State of Play
Home from work today to find my daughter - already growing less curious about her new toys - playing with a cardboard box. She'd asked for a square to be cut out of one side and was playing 'news'.
With her five year old head popping out through the 'screen' it went like this:
"Hello. This is the news. A lot of people are dying this year already so watch out for bombs - ok?"
A private intrusion into a political blog, I know but on just the second day of a brand new year, it sadly felt worth sharing.
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~14~RS~)
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Betsan:
[A private intrusion into a political blog, I know but on just the second day of a brand new year, it sadly felt worth sharing. ]
I know, that is a very private intrustion...But, from time to time, it is important to bring something 'lite' to the table....And will have many more blogs of news!
(I hope that Betsan is feeling better)....
~Dennis Junior~
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Betsan:
Maybe your daughter is telling you, her career choice early in life....
NB: i know, it is off topic--but, it is the topic of discussion....
~Dennis Junior~
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Good morning Betsan and hope you are better and for going to work. Arent children wonderful,but the real world hits them very early through TV etc. Thanks for your "blog" which is certainly helping to unite the welsh people. Adding AP to my name so can you pass my name on to "powers" that be and hopefully I can join the gravy train.
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Thro the eyes of a child...unlike the UK govenment's current gutless silence/complicity...
A Peaceful New Year Betsan...although that's unlikely.
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Hi Betsan - Hope you are better & a Happy New Year to you and yours, lets hope there are some bright glimmers of a better future before next Winter.
It sounds like your precocious 5 year old is going to give you plenty to think about in the years to come.
As to the News - Its not just children who notice the obsession the editors have with the horrors that we do to each other.
The wall to wall coverage of every gruesome detail of the latest inhuman act, for hours/days on end, excluding all else, is not bringing us news, its something else altogether, and I'm sure a psychologist out there will have a name for it.
As for the other mainstay of the news Editor "Sport" with interminal interviews about nothing which seem to enrapture the reporters, again not news, just hot air to fill time.
(Exclude Rugby of course - vital issues to report there).
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It is indeed sad that this year has begun with an erruption of more discord in the Middle East.
We, in this country, should learn lessons from the past, not revert to a distant past when we were engaged in tribal wars. Far more important to promote harmony in these islands, respect our differences, celebrate our shared inheritance and resist all attempts that are being made to divide us.
I predict that the Welsh worm will finally wake up and turn in 2009.
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It takes a toddler to make powerful point! Hopefully we'll have more statesmen and women, rather than the pathetic politicians of today, by the time she grows up.
Many people are dying, mainly in Gaza, killed by missiles and shells fired by Israeli forces at a population of one and a half million people, living in an area smaller than Wrexham. So far, 75 children have been killed. Imo, the actions of Israel amount to nothing less than state-sponsored terrorism. If such acts were committed by any other state, they would be condemned outright.
Its heartening that today hundreds of people from all over Wales showed their solidarity with the besieged citizens of Gaza, and the downtrodden and persecuted Palestinians. They protested at the failure of western governments, including the gutless British Government of Gordon Brown, to condemn the disproportionate and indiscriminate bombing and shelling by vastly superior forces, of a people with no army, air force or navy to defend them.
I am proud that we in Wales can show solidarity with those who are suffering at the hands of the world's bullies.
The Gazans have been under a total Israeli blockade for 18 months, food and medical supplies have been denied them. All they had to strike back with were some primitive home-made rockets. Yet Bush has the affrontery to lay all the blame on Hamas (democratically elected to represent the Gazans) whilst US-made bombs and missiles are raining down on defenceless people.
The UN has been unable to condemn Israel's behaviour because the United States, under the reprehensible leadership of George Bush, has vetoed every resolution. Barack Obama has been notably silent on the issue, which doesn't bode well for the Palestinians during the next four years.
Of one thing I am certain, that were Wales independent, its government would be the first to condemn outrages such as those perpetrated by the Israelis. Neither would Wales be involved in invading and occupying countries like Iraq and Afghanistan, where countless innocents have died or been tortured at the hands of US and British forces.
We should be ashamed of the Labour Government. Its founders, such as Keir Hardy, must be turning in their graves at what Blair and Brown have done to their beloved and once highly principled party.
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If there's a bandwagon around, our Bryn can be found scrambling onto it.
I'm surprised he hasn't yet achieved high office.
Dafydd Iwan must be so proud.
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There are two sides in this conflict, Noah, and it's no surprise whose side the nationalists support.
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Probably the side who deserve support. You cannot argue with that point, George Bush has just declared Hamas the threat!
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Message 7....
The Israelis have every right to take action, they have warned those in Gaza for some years that such action would be taken. To no avail it seems.
Let us take the conflict to your own front door, .... you have neighbours(Hamas) that constantly throw stones at you and your family, you report the activity to the police(the UN), they make some noises off, to the effect your neighbours should behave themselves.
Another neighbour, relatively friendly with you and your antagonists,(Egypt) talks to them and gets them to behave for a set period, ..say one month... at the end of that month, you, hoping the nonsense has now stopped,. suddenly find yourself again under attack.
The police(UN) again issue Asbo's and warning, again to no avail, then one night your baby gets hit with a brick and dies.
I expect you will now just lie back and let the useless police(UN) do their job, but they do not, so what would I do, I would take a gallon of petrol and a shotgun, to make sure they cannot leave their house, and I torch their miserable establishment, that's what I (Israel) would do, and is doing.
Those in Gaza would be better served by Israel if an equivalent portion of land was given back to them, and the whole bloody lot shipped out to an enlarged west Bank.
Just like your antagonistic neighbour being given his marching orders, along with his ASBO.
That way, there would be no more killed, at least in Gaza, what would ensue is any one's guess, but at least Israel would not have the problem as at the moment, in that sector of it's territory..
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legendaravocet notice whose side the imperialists choose, the strong aggressive nation with the power and support to illegaly settle in Palestine and intervene with force whenever it sees fit.
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-osian-,
Hamas are quite a different organisation, terrorists who succeeded at the ballot box.
Thus the majority support their actions, rocket attacks, suicide bombing etc.
It was Gandhi who said "you cannot shake hands with a clenched fist", there is little point in assigning blame, what has gone has gone, both sides need to open their fists before peace can be given a chance.
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Perhaps, Osian, you would like to explain what you mean by your phrase 'illegally settle in Palestine'.
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The Israelis appear to have cast iron title to the chunk of real estate they currently occupy - was it not gifted to them by God round about 5000BC
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A bit in addition to my last one.
Some decades ago a whole nation took it upon themselves to elect a government that saw fit to proceed along a path that the world, almost to a nation, saw as totally unacceptable.
The result of which electoral achievement gave rise to some six millions of Jews, and probably another 2 millions of other untermensch, as they were described, lost their lives.
That does not take into account the other millions in uniform that died also in eradicating that 'legally' elected regime.
The post war formulated United Nations made it part of the Declaration of Human Rights that no regime should ever again be set up that would be born out of terrorism, or non democratic political aspirations.
Hamas is such an organisation.
Yes, it was 'elected' by it's people, but it's tenets and premises, go directly against any sort of humanity, as laid out in the UN Charter.
It is based on a denial of the right for a sovereign state to exist.
It refuses to go in accord with the UN Charter, or any form of internationally acceptable behaviour, will not concede the right for Israel to exist, and being based on radical and fundamental Islamic, but anti Koranic principles, deserves all and anything thrown at it.
I am not talking of Palestine, per se, but just one small part of the modern day Palestinian mind set.
It, Hamas, is out of kilter with the main stream in Palestine, as Hamas is mortally opposed to Fatah, the apparently more rational sector of the Palestinian nation.
Just like the NAZI'S took the whole German population along for the ride, so too has Hamas taken the population of Gaza.
If those people of Gaza are too stubborn, and radicalised, to listen to more reasonable voices amongst the Palestinian politically educated class, then whatever happens to them is justly deserved.
They will find themselves rapidly constricted into a bunker situation, where their leaders will end up like Hitler and his henchmen did in 1945/6
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You are right mapexx, democracy brings with it real responsibilities rather than rhetoric, I don't think Hamas can be up for peace when they continually call for the complete destruction of Israel.
It's a no-win situation.
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#14
Ask Gordon, he has at least acknowledged it. Which is more than can be said for many Western leaders.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6669545.stm
Hamas might call for the complete destruction of Israel. But remember that while Hamas call for the complete destruction of Israel, Israel are actually bombing with fighter jets and tanks and ground personnel. I think the threat of Hamas is exaggerated by Israel. Rockets which have killed a rather insignificant amount of people when compared to the amounts of Gazan residents killed by Israel.
Neither side is justified and both should halt the violence and israel must allow in humanitarian aid, even if just to give some semblance moral superiority.
Regarding Israel's moral superiority:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7345025.stm
The only reason Israel is going on the offensive is to show off and win favour at home. Did their last offensive work? How did Lebanon turn out? Have they learnt the lesson that force cannot solve all issues?
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"Imo, the actions of Israel amount to nothing less than state-sponsored terrorism. If such acts were committed by any other state, they would be condemned outright."
Notice the Western outrage when Russia intervened in Georgia and yet Israel has free rein.
On #11 shouldn't the illegal, under UN law, Jewish settlements b dealt with by the police(UN)?
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Good evening Osian.
Surely we must all feel gratitude for your splendid, even-handed summation of the unfolding events in Gaza and Israel.
I too feel those troublesome Israelis have made far too much of the 7,000 or more missiles, rockets and shells that the funloving members of Hamas have playfully launched into Israel.
After all, it's not as if they were actually aiming at a specific Israeli target. Surely this brought an extra frisson of excitement to the whole show.
I don't know. . . That's the trouble with these Israelis. . . . . . no sense of humour !!!!!
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Message 19....
the settlements WERE disposed of, months ago, by tbhe Israeli's themesleves, they exited Gaza completely, settlements, army the lot, and observed the truce brokered by the Egyptians.
It was Hamas, in their fanatical hatred of Israel, immediately after the six month truce finished, that began to once again throw missiles, as Noah has so clearly put it, for the 'fun' of it, no doubt about it. There is no way these gentle peop,le would do it in a serious way, now is there?
Grow up, for goodness sake.
But by all means, carry on reading the Koran.
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Exactly 21 as Israel has a legal right to exist and protect itself as we did in 1939-1945 when we slaughtered hundreds of thousands of innocent civillians in bombing attacks.It aint pleasant but the real world insnt the most friendly of places. There's no doubt that Israel has a very bad press with left wing writers/supporters and gets the blame for all problems in middle east and moslem world in general. What about the slaughter that took place during partition of India and creation of Pakistan. The Iran/Iraq war which was internal to Sunni/Shia hostilities was a battle to death. Its interesting that virtually all the "suicide bombers" in Iraq sem to be internalised against religious opposition,rather than American/British targets. Never mind overseas weve got these fanatics living and working here as was evidenced in London/Edinburgh assault. Werll be paying for the errors in policy in 60's for centuries.
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#21
You're right Israel did everything, except allow humanitarian aid into Gaza. I hadn't read of any Jewish settlements in Gaza, I was merely pointing out their territorial disputes with their neighbours and the illegal settlements in the West Bank as a sign of Israel's character and intentions.
"I don't know. . . That's the trouble with these Israelis. . . . . . no sense of humour !!!!!"
I'd argue to the contrary, a 1 tonne bomb to dispose of one Hamas member's house is rather comical. Or heavy handed...
And mapexx I don't read the Koran and never have. Maybe that's the problem, a lack of understanding.
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Message 23....
I have to say it, but that is not quite the right way to study Islam, for that is what we are really talking about here.
Israel, after many millennia, was set up, after the Holocaust, by the very strong political influence of Britain. Supported by the USA.
It is our bounden duty therefore to support Israel in this most trying of it's predicaments.
The plain and simple fact is, Islam decry's the existence of Israel, as it sees Israel as a non nation, the land beneath which, was, according to Islamic teachings, stolen from the Arab/Palastinians.
As you state you have little knowledge of the Koran, I infer you also would state the same for middle east politics.
That branch of human mischief is bound to the Islamic principle of turning the whole world Muslim. That is the mindset of virtually every Muslim, and you can take that from someone who has had great contact with all sides of the Muslim mindset.
As someone else has said, within Islam, there are divisions, lethal one's at that. Only yesterday a female blew herself up, and many more with her, in a Baghdad market area, that, as stated, was nothing to do with hitting on western personnel, but saw off into Paradise nearly a hundred of her fellow Muslims, just because they did not comply with her version of the faith.
Much as a C of E worshipper, blowing himself up in the Vatican, where, of course, most who would perish would be Roman Catholics.
I accept that Israel MAY be going over the top with it's response to the hundreds of missiles being aimed into it's territory, but how would you, yes you Osian, deal with the situation?
All methods have apparently been tried, even a neighbouring Muslim state has pretty well sided with Israel, and tried curbing the activities of Hamas.
When Israel pulled out of Gaza, it was, as I understand it, made expressly clear that any aid, or other forms of help, entering Gaza, would have to go in through the Siniai desert, Egyptian territory. A fellow Islamic state.
I can see little wrong with that arrangement. That would preclude any further attempts by Hamas utilising Israeli territory for it's underhand and devious purposes.
That is what is the wrong thing about it all, by enforcing such a regime, Israel protects itself and it's people, but Hamas realises it has no futher ability to make inroads into Israeli social life, and so attacks by cowardly and terrorist means.
Israel on tghe other hand, having PUBLICLY warned Hamas of the likely outcome of it's actions, again in the full glare of public gaze, did exactly what it said it would do.
So, let me reiterate, under those circumstances, just what would your reactions be to the treatment being doled out, in such a cowardly fashion, to Israel?
Keeping in mind all other methods have been thrust aside by Hamas in it's unintelligent political suicide mission.
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Good evening Osian.
In message 23 you state. . ."You're right, Israel did everything except allow humanitarian aid into Gaza"
May I humbly suggest you take a look on Google Earth, under "Gaza Strip".
No doubt to your utter amazement you will see about 30 MILES of Mediterrannean coastline along the western edge ofthe Gaza Strip.
Surely it would be a simple operation to unload everything Gaza requires along that coastline! Anyway, why the hell should Israel NOT allow humanitarian aid into Gaza?. . . .Just as long they can examine said aid, in case they find the odd box of missles in amonst it !!!!!
No Osian, kindly soul that you are. You and many others are being influenced by the utterly ruthless and cynical Hamas propaganda machine. You will note that not one word have they mentioned about their own activities which caused all this.
For God's sake. WAKE UP, Hamas, know exactly what they are doing. They know that the West's media, (Especially the BBC) are a soft touch.So they milk it for all it's worth. They are oh so aware of the propaganda value of a bloodstained child being carried by an apparently distraught father, hence the film and photographs every night.
I for one am disgusted at the one-sided viewpoint we are shown every night on our screens.
Israel must carry on, Hamas must be completely wiped out, otherwise, in 10 or so years from now (or even sooner) they will provoke another similar response from Israel. Insanity, yes of course it is, but isn't that what you always find with religious maniacs.
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I found both of your comments amusing as I support neither side yet you both seem to be convinced that I am a poor victim of biased journalism on behalf of the BBC.
Mapexx, it doesn't matter if Israel publicly warned them. Warning someone that you will do something in front of witnesses doesn't justify it.
The treatment being doled out to Israel isn't cowardly, it just shows how weak Hamas is. Compared to the precision bombing carried out by Israel eg dropping a 1 tonne bomb on a known Hamas member's house. Hamas now has a rocket which can reportedly reach up to 45 km into Israel! Can you believe it?! 45km!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7805834.stm
Noah, when you refer to the Hamas propoganda, do you remember the one a few months back which showed a rescued lion being returned to a zoo/sanctuary by Hamas members?
All I can say is I am glad that Noah isn't Israel's head of state because not even Israel say that they want to "completely wiped out" Hamas.
And mapexx when you ask me what I'd do, not get in this mess in the first place.
Or now I'd pull out of Gaza, declare a ceasefire, allow as much humanitarian aid as possible into Gaza through Israeli controlled checkpoints to limit on illegal movement of arms and to discredit Hamas by showing the people of Gaza that Israel has a sense of morality.
Or if the rocket attacks continue regardless of above actions just move all Israelis out of the 40km area bordering Gaza so the rockets can't hit them.
In fact this has brought the discussion to a nice close because we have ended up exactly where we began:
"A lot of people are dying this year already so watch out for bombs - ok?"
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message 26....
As I have told you, your naivety is bewilderingly obtuse in it's apparent innocence.
You say you would declare a ceasefire., and then go on to say allow Humanitarian aid in , with careful checks on the contents.
Do you not know that across, or should I say under, the Sinai border with Egypt, these maniacs have dug tunnels, through which they have been importing thousands of weapons, missiles, and whatever they can be supplied with, by sympathetic Islamic states such as Iran, and possibly other Islamic states as well, even Egypt does not have clean hands in this..
Satellite imagery has witnessed the transporting of truck loads of stuff heading across the Sinai desert towards Gaza, coming from areas that would NOT be sending humanitarian aid.
That is left to the west to provide. That's us suckers ,in case you don' t realise it.
They will take your flour and milk powder as they stick a suicide bomber into your presence, as a way of thanks for you kindness.
I heed the comment from Noah about the coastline, but the Israeli's have been very vigilant in patrolling that potential gap in it's defences, so there would be little chance of much getting into Gaza by that route.
Another little slip by you osian, Israel HAS stated, many times, it wishes to see Hamas wiped out.
I was surprised when Hamas 'won' it's mandate that Israel did not invade the place then, they must have known what to expect, once the whole of the Gaza population was supporting Hamas.
There is one certainty in the matter of closing down any anti social situation, its a little thing called FEAR.
Israel knows this, as do a few of us with experience of Islamic fundamentalism, even if some of the lily livered in the west who are crying bitter tears for the poor hard done to Gaza folk, do not.
Pity one of your family were not working in the twin towers of the WTC, or on that bus in London, maybe then you would not be so gentle in your approach to the situation in Gaza, because,... for your information,... it's all part and parcel of the same Islamic fundamentalists agenda to create mayhem and fear in OUR populations.
What's sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander, is the way I see it.
Bloodied women and kids notwithstanding.
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Quote from Osian.
"Or if the rocket attacks continue regardless of above actions just move all Israelis out of the 40km area bordering Gaza so the rockets can't hit them."
I just cannot believe what this person is saying. The obvious question is WHY THE HELL SHOULD THEY ?
Followed closely by "And then Hamas get hold of missiles/rockets/shells that can reach 250 km.". . . what then ?
Osian, your post was so full of ridiculous arguments that I was genuinely at a loss to know where to start . I'm sure many who read your previous posts were surprised to be told that you "supported neither side". Well, if you can come out with twaddle like that, then "The world is your lobster, Rodney". . . . . . . .
Though your totally puke-making last sentence must be the most sickening piece of sanctimonious creeping witnessed on here for a long long time.
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Why the hell should they?' Because of the threat that Hamas poses! If they were really fed up with the Hamas attacks then they wouldn't be living there anymore would they? If the Hamas attacks were a real threat then you would have moved. Especially as they have been a long term security issue and not a recent development.
"Do you not know that across, or should I say under, the Sinai border with Egypt, these maniacs have dug tunnels, through which they have been importing thousands of weapons, missiles, and whatever they can be supplied with, by sympathetic Islamic states such as Iran, and possibly other Islamic states as well, even Egypt does not have clean hands in this.."
Yes but don't you see? If Israel makes the aid programme official the Gazan people will no longer see a reason for the tunnels. Therefore there will be less tunnels, and therefore easier to police. And then if other Arab states continue to illegaly supply Gaza they will no longer have international sympathy because Israel has set up an aid programme to deal with the humanitarian crisis. It's pretty simple really.
To show how effective this campaign by Israel has been they have killed more of their own troops than Hamas have. 4 Israelis killed by a tank. 3 Israelis injured by 700 Hamas rocket attacks in the past 10 days.
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Message 29....
How many times must Israel hold out the hand of compliance with internationally set guidelines?
It would appear you have little knowledge of the whole matter, but come from a standpoint of emotive sympathy for those whose sole reason d'etre is to force Israel off the map.
Why should Israeli's, in their own territory, move anywhere just to sate the aspirations of a bunch of terrorist gangsters.
IF Israel puts up a fence to keep the murderous thugs out, they throw missiles over it, so having been warned what would happen, they now cry and wail as they light the blue touch paper on their rockets, aimed at Israel lands.
What you obviously do NOT understand, or comprehend is the fact that there is a war of attrition taking place, between the west, and Islam, the front line being Israel.
Not always mind you, sometimes it shifts a bit, to New York, London, Madrid etc.
Maybe one day it will strike you where it hurts, then shall we see how sympathetic you are to Hamas, and it's behind the scenes support.
once upon a time, as we often get reminded, the Arabic regions gave us many scientific and such, insights they gave us great art, and sculpture, they built fantastic and beautiful constructions, the Alhambra in Spain for example, the Blue Mosque in Istanbul, ans much more.
What have they given in the last few centuries...? absolutely nothing, except much grief through their terrorist activities, and you expect the Jews, and us, to bend over to be shafted by these maniacs?
Go get some details of what your pals in Gaza are really up to, and fronting.
They know exactly what they are about, they have come unstuck this time though, because the backlash they expected from the rest of the world has not happened, beyond a few words of admonishment against Israel for going a tad OTT.
Civilian casualties are sad news, but nothing out of the ordinary, keep in mind the vast number who have been taken out by us Brits and the Yanks over in Iraq, and Afghanistan, and for what reasons?
if I am not mistaken, more or less exactly the same reasons as given by the Israeli's for their attack on Gaza, to 'protect' their own.
Now, that may not fit in with your pretty little emotion filled theories re Gaza and the attack by Israel, but believe me, it is the facts of the matter.
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#30
"... the facts of the matter"
This is what happens when you allow a bully free rein:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7814054.stm
If any of you callous commentators have children or grandchildren, then think on that fact. Listen to what the ICRC and UN are saying:
"the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) warned of a "full-blown humanitarian crisis" in Gaza.
Speaking on the 11th day of the Israeli assault, a senior ICRC official, Pierre Kraehenbuhl, said life in Gaza had become intolerable."
the director of operations for Unrwa, John Ging, said the conditions in Gaza were "horrific".
Head of Unrwa John Ging: 'The international community has a responsibility to act'
"Nowhere is safe for civilians here in Gaza at the moment. They are fleeing their homes and they are right to do it when you look at the casualty numbers."
"It's very, very dangerous, and even the 14,000 who have sought refuge in our schools and shelters, they are not safe either."
Mr Ging said international leaders had a responsibility to act to protect civilians.
"You cannot conduct huge military operations in such densely-populated places without killing hundreds and injuring thousands of civilians."
The BBC adds, "Information about what is happening inside Gaza is limited as Israel has barred foreign reporters from entering."
..... and seeing the disgusting atrocities they are carrying out!
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Israeli soldiers came under intense fire from both machine gun fire, and shoulder launched RPGs (rocket propelled grenades).
This came from Hamas lunatics inside the school. Quite obviously they have no thought whatsoever for THEIR OWN youngsters, and are more than happy to use them as human shields. This is quite a common trick, a set-up job which terrorists carry out with absolutely no regret whatsoever.
You however, blame only the Israeli troops, who I'm sure had been well briefed on the likelyhood of this sort of trap, yet you maintain that somehow this was a deliberate act. Though for what purpose is beyond me, this is the last thing they would have wanted, especially with the eyes of the world upon them.However Brynt, your hatred of all things Israeli is there for all to see.
I might have thought that you may have made some mention of the circumstances of this action,but alas from previous experience I should have known better.
Your sly, deceitful, bigoted , one-sided post is typical of a band-wagon jumper like you.
All this is of Hamas's own making. They have cunningly provoked Israel into this action. Now they are losing however, they are concentrating their efforts on the propaganda war. They know damn well that the sickly western media are suckers for the right pictures which they hope will promote anti Israeli feeling. Hamas can end this immediately, a promise to stop fireing missles, shells and rockets into Israel is all that is needed to end this right now.
But no, such is their total insanity, they just carry on launching their missiles even in the face of far superior force.
Nervous virgins like you Brynt will thus ensure that this action will solve nothing. So, in a few years time (and a few thousand more missiles launched at Israel)we will be going through this all over again.
Though maybe like Hamas, that is just what you want.
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Message 31...
Oh! yes, Israel is the big bad bully, for taking a police action to put a stop to the constant rain of missiles, the perpetual suicide bombings , the sniper shootings and all the other petty little acts of terrorism that are constantly being perpetrated by Hamas.
Get real man, you have no conception of being under attack, but can afford to proffer such castigation from the comfort of your desk chair.
Some of us HAVE been faced with the antics of these Islamic monsters that Hamas is representative of, and we sympathise completely with the actions of Israel, as for myself, they have done it far too late in the day, that nest of vipers needed clearing out, long ago, and it is way past the time of day that it should have been tackled.
However, that said, the international community has failed to take any action against these terrorists worth mentioning, but they are all there shouting when it comes to criticising someone who is prepared to take the necessary actions to put this bunch of murderinmg thugs down.
Considering that the whole territory of Gaza elected for this group to take power, then so be it on the heads of all who reside there.
The co-commitant casualties, the poor little kids and those who are not supporters of Hamas, are unfortunatley having to be tarred with the same brush as their lords and masters. And must suffer the same consequences of the actions of those lords and masters. In all wars there are civilian victims.
I hear little from certain quarters about the loss of life elsewhere on the planet, in the main caused and perpetrated by western led activities.
All the crocodile tears in the world will not alter the fact that Israel is standing alone, but thankfully gets a degree of support from many in the west who recall the fact that when their predecessors were being marched into the gas ovens of Aushwitz, and Buchenwald, promises were made after those events that, never again would Jews be subjected to such horrors.
But the west also has a bad track record, when it comes down to keeping promises.
Had they been kept, we would not be having this discussion today.
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There's no point in arguing with two such shortsighted people. Unless they would like to comment on my plan of what I would do? It's odd when they raise a matter you smash their argument and then they don't reply, they merely move on and turn to increasingly extreme language e.g. "Your sly, deceitful, bigoted , one-sided post is typical of a band-wagon jumper like you. "
And Mapexx not only does the West have a bad track record, but a worsening one. Remember we created this mess, just like Zimbabwe. I mean how stupid was it to take land from Muslims and give it to Jews? Isn't that tempting fate a bit? Those Muslims being the "monsters", "terrorists", etc. that they are!
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Message 34....
I do not accept criticism re the 'taking of Muslim lands' to give them to Jews as I have already stated elsewhere that the portioning out of that area was rather a sorry decision by the British.
However, that said, there was at the time a world wide movement to return the Jews to their pre diasporic homeland.
Keep it in mind, Palestine was NOT a Muslim area as such, it was a shared region, initially Jewish, but which had been disturbed by Rome.
Also keep in mind, there were NO Muslims pre 1070 or thereabouts, and even then it may have taken some centuries before Islam actually took over the lands we are talking about.
Palestine has always been the 'Belgium' of the middle east, a permanent battleground up until the end of WW11, subsequent to which, the battle ground parameters have remained but with more localised combatants.
So in historical terms if any lands were taken, from anyone, it was the region taken from the Jews in the first place, rather than the other way about.
Britain therefore, redressed the situation.
As for you remark that I am in truck with Noah, in being shortsighted, I would think you to be, as stated previously, rather naive.
The reason for my saying that is you seem to have an innocent outlook on just what is the facts of the matter.
Only last evening we were informed that Hezbollah, in Lebanon, have fired missiles into Israel. It is none of their business what is occurring in Gaza, so Israel now has to fight their battle on two fronts, both of which are violently opposed to the State of Israel, an internationally recognised sovereign state
Which, funnily enough, neither Hezbollah nor Hamas are.
In mentioning Belgium, as I did, what would your reaction be if..., say...Holland, decided to invade Belgium, and annex it, after all Belgium was part of the Netherlands up until 1815.
Would you be as 'sympathetic' to Belgium as you are to Gaza?
The bottom line has nothing to do with Israel 'taking' Muslim lands, it has everything to do with a bunch of murdering thugs who have somehow managed to gain overall control of what should be, according to it's tenets, a highly gentle and munificent religion, and thrusting it's terrorising agenda into the western world that it intends to have cowering down, to the level of total submission to the fundamentalism they have wreaked on that religion.
As far as I am concerned, it would not be out of order for the western world to take Islam by the throat and give it a shaking it would never forget.
The Russians tried it in Afghanistan, but were beaten, not by Islamic force, but by the west, doing as is normal for the west, failing to support Russia in it's endeavors to keep Islam in it's place,
Instead of which, which the main chance in mind looking for influence and capital gains it's did everything in it's power to thwart the Russian war effort, the results of which we are now paying for big time.
So please, no more emotive little messages showing support for a piddling little gang of cutthroats, who are just one small corner of the very much wider global picture that is Islam.
The whole mess is a war of attrition in which fundamental Islam is, bit by bit, attempting to gain precedence over the whole world.
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Oh Dear Osian.
You seem to have forgotten your quite amazing reply to my point about Hamas firing over 7000 rockets/missiles/shells into Israel in recent years.
You stated
(Quote from Osian).
"Or if the rocket attacks continue regardless of above actions just move all Israelis out of the 40km area bordering Gaza so the rockets can't hit them."
(Reply from Noah Sembly)
I just cannot believe what this person is saying.
The obvious question is WHY THE HELL SHOULD THE ISRAELIS GIVE UP SUCH A HUGE AREA OF THEIR COUNTRY?
Followed closely by "And then Hamas get hold of missiles/rockets/shells that can reach 250 km.". . . what then, a FURTHER retreat back away from any Borders with Gaza?
I am now beginning to seriously doubt your sanity Osian. Have you no idea at all about what is going on there?
You are aware I assume, that Israel in recent years, gave up the entire Gaza strip and handed it over completely to the present inhabitants. The same inhabitants who have been lobbing missiles etc., at Israel. with gay abandon ever since.
Sorry Osian, if you cannot see anything wrong with the Hamas actions, and cannot understand Israel's response, it is an utter waste of time even bothering with you.
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#36 Noah wrote:
"You are aware I assume, that Israel in recent years, gave up the entire Gaza strip and handed it over completely to the present inhabitants."
How very kind of Israel to do that, considering that the Zionists stole ALL the land from the Palestinian Arabs in the first place, and have been treating them like c**p ever since.
Go read some history, Noah.
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This blog hasn't woken from its Christmas slumber yet, ee'n tho the politics shoots are springing up.
The BBC Wales politics page makes no reference to the news report on BBC Wales TV this morning, of Dafydd Wigley's request to meet the leadership of Plaid to discuss the 'limbo' which he and the other two Plaid nominees are in, regarding their nomination for the undemocratic and unelected House of Lords.
The Lords is one of the bodies which has a veto on all applications for LCOs made by the Assembly. That is why PC has changed their policy of not putting forward nominations for peerages. The three nominations have been ignored by Gordon Brown, who had seen to it that Mandelson was given a peerage post haste.
I can't help feeling that the Plaid leadership, (or maybe just the leader) have their heads in the sand and don't want to face the reality that they made a strategic error by climbing into bed with Labour. So far Plaid has little or nothing to show for its coalition pact.
True, the All Wales Convention is at work, but even if it shows that there is support for a Welsh Parliament, and a referendum takes place, it is clear that at best the Labour Party will be split on the issue. No-way are Welsh Labour MPs going to support it. They will do their darndest to wreck it - for entirely selfish reasons, in my opinion. That will be disastrous for the Yes campaign.
One doesn't need a crystal ball to predict how things are going. Wigley's concern - its taken him well over a year to raise it - shows just how deeply IWJ has buried his head in the sand, and doesn't want to see the big error he's made for the party. He needs to wake up very soon.
Where is Plaid going? No-where?
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Gordon Brown was on my bus this morning handing out the phone number of the nearest Job Centre and a fifty pence voucher to spend at "Poundstretcher", to stimulate the Welsh economy "just like Obama". I think I saw Lord Mandelson in a hoodie ("meeting the sub-primes"), but a fight broke out and they ran off. Something some local idjut said about "punching above our weight jus' like Joe" ?
Where is Labour going? On the No 30 bus to Newport! Aka DEEPEST OBLIVION.
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#40 BLUESNIK wrote:
"Gordon Brown was on my bus this morning....
Where is Labour going? On the No 30 bus to Newport! Aka DEEPEST OBLIVION."
Seems you were headed there too. A pint with Paul Flynn perhaps? Hehe
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Message 37....
No, ....You go read some history.
The lands were Jewish for two thousand years or more, until the diaspora, after Rome took over the middle east.
It was still Jewish land right up until the early twentieth century, all that happened was Islam had made inroads, since about 1150 AD, or thereabouts.
After WW2, the British, with the full agreement of the other international players, decided to make it the Official State of Israel. Thereby reversing the diaspora, and giving the Jews the homeland they had been deprived of, gradually, since the days of the Roman empire.
Keep also in mind, that Islam is the newest religion, preceded by Judah, by two thousand years or more; long before Islam came on the scene Israel was a thriving nation and state.
The PALESTINIANS WERE THE INCOMERS, even though they may have felt entitled to the lands they occupied in 1945, they were 'squatters' and had been for some centuries.
Ever since, the, basically, 'immigrant' Palestinians have been moaning about 'their' lands being stolen from them.
They were not the original 'owners anyway,
So before you tell others to study history, do a bit of study yourself.
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Mock not! Paul Flynn has promised me a job on the buses...he knows Rhodri well and has put in a word. When Rhodri retires he plans to run luxery coach tours around the Vale for US tourists. Including a spell at the Kinnock's castle (Chez Glenys) for high tea and sarnis. Wales WILL come thro' this crisis. Keep the faith. Ask no questions.
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Those who support Israel's actions in Gaza would do well to read an article in The Guardian, by Oxford Professor of International Relations, Avi Shlaim, who served in the Israeli army.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-palestine
Please have the courtesy not to respond to this comment if you haven't read the entire article.
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Message 43....
I have read this article, and can endorse much of what the writer states, it's all petty well known historical fact, so he states nothing new.
However, his coverage of the history of both Israel and Gaza is somewhat lacking in historical detail. He is going over the same old territory, argumentatively speaking.
It shows he concentrates almost entirely on post 1945 times.
Where is the pre war historical content, the background to all of this.?
Where is the history of Israel, before it became 'Palestine' as such.
Where is his views on the declared fundamental Islamic, and in the main bloody terrorising, reaction to ISRAEL.
Is he in fact really a paid mouthpice for HAMAS, HEZEBOLLAH AND THE WHOLE OF THE ISLAMIC ANTI ISRAEL AGENDA?
I ask, because it's amazing what a few oil Dollars can do to a persons level of loyalty and patriotism.
It was you, brynt41, that stated the Israeli's 'stole' Palestine from the Palestinians, the article from this ex army officer, who by the way, is speaking from his own personal perspective, and does not have the support of his State of that I am certain, which in my mind gives credence to him being branded a traitor or at least making seditious commentary..
So, instead of throwing yet another diversion onto the message board, how about justifying your previous comments that Israel 'stole' the land of the Palestinians.?
keep in mind also, that within the whole gamut of Islamicism, there are no two factors that can settle and agree with one another, in the way most in the really civilised nations can and do.
Todfay we tend to settle any differences by the use of debate and democratic alternation, although we do sometimes lose the plot, they, on the other hand, opt for bombs,s guns and suicides.
So is it any wonder Israel plays them by their own rules, or should that read anarchistic patterns of behaviour?
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brynt41 might like to switch to The Times, to read today's edition, article "No way forward while the Hamas hydra lives", which includes .....
"Hamas, as its charter and political literature make clear, does not want an end to Israeli occupation. It wants the end of Israel. That is because Hamas is part of a pan-Islamist movement with global messianic ambitions. Creating a Palestinian state in Gaza and the West Bank is not its aim. A branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas dreams of world dominion for its version of Islam rather than a mini-state in 5,000 square kilometres of barren land in a geopolitical backyard."
Hamas is saying "No" to any hand of friendship.
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Most interesting new thing to appear on this blog since – when?
Some of us do not now have jobs – nice one WAG and Westminster (well WAG claims to be government! – Can’t have it both ways as normal) so it not our second day!
Also many of us were voluntary sector being destroyed to secure duplicitous jobs in WAG and local authorities!
But that’s news! Like WEFO recalling contracts for Convergence – something else not investigated! Wasn’t on the One Wales list of prescribed questions for 2008!
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#45 TheStonemason
Bet you didn't read the article, because you don't refer to anything in it.
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"It seems this is a matter of pure prejudice on the Prime Minister's part against a perfectly sensible political party."
No use complaining, Elfyn. Your party got into bed with them. They had their evil way with Plaid and its lost its virginity. Now the bridegroom is giving you the cold shoulder.
Be warned, worse is to come.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7819913.stm
Regrettably, political naivety has its price. Politics is a dirty game.
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I'm sorry Bryn41, but I did, I have made two other points.....
1. at #13 "you cannot shake hands with a clenched fist"
2. at #17 "It's a no-win situation."
I have very limited experience, I served in Northern Ireland, saw one colleague killed by a sniper, and realised after leaving the Army that a solution would not be found until both sides could sit together and talk.
It happened in Northern Ireland but I cannot see it happening in the Middle East in the near future.
I keep harping on when writing about issues in Wales, about "not being able to turn clocks back" and "great wrongs".
Is there anyone taking part in this conflict that realises that clocks only go forward, and wrongs, no matter how terrible, can only be fixed where both sides want the fixing. And the fixing can only occur with good will from both sides.
There, I've said my bit, sad world.
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message 48...
I did read the article as stated ,but I note with interest, your total lack of reasonable response to my reply to it.
I guess you really meant you would not engage with me.
I am very sad at that, because I simply love smacking you, and your puerile messages down,... hard.
But never mind, when one classic fool leaves the game, there's always another, ready, willing, and able, to stand in his place, to play Aunt Sally for my coconut shy.
Plaid, and it's co-conspirational world underclass can always provide cannon fodder from it's front line troops.
And I, amongst others, can always be relied on to throw the brickbats to good effect.
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#50 mapexx wrote:
"I guess you really meant you would not engage with me. I am very sad at that..."
I'm glad you read the article. -:)
Please accept my apology for my reluctance to engage with your comments. It was out of place for me, and out of character too, to say what I did.
I do find it difficult to respond to many of your comments, not just because I disagree with much of what you say, but rather with how you say it.
I have difficulty understanding parts of what you say, or are trying to say, for instance, I don't know what you mean by, "co-conspirational world underclass", so I can't take issue with it.
Some of what you say is simply factually, or historically incorrect. Again, for example,
"After WW2, the British, with the full agreement of the other international players, decided to make it the Official State of Israel."
That statement is factually and historically incorrect. Read about it an independent text, and please, I'm not being patronising. By the mid 1940s Britain couldn't cope with the attacks from Zionist and Arab extremists and asked the UN to seek a solution. In the vote on the subsequent UN Partition Plan, Britain abstained. When Britain withdrew, the Zionists immediately and unilaterally declared the State of Israel. These statements are uncontentious. (I get things wrong too, all too often, but I hope that when I do and I realise it, I want to be open-minded enough to admit it, and learn from it. We can learn something from everyone - that's one lesson its taken me a long time accept.)
At other times you, for example, use 'Cymraeg' or 'Cymro' instead of 'Welsh', when you are writing in English. I find such usage odd, idiosyncratic and being Welsh-speaking, insulting - treating us as if we're a race apart, as it were, another species, to put it another way. For example, "...two insane rants from those Cymraeg slanted twerps" and, "when the true cost of all this Cymro nonsense is opened up to the rest of the UK."
Some of your posts seem to me to degenerate into rather extended and rambling rants. (Again, something I'm often guilty of myself, so its not a personal criticism). It makes it difficult to pick something out to have a rational discussion about.
I appreciate that you, like myself have strongly held views. Mine have changed significantly over the years about many of the issues discussed in these blogs. If I don't respond to a particular post of yours in future, then you might understand why I haven't done so. I will where I feel we can have a fruitful dialogue.
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I will clear the Israel bit out of the way first.
I suggest you look up the Balfour Declaration. What came after that was grist to the mill.
Now to explain what you apparently cannot understand, If I could I would submit in words of one syllable, but that is not possible.
Co-conspirational world underclass... it simply means a grouping of many parts of the same sort who wish to get a certain arrangement or situation to their way of thinking or organising. To the detriment of an overriding majority, who, in the case of Wales, are either dramatically opposed, or who couldn't care less about the status of Wales, or it's divisive second language.
I refer to the language biased, and based, nationalist element here in Wales, in other words.
They are below the horizon doing dealings with one another outside their normal party allegiances. Labour/ Plaid and all those others, not necessarily directly involved in the maschinations of the WAG/Assembly and it's covert and or overt operations. Hence my disrespectful term, 'underclass'.
The reason why I refer to the language as Cymreag is to be strictly correct, as with the references to the Cymro. People of Cymru.
It is those, whose sole reason d' etre on this and other blogs is to gain precedence for the language, over the vastly greater English speaking majority, with their peculiar version of Wales, that I refer as I do.
There is no such a language as Welsh, that is a complete misnomer.
It is, as demonstrated on the inside cover of any Cymraeg dictionary, simply 'Cymraeg'.
You should be pleased I give it it's correct title.
I refuse to follow on by calling the ENGLISH, Saes, however.
The same with the name of the people who claim to be Not Welsh but Cymro, or if you prefer inhabitants of Cymru, which is a million miles from the Wales I live in, know, and am very pleased to call my homeland.
Where the people are known as, English speaking Welsh.
I also refer to the educational establishments, oft referred to, incorrectly, by the same thought process, as Welsh units, or Welsh medium units, but to which I ALWAYS refer as Ysgol Cymraeg, because that is what the Cymro call them.
Now I hope you understand all of that, because you see, just as the Cymro wish to remove their fanciful little 'nation' from Wales, I retain the absolute right to ensure that WALES, my English speaking region, stays exactly where it is at present, strictly within the Union.
You must understand, the terms Wales and Cymru, Cymraeg and Welsh, Welsh person and Cymro, are NOT interchangable.
Yes, they may effectively relate to the same, but they translate totally differently, coming from totally alien language rootstocks.
Hence my refusal to use incorrect nomeclature whenever I am on these English Language blogs, and message boards.
The reason we are having these sorts of discussions are because these terms are regularly mixed, in an inapproprite manner.
I simply attempt to keep the waters I swim in, crystal clear, as anyone with a grain of sense should comrehend.
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"I simply attempt to keep the waters I swim in, crystal clear, as anyone with a grain of sense should comrehend. "
I recommend VERY THICK bleach as the thin stuff from the Spar is a waste of cash and still leaves marks. Whenever Neil and Gleys visit my flat (en route to the bank) I always buy loads of it. Can't be to careful.
4WRD WALES - TO TOTAL DRUID POWER AND HARMONY. SOON!
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BTW Betsan ~ Where are YOU hiding?
Gordon was asking after you on his historic State visit to Cwmbran ("fastest growing supermarket economy in Europe") on Friday...
"Where's that petite noisy BBC woman with the big fluffy mike...did we manage to keep her and her lefty-trot lack of respect out of the press launch for my "Travels with Gordon" series?" (BBC2 soon)
Your many fans need to at this Krisis time!
IMO you should have the next DR. WHO. (still time)
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Bluesnik - if we restore 'druid power', does that mean we have to return to the 'ancient' practice of human and animal sacrifice:
http://www.britainexpress.com/History/prehistory/druids.htm
'4WRD', indeed!
Senatus Populusque Romanus.
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"It is those, whose sole reason d' etre on this and other blogs is to gain precedence for the language, over the vastly greater English speaking majority, with their peculiar version of Wales, that I refer as I do"
Mapexx - it you whose raison d'être seems to be blogging about the language...and to be pedantic it's Ysgol Gymraeg with a G...
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If anyone here dares to speak out against the imposition of what is to us, an alien language and culture, we are told to move to England. We are bombarded with adverts telling us to learn Welsh and to use the Welsh option when provided (obviously because there is currently no demand for the service).
The question is, do we submit and learn the language even if we do not wish to, do we put up with the status quo and wait until we are ethnically cleansed, or do we fight the policies that are dividing our country.
It is surely not beyond the bounds of human capability to please both sides of the divide, thus avoiding a sectarian conflict such as that referred to at the beginning of this discussion.
Politicians should listen for once and disband the Welsh Language Board. Spend the money more wisely, and on projects that actually unite us.
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message 56....
Thank you Dewi for that, not that I say you are wrong, however I have been past a few Ysgol in my time, most of which seem to prefer the 'C' rather than the 'G'.
But maybe my eyesight is a bit off centre.
I will now try to add a copy of a letter from a reader of a south Wakles newspaper...
I hope she will not mind me adding it to this blog, but if she does, my apologies in advance....
Quote....
Welsh no right to be in Wales
Jan 9 2009 by Our Correspondent, South Wales Echo
MR Peter Sunman (Viewpoints, January 3) claims that Israelis have no right to be in Palestine. Their ancestral homeland is in fact... Turkmenistan.
Well, I have news for you, Mr Sunman. The Welsh have no right to be in Wales. They are actually descendants of the Trojans who lived in Turkish Anatolia.
According to Geoffrey de Monmouth’s 12th-century history, the founder of the British race was Brutus, the great-grandson of the Trojan Aeneas.
To perpetuate his own name, Brutus called the island Britain, and his companions he called Britons.
My suggestion is that the Welsh exercise their “right of return” to Turkey. After all, the Turks (who originate from the Mongolian steppes) have no right to be in Turkey.
Mrs L JuliusBina Gardens, London.
Unquote...
did I hear cats and pigeons off stage?
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Sorry but please name one school that says "Ysgol Cymraeg" not "Ysgol Gymraeg"
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Mappex
No cats, or pigeons, I'm afriad.
Geoffrey of Monmouth's history of the british people was discreditted from about 3 hours after its publication.
Brutus, the founder of Britain had three sons, Camber (father of the Cambrensis), Alabnactus (father of teh Scots) and Locrinus, the eldest, thus giving the Anglos Norman lords dominum over the other two countries...
Need I go on...?
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Message 59...
I'll have to take note in future, as I, off the cuff cannot recall any particular one.. I'll get back on it.
However, if I am wrong and my eyes deceiveth me, I shall not make the same error again.
That OK for you?
Message 60....
I post as I find. If you think the message incorrect, then take it up with the people mentioned, I am the messenger, not the message.
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Yeah Just1nD, have a word with Geoffrey of Monmouth...give me strength...Mapexx you could always just like believe me! But OK I'll desist.
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message 62...
Now don't be silly Dewi, you know quite well to whom I was referring. Even if you maybe could not suss it out, the comment from me that I am the messenger not the message should have at least given you a clue.
Geoffrey of Monmouth indeed, he passed away just before Christmas.
His history book fell on him.
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"I did read the article as stated ,but I note with interest, your total lack of reasonable response to my reply to it."
Now that did make me laugh. Actual side splitting out of control laughter. I mean I'm still laughing. It's just incredible. I mean absouletly insane. Mapexx you do so make me laugh.
It's again amusing (only amusing mind you) that now that you have accepted our (Bryn and me) points regarding the current 'crisis' that you delve deeper and deeper into history to try and justify an argument in the present.
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Good evening Osian.
I think that you might have ever so slightly overdone the rather hysterical laughter in message no. 64.
Still in these grim times it's good to hear about someone laughing so heartily.
You are indeed a welcome ray of sunshine.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Noah - things must be bad if I can laugh about the Middle East...
Betsan where are you? What about these Plaid peerages in limbo?
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message 52
I think you'll find mapexx that cymro means a welsh man (with cymraes meaning a welsh woman).
The people of Wales are covered by the term cymry.
Please blog with accuracy.
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p.s. I thought this was about Israel bombing the beejesus out of Hamas. Why are you even going on about welshness....again? Change the record.
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message 68....
I do not speak Cymraeg, I do know a few words, soaked up by the passage of time, and from people like yourself, but as it is evident you understood what I meant, then as asked before, please do not be so bloody pedantic.
Glaringly obvious and meaning altering errors I will take a slap for, but the sort of errors you are on about are not worth mentioning, however I will try to retain the meanings of those few words you have just picked up on, for future reference should I need them.
But at the end of it all, I would say you are being a little picky considering the fairly large amount of comment I made regarding the status of Cymru, the Cymro, and the fact there is a massive differential between Wales, as known to those 80% who speak and live English, and that much smaller minority who follow the Cymraeg language/Cymro way of seeing things.
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#69
Indeed...
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Message 71.....
As there appears to be two directly opposed points of view re Israel /Gaza, and as it seems those points have pretty well become exhausted on this thread, it seems silly to perpetuate the subject.
Others seem the incursion by Israel as disproportionate, evil, against the human rights of the Gazans, for myself, with a great experience of the mindset if Muslims, especially the current crop of radical fundamentalists. I say... Israel, get in do your best,(or worst according to who is mouthing off about it), clean out the nest of vipers, you are not only protecting Israel, but, hopefully, helping to prevent further radicalisation of many of the disaffected Muslim youths who have proved to be the soft underbelly of Islam, ripe for turning into terrorists and suicide bombers.
And not only in Gaza and the West Bank, but wherever Islam has secured a foothold, no matter how small or tenuous.
Cancer can be excised, so can this foolhardy Hamas, unless of course it manages to get past early detection and treatment.
Thanks to the pussyfooting way the west has to date dealt with Islam, (we must have their oil, no matter what the price in dollars, and or, blood) we now are in a self made bind.
We should take a leaf out of Israel's book, and show these fundamental nations of Islam we will not bend to their pressures, but will react, with extreme violence if they do not behave.
It has long been a mantra of the west that politics and religion do not mix, why then have we stood by whilst the Ayatollahs and Mullahs have destroyed what few green shoots of democracy have poked up above the ground in these wayward countries?
Yes, I know Israel is strong religious state, but at least it follows a democracy that is founded in secularism.
The strange thing is, most western nations, the ones that 'drive' the worlds economic machinery, have done a fair job in placing religion where it belongs, outside of the state. Even one time strongholds of religious adherence. Italy, Ireland, France Germany, and especially Britain, are we to tolerate being dragged back into the 7th century by allowing Israel to be broken by a bunch of intolerable murdering maniacs, who see their path to Paradise as via the bomb and gun.
As one lapsed Muslim lady has stated Muslims see this life as only a passage to Paradise, and therefore they welcome death,.
She also, with great insight, stated that, the above makes Islam a 'cult of death'.
You cannot reason with such a mentality, you negotiate at your peril. They will play down their objectives, but they will come to the fore later, when the time is opportune.
Israel knows this, and so do many others on my side of the argument.
You have been warned.
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