Bucket loads
Who needs meetings?
Today, apparently, me and lots of them .At one, I found myself harking back to Port Talbot, to the Seaside Leisure and Labour Club and yet another meeting - one that probably felt it deserved to spelled with a big 'M'.
A lot has been written already about the All Wales Convention's first attempt to set out what would be at stake in a referendum, what would not and to sense whether more want to press ahead and vote yes than do not.
People wanted to talk and found their job was mostly to listen while others talked at them. That went down very, very badly. Despite having a budget of a million pounds there was just the one microphone - a sign, you feared, that there had never been a plan to hear very much from the audience. There were props: a bucket to make the point that a referendum wouldn't be about 'more' powers. It would be about the speed of delivery. Do we go to London and ask if we can fill our bucket with a few powers at a time from the big vat in Westminster, or do we ask for the whole lot in one fell swoop. The metaphor got slightly strained at that point.
Granted, a shouting match would have led nowhere. There was little to be learned from giving eighty people, most with entrenched views and minds made up, an opportunity to goad each other.
But people wanted to talk, wanted to try out their thinking and the next time Sir Emyr Jones Parry comes face to face with the Welsh public, you can bet there'll be far more of that than was allowed in Port Talbot.
One or two talked with their feet and left, only to come back later, curious to know whether the audience had turned nasty. They hadn't - just. But what they did find was a scene that came straight from Ricky Gervais' The Office. There were marker pens, colour co-ordinated slips of paper, numbered 'stations' dotted around the hall and a baffled group of people who'd just watched a DVD that one half found biased, the other patronising. "Why was the UK government the big, bad bully?" followed by "Too Doris and Dave by half."
Once they'd been persuaded to take up the big, fat pens and scrawl their big, fat concerns, ideas, thoughts on paper, the hope was that the real debate would quietly get going. It will all play a part in the evidence the Convention delivers to the First Minister and his Deputy before the end of the year.
So here's a sample:
"Wales is a divided nation as never before" (A tick of agreement from someone had been turned into a cross of protest by another).
"The Welsh nation has a right to its own destiny".
"I want the same healthcare and length of waiting lists as in England."
"Can we afford more legislation? We can't afford to keep street lights on".
"Let's empty the bucket in one. It's only a very small bucket anyway".
"You want more members of the Assembly??"
"My MP can't deliver even if he wanted to. He's one of hundreds. It makes sense for power to be with us in Wales."
"The people who need to be reached are not here."
"The system we have now makes no sense to me. It's a compromise. It's wrong".
"I don't want to end up like the Bosnian Serbs".
One question that did raise its head: why isn't there a Yes campaign? I'm wondering whether members of Tomorrow's Wales, a handful of whom were there quietly listening, will be able to fend off the tempation for much longer not to take on that mantle.
In the meantime one bit of news to share from one of today's meetings. Cross your fingers that I may have some good news soon on that rare thing in Welsh political life: an opinion poll, one that tells us something tangible about how keen we are to grasp that bucket, or whether we're afraid there's a big hole in it.
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~11~RS~)
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Betsan:
I hope that you enjoy all of the meetings
that you attended...And, thanks for the good news that maybe deliver soon...
~Dennis Junior~
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The deadline for written evidence to the All Wales Convention is 31 January.
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This is really a meaningless exercise made worse by the shambles at Sandfields. If the aim is to judge whether the time is appropriate for a referendum then this is not the way to go about it. The Commission isn't even getting the publicity for their meetings right. Look at the Bridgend event the following day. The event publicity was hidden in the middle of the local paper which is only published on the day of the event. There was no other publicity. The majority of people who turn up to these events or bother to present evidence will be the usual suspects. There is absolutely no way in which the Commission will be able to judge the political temperature of Wales. Probably the only pseudo scientific way is to hold focus group discussions across Wales. The Labour Party held two such meetings in 1997 with the result that they found out that the 'yes' vote despite the public image was in trouble. Probably most people do not have strong opinons either way. They want results which will improve their lives. In the present economic climate the Assembly seems increasingly irrelevant. It isn't helped by the fact that despite Ron Davies's pre 1997 wish that he wanted the best AMs haven't exactly set the world alight. Most of them would have had some difficulty making an impact on their local community council. Where are the future Nye Bevans , Jim Griffiths and even Gwynfor Evans of the future Wales? They certainly don't seem to be interested in Welsh politics at the moment. Whenever the next referendum is held as in 1997 whatever the opinion polls say it will be a close run thing. If the yes campaigners don't pull their finger out it could turn into a referendum on the performance of the Assembly and its membership since 1997. Then just watch when those voters who are kicking themselves for not voting no in 1997 and who haven't voted in any Assembly election decide to give the political class of Wales the biggest kicking it has ever had.
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Excellent stuff Benedek..saves me my usual Marxist sarcasm.
What immediately strikes me is how FEW of the 1997 "Yes class", of which I was actively one ...are actively and openly involved anymore...Pundit medya academics from Cardiff Uni come to mind. ALL silent. The "Devo" God that failed?
Betsan ~ "there had never been a plan to hear very much from the audience"
Oh Really!!! WHAT a surprise!
DO bears in the woods etc. ?
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Just listening to the write up of these all wales convention events has me reaching for the sick bucket!
I'm glad that Betsan has used words such as 'biased' in her report! This public funded farce is a breach of democracy in Wales and when people find that out they will, as mentioned by benedek, give these self serving and self styled amateur politicos the biggest kicking they've ever had!
Even if I wanted further powers I'd be outraged by these dodgy, biased proceedings because what if I didnt agree with the next big decision that they try to fiddle (again!).
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"Despite having a budget of a million pounds there was just the one microphone - a sign, you feared, that there had never been a plan to hear very much from the audience."
Classic !! Oh, we love your blog Betsan...
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I think that a lot of people in Wales have a strange idea about the competence of Westminster.
There is an assumption that home-grown politicians can't be as capable as the big boys.
Perhaps the remoteness of the London machine helps to maintain this fallacy. Because WAG is local and people know more about it and and the people working in it, it falls foul of the "familiarity breeds..." maxim.
I would rather have poor government from Cardiff than poor government from Westminster. Especially as many of the English have total contempt for Wales and the Welsh.
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I am all for the independence of the Principality of Wales, but the way that these public forums are managed does not engender much confidence.
Re: 6 BeddGelert
QFE!
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thinkinand being message no.7:
stoke up as much race hate as you like about the english having total contempt for Wales (I'd expect nothing less from a blinkered nationalist) but this is not about England, it's about the UK.... and if you hadnt noticed we've got a Scottish Prime Minister and a Scottish chancellor (and no they're not both Gordon Brown) so maybe you'd like to have a pop at the Scots while you're at it!
Right now it appears that it is the All Wales Convention that is treating people with 'total contempt'... and so far those people are the people of Port Talbot and Bridgend (although lets be honest... it doesnt sound like they let many of the general public in!)
Say what you will about Westminster... if they tried to skew democracy they'd be had! I am just holding faith that the good people of Wales will do the same to this tax payer funded WAG yes vote propoganda machine.
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"Because WAG is local and people know more about it and and the people working in it, it falls foul of the "familiarity breeds..." maxim."
NOT so...if WAG and the wider Assembly (AMs) were really competent, responsive and actually "connected" and in tune with the Welsh electorate...which was after all the KEY claim of Devolution? I.E. Not advancing some fantasy land of the "Welsh Nation"...then there would be support for it and its activities.
As it is, as you say, there is a mixture of contempt and total indifference.
NO surprise there. Try spending "a day at the Bay" with the Commitees....and stay awake. I used top service the European Committee (RIP)
Why do you think Rhodri Morgan still dominates Plenaries after all these years ? What does that SAY about the talent!
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QFE ? Quite Fair Enough ?
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Thank you Betsan for comprehensive report on the event in Port Talbot. If the Assembly is serious about wanting more powers surely the "vehicle"for testing welsh opinion should have been a first class political event.The event at PT seems to have been a disaster and what a way to kick off this whole process. I did visit the exercise in Sarn (out of town shopping mall) and the caravan was pulled by staff from car park and was late in operation. It was not advertised in the shopping area and staff in tourist office (very helpful) had no knowledge but after telephoning was told it was located outside cafe. Then completed questionaire with assistance of team member. The County Borough of Bridgend has population of circa 140,000 people and it will be interesting to find out how many people visited the site and completed form etc. I personally did not see one AM from area at event but perhaps they all agreed to stay away from all sessions.As a "sceptic" this only confirms my view that the whole process is flawed and a purely cosmetic exercise but it wont matter as the vast majority of welsh political class/media/civic society(whatever that is) are in favour of more power to Assembly and part of current (WAG) want to see removal of Wales from UK by independance.The whole concept of devolution in a unitary state such as UK was and is flawed as when we vote for policies by incoming government at Westminster many of these will not be allowed by WAG as they of course have got own agenda. It will eventually lead to chaos and nonsense as in recent decision by politicians to ignore professional advice concerning neurosurgery in south wales.
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To counter the 'one mic' syndrome, when the next one comes to Torfaen on April 1, I shall be there with a megaphone.
There'll be no shutting me up, or out.
I think Torfaen folk will be not as compliant as those from PT appeared to be.
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The spectre of David Brent is looming large..
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/chrischarles/2009/01/review_of_the_week_18.html
How would the Lone Ranger handle this ?
And would anyone dare spike Betsan's autocue ?
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re: 11. BeddGelert
QFE is shorthand "quote for emphasis" in leet speak... used in many forums I visit. Perhaps not as universal as I had though! lol.
I was agreeing with your pulled quote, and agreed that I like Betsan's wit and blog myself.
In regards to the Betsan's blog topic, I think these public forums will attract only the most interested anyway,... which by definition will be the most strident of the cause either way (devolutionists and anti-devolutionists). They can not be seen as a definitive survey of the public, therefor. Only a gauge for the most dedicated to the cause.
(Incidently, that is what most of these political blogs attract: the most strident of either position. So raw numbers of posts does not necessarily reflect on readership. Getting audience participation is very difficult even in the best of times. )
Having said that, they should still provide better forums for allowing the public, that does attend, to air their concerns publically.
But still, the public can also host their own events, nothing prevents this. Perhaps by hosting "town halls"? I think it demonstrate voter apathy or lack of expertise in the issue.
In my political science classes I remember studying that in democratic societies only about 10 percent are really interested enough in politics to be engaged in it year round. And that the rest only get involved during campaign seasons. This is one reason why polls can vary so much and explains voter apathy.
Granted there is little advertising for the event (the day of in one paper, for instance) but it is doubtful that the turnout would have been much different anyway.
Most people are concerned with pocket book issues, and don’t know exactly what powers the assembly has, verses the UK government. They care about the price of gas, energy costs for their home, grocery prices.
When people talk about taxes and complain about government here in the US, most don’t know which taxes are from the federal government and which from the state government. There is no reason to think that the model will be different in Wales as it is a universal attribute in Western Democracies.
Most people complain about their elected officials, but then they go back and reelect them anyway. They pass most political business on to them, as they are the subject matter experts, and allow them to make these decisions.
That is why in other threads I told Stonemason that if his views are not being reflected in the AMs elected, then he needs to become more politically active. Because the AMs elected reflect where the people of Wales are leaning to. One can not say that it is undemocratic.
I think it is still early enough for the committee and Sir Emyr Jones Parry to get it right. But even if not, it does not necessarily reflect where the electorate is on the matter of Greater Competency for Wales.
And by the gods I hope the Welsh do vote themselves greater Competency. Its so self affirming!
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Drachenfyre- You are quite right about the kind of people forums like this tend to attract. If you look at the listings here its about 5 or 5 people shouting at another 4 or 5 and not engaging in any real debate because their views are so entrenched. That's one reason why I don't post here very often.
I've got my own view on devolution - fairly strong ones in favour- but I do accept there are valid arguments made by both sides. But, pro devolutionists make no case when they continually harp on about oppression and blame England for everything and anti devolutionists make no by arguing that any devolution must lead to independence, blaming the assembly for every ill and using terms like "bay of pigs". It's a childish debate and hardly surprising that the population at large don't take more interest.
Giving legislative powers in devolved areas to the Assembly or even expanding devolution further will not be a panacea to all our ills - neither will it mean the end of the world. I do however think it would be a more stable, efficient and effective system of government than the one we currently have.
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"You are quite right about the kind of people forums like this tend to attract. If you look at the listings here its about 5 or 5 people shouting at another 4 or 5 and not engaging in any real debate because their views are so entrenched"
Exactly...the very lowest of low who only come here because they've seen Betsan on TV and fancy her. Sorry Betsan but sexism is rife and if it wasn't you it would be Sara Edwards (BBC political prisoner 2009). FREE SARA NOW!
Menwhile, the Revlutionary Druids (RDP) are marching on Cardiff Bay demsnding compensation for the Double Dianond Club massacre (Caerphilly 1975).
BTW: The UN are today launching a MASSIVE Gaza appeal to addres the devestation. What price the BBC's managerial gutlessness now?
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"leet speak" Hmmm.. Another new one on me.
Perhaps there could be an All Wales Convention on lingo rights for that and for texting, with those cute 'emoticons' ?
Someone once told me that many meetings in Marks and Spencer are held on the 'shop floor' - These 'stand up' meetings are felt to be more productive as people get to the point quickly because they don't want to hang around as long as if they were sitting in an office with comfy chairs.
It might work here, although judging by events in the Europa hotel yesterday, they might judge that would be a bridge too far..
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BLUESNIK. I have just seen your ridiculous and frankly rather offensive comment. Do you honestly think Betsan is some kind of dippy autocutie without the wit, intelligence and wisdom to do her job properly ?
I don't even HAVE a television, so it does I'm afraid rather blow a hole in your argument.
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Message 16.....
As the person who coined the term 'Bay of Pigs' in reference to these blogs, I must say you are quite right in commenting that the terms used by myself and others are not very acceptable.
However, it is a fact of life, that unless some sort of emphatic rhetoric is used, which draws in comments such as yours, the blogs would be rather bland.
But to expand on the matter of devolution, one is COMPELLED to ask, for what purpose is it seen vital to Wales, any more than any other region of the UK, that Wales should have a third tier of governance?
Considering that the whole of Wales is not a 'joined up- nation' so to speak, and there is a lack of contiguity between north, south and hinterlands, and the language contrives to stick as spike into anything and everything being discussed, what value therefore, any sort of move to a devolvement in this region?.
The south has more in common with the region across the Severn, despite the gap between us, and the north east identifies with Manchester/Chester and Liverpool/Birkenhead more than the areas where the language is prevalently, and presently, utilised.
Our 'common' culture is purely centered in the western culture of the UK, Europe, and America, from where much of the entertainment, which we all are steeped in, emanates.
Yes we do produce some entrants into the western cultural pool, many singers, and actors for sure, but please tell me where there canm be seen any sort of Cymraeg 'culture' extant.
It is virtually invisible in Wales itself, and may be said to come to the light in the occasional 'gatherings' that take place from time to time.
Even those are virtually 'modern' inventions, when studied, and relate to pretty well nothing the vast number of opur people are used to or engage in.
But this is all about 'devolving' powers to Cardiff Bay,
Such powers are NOT needed, cannot be justified, except by a very small number who opt to, surrepticiously, try to persuade central government they should have the reins of control here in Wales.
Hopefully, when any further mandate is sought by Cardiff Bay, the Welsh will come to their senses and throw the lot out, and close down the whole shebang, for the waste of time, money and space, it really is.
In saying that, I suggest the labguage be placed outside of the political arena for once and for all, it simply confuses any, and all, issues.
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"19. At 10:52am on 29 Jan 2009, lordBeddGelert wrote:
BLUESNIK. I have just seen your ridiculous and frankly rather offensive comment. Do you honestly think Betsan is some kind of dippy autocutie without the wit, intelligence and wisdom to do her job properly ? "
ER...NO and NO...
I have the greatest respect
for Betsan's journalism...she is the ONE bright light in a drowning sea of Welsh punditry, by the yard, puffery. Intelligent, Informative but with a sharp edge.
I am also deeply sorry you don't have a TV ~ or any sense of humour/irony ~ the first (TV) is "fixable." Turn it "north" to get the Druids. They are "great".
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-Drachenfyre-
post 15
I do agree with a lot you say here.
But may I point out that;
Political Science is the art of subverting the Democratic process to achieve an objective opposed by the majority of the Electorate.
Over the last few years there has been opposition to the Assemblies handling of the NHS in Pembrokeshire, general public awareness is high - and the sitting Labour AM was thrown out because of the issue at the last Elections.
The general feeling is that the NHS is still being mishandled.
The veiw is that the Welsh English border should not be a barrier to health, the NHS is better run as a UK facility and those powers should not have been devolved.
For myself I had little interest in what the Assembly got up to or what powers they had, until recently, when the WLB imposed a draconian WL scheme on our wholly English speaking community.
The cost to the ratepayers is out of all proportion to any benefit, and within the scheme is a requirement to impose an idealised "Welsh Culture" which is foreign to Pembrokeshire.
There is also a requirement to rename villages and places with Welsh names, replacing existing names which are up to 900 years old.
At meetings to explain what was going on, the question of the Language LCO came up and I, in common with many locals and business people became very concerned.
It doesn't take much examination of what the Assembly is doing, to realise on those functions currently within their remit they are not delivering adequately at even a most basic level.
One can point to the failures of the NHS, and handling of the Objective one money as obvious examples.
There are many more.
Take the WLB - if the money that is being spent on legislation and enforcement was pumped into Language education and supporting (All) Welsh Culture.
Maybe we would see a better take up of WL broadcasting perhaps even a WL newspaper, - but as it is the actions of the WLB and the WL LCO proposals are destroying the language by turning those you need to engage against it.
Yesterdays Welsh Questions at Westminster was a professional articulate knockabout where a great deal was achieved - The First Ministers Questions in the Senedd by comparison was a futile waste of time. (most AM's seemed to be Blogging and not interested in the proceedings)
Devolution in its present form is not working for Wales.
It is dividing and creating hostility between the people of Wales.
It is wasting incredible amounts of money, and is certainly not delivering on its commitments.
So why give the Assembly more powers - we should be removing powers it already has and dismantling the expensive AM system and restructuring the way essential Welsh issues are dealt with.
We need bang for the buck and to get Wales up and running.
The All Wales Convenention is raising public awareness into the machinations of the WAG - people are not fools and can see this is a yes campaign, but it is making them look with a critical eye at what is going on.
From what I hear they are not impressed.
After the next General Election we are likely to have a Government that will give the Welsh people a proper say it how they are governed.
Time to start writing to our likely future MP's and supporting the Parties that will free Wales from this current charade.
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BLUESNIK - Oops !! Think I'm in danger of protesting too much..
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west-wales.... Can you tell us more about the renaming of villages in Pembrokeshire with artificial Welsh names. The last time I was there I noticed the Welsh (which incidentally was above the english) on the 'Stackpole' sign had been grafittied out so I couldnt see what we are supposed to now call it. Somebody had obviously taken great offence to a bunch of opppresive Welsh nationalists in Cardiff (who recently found themselves with some power) renaming their little pembrokeshire village...probably without even having been there or with no understanding of the history of the area.
I must say i do find it intresting that despite the cymraeg nationalists crying over immigration and dilution of their unique threatened culture in the rural north/west, they are only too happy (now theyve got a bit of power) to try and wipe the unique culture of South Pembrokeshire from the pages of their narrow idealistic version of Welsh history.
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Interesting, the NHS should not be devolved? Well the Welsh Board of Heath was devolved back in the days of Lloyd George - so I think you missed the boat there.
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Message 20
The emphatic rhetoric did not get me into the debate - it made we not want to bother because there is little point in having a discussion when viewpoints are so entrenched that those involved have to resort to insults.
I respect your feelings about the Assembly but whether we like it or not, in the referendum in 1997 more people voted yes than no. No major political party is in favour of abolishing the assembly, and all the evidence seems to show support for devolution higher than it was in 1997.
I know we can all find people who voted yes and now have thought again, but there are also people who voted no and now support devolution. I am good friends with a few of them.
The only posters here who think that no-one wants the Assembly are themselves very convinced devo-sceptics but given than every opinion poll have shown increased support for devolution, I think it may well be a case of wishful thinking.
The Assembly is here to stay, so we have a choice. We can either try to make devolution work as best we can or we cut our noses off to spite our collective face. The current set up is a recipe for conflict, its slow and confusing and the choice we have is current set up or a more streamlined and clearly defined process.
Whether you think of Wales as a region, nation or country, doesn't bother me in the slightest. But there is obviously some common feeling of being Welsh given that we seem fairly happy to support the Wales rugby and football teams. If Wales isn't a distinct region/country/nation I fail to see how one that includes Aberaeron and Plymouth would be.
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Cardiffian2008.
I know nothing of the South Pembrokeshire situation, but I am aware that there are moves afoot to 'rename' Cross Hands in Carmarthenshire. This seems odd, as it has only ever been known as that, due to it being a 'handover' point of prisoners being moved from Swansea to Carmarthen. Nearby 'Garreg Hollt' has, as far as I know, only ever had the Welsh name.
I think just having the one name for every place might be quite practical. Cardiganshire seems to have it about right. Their website is just 'CEREDIGION' to avoid confusion. When you travel through there you go through 'Pontarsais' - just that, and sometime later 'Temple Bar'. Life is confusing enough when you have Llanllwni, Llanbedr-Pont-Steffan aka Lampeter aka Llambed [also used on websites] without really exacerbating this problem.
Especially with things like 'Poniets' and 'Merthur Tudful' [sp?].
Although giving Pembrokeshire a 'funky foreign vibe' [even just for the summer months] might be helpful to bring in Euro tourism from Ireland and further afield.
They could even print their own special currency there to give the place a unique feel.
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16 Old Miwi. You are correct that a majority of people who voted in the referendum supported the setting up of Assembly. It was however very marginal even though all the main players in wales i.e Labour Party/PC/BBC Wales etc etc supported the setting up. I was opposed by since it commenced I have watched it with detachment but a degree of scepticism and if it had improved public services etc ,especially with the huge sums of public money would have agreed to more powers. There is no evidence at all of major improvements except that more money has been thrown at problems but evidence does seem to suggest that productivity in public services is going backwards. I am sorry to say that the place with ONE WALES government has been completely taken over by nationalist/welsh language agendas and the english only speaking welsh working class (myself) have been marginalised.The nationalists are only waiting for a conservative government who will necessarily have to cut public expenditure (GB's going to do it anyway after election if he gets in)to start the independance war dance yet again. Speaking to English friends they have a "bellyfull" of ungrateful scots/welsh who constantly decry the UK and the subsidies provided by the English taxpayers and quite frankly they could care less if Scotland?wales went independant. I reply that in my opinion the vast major ity of welsh people are happy with current UK and despise the "nats".
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Cardiffian2008
re 24, like most Pembrokeshire people I take no notice of what the enforced Welsh names are - so I'll have to have a look round.
But I have three;
1/ Haverfordwest - est 1110 - Given Welsh name Hwlfford.
2/ Milford Haven -est 1782 developed from the old Norse settlement of Hubberston.
Given the Welsh name of Aberdaughcleddue
3/ Tenby - est in the 13th century developed from a Norse harbour and fort with a long successful record of defeating the attacks of Welsh Invaders, - Given the Welsh name of Din bych - y - pysgod.
Apart from the cost to the ratepayers of all these unwanted bilingual signs, the real nuisance is the safety hazards arising from the more complicated road warning signs, by the time you've sorted out what bit you can read you've passed it.
lordBeddGelert
re 27
Pembrokeshire successfully markets itself as "Little England Beyond Wales" and thanks to the efforts of Lord Gordon Parry when Chairman of the Welsh Tourist Board has strong continental and American links.
It is a special place.
Though since the Tourist Board has been taken over by the Assembly I dread to think what they are trying to sell us as.
Comments from local tourist specialists are that they are not doing a very good job.
Lyn at 25 - Of course I would expect a Welsh Board to look after the NHS in Wales.
But the funding should come from a central pot and take account of the special needs (Dispersed population, Rural requirements, Transport Issues etc,)
Procedures and policies should be the same across the UK, The sort of nonsense of people in North Wales having to come to Cardiff instead of Liverpool for emergency treatment should simply never arise - nor should we suffer from ill advised and often incompetent political interference, or robbing the health pot to fund other things.
We cannot afford to independently fund training, research, building and duplicate the necessary administration.
The NHS has to be a UK wide operation - not a local play thing.
We need to get real.
Old-Miwl
at 26
"The current set up is a recipe for conflict, its slow and confusing and the choice we have is current set up or a more streamlined and clearly defined process."
I strongly agree with that statement - things are an expensive mess, and tempers are starting to break.
I don't agree that "The Assembly is here to stay, so we have a choice. We can either try to make devolution work as best we can or we cut our noses off to spite our collective face"
Was it Wilson who said "a week is a long time in Politics" he was right.
From where I stand the political ground is shifting - Labour (for many years the political party of Wales) is destroying itself and even with major changes is likely to be be out of power for a generation.
Here in Wales Labour is loosing its roots - at the last Assembly election it was effectively defeated - people wanted the Rainbow coalition instead they got the Labour party dancing to the tune of the extreme Nationalists.
Next time I can see labour knocked into third place.
The 2006 Welsh act permitting the LCO's passed without notice - Now because of attempts to bring in the Housing and Language LCO's it is high profile.
Many people are uncomfortable and looking closely at what is going on.
There is also the impact of the All Wales Convention which again is making people who otherwise would take no notice question things.
Add into this mix the economic problems many are facing, the need for rebuilding our Welsh economy, especially small rural businesses that are the lifeblood of many communities.
What the WAG is doing is starting to be important to many people, and an increasing number are seeing it as a useless third tier of government, that is not only soaking up millions that could be spent more usefully, but introducing devisive legislation that is going to increase our costs of living and cost of doing business.
To be frank the Assembly is a parasite living on the lifeblood of Wales.
If we want Devolution it has to be something different - But an increasing number of people are seeing it as a failed experiment and want shot of it.
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WestWales - Now you are just being silly !
"re 24, like most Pembrokeshire people I take no notice of what the enforced Welsh names are - so I'll have to have a look round.
But I have three;
1/ Haverfordwest - est 1110 - Given Welsh name Hwlfford.
2/ Milford Haven -est 1782 developed from the old Norse settlement of Hubberston.
Given the Welsh name of Aberdaughcleddue
3/ Tenby - est in the 13th century developed from a Norse harbour and fort with a long successful record of defeating the attacks of Welsh Invaders, - Given the Welsh name of Din bych - y - pysgod."
1/ Wrong - It is Hwlffordd, please
2/ Wrong again, Aberdaugleddau, and this is a sensible name derived from the Cleddau river which has not just been made up on the back of a fag packet by a committee in Cardiff. So shame on you !
3/ 'Given the Welsh name', NO NO NO - it has always been known as Dinbych y pysgod, and I think, despite my earlier comments, you are showing a level of anti Welsh antipathy which is unbecoming.
If you don't like the Welsh, what are you doing living in Wales ?? If you lived in France you would regard it as beneath you to mis-pronounce Welsh words, and would suggest that only working class people would not follow the 'when in Rome..' adage.
But when you come to Wales.. dearie me..
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West-Wales,
Did you know that English, and other International places now have Welsh translations, for example Oxford has become Rhydychen, do the English know?
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lordBeddGelert re 30
My apologies for misspelling the names - unforgivable.
The three I chose were the ones I could remember. It appears they were bad choices.
What does Hwlffordd mean in Welsh?
Milford Haven was built and named Milford Haven by the builders so why give it another name?
As for Tenby, I have no knowledge of the origin of the Welsh name, but why when it has been known as "The Kings Town of Tenby" for centuries use a different name.
Incidentally I enjoyed you suggestion that we should have our own currency in 27 thinking about that.
As for being Anti Welsh - well it seems I am being castigated for protecting my Pembrokeshire heritage.
We see ourselves as Welsh, fly the flag, support the Rugby team, in fact have contributed players, but we have our own very special Welsh Culture, different to the mainstream Welsh and many centuries old.
Our culture is under attack and being subverted by the desire of some, that all Wales should conform to the single idealised dream, no exceptions.
I can understand and sympathise with those in parts of Wales who see immigration destroying their Welsh speaking heritage and local culture. I personally think its a tragedy.
We have the same problem here, but it is Officialdom and legislators who are tearing down our heritage.
Do you wonder that many in Pembrokeshire are becoming strongly anti devolutionist.
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In regards to transparency and fairness in American politics/world corruption,please go to google blogger and find my journal of blogs (many titles) of Chaos.
http://www.Zzzoney.blogspot.com
Sometimes a so called free society is exactly the contrary. Included liberalism for a more larger government where upon the public citizen is bound by poverty and more and more dependant upon its welfare system as a form of manipulation over its people.
But the United States government was founded upon a republic of and for the people! NOT FOR THE GOVERNMENT.
Where are the ronald reagans anymore?
I can be contacted at: [Personal details removed by Moderator]
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A referendum would only be held if WAG was confident of a yes vote. Given the divided nature of public opinion I cannot envisage the Commission being able to conclude that a referendum is likely to be won. In that sense a referendum would be a serious political gamble.
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Yes, WestWales I'm truly sorry [ and for once I'm not being facetious ] as I did get a bit carried away there as some of your other points were cogent and well made.
'ffordd' is way in Welsh, but I guess without knowing the etymology of 'Hwlfford' we may have to 'play a let' and you can have that one.
Dinbych-y-Pysgod would be translated as Denbigh the Fish [roughly ] to differentiate it from the other Denbigh. Rather like Newcastle on Tyne / Under Lyme. You could even it call it 'Denbigh the Tenby' if you like !!
The point about Aber dau gleddau is that it seems very sensible to take the 'Aber' which is a handily brief way of saying 'mouth of the river' with 'dau' [two] and then add on the river 'Cleddau'. So to me that seems like a description of the place which has been around as long as the river.
What I find surprising is that if you went to France or Italy on holiday, I think you would try and get to know a bit of the language so that you could get a better understanding of what the place names mean.
Why not give it a go in Wales ? But you do make a good point about the Welsh Tourist Board - although I think their successor is trying to get into the internet age and ensure that people coming to Wales have information about the wide range of holiday activities which are available.
To try and end on a lighter note, my dad was once asked where 'Read-a-chain' was.
He looked at the piece of paper - it was 'Rhydychen' [Oxford]. Of course, even I still occasionally get flummoxed by Rugby Union.
I would feel fairly safe in saying that the game between Caerloyw vs Caerwrangon would be Gloucester vs Worcester. But if it was 'Who wants to be a millionaire', then a 'phone a friend' lifeline might be in order...
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Tenby of course is a corruption of Dinbych - incidentally one of the two Tenby wards returns a Plaid Cymru councillor as does next door Penally.
And of course many places have more than one name. In some Norman documents Whitchurch was called Album Monasterium, yet the earliest recorded name for it in English was Stuntaf, from the Welsh Ystum Taf, meaning a bend in the river. The Welsh name is Yr Eglwys Newydd, which is the name used by its Welsh speaking population, which it was for the majority of its existence. So often you have two linguistic traditions with two names (at least). Often both are correct. Some times one is just a slight corruption or a misspelling of one name. As for places in England having Welsh names, most of these are a thousand or more years old. They are not made up. They are as relevant in Welsh as it is calling Koln Cologne in English. I think some of these comments from some show an incredible ignorance of Welsh and worse an attitude of disrespect.
As far as the health service goes, the NHS has never been centralised - there were always local boards - some of which, like the Welsh Board of Health (run from the Temple of Peace and Health in Cardiff) predate the NHS. The health service was one of the very first subjects to be given to the Welsh Office and from that point on was not centrally funded but funded out of the Welsh Block Grant. Of course Northern Ireland's health service was never integrated into that of Great Britain.
The UK is a large country to be a unitary state, federal and devolved structures are the norm in the rest of the world. At the very least Wales deserves a large measure of self government as a historic nation and one that has very distinct problems from that of its English Neighbours.
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To add to Lyn Davies' comment on the onomastics of Pembrokeshire (which are of course entirely correct)
#32 West-Wales: Your arguments are all predicated on the idea that since you have no knowledge of history, there is no history!
1. "Milford Haven was built and named Milford Haven by the builders so why give it another name?"
Might it be possible that a certain place had a name before a settlement was 'built [on it]'? Cf. for instance European settlements in America or Australia. (Just as a few thoughts - I don't know the origin of either the English or Welsh names in this case).
2. "As for Tenby, I have no knowledge of the origin of the Welsh name, but why when it has been known as "The Kings Town of Tenby" for centuries use a different name."
Why not, if (for example, as Lyn Davies suggests) it might also have had another name for just as long or even longer?
Absence of evidence is never evidence of absence.
***
On another two points:
i) LordBeddGelert #27 suggested that Rhydychen was a translation of the English. Is this true (or is the truth the other way around or something entirely different?) In any case, both are names which have been used for centuries (no place names have been 'translated' in living memory). Interesting in this regard is the Welsh name for the place the English call 'Cambridge' - i.e. 'Caergrawnt', which contains in the 'grawnt' element an earlier name for the river which is now known as the 'Cam'.
ii) the 'Cross Hands' example (# 27 again) is of course not goint to happen: most if not all onomastics experts agree that places which have only ever had English names should (rightly) remain in English.
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Oh, and incidentally, one of the oldest poems written in the Welsh language (and therefore possibly the oldest written on this island) is called (in modern orthography) "Edmyg Dinbych" - 'Praise of Dinbych'.
The Welsh names of Pembrokeshire (itself of course a Welsh name) are genuine and usually very ancient. They - as much as the English traditions of naming, where genuine and not merely bad respellings - deserve to survive and be respected.
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Lordbeddgelert
"Why not give it a go in Wales ? "
As a child when not on the beach at Newgale, our holidays were spent in mid Wales, my father loved the mountains and the people - I remember crying as I stood at Gelerts grave and he told me the story, I have never forgiven Prince Llewelyn.
Then with my own family we spent many happy hours in our camper van at Cader Idris on Mr Nuttings field just above the Tal-y- Llyn,
Dinner at the Mynyffordd (spelling again?)(is it still there). Trips to Dogellau and Machynlleth.
A fry up beside Llyn Cau in the mist is magic, but watching the rising sun paint the south craig of Cader gold, with a bacon butty in one hand and a cup of coffee in the other is pretty close to heaven.
Snowdonia is lovely but too busy.
I love mid Wales its people and their way of life almost as much as I love my native Pembrokeshire.
Obviously I was aware that people were occasionaly speaking Welsh - but the common language in use was English, language was not an issue for me, the shopkeepers, or the friends that I made.
For me place names are the magic of an area - They speak of the culture, history and people of a place.
Which is why I resist attempts to artificially change names that have been in use for millenia, simply because it hoped to force the local culture into line with some general idealised plan of what we should be.
Holidays abroad are not my thing - apart from the odd weekend city break. Paris or Rome perhaps.
I spend a lot of time on the continent (Scandinavia and Germany mainly) on business, I have some schoolboy French, it is never needed.
The universal working language of Business, Science and Engineering is English, virtually all meetings, paperwork and electronic information are in Engish.(The French are an exception).
For a Science or Engineering Graduate of any Nationality not to be fully fluent and literate in English is a major obstacle to career development, they simply cannot communicate with their international peers.
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Never mind marketing to the irish and americans.... perhaps pembrokeshire could be marketed to those Welsh people (of which there are many) looking for a nice break from the daily stresses of having oppresive cymraegification and social engineering pushed upon them by the WAG. :)
We could keep it as a safe haven and communal retreat for us all to escape the one wales nationalistic nightmare being furthered on a daily basis by stealth.
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Regarding the case of welsh names for English towns, I can't say which came first in all instance as I was not there but I can tell you that before the saxons took over Modern England the whole island was speaking a type of welsh so the names are most likely genuine and more ancient than the English names
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Judging from the tones of his contributions, I would say Cardiffian2008 certainly sounds as if he needs a holiday - anywhere! And soon! Such anger and such paranoia - I'm only glad he's not responsible for public policy ...
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41.....
But you do not like the idea that BEFORE the whole place was using Cymraeg or a version thereof, there were people here who DID NOT use Cymraeg, or a version thereof.
So in truth, as Cymraeg is an immigrant language, it has NO MORE CLAIM to rights of existence, than the language/s it replaced.
Evolution is a dirty word to both Creationists, and speakers of an antiquated language.
On the one hand it knock apart the idea that everything was done in a six days, and on the other, it knocks aside the idea that it is vital to preserve what has been surpassed and superceded.
Time moves on, and those that do not keep up are doomed to perish, the same with language.
But to force feed the language to ensure it's survival, is to hasten it's total demise.
To add a political element to that force, will hasten it's demise even faster.
So carry on you Cymro, let's have a lot more pressure.
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FiDafydd....
and I dare say you could go on as many holidays as you like but it would never provide you with a much needed sense of humour. :)
Out of interest.... how did you lose it? Do they knock it out of you at Welsh Nationalist training camp. :) chin up!
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FiDafydd, Cardiffian is not alone. So many of us need a holiday from this new, oppressively nationalistic Wales. I would suggest that it is the 'anger and paranoia' of the nationalists, including the members of the Welsh Language Board, that is the cause of all this grief. The angry and paranoid are those who would take us back to the twelfth century, who still rave about Owain Glyndwr, rage against the English conqueror and commemorate the arson campaigns of various Welsh nationalist terrorists.
Even better than a holiday, though, would be an end to the imposition of this false and limited idea of Welshness on the majority by the minority.
Let's have the referendum now.
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Betsan,
I was at Port Talbot and can only agree with criticisms carefully weaved into through the wit of your blog. I was one who protested to members of the commission that the format had to change and quickly or the whole process would be brought into disrepute in front of the press and by implication the Welsh and as it turns out the UK public.
The 'No' campaign were clearly present in numbers, and were organised and scripted. Once they had the single microphone recovering it from them to make a contary viewpoint was a challenge in its self.
What worried me most was the low quality and tabloid nature of the 'No' campaign's script. It went something like as you will recall:
1. Politicians, particulary Welsh ones, are a bad thing so why would we want more of them.
2. All public services in Wales are worse than England's and more powers would make them worse still.
3. It will cost more money that could be better spent on services themselves.
4. More powers will result in our taxes going up.
5. They will only regard Welsh speakers as proper Welsh people and we English speakers will become second class citizens.
6. It will cause the UK to break up and Wales is far to small/inadequate to survive.
7. I already have an MP who is more than capable of looking after my interests.
8. Finally and most bizarrely 'I am just as Welsh as you and the fact I do not want to be responsible for running the affairs of my own country does not make me any less Welsh'.
These arguments are largely irrevelant to the fundamental question we are really being asked to answer.
The real point here is we are not debating whether these powers should exist. They already do. We are just talking about who should exercise them in those matters devolved to Wales. At present MPs (90% of whom do not represent Wales) and the House of Lords (accountable to no one) pass the laws for or delegate to right to pass the laws to the Assembly for matters that only affect Wales. The question is should they continue to do that or should the powers be exercised by elected representatives who exclusively represent and live in Wales? It is as simple as that.
As an English friend who was a political academic once put it to me in the most intellectual terms 'politics is simple really, if you have to ask permission you are not in charge........'
The question to the 'No' campaign is why are they so frightened of 'being in charge' in their own country?
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With regards to the earlier comment that Welsh has “ NO MORE CLAIM to rights of existence, than the language/s it replaced”. I agree, however, a people’s right to live through and use their first language in their own country (a right first language English speakers rightly demand) is accepted as a fundament democratic right. The exception to this are totalitarian states such as, Francos’s fascist Spain and Chinese Tibet.
But what I find most disturbing about the recent comments to this board is the use of “survival of the fitest” and “evolution” to attack the Welsh language.
There is a big difference between using evolution to describe the extinction of dinasaurs and using it as a weapon to attack minorities, in this case by those on this board who demonise the Welsh language and Welsh speakers and appear to see the Welsh language as a virus infecting Wales and see Welsh speakers as an enemy within – “the imposition of this false and limited idea of Welshness on the majority by the minority”. This use of “survival of the fitest” and evolution sounds all to like the “survival of the fitest” and “evolution” language used to justify eugenics in thirties Germany when those of “feeble minds” were seen as a finacial burden weakening the decent majority volk.
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43,
You know what Mappexx, the people here before the Celts arrive were known as the Beaker people, they made beakers from clay, hence the name.
Virtually nothing is known of these people because it pre-dates the known history of this island.
For all intents and purposes, until someone discovers what language was spoken, if indeed different then P-type celtic is the natural tongue of this island for 5000 years plus.
And if something was spoken before it, fair play, i have no grievance with it. Where do you get your dodgy facts that I have a problem with something pre-dating welsh on this island? You presumed a falsity as usual.
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44 Cardiffian you are supported!!.45 Well done in your "solidarity" with soul brother. Speaking today with group of 50-70 year old english speaking welshmen who have done well in world and who all thought more powers to "mickey mouse" assembly was joke.We all pay taxes even though many retired and want to see better value for money.The idea that more powers to such a flawed institution with current track record is not on. The NHS now seems to be run for the benefit of politicians in that the proper advice from NEUROSURGEONS/CIVIL SERVANTS is ignored without debate.Can you imagine if John Redwood who is a first class politician took such decisions. The welsh left wing would have gone mad and BBC Wales demanded a public inquiry.If we cant get rid of the assembly then let them prove over 10-15 years the success of it and without the obscene levels of public expenditure that its had over last 7 years.It is clear now that this public expenditure was based on borrowing with little or no idea of how to pay it back and hence current problems. Never mind well all be welsh speaking in 30 years with only S4C to watch and without english subsidies we'll have a standard of living about that of CUBA b ut without sunshine.
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HerbertDavies, my submission to the All Wales Convention is short, sent this evening .....
Wales must become Independent if a referendum for full law making powers is successful, this is the inevitable next step.
The reason is our constitution, Wales and England are conjoined, we have a single legal jurisdiction, further powers are the tipping point into Independence.
Wales, through the Assembly, has in recent years demonstrated how to create division within the Union, by design or by chance, a simple process of creating differences. The most obvious difference is the matter of free prescriptions for the sick, can it be ethical to share the taxation equally then have an unequal division of the spoils. England believes that Wales is reaping the rewards of the English taxpayers greater contribution.
The fact both English and Welsh health services have the same pro-rata funding is not discussed, the different priorities are not discussed, only the obvious discrepancy of free prescriptions in Wales. This is a single example of how devolution, in its current form, distorts the relationship the people of England and Wales have with our constitution.
Soon the referendum asking the Welsh electorate to approve further powers will be held, the referendum is fundamentally flawed, probably dishonest, because it fails to inform the electorate of the effect a "Yes" vote will ultimately have on our shared constitution. In its arrogance the WAG fails to consider such affects, it cares more for its continued existence than the people it governs.
To be an honest referendum it should only ask the questions do you want Independence or the UK, because a "Yes" vote is an eventual vote for independence.
..................
I have valid reasons not to request further powers, I prefer the Union, and would prefer the constituent parts to move forward together. Without an answer to the "English Question" separation is highly likely in the near future, and that is not to my taste.
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Message 47....
Get your facts right, evolution was NOT responsible for the demise of the dinosaurs. They went in the blink of a eye in galactic terms. They were not evolved out, to be gradually replaced by oncoming fauna.
Even if they had, would you really expect some joker to come along and do a Jurassic Park scenario, so we could be stuck with gigantic killing machines stalking the world, just because it's a nice idea they should be preserved. And even then, would you really expect the taxpaying public to foot the bill for the research involved, and the ongoing maintenance of the resurgent fauna?
Well that is how we feel about this language you lot are insisting we pay for. We don't wish for the language to be snuffed out like the dinosaurs, but neither do we wish to be forced into the position of having it foisted upon us, and to be further expected to pay for it.
A cataclysmic fate awaits for it, if that is the way you see, and intend, it to be.
Message 48....
The people who preceded the immigrant, so called Celts, had no language to be displaced then?
The language you are so fond of came from across the continent in some far off region of East or central Europe.
It was a 'displacing' language therefore, and as I said before, has no more claim for Wales than did Anglo Saxon or Norman, or Latin, or any other, including English.
You may well think that it has, but by evolutionary and factors of utility, it cannot hold it's own against the far more suppressive English.
Now I think it quite sad that the language may well be thrust aside, but even English is evolving, but it does so, in a forwards motion, adopting and adapting, in possibly no more than a few decades we may not even recognise the English of today.
It does not attempt to retreat to some 'glorious past' when the world was pretty well subservient to the English Crown.
Technology, commerce, internationalisation, education, communication, and entertainment, all are factors that have made English the premier language of the planet.
There are other languages that hold sway with certain block users, Spanish, French, German, and of course Mandarin, even Russian, but across the whole world of commerce, and communication, English has secured a pole position, which will be very hard to set aside, no matter what other one of those mentioned may thrust forwards, for the simple reason English is now taught, and spoken, as a first or second language, in virtually every other country in the world, from the sophisticated malls of Japan, right down to the meanest mud huts in primitive settlements..
But please tell me, what makes you believe this Cymraeg language, or a preceding version of it, has been in Britain for 5000 years.
The Celts, moved into Britain around 800 to 700bc, then they only came in straggling small numbers.
It must have taken quite few generations for them to become even half way dominant enough for their language to have suppressed the existing one or ones, and after that, as is common with all language mixing, the questionable purity of their language was very certain to have been diluted by absorbing quite a lot of the languages theirs suppressed,
Just a English has absorbed the worlds dictionary in modern times.
Having taken probably a few hundred years to gain any sort of prominence, they then, either by absorption or by being overwhelmed by much larger indigenous peoples, become less and less Celtic, so that by the time the British Isles were invaded, but no quite conquered, by the Romans, the Celts had all but disappeared. All that remained being the language, modified, and altered, to suit their, by that time, adopted country.
Today, apart form a few trinkets dug up occasionally, there is no trace of Celts in Wales. Even the language is NOT true Celtic, more a modernised version of what the disappeared Celts left behind.
Influenced by Latin, Anglo Saxon, Norse and whatever else has been taken on board.
So please, if you wish to argue, do so from a position of knowledge not guesswork.
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#50 Stonemason, I appreciated the humour in your post:
"Wales, through the Assembly, has in recent years demonstrated how to create division within the Union"
I guess those pesky Scots will be learning from us next. And then, before you know it the Irish will be up and demanding autonomy, too.
Equally your comical suggestion that the question on the referendum should be "do you want Independence or the UK[?]" as if the Welsh can vote into continuation an entity three quarters (or fifths, perhaps) of which (Ireland, Scotland, ?Wales) seem distinctly cool towards.
But you might be right.
Welshmen: "Shhhhh!" you're giving the restless neighbours dangerous ideas!!!
***
#51 Mapexx, your:
"by the time the British Isles were invaded, but no quite conquered, by the Romans, the Celts had all but disappeared"
could I ask you to clarify this? There are two major points:
i) isn't it generally acknowledged now (following decades of debate) that there were no "Celts" in Britain, but rather speakers of Celtic languages?
ii) isn't it the case that, whoever these peoples were (and they used to be called 'Celts' though the Romans never called them that, but rather 'Brittanii,' etc., keeping the term 'Celtii' for peoples in today's France, Spain, etc.]) they were certainly still there when the Romans came - and they were there when the Romans left (hence the fact that the 'British' language (i.e. todays' Welsh, Cornish and Breton) survived?
Surely the Romans never ethnically cleansed Britain, no matter how much administration they imposed upon it?
Might I please ask for your thoughts? You seem to get close to the common position when you say that "Even the language is NOT true Celtic", by which I suppose that you mean that the language is no longer the same as that found on first millennium BC inscriptions in Iberia.
You seem to be using a strange terminology since Welsh is surely a Celtic language (and very truly Celtic), but I can't quite understand the drift of your argument. Could you clarify for me, please?
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Bostoniwr your #52 .....
"I appreciated the humour in your post:"
Not so clever, taking sections of a comment out of context, unless of course you believe your words.
My message is simple, "I prefer the Union, and I see the gaining of full law making powers, without answering the "English Question", to be the beginning of the end for the Union and the start of Independence for the Nationalists." I do believe there should be less central government with greater local governance, and for this I would wait a century or two, to get it right, time is a plentiful commodity, unless you are intent on Separation.
Because our shared constitution will become unworkable, the recent Housing LCO demonstrates this, I have no doubt the Welsh Language LCO will do similar.
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Betsan,
Yet another plea for bloggers to stick to the the subject. Why does every blog turn into a rant about the Welsh Language. It has survived 2000 years having been battered by everything the English language, culture and political system can throw at it. Its a miracle considering English has led to the demise of 4,000 languages around the world but has failed to see off its next door neighbour.
I suspect Welsh is at little risk from the wild and sustained assault of the contributors on your blog, and if anything they are helping the language by exposing their blind prejudice. I wouldn'd mind if this wasn't such a waste of a potentially useful forum for political debate.
I have just put up a critique of the 'No' campaign's approach at Port Talbot and set out an alternative view of the decision the Welsh people are actually been asked to make. Come on 'No' people, leave the language rest and answer my argument.
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HerbertDavies , your #54
There is an answer at #50, many prefer the status quo of the Union and have no desire to share the aspirations of Plaid Cymru.
It could be that if Plaid Cymru had not been spawned, the question of devolution would be quite different.
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Re: 54, HerbertDavies
"I suspect Welsh is at little risk from the wild and sustained assault of the contributors on your blog, and if anything they are helping the language by exposing their blind prejudice."
QFE!!!!
re: 53. TheStonemason wrote
"Union bla bla bla Union"
Reviewing how the UK has responded to Welsh education, the events of Tan yn Llyn, broadcasting in Wales, Capel Celyn, among other issues, I am inclined to favor an independent Principality of Wales, a Welsh Prince of Wales, a Welsh government and parliament answering to the Welsh electorate.
I think everyone's positions are clear here and unambigious.
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I don't know where you obtain your historical information, but I have trawled through all that I own and have scanned the Internet sites for mine.
I also do as I have asked others to do, and that is to extrapolate and interpret across a wide range of historical opinion.
The information I have to hand at this moment tells me that Celtic tribes extended their grasp on the northern European areas on a gradual basis, by migration and conquest.
Ultimately, between the 8th and 7th centuries BC, they crossed the Channel into Britain.
At that time Britain was a very disparate country with many different tribes which, although fairly similar and subsequently entitled Beaker people, they were not closely integrated, in the main living and lodging where they settled.
They were apparently very peaceful, there seems to have been little in the way of inter tribal conflict as evidenced by the lack of defence fortifications.
This changed when the Celtic speakers,
( and I accept that by the time the Romans appeared on the scene they were no longer Celtics) as from the earliest evidence for defensive construction, it was after these folk arri8ved that general warfare became the norm.
The Beaker peoples more or less had only the wild life to worry about, until that is the Celts arrived.
As I said in my previous message, it would have taken many centuries for the Celts to enforce their hold over the whole of 'Celtic' Britain, and as they and their modified language spread so were their genes diluted by inter group, (can't really say racial) intercourse both in speech and sexual activity.
The Celts being conquering type of people, would have disturbed the indigenous populations, but as is the case with all such immigrant movements, intermixing would have taken place.
They came, they saw, they conquered, and were absorbed by time and distance from their original locations in Central Europe.
You mus really learn to get away from the idea that what is written in books is hard and fast.
If we all did that, there would be no crime solved, or much in the way of advancement in any human field of endeavour, one must apply, at all times a degree of lateral thinking, so that one can not only read about a subject, but can interpret from that reading what may well be the basis of what has been written.
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Do you remember that line in Breaveheart when Edward I Longshanks said "the trouble with Scotland is its full of Scots!"
That is the impression one gets when reading anything posted by Mapexx regarding the Welsh.
"The trouble with Wales, is its full of the Cymro!"
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-Drachenfyre- 58
You should be more precice;
Not "full" surely, a "minority" would be more correct !
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Drachenfyre, your #56
"I am inclined to favour ..... a Welsh Prince of Wales ....."
I notice Plaid becoming monarchist, bilingual is it?
at your #58
""the trouble with Scotland is its full of Scots!""
This you should have attributed to Hollywood.
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The myth that the True Wales no campaigners are peddling is that voting to give Wales primary legislative powers without going through the piecemeal approach of of LCPs is a vote for independence. This is both intelectually and factually wrong. The referendum on offer is on one matter only, should the National Assembly be given powers to legislate on the areas already devolved without recourse to Westminster or should the status quo continue. There are no other options. Independence will happen when and if the people of Wales vote for it in a referendum and not before. Anything else is dishonest. But that is what the No campaigners have fastened onto a campaign of FUD, Fear - Uncertainty - and Doubt.
Quite simply they are lying about what is on offer.
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Lyn_Thomas,
It is not just the "True Wales" that have indicated "No" to the acquisition of "primary legislative powers".
I have submitted evidence summarised as .....
Until the "English Question" is satisfactorily answered, anything other than what we have at present will begin a process of constitutional disintegration. A dismantling of the Union.
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Herbertdavies at 54
“Why does every blog turn into a rant about the Welsh Language”
Simply because the heavy handed implementation of the 1997 Welsh Language act, and the potential threat threat of the Language LCO, has woken a lot of people up – for many it has become the line in the sand - thus far and no further.
Earlier at 46 you comment on the Port Talbot meeting;
“The 'No' campaign were clearly present in numbers, and were organised and scripted”
They may have been present in numbers – unlikely to be organised because as far as I’m aware there is little organisation on the NO side – It is the YES lobby that is strongly organised thanks to Plaid.
You should at least recognise the possibility that those who are opposed to what is going on are in the majority.
You also comment ;
“These arguments are largely irrelevant to the fundamental question we are really being asked to answer.
The real point here is we are not debating whether these powers should exist. They already do. We are just talking about who should exercise them in those matters devolved to Wales.”
Well yes it is the intention of the All Wales Commision to constrain debate to the yes or no issue.
But it is becoming clear that a considerable number of the Welsh Electorate are not happy with the way Devolution is going, or the crass mishandling of our affairs and finances by WAG.
Many are strongly against the 2006 act giving the WAG the opportunity to apply for further powers on an ad hoc basis and want to revise the whole way we are Governed at present.
What the All Wales Commission and the actions of the current coalition Government has achieved is that the people of Wales are looking closely at what is going on.
At 15 above -Drachenfyre- wrote
“In my political science classes I remember studying that in democratic societies only about 10 percent are really interested enough in politics to be engaged in it year round. And that the rest only get involved during campaign seasons. This is one reason why polls can vary so much and explains voter apathy.”
In normal times he is probably right – but today - given the negative public view of the Assembly, what its achieving together with the resentment at Plaids attemps at social engineering – I would suggest we have 20 to 30% actively interested and a further 20 to 30% disillusioned and grumbling.
You ask
“The question to the 'No' campaign is why are they so frightened of 'being in charge' in their own country”
Again the answer is simple – Devolution has not resulted in us being in charge of our own country, nor will further devolved powers.
All that has happened is that a minority of Nationalist activists have taken over - they are in charge - enforcing legal, culture and social change on Wales that we do not want.
PR and the current Assembly set up means that Democracy in Wales is not working, just look at what is happening in Pembrokeshire, and we are not alone – Being in charge, that is a laugh , we are not even allowed to choose what we put on our village name board.
The Dragon has been disturbed and is rousing itself – it seems not to be happy with the Nationalists.
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Well said West-Wales.
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I became interested in the Origin of the Welsh Celtic history from the discussions here, and found this academic paper on Wikipedia - it is still being revised - others may find it of interest, and a source of ammunition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts
This extract (out of context) may explain the reason some are keen to reestablish the culture
"Roman Greek rhetorician and grammarian Athenaeus, repeating assertions made by Diodorus Siculus in the 1st century BC,
wrote that Celtic women were beautiful but that the men preferred to sleep together and "the young men will offer themselves to strangers and are insulted if the offer is refused"
Generally the Celts as portrayed have little to commend them.
I found the paper fascinating, am still studying it and following up links -
I shall certainly buy the two books;
The Blood of the Isles; by Bryan Sykes and The Origins of the British: a Genetic Detective Story by Stephen Oppenheimer - are based upon recent genetic studies, and show that the vast majority of Britons have ancestors from the Iberian Peninsula, as a result of a series of migrations that took place during the Mesolithic and, to a lesser extent, the Neolithic eras.
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re: 63 West Wales
Ill comment later
re: 65 West Wales
"Celtic women were beautiful but that the men preferred to sleep together and "the young men will offer themselves to strangers and are insulted if the offer is refused"
Generally the Celts as portrayed have little to commend them.
Are you saying that the homosexual practices of the Celts (men prefering men) is uncommendable? I would disagree. Don't knock it until you try it! You know what they say, go gay and you'll never stray!
Certinly the Greek Spartans encouraged homosexual lovers in their ranks, and Thebes instituted the Sacred Band of Thebes, in which gay relationships between fellow soldiers were encouraged.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Band_of_Thebes
I am familure with The Blood of the Isles; by Bryan Sykes and The Origins of the British: a Genetic Detective Story by Stephen Oppenheimer and also find it interesting.
I have no issues with the genetic make up of the inhabitants of the British Isles. They authors you site illustrate that the Atlantic seaboard between Northern Spain and the Celtic Sea was a super highway of sorts for not only goods, but also migrations.
The fact that the Basques share a strong genetic link with the people of Wales, Ireland, and Scotland (to a decreased degree in England) is unsuprising to myself.
I have nothing to say one way or the other, except that authors and historials John Davies and Gwyn A. Williams argue that a distinctive Welsh nation emerged in Britain following the Roman withdrawal in the 5th century. This Welsh nation included many Welsh kingdoms throughout Britainia, and they continued to call themselves the Brythoniad (Britons) well up until the 13th century, when the word "Cymry" took prominance.
The idea of Welshness is rooted in a common and shared expierence by the people of Wales since that periode, and not necessarily to pure genetic origions.
If you trace our genes back enough, we all come from the same regions in Africa after all. So genetics is interesting indeed, and I do enjoy reading it. But "Welshness" is rooted in a far different context then genetics or race.
Its about culture and a perspective. Read Jan Morris, I love her works. Her books "Wales: the First Place" and "The Matter of Wales (1984)" had a huge impact on me as a child (I read her books in the mid 90s, to date myself). She is Welsh and English, born in England and now residing in Gwynedd.
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West-Wales,
I have just read similar sources, our ancestors came to this corner of Europe as hunter-gatherers, between 15,000 and 7,500 years ago.
Another wave of immigration arrived during the Neolithic period, when farming developed about 6,500 years ago.
The English still derive most of their current gene pool from the same early migration, as do the Irish, Welsh and Scots. These figures are at odds with the modern perceptions of Celtic and Anglo-Saxon ethnicity based on more recent invasions.
Who is going to tell Lyn_Thomas and -Drachenfyre-, poor daverodway might have a coronary when he learns that family is English.
There is so much more, such as the dark-age invasions of England and north-eastern Britain as less like replacements than minority elite additions, based on the overall genetic perspective of the British, it seems that Celts, Belgians, Angles, Jutes, Saxons, Vikings and Normans were all immigrant minorities compared with the Basque pioneers. How are our Nationalist friends going to cope knowing that there is no difference between the peoples of Britain, except the differences of mentality amongst those that would govern us.
Advances in genetic tracing have provided the evidence.
Is daverodway related to Baroness Thatcher of Kesteven. Is Sir Francis Drake a distant ancestor of Drachenfyre and could Shelley be the family inspiration of Lyn_Thomas.
Excellent West-Wales, excellent hat tip.
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re: 67 Stonemason
"Who is going to tell Drachenfyre...."
What are you talking about? Your making it sound as though Welsh nationalists are raciest or cultural elitist. I don’t find this to be the case any more the UK nationalists or “Unionists”. English culture has a great deal to commend itself. As does Welsh culture. As Jan Morris wrote (and I am paraphrasing), the Welsh and the English are made up of the same ingredients, but like Christmas pudding and Christmas pie, in different amounts and made differently.
I refer to my comments in post 68, and would beg you not to call me a racist again, as I have not called you raciest.
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Message 68....
Unfortunely in aligning yourself with others, who DO call those who rail against the Taffia in Cardiff Bay, and often use tthe term 'racist' towards us, you then stand in the line of fire.
Should the odd missive strike you, then perhaps you should be more circumspect with who you form alliances.
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I am not a historian by any means but obviously have an interest in Pembrokeshire.
I am suspicious of much current Welsh literature purporting to explain the early history of Wales, much of it conflicts with full peer reviewed academic studies, and is based on unvalidated translation of obscure documents or at worst wishful dreaming.
However I thought the Wikipedia collection of studies appears to be a reliable source document, it is under constant peer review and properly updated and corrected - for me it will be useful.
-Drachenfyre- in 63 says;
"But "Welshness" is rooted in a far different context then genetics or race."
I would agree with that - the genetic map shows everyone in the UK is pretty closely related, so the feeling we have of Welshness has to be from a cultural base.
But, it is also the case that the early inhabitants of Wales were not a single united group - but a number of independent warring tribes, each with their own version of Welshness and cultural base.
We still seem to have that situation today - Tribal Warfare over whose vision of Welshness is to be supreme.
But one minority tribe, have managed to attain political power, and are now insisting that all those that don't fit, or are willing to change in order to attain its model of Welshness are to be swept away.
All other Welsh cultures are to be condemned as Anti-Welsh and eradicated.
It seems that the rest of the modern Welsh tribes have had enough and are getting restless.
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-Drachenfyre-
You have not been called racist, neither is it implied.
Welsh nationalists are cultural elitist by definition, a foundation stone of the Plaid Cymru Constitution is the concept of decentralist socialism .....
Ralph Borsodi is the author of the only published work entitled "A Decentralist Manifesto"..
Borsodi begins with .....
"Human beings must be humanized. "
continues .....
"For this reason, some such program of educational reform as is here presented is absolutely essential."
Ok to here ..... but it continues .....
"A New Leadership. The leadership which the priests lost to the warriors, the warriors to the kings, the kings to the business men, the business men to the financiers, and which the financiers are now losing to the politicians, must be assumed by a group which sharply distinguishes between the exercise of influence and the exercise of power. The minority of concerned and thoughtful teachers and .writers, of poets and preachers, of artists and scientists, of physicians and lawyers, who constitute the real leadership of any society, must be. reborn."
Elitist by any standard .....
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WestWales,
There appear to be major areas missing in your analysis.
1. The EU. I appreciate that you may not like the fact that the decision on road signs may be coming from Cardiff. But I guess the other alternative is that it would be coming from even further away in London OR Brussels.
The EU is not necessarily pro or anti Welsh or Pembrokeshire. But the laws it makes about transnational 'open borders / free markets' are only just being realised. The protesters in Milford Haven and Aberthaw are cottoning on to the fact that many elsewhere in the EU are willing to come to Wales to work for minimum wage in return for board and lodging.
So realistically the idea that Cardiff Bay can mandate that people in Wales should speak Welsh and English, rather than say, Italian and English or Spanish and English, to the detriment of English as a 'common language' doesn't seem to hold water.
Of course, the EU professes to be in favour of 'minority cultures', but at the same time it erodes them by trying to remove the concept of nationhood, and mingling the people's of different countries. Not that this is a bad thing, but one has to realise that any action they take will just balance out and result in 'holding the fort' rather than actually advance minority culture and lingo.
2/ The Internet.
I get very cross indeed when people refer to going to see a 'movie' or say that they have to 'step up to the plate' - a term nicked from baseball.
But I can grump as much as I like - TV and the internet are, sadly, importing these into the beloved English language. So I don't really see that trying to level the playing field for Welsh is going to, in some way, be to the detriment of English at all.
Of course, others may disagree...
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Stonemason you are a British Nationalist, does that make you a cultural elitist too?
This talk of a minority taking over the government of Wales, that somehow we have nationalist in control over everything in Wales is pure paranoia. Thanks to the more democratic electoral system that we have in the National Assembly no one party has a monopoly of power. There is a unionist majority in the national assembly. There is also a consensus amongst the parties there that the current devolution settlement is not working. The parties disagree on how to go forwards but broadly they are all in favour of the transfer of primary law making powers to the National Assembly. The fact that this consensus exists should logically dispel the idea that this is something driven by Plaid Cymru. The proposed referendum is about an end to the cumbersome, expensive and divisive an inefficient process of LCO.
If you need proof that the current process is not working just look at the Measure on School Transport, it missed key components because the National Assembly had only limited powers over transport. It could only legislate within a very narrow area and lacked the general legislative power to make a comprehensive law that would answer the demands of parents for safe school transport.
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My submission:
I have watched the debate unfold and have seen it hijacked by those who are opposed to devolution and wish to make this debate one on abandoning devolution and where they suggest that the real alternatives are going back to direct rule with the abolition of the National Assembly and Independence. I reject this. I strongly support the notion that this debate should be focused on the true alternatives, the status quo and primary legislative powers, as defined in the Government of Wales Act 2006.
Is the current system working? I would say not. The system is complex and few of the general public understand the complexity. It was intended to gradually add competence to the National Assembly to legislate over areas currently subject to administrative devolution. However, as the school transport measure has shown it is incapable of delivering a coherent set of powers to the National Assembly. While the school transport measure corrected many deficiencies in the law, it could not provide the comprehensive measure that campaigners and members of the National Assembly wished to secure. The narrow nature of LCOs restricts the scope of the National Assembly to provide for the needs of Wales. It creates a patchwork of competency, a lace doily of powers.
The LCO process adds to tension between Westminster and Cardiff Bay, it is natural in any system that people at their end of the M4 would want their institution to be the more powerful. AMs wish to work for the good of their constituent and thus want more power to the National Assembly to frame laws and administer Wales. MPs fearful of the diminution of their power and the growth of the National Assembly naturally resist the transfer of powers to the bay. As originally envisaged Parliament would transfer competency when requested and would only refuse in exceptional cases. Its clear that this is not working. While originally the intent was that there would only be debate on the principle of the National Assembly gaining powers we now see MPs debating possible future policies that might evolve in Wales in the Welsh Government and the shape of future laws that might be passed by the National Assembly for Wales. This is contrary to the letter and spirit of the Government of Wales Act of 2006, but entirely predictable. The Select Committee on Welsh Affairs (SCOWA) is jealously guarding the right of Welsh members of Parliament to represent and act for their constituents. To do this they need to hold power at Westminster. While they can effectively veto LCOs this remains a powerful weapon. However they have now taken matters beyond their envisaged remit. As shown by the recent "compromise" over the Housing LCO they can now have an effective veto over future policy decisions of the National Assembly. Transferring veto powers to the Secretary of State for Wales was never envisaged in the Government of Wales Act. It subverts the settlement and given the largely unwritten nature of the UK constitution it is a process that is bound to continue. The SCOWA will continue to extend the scope of its powers in this respect. In my view it will seek to modify LCOs to limit their scope and it will seek to impose conditions on the National Assembly as to future policy.
This is not devolution, this is a return to control from Westminster. I suggest that the only way forward is a clear cut devolution of primary legislative power to the National Assembly. The lace doily effect of limited and patchwork of powers would be avoided. No more delays of a year - 18 months for a LCO to get past Westminster, a Welsh Government can present a legislative program for the full term of a National Assembly, it will further joined up and comprehensible government. It will prevent protracted conflicts between Westminster and Cardiff Bay, which can only be exacerbated if and when the governments at either end of the M4 are of different political complications.
The current system was introduced to avoid splits in one party, because of that I believe it is unstable and can not provide a long term solution to the needs of Wales. We need responsible government in Wales, one where the Welsh electorate vote for policies that are decided in Wales and not then subject to renegotiation at Westminster.
In short I very much support the furtherance of devolution in Wales and for a completion of the process envisaged in the Government of Wales Act.
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Lyn_Thomas, your #73.
"Stonemason you are a British Nationalist, does that make you a cultural elitist too? "
I needed to think long and hard about this question, there is no point lying to yourself.
Taking it from the top .....
Constitutional Monarchy - yes
Parliamentary democracy - yes
Universal suffrage - yes
Equal opportunities - yes
its a long list, it goes on .....
..... but we get to the nitty gritty .....
The crux of the question is "would I treat my Plaid Cymru neighbour, or any other minority, less than I would my conservative majority neighbour?" Or any other minority - majority mix.
Would my politics affect my judgement if deciding a political question, "British Nationalist judgement wrote Lyn_Thomas". It is a difficult question, could I stand back and witness the abolition of the "Constitutional Monarchy", yes, as long as the process was democratic. It is a different response to the question of "Parliamentary democracy and Universal suffrage", I believe these are fundamental human rights, I would be at the barricades, with mapexx and unless I am mistaken yourself Lyn_Thomas.
And I think the barricade that stands between Plaid and the Unionist is the barricade of the "English Question". And here we stand in opposition, unless this question is answered the British constitution will be damaged to such an extent that the only option will be separatism, Wales and England will de-merge.
This is the single issue for me, language, housing, school transport are the symptoms of a poor system that failed at design time to consider the "English Question".
So I don't believe "Elitist", "Centrist" most definitely.
Elsewhere you called me "Troll", so any question of me having culture is outwith the scope of this response, without animosity.
Lyn_Thomas, your #74.
No consideration given to the "English Question", the barricades get raised.
What's the rush, except towards the cliff of Independence, the Centrist asks .....
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Well I am a democrat and believe that soverienty lies with the people. I also believe that my nation, Wales, is entitled to self determination, what ever the people of the nation want. My vision of the nation is an inclusive vision, no barriers on race, national origin, language, sexuality, gender etc. Somali descended residents of Butetown are as Welsh as I am.
I dislike centralism - I believe power should reside at the lowest practicable level. For me that means some things need to be decided at a world level, others at a European level and some at a National level (and for me that is Wales not the UK, I see the UK as increasingly irrelevant and as a tier of government over due for abolition).
Stonemason do you also want the abolition of the Scottish Parliament and the Northern Ireland Assembly, also the London Assembly? If not why not?
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Lyn at 74
You say;
" I have watched the debate unfold and have seen it hijacked by those who are opposed to devolution and wish to make this debate one on abandoning devolution"
I would remind you that in a democracy every one of us has a right to our own opinion.
To disagree that the choice being offered is unacceptable, is not "Hijacking" - it is our democratic right to dissent.
My vote is as good as yours, and so are the individual votes of the people of Wales - we have as much right to be heard as you and your associates.
However one thing is obvious from the tenor of much of the pro independence lobby - the view of the majority of the people of Wales must not be allowed to get in the way of your plans.
You, and those who you support, are making sure the Referendum question is phrased so that irrespective of whether the answer is yes or no, the project to enslave the Welsh people by the language and nationalist fanatics is to go ahead.
It is becoming very clear, the people of Wales must as a minimum be allowed at the very least to vote on the 2006 Welsh act. But a rerun the 1997 referendum on Devolution is certainly important to many.
Enough damage has been done, I travel widely around Wales from what I see and hear the majority of Welsh people want an end to it - as I said earlier the Dragon has been roused - the question is will it go back to sleep or not.
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Stonemason keeps going on about this mythical "British constitution". When I pressed him on the matter on his blog he finally coughed up...the Magna Carta.
What can I say?
The Magna Carta was drafted in 1215, when Wales was an Independent nation (we didn't lose our Independence till 1282). It is a purely English (or Anglo-Norman) document. In Wales the foundation of Welsh law was the Law of Hywel Dda.
So Stonemason chooses to base the "British" constitution on a document that relates purely to England, at a time when England was attempting to assert it's dominance - by force - over the rest of the Island.
He's an English Imperialist, pure and simple, trying to dress his Imperialism up under some spurious notion of a "shared project". These are the people we're up against...
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Draig32, that's a porky.....
you wrote in my blog .....
"Well, I'll ask the question again - what is the constitution of the UK - state it! What would our children say?"
I replied .....
The UK has no single constitutional document.
it exists in the written as.....
statutes,
court judgements,
Treaties,
parliamentary constitutional conventions,
the royal prerogatives.
This is our constitution, yours and mine, this is what we and our children would say in answer to your question.
But I guess you are being argumentative so ....
If you base the foundation of the British constitution as the Magna Carta, though other earlier documents exist, this would equate to the US constitution.
The US constitution then has a preamble, 7 original articles, the Bill of Rights and further items attached, the amendments, 16 I believe, court rulings and treaties, probably other sources.
This is what a child living in New York would say in answer to your question.
Neither constitution would be memorised, or read from a single document, this is because a constitution changes over timer, just as the world changes over time.
...............
I am guessing there might be a problem with your .................... who knows.
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Sorry Lyn_Thomas, I missed your #76.
Unless the "English Question" is answered devolution should be in stasis.
Unless the objective is to sunder the Union into its constituent parts.
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Message 78.....
I am now going to make a suggestion to you that I am sure you will take to with gusto.
Concentrate all your efforts on getting Westminster, Plaid Cymru, and anyone else you can muster, to set aside a portion of north west Wales, where it is claimed the Cymraeg feeling is strongest, and the language prevalent.
Having got such an area designated, spend as much time as it takes to persuade all those who agree with you, to move to that area, and set up your own little kingdom. using the law of Hywel Dda as a basis for your freedoms in your realm.
I can guarantee you, I will, at the same time, try to persuade all those who seem to be on my side of this silly and futile debate, to support your demands.
Maybe, we will then be able to trade with your lot, on a European basis, as we do at present with other minuscule economic units across the length and breadth of Europe, indeed the globe.
You can install your own currency, Euro's or Taffycents if you wish, and add, or take away, anything that the Anglo Welsh like but which the Cymro disapprove of. We will not be bothered, as long as it is all contained in your new little domain.
Considering that Wales is a region of two parts, one of which contains a few hundred thousand of claimed Cymraeg speakers, (not all of whom I suspect would support what you are forever demanding), and the rest, who although they have not made any sort of public statement regarding their feelings in the matter, nevertheless show a remarkable outpouring of complete indifference, and that, because they simply wish to live as they do, without all this pressure being brought in by those who think they have powers.... down in the Bay.
Before any further powers are tolerated, I suggest it be made mandatory that a full and frank public debate take place on the matter, and that it also be made mandatory that, come any further election or referendum, all who are eligible, be compelled to cast their vote.
That way, we not have the divisive and unsatisfactory result we had last time, when the matter arose.
By the way, when settling in to your new spot on earth, be our cuest and take the Bay crowd with you.
Better they are out of our hair, than remaining where they are, to create yet more stuff and nonsense.
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Stonemason accuses me of telling porkies, and then undermines his own accusation. I asked him to name the "British" constitution, and he was forced to fall back onto the Magna Carta.
Here's the relevant bit from his blog, which he himself quotes here;
"But I guess you are being argumentative so ....
If you base the foundation of the British constitution as the Magna Carta, though other earlier documents exist, this would equate to the US constitution."
You said it mate!
Stonemason considers the Magna Carta to be the "foundation" of the British constitution - and then tries to compare it to the US constitution. There is absolutely no comparison. The US is a FEDERATION of states, and their constitution is a voluntary union. And their constitution is fully codified.
Wales did not voluntarily join the Union. It was incorporated into a another country - England. It would be like Massachussetts annexing Maryland. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't recall that happening...
There is absolutely no comparison.
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Actually the Magna Carter did have some Welsh elements, which were later removed. Llywellyn the Great got clauses put in which recognised various Welsh grievances and corrected errors.
As a basis of my constitutional foundations I'd rather take the Letter sent to the Archbishop of Canterbury by the Council of Wales asserting that the Prince could not hand over the kingdom of Wales to the English king as it wasn't his to do so, as it belonged to the community of Wales not to its prince. This is somewhat like the Declaration of Arboarth makes it clear that princes are not the sovereign power, but the people are. Thus in the UK you have two distinct constitutional traditions - that which Scotland has were the people not the parliament are sovereign and England where the Queen in Parliament is sovereign and the people subject to it. Wales I'd argue follows the Scottish Model. So Stonemason there is no single constitutional tradition and no unified UK constitution. So I ask you again you want the English question (what ever that is) answered. Well I want you to explicitly say if you want the Scottish Parliament and the Northern Ireland Assembly abolished along with the Welsh Assembly.
And West Wales, the question is not on whether the assembly should be abolished or whether there should be independence, the commission has no powers to rule on that. The Government of Wales Act has permission for only one question to be asked - should we continue with the LCO process of transferring power in dribs and drabs or should the power be transferred now in one go? If you want another referendum fine, but there isn't much support for that at the moment. Those wanting to abolish the assembly are vanishing rapidly.
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Message 83....
Tell me please, how did you get that data, and where has it been made public, that those wishing to end the Assembly are vanishing rapidly?
In case you did not notice the terms under which the AWC was set up, it was to gauge the feelings of the Welsh towards more powers being given, with a referendum in the offing. I have seen nothing that says there will be no referendum.
And by the way, I can asure you there is quite a lot who are waiting to partcipate in such an election. I think you are letting your personal perceptions run away with your sense of judgement.
Unless you know something we don't know.
Because if you do, then we will be very strident in demanding we are told.
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Lyn_Thomas, your 83 .....
my #80 is unequivocal .....
Unless the "English Question" is answered devolution should be in stasis.
Unless the objective is to sunder the Union into its constituent parts.
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Draig32, when you ask a question you should read the reply correctly .....
I answered you in my blog and here .....
The UK has no single constitutional document.
it exists in the written as.....
statutes,
court judgements,
Treaties,
parliamentary constitutional conventions,
the royal prerogatives.
The base document of the constitution is probably the Magna Carta, though other earlier documents exist.
Let me remind you of another sentence of my reply .....
"This is our constitution, yours and mine, this is what we and our children would say in answer to your question."
If you are unable to understand simple English .........
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@West-Wales I agree the NHS needs to be Nation Wide to ensure everyone gets the best possible treatment. For example the only place in the UK where you can receive a Kidney & Pancreas transplant is presently Oxford. Where would that leave people in Cardiff and other places in Wales?
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