to sense the delight with which scorn is poured on the Welsh in the "juicy bits" (As John Bwlchllan termed them). A bit like this discussion actually! ;)
Nonconformist meetings being used for sexual misbehaviour, etc. (as reported by Anglicans, of course); the Welsh language the language of slavery (as reported by Anglicans and landed gentry, or course); the Welsh as innately immoral and sexually lax (ditto).
These "juicy bits" are overflowing with mockery and innate distain, and the argument can surely be made that it was in a spirit of such distain and ignorance that the 1870 Education Act was made (though couched in terms of improvement and progress, of course, much of which sentiment was no doubt genuine, though misguided).
It took over a century to seriously begin to undo the damage, and the damage is still there, psychologically as well as in the social infrastructure.
In fairness to FiDafydd #197, wasn't he talking about the 18thC, rather than the 19th? He is entirely correct in this.
Complain about this comment
Bostoniwr,
I don't feel at all psychologically damaged, and I don't know anybody who is disturbed by the Blue Books, how many people are sad enough to enjoy reading the report I wonder, though I can accept some might still be offended if they read the report and are of a certain disposition.
For myself I find the use of the report to support reasons for Independence to be extremely disturbing.
Complain about this comment
Stonemason #205
For the psychological aspect, have you read H.T. Edwards' detailed historical analyses, well-established and generally accepted?
Your:
"I find the use of the report to support reasons for Independence to be extremely disturbing."
I think I missed that step in the argument - could you repeat it for me?
Complain about this comment
Bostoniwr ,
Your "I think I missed that step in the argument - could you repeat it for me?"
Different blog I'm afraid, Plaid hooligans used the Blue Books as supportive of English subjugation.
Complain about this comment
The blue books are about subjugation, I don't know of any serious historian who views them as an unbiased record of Welsh life - they are a vehicle for Anglican domination. Heaping all the woes of Wales on the backwardness of the people because they were 1. Not Anglican and 2. Welsh speaking. It is a fact that the literacy rate in Wales was higher than that of England under the circulating schools, but that the people were literate in the language of the country, the language that the vast majority spoke, which was Welsh.
Your instance on using the contents of the blue books as fact and a true reflection of life in Wales marks you down as a troll Stonemason, not a historian.
Complain about this comment
Lyn_Thomas
I refer you to my #203.
I have not been called that before,
I continue to read the Blue Books, hysterical history with so many facts and figures.
History belongs to the recorder, always has, always will, even the Beeb has re-written Welsh history on its web site over the last 18 months.
Complain about this comment
With apologies for the long post, here are some quotes from H.G. Williams' article, "Nation State versus National Identity: State and Inspectorate in Mid-Victorian Wales" in History of Education Quarterly, Vol. 40, No. 2 (Summer, 2000), pp. 145-168.
He discusses the figure of Rev. Harry Longueville Jones, the first HMI of Church schools for the Principality as a national
entity, appointed to the post by James Kay-Shuttleworth (who was unfortunately replaced by R.R.W. Lingen (commissioner of the Blue Books) during Jones' first year in the post).
Jones, says Williams, presented what may be considered "the case for the defence" (where the Blue Books were the "prosecution". He was "the opponent of an English domestic imperialism in its attempts to manipulate the evolving system of state-aided schools in Wales as its leveraging institution."
"In defending what he regarded as the best of the pre-1846 system of schooling, Jones singled out its teachers for special praise.
"Though they were untrained in contemporary teaching methods, he found most of them dedicated and conscientious, with a few specially alert and lively, and particularly gifted in one branch or other of their work, whether in language,
mathematics, or music.
"Far from being the cruel ignoramuses hated by their pupils as they were portrayed by the commissioners, he found them popular and well liked, some of them having served their communities for a lifetime.
"[He found a few ineffectual, but] he commended the majority as having genuine qualities which might be developed to good effect, given the kind of teacher training which the Church of England intended to provide at two recently established institutions, namely, Trinity College, opened at Carmarthen in 1848 and the institution opened at Caernarvon in 1846, but not given formal collegiate status until 1854.
[...]
"The "hungry forties" gave way to the age
of equipoise in the 1850s and 60s. Despite the changing conditions Lingen found Jones's ideas [of cultural diversity and promoting bilingualism] quite unacceptable, for he [Lingen] had labeled the Welsh language as the prime cause of Welsh backwardness, a barrier to social and moral improvement which should be removed as quickly as possible."
"Jones believed in cultural diversity based both on a scholarly appreciation of Welsh culture and on practical experience of educative processes in Welsh schools. Lingen on the other hand, as a civil servant increasingly divorced from the reality of the schools."
Finally, Jones' work was smothered by Lingen, and Jones suffered in 1863 a collapse and a stroke which forced him from his work.
Williams concludes:
"Lingen was able to impose a regime on the Principality that was indistinguishable from that in England and to do so virtually without challenge for almost half a century. Branded as culturally inferior and socially
debilitating, the Welsh language was banned from its schools altogether,
at least in any official capacity.
"It was not even sanctioned as a medium for teaching English more effectively. It became the object of abuse and contempt and Welsh children were ridiculed and humiliated for speaking their mother tongue.
"As a result teachers employed parrot-like rote methods to make sure that their pupils were able to satisfy the mechanical requirements of the Revised Code, though the effect of most of what they "learned" was meaningless.
"The opportunity of giving Wales its own educational system in the 1850s and 1860s as distinctive perhaps as that of Scotland was lost, and in many parts of Wales there arose a clear dichotomy between the alien culture of the schools and the native culture of the communities they were intended to serve."
Complain about this comment
message 210....
Sod the blue books, we are now over a century away from the society that they were applicable to, and to use such puerile nonsense to justify the arguments extant in the Wales of today, is just about as infantile as you can get.
Get a life, get real, and stop scrabbling about in the past, to which your present bears no rational relationship.
You have had nearly 70 years of the British welfare state, universal suffrage for all since the 1920's and you still carry on as if your precious language and region was about to be eradicated.
Get one thing straight, if it was not for the tolerance, even occasional support, of successive governments over that 70 year period, making all sorts of funds available to support the language, and ensure a degree, however small, of regional self governance, you would have neither language, or any sort of Welsh home rule, today.
Complain about this comment
# 211 mapexx,
Your "we are now over a century away from the society that they were applicable to, and to use such puerile nonsense to justify the arguments extant in the Wales of today, is just about as infantile as you can get"
Could you offer a standard, then, of how many years are allowed to pass before events become irrelevant and history becomes 'puerile'?
What shall we say - 5 years? 20? 50? Your own lifetime?
Your argument seems inconsistent since you say to begin with that discussing the Blue Books is 'puerile' and 'infantile' since it is "over a century" in the past, but then you claim that the history "since the 1920's" is of intense relevance, though we are nearly a century away from that, too.
So is 100 years your cut-off point?
But weren't you yourself discussing the Celts and the Beaker People a wee while ago on a different thread (Betsan Powys' "Buckets...")?
There you say, "I also do as I have asked others to do, and that is to extrapolate and interpret across a wide range of historical opinion."
Shall we say 3-5000 years, then (as long as the interpretation suits Mapexx)?
Is it perhaps not the period of the history which you consider 'puerile', but rather the nature of the facts? You perhaps don't like the 'wrong kind of history', the kind of history which raises important questions.
To that your response must be "Sod [it]".
Complain about this comment
The treason of the Blue Books still has resonances today. To deny so is to deny reality. Is helped solidify official attitudes to the Language that only changed within the last 40 years. It also helped brand the language in the minds of many in Wales as the mark of ignorance. An attitude which is shown by several on these forums. IF there are language extremists they are the ones denying Welsh speakers their rights.
Complain about this comment
Message 212....
I never mentioned history in reference to the welfare state, I simple indicated it has been operating for at least 60 years. I made no claims, other than it exists. I was not attempting to make issue of it's existence.
Historical records are one thing, using them to further an invalid argument are something entirely different, had it not been yourself (if I recall correctly) that said the Celts came here over 5000 years ago I wouldn't have even got into that sidetrack.
That is why I stated that such use of history is puerile.
As I have said many times history is bunk, but I suppose I must justify that by saying the inappropriate use of historical data is a matter of it being bunk, simple date usage is of value as long as the idea is not to raise historical brownie points to support a no longer vaible cause or case.
A very Cymraeg way of utilising history, to stretch the argument until something snaps. At least as far as the arguments on this and other similar blogs are concerned.
Obviously there is an inate inability to separate the gold from the dross in such use of history.
213...
If you acknowledge the last 40 years have dispensed with the attitudes you claim were entrenched by the 'Blue Books' , then there is no longer ANY jsutification for raising reference to them.
Why not go for the Flat Earth or the Earth being the centre of the universe philosophies?
Those have just as much validity as the Blue Books, seeing that you think their relevance is now passe.
For one moment I thought you were capable of reading and comprehending, but it seems I was mistaken.. for why you may ask?
Because you too finish your messages with that perpetual sting in the tail, about those who are not for the language, but must automatically be against it.
Get this, we are not against it, what we are against is the enforcement into OUR daily lives of the divisive aspects of it, one very important one being this 'LCO' we are currently discussing.
As far as most are concerned, it can sink or swim, it is a matter of complete indifference to me, and others; I suspect the 80% who do not speak it as well, their indifference speaks volumes, even though they remain, at present, silent on the matter.
Complain about this comment
Mapexx:
1. "if I recall correctly"
- the answer to that one is easy! :)
2. "history is bunk"
- explains perhaps your problem with recall!
3. "we are not against it" ... "we ... our ... we"
Your majesty!
Complain about this comment
Message 215......
I guess you must be trying to make some sort of point, but it baffles the hell out of me just what it could be.
It would appear, not only ' history is bunk,' but so is the rubbish you spout also' bunk'.
Complain about this comment
Wales, like Scotland, Northen Ireland, the North East and the South West have got major structural problems.
Some have defective economies massively dependent on state spending for their sustainability; others have major dislocating factors like seasonal tourism, to deal with.
Wales is non-viable, sustained in its living standards by transfer payments from the rest of the UK. In this they are like the Appalachian communities in the US, the communes and villages in central France; and so on.
Two things they do not need and cannot afford: a never ending battle within the legislature over the non-issue of language and more barriers to entrepreneurial activity in the Principaility.
Complain about this comment
View these comments in RSS