Currying favour?
If there's no such thing as a free lunch, what do you make of a free curry?
If you're prepared to go along to Port Talbot on Wednesday night and share your thoughts on devolving more powers to Wales, then a free curry will be yours care of the All Wales Convention. To free laptops, free toothbrushes and free lightbulbs, now we can add free curry to the list of Welsh political freebies.
Get involved. Get engaged. Get stuck into a Chicken Tikka Massala.
It was Robin Cook who dubbed the Chicken Tikka Massala "a true British national dish", who talked about this particular version of meat served in gravy as a way of understanding Britishiness. I've just been looking at the rest of the then foreign secretary's speech where he talked about how "our future together in a single state is all the more secure if we each respect the distinctive identity that makes some of us Scottish and others Welsh or English. That mutual respect strengthens our common identity as British". He went on to call for putting "to bed the scare stories about devolution leading to the "Death of Britain."
That was 2001. David Davies MP of the No campaign was unlikely to agree back then and he's not going to agree now. He, along with fellow True Wales supporters, argue a Yes vote in a referendum on further powers would put Wales on 'the slippery slope to independence'. Why? Because that's how things work. It's what happens. Look at Scotland. It's what Plaid want and this is a step towards achieving that aim. True Wales want the referendum asap so that it - and the argument - can be lost and itself be put to bed.
I don't imagine Mr Davies is likely to be too enamoured with the venue for Wednesday night's free curry either: Port Talbot's Seaside Social and Labour Club. Yes, that is a big 'L'. Nick Bourne has just said it "sends out the wrong message about what is supposed to be a convention that is above party politics".
The curry, I'm sure Sir Emyr Jones Parry would argue, is for the greater good and doesn't undermine the convention as "a totally independent and politically neutral body". It's to get bums on seats, to persuade people who'd run a mile from an evening of political debate with the chattering classes to turn up for a bhaji and a bit of argy-bargy on the side - whatever their views on further devolution. The venue? We've not heard back on that one yet.
There will be 22 public meetings over the next few months. Who knows if the free curry will last that long but Sir Emyr is pretty clear that whatever your take on more powers for the Assembly, it's time to put up or shut up. "If people chose not to get involved in the debate once fully aware of its implications, then that is of course their privilege - I will be happy that they have been consulted and given the opportunity to get involved if they wish".
As for the road from '97: my own memories of a night that looked, felt, smelt like defeat until the very last moment, are here.
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~39~RS~)
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Listed below are the great and the good who have been selected to decide the best date a winnable referendum should be held.
This would obviously be a date which the assembly, (who actually came up with, and organized this "All Wales Malarky") would accept, only if it GUARANTEED their winning the referendum.
This bunch has been "assembled" (at no little cost) in order to try and discover just where us voters intend scrawling our X's come the day of reckoning. They are essentially a kind of nationalized opinion poll outfit.
Chair Sir Emyr Jones Parry
Joan Asby, Narberth, Pembrokeshire Chief officer Planed enterprise and development group
Nicholas Bennett, Cardiff Chief executive Community Housing Cymru; Welsh Language Board member
Sally Hyman, Port Talbot Retired head teacher; chair RSPCA Cymru
Shereen Williams, Newport Director of the Council of Ethnic Minority Voluntary Sector Organisation in Wales
Aled Edwards Faith Forum
Laura Hayes Funky Dragon, Rhondda Cynon Taf
Harry Ludgate CBI Wales
John R Jones Wales Council for Voluntary Action, Anglesey
Paul O'Shea Wales TUC
Shân Ashton Wales Women's National Coalition
Rhodri Evans Young Farmers Clubs
TBA Welsh Local Government Association
Alex Aldridge Labour
Marc Phillips Plaid Cymru
Paul Valerio Conservative
Rob Humphreys Liberal Democrats
The membership is made up of public appointees, nominations from Welsh organisations and main political parties.
So warming to see democracy and fair play in operation !!!!!!!!
Pass the sick bucket Mable.
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The real disgrace is that if you attend the Port Talbot meeting you get a free curry but no free food seems to be available for the Bridgend get together later in the week. Perhaps the stars who are running this show could also explain why they believe that 2 hours is more than sufficient to consult the good citizens of Port Talbot but in Bridgend the consultation will last for nearly 11 hours. Although I doubt if many people will turn up given the fact that the venue was only placed on the Convention's website on Friday 9th January for a meeting in Bridgend on the 15th. As a result they missed the chance to advertise the roadshow in the local newspaper which goes out on a Thursday. Perhaps they might also care to explain how they expect ordinary people to travel from the valleys to out of the way places such as a social club on a large council estate and an out of town shopping centre. This has all the hallmarks of a going through the motion exercise at considerable cost to the taxpayer. Rather than supporting this futile time wasting exercise surely those who believe in more powers should cut to the chase and be arguing for a referendum this year. It could be held on the same day as the European elections in June. The logistics would be easy because unlike in England there are no council elections in Wales on the same day. The count could take place on the Friday given that the European count will not take place until the Sunday.
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As a brit with Welsh, Scottish and English forebears the gradual fragmentation of our country makes me sick, it will only end in tears. It's also a complete waste of public money when all around us folks are out of work and factories are closing. Looking at that list very few of them have actually done a job in the real world.
Wake up to reality please
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"The All Wales Convention has been charged with the responsibility of raising awareness and improving understanding of the current arrangements for devolved government in Wales ........ "
The words of the AWC not mine, it continues ....
"The Convention also aims to generate a debate on these issues among the public and civil society in Wales ..... "
Right, 3 million people with 19 public meetings, a further 10 evidence gathering events. This doesn't sound like democracy to me, very little opportunity for debate, great opportunity to stifle dissent.
It fails to ask the questions uppermost in my mind......
First, what after 700 years, has changed our world so much that we are now unable to live together, requiring a division from the remainder of the UK through local law making, which by definition will create greater division.
Second, who benefits from such a political and social division of our society.
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Thank you Noah for providing us "ordinary"people with list of "appointees". It looks pretty cut and dried to me but will try to go the Bridgend event and report back.When you think the state the economy is in and undoubted major cut backs coming after General Election is this the best use of public money. I repeat to everybodies "annoyance" that I know of NO PERSON who wants more powers for the "mickey mouse" assembly. This is buying off PC and fellow travellers in BBC Wales and glitteratti in Cardiff. God help us.
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I'm in favour of more powers but the more I look at the whole thing the more I think it's all a bit structured and designed to create some kind of "pretence" of consultation. I live in the Swansea area and the convention comes here in March. There are two sessions - one is to give "written testimony" and the other is a "Question Time" format.
Swansea was never even on the list (it was the only local authority area missing), yet if you didn't get your name down for the written testimony session by the 12th of December then you're not eligible for it. Yet the question and answer session suggests that you can't even give an opinion - it's just to inform people about what's on offer. I'm a little concerned that the way this whole convention is being organised will only feed growing disillusionment about the way things are going in the Bay and make it more likely that we'll get a "No" vote.
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#4 TheStonemason wrote:
"First, what after 700 years, has changed our world so much that we are now unable to live together, requiring a division from the remainder of the UK through local law making, which by definition will create greater division."
A good question, but worded in a very partisan way.
A legislative parliament for Wales would not result in a division of the UK. It would allow the people of Wales, all of us, to have laws (within the parameters laid down by the UK Parliament) tailor-made for the better governance of Wales. Few people could argue that Wales has done well under either the pre-devolution period, or since 1998. It is still a relatively poor part of the UK.
Federalism is more radical than what is proposed, but it has not led to the break-up of the USA, Canada or Australia. Most European nations have devolved more power, or given greater autonomy, to their regions than is proposed for Wales. It has not led to the break-up of Spain, or Germany, Belgium or Switzerland, for example.
The concentration of power at the centre has generally been a bad thing for democracy. We have seen that tendency under New Labour. It initially legislated for a mild form of devolution for Scotland, and a minimal administrative amount for Wales. Labour did not devolve power to the Scottish Parliament because it believed in devolution. It did so because it feared the prospect of independence and losing its power base in Scotland, which it needs if it is ever to govern the UK. The principle was, give a little, to avoid a lot more being taken.
The UK Parliament has passed a colossal amount of legislation since 1997, much of it concerned with criminal justice and terrorism. With that is coming ID cards, extended detention without charge and a lot of extra surveillance. Some of us would consider such developments as anti-libertarian and a move towards a neo-fascist state. A Welsh legislative parliament could well have control over criminal justice and the police. It would be a safeguard against the concentration of power at Westminster and 10 Downing Street.
There are many other points that I would like to make, but for berevity, and for now, I'll leave it at that. Perhaps we can have a fuller discussion on it over the next few days.
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In interview,
Sir Emyr Jones-Parry said .....
..... "the unofficial British constitution has taken 6 centuries to evolve, do you really think that in 9 years you can suddenly work wonders and say this is the definitive answer for Wales, isn't it better to have something incremental ?" ..... it would be an option.
As the referendum would ask the question
..... retain what powers you have.
or
.. have more powers granted.
His option has a certain logic, I wonder if he had his knuckles wrapped ?
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Waiting more than an hour for posts to moderated is just not on Betsan
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Been on the All Wales Convention site and only two issues basically !.Status Quo,2 Increased powers. They are also to prepare the way for Referendum which must be won. there is also surely a question/issue as to whether there is a continued need for the assembly as well as 1+2 above. Surely all the people who were originally opposed and since its inception have become "sceptical" should have a voice. This is the price of our beloved Rhodri doing the deal with PC whose only real aim is to create an independant/,socialist/welsh speaking wales. The people who do not wish to see more powers must make their views know,otherwise "independance"here we come.
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brynt41, your #7
Federalism has worked, the disparity of size between the UK component parts, is a problem for myself .....
population .....
England - 50 million
NI - 1.75 million
Scotland - 6 million
Wales - 3 million
approximate figures.
England would be approximately 5 times the size of the remaining 3 totalled.
I recently read a report "The English Question" by Professor Robert Hazell CBE
In the report he stated .....
"Creating an English Parliament and a federation of the four nations of the United Kingdom would appear to be a neat solution to the fundamental asymmetry in the devolution arrangements?But it is one thing to create such a federation, quite another to make it work. The fundamental difficulty is the sheer size of England by comparison with the rest of the United Kingdom ? No federation has operated successfully where one of the units is so dominant"
Certainly this question needs an answer.
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More politicians does not mean more democracy , it means more obfuscation and LESS accountability. This exercise is just another step in the same direction , geared towards the appearence of consultation , no substance . Small , self selecting samples mean absolutely nothing , except to those who are either totally ignorant of statistics , or who went to maintain a pretence of democracy . Will I turn up ? No , I cant get there in time . If I could get there I'd ask 'by what OBJECTIVE measurment is the WAG a success ?' . As far as I see , the only objective parameter I can see is us taxpayers supporting another layer of the political classes , who act as if we should be thankful for their existance.
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brynt41, your #7 continuing .....
"would not result in a division of the UK"
It already is, there is great animosity over simple things such as free car parking in hospitals and prescriptions.
This is the type of division I was referring to, divisions within the UK created by unbalanced application of powers, those aspects of life a family member who lived in Hampshire might question.
I did not intend to come across as partisan.
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Betsan:
I would agree with your remarks about a free lunch and having curry is classify in this case as a free lunch....I hope that everyone enjoy it...
~Dennis Junior~
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#11 TheStonemason
Hazell makes an excellent point about asymmetry. Basically its why I think self-determination is the best option.
Some people put it in emotive terms - being dominated by England - which is of course what has happened to Wales for 700 years.
The other option is assimilation, which to some extent has been going on steadily. The Welsh Language and its culture disappearing. There is an inevitable tension there.
The devolution proposals, i.e. legislative competence on the 20 or so devolved areas, falls way short of federalism, weaker even than the current devolution settlement in Scotland. The Scots will get greater powers, that's inevitable, if they remain within the UK.
The Labour Party is essentially unionist at its core. It needs its MPs from Wales and Scotland if it is ever to govern the UK. That is why I questioned Plaid's decision to enter the coalition with them, when it was extremely unlikely that Labour could ever be more than lukewarm to the idea of further devolution.
The most likely scenario is a split, just how deep it will be remains to be seen. The pro-devolution wing will at best be lukewarm in its support, whilst the anti-wing, led by its MPs, probably under the leadership of Murphy, will be vehemently opposed, very largely to preserve their own seats. They will also have the tacit support of all the non-Welsh parliamentary Labour party, the PM and the Cabinet. The outcome is then all too predictable.
There may be a similar split in the Tory Party, but it is essentially a very pro-union organisation. It is also predominantly an 'English' party. The LibDems will support a Yes vote.
I can't see the West Lothian question being addressed by either the Tories or Labour. Both of them for the reasons already explained. It would mean the creation of an English Parliament, which would inevitably lead to a federal UK. That would possibly be less unpalatable to the Tories, because they would more likely govern England, the largest and wealthiest part of the UK, for longer periods, as it is much more conservative by tradition, than are Wales and Scotland.
The most likely outcome of the Convention's deliberations is that the referendum will be put on the back-burner. Its sad because had Plaid played its cards differently then support for more powers for Wales may well have gained some impetus among the people of Wales because of the world economic crisis and its effects here, possibly because of what may happen in Scotland, and with the advent of a Tory government. A referendum might have been won in just a few years, but if its deferred, it will be for
a decade or more.
In the meantime Wales and its people will suffer, from a badly designed devolved system, created by a Labour Party which only took into account its own selfish interests.
These are only my thoughts. It'll be interesting to see how things pan out.
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Doesn't there have to be a General Election BEFORE June 2010? .A "minor timetable "consideration...but hey... Anyway...
The Revolutionary Druids (RDP) refuse to support this fatuous exercise until our referendum question?"Do you support a 100 year reign of terror to establish the historic Welsh Free State ?ruled by kindly Druids?" is included. This will surely gain massive popular support and triple salaries for Druid AMs. (and their extended families).
Today?s slogan?"Turn your aerials straight to Bangor?Be Very Welsh and live even longer!"
Welcome back Cmde. Betsan?The Druids will fire a salute to you during our combat training at Roath Park tonight?watch out you English Ducks.
4WRD DRUIDS!
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BTW: Will Helen Mary be making her (super chilli) devo curries? Will little Iuen Wyn Jones be attending and asking, please, for more???
Could be a new leader for the Plaidos very soon then!
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Surely there are 4 questions that need to be put to the electorate.
1/ Devolution - Keep or reject it.
2/ No more Powers - stop the LCO's
3/ Status Quo
3/ Increased powers.
We need to put pressure on to get a Referendum to confirm whether or not Devolution is still wanted.
It is after all the fundamental question.
The True Wales Website has not been updated since October - not a good.
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Message 7....
The USA, Australia,Canada?
Hardly good examples for federalist design.
For a start the constitution of the USA is designed to take account of the fact that all the constituent States are self governing, with the option to secede from the Federation should they wish to, as long as there is a set percentage majority in favour.
Their attachment to Washington relies on a continuing satisfaction with the Federal system and the constitution that all States have agreed to, and accepted. Even then, often with a great degree of reluctance.
Failure by Washington to keep to the strictly agreed Federal guidelines, and legal constitution could easily result in a breakdown of the Federation. The USA therefore is not a conglomerated sovereign nation.
Australia and Canada, are both federated completely, as conglomerated sovereign nations.
What sort of an example that could be to a federated Britain is any one's guess, considering the vast amount of historical nation building that has transpired herein for over a thousand years.
We have come to the present day on a raft of statutes, and currently operate under a vast amount of precedental law.
What has gone before is the basis for what is currently applied, until and unless Parliament alters, or amends the law, or makes new ones.
Scotland, due to it being previously a sovereign state, has also much precedent law of it's own, hence the difference between English/Welsh law and that existing in Scotland. This was taken into consideration when the Union was created.
Northern Ireland is an aberration, however.
Now, what is being asked for in Wales, is similar law making powers, without either the need for them, or the agreed acceptance by the REAL majority, not just a skimpy one, that put that mess in slow motion down in the Bay.
As soon as Wales has powers to make laws itself, there will be an immediate breakdown of cohesion between us and our eastern neighbours, and no matter who says otherwise, that is the plain fact of the matter.
We have little in the way of Welsh, as such, precedential laws here in Wales, we have operated quite satisfactorily for centuries under the cloak of English law, there is no need to alter the circumstances of our daily lives, just to sate the insane ambitions of a few, who see themselves as the new ruling elite of a separated Wales nation.
There is also another danger to our future, should a certain religious group see opportunity to worm it's way in, it will be far easier to do so, via the minuscule size of a very much smaller region that Wales could become, than if it should attempt to gain a foothold were we to remain attached to England. Wales is not too far removed from it's old chapel mentality, especially in the Cymraeg speaking areas, it would appear, when reading much of the published info about those areas.
The bigger picture is always in my minds eye, that is why I cannot abide, or tolerate any attempt to fracture the status quo.
For me the reversion to pre 1997 is imperative.
I am all for a federalised Europe, to which we should belong as a member State akin to Luxembourg or Ireland, but until such an attachment exists, no way should Wales go it alone, which is the outcome of all this devolution nonsense, and emphasis on the language.
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Betsan brought a curry lunch to the table, but in error left a bag of worms, the lunch was wrapped in paper entitled .....
All Wales Convention - Consultation Questions, 8 in total.
Q1. In general, what level of understanding do you think there is in Wales of the current devolution settlement? For example:
? Is the principle of separation of powers between the Welsh Assembly Government and the National Assembly for Wales (?the Assembly?) understood: the executive role of the Assembly Government, and the Assembly?s role in scrutinising the Assembly Government?
? Are the devolved policy areas easily identifiable within Wales?
? Is the distinction between the Welsh Assembly Government?s executive authority in devolved policy areas, and the Assembly?s legislative powers in some of those devolved policy areas, like health, understood?
? The Assembly can, under the present system, gradually acquire legislative powers in a wider range of devolved policy areas. Is this widely recognised?
? The Assembly carries out its scrutiny role in both plenary and Assembly committees. Is this appreciated?
Q2. What do you think has been the practical outcome of devolution in Wales? For example:
? Can you give examples of where devolution has produced results that, in your opinion, better serve the people of Wales than would have been likely or possible before devolution?
? Can you give examples of where devolution has not produced results that, in your opinion, better serve the people of Wales than would have been likely or possible before devolution?
? Has devolution changed perceptions of Wales, either within or outside Wales, or both?
Q3. How well, in your view, does the current devolution settlement work? For example:
? Do the current arrangements allow the Welsh Assembly Government to deliver effective government in devolved policy areas?
? Do the current arrangements allow the Assembly to provide effective scrutiny of the Welsh Assembly Government?
Q4. How successful have the Welsh Assembly Government and the Assembly been in dealing with legislation for Wales? Please tell us about any experience or involvement you have had in the legislative process, and any Assembly Measures or pieces of subordinate legislation which have had an effect on any aspect of your life or work.
Q5. If there were a referendum under the Government of Wales Act 2006, the basic choice would be between sticking with the current arrangements for the Assembly to acquire legislative powers (to pass Measures) in devolved policy areas gradually, through a process where Westminster agrees to transfer powers block by block; or allowing the Assembly to exercise legislative powers (to pass Acts) in the full range of devolved policy areas immediately, by transferring those powers as a package. [The current powers of the Assembly to pass Measures are as set out in Part 3 and Schedule 5 of the Government of Wales Act 2006; the option of giving the Assembly powers to pass Acts, following endorsement in a referendum, is set out in Part 4 and Schedule 7 of the Government of Wales Act 2006.]
? What do you think are the advantages and disadvantages of sticking with the current system, where the Assembly acquires powers to pass Measures gradually? What do you think of the process for acquiring powers to pass Measures, through either a Legislative Competence Order (LCO) or through including provisions in a UK Parliamentary Act?
? What do you think are the advantages and disadvantages of moving to a system where the Assembly can pass Acts in the full range of devolved policy areas, without having to go through a process of adding powers gradually by agreeing LCOs or provisions in UK Acts?
? Which of these options do you prefer, and for what reasons?
Q6. Do you feel that there are any bureaucratic or capacity issues, within the civil service, National Assembly Parliamentary Service, civil society or the legal community that would need to be addressed before powers to pass Acts could be transferred to the Assembly?
Q7. What do you think the impact of moving to allow the Assembly to pass Acts, as provided for in Part 4 of the Government of Wales Act 2006, would be on the legal system and legal profession in Wales?
Q8. Do you believe the time is now right for the people of Wales to be given the opportunity to make a judgment, through a referendum, on whether or not to introduce powers for the Assembly to pass Acts, as set out in Part 4 of the Government of Wales Act 2006?
Well, I don't think many people will get past question 1, and if they are unable to progress past question 1 how can the other questions be answered honestly, it's not because people are failures, but because there has been nobody explaining.
Who does it benefit by not explaining devolution, it must be those who might benefit from it.
This makes me angry.
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Message 20....
If that was NOT tongue in cheek, I suggest we should be ready to accept further devolved powers as a fait accompli.
If those are the sort of questions the average man in the street will be required to answer, then the battle, the campaign and the war against further devolvement, and the march to separation, and independence, is lost.
As far as I see it, every one of thsoe 'questions' are slanted to make
people believe it is all done and dusted.
I have a more basic list of questions, which need correctly formulating, ...having read that little lot.
I shall no doubt return to the matter at a later date.
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mapexx, I was not clear enough .....
The list of questions are the list the All Wales Convention has compiled, they are the preferred consultation questions when making a formal submission to the Convention..
If you wish to submit evidence you have until Saturday 31 January 2009.
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"For a start the constitution of the USA is designed to take account of the fact that all the constituent States are self governing, with the option to secede from the Federation should they wish to, as long as there is a set percentage majority in favour"
Mapexx - I'm afraid that's just not true. Some states tried this in 1860-61. Where on earth do you get your "facts"?
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re: 19 and 23
The US constitution does not expressly define the method of succession by a member State from the United States, and the nature of States rights verses federal law was an issue of contention still in the US today.
The 10th amendment of the Bill of Rights states *The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.*
Which implies the right of states to succeeded from the Union as the method of succession is not written into the constitution.
However, The Supremacy Clause (McCulloch v. Maryland (1819) is the common name given to Article VI, Clause 2 of the United States Constitution, which reads:
*This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.*
After McCulloch, the primary legal issues in this area concerned the scope of the Congress' constitutional powers, and whether the states possess certain powers to the exclusion of the federal government, even if the Constitution does not explicitly limit them to the States.
The two positions have not been reconciled even today, with certain referendums passed by states conflicting with Federal laws.
For example, legalized Marijuana use for medicinal purposes in California, or banning Gay marriages in some states while legalizing it in others (Which conflicts with the Full Faith and Credit Clause between states)
So technically, depending on point of view, Mapaxx and Dewi_H is correct.
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edit: The only error in Mapexx's statement here is with *as long as there is a set percentage majority in favour* as no such method is in place.
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"DEVO FEVER...
There were angry riots in Newport last night as hundreds of enraged voters and their dogs surged through the streets demanding "Primary Powers Now!" and "All The Way With Cardif Bay!"
Banners were hurled and windows smashed as Paul Flynn MP appealed for calm.
"It's just like the Russian Revolution", said Mr Flynn, "If they don't get their way, they'll storm the Kinnockoviks Winter Palace!"
******************************
Will you vote "YES"? Do you want six free crates of extra strong lager?
Text YES to Martin Fishpaste (ace hack) at the Western Mailslot NOW!
Is Nick Bourne the New Kerensky? TEXT us now!
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re: BLUESNIK "DEVO FEVER..."
LMAO!
You always make me laugh!
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._White
Case law is clear (if controversial) = under US law states have no right to secede.
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We're not going to get further powers in Wales until Welsh people actively push and agitate for it. There hasn't been an active, organised popular welsh movement of any kind since the Miners Strike of 1984-5, when the spirit of the Welsh working class was broken. The Assembly itself was created by a broad coalition of all sorts of parties and political groups and was a step in the right direction.
We need to create such a coalition again.
It's all very well arguing that our politicians are spineless and wishy-washy - they are only as good as the people who elect them. We defer to them and then wonder why they let us down. Ultimately, it's up to us.
There is a mood for more powers in Wales, especially amongst the younger generation. There is a group called "Cymru Gyntaf/Wales First" organising for a "Yes" vote. Our aim is to mobilise the ordinary people of Wales to push for greater powers. We need to motivate the man on the street and create momentum. We now have nearly 2000 members, compared to True Wales pitiable 20-odd.
The aim of the game is to create a broad-based popular coalition - and isolate the naysayers.
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Draig32.... I'm not a member of true Wales and nor would I ever bother! However I can assure you there will be thousands like me who have already made up their minds to vote no in any referendum because we've seen that further powers are the slippery slope to independence.
It's a shame because further powers might actually be a good thing if utilised correctly.... however there's no way I'll be voting for them so that they can be undemocratically and self-servingly exploited by Plaid Cymru and the cracach!
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I'm worried that this precedent will have all the mainstream parties resorting to this kind of 'cyrrimandering' to rustle up support for the General Election...
How to decide between the Tories / Labour and Plaid Cymru..
It could come down to whether you prefer Rogan Josh [Welsh Labour Lamb], Tory 'Where's the Beef' Madras, or Plaid Chicken Kymru...
Of course, if you go to the Lib Dems curry event you will find that they have gone to the seaside to have a conference to decide whether they should have a Veggie or Meat Biryani..., and you have to make do with a naan bread while they are deciding...
p.s. will the BBC be popping in to take advantage of their democratic right to express their points of view, and have a light bite at the same time ???
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To Cardiffian 2008 -
All political parties serve their own ends. That's a problem with the party political system. Can you honestly say that the other parties are any different? The current Government of Wales Act was just designed to paper over the growing cracks in the Labour Party after all, and look where it's got us!
A campaign for a Welsh Parliament should be above Party politics - it's about having a system that meets OUR needs here in Wales. Can you explain to me how the current Westminster-dominated system does that, because thousands of Welsh unemployed tells me that Westminster is failing Wales - after all, that's where most of the power still is...
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Draig.... with all due respect I have not heard a lot of talk from the likes of Plaid cymru about improving the economy. They only seem interested in the more divisive LCOs so that they can whip up more nationalistic sentiment takinfg them further to there goal of independence.
You heard it on this very site!! All one senior Plaid AM wants for xmas is the Welsh language LCO. A bit of a kick the teeth for the vast majority of us who barely celebrated xmas at all because of the state of the economy and Job market! yet this plaid language elitist (who ever he or she is) has decided that what Wales needs is more language legislation to stunt and hold back our businesses even more in their our of need!! and to what end? I'll tell you... because the more people that are forced to learn welsh, the more that might actually start to feel not British! It's all about the language and independence for Plaid! What planet are these people on?!?
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7828144.stm
sad loss to Welsh society...
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re: 28. Dewi_H wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._White
Case law is clear (if controversial) = under US law states have no right to secede.
Indeed, it *is* controversial. The decision was during the reconstruction phase following the War, with a very Unionist Surpream Court. At a time many States were under occupation and no longer represented in the US Congress or the Senate. So the decision of the Court, by those who uphold the 10th amendment, was itself unconstitutional.
Just like it is generally considered unconstitutional that the Supreme Court's decision that "Separate but Equal".
Clearly there is no real movement for any state to succeed right now or today. But there is both precedent (if unsuccessful) both for and against succession.
Lets not derail the thread any longer, lol, with a discussion on US Constitutional law. I am no expert either.
BUT...
I did look up a comparison of Wales with other US States, Wales and other Countries, and Canadian Australian States.
Suffice to say that the Welsh population is larger then a great many US, Canadian, and Australian states, yet has less authority to govern itself. Geographically it is larger then many US states, and many other sovereign states through out the world.
Wales needs a parliament, needs more assembly authority including its own legal system, to deal with the needs of Wales. Currently, decisions made in London fall flat in Wales.
Why some in Wales don't turst themselves or their neighbors to be responsabile for domestic government is beyond me.
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Several of us are curious to know if heckling will be allowed at these "All Wales Convention" meetings?
Also, if things get a little heated, will the hurling of curry and rice be frowned upon ?
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Cardiff 2008 -
The Housing LCO - which is what set off the current furore - was pushed by Plaid's deputy housing minister Jocelyn Davies. It was a piece of social legislation designed to relieve pressure in the housing market. So the idea that Plaid is obsessed with the language is simplistic.
Who's playing up the language LCO except the media? There are Plaid AMs who are big on the language (one or two of them are "language snobs" if you ask me - and I'm a Welsh speaker) and there are Plaid AMs who are more focussed on social and economic issues. Take your pick.
You can focus on the language and distract from the wider issue all you like but you still haven't answered my question anyways - most of the power is in Westminster so what is WESTMINSTER doing for us?
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With regard to 32 and what is WESTMINSTER doing for us I try to give my reply.
1 I come from english speaking working class stock and they have been able to live ordinary lives without the fear of police state
2. I have been able to work and own my own home,go abroad on holiday,and educate my children to University standard.
3I have a wide circle of friends who also fit in with 1+2.
4 The UK is a widely respected economic/
political entity which has provided a decent living for most of its people,particularly the ones who are prepared to travel and work.
4 For the few people i grew
up with who had exceptional talents they were able to flourish in business/professions/sport etc.
5 For all its faults the "welfare state" has provided safety net for all,even those who are not prepared to work. Well up to now.
6 Clearly the UK is not perfect in terms of institutions etc but when considering the world as it is the people are well looked after.
As can be seen from above I want no major change in the current position and neither do any of my friends as we regard the idea of an independant wales as a joke.
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Draig32, your .....
"Who's playing up the language LCO except the media?"
Try the lunatic fringe at the WLS, these are the people who would manufacture a division through society based on linguistic ability, linked via Meri Huws, Chair of The Welsh Language Society 1981 to 1983, currently Chair of the Welsh Language Board, a political appointment in accordance with the Welsh Language Act 1993.
Draig32, you can fool some of the people etc. .......
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Re 39
My friends in Cymdeithas yr Iaith would be delighted, and even more astounded to know that they wielded so much power!
But your main point is just one long sentence of generalizations and half-insinuations that really mean very little at all - which only makes it very difficult to respond to in any meaningful way, I'm afraid.
And again you refer to an Act of the Westminster Parliament pushed through by the Conservative and Unionist Party; but they must have been fifth columnists of course ...
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In response to Regional Skeptic:
You must be talking about a different country - or maybe you represent a different generation -
1) Our civil liberties are being rapidly eroded, and a wide section of the population now effectively boycott the electoral system. CCTV cameras are everywhere, the right to protest has been eroded and the right to privacy is being eroded. We have been whipped into a state of fear by a manufactured "terrorist threat" because the UK government spends billions of pounds on foreign wars. Surveillance is widespread.
2) As far as getting a Uni education goes who was it that worked to ensure that young people - especially from underprivelaged backgrounds - could get a decent education? The Assembly. It's not on offer in England. Devolution has to some extent strengthened social justice in Wales because we have a tradition of it - a working class tradition I might add.
3) We now have a UK government that has saddled future generations with debt - the estimate is £14,000 for every child born. We are mortgaging our future to bail out bankers. Some of our banks are techically insolvent and sterling's credibility is in question.
4) We have gotten rid of our manufacturing base and replaced the lost productive wealth with debt. That is why we will now have a Depression. Welsh unemployment will hit 150,000 by mid-year, the highest since under Thatcher.
Sorry to burst your bubble mate, but I see a different country, and there are plenty like me. Westminster got us into this mess - let's see if they can get us out of it. I'm not holding my breath.
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Draig:
your number 2)
please note this is only available if you stay in Wales. Another divisive, seperatist and insular policy put in place by the WAG in order to make sure our younger generations feel more Welsh and less british.
As I said before there is always either an independence or language agenda hidden in everything they do.... and as about 90% of the pop are against independence they are going to be pretty oiked off when they catch up with some of the more enlightened (to the secret WAG agenda) folk here.
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Cardiffian 2008 -
If you're happy to see Welsh students run up huge debts in the name of Unionist dogma, that's up to you! Personally I've always fancied myself as having something called "A social conscience".
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cardiffian 2008,
In response to your comment on Draig's comments about young people being able to get a decent education in Wales:
"This is only available if you stay in Wales. Another divisive, separatist and insular policy put in place by the WAG in order to make sure our younger generations feel more welsh and less british"
All emotion aside, isn't the real bad guy here Westminster who is failing to help the under-privileged yet intelligent young people to get a decent education and create a better future for themselves and their families?
I think we have shown the way forward and in past generations, everyone in the UK was entitled to financial support if they were on a lower income. The WAG has clearly re-instated a policy of financial support that was removed by Westminster pre-devolution.
Your energies would be better spent lobbying Westminster to look after and develop the future talent and driving economic forces of this country. The WAG has clearly shown the way forward and provided the young people of Wales the opportunity to attend university and make the most of themselves.
If I were young and looking at going to University to better myself, I'd be more than happy to stay at home and be financially supported than go to England and rack up thousands of pounds in debt, and as a graduate, I'm thinking the English are shooting themselves in the foot with this policy.
But if you'd rather have your kids in debt to show how great Westminster is.......
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I love the way that on here the Nationalists speak for themselves and provide reasons why they believe Wales would be better off with a full law-making parliament.
Compare that to the Unionists who speak of rightful places within the Union (rightfully achieved through subjugation by the sword centuries ago) and ooze confidence about their knowledge of what the masses think and how a Welsh state will fail before it's begun.
With such prophetic abilities and inherant clairvoyance you'd think that surely one of the Unionists could do me a favour and pass on the Lottery numbers?
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Perhaps Wales' right place is within a union, after all Wales, Scotland and England share the same island land mass.
To quote a phrase that makes my skin crawl I'm afraid the opportunity to "win hearts and minds" has been severely wasted over the last few centuries and the current Union is as outdated as the unionists would have us believe our nationalist beliefs are.
I might add that the 1707 Act of Scotland and 1802 Act of Ireland (now defunct ;-) !!) were agreed and ratified by the democratically elected parliaments of those countries.
Interestly the "Acts of Union" between England and Wales in 1535 was tantamount to annexation as no Welsh Parliament existed to ratify this Act on behalf of the masses.
The Acts dissolved Wales and made us a part of England, similar disrespect was not shown to the Scots or Irish during their assimilation. The Act also outlawed the Welsh language along with its "sinister usages and customs" and forbade welsh speakers (at the time virtually everyone) from entering public office.
Is this our RIGHTFUL place within in the Union?
Did they try to implement the current shambles known as the Goverment of Wales Act 2006 with all its inefficiencies and complexities in Scotland or Northern Ireland? No they did not and shame on us for allowing it.
Call me insane, but the British Establishment and Empire are very far from winning my heart and mind...
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"All Wales Convention"....
Scrap it now, it's a farce.
My 'spy' in Port Talbot assures me that at no time were there more than 62 'invited guests' at this pathetic gathering, not even the '80' claimed by the organizers.
I've also heard that the lunatic nationalist element have commandeered the available places at the forthcoming meetings throughout Wales. They intend dominating the proceedings, thus persauding the allegedly impartial members of the "All Smiles Convention" that everyone in Wales is mad keen for more powers to be given to the troughers down the Bay.
Every single gathering overseen by this disgusting "All Wales Convention mob means yet another nail in the coffin for British (yes British)democracy.
The whole thing stinks of a Plaid Cymru and turncoat Labour plot to lead Wales down the path of nationalism by the back door.
Tonight I am ashamed to be Welsh.
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Message 43....
So please enlighten us Oh Dragon so wise...
With Wales currently producing about two thirds of it's income, and getting less day by day, yet receiving one third to cover it's expenses from our eastern neighbour, who will be able to fund our ever so lucky non debt laden (ha ha ha) students if we pull out of the Union?
What price your social conscience then, old boy?
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Re 47
"Tonight I am ashamed to be Welsh."?????
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With regard to Noah and attendance at event in Port Talbot. Visited the "stand" today at Macarthur Glen at 10.00 when it was beong "unpacked " outside cafe and then at 2.30 to exercise my democratic right. Cannot comment except for my time there but they seemed totally underwhelmed. People asking pre-arranged questions very helpful and prepared to put full weight of opinion on form. I complained about range of questions i.e. why no question on closing down Assembly and told that had been brought up by other people. My conclusion for what its worth that this has to be one the of the most "pointless" exercises of all time. Let there be no doubt that the decision has already been made and as long as PC have their hands on power they will drive us to independance. As MAO said "The long march to communist power started with one small step" and thats what weve got with this "mickey mouse" assembly. The welsh people were sold a flawed institution,but in the view of PC it was the "first step" and they will not stop until the welsh people throw them out through the democratic process. God save the Queen.
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Draig/puredrivel.... Isnt it ironic that you should be singing the praises of what the assembly has done for Welsh higher education today of all days.
Here's a story on BBC news from outside your blinkered nationalist bubble:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/uk_news/wales/7832287.stm
Remember to do good for your country you have to occasionally question and test the government.... not just blindly follow them because your party has never had it so good and your hatred of all things English is so strong that any criticism of devolution is to much too take.
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To Mapexx-
Where to get the money to cover students education (i.e. investing in our future)?
Simple. We can start by rebuilding a decent manufacturing base and also charging a fair price for the resources that we export to our (supposedly generous) neighbour. The figures I have seen pertaining to England's vast wealth and munificence were attained before the financial industry collapsed and wiped billions off the value of London's financial services industry. (hahaha)
Everybody waffles on about the SE of England and forgets that it's built on little more than charm and worthless paper.
Wales on the other hand has an abundance of REAL wealth and resources. We are a net exporter of electricity and water, and wind. We have huge coal resources (very generously conserved for us by Thatcher) and we will soon become a major transit route for gas.
But like I say, the Unionists on here have no vision and no answers for their own grandchildren. They cannot even see the vast wealth that is all around them and even sits under their feet.
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#4
"First, what after 700 years, has changed our world so much that we are now unable to live together"
Is that acting under the assumption that armed invasion is 'living together'?
And noah if you are so sure in your ways and unable to listen to any arguments which contradict your points then go. GO and tell the convention what you think of them and your very stubborn views on devolution and the mass conspiracy behind the convention. But please don't bore us with you shortsighted views any more.
On the other hand if you cannot get a place in one of these 22 'farce' meetings then I am sure you will enjoy some night far into the future when the referendum fails, to the shock of the All Wales Convention and the Assembly.
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Cardiffian 2008 -
Hmmm. You forgot to mention this little gem:
"There is a need for officials within Whitehall to have a better understanding of devolution as there is an impression that some officials believe that it means that they can 'forget' about Wales," said the report.
And maybe you'd care to enlighten us as to which budget pot you propose the Assembly should raid to iron out this "disparity"...
I'm all ears...
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Draig says
"we are a net exporter of wind"
:) indeed! However I feel a lot of this precious resource is going uncaptured. I should like to see a large extraction fan attached to the top of WAG building!
p.s. Almost every country in eastern europe has a gas pipeline running through it (although you mean LNG as in Wales' case).... so what? If push came to shove it means nothing.
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Look Draig... we cant have it both ways! Prior to devolution that wouldnt have been an issue... we'd all have been treated the same.
Now of course we've got fruitcake nationalists running round wasting public money on producing pamphlets saying that you cant call Welsh people British (oh yes they do like to speak for all of us without consultation) because they will be offended. It's hardly likely to make us well loved and treated by our fellow union memmbers who's taxes prop our country!
Reality check for you I think!! A little less ignorant blind passion and a bit more thought!
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#37
Your comment on Welsh 'language snobs', from another Welsh speaker I can only agree. And will add that there is good and bad everywhere, not just in Plaid as some (noah) would have you believe.
Also on comments 39 and 40. I am a Welsh Language Society member. And I realise the glee that noah must be feeling now, but I was not aware that we had any influence at all. All we ask for is the right to use our native language. I do not believe that the WLS has a political agenda, as shown by our continued campaigning against an Assembly with Plaid in coalition, and in our protests against school closures in Gwynedd, etc. If the WLS had a political agenda then I am not sure if they would continue to gain my support. Obviously the WLS would like to see Plaid in power due to their Welsh language commitments, but so far all we have had is dissapointment.
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51: Cardifian 2008,
Firstly, I could pull up a hundred headlines about the failures of Westminster if you want me to, and countless more for other world Governments. What's your point?
Every Government has cash shortfalls, that's why everyone but the oil rich nations have something called "Foreign Debt", google it.
Secondly, whilst Snoutsintrough and mapexx are hardcore unionists I do respect them for their non-emotional debates and I have personally slated the assembly at times, describing them as muppets during one recent debate (Westminster muppets too). So I do not follow blindly. Don't claim to know my mind when you don't know the first thing about me.
Thirdly, the funding issue is getting rather worn. The unionists would have us believe we'd declare independence and do no more.
The driving force behind home rule or independence is so that we, as welsh people, welsh speaking, english speaking, polish speaking, whatever... but us as welsh people have the chance to develop an economy here in Wales.
Westminster has never, isn't doing and will never develop a sustainable economy in Wales. That is something we will have to do for ourselves. If we sit waiting, Westminster will sit ignoring.
Belfast was booming til the credit crunch, supported by Westminster. Edinburgh is the largest European financial centre outside of London, supported by Westminster. In Wales...well we've a few mines that closed down 20 years ago and a token handful of foreign factories desperate to leave. That's not an economy lads, open your eyes. Sure they gave us a few jobs but ultimately, where did all the profits and taxes go? Not Wales.
At the moment we don't have the first rate political talent in Wales but they barely have it in Westminster either so it's one bunch of muppets following another as far as I can see and I'm not happy about it.
By developing our grossly under-developed economy through home rule / independence the funding shortfall would be made up.
To answer another comment that Plaid will be voted out by the Welsh people...Wasn't it the Welsh people that put them in there? I don't remember reading about IWJ orchestrating a military coup of Cardiff Bay ;-)
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When we were at the forefront of the Industrial Revolution it was because we had Steel, Lead, Copper, Coal, etc, etc...
The taxes went to Westminster. The companies were owned by Englishmen.
Maybe it's our own fault for not organising anything ourselves and leaving it for others to come in and tell us what to do? I don't know. I do know we've been our own worst enemy through time.
It seems the only get up and go exhibited in Wales over recent centuries was by those people who got up and went.
And I'll finish with a heart warming thought for the unionists. An independent Wales would be a very cheap place to do Business and given the amount of money in England and Ireland foreign investment would be rife and the language would take a battering, as it did the last time we had more jobs than England.
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puredrivel.... a very nice long post from you which means absolutely nothing except show that as usual the nationalists response to anything bad said about them is "look at Westminster" rather than actually try and address the criticism.
As for knowing nothing about you.... well the fact you try and spin that 'the people of Wales put Plaid Cymru in Government' when the truth of the matter is that Labour put them in power is very telling.
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message 59,...
Drivvy old chum, I did a nice long response to someone else about an hour ago, but thanks to the server failing me I lost it all.
Basically it was to answer the point someone made about Wales becoming capable of re building it's own basic industrial base, so that students could be assured they would get 'free' coleg and Uni education, and be rid of the debt that seems to be rife today.
I made these points....
It will take some time, maybe decades, to rid Wales of the debt it currently 'owes' to the rest of Britain, considering recent financial information has seen Wales only able to cough up 2/3rds of the wherewithal to operate. It's shortfall in 2007/8 was 9 BILLIONS. And it is falling further, as I write.
I then went on to say that due to our ageing population, of which I am one, what with the ever increasing costs of extended old age,... pensions, heating, health, housing, and whatever else must be taken into consideration, it would be folly to think that Wales could, under present circumstances, or for that matter, any such, for the foreseeable future, take on the mantle of running itself.
These fairy tale scenarios are not only stupidity personified, they are also cruel to those who see some sort of 'patriotic' sense in what is being called for.
As you pointed out, exotic firms are pulling out, credit crunch, downturn in the economy, worlds banks in crisis, you name it, but the truth is, they see the grass as greener where their costs are lower.
So what are we to accept?..., the lowering of both standards and WAGES, so that we can re import jobs that can be, and are, currently being lost from here in Wales, to cheaper and more up to date facilities, in some other nation.
Also must be seen is the likes of the car makers, along with Hoover, who are all in the doldrums, why? because their cars and washing machines etc are not selling, and who is NOT doing the buying?
Nothing to do with us guv, ...or is the truth, it is everything to do with us, we in Wales, in common with our cross border neighbours, are the ones who racked up massive debt, took on mortgages that needed three or more salaries to service, ran two three four or more credit cards and took out second mortgages and loans on the 'value' of our houses.
Now we are short of the 'readies' to accede to the governments demand to spend, spend, spend.
So, out go the surplus workers, and down go the sales, and, don' forget, the profits from those lost sales.
What seems to be missing from all this ...'let's get Wales going'.... lark is the pure and simple fact, that at the bottom line IT ALL HAS TO BE PAID FOR. It's no use carping on about all the profits went to ENGLAND, I would like to remind those who say that, that much of those profits came back in the form of subsidy, keep looking at the 9 billions we were over paid last year.
I seriously doubt Wales actually made that amount in profit last year anyway.
Always do as I do, look at the full picture, not just the bit in the corner where the signature usually is to be found.
Not just now, but at an ever increasing rate, and way into the future.
So we shove out little craft out into the seas of international commerce, where do we sell our more and more expensive goods to, from that boat?
We have the likes of China, India, the rest of Europe, a;; producing stuff that cost per unit price we could never hope to match. OK so we may make a few items that will enter the world market place, but could it ever reach sufficient to underpin the whole of the Welsh economy.
Long before we reached any sort of self sufficiency, we would need to find, on recent figures, 9 Billions, to set us on our way.
Where from? and how? immediately springs across my mind.
All the time, our educated young are absconding to pastures new, our old are ageing and their sector is therefore increasing in numbers due to life extending health care, costs are rising and can be seen as outstripping our ability to meet present costs never mind those that will occur year on year.
It seems many people who comment, re the present, and future status of Wales, just cannot grasp the nettle of demographical data.
I can be certain of one thing, that nettle will sting, and taking Wales into some sort of wishfully thought of limbo land ,will not provide the dock leaf to alleviate the stinging.
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The point No.59 is that we are where we are. You and all nationalists continually refer to the supposed iniquities imposed by the English on welsh people. I'm not sure if you understant capitalist economics as "profits" always flow to providers of capital. Why not have a GO at the Japanese for profits going back to Tokyo from SONY in Bridgend or likewise FORD also for its Bridgend plant. I am opposed to Assembly but do believe that politicians/civil servants are trying hard to get private sector capital invested in wales. If DUBAI capital said it was going to invest in wales our beloved Rhodri would be concerned about where the profits ultimately went,as he would have no "power" to stop them going. Its the real world now and was in years gone by. World wide capital is footloose and fancy free and WHY would they come to an independant wales which would almost certainly have the Euro/Brussel rules on employment cost/social benefits etc. The only reason would be if wage levels were substantially below levels in England and hence greater profits could be made. How would an independant wales develop the capitalbase to encourage inward investment with a depleted industrial sector and a public sector that is swalling up such a level of resources that it needs an annual BUNG of £12 billion from the hated English. If we are that proud of being welsh and hate the English so much why dont you and all nats and fellow travellers refuse to take the "largesse" from our good friends to the east and meet the loss of revenue by paying increased taxation or accepting much less social provision by our masters in Bay of Plenty.In conclusion i'm not a hardcore unionist but just a pragmatist.
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Damn it !
On a few forums which I honour with my presence, it is deemed that anyone who posts 3 consecutive messages (without interruption) must be a little crazy.
As Puredrivelagain had yesterday done just that (messages 44,45,46,) and today had already posted messages 58 and 59, he was definitely in line for the rarely achieved "DOUBLE TRIPLE" which many believe should involve automatic sectioning under the mental health act of 1983.
However, Cardiffian 2008 'snuck in' and prevented the entertaining Puredrivelagain from achieving his lifelong ambition.
Our hearts go out to you oh Pure one.
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A close friend who attended the YES Campaign for further powers event at Port Talbot informs me, the bay of Plenty was depicted as the land of milk and honey with Westminster portrayed as the place where wars are started, banks are bailed out and taxes highered.
....... and Sir Emyr has the front to tell the people of Wales the convention is neutral and not a public funded yes campaign.
A well known song comes to mind ..... Puppets on a string
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To Cardiffian 2008:
The pipeline thing means EVERYTHING. Countries in Eastern europe do have gas pipelines running though them, and they make a lot of money too. It's called "transit fees". They play the middle man between big bad Russia and wealthy western europe and they do very well out of it.
Let me give you a little "reality" as you call it. I did a few calculations for the new pipe coming from Milford Haven - what if we charged transit fees to export the gas to other parts of the UK and Europe?
Using Poland (quite cheap) as a benchmark the figure I came back with was £30 million pounds per annum. Which is about half of your so-called "education shortfall"...that's just for one big pipe.
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Message 65....
And just what was Wales input into the LNG pipe?
So it crosses a few county lines in south Wales. So what?
How about the Westminster tax gatherers start charging Welsh registered cars to travel along English roads?
Sort of making up for the English still paying for 'scripts, whilst ours are 'free'.
Sauce and geese come to mind.
Anyway, are you dead certain Wales does not actually get a transit fee?
Most of these things do tend to attract some sort of imposed fee. Something to with legal liens I believe.
But, at the end of it all, Ukraine et al are sovereign states, Wales is but a REGION of the UNITED KINGDOM.
And. as such, falls into the same camp as any other region, pipelines, electricity lines, water ducts, all criss cross the whole place, as do roads, so I would be very careful what you ask for, you may get it, and regret it.
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I understand that the 'Yes' campaign DVD, shown at the Convention meeting in Port Talbot was revealing: I, too, heard that a list outlining UK parliament powers put 'Fighting Wars' right at the top, thus adopting the now familiar nationalist portrayal of Britain as belligerent and imperialist.
Certain areas, it seems, contrary to the Convention's commitment to visit every local authority in Wales, will not have a consultation meeting. Caerphilly, for example, will merely get a caravan roadshow with no opportunity for open discussion. Does the Convention feel that the people of Caerphilly are not worth consulting or are they worried about what they will hear?
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#46 puredrivelagain;
Well said. I agree with every word!
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I refer to posts 47 and 64 where "sceptics" referred to the events at the "VOTE YES" meeting in Port Talbot. Does anybody expect honesty from this particular group as they look like "outriders" for the pro devolutionist/independance for wales group. Whee is Kinnock I wonder in our hour of need?.
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#69 Snouts
Where would you expect 'Lord' kinnock to be?
He doesn't belong in a democratic Wales because he belongs to an undemocratic house.
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#47 Noah wrote:
"Tonight I am ashamed to be Welsh."
I think most of us are ashamed that you even claim to be Welsh.
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brynt41, your #71 .....
"I think most of us are ashamed that you even claim to be Welsh."
I think unkind.
One would assume from #71 that Noah_sembly was having shame heaped upon him by the majority, "most of us", whereas he is a dissenter aligned with the majority, not deserving of your comment.
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#72
Most people, a large majority, in Wales stand up for their country, its people, language, history, culture and traditions. Its only a small number that have contempt for these things.
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brynt41, #73
If Noah_sembly at #47, whilst commenting on the "All Wales Convention" concludes that .....
"The whole thing stinks of a Plaid Cymru and turncoat Labour plot to lead Wales down the path of nationalism by the back door.
Tonight I am ashamed to be Welsh."
..... it is a valid democratic statement.
I think he has little to worry about as the outcome of the A.W.C. will be to confirm that Wales has little appetite for more powers for little known politicians, who are by your own admission not top quality.
Noah_sembly, have faith, the separatists amongst us have been put on their back foot, a "Black Swan" appeared in the Plaid Cymru plans last year, the "Cygnus atratus" started the campaign to out the reality of Welsh Nationalism in the 21st century, now Westminster and the primary political parties are taking notice of the extremists in our midst.
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Message 73....
You have accurate figures to back up that statement then?
Get real, the overwhelming majority in Wales, are Welsh, do not contribute to this idea that Wales is somehow a little bit of heaven to the west of England, in the main they follow pretty well the standards existing all over the western world.
If anyone is down grading Wales, it is the likes of those who constantly harp on about some invisible, or invented 'culture', a language that is irrelevant outside of Wales and a small part of Argentina, that is useful in SOME small parts of Wales only, and which is being force fed to a large tranche of our schoolkids without any justifiable reason, other than it's part of OUR 'culture'. which is demonstratably a false claim.
LIke I said... get real!
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#74 TheStonemason
I was referring to Noah's attitude in general, not simply that individual comment of his.
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Here's a question for you, TheStonemason, a person who claims to be reasonable -
"...the court service's introduction of the Libra system for issuing court summonses which was introduced with no provision to issue bilingual summonses."
Do you think that summonses should be issed in Welsh to Welsh-speaking people, if they desire it?
What do you think of a government that denies them that?
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message 77...
I think the government is being pragmatic, practical and outstandingly sensible.
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brynt41, #77
I am going to assume you mean the system that was described by Edward Leigh, chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, .....
"The Libra project is one of the worst IT projects I have ever seen. It may also be the shoddiest PFI project ever."
During a second Gateway review in February 2002 it found that Fujitsu had made "too many mistakes early in the life of the project" including a poor analysis of requirements, unrealistic cost estimates, and frequent personnel changes.
The responsibility is ultimately the governments, but I don't think the government set out to deliberately disappoint Welsh speakers, it looks as though Fujitsu disappointed everyone.
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76. At 10:09am on 17 Jan 2009, brynt41 wrote:
I was referring to Noah's attitude in general, not simply that individual comment of his.
***********************************
Good morning Brynt41.
To be made aware that you are concerned about my attitude has bucked me up no end.
Though your comment does read like the comment a headmaster might make on an end of term report.
Maybe "must stop eating curry in class" would round things off nicely. (wink emoticon).
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Re: Post 74.
Interesting reference to the 'Black Swan' theory. This must encourage those who spearhead the 'no' campaign, and be of great concern to the many-faceted 'yes' campaign.
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legendaryavocet,
There were a few swans, some got a tad angry, I think one or two swans established the "No" campaign following a series of very insulting posts at a blogger called "Ordovicious", he became "OrdoRidikulus", in fact a few comments by the more extreme Nationalist elements were what you could only call abusive.
Thank goodness for the Internet, thank goodness for Betsan, the more commentators showing opposition to extremists the better.
Hail the 'Black Swan'
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To Mapexx:
Wales input into the pipe was considerable. It was built by welsh and international labour. The installations were approved by local authorities. You may be stunned to learn that Wales does actually have engineers - not all of us pick cockles and shear sheep. It's a legacy of our manufacturing history.
We are perfectly capable of producing high grade steel pipelines and pylons too. We have a huge proportion of the UK steel industry. Again..all comes back to manufacturing, which we have.
Wales doesn't get a transit fee. As you yourself point out only sovereign countries get transit fees.
As for all the other things, electricity, water etc. We are a net exporter for water (even though we pay amongst the higher rates in the UNITED KINGDOM). The south east of England actually has a "water deficit" (WWF figures). And we are also a net exporter of electricity too - even though we pay amongst the highest electricity bills in the UK.
Oh, and did I mention I got the transit fees figure wrong? I re-checked the figures - the benchmark is actually Belarus (formerly part of the invincible USSR - another bloated mega-power). So the final figure was actually £71 million per annum - covers the the entirety of this mythical higher education shortfall - with £10 million left over to open a Welsh clog-dancing/cocklepicking school...
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Draig32, your #83 ......
"We are a net exporter for water"
Water is not exported, it is distributed, distributed to those parts that need water, parts of the UK.
you continue .....
"..... net exporter of electricity too ..... we pay amongst the highest electricity bills in the UK. "
Exported, as for water. Anomalies related to domestic electricity prices relate to tariff not location within the UK.
Nationalist drivel.
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Re 84
Insubstantial answer. Typical of the British nationalists in these discussions - it is either a display of anger, or just ignoring what others have said by describing them as 'drivel' or some other insult ...
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The reply at #84 was in two parts refuting #83.
1. Water is not exported, it is distributed, distributed to those parts that need water, parts of the UK.
2. Exported, as for water. Anomalies related to domestic electricity prices relate to tariff not location within the UK.
British I am. Nationalist I am not, leaving that to the Plaid tribes.
Angry? Only when I see so much money being wasted, taxes that is.
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If we can go back to the debate about further powers for the WAG. Perhaps we should consider that the National Assembly was voted for by 25% of Welsh people, yet, in 10 years, it has proceeded to the status of an Assembly Government, and been given more powers through the Government of Wales Act 2006, without consultation with the Welsh people. Yes, there have been two General Elections, with scant reference in the Labour manifesto 2005, to ?legislate for a stronger Assembly with enhanced legislative powers?, and the First Minister?s instigation of the Richards Commission in 2004 to which the great and the good made their submissions, just like the All Wales Convention is doing now.
It appears to me that the Welsh people have not been given the opportunity to express their opinion on the legislation achieved via ?the back door?.
I am not at all sure that the WAG has a mandate to exercise the power it already has. Perhaps we should be looking to a repeal of the Government of Wales Act 2006.
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Re 86
You say -
"Angry? Only when I see so much money being wasted, taxes that is."
Well, you must be exasperated by the Westminster parliament - let's have no more to do with it!
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Message 83....
You really should take up school mastering little pedantic dragon.
At 72 yrs of age, with a full working lifetime in all aspects of construction do you think I may yet become aware of the input of engineers into such a pipeline project.
I can assure you of one thing, I seriously doubt that many Welsh 'engineers' were in on the project. The design was probably based on similar stuff already in the manuals from way back in the twentieth century, invariably based on American/ British technology. I don't know of much WELSH input to Exxon or BP/Shell, apart from maybe a few employees.
I have no doubt that on the actual construction, there were many Welsh workers, Welders, Carpenters, Pipe workers, JCB operators and so on, all of which makes them unique,...
.... because they are Welsh??
Yes there are, or maybe I should say were,
Steel plants in Wales, few remain, and they are under Indian control. Not that Ia ma saying the steel rolled out here is crap, far from it, like the anthracite of old, exports were well appreciated,but they are rapidly drying up due to the current world drop in demand.
Other states can, and do, produce a helluva lot cheaper, a hurdle that Wales will have to overcome if it wishes to once again become a wealthy area.
Water is a commodity as you see it?
Many more do not so see it that way, the same with electricity, many wish to have those 'commodities' returned to public ownership, which apart from a few reservoirs, were established at public expense, and stolen for the City, by previous administrations.
The present costs of domestic fuels are crippling the people, and the declared 'profits' of the utilities, which at one time, were public funds, now sink into off shore bank accounts to join the vast billions of wealth that has disappeared from the system in the last couple of years.
To reclaim these profits for the people, necessitates either a return to public, and I mean BRITISH public owner ship, or excessively high taxation, so that those who pay the bills, see some worthy return for they expenditure.
But your final commentary deserves a response too.... if Westminster did not cough up the multi millions it costs to run the Assembly/WAG, those multi millions, which by far exceed the 70 millions you mention re Belarus, could be directly fed into the Welsh economy via the local authority system. thereby obviating the unnecessary waste of space, time, and resources, down in the Bay of Pigs.
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FiDafydd,
Money spent in Wales at the behest of the WAG, Westminster is only just waking up to actions of the Lords of Misrule.
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The Government of Wales Act 2006 was put on the Statute Book despite a promise that there would be a Referendum before further powers were ceded to the Assembly.
If I remember correctly Hain, when explaining why the Act did not contain wider powers, explained that the Welsh people would vote no in a referendum for more powers, such a result could damage devolution, and the proposed Act was the most they could get away with.
This current All Wales Convention is asking us to choose between more powers or the Status Quo. Does it matter - a yes to either will give Welsh support to the constitutional flawed and undemocratic 2006 legislation.
Somehow we should be forcing the debate into defining how well Devolution is doing - does it have wide support - do we need to look at the structure and administration.
What are the real issues - For instance the system of Law, do we need a separate legal system, what is the advice of the Law Society.
While the Nationalists continue strong support for devolution. Across Wales among other parties support is patchy and weak.
It is not clear that the Welsh people are happy with the current situation, or for continuing with the devolution experiment, Nor is there wide satisfaction with how the Assembly is conducting our affairs.
There is no independent referee.
Since emasculation of the BBC's investigative Political Reporting after the Gilligan & Kelly affair there will be no hard questions or conclusions there - The Western Mail appears to be dying, people just don't want to read or support its opinions.
Local Papers stay clear.
The clear stream of our democratic constitution seems to be polluted with some pretty unpleasant toxic sewage.
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Absolutely West Wales,
The CBI in Wales have been ignored regarding the Welsh Language LCO. I am reliably informed the tongue police will ensure in he first instance that utility companies such as BT will need to operate bilingually.
My question is how do companies such as BT compete on a level playing field with companies such as Virgin, sky etc.
Also, with the dubious way in which the Government of Wales Act 2006 was introduced, can the people of Wales get the act repealed?
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We now have a situation in Wales where nationalists and the political elite have the power and want more, the former because it is their obsessive raison d'etre, the latter because it inflates their egos and fills their purses. We must have a referendum in order that all Welsh people can be afforded the courtesy of approval or otherwise of the status quo.
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The former Secretary of State for Wales has shown poor judgement on more than one occasion, hastily putting the Government of Wales Act 2006 on the Statute Book despite a promise that there would be a referendum before further powers were ceded to the Assembly, was certainly one of those occasions.
He obviously knew that the Welsh people were, at the least ambivolent about the devolution of further powers to the Assembly, but wanted to preserve for posterity his own ambitious devolution dream, for a country that is not his.
The Government of Wales Act 2006 should certainly be revisited.
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Thank you 92 (no..) and 93+94. Sums up my position exactly. With regard to BT I now receive my"correspondence"from them through internet but my old bills came from England so will "totalitarian"powers of LCO over PRIVATE organizations apply where based in "Foreign" country.Surely "shareholders" in privatye companies will look for recompense for further costs incurred in this ludicrous LCo if approved. With regard to West Wales and BBC's " impartial" view on Devolution in Llandaff !!!!. Since devolution (which was bound to increase workload) there seems to have been an amazing number of employees employed on "politics" by our impartial BBC Cymru/Wales.
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re 94
You said -
"He obviously knew that the Welsh people were, at the least ambivolent about the devolution of further powers to the Assembly, but wanted to preserve for posterity his own ambitious devolution dream, for a country that is not his."
If any of us 'Nationalists' that you lot hate so much had said something like this, allegations of racism would have been streaming in all morning.
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96. At 11:42am on 19 Jan 2009, FiDafydd wrote:
If any of us 'Nationalists' that you lot hate so much had said something like this, allegations of racism would have been streaming in all morning.
Heartiest congratulations, FiDafydd.
I never thought that anyone could play the race card over a topic such as this.
That you have done so shows a keeness and sleight of hand not often witnessed on this forum.
Keep up the good work.
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Re 97
Don't make me laugh!
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Message 96....
As there is no 'race' involved, it would have been a bit stupid for 'our' side of the debate to try to bring that in as a factor.
We leave that to the ignorant Cymro who, as yet, are to understand the facts about the meaning of the term 'race'.
Education! Education! Education!
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"As there is no "race" involved"......and "We leave that to the ignorant Cymro"
Hmm mapexx. Read that a couple of times will you?
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98. At 2:42pm on 19 Jan 2009, FiDafydd wrote:
Re 97
Don't make me laugh!
***********************************
Glad to be of service FiDafydd.
Can I apologize for failing to remember that Max Boyce is the comedian of choice for you nationalists.Though I believe (and hope)that a certain Rhod Gilbert may have taken over that honoured position.
May I suggest Frankie Boyle or Sean Lock, might draw a chuckle from even a dour Plaidophile like yourself?
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Message 100....
I suppose you are thinking I imply 'race' when mentioning Cymro.
Wrong old chummy, I am merely pointing out that those who attempt to claim some sort of 'race' by declaring themselves Cymro are taking a totally false premise and accepting their falsity as fact.
It ain't... get used to it.
My point was and is, we on this side of the argument, do not even consider 'race', we are fully and well aware no such parameter can be gleaned from the argument.
There are none amongst US (other than those of exotic and ethnic origin) that are in any way shape or form racially diverse from the other.
Therefore we never use such ludicrous commentary in OUR submissions.
We leave that to those whose ignorance leads them to think false is fact.
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FiDafydd,
There's only one "race", the "human race", everything else is, dare I say it, culture.
Noah_sembly,
I do like your "dour Plaidophile".
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Internal job advert advertised in Wag by the All Wales Convention today.
"this will be a unique opportunity to be involved in a high profile project to take devolution in Wales to its next stage"
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The All Wales Convention has obviously not taken into account the existence of a black swan.
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Nomorepowers.... is that an ironic joke or is there really a WAG job advert saying that. If so then it a serious breach democracy and shows that impartiality has never been remotely on the agenda for WAG.
I have been hesitant to call the All Wales convention 'a public funded YES vote campaign'... but if such a job advert exists then I'll have no choice.
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Cardiffian - The job has been advertised internally by WAG.
Please look at 64
When the AWC only make the case for more powers for the Assembly - with the greatest respect and no offense intended how can anyone think they are neutral
I hope the BBC will start to question the validity of the tax payers yes campaign convention.
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well deep down I knew they werent neutral... after all their jobs (and apparently this new one being advertised) depend on it.
However, not having attended the meetings or seen the guy on tv I had no idea that they'd be a blatantly un-neutral as this. The job advert thing is hilarious... does it have a stated duration? I mean have they even considered that if people vote no then there will no longer be a need for this expensive and unnecessary position
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On this most historic day, I have just three words for every single negative, spiteful, small-minded contributor to these debates :
CHANGE WE CAN!
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message 109....
strange to say, WE on the other side can also use those three little words. with one added,...
....'Change we can....Back!'
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FiDafydd, .....
your "CHANGE WE CAN!"
Would it be democratic, or would it be sleight of hand, videlicet the recent attempts by Plaid Cymru to burden the Welsh people with their housing policy.
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As there is no "race" involved"......and "We leave that to the ignorant Cymro"
Sorry Mapexx - need clarification - I'm from Newbridge and my English ain't that bad honest.
Do you mean I'm "ignorant" when I speak Welsh or just "ignorant" because I'm bilingual?Or just ignorant fullstop? Be careful with your answer please.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Message 112....
I know full well you are not ignorant in regards your educational standard, no matter where you reside.
Ignorance of of the exactitude of the term RACE, however is obvious.
From the many messages placed on this, and other blogs, that contain reference to 'race' when speaking of Wales,and or the Welsh, it always seems to be those who claim to utilise the Cymraeg language, who throw in the ignorant claim that the Cymro 'race' are being attacked.
If there were such a race, that would be fair enough, but there is NOT. So such claims are invalid.
Of course they will insist on saying Welsh, when we all know that the Welsh are English speaking, it is the Cymro who are Cymraeg speaking.
That is why I say the 'ignorant Cymro', because they try to gain an emotive foothold in any debate, by misusing 'race', when responding to anyone they perceive to be 'attacking' their invisible culture, or their opted for language.
Sorry, I cannot be clearer than that.
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Re 112
Dewi,
There is no thought-process involved here, he just likes to throw insults - very much unlike most people of his age (he insists on telling us) that I know, a generation of rather decent people.
But let's raise the level - I had some trouble earlier because I'd quoted too much of what might well be under copyright, so have a look at what the National Poet of Wales has to say - yes, mappy, the NATIONAL Poet of Wales; it's official!! - here :
http://www.academi.org/home/i/133780/
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message 115....
Two swallows do not a summer make, nor calling someone something he is not, a nation makes.
I reccomend a trawl through a dictionary or encyclopaedia, study very carefully the definitions of 'nation'
Then come back and tell us all what parameters are met by the region of Wales, to meet those definitions.
The only one that comes anywhere near to it, is the one that covers the definition for native Americans, when referring to the Sioux, Cheyenne, Crow, or Huron tribal nations.
Certainly does not apply to Wales, for the simple reason there is absolutely NO defined tribe in Wales that can match even that definition.
Anyway, most people here consider it to be what it is, simply a region of the UK or Britain.
All the falsity of naming someone a 'national poet' or 'national whatever' cannot turn a sows ear into a silk purse.
But please be my guest, prove me wrong.
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"course they will insist on saying Welsh, when we all know that the Welsh are English speaking, it is the Cymro who are Cymraeg speaking."
I'm sorry Mapexx I speak both languages and am from Gwent - am I "Welsh" or "Cymro" -"ignorant" or "wise" - please let me know - I have a terrible identity crisis.........
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Dewi_H,
If you must use Welsh in this English language blog, provide a translation.
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message 117....
It depends on your level of attachment to the full devolution/independence idea, whether you feel you are part of this invisible culture, and whether you think Cymraeg should be placed before English in your personal priorities.
A case of schizophrenia maybe would be your potential?
Assuming that you opt for the Cymraeg preference, then make your own mind up.
You should have no difficulty along that line. Depends on how exacting your 'education' (or maybe 'indoctrination') was I suppose, and how YOU view the future for south east Wales..
Neither an English, or a Cymraeg education bestows sagacity, that comes from your level of intellect, but when you choose the side from which to fire your bullets, keep in mind a split personality cannot be then used as justification on which to base your arguments, all it does is make you ever more argumentative, with no real goal in sight.
To forestall any further comments from you re where I stand,... I am against devolution, want to see the dissolution of the WAG/Assembly, want to see funds used by those two, distributed between, as required, the local authorities, and the language placed back where it used to be, an aspect of life for those who have use for it.
To have it taken off the general school curriculum, unless there can be shown to be a demand for it, in particular areas.
In other words I want to my area, at least, brought back into the state it was in before that totally undemocratic fiasco of 1997.
This area, as is well known, did NOT opt to accept devolution, and that should be taken into account, which it certainly was not.
I could also add a similar comment to that often thrown at my side from the Cymro supporters, if you cannot take the situation why not move into a Cymraeg strong area, maybe to help slow the tide of English immigration, which, it has been mentioned elsewhere, is diluting the strength of Cymraeg in those areas.
But I do not really feel that is the way to comment, I leave that to the more rabid nuts who propose and promote independence and full devolutionary powers.
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118 - is Dewi_H being censored for quoting from a previous entry?!
120 - In other words, mapexx, anyone who disagrees with what you say - which is written in very strange English, actually - is ignorant. Not much room for discussion there then.
You don't have to insult people for their beliefs every time you write, just explain quietly why you think they are wrong...
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As I stated, YOU choose your side.
In such a debate as this, you cannot play Mugwump, you are on one side of the debate or the other.
It's not a very complimentary idea to yourself to be sitting there on the fence sniping, just because you happen to speak two languages.
You either wish to follow through with the whole devolutionary concept, to independence, or you don't.
That is why 'ignorance' plays a big part in the matter, if you consider you are in neither camp, then refrain from commenting, don't try the usual ploy others go for, calling me over for insulting you, what else do you expect, other than strong rhetoric, if you fail to set for one side or the other.
If you are so confused as to not know which side you opt for, then again, refrain from comment until you are certain of your alliegence.
If you are certain, then lets be having you, stop sniping at anyone who fails to come into your camp.
This is what you accuse others of, and it's getting boring..
You also throw in that MY English is strange, maybe that is because you are impelled to translate into Cymraeg first in order to understand it.
I carefully read and re read whatever I write, and I see nothing at all strange, other than it is usual for self confessed Cymraeg speakers to make such comments, whenever their cosy little world is being scrutinised.
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THe house rules:
stuff is removed if it's
"written in anything other than English - Welsh and Gaelic may be used where marked "
I'll mark and translate the few words that I may use from now on......................
Stange that Mapexx has been using "Cymro", "Cymraeg", "Ysgol" etc for about 20 years without u complaining Stonemason.....
Mapexx - how about Welsh speaking Unionists? what do you call them and where do they have to live?
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Re 122
Oh dear! Shall I make it clear? I believe in independence for Wales; always have done. I also know people who believe in devolution, and further devolution, but who don't want to see independence. You can't see this because you're too blinkered. All of us on the pro-devolution side want these advances because we believe that Wales is a nation. You can't see this because you're too prejudiced.
You can't just hide in your imperialistic bunker chucking insult grenades at us, and shouting "here is my rhetoric, isnt' it great?!" That is no way to have a debate ...
I'm beginning to feel a lot better about Wales's future - thanks to you. Clearly you see the Welsh language growing and spreading, otherwise you wouldn't care. Clearly you see devolution moving ahead, otherwise you'd keep quiet.
So thank you very much indeed!!!
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Messages 123 and 124.
If you are so concerned that I am so wrong, how about setting the record straight?
I have given you the option to prove your premise is incorrect, re the status of Wales, you seem unwilling, but more than likely, incapable, of doing so.
I do it, not because I am anti Wales, anti Welsh, but simply because it is you that are wrong,.... End of.
Re: the matter of Cymraeg speaking Unionists, so there may be a few, but not many appear on this, or other boards to defend themselves, or their possible situation. Are you one?
I say this because those that have appeared, invariably demand they create a status for Wales that I find untenable.
The same reasoning is behind my constant use of the CORRECT names for the language and the non geographical entity that many wish for, Cymro.
I am simply applying the correct titles out of common courtesy to those who see themselves as speakers of that language, and who wish to opt for the correct title of the place they would,. if they could, live in.
However that said, I refer you to my previous comment, you will find the correct name for the language on the title page of your language dictionary, which is Cymraeg.
NOT WELSH, that is reserved for those who speak English.
Finally ...I do not see the language
'growing'... a silly term.. expanding, which is not the same, but still not expanding.
Yes, it is being forced into the school environment, but that is the operative term "IN", outside of it, even in strong Cymraeg speaking areas, the kids invariably revert to English, because that is the language they normally find and use, everywhere they turn, TV, Radio, magazines, games, Internet, and wherever else you can think of. All the money thrown at the language, all the pressures being forced, will not change that. And before you quote S4C or radio Cymru, just how many of the kids, even in Ysgol, actually tune in to those channels, once outside of Ysgol?.
According to audience research figures, not very many.
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Re 125
That you are wrong is no concern of mine!
You also set me a challenge - again in inadequate English -
"I have given you the option to prove your premise is incorrect (sic!!!), re the status of Wales, you seem unwilling, but more than likely, incapable, of doing so."
A strange challenge, can't you do it yourself?But I think I know what you mean :
I imagine that you wouldn't think of visiting the National Museum of Wales, or reading an ancient manuscript at the National Library of Wales; you certainly wouldn't want to enjoy a nice cup of coffee at the Senedd - home of the National Assembly of Wales; you would probably laugh at the idea of visiting the National Eisteddfod of Wales; you have told us before that you would refuse to join with your fellow Welshmen and women in singing our National Anthem before our national sporting teams do battle; and you probably wouldn't be able to relax after a nice day at the National Botanical Gardens of Wales. I could go on ...
Perhaps you'd also like me to explain to you why water is wet, and why beer makes us drunk?
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Message 126....
....yes how clever you managed to pick up that 'incorrect' when I should have edited with more care.
Must be the school teacher in you. Pedant!
As for the rest.....
I totally agree with every word. Why should I, a Welsh person wish to become embroiled in such stuff, it has no relevance to me.
Nor, I would suggest, going on the demonstrable signs of total disinterest, to 70 to 80% of the population of this region...Wales.
Why should I not be happy singing any song that I like the sound of, and keep in mind, just because the Cymro state the song mentioned is 'our national anthem', does not make it so, any more than Sospan Fach.
WE are not a nation, plain and simple, we are, repetitively saying it again and again, a REGION of Britain, just as the north east, west, south or south east regions of Britain are.
As for the venues you list, where was the national Mining Museum of Wales?
The whole of Blaenavon, a World heritage site, virtually the whole of south east Wales simply cluttered with historical artefact's, but of course few actually fall under the mantle of being part of your Cymraeg culture do they?
Then again, they are far more relevant to the vast majority of the non Cymraeg speakers, not only from Wales, but across the world.
I don't see many coaches trooping up to the 'Nat' Library of Wales, but hundreds every year pass through my immediate area to visit Blaenavon, and the Big Pit museum, from all corners of Europe America and elsewhere on the globe.
We don't rely on the day trippers from Manchester, Birmingham and Liverpool, who visit, spend a few quid in coffee shops and such, then buy up the houses being sold by WELSH people.
So none of your regurgitated moaning about the incoming English who are diluting the language, and eroding what little bit of culture remains in your areas of concern.
Your own people are just as much to blame for those factors effecting what you seem to think you have to defend and promote.
The difference is old chum, it's where the money is, the income for our region, the Euro's and Dollars, as well as the unloved British pound, that these people bring.
I wonder, if assessed, just what the differential would be between what comes in to south east Wales, from tourism, plus that made in the area by industry, when compared to the amounts generated in those places you mentioned?
I have a very nice garden of my own, I have no need to visit the Botanical Gardens, what can better an unobscurred view of the southern arm of the Beacons National Park, with a expansive view of the Severn Estuary some fifteen mles to my south.
By the way, read no importance in the reference to the Beacons 'National' Park, as that is part of the national park establishment of Britain, and implies no nationhood to Wales per se.
Cup of coffee in the Senned? You must have a comedic gene in there somewhere.
Yes, do go ahead and explain why water is wet, it may help educate a few who live in la la land Cymru.
The beer comment I would suggest is probably the cause of your latest missive.
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Re 127
You say :
"....yes how clever you managed to pick up that 'incorrect' when I should have edited with more care.
Must be the school teacher in you. Pedant!"
No, actually, it's the love of language, indeed of languages.
Again you say :
"So none of your regurgitated moaning about the incoming English who are diluting the language, and eroding what little bit of culture remains in your areas of concern."
This just sums you up perfectly. You start off with a false accusation, again. I've not said a word about 'incoming English'. And then of course you can't resist a little nasty, and, of course, ignorant dig at the end.
Also, your local knowledge of the south east seems a bit suspect, as you clearly don't know that Big Pit is actually a constituent part of National Museum Wales, as it is now called.
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Message 128....
What has the overseeing authority of Big Pit got to with my commentary?
Did I not mention the 'National Mining Museum of Wales.? or did you miss that?
I would say you should be a little more interested in reading what is IN the commentary, not what YOU read into it.
One of the problems with those who declare they are lovers of language, they tend to be exactly what I called you...Pedantic... and full of the lecturing attitude.
I happen to live just one and half miles from Big Pit, by the way, and am totally familiar with it, and as stated, before, it's visiting clientele.
Miners who worked there, prior to it's close as a working mine, are neighbours and firends of mine.
No, you may not have said anything about the incoming house buyers, but that was a general comment aimed at others who, in the same camp as yourself, have made moaning remarks about the matter.
The 'dig at the end' was in direct response to the similarly 'ignorant' remarks at the end of message 126. or don't you consider your remarks to be insulting and ignorant?.
In fact that little bit about the water and
beer was almost to thye word what I have heard from school teachers before now, it was sarcasm,... and that has been described as the lowest form of wit.
Maybe be something to do with your feeling of superiority, 'cos you can speak more than one language.
Got any more silly comments to make?
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re 129 mapexx
"I would say you should be a little more interested in reading what is IN the commentary, not what YOU read into it."
By the gods this could apply to you 1000 fold! lol
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Message 130...
So childish.
Leanred well in Ysgol, the usual nonsensical crap attempting to turn the discussion to a different direction because your arguments do not hold water.
Carry on regardless, I'm used to the drivel emanating from the nationalistic rabid language nutters
Sticks and stones, cariad fach!.
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Re 131
How does this kind of comment add anything to what ought to be a civilized debate? Mapexx may not have any decency or manners, but that's his problem not ours.
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message 132...
No, it does not add anything, but it does take away the ridiculous insulting half witted counter arguments that bear little relationship to the subject matter.
Just as with your message, you have the option to ignore whatever I write, not throw in your pitiful attempts to have a dig at yours truly. Who by the way has been arguing with your sort of submissions for years. and can hold his own very well, despite the insults and downputting efforts.
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Re 133
I'm glad to hear that you agree with me.
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Message 134...
I am glad you are glad, but I refer you back to message 131.
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Re 135
You mean the message you've just accepted that adds nothing to an intelligent debate?!
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