Christmas wish-lists
So playing the iPod shuffle wasn't deemed to be enough.
Within twenty-four hours of making donations to their chosen charities, Nick Bourne and Alun Cairns had to up the contrition ante and pay back the hundreds of pounds claimed for their iPods to the public purse.
If Nick Bourne believes that will be enough to save his skin in anything like the long-term -and beyond Christmas has felt like long-term this week - then he must, by now, be alone. The briefing that his time is up hasn't been silenced, nor the jostling in the race to succeed him.
Karl Williams, Wales' political betting guru to those who don't know him, has come up with odds on who takes over when Mr Bourne goes:
11/10 Fav - Jonathan Morgan
7/2 - David Melding
9/2 - Angela Burns
11/2 - Paul Davies
13/2 - Andrew Davies
10/1 - Darren Millar
12/1 - Alun Cairns
16/1 - William Graham
25/1 - Mark Isherwood
25/1 - Nick Ramsay
25/1 - Brynle Williams
If Mrs Isherwood and Mrs Williams have been wondering where to put their money in the current economic climate, they might be tempted to take a punt on their husbands. Then again they'd probably be better off sticking to a 'punt' too if I were them - or to translate from the Welsh, a pound.
Or they might spend it on the Christmas edition of the Big Issue where Assembly Members have been asked to outline their Christmas wish amongst other things.
Nick Bourne's?
"My Christmas wish is for a peaceful and secure Christmas and 2009 for all. January 1st is my birthday so New Year's resolutions are not usually on my mind."
Not usually.
Incidentally: remember that other Christmas wish I mentioned? The Plaid official and the Welsh Language LCO?
An informal chat with one Welsh Labour MP in Westminster this week is worth noting:
When will the LCO finally reach the end of its journey then d'you think?
This I can promise you: you'll be asking me exactly the same question at the Christmas do next year!
His message? Now is not the time to put any more pressure on Welsh businesses. Prepare to redraft.
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~31~RS~)
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New Tory Toff Supremo ...2009...
Rod Richards...over 100% (Robyn Druid Bet Shop, Bangor)
Racing cert to be back in 2009 ...Ron Badger..
"Cos he can talk to all the animals"
Best political commentor... Betsan O'P
"her politiko humour is drier thatn my finest champo cider!" ~ Prof. Dia Morgan - c/o Brian's Orchard's, Pontcanna Uni...
A VERY MERRY XMAS TO ALLOUR AMs ...ARGOS IS OPEN 24/7!
4WRDWALES.
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Re the Welsh Language LCO
"An informal chat with one Welsh Labour MP in Westminster this week is worth noting:
When will the LCO finally reach the end of its journey then d'you think?
This I can promise you: you'll be asking me exactly the same question at the Christmas do next year!"
Proof positive that the Labour Party couldn't give a toss about the Welsh Language, or Wales for that matter.
I can't understand IWJ's mentality in bolstering this failed party which treats this country and its people with utter contempt. They're laughing at you, Ieuan. Plaid needs to take a stand, now.
Rhodri Morgan has said that his party is viewed as anti-Welsh. It is anti-Welsh, Rhodri, its not just a perception.
Plaid's achievements as the monkey on the organ-grinder's shoulder are pathetic. They have nothing to show for 18 months of being Labour's crutch. For example, Ieuan, a north-south hi-speed rail link which takes 4 hours 26 minutes is a joke. Labour hasn't invested a penny on rail infrastructure in Wales. Billions have been and are being invested on the east and west coast lines in England.
Being in government is a two-edged sword. If you're achieving nothing, just time-serving, you're wasting your time and destroying your party's credibility. Nick Bourne isn't the only one who should be resigning.
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I think at these odds a few quid on Darren Millar would be a good investment. As for the Labour MP he's (or possibly she's) probably just one of those muddled backbenchers who is a complete irrelevance in Westminster.
There must be a reason why only one Welsh Labour MP is in the cabinet and that is that there not particularly highly thought of.
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Brynt... I think when Rhodri was talking about being anti Welsh he was on about more than just the language! There are other aspects of being Welsh you know , or else what nationality are over 80% of us who dont speak it?
I dont think Labour are anti Welsh language.... they've just got more important things to worry about than one single LCO right now!!! and rightly so when that LCO doesnt even concern 80% of us who's livelyhoods are currently going down the pan.
However, I would never expect a politically motivated Welsh language pusher such as yourself to ever consider the financial pain of the majority of us right now... you'll use it as an opportunity to further your cause in a divisive way.
p.s. as for Plaid taking a stand right now! Well if they did over this it would expose them as the single issue pressure group that they really are. Throwing the toys out of the pram and jumping out of a coalition government over a language LCO when the country is facing economic turmoil will only highlight their amateur status! It will do nothing but show that their language issues will always take prescedence and prevent them from being balanced enough to deal with all policy areas concerning the people of Wales.
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#4 Cardiffian2008 wrote:
"I dont think Labour are anti Welsh language.... they've just got more important things to worry about than one single LCO right now!!!"
Treating our language with contempt using the economy as an excuse is pathetic.
This was my response to you before:
"Irish is given recognition by the Constitution of Ireland as the national and first official language of the Republic of Ireland (with English being a second official language). It is an official language of the European Union. Irish is also an officially recognised minority language in Northern Ireland. Irish is an obligatory subject in schools.
As for British attitudes to its native minority languages : "Between 1921 and 1972, Northern Ireland had a measure of devolved government. During those years the political party holding power in the Stormont Parliament, the Ulster Unionist Party, was hostile to the language. In broadcasting, there was an exclusion on the reporting of minority cultural issues, and Irish was excluded from radio and television for almost the first fifty years of the Northern Ireland state." (See Wikipedia)
Since the 1998 Good Friday Agreement, attitudes have changed. In 2001, the UK Government ratified in respect of the Irish language of the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages. (True also of Welsh).
Place names on road signs in Ireland are in both languages, Irish above. In the Gaeltacht, the regions where Irish is the predominant language, road signs are in Gaelic only.
As for the Irish economy, In 2007 its per capita GDP was way ahead of the UK's, being 7th as opposed to 15th in the world. Treating one's own language with respect clearly does the economy no harm."
Only this week McBroon and Darling have admitted that instead of being well-placed to face the recession, the UK is worst placed than other western nations. As Chancellor McBroon failed to adequately regulate the financial sector and the banks and consequently the pound has fallen through the floor against the Euro and the Dollar. Labour are to blame for the mess the economy is in. Its Welsh MPs are delighted to use it as an excuse the bash the language
My criticism of Plaid is for having entered the coalition in the first place, which was before the current crisis surfaced.
Gaelic is a minority language in the Irish Republic, yet they give it a prominent place. Their language has been strengthened by the actions of their government (a democratic government elected by the Irish population, treating their native language with respect.) Under British rule their language had declined, just as Welsh has in Wales.
The Irish Government's policies have been balanced. Their economy is stronger by far than the UK. You're as anti-Welsh as the Labour Party, it seems.
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I am afraid brynt41 your arguments are fundamentally flawed.
The Welsh language is approaching death, going to become extinct, the lingua franca of Wales will remain English, it is because the majority have a preferential attachment to English.
This is the reason that no matter how much money is spent teaching children Welsh, they leave school and speak English, the children prefer it because their culture is saturated with English.
And this preference doesn't stop at Offa's Dyke, the Swiss Army use English as its lingua franca, in the USA, the minority migrants from the UK took English across the Atlantic, adopted by the remaining ethnic groups from Europe, and recently the second wave migrants from Central America.
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Just read the list of those in the running for the position of Welsh Conservative 'supremo'.
Couldn't see John Redwood's name anywhere.
Surely an early festive oversight Betsan ?
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Welsh approaching death, about to become extinct? No where I've just spent my week's holiday, North Wales, where it's the majority language...
Wishful thinking Stonemason. I know you're a great defender of the Welsh Not and its attendant mindset, but sory - it's not that simple.
As for the Swiss army, so what if they use English as the lingua franca, it don;t mean they don't or can;t speak their own languages (in the Swiss case, German and Italian, and most Swiss speak both, plus English). It is possible to speak and use more than one language you know!
English is the dominant language, yes. So what? Why should that stop people who have a different native language as their 1st language having the right to use and live through than language?
And why should we be against it?
Who's the bigot now? The one who wants bilingualism or the one who wants the monoculture imposed on every square inch of Wales?
A Welsh language LCO shoudl be do-able: in majroty Welsh-speaking areas all businesses, private and public, above a certain size, ought to employ enough Welsh-speakers to serve their customers. That would be economically good in jobless and deprived areas as it would create jobs for locals (and stop companies parachuting people in who can;t talk to their customers). In less or non-Welsh speaking areas these rules should not apply, or be proportinately applied.
No one size fits all system would work in a diverse country, so a Welsh LCO should be regionalised.
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daverodway,
I have no preference either way, it's the preferential attachment, not my preference, or your preference, or the minority Welsh language speaking populations preference.
It's about the mass of people who prefer the English language "soap opera", the celebrity culture. The Welsh language LCO is not going counter the weight of cultural indifference, the imposition of culture through the law is fraught with danger, the danger of a cultural backlash.
The use of "bigot" when an opinion differs, the use "ant-Welsh" when culture indicates otherwise, such terms don't help in the defence of the Welsh language.
Your "so a Welsh LCO should be regional" this is the first time I've read of this option, but how do you apply law by region in Wales.
Why would you accuse me of "you're a great defender of the Welsh Not", something used briefly 150 years ago at the instigation of Welsh parents, it is akin to accusing me of supporting ethnic oppression, unworthy.
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Good afternoon Dave.
There is a distinct air of desperation about your message no. 8.
You have been using the same old nationalist/language cliches for so long now, that they no longer have any substance.
I am just about as anti nationalist as it gets. But even I have no desire to stop those in Wales from jabbering away in their own little language. But Dai/Dave/Dafydd, surely you and your little band realize that common sense must prevail here.
As near as damn it, everyone in Wales speaks English, all day and every day, it is their first language.
So you can hardly expect the vast majority to look kindly upon a strident and vocal minority, who on a daily basis use the ridiculous (and doomed) assembly to further their own parochial aims.
I was taught Welsh in every school I attended. From Heol Trelai, to Windsor Clive, to Canton High. Even at a very young age I soon realized that it really was a waste of everybodies time. My language was English,yet I was forced to learn all the words to songs like Calon Lan, but unfortunately I had absolutely no idea what the hell I was singing about. It might just as well have been a chant from the bob-bank at Ninian Park. I was also forced to learn (and face exams in) the Welsh language....sound vaugely familiar does it "not"..
By the time I was around 13 I could practically speak Welsh, but then came freedom, and I had a choice to take other languages than Welsh at 'O' level....I chose French.
Thankfully I have now all but forgotten Welsh, and no you can't pull the old "you should be ashamed" nonsense on me. Learning Welsh was a complete waste of time, by not continuing I have lost NOTHING, but in learning French instead, gained much.
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Strange. I wasn't given much choice in whether I wanted to learn English or not.
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Post 10:
Well Noa (as you insist on using the English version of everyone/everywhere's name!), I'm just glad your English lessons were so successful :
"I soon realized that it really was a waste of everybodies time."
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Well spotted FiDafydd.
I do like to drop at least one error into every posting.(wink)
It does tend to keep the pedantic element amused.
Just to keep in with what could become a new Christmas pastime, I notice that even YOU are not averse to dropping the odd clanger on here.
May I refer the honourable member to his replies made to Mapexx on the 'Whitehall Christmas' topic?
(Message 61)..."Allow me then not ignore what you say in your latest post"
(Message 63)...There were a couple of ommissions which made it a little difficult to understand exactly what you were saying.
So you see FiDafydd, the trouble with being a pedant is that none of us are perfect, and we all make mistakes.
So Noa is the Welsh version of Noah is it ?
I wonder if that was dreamt up by the same committee that came up with 'compiwtor' for computer.....'digidol' for digital.....'ffotograff' for photograph, and our personal favourite, the hilarious 'pornograffi' which is apparently Welsh for pornography.
Brilliant!!!!!
By the way, did you spot the double 'm' in omission?
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This on-going debate by the same few who know little fact is boring. Never were so many bored by so few.
"As near as damn it, everyone in Wales speaks English, all day and every day, it is their first language." - BRILLIANT! How I laughed.
And then came Noah_sembly with his witty list of Latin, Greek, Italian, Hebrew and French words which the Welsh language has adopted. Can't stop laughing at such wit! GENIUS! And it seems the English language has also adopted exactly the same words - absolutely hilarious! I can't think of any words to respond appropriately!
May I add a few? How about the English language adopting "pizza" or "lasagne" or "car"? These have my mates and I laughing all the way to the "geiriadur"!
TheStonemason's use of "lingua franca" when considering English language dominance was irony from the top drawer! But Mandarin does seem to dominate, closely followed by an increasing Spanish and English. Did Latin used to be the "lingua franca"?
Oh, and I also enjoyed the
Did I say boring? Sorry - genuine mistake. You are all comedy masters, except for Brynt41 who seems to feel the need to repeat earlier posts just because they are so good.
Nadolig Llawen! Or is that Happy Christmas (Happy - coming from the Welsh for luck - "hap" and Christmas - Christ being Latin translation of Hebrew Messiah). Oh! How we laughed!
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DanDydin
When you write .....
"TheStonemason's use of "lingua franca" when considering English language dominance was irony from the top drawer!"
You obviously failed to understand the expression ..... "the preferential attachment".
The vast majority of Welsh people prefer to use English, even after total immersion in Welsh Medium schools. It has nothing to do with culture and everything to do with capitalist economics, consumer choice, and Hollywood.
This preference extends to the other historic aspirations of Plaid Cymru and their founding father, the anti-Semitic Saunders Lewis. The electorate prefer "soap" to "sebon", opera naturally.
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If the National Assembly's single focus was on a Welsh language law then some of the points above would be relevant. However it is just one. As a body you would expect it to consider several policy areas at once. As for the LCO it is part of the agreement for government, so if Labour can't or are unwilling to deliver it shows bad faith on their part and calls into question whether they are genuine partners in government or just taking the other partner for a ride. Reducing the National Assembly to a single function, ie the economy, when it has very limited powers there is not an option.
As a non Welsh speaker I recognise the historic wrongs that have been done to the language and it speakers and that Welsh language speakers should have the right to speak to those in "authority" in Welsh and get answered in Welsh. Given that in the last 20 years much of that "authority" has been handed over to large corporations rather than the government it is right that they should have the right to communicate with those bodies through the medium of Welsh. Most of those bodies (but not all) operate Welsh Language policies (and yes that includes British Gas, with bilingual billing, communication flags set to Welsh on customer's profiles, a Welsh Language phone line with a dedicated team of Welsh speakers to answer the calls.....
Making Welsh an official language is symbolic, it just means that it has full recognition as a national language of Wales. I would expect English to be given the same status.
It will not mean that every business in Wales has to provide services in Welsh regardless of size, that would be impracticable - I haven't seen a single voice call for that.
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#11 Noah_sembly wrote:
"I wonder if that was dreamt up by the same committee that came up with 'compiwtor' for computer.....'digidol' for digital.....'ffotograff' for photograph, and our personal favourite, the hilarious 'pornograffi' which is apparently Welsh for pornography."
Noah, you so often show your ignorance.
'Digital', 'photograph' and 'pornography' are not derived from English either.
Digital:
"Etymology Latin, digitalis-
1: of or relating to the fingers or toes
2: done with a finger.... (there are other meanings)
Pornography:
"Etymology: Greek pornographos, adjective, writing about prostitutes, from porne prostitute + graphein to write"
Photography:
Etymology: Greek phot = light, graphein, as above.
Welsh is 'borrowing' from the classical languages, in exactly the same way as English has done. The difference is that English has been very successful at doing it and fooling people like you into thinking that these are actually English words in the first place.
If you want to criticise Welsh then you have to criticise English too.
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#14 DanDydin wrote:
"This on-going debate by the same few who know little fact is boring. Never were so many bored by so few."
Dan, I don't know under whose rear end you presently reside, (as your nick implies) but you might emerge more often with some pointed rather than sarcastic comments, so as to give us an idea of your slant on the actual topic under discussion, and share the benefit of your obviously superior understanding of current affairs with us mere mortals.
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Lyn_Thomas, you seem to have a poor memory, your .....
"It will not mean that every business in Wales has to provide services in Welsh regardless of size, that would be impracticable - I haven't seen a single voice call for that."
Let me refresh your memory ......
The Welsh Language Society calls for .....
"The rights of everybody in Wales to use the Welsh language in every part of their lives, across each sector."
They are not my words, a letter to the Western Mail from The Welsh Language Society as I previously reported.
Your "Making Welsh an official language is symbolic", not true, symbolism doesn't require laws.
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Of course huge numbers of 'English' words derive from older languages. Only a complete dipstick would deny that. It also takes a special kind of idiocy to scurry to the dictionary in order to look up some of these words, and then pathetically point them out on here. Step forward brynt41.
The point I was trying to make brynt41, was that those words gradually 'evolved' into the English language over many years.
The Welsh 'nonsense' examples that I mentioned.....words such as "compiwtor"and "digidol" have been specially 'constructed to look and sound 'a bit Welsh'.
Even more hilarious is the FACT that these words were picked by a committee of imbeciles who actually sat down and made this nonsense up. What's more they were paid handsomely to do so.
Well I for one think the taxpayers were robbed. I also think the committee were guilty of bringing the Welsh language into even more disrepute.
"ffotograff"....."pornograffi" indeed.
(Why is there never a laughter emoticon just when you need one)
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Brynt41 - is that coegni, gair du, or gwawdlyd?
Noah_sembly - Love it - even when you look silly you are still full of humour and not afraid of poking fun at yourself. And that clever name! Great! Makes DanDydin seem plausible!
Photograph indeed! How we laughed!
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Noah-more ! , Noah-More ! How this young wit with his Wildean ripostes and Churchillian oratory leaves my very sides splitting . His is truly the voice of a forward-looking, Welsh Wales.
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I'm sure it's a pleasure for us all that both Dandydin and Hogygog are carrying on the troll's art during this the festive season.
They both sound so similar, you might almost think they were the same person.
Surely not!
Dandydin, I hope we are going to be honoured with many more efforts from you. There have been so many "3 post wonders" it would be a pity if you left us so soon.
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Noah - truly antedeiluvian and antidevolution
in his views !
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#20 Noah_sembly wrote:
"words such as "compiwtor"and "digidol" have been specially 'constructed to look and sound 'a bit Welsh'."
Actually, Noah, the Welsh for computer is 'cyfrifiadur' not 'compiwtor'.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#26
With the BBC you have EITHER to be Welsh or be English, no happy medium. Of course, it is the BRITISH Broadcasting Corporation, its paymasters are in Westminster.
Dear Moderator, I put my Welsh sentence in inverted commas, in response to a question including three Welsh words, which you posted! Is it possible to have a Welsh-speaking moderator on here, we pay for you salaries after all!
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The original 'computers' were not machines, but people who were paid to calculate and create mathematical tables for actuaries and navigational purposes. The early Victorian attempts at mechanical computing aids were called 'difference engines ' (see Babbage's efforts in the science museum ) The 'log books' which were used in schools until the early 80's would have been originally created by these poor souls. A lot of Welsh words were originally created around 150 years ago- I think a lady from Llangrannog whose nickname was 'Cranogwen' ran a nautical school for a while, and published material to aid her students. The Welsh-speaking Victorians were very adept at creating new words, being like their English counterparts, very confident. Their hard work fell into disuse until the advent of Welsh-medium schools. The Victorian words tended to be a bit too poetic, and the words favoured by the editors of the 60's scientific magazine ' Y
gwyddonydd'looked to both match and improve by looking to the original Latin/Greek roots or by being more descriptive ( e.g. Pedrochr (Lit : Four sides)
for 'quadrilateral' )
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#26 & #27
This is appalling! Wales is a bilingual country. Why is the BBC putting us into a straightjacket?
Let's have an answer from someone who is overpaid, sitting behind a large desk at the BBC, in London. You have my telephone nmber, so let's hear from you!
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If £250 is enough to save Bournes career, what is his career actually worth? Hehe.
It's a shame. but you get the impression that Plaid went into the coalition with the best intentions. However it is by now clear that Labour merely entered the coalition to maintain their grip on power. I think the time has come for some Plaid bigwigs to ask the question 'What has Labour gained from the coalition?' and then ask themselves 'What have we gained?' Answers to the second question might include death to a welsh language newspaper, promises of a (meaningless anyway) Welsh language LCO, etc.
As usual I fully disagree with all of Noah's comments (at least I think so, haven't read all of them yet).
As to brynt's comments on the BBC, Betsan used Welsh and didnt get moderated, or is that censored?
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#30 osian wrote:
"As to brynt's comments on the BBC, Betsan used Welsh and didnt get moderated, or is that censored?"
My #26 wasn't censored, it may well appear.... eventually... but too late to be of any use.
I'm indignant because the BBC fails to appreciate the status of the language situation in Wales. It has two political blogs, this one, in English, and another, in Welsh. It is ghettoising the Welsh language. Its own guidelines and rules on this matter are unsatisfactory. There is no reason whatsoever why comments in Welsh and English can't appear on both blogs. All it takes is to employ bilingual moderators. The Welsh blog's moderator could just as well moderate this one. If readers can't understand a Welsh response, there are translation facilities available for free on the web.
It is typical of the BBC that it has to be dragged kicking and screaming into facing the reality of the UK, that there are places outside of London, and that there are other nations who pay its licence fee. The BBC Trust, its governing body, found that Wales in 2008 was the 'invisible nation' as far as its coverage was concerned. To date, precious little has been done to address the issue.
It has to be addressed and soon.
Comments critical of the BBC also get removed from these blogs, even if they appear in the first instance.
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#30 osian wrote:
"It's a shame. but you get the impression that Plaid went into the coalition with the best intentions. However it is by now clear that Labour merely entered the coalition to maintain their grip on power. I think the time has come for some Plaid bigwigs to ask the question 'What has Labour gained from the coalition?' and then ask themselves 'What have we gained?'"
I don't think we can expect a reassessment by the Plaid leadership anytime soon. Its very difficult for politicians to admit they made a mistake, made a strategic error, Blair on Iraq, and McBroon on the 10p tax are good examples.
I think it was fuddled thinking on IWJ's part from the outset. Both Rainbow and Labour coalition options had serious risks for Plaid.
IWJ believed he saw the beginnings of a deep rift between Cardiff Bay Labour and Westminster Labour, which he could exploit. However, the only real benefit for Plaid of the Labour option, was the promise (very carefully worded in the All-Wales Agreement) of Labour support for a Yes vote in a referendum. That support would have to be overwhelming if success was to be achieved in the vote, yet it was abundantly clear that Welsh Labour MPs would never come on board, and would scupper any unity in the party, and wreck any referendum vote.
Ieuan's logic was flawed. His claim of joining Labour to provide 'stable' government was fatuous. Its quite conceivable that Labour could have formed a stable minority administration, as the SNP (with a smaller minority) did in Scotland. DE-T has made that very point.
Plaid's leaders, rather than face up to the mistake, will continue with their heads in the sand. I don't think IWJ has the guts to pull the plug. It won't even be openly discussed. If it does happen, it will come from the lower ranks in the Assembly, but that could spell electoral disaster for Plaid.
Even worse, Plaid's supporters will be disillusioned by the failure to gain anything worthwhile from their first stint in government after 80 years of the party's existence. Imho the entire idea will prove to be damaging in the medium to long term. I don't think that Wigley would have made the same mistake.
Regrettably, sooner or later, somebody in Plaid has to say, 'The Emperor has no clothes'.
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Good morning brynt41.
In reply to message 25.....As you insist you know everything about Welsh, thought you might be interested in this......http://www.geiriadur.net/atebion.php?prefLang=en
Merry Christmas.
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#33 Noah
Happy Christmas, Noah, and to all contributors and readers!
I take it you're referring to 'compiwtor'... one I've never actually heard, although Welsh is my first language. 'Cyfrifiadur' is the one I always come across.
In any case, look up compute(r)'s etymology.. it isn't English: Latin 'computare' "reckon together".
What's sauce for the goose...
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The emperor has no clothes.
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#35 Hogygog wrote:
"The emperor has no clothes."
There ya go!
"Nadolig Llawen, Hogygog"
(For the monoglot moderator(s) that means "Merry Christmas", so you don't have to spend 48 hours moderating my comment, written in my own language in my own country, as is happening with my #26, also Season's Greetings to all at the BBC backroom boys and girls)
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Brynt, your own language is spoken by a tiny minority of the poulation... of which even less are actually literate in it! This is a fact you seem incapable of grasping... However, I'm sure the BBC moderators are dealing with your minority language posts as quickly as they can.
p.s. Nadolig Llawen :)
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
message 29....
Wales is a bilingual country???
For Wales to be bilingual, it would have to have the vast majority using BOTH English and Cymraeg.
It doesn't.
It has a very small minority who will insist on using this antique language, causing all sorts of financial problems for local authority budgets, annoyance to the non Cymraeg literate majority, the waste of paper , printing inks, time of the interpreters who see their efforts disappear into the trash can as soon as the envelope is opened, and in the matter of education, a wasted part of the school day, making futile attempts to get the modern English speaking kids to learn a language they have no time, or use for.
A bilingual country,???... it's not even a country, to be strictly accurate, never mind bilingual.
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I dunno Noah - you always just go that little bit too far. "Cyfrifiadur" is the most commonly used Welsh word for "Computer".
Is L'acadamie Francaise a "lunatic, language crazed committee" ?
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I'm glad he paid the money back. Its a shame he only did this though after a Bourne Ultimatum.
Do you think anyone will get him an ipod for Christmas?
I would if he was in my family and then feign surprise if he said anything "Oh, you haven't got one already have you..."
Gareth, Cardiff
(Future AM hopefully)
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lol Cardiffian....doesn't look as though you are veryliterate in English yourself.Maybe its a good thing that you stick to one language and try to improve at that.
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brynt41 said.......
"If readers can't understand a Welsh response, there are translation facilities available for free on the web."
The Monoglot Majority say....
So you would prefer to see the majority of Monoglot posters on this blog go to all the trouble of translating your Welsh language postings.
Of course, this onerous task would not involve the bi-lingual, thereby putting the majority to a distinct disadvantage.
Believe me, the only reason this blog exists is because it is conducted in the English language.
Go on brynt41, continue to make your postings in Welsh on the other blog and see what response you get because you won't get much here.
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If you present an irrefutable argument to brynt41 he does get a tad petulant, sulks a little, could it be his use of Welsh in this blog is a "Custer's" last stand in the face of an overwhelming refusal of the majority; a refusal to be browbeaten into submission by a very aggressive welsh speaking minority.
I keep telling you brynt41, there is a preferential attachment to English by a loyal majority.
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hahahhah dai7900..... you come on here like the school swot because i missed the second 'p' in population (sticky keyboard) and then in the very same post include that well known word 'veryliterate' !! WM education for you :)
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41. At 4:40pm on 22 Dec 2008, Dewi_H wrote:
I dunno Noah - you always just go that little bit too far. "Cyfrifiadur" is the most commonly used Welsh word for "Computer".
***********************************
Reply by Noah Sembly.
Obviously not far enough for you Dewi_H !
If you have any more queries on the matter of whether COMPIWTOR is Welsh for COMPUTER, could both you and Brynt41 please contact.........
Dept. of Welsh.....University of Wales....Lampeter. (Or Google the ' English Welsh' section of their dictionary).
I mention the above because they supplied the word in the first place, and gave it as "first choice" with Cyfrifiadur coming second.
Could an apology be forthcoming? From you two I very much doubt it.
I have never disputed that "CYFRIFIADUR" may be Welsh for computer. But I rather think that COMPIWTOR has more of a ring to it.
(Not as good as "PORNOGRAFFI" though)!!!!!
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Well Betsan, you've got them going on this one.
For the record - I'm bored with all the constant jabber about the language (for and against). So could I please put in a word for the silent majority here??
Yes, the language should be protected (not least from some of the bile that's spouted during discussions like this one); and yes also, the views of non Welsh speakers matter too (it belongs to all the people of Wales).
Now give it a rest.
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#38 and #46 Cardiffian2008 wrote:
"Brynt, your own language is spoken by a tiny minority of the poulation... of which even less are actually literate in it!"
I think dai7900 was on the button, Cardiffian.. it should be 'fewer' not 'less'. A few literacy lessons would not go amiss. Had you taken some Welsh lessons, then your English grammar might also have improved.
Since when is 20% a 'tiny' minority'?
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Brynt ... i very much doubt I'm of your generation and therefore, for the purposes of commenting on an internet blog the two are interchangeable as far as I'm concerned!
However, if you want to get technical about it I would argue that you cant use 'fewer' because Welsh speakers are not an entity that can actually be counted... at least not before the WLB get involved and adjust the figure :)
oh and by the way... the fluency figure recently quoted by the WLB is actually nearer 12%.
and as for:
"Had you taken some Welsh lessons, then your English grammar might also have improved"
err nope... even after a few reads you've still lost me there!
Anyway... I agree with Aberalbert on this! It's becoming boring! Long live the language...just not the nuts who try to use it divisively for political gain!
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brynt41 said....
"Since when is 20% a 'tiny' minority'?"
Since 80% was a large majority.
Just happy to help.
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An internet writer wrote yesterday .....
"I think the Tories have gone the right way about it in Wales. A language doesn't "belong" to anyone and the further it's pushed away from the zealots the better."
I think he is probably right .....
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Worse and worse Cardiffian.It should be "fewer"
not "less" when referring to people.Now, be a good boy and get yourself an English grammar book for Xmas.
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Regarding #52 and others
As far as I can see, the only language zealots here are the anti-Welsh coalition, who cry at every needed promotion of the Welsh language.
The words used by the anti-Welsh language is akin to the hateful anti-Spanish language zealots here in the US, who try and make English the only language in the US, dispite centuries of multi-linguistic tradition.
The Welsh language needs a new Welsh language act which protects Welsh language users in the workplace ... in terms of the right to use it and to speak to clients in it. Or else you get issues like you did when that travel agency in N. Wales banned the use of Welsh in their workplace in Gwynedd (2006?)... even though the majority of Gwynedd residents speak Welsh as a first language. Or you get the situation where hotel keepers ban the use of Welsh in the hotel by workers or to the guests, even though again Welsh is the majority language in Gwynedd and on Mon (1999-2001).
The truth is, those that hate the Welsh language who post on this thread will continue to spout hateful things about the language, dispite a rise in the use of the language. They are afriad that their English speaking Wales is somehow in danger, yet it is not.
The only thing that comes to mind for me is that old saying
"With [Countrymen] Like that, Who needs enemies?"
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message 54....
We have to live in Wales, whereas you apparently do not.
Therefore when we get annoyed with all the waste involved in dual language issue of official and semi official documentation, it is a valid complaint.
You quote the USA as an example of 'multi language tolerance, fair enough if the whole of the USA was being flooded with dual language documentation, which of course it is not.
If every household in even one state was issued with English, Spanish, Urdu, Sanskrit, Dutch, French, German, or any one of a multiplicity of languages, then I can see your argument holding water.
As it is, this is exactly what is happening here in Wales, and 80%, at least, have no capability in reading the Cymraeg language documents, so therefore such issue is superfluous to requirements.
But even if they can read, write, and speak Cymraeg, they can also do the same in English.
As seen by a large number of people, the pressures to engage all in this old language, by official dictat, is a retrograde step in the evolution of the political panoply of Wales.
Hating the language does NOT come into it, what does is the vast waste of funding being utilised in promoting it, especially in the eastern regions where there is almost no take up, or fluency, despite the pressures through road signage, dual documentation, and now into the educational establishments.
There may be no hatred as such at the moment, but what is occurring, often in the face of resistance, will eventually take a sinister route, and belligerence could easily become the result of the pressures being employed to force the language agenda into everyone's life, whether they want it or not.
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message 54....
PS....
When under the terms of democracy, 'friends' are those who comprise the majority, a piddling few who are proponents of the Cymraeg language are outnumbered, at least 8 to 1, so it is a bit of a nonsense to refer to that majority as 'enemies'.
Our enemies are those who refuse to be called 'friends', as they are blinded by their attachment to their nationalistic agenda and imperative to turn the whole region into Cymraeg speakers, as they take Wales from the featherbedded relative safety of connection to England (The UK), into a no mans land of a scary future independence.
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Re:
"If every household in even one state was issued with English, Spanish, Urdu, Sanskrit, Dutch, French, German, or any one of a multiplicity of languages, then I can see your argument holding water."
But thats just it mapexx, there are many many counties and cities in the US where Spainish is the dominate language, and many locals where education is taught in the schools through the medium in Spanish. In California they do use both English and Spanish in their publications. In many parts of Arazonia, Texas, New Mexico! Florida!
With many of these local communities with fewer resources then Wales has!
My goodness its the same principle! Spanish is protected in these locations, if not on the Federal level then on the state level. A US state has more authority to protect domestic minority languages then does the people in Wales have the ability to protect their own native tounge.
Its monsterous at the anti-Welsh demonstrated by some here in the corse of this thread.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
re: message 56
Your so stuck on that number, 20 verses 80.
You are the one focused on division, not tollerance. That 20 percent speaks for Gwynedd, Ceredigion, Mon, Carmarthen! Should those counties go their own way then?
Have Two Wales? Maybe it should. I don't know.
But what I do know is that the decline in the Welsh language over the corse of the past 100 years has been direct hospitility by the government, then by the BBC, first to include Welsh as a comprehensive language to be tought in schools early on, then for the BBC to reject broadcasting any significant programmes in Welsh.
Its time for a reversal of those policies. Dont worry Mapexx and Co. , your English language entertainment and quality of life will not be in any way in affected, no more then in any Amercian state where locally they have many Spanish speakers yet have content available in both English and Spanish.
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*hospitility should read "inhospitable". My apologies for confusion.
The decline in the Welsh language in the past 100 years has been the direct inhospitable attention by the government and by the BBC to teach people in Welsh or to broadcast in Welsh.
This according to historian John Davies.
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I am afraid -Drachenfyre- , the issue of the Welsh language is not benign, there are very real issues, that under other circumstances might be termed bullying.
The Welsh Language Society (WLS) summarised their expectations, previously posted at "Whitehall Christmas", as .....
"The rights of everybody in Wales to use the Welsh language in every part of their lives, across each sector."
The same post ended with .....
"We want to see sensible and ambitious legislation that will achieve the vision of a truly bilingual Wales."
Putting both together,
Every Welsh speaker will be able to demand a response in the Welsh language, in every part of his or her life; Because this demand is all pervasive, our minority will achieve its aim of a bilingual Wales, despite there being a preferential attachment to the English language.
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@Stonemason
In Wales, ever Welsh speaker should be able to receive goods and services, both commercially and governmentally, in either language.
This is what is available in many US states and local counties/cities. No one should be discriminated against based on language, and it behooves businesses to have represenitives available in both languages. Spanish or English, or what ever else the domestic language is.
So should it be in Wales. If an English speaker travels to Gwynedd, they should be serviced in English, if a Welsh speaker travels to an English speaking region, he should be able to speak in Welsh and receive services as well.
This is a Multi-generational issue, not something that will happen over night. Just like the loss of Welsh was multi-generational.
But as the UK government and BBC was in the past tacitly involved in the systematic distruction of the language, so should new measures be in place to make sure that the language recovers through out Wales, at least to the 50% mark.
Don't be afraid Stonemason!!! Im serious, you are not in any danger of not getting serviced in English, or to not be able to receive television programming in English, or anything of the kind.
English is not going anywhere anytime soon, and you will always be able to receive quality programmes through out the corse of your lifetime. Trust me, English is the fourth largest language in the whole wide world. There will be programming somewhere in it for you, and even domestic Welsh programming in English too I hope.
But protect and defend the native language, it needs this protection in the commercial as well as governmental sphear.
Welsh is part of my own ancestrial heritage, and I dispair at the situation in Wales today about my ancestrial language.
Don't let it die.
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Message 57...The whole point, missed entirely by you in your 57, is that Wales, a region of the UK, where English is THE language commonly utilised by all it's inhabitants (recent non English speaking immigrants excepted), is being subjected to language promotion pressures, and at public expense.On a personal basis I have no problem with people wishing to opt to use Cymraeg, all the time if they so wish, other than English, but I do object to it being force fed into our educational establishments over more vitally important languages such as French, German, Russian, even Chinese and Japanese.All being paid for by the total taxpaying base of the UK, not just the 7 or 8% in Wales who just happen to afford to pay tax into the pot.I am well aware there are Spanish speaking folk in the USA who, maybe, do get some documentation in Spanish, but not, I emphasise NOT, at general public expense.I seriously doubt that the Federal government would tolerate public funds being utilised in any state, the way funds are being utilised here in Wales.I would hazard a guess, and state that, in one or two of the states you mention, there are far more Spanish speakers than there are Cymraeg speakers, in total, in Wales.In fact, common demographical information would tell you that border states in any country, or region, suffer or benefit from incoming language specific numbers. That is true here in Wales, where English is now the major means of communication.If Texas, southern California , et al, are Spanish dominant, it is because, like Wales, those places have been subjected to immigrant pressures.However, the 'immigrant' Spanish speaking Mexicans who have crossed the border, have been first of all met with a very low Anglo population, much as is the case with Wales, where the so called indigenous Cymro, were low in total numbers.
The English being an expansive race, for want of a better term, followed Parkinson's law, 'clutter tends to expand to fill the space available'.
Just like the Mexicans, effectively.
This is why Wales is now 80+% English speaking, and for the present Assembly/WAG to try turning the clock back to some dream scape scenario, that never, ever, existed, using the language of their choice as a 'weapon', demanding that the general taxpayer fund it all, is, to say the least...Intolerable.
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#63 I am well aware there are Spanish speaking folk in the USA who, maybe, do get some documentation in Spanish, but not, I emphasise NOT, at general public expense.I seriously doubt that the Federal government would tolerate public funds being utilised in any state, the way funds are being utilised here in Wales.
You need to visit Cali my friend. State and Fed dollars go towards Spanish language services.
Spanish speaking people can speak to Spanish speaking customer service agents at the DMV, or at School, and receive state information in Spanish. Even Federal information in Spanish.
Spanish is a minority language in the US, but the primary language of many within alot of our communities. The situation is the same.
The fact that you do not wish your tax dollars to go to promoting the native language of the country you live in demonstrates your intollerance and, in my opinion, out right hostility towards the language.
If family or friends expressed the same kind expressions as you do towards Spainish speakers here, I would so completly not associate with them, because of the inheret prejudice that underlies those opinions. I know, because I am from the American South, I know to discern prejudice and how it is expressed in syntax and turn of phrases and languages like I have seen written here.
Those kinds of prejudices are rampet here.
Welsh in Wales is just as important, more important , then learning other languages. Full stop. English is very important and will continue to dominate in Wales for many generations to come, but Welsh needs to be tought and encouraged at the highest levels, and encoruaged in business and in education and government.
The fact that you can not grasp this is amazing and striking. With obstructionist opinions like this, no wonder so many Welsh speakers practice disengagement from the mainstream... a mainstream that is really only a generation or two old anyway.
One wonders and ponders what may have happened had the BBC continued programming in Welsh in the 30's, when Welsh was the primary language even in S. Wales valles, instead of bowing to pressure from people in England who complained about getting Welsh programming on the BBC broadcasting from Cardiff (Davies, a History of Wales).
From an outside observer, clearly Wales is split in two, and I wonder why not go ahead and split up?
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Mapexx.... you are clearly very accomplished at commenting on this topic. Wales needs people like you to provide the counter balance to this ever forward and historically innacurate resurgence of Welsh. It is only through the counter arguments of both sides that we will end up with the happy medium. The alternative is a 'jobs for the boys' undemocratic arangement of government and QUANGOs run by the cymraeg speaking elite. That is the situation I wish to avoid.... but of course, what with not living here, that is a situation drachenfyre cannot envisage and doesnt sit easily with his/her California/new mexico example.
Out of interest Drachenfyre, if you are as you claim in Cali, then why have you been posting throughout the period of 1:53 and 5:46 in the morning? Seems a little unusual :)
To the individual Welsh speaker who wants to exercise his/her rights and obtain services through the medium they are most comfortable I say: good luck to you and you have my wholehearted support!
To a person such as yourself drachenfyre who doesnt seem interested in the quality of peoples lives but only interested in ensuring that over half the population of Wales speaks welsh through "whatever enfrcement system is required" (or whatever it was you said) I would say: back in your box mine Fuhrer. We're all sorry about what happened to the language through natural evolution but two wrongs dont make a right so you can kindly take your suggestion of an oppresive enforced regime relating to the resurgence of the Welsh language and stick it where the sun dont shine :) Let people be! We'll learn if we want to and the services are already there to help us do so.
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Good afternoon Drachenfyre.
My, you are a one for long postings aren't you. Though may I suggest that whether you come from California, Cader Idris, or Canton, you do something about your spelling and general grammar.
Now I'll be the first to admit that sometimes we all make mistakes, but after reading just a line or two of your efforts I find myself going off into English teacher mode and looking out for errors. This rather detracts from what you are trying to get across. Though as it is the same old stuff you have been pushing for some time on here, I feel I have missed nothing of any importance.
The mere fact that you are now using the USA as some kind of role model for the forcing of the still waning Welsh language upon the majority of us, speaks volumes.
Whatever next Drachenfyre me old matey, maybe we ought to bring back the death penalty, or base our 'defence' policies on their "invade first" model?
Never mind Drachenfyre, maybe Santa will bring you a nice dictionary for Christmas.
Nadolig Llawen.
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It's pointless arguing with people so ignorant. And arguing on the Welsh language blog of the BBC is at a bare minimum, some of the obviously Welsh speaking contributors do not contribute to the Welsh language blog. You cannot ask for more services and prattle on if you don't make an effort yourself. An Englishman told me once the problem with the Welsh language was that the Welsh didn't speak it.
A rhetorical question(s) for those against Welsh (a minority language, culture, etc). Do you feel that Tibet is unfairly treated? Do you feel that the Palestinians are being unfairly treated by Israel? Do you feel that gay/lesbian minorities are unfairly treated? Do you feel that the jews were unfairly treated by Hitler? Do you feel that the Native Americans were unfairly treated by successive European powers and the US? Do you feel that Abyssinia was unfairly treated by the League of Nations? Do you feel that the entire nationalities that Stalin exiled/imprisoned/massacared were unfairly treated? Do you feel that the tens of thousands of women burned at the stake were actually witches? Do you feel that native South Affricans were unfailry treated under the apartheid system?
Do you by now get my point?
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"We're all very sorry about what happened to the language through natural evolution"
"Natural evolution"????? Are you having a laugh? Can you think of a country that voluntarily gave up their language through "natural evolution"? An imposed English language education system might just have had something to do with it do you think?
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Great interest in an iPod – whatever!
No story on WEFO withdrawing all Convergence funding this week except what it gave itself – even for contracts awarded.
How come?
Too close to home? Might have to question the party leader and de facto head of BBC Wales - Rhordi? Too close to the parties invites to risk investigating?
Truth, impartiality, and honesty – BBC where have you gone?
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Dewi_H no I'm not having a laugh! You dont learn your first language in school!! You should already be speaking it!
An english language education system has nothing whatsoever to do with it. Language and the skill of communication is learnt in the home and the community...education is purely academic.
Hence, as I said, there has been some evolutionary process at work! With that there can be little argument.
I agree that Countries dont give up their language 'voluntarily' as such... it is more of a subconcious thing. However it is most certainly an evolutionary process.
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Message 67,From Osian.
Would you like to sit down and maybe have a glass of water, Osian.
Bless 'im.
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Dewi_H, your .....
"Can you think of a country that voluntarily gave up their language through "natural evolution""
Wales did, it did so because of the wealth of knowledge available in the English print. If you visit the The National Library of Wales, on line if you wish, the "Reports of the Commissioners of Inquiry into the State of Education in Wales" is available, also known as The Treachery of the Blue Books or Treason of the Blue Books.
The public inquiry that created the report (Blue Books) was carried out as a result of pressure from William Williams, Radical MP for Coventry, who was himself a Welshman by birth and was concerned about the state of education in Wales. He was right, as were many others who saw an urgent need for education.
If you go to Montgomery page 62, where a farmer has submitted a letter, he urges other farmers to educate their sons in the use of English, so they .....
quote "might read all the knowledge they might need". end quote.
Amongst the perceived insults, aimed at our morality etc, in the Blue Books there was the reason behind the majority of Welsh people speaking English today, it was their need for education. At the time of writing there were only 400 books approximately catalogued amongst the schools, only 50 were not related to the Bible or poetry. The vast majority of information that people needed to know about was written in English.
It was sink or swim, and our ancestors swam with the English language for survival, after that the ball kept rolling, that was the evolution I think.
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Not much consensus to be seen here. A long time ago , there existed an unfashionable nationalist language movement called Adfer . Adfer was probably more capitalist than the Welsh Language Society,which lost its way in the 80's with causes like apartheid, gay rights , tory-bashing etc, which had nothing to do with preserving the Welsh language (the chairmen of the time seem to have done well out of the present Labour administration, mind) . Adfer argued that Welsh-speaking Wales was distinct from Non-Welsh speaking Wales , and argued that a community was inseperable from its roots and language. The inspiration was the philosopher J.R. Jones, and the movement was led by charismatic Emyr Llewelyn . An argument with the late R. Tudur Jones damaged the movement a lot, and it became confined to North-West Wales. There was not a lot of love lost between it and the WLS leadership at times , though some people had membership of both.
Belgium's bilingual status, much quoted by some nationalists , has proved to be a myth and divisory . A community has only one natural language. I would be prepared to agree that East Wales should have predominantly English paperwork, so long as it is recognized that West and North-West Wales are areas where Welsh should dominate and be the sole language of local government and the public sector.
Cardiff seems to have an increasing number of Welsh-speakers, and is the capital, so bilingualism should be the norm here .
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“Out of interest Drachenfyre, if you are as you claim in Cali, then why have you been posting throughout the period of 1:53 and 5:46 in the morning? Seems a little unusual :)”
Thank you for your interest, I consider myself a native of Knoxville,Tennessee, the result of a significant colony of Welsh speakers from South Wales (via the Welsh Barony, Pa.) I have immediate family in New York, Cali, Arizona, Florida, North Carolina. Currently I live in Norfolk, Virginia. I work 3rd shift at my employment, and occasion the BBC Wales website. Sorry for spelling and minor grammer mistakes. Was hald distracted at work.
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Hogygog, your .....
"I would be prepared to agree that East Wales should have predominantly English paperwork, so long as it is recognized that West and North-West Wales are areas where Welsh should dominate and be the sole language of local government and the public sector."
There are four Local Authorities where Welsh is the majority language (latest data April 2001), each having more than 54 percent Welsh speaking up to the maximum of 69 percent, they are Isle of Anglesey, Gwynedd, Ceredigion and Carmarthenshire.
The remaining 18 Local Authorities vary between Conwy having 65 percent English speakers to Blaenau Gwent having 91 percent English speakers.
So I am sure someone would take issue with your proposition, does East Wales include Pembrokeshire having 75 percent English speakers. Would you wish Conwy to be included in the North-West.
Cardiff has 13 percent Welsh speakers, so bilingualism is unlikely to be the norm there just yet.
Our government institutions provide a bilingual service, commerce should take care of the rest, if a call for Welsh language is perceived a business will soon enough provide the service.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
All you anti-Welsh Language contributors might benefit from reading about the policy on the Catalan language, in Spain:
http://www20.gencat.cat/portal/site/Llengcat?newLang=en_GB
Go to Language Policy at Catalonia and
Legislation and Linguistic rights
(This blog won't allow me to link the pages directly)
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@75 - "Our government institutions provide a bilingual service, commerce should take care of the rest, if a call for Welsh language is perceived a business will soon enough provide the service."
Amen.
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This is a bit like a game of 'AM Family Fortunes' with Les Dennis...
"What is in Santa's sack for the Assembly ?"
Over to the Plaid Family...
[bethan jenkins] "Complete Independence for Wales"
*dit-duh* [cross appears]
[dafydd iwan] "Legislative powers in the Scottish model"
*dit-duh* [second cross appears]
[les dennis] "Right Tories and Lib Dems, get ready to steal !"
[leanne] "Well we must at least be getting the Welsh Language LCO - it is Christmas!"
dit-duh - 3rd cross and it's over to the captain of the oppos, Kirsty Williams..
"Well I would answer that the answer on the board is 'Absolutely Nothing' because we have not been nice all year, so Santa's sack is empty !"
[les] "Bang on Kirsty, you win and go through to the 'head-to-head' with Nasty Nick Bourne..."
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What is even better is knowing that the LCO is not going to be delivered until there's an upturn in the economy..
But Labour know that the worse the economy tanks, perversely the better Labour do in the Opinion Polls - so I can't see much incentive for Gordon Brown to rush to introduce a Welsh Language LCO anytime this side of, er, 2011...
'Trebles all round...!"
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#73 Hogygog
- Here in South West Wales - Pembrokeshire, South of the Lansker, we would be very upset to be included as part of a Welsh speaking West Wales.
We would also be very upset if anyone suggested that because we don't speak (and don't want to speak), Welsh, we are not Welsh.
The activists who are trying to force a language used by a minority, onto a majority, by insults, childish arguments, and ill conceived legislation, are not helping their cause.
The recent requirement for our town and community councils to provide a bilingual service is not going down well.
Local rates have to be increased to pay for it - in an area where there are less than 5% Welsh speakers, its not seen as money well spent and the Assembly is getting the blame while the Welsh Language is taking the knock.
Anyway Happy Christmas and have a great 2009
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brynt41,
Nothing new.
..............
Extract from Act No 1, Article 11.
The linguistic ability of the staff in the service of the of Catalonia
1. The staff in the service of the authorities, corporations or public institutions of Catalonia shall have a sufficient and appropriate command of the two official languages, both in verbal and written communication, so that they can adequately carry out the duties assigned to their post.
2. In order for what is laid down in para 1 to be valid, the Government of the Generalitat shall guarantee the teaching of Catalan to the staff in the service of the Generalitat, local authorities, public universities and the judicial authorities of Catalonia and promote measures to recycle such staff.
3. In recruiting staff to cover posts in the Generalitat, local authorities and university administration and services, including staff on contract, Catalan proficiency, both oral and written, shall be at a level appropriate for the duties of the position to be filled in the terms established by legislation for public service.
.............
If you replace Wales/Welsh for Catalonia/Catalan, could it become predictive? The Welsh Language Society are demanding similar.
Interesting, the web site has three languages ..... including English.
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regarding #82
The two points you miss
1. That Catalonia is constitutionally able to legislate and enforce its own laws regarding its own language.
2. The Catalonian parliament, democratically elected to represent the people of Catalonia, excercise their constitutional right to legislate with regard to the Catalan.
Currently, Wales has no such constitutional arrangement and no domestic stratigy for a language policy is in place.
Empower Wales to find its own policies on Language, Law Enforcement, Criminal and Civil law.
Right now the process is very Imperialistic.
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#83 Drachenfyre
"Right now the process is very Imperialistic."
Perhaps democratic would be a better word.
Having said that - a Referendum held now on the Assemblies future would certainly call for its dissolution.
Do you really think there is mass support across Wales for your call to - "Empower Wales to find its own policies on Language, Law Enforcement, Criminal and Civil law".
Its time the majority had a say - lets see what the Welsh peoples democratic support is for your Nationalistic dreams.
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Sorry to be late on this one some "technical" problem with computer. With regard to the betting list as a "working class" Conservative but never been a member except when playing table tennis for Fairwater Cons I dont know whether to laugh or cry. What a "motley crew" and if their the best that the Conservatives can get to stand at the Assembly then the future is bleak for a proper opposition the Nationalist/Socialist ruling class. Two of them have been at the "trough" with the best of them at to think their party believes in "low taxation" etc. Both Bourne and Cairns should have resigned immediately for using public money for such "personal" items,let alone the second home for Cairns in Cardiff. Well said Noah about welsh language being shoved down our throats (which were paying for) to satisfy the fanatics. Isuppose Rhodri must know the Labour Party but why does he lump people who hate the agenda of Welsh Nats as "anti welsh". I admit being in that category,however to be welsh hater I would have to disown my parents/children/close friends etc. Its no wonder the former PM (Charles Anthony Lynton Blair) didnt give him any job in 1997 and fought valiantly to stop him gaining advancement in Cardiff. We know the agenda of BBC Wales and who will come out of the woodwork of any party to speak up for the majority of good welsh who are not welsh speakers. That is not to say that welsh speakers are not good people but the agenda behind the "language" is insiduous and is destroying any cohesion there was between the people of Wales. God save the Queen.
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The latest propaganda exercise emanating from the Welsh Language Board quango - 'Mae gen ti ddewis Welsh language services is proof, if it were needed, that the Welsh public neither need or want their services provided in Welsh. If the Board has to resort to co-ercing us to use the services (as recently advertised on their website) thus:
'When you next phone, visit or write to an organisation look out for the language choice and where available choose Welsh.
Let your friends and family know that they also have a choice. Join in the discussion and invite your friends to join our Facebook group. Make your feelings about the quality and availability of Welsh medium services clear to the providers and let us know what you think. Remember, you have a choice'..
Do we have a choice? or are we being co-erced? Time to abolish this Board, and save the £13m per annum it costs to run it
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All this stuff so strange: My dad grew up as a monoglot English speaker in the Ebbw vallley in the thirties. At that time his cousins in Treharris were monoglot Welsh. By the time his cousins were 14 they were monoglot English. How did that happen?
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Good morning Dewi_H.
Even if all that baloney was true. . . . .WHO CARES.
Happy new year !
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I care.
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It is true Noah actually. It's like you have a special pair of Noah glasses when you look at language issues.
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Well spotted Dewi !
They happen to be very expensive glasses which enable me to see through all the smoke and mirrors pathetically used by some on this forum.
You for instance Dewi . . . .have quite a habit of posting about the failing Welsh language on here.Clearly this looms large in your rather sad preoccupation with this extremely boring subject.
My view of the Welsh language is simple. Not one penny should be spent on it's promotion. It should live or die on it's merits. The disgraceful Plaid Cymru plaything known as the Welsh language board should be scrapped immediately. The £14 million a year wasted on it should be spent on the NHS or similar.
By the way, Dewi, have you heard about the large cuts proposed for the spendthrift Welsh language board. . .dark glasses all round eh !
Just the start Dewi, just the start !
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These glasses of yours, were they made in the 18th or 19th century ?. They seem to make your tunnel vision worse, mind you !
I have some sympathy with your views on the WLB, mind . They have a frighteningly large budget, and are invariably headed by a group who have climbed up the language career ladder (In contrast to true patriots, whose lives have suffered because of their acts and words)
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My preoccupation???? Motes, eyes and assorted black kettles come to mind....it's you who are on interaction terms with Lampeter's Welsh Dept...
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Legendary A, (86)
I think you'll find that coercion is when you have someone saying 'use the Welsh or the service you get will be rubbish'.
"Look there's a Welsh service available - tell you're friends" sounds like education to me.
It would be nice to know before going to a company if they have a Welsh service and whether its worth using. It's often not easy to find the right number / web page etc for the Welsh service, and when you do, its often not worth using. Like trying to buy a railway ticket to 'Caerffili' on Arriva's site. "Sorry, do you mean Carlisle?"...
And Noah, at last I agree with you on something. I too think that the Welsh language should be allowed to live or die on its own merits. I'm all for a level playing field where I and my fellow Welsh speakers can have a choice of which language we wish to use, without sweeping political generalisations being made about us based on that choice; without accusations of using a made up language; without being called troublemakers and time wasters; without being pressurised by those who believe that even hearing our language, or seeing it written on a road sign, is an imposition that somehow impinges on their human rights.
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Just1nD, in South East Wales, councils have signed up to Welsh language policies that are quite ridiculous in this English-speaking area, such as, promising to give all new building developments Welsh names and to give preference to Welsh speakers when employing staff. It is therefore understandable that the indiginous population feels threatened when they see their own language being subjugated on signs everywhere and their job prospects being endangered. It is beginning to feel like a country under occupation, policed by the Welsh Language Board, with the added indignity of paying through one's taxes for the privilege of being under their control.
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I presume you mean that preference is given to people who are both English and Welsh speaking. Welsh in Wales ! . Bizarre
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Just1nD, your complaint relating to the Arriva Trains on-line service is unfounded, except I suspect, the system use of the English spelling of "Caerphilly"
Your .....
"It would be nice to know before going to a company if they have a Welsh service and whether its worth using."
Well, I used the search engine as you indicated, starting with a search for Caerffili, they gave 12 options, the first being Caerphilly the English spelling.
The Arriva on-line service is excellent.
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Hogygog
'I presume you mean that preference is given to people who are both English and Welsh speaking. Welsh in Wales ! . Bizarre'
I find it disturbing that Welsh language fanatics (Welsh Language Board included) no longer make any pretence of respecting the notion of equal opportunities for English-speaking Welsh people in Wales. Unless some attempt to redress the balance within both the Welsh political establishment and in Wales at large is made, resentment will continue to grow and the country will be riven in two. Ultimately, this vision of a Welsh-speaking, nationalist Wales cannot be imposed on a largely hostile or indifferent population without provoking civil discord.
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Monolingual Welsh-speakers no longer exist, so 'English-speaking' Welshmen means all Welshmen. Bilingual Welshmen, however, have a natural employment advantage .
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Hogygog , your .....
"Bilingual Welshmen, however, have a natural employment advantage ."
This would be part of the Nationalist Elitist I guess.
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Betsan's first century ?
Congratulations all around !
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The prerequisite to any important job in Wales now is not talent but bilinguilism. We will inevitably become a nation of mediocrity. While the rest of the world is embracing English as the language of business, the nationalist elite, strangled by their irrational, bitter hatred of all things English, is blithely guiding us all down the path to economic and political destruction.
The fact is that the second Welsh Language Act, coercing businesses to provide services in Welsh, will destroy any chance we have of future prosperity. Foreign businesses will not come to Wales if they have to face the added cost of providing Welsh language services. But perhaps an isolated and insular Wales is what nationalists want.
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A lot of the rest of the world equates bilingualism with talent and monolingualism with mediocrity.
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I think to be bilingual is to be talented, but in Wales we have to create a "living history" to facilitate the dreams of a Welsh language minority.
An erroneous use of linguistic talent.
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It's diificult to stay rational in the face of some of these viewpoints. We've had the "evolution" of Welsh speaking Wales to English speaking (I find that remarkably insulting I must admit). We've had the Welsh Language act as a job destroyer (it's astonishing how people underestimate the ability of capitalistic firms to cope with change - it's like as if there are no bilingual places elsewhere in the world)
We've had the old Welsh is the "language of the hearth but not of the school" nonsense (Didn't anyone tell Griffith Jones???).
To cap it all Noah doesn't believe that people lost the language through English medium education....what did Idris Davies write?
"I lost my native language for the one the Saxon spoke"
Anyway I'mm off to Tescos where the girl who lives in the self service machine speaks a wonderfully robotic Welsh - doesn't seem to have bankrupted them.....
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Speaking different languages is valuable and should be promoted in every culture. This monomania about the Welsh language, however, is not conducive to an internationalist perspective. I would much prefer to see the promotion of French, German, Spanish, Italian and Latin, at least here in Gwent, for example (as used to be the case before we were colonised by the crachach). This might help us build up effective business links with our European partners. Welsh will get us nowhere on this.
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Well thank you Hoggy for placing us english only speaking welshpeople in our place. The current trend of stuffing welsh down our throats is certainly getting a reaction and in long term will not be in best intersts of the language. I have posted previously that where is politician of any party (except PC) who will speak up for interest of majority of welsh people who do not speak welsh. I thought that with creation of S4C and BBC Radio Cymru that welsh speakers with vastly subsidised networks would be happy but seemingly not so with continuing attempts by BBC Wales to "encourage"welsh through it english language programmes. I might be mediocre but my children who have good degrees from English Universities who also do not speak welsh are working at high levels in private sector in Law/Technology in England are not mediocre and have no intention of returning to this very unhappy land of bilingual mediocrities many of whom couldnt find work except in "mickey mouse" ventures such as S4C which is watched by about two people.
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Dewi H - your use of the self-service machine in Tesco's is doing someone out of a job...but then, we all know that nationalists care about their language but not about the people whose lives they trample over.
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Legendary A (95)
Could you name these councils? Or at least one of them?
Stonemason (96)
Try using the service in Welsh. Don't worry about not understanding what's going on - after the first page everything is in English anyway! And try looking up trains to Caerdydd or Abertawe...
It's amazing that speaking Welsh gives you so many advantages, as members of some 'elite', yet if you try teaching a bit of Welsh in schools, to open the 'elite' to others, thats an appalling attack on their human rights...
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NotoNationalism (108)
Tesco screw down their suppliers, pay low wages, sell certain goods at ridiculous discounts to put other, local businesses out of business, while charging over the odds on other goods to make their money back. They fly goods round and round the world to satisfy a need that they have created themselves for out of season fruits, buy flowers from countries where there is not enough clean water for the needs of the local populance and sell clothes made under sweat-shop conditions.
And you're worried about someone using the self service till... Priceless!
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Just1nD, it seems to me extraordinary that you should imply your own concern about the capitalist ethics of large companies - a preoccupation that I share - but show callous disregard for the supermarket employee who, indeed, is paid low wages, but nevertheless needs that job to live.
Nationalists purport to love their country but show little care for the ordinary working people who live in it and make it prosper.
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110. At 5:25pm on 29 Dec 2008, Just1nD wrote:
NotoNationalism (108)
Tesco screw down their suppliers, pay low wages, sell certain goods at ridiculous discounts to put other, local businesses out of business, while charging over the odds on other goods to make their money back. They fly goods round and round the world to satisfy a need that they have created themselves for out of season fruits, buy flowers from countries where there is not enough clean water for the needs of the local populance and sell clothes made under sweat-shop conditions.
And you're worried about someone using the self service till... Priceless!
***********************************
Reply by Noah Sembly.
Just1nD
As a shareholder in Tesco plc. I strongly object to your extremely silly comments about that company.
However, it is not my objections you should be worried about! To make remrks like that on an open BBC forum is just asking for trouble.
Tesco has a turnover of £48 BILLION, and in all probability in 2012 will be the second largest retailer in the world.
I can only guess at the reaction if your comments reach Delamare Road in Cheshunt.
Happy New Year!!!!!!!!
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Just1nD (109) - Torfaen CBC, who are, incidentally switching off half the Borough's lights in the New Year, in order to save money.
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Just1nD at #106
You queried Legendary A #95
"councils have signed up to Welsh language policies that are quite ridiculous in this English-speaking area"
Don't know about South East Wales but here in Pembrokeshire there are plenty.
Milford Haven
Neyland
Llanstadwell
to name just 3
The Councillors got tremendous support in their attemps to block enforcement of the act - even made BBC Wales news.
That off course was shut down pretty quickly.
The WLB don't like that sort of publicity.
The attemps proved futile the councils have been forced to sign up.
Remember here in South West Wales we have been English speaking for 900 years at least.
I have to take issue with this comment of yours!
"It's amazing that speaking Welsh gives you so many advantages, as members of some 'elite', yet if you try teaching a bit of Welsh in schools, to open the 'elite' to others, that's an appalling attack on their human rights..."
Since when has speaking Welsh made anyone a member of some elite - and since when has brainwashing of children to modify their ethnic heritage not been an attack on their rights.
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Just1nD
The problem with the Arriva system is simple to resolve, its programming, have you told Arriva of the issues ? If they don't know it cannot be fixed.
With regards to the use of Welsh, at present approximately 9 percent of the population will satisfy the criteria of competent bilingualism, that rates "Elite" in my books.
I don't think it's attack on their human rights to teach Welsh in school, I think it will be necessary to turn back the clocks 150 years linguistically to satisfy "Plaid Cymru" and "The Welsh Language Society", the issue of language has been hijacked as a political issue, it started with Sanders Lewis and it continues .....
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No to Natrionalism (111)
I would much rather use a real person, but Tesco make no effort to employ Welsh speakers, or to note which employees are Welsh speaking at their check outs.
In fact, if they did, we would probably have more complaints from the usual suspects concerning the disgusting favouritism shown for Welsh speakers...
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I wonder why Noah has been censored... A useful thought on the matter of freedom of speech from Euripides (taken from John Milton's 'Areopagitica'):
'This is true liberty, when free-born men,
Having to advise the public, may speak free,
Which he who can, and will deserves high praise;
Who neither can, nor will, may hold his peace:
What can be juster in a state than this?'
It's time for a free and open debate on the constitution in Wales and on the oppressive language policies being pursued by the Welsh Assembly, at the bidding of the most costly quango in Wales, the Welsh Language Board.
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Notonationalism.
They were good sensible decisions by the moderators.
Nipped in the bud, and all over now.
Back to the language. It is certainly time that some organisations were set up in Wales to promote the English language speakers.
An ENGLISH language board, financed at the same rate as the present WELSH language board is long overdue.
It really is time us Engllish speaking Welsh stood up for ourselves. Until we do, this aggressive Welsh language minority will continue to inflict their will on the majority.
Unfortunately this heavily biased Welsh assembly, composed almost exclusively of Welsh speakers is making decsisions which are cayusing nothing but division in Wales.
This is all the more unfair as almost all the funding for this forced Welsh language promotion comes from the English speaking taxpayers of both Wales and England, yet we have no voice whatsoever
This situation must end quickly.
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Hywel Williams, PC MP, is quoted in the Daily Post Dec 29 2008 .....
"The first drafts of the proposed ID cards had the Union Jack on them. This would have been wholly unacceptable to people living in Wales"
Meri Huws, (chair) The Welsh Language Board, has said .....
"If the Welsh language does not appear on Identity Cards, I don’t believe they will reflect the true identity of the people of Wales, and their linguistic identity in particular."
Both seem to be speaking on behalf of "ALL" Welsh people when referring to the new ID cards.
Both seem to be out of touch with .....
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I have my identity - I do not need genetic engineering by the Welsh Language Board or its political friends. Overpaid representatives of all political parties are aware of the feelings of English-speaking Welsh people, but the truth is they do not care. Our voices are heard, but ignored, and we feel alienated from this new oligarchic Wales in which no politician has sufficient courage or, perhaps, principled consciousness to stand up and challenge this irrational and immoral prioritising of the language over decent education, and the health and welfare of the people of Wales.
In addition, the political elite has made it profitable for all organisations to sing from their hymn sheet - very bad for democracy.
Enough is enough - ignore us at your peril.
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113 and 114 on Welsh Language Schemes.
The Act requires that a Welsh language scheme be adopted to show that the body has thought about how services will be provided to Welsh speakers. It is basic equality legislation, but unlike other equality legislation, there is a proviso 'where practicable'. Thus the Milford town council should have said yes, we will adopt a scheme that says we'll do what's practicable and nothing more". Instead, they decided not to prepare a scheme at all, which would have been illegal, and show a total disdain for the Welsh speaking electorate (however few of them their number may be).
If they have adopted inappropriate schemes, that is their own problem, though easily remedied. The slightest bit of research on their part into the act would show them that the Welsh Language Board can advise, and even order, but that the punishment for ignoring their advice is to be "referred to the minister".
Onto Torfaen's WLS, specifically. Their employment policy regarding Welsh speakers is that "Linguistic ability will be considered as one of the many relevant skills when appointing staff." Sounds pretty logical. The 'encouragement' of developers to adopt Welsh names is quite strong, but hardly draconian.
Your assertions of linguistic bias, Legendary put me in mind of Bargoed a few years ago where everyone had a friend who's relative had been refused the chance to talk at a (Plaid controlled) Town Council meeting because they were unable to speak Welsh. By concidence, the rumours started just before an election. It should also be pointed out that at the time only one of the Town Council members was Welsh speaking.
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Post 121 - sorry, I meant to say social (not genetic) engineering (well it has been a busy Christmas).
The Act is a nonsense, Just1nD, it is divisive and discriminatory. The money spent by the council on the 3 Welsh Language officers it employs to police their WL policy, would be better spent keeping the streets lit at night.
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Just1nD
#121
"The Act requires that a Welsh language scheme be adopted to show that the body has thought about how services will be provided to Welsh speakers. It is basic equality legislation, but unlike other equality legislation, there is a proviso 'where practicable'. "
'where practicable' sounds great, appears to say that the council can consider the practicality of the scheme it signs up to;
Sorry but no it doesn't
The term 'where practicable and appropriate in the circumstances ' is a qualifying phrase appling to individual schemes and measures, and not to the underlying principle itself"
Also the Act states it is the Welsh Language Board that has the remit to adjudicate on the appropriateness and practicability of a proposed Scheme.
The Council simply has to do what its told.
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The chair of the Welsh Language Board, Meri Huws, was previously chair of the Welsh Language Society.
Now she is spending our Millions of Pounds paid in taxes to further the aims of a minority elite.
Unelected of course, though a member of member of the Labour Party.
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West Wales (123)
I agree that the Welsh Language Board has the power to adjudicate, but the punishment for not accepting their adjudication is 'referral to the minister'.
The principal of a Welsh Language Scheme is a good one. No longer can a public body just ignore the language and hope that it will go away - they must think about how to give a service. But the implementation includes the aveat of practicality.
If the councils want to break the law and not have a Welsh Language Scheme, then that is up to them. But if one fo the councils had the guts to stand up and say "Tis is our scheme, it is what we beleive is practical", then the Welsh Language Board better be pretty sure that what they are proposing is better before they take it any further.
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On the contrary, Just1nD, the principle of a Welsh Language Scheme in its current universal and dictatorial form is absurd, particularly in areas of Wales where no one (except for children who have been forced to learn it at school) speaks Welsh.
Draconian policing of the Act merely serves to alienate the people who ten years ago might even, with more sensitive methods, have been persuaded to learn Welsh. Coercion and persistent propaganda from the WAG has had the obverse effect of creating deep resentment towards the language. The fact that Milford Haven Council was ordered to implement the Act illustrates this point and demonstrates the extent to which the Assembly is usurping powers which should be held by Local Authorities.
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You'd be glad to hear that Meri Huws presided over the most stagnant and unproductive period in the Welsh Language Society's history. In fact , everything but the Welsh language was campaigned for under her stewardship. It could be argued that the society lost its way at that time. This ,of course , has nothing at all to do with the allegation that she was a member of the Labour party for years .
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Just1nD - more detail from Torfaen's WL Scheme:
-To increase the number of people able to speak Welsh, internally, and externally via ‘service delivery’.
-The Council has set up a Welsh Language Services Unit, working for both Torfaen and Monmouthshire, comprising Welsh Language Officer, Welsh in the Workplace Co-ordinator and Welsh Translation Co-ordinator.
-The Welsh Language Scheme and Language Skills Strategy will be an integral part of the Council’s approach to human resources management.
-The Council will work towards increasing the number of Welsh-speaking members of staff in customer care centres.
-Welsh medium education to have ‘strategic direction’, and pupils’ home to school transport to be considered a key issue.
-The Council will expect bodies or organisations carrying out services on its behalf to comply with their Welsh Language Scheme, including services that are contracted out.
-When the Council is partner in a consortium, it will expect the consortium to adopt a bilingual policy.
-When the Council joins or forms a partnership it will ask prospective partners about their own Welsh language schemes.
-When granting licenses and permissions the Council will encourage applicants to follow a bilingual practice and use the Welsh language in their activities.
-Any new building developments will be encouraged to have a suitable Welsh name.
-The Council’s communications team will ensure that any events the Council plans to promote the Welsh language, ie., St. David’s Day concert, trips for Welsh speakers/learners, Welsh discussion reading groups in libraries, is promoted in the Welsh language media.
-The percentage of posts advertised in Welsh for posts where Welsh is an essential/desirable requirement will increase significantly over the next few years with the implementation set within the Council’s Welsh Language Skills Strategy.
-Linguistic ability will be considered as one of the many relevant skills when appointing staff.
-The Council will arrange events targeted specifically for the Welsh-speaking community and learners.
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Good for Torfaen. Thank you legendaryavocet for the best news I've had in ages.
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Yes, good for Torfaen indeed. Good that they are prioritising their budget so wisely - spending vast amounts of money to benefit 0.000 per cent of residents. Yes, this is certainly a much more important service than the provision of street lighting.
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Torfaen are generous enough to arrange events for learners who want to take advantage of their far-sighted policies.
Join in !
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During 2007 Welsh Language Board published a discussion document .....
titled "Background Paper On The Future Of Welsh Language Policy And Development In Wales"
In this document there was a sigh of relief from the board when it wrote .....
"Assembly Government’s decision to postpone the abolition of the Board"
Does this mean the Welsh Language Board could be living on borrowed time ? With sufficient opposition that might be the case.
Hogygog, Meri Huws is a a member of the Labour party, this is not an allegation, this membership is published in the Welsh Language Board web site.
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For 'generous' substitute 'profligate' with Welsh taxpayers' hard-earned cash.
For 'far-sighted' substitute 'myopic' to the real needs, sensitivity and aspirations of the indiginous population.
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Indeed. The membership of the Labour party was alleged by many to be one of the reasons of the Welsh Language Society's compartaive inactivity during the early 80's . The movement was 'infiltrated' to some extent by people whose primary concern was not the Welsh Language , but other 'left-leaning' issues.
The miners' strike was a rare example where both interests coincided , but support was given to other causes whose supporters did not reciprocate .
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Meri Huws is also listed as a member of 'Tomorrow's Wales', an organisation that appears to be supported by prominent people in Welsh Society, that has been, since 2004 pro-active in campaigning for, 'a system of devolved government within the United Kingdom'. Busy lady...........
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I have just read a copy of the "Welsh Language Measure 2007" that is with our MPs at Westminster.
If the measure becomes law then all will be lost, overnight an underclass would be created, overnight a new aristocracy would be created.
The Welsh Language Board is replaced by a Welsh Language Council, this council will drive the fortunes, or otherwise, of Wales. The council becomes an inquisition, being able to advise AMs whether the advice is required or not. If the Assembly is slow on the uptake the council could also create law by default, no scrutiny, an opportunity for abuse. Emigration might be the order of the day.
Of course, it has not passed through Westminster as yet. Recently I called this LCO a cudgel, I was wrong, this would be a Welsh guillotine to suppress any opposition to the lunatic fringe behind this malodorous LCO.
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Stonemason, this is indeed disturbing news - if this LCO is approved there will certainly be civil disobedience.
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Peter Black tells me it is a proposed measure not an LCO. Then adds "It is also an aspirational document produced by a pressure group. It is not an official WAG document".
Is PB saying it is proposed measure and aspirational document therefore we should not be concerned ?
Who do you believe when there is such secrecy surrounding legislation. Has anyone seen the document being used in Westminster? If the measure is rejected will its contents be made public?
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As a Sais living just inside the border, it's intriguing to see the passions aroused by the politics of the Welsh language.
If it's your mother tongue, clearly a passion for it is understandable, all the more so if you regard it as a patriotic issue.
But I don't understand why there is so much visceral hostility to the Welsh language from some English speakers who have grown up in Wales. Is it resentment from having it thrust down their throats in school?
In Aberystwyth Uni decades ago it was noticeable that Welsh was always accepted amicably and respectfully by non-Welsh-speakers whereas in Bangor Uni there was outright hostility. I wonder why? (It might be different now - it was a long time ago!)
Is it because some English speakers think of Welsh as just so much noise? I don't speak the language, but I certainly wouldn't have made the mistake of putting up a "Merched" sign on the Market Hall in Newtown!
My one language gripe is that I hate mix-and-match names like "Friends of the Earth Cymru"! Tir Ffrindiau Cymru (excuse if that's not a correct translation) is fine by me, or Friends of the Earth Wales, but that mixture really grates.
Oh, another small grumble: I wish more organisations would collect info at some point about which language one reads, so they could send out reduced amount of paper just in the required language where a significant amount of paper would be saved.
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Stonemason (138)
You could write a piece of Welsh Language legislation yourself for the abolition of the Assembly. You could put it on the web. You could talk to government ministers about it. You could even marry Meri Huws. It wouldn't make it government policy.
Its a pity that Betsan has probably given up reading these messages weeks ago, as she might be able to tell us if there is some way of reading the LCO. But as the LCO will only give permission to the Assembly to attempt to legislate, and must go through the democratic processes (!) as prescribed by the Government of Wales Act before any measure will ensue.
But, there's nothing like misinformation and scare tactics to move the debate on...
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Civil disobedience ? Oooh I'm scared !
My, is the sun setting on the British empire ?
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samthecentipede:
no organisation would ever be allowed to collect info/provide a choice regarding which language one reads because although the savings and environmental benefit would be huge.... the results would be an embarrasment and set the Welsh language/independence cause (yes the two are very much linked) back decades.
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I think you could be right Just1nD, for info ....
This is what the Welsh Language Society is publishing as the LCO ....
The Right to Services in Welsh
1. Every person in Wales has the right to services in Welsh whether they are services provided on payment or without payment.
2. In accordance with section (1) above, service providers shall take every appropriate action to provide their services in Welsh.
3. For the purposes of this Part "appropriate action" means an action that takes account of but is not limited to the following —
(a) the number of persons employed by the service provider;
(b) the location of the service provider;
(c) the linguistic nature of the area served by the service provider as described in the atlas commissioned by the Welsh Language Council referred to in subsection 7(2)(e);
(d) the nature of the service users; and
(e) the nature of the services provided.
4. The Welsh Ministers may determine by order what additional matters shall be considered in determining whether an action is appropriate in relation to sections (2) and (3) above.
5. For the purposes of this Part —
(a) services include goods, information and facilities, and
(b) “service provider” means a person who provides services aimed at the public or at any section of the public in Wales and includes the following —
(i) Crown bodies
(ii) The National Assembly for Wales;
(iii) The Welsh Assembly Government, its agencies and its sponsored public bodies;
(iv) all public bodies specified as public bodies under the Welsh Language Act 1993;
(v) all regulated public utilities not included in (iv) above;
(vi) all financial, insurance and pension services;
(vii) all shops and other retail locations;
(vii) all entertainment and leisure facilities;
(ix) all premises that sell food or drink to the public; and
(x) all hotels, motels, bed and breakfast accommodation and other such accommodation.
Hogygog, when ordinary Welsh people read or hear about this claptrap, the majority will say "No" to much more, as Cardiffian2008 writes.
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Looks like businesses will have the tongue police visiting them if the nationalists from the bay of plenty have their way. (by nationalists I mean closet nationalists in the Labour, Conservative and Liberal Dem. Parties
If there were to be a referendum Adam Price would like to hoodwink the public by inferring the people of Wales are less well off than the people of Scotland by putting the question something like this:-
Would the people of Wales like full law making powers like those of Scotland?
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The political elite appear to be getting less hungry for a referendum to decide further powers for themselves.
Could it be that they know they have been rumbled by the people of Wales and do not stand a chance of winning a referendum. Their personal greed, the nationalists desire for independence - even if it means plunging us all into third world poverty, and the Welsh Language Stasi imposing their will on an increasingly resentful majority, are all contributory factors to this change of heart.
The One-Wales agreement has promised delivery of a referendum before 2011 - will we get one? or will more of these damaging measures be swiftly and undemocratically devolved to the National Assembly without consulting the Welsh people?
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Thanks to everybody who has exposed the shocking proposals contained in the LCO. As I understood it the aim of devolution was to improve public services etc for the benefit of the welsh people,however we seem to be going down the route of a "talibanised"Wales run for the benefit of welsh speakers and not the vast majority who are english only speakers and in my case have no interest what so ever in the welsh language and even more resent my taxes going to subsidise S4C and other bodies. If the welsh language speakers want S4C and other such things let them pay for it direct as I do with my SKY services.If were not careful with the welsh language fanatics gaining more powers and our political pygmies running to their tune (expenses must be claimed) then english speakers will soon be wearing "white stars" to denote us as second class citizens.
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Snoutsintrough.
We don't know whats in the LCO. Stonemason is pulling your p***er, quoting the Welsh Language Society's version of what they would like to see. The measure hasn't been written yet. When (if) the LCO is granted, there will be an open debate in the Assembly.
You can lobby your AMs; watch the debate so you know who's proposing / supporting what; lobby parliament, the Lords, the WI and everyone else who has power of veto; and suggest your own way of affording more rights to Welsh speakers without effecting non Welsh-speakers. Speak to the Assembly rather than ignoring / denigrating it, and you could help to steer the route to bilingualism just as much as those of us who are Welsh speaking.
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Just1nD, at 143 I wrote ....
"I think you could be right Just1nD, for info ....
This is what the Welsh Language Society is publishing as the LCO ...."
We think we don't know what's in the LCO, but if you go back to the top and read Betsan again she finishes with ....
"Incidentally: remember that other Christmas wish I mentioned? The Plaid official and the Welsh Language LCO? ........... His message? Now is not the time to put any more pressure on Welsh businesses. Prepare to redraft."
Think about the snippets of information that have come from our politicians during the last 6 months, both Labour and PC, the Welsh Language LCO is known to our politicians, and in its present form will tear Wales apart, if it becomes law.
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Just1nD,
Writing to and lobbying AMs serves absolutely no purpose at all. You receive only platitudes or callous indifference. The last time I wrote to Rhodri Morgan about the absurdity of the investment in Welsh language community sports officers in anglicised areas (since sport itself is a universal language and surely Welsh-speaking and English-speaking children should be encouraged to play together), I received a smugly worded catalogue of Welsh projects on which the Assembly had undertaken to spend my taxes, from a civil servant with the obligatory impeccably Welsh name.
The hegemony in Wales is with Welsh language fanatics. As far as the Assembly is concerned, the English speaking majority does not exist. The place is filled with Nats. In effect, it is a nest of nationalism. We English speakers are considered to be immigrants and usurpers, not 'proper Welsh' and therefore not worthy of rights.
The fact that our ancestors slaved underground and made this country prosperous means nothing to these middle class Welsh nationalist zealots.
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Just1nD #125
You say
"I agree that the Welsh Language Board has the power to adjudicate, but the punishment for not accepting their adjudication is 'referral to the minister'."
Not quite correct - The Act makes provision in section 18 for the investigation of complaints against a Public Body where a breach of the Language Scheme is alleged.
Such investigations are to be carried out by the Board itself.
There is no appeal against its findings. - However the Board can if it wishes refer cases to the Secretary of State, who can make directions.
The board has wide powers including the disqualification of Councillors and Councils
Further The provisions of section 18 do not exclude private prosecutions to obtain financial redress against a council or individual councillor for mistakes in operating language schemes.
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I'm afraid all the underground work didn't make Wales prosperous. It built up an Empire , certainly, but not many Welshmen grew rich on the mines. Wales's economic decline is hardly the fault of nationalism. On the contrary, its economy had been built on the basis of serving others. In all honesty , what is an 'impeccable ' Welsh name ?. Aneurin Bevan and Dylan Thomas had impeccable Welsh names, but they were hardly friends of the Welsh language. I myself have a surname which would not pass muster in deepest Surrey. The assembly, if anything , lacks civil servants with a working knowledge of Welsh. I myself would consider the place as a nest of careerists and failed councillors
I would think a lot of miners would have been Welsh-speaking, incidentally .
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There is a process being played out here.
A process designed to bypass the democratic views of the majority and to impose the twisted political vision of a minority.
It is similar to the process that was used to develop the Common Market into the all powerful federalist EU we have today.
While a referendum is vital - it is unlikely that the Assembly will agree to hold one.
We need to properly coordinate opposition, we also need to demonstrate that opposition to the demands of the Language and Nationalist fanatics is not anti Welsh.
As Notonationalism says above at #126
"Draconian policing of the Act merely serves to alienate the people who ten years ago might even, with more sensitive methods, have been persuaded to learn Welsh. Coercion and persistent propaganda from the WAG has had the obverse effect of creating deep resentment towards the language."
Didn't someone start a group called "True Wales" some months ago - what happened to it.
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West-Wales, True Wales is very much alive and flourishing.
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West Wales.... Go to the True Wales web site.
There you will get all the info you need, you can also join the movement of you feel, inclined, just like many of us in Wales have already joined.
I think a fiver joining fee is small beer when compared to the hundreds that will be the cost to each of us, if these nationalistic language nutters get their way.
No to the LCO,
NO to the Language,
No to the Assembly,
NO to the WAG.
No to the squandering of our taxes supporting all of this pseudo political nonsesne.
I need reptresentation for my taxes, not having to hang around while my future is decided by a bunch of lingo craszed nutballs.
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#144 nomorepowers wrote:
"Would the people of Wales like full law making powers like those of Scotland?"
Yes, because they don't want to continue under the heel of an English-dominated Parliament, and an Assembly which is so weak that its an insult to the people of Wales who elected it.
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No, brynt41, if my memory serves me right, 40 per cent of the people of Wales voted for a Welsh Assembly.
Many now regret having voted yes, because they did not foresee the profligacy and poor calibre of the politicians, the Government of Wales Act 2006 with all its flaws, the creation of the Welsh Language Board with its undemocratic power to divide the people of Wales and discriminate against the majority of its citizens, and the nationalists' determination to separate us from the rest of the United Kingdom. Most of all they did not foresee the echelons of Welsh Society, Church, media, business, unions, all lining up to sup from the 'trough'.
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Brynt41,
So you want Welsh independence.
The UK parliament is one of the most respected institutions in the world. To opt out of it and become a tiny, anonymous little nation in a world that is becoming increasingly globalised would show a subjection to ideology foolish beyond compare.
It would also condemn the people of Wales to a poverty not seen for generations since we would lose the £9.1 billion pounds per year that we receive from the British coffers. Perhaps you think we can go grovelling for money from the European Union. We will not, I think you'll find, get the help that Ireland got. They will simply view us as a self-indulgent little country that has committed economic suicide over childishly bitter gripes about a fictional past.
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#156 ,legendaryavocet
The 1997 Devolution Referendum:
Turnout 50.1%
For an Assembly 50.3%
Against an Assembly 49.7%
My math suggests that only 25.2% of the Welsh electorate Voted for the Assembly.
(Incidentally the only major party to support a No vote was the Conservatives.)
Well that's democracy in action - but its certainly time for a rerun.
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How right you are notonationalism. Here, here!!!!If this goes through we will end up worse than Zimbabwe...and with worse weather too boot.
Some plaid AMs remnd me of the worst excesses of nazi Germany
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Thanks for the accurate figures, West-Wales, it just reinforces the undemocratic nature of the process. One can understand the electorate's reluctance to engage, and use their democratic right to vote if they feel that the outcome is weighted in favour of the political establishment. There should be a requirement for a 50% majority in any referendum to decide something as fundamental as our constitution.
Only a few weeks ago the nats were citing Iceland as a model that Wales should follow to be a successfully independent nation. How could anyone have confidence in people who have such vacuous ideas.
It's time to prioritise resources wisely, halt the profligacy of all politicians, stop the nation-building and promotion of nationalist ideals and culture, and maintain our union in the United Kingdom. That way we are stronger and more able to look after all of our people.
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Bring back John Redwood I say, mow theres a secratary of state for you
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The main point Betsan was making in this Blog was the ill considered use of expenses by some of the AM's.
The right for AM's to claim expenses is proper as is the very loose set of rules to constrain the use of those expenses.
AM's are supposed to be people of competence and judgement, they are chosen by the various political groups to run Wales.
That they treat the privilege of the right to make judgements about how they spend our money with such incredible self indulgence merely demonstrates they are not fit the run our country.
Lets get rid of them all.
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Bring back John Redwood to rule us..or what about David Gibson Watt.he was Minister for Welsh Affairs in the 1950s....very sound man
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#159
"Some plaid AMs rem[i]nd me of the worst excesses of nazi Germany"
##85, 98, 146, 149, 152:
"language fanatics"
(as opposed to):
##4,6,10,15,44,45,51,56,66,72,81,84,85,107,118,143,145,146,152,156,160
English-speaking "majority"
The rhetoric in this debate is hot and dangerous. Taking it seriously for a second, the logic of the argument of "Snoutsintrough", "Westwales", "Monmouthisenglish" and others cited above becomes something like this:
i) a majority of people in Wales do not speak Welsh, and
ii) therefore democracy decrees that the Welsh language should not be supported because
iii) those who do not agree with me are fanatics and, further
iv) any minorities (i.e. non-monoglot English speaker) who request a greater degree of cultural diversity and respect for local native languages, are behaving like totalitarians.
The only correct assertion here is (i); the rest of the 'argument' depends on false inference and extremely dangerous rhetoric. The question of 'majority/minority' will get us nowhere, especially if being in a minority immediately makes you wrong (and, what's more, instantly a "fanatic").
The "nazi" comment is simply sick, and Monmouth... should be ashamed of him/herself for treading on such ground.
These are important questions which deserve better - and which at the very least deserve substantiated claims.
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Message 164...
I think you are taking your view on politics to mean something that democracy is not akin to.
In ALL legally formulated regions of the world, especially in the western sphere, the rule of law is decided by the MAJORITY.
Usually by a simple majority at that.
We can all complain about a scarce margin such as occurred in the Devolution referendum in 1997 or whenever, where the winning margin was about 0.02% or something like it, but the reason it was disputed was because the turnout was not shown to be totally representative of the electorate as a whole.
That said, we need to concentrate on the true facts of democratic rights, and to simply say that the majority is riding roughshod over the rights of the minority is not the facts, at ground level.
IT is normal for the ruling majority to take care of the minorities interests, but not at a cost that can be seen to bring a large degree of poverty to the majority, on a parity basis.
The funding of the Cymraeg element within Wales goes far beyond the requirement to 'take care of the minority'.
The British taxpayer is, therefore, being reduced in personal wealth to ensure that the Cymraeg element is being featherbedded.
Not to forget the outcome of all this language pressure, being something that I seriously doubt will be welcomed by nine tenths of the population of Wales.... the thorny matter of ...independence.
There is nothing at all wrong with a portion of our population speaking what they claim to be their mother tongue ( I would dispute that anyway), but democracy requires that, in order for the language to be sustained, it should be at the behest, and support of it's users.
Monoglotism has nothing to do with the argument, what does have, and is the most important factor, is the matter of it being funded by everyone in the UK, ninety nine percent who will never use it.
Here in Torfaen, there are moves afoot to bring Cymraeg to the fore over and above English.
That is as serious breach of the rights, democratic, as well as human, of the population of this area, where the possible number fluent in Cymraeg is no more than about 2%.
Even those, and the possible new fluents, that are currently passing through our education system, have English as their 'mother tongue' and are entitled by democratic majority to cast aside such proposed new legislation.
WE elected our representatives in Torfaen without reference by them to any mandate for a Cymraeg agenda, and I see the next council elections in this town being swamped with rhetoric, anti Cymraeg.
I for one, will certainly be at the forefront of such antipathetic rhetoric on the stumps, However let me make this explicitly plain, not because I am against the Cymraeg language, but simply because the current moves by the Assembly/WAG, are compelling my council to take actions that are not democratically allowed for by the voters of the Torfaen/Gwent areas.
Nor can they be afforded, by us the taxpayers, who have far more important and pressing priorities to hand.
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Bostoniwr, to criticise momouthisenglish for stating .....
"Some plaid AMs remnd me of the worst excesses of nazi Germany"
at #159 is a little rich, when Saunders Lewis, founder of the Welsh National Party (later our own PC), is on record as having praised Adolf Hitler when he said .....
"At once he fulfilled his promise — a promise which was greatly mocked by the London papers months before that — to completely abolish the financial strength of the Jews in the economic life of Germany."
Not just praise for the abhorrent dictator, but anti-Semitic to boot.
Pot and Black springs to mind.
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Let's be clear about one thing - momouthisenglish is being ironic! It may not be very subtle or clever, but then, neither are the contributions of his opponents on this thread, the anti-Welsh bigots who hate anything that is different to them.
Long live irony, I say.
Blwyddyn Newydd Dda!
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re 164
We are in recession, nationalists are in collaboration with socialists in government, one section of the population is being marginalised, and culturally and socially engineered to further the ideals of the 'pure' Welsh.
One only needs to refer to the Welsh Language Society's suggested version of the expected new language LCO, with it's continual reference to the word 'enforcement'
it is legitimate therefore to draw analogies with the situation in Wales today and Germany in the thirties
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FiDafydd
"the anti-Welsh bigots who hate anything that is different to them".
Bit naive saying that a Welshman who doesn't want to speak Welsh and doesn't want it force fed to his kids, is anti-Welsh and a bigot.
Perhaps you'd like to come down to my local and discuss it over a pint?
Tell me why are all the adverts on S4C in English.
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Message 169....
Simple really, it's well known the viewers of S4C can speak English, it's also known that most people 'switch off' mentally when the adverts are on, and it is the subliminal 'message' that gets taken up, more or less, without the recipient realising it.
However, you can bet that research has been done that shows that even the 'subliminal' message does not get through in Cymraeg.
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It's interesting to read, on the previous page the article headed: 'Ten 'iconic' sites win £2m cash, most of them connected with the 'rural brigands who have been ennobled by being called princes."
In difficult enonomic times - another example of unwise prioritisation by the nationalist Assembly culture minister.
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You know very well West-Wales that I'm talking about certain individuals on this and other threads who are consistently and virulently anti-Welsh. Your mates in the pub would have nothing to do with them, as the vast majority of the Welsh - that I've met, anyway- are decent people.
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Ah....
FiDafydd deems some who comment as less than decent, those would be opposite views I guess.
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1. Stonemason (#166), re pots calling kettles black, you are confused:
i) Saunders Lewis was not an AM
ii) I am not Saunders Lewis
iii) So which 'pot' is doing the calling here?
In any case, SL is far from praising the "worst excesses" of Nazism here (however unpleasant his comments may be).
I'm interested, though, that you distance Saunders Lewis' party (you interestingly give it an English name) from what "later" became "our PC".
2. Legendaryavocet (#174) "one section of the population is being marginalised, and culturally and socially engineered to further the ideals of the 'pure' Welsh."
Again, use of ugly and shallow rhetoric without even attempting a shred of evidence. You suggest that allowing greater respect for the Welsh language is tantamount to "social engineering". This may be true, but only as far as the entire education system is 'social engineering'. Do you support removing all government funding from education? How about health? - Aren't hospitals also 'social engineering?' (damn those doctors for removing us from our natural state of illness and progressive decay!).
I repeat - it is neither ironic nor humorous to make the grotesque comparison with the torture, dehumanisation and extermination of the Jews and other minorities. Your "analogies" are *entirely* illegitimate, and are the thin end of a very, very, very unpleasant wedge of intolerance and hatred.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
FiDafydd & others.
I agree some of the comments on this blog make unpleasant accusations.
Both sides are guilty, and the debate is at times breaking down into a simple exchange of insults.
I object strongly (as do my mates down the Pub) to being described as "consistently and virulently anti-Welsh" simply because we strongly oppose the Welsh Language Act and want to see the back of the Assembly.
And yes all are decent honest people - if a little direct - we even have a couple of English who are made welcome.
These two main issues:
1/
The Act is now high profile because it is being forced on our local Councils.
We also strongly oppose our children being forced to learn Welsh at school when many would like to learn another language.
The Act and actions of the WLB is comparable to the social engineering legislation seen extreme dictatorships in the early 1900's.
The Act is damaging the Welsh Language, divisive it is setting the Welsh people against each other, as well as destroying some areas of Welsh Cultural heritage.
The proposed Language LCO is a step too far and will certainly be met with strong resistance.
2/
The Act simply highlights that the devolution experiment is by any measure a complete failure.
The Assembly is over bureaucratic and wasteful, we are seriously over governed.
The operating costs and overspending on frivolities are out of all proportion to what it is supposed to do and dramatically fails to achieve.
The quality and ability of the average AM is unacceptably poor, they play politics instead of driving Wales forward.
Few have any ideas or vision - none a clear appreciation of what running a country is about.
Lets face it almost none would make decent County Councillors.
Unfortunately the media doesn't help spends its time making celebrities of nonentities and gossiping about party infighting over personalities.
For myself I am proud to be Welsh - and I am a strong supporter of Britain and the Union.
Better to be governed as the United Kingdom from Westminster, than governed by a minority group of blinkered nationalists, whose aims have more to do with forcing their language and customs down my throat, than building a great nation for all our people.
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Bostoniwr, not confused .....
It is imperative that English is used, comments have been moderated out for Welsh terminology, and quite rightly so as this is an English language blog.
Your ....
"SL is far from praising the "worst excesses" of Nazism"
I find SLs' "to completely abolish the financial strength of the Jews in the economic life of Germany" to be excessive.
Your "Saunders Lewis was not an AM"
Quite correct, he was a felon, a self confessed arsonist, the father of modern Welsh Nationalists.
Your "I am not Saunders Lewis "
That is fortunate.
Your "So which 'pot' is doing the calling here?"
I connected the tempo of your writing with either a Nationalist, Welsh Language Society, or something of that ilk, tarred with the SL brush methinks.
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#174. Bostoniwr, your
"I'm interested, though, that you distance Saunders Lewis' party (you interestingly give it an English name) from what "later" became "our PC"."
Why would I give the party a name other than its English name, I did not distance myself from SLs party, I tried to follow the rules of the blog.
It was not "our PC", I wrote "later our own PC" in my haste it should have read "later our very own PC".
Your "In any case, SL is far from praising the "worst excesses" of Nazism here".
I would take issue, SL praised the theft of all the wealth of the Jews in Germany during the 1930's, he condoned the actions of Hitler, I have never read of any classification of the excesses of this regime in terms of bad, not so bad, just a little bad. SL is the modern founding father of all things extreme in Wales today, is it not surprising we have such excesses amongst the Nationalists.
Not confused, in a hurry.
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A question for you, TheStonemason #178; I'm interested in the logic of your position:
You seem to suggest that since SL made an antisemitic comment in the 1930s [unfortunately not unusual for right-wing politicians of the time], it is a sound conclusion that Plaid Cymru can be compared with Nazis. If this argument is sound, then you surely accept that all political parties who once had antisemites, fascists, racists, etc. high in their ranks must be condemned for the sins of their fathers and equally dismissed.
So pretty much all of Germany. Italy, too. Russia. Much of Eastern Europe. Fair chunks of the Irish political scene. USA... the list would be endless. Most of the world, in fact (not to forget the other main Welsh and UK political parties), should be beneath your contempt due to the actions of past generations.
You were in a hurry certainly. In far too much of a hurry to condemn without reason. (And a footnote on "excesses" - it is surely obvious that early fellow-travellers with the National Socialists may not be held as much to blame as those who saw the full horrors of the war unfold and still stayed on board. SL was blameworthy perhaps, but certainly not in anything like the way you suggest).
And Westwales #176, you continue to throw unsubstantiate claims around. Just one example to close: "The Act and actions of the WLB is comparable to the social engineering legislation seen extreme dictatorships in the early 1900's. "
This would be a very interesting claim were you able to put even a shred of evidence on it.
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Re 174
Bostoniwr, The current administration in Cardiff Bay have the idea that:
- we see the signs and we learn the Welsh word.
- Compulsory Welsh in the curriculum and and teaching children that Wales has been subjugated by the English is desirable - when, in fact, it was a class struggle, suffered equally by Welsh and English workers at the hands of the ruling classes of both our countries.
- Local Authorities are forced to adopt a policy of training their staff in Welsh, then giving preference to Welsh-speakers when recruiting staff. This is an inducement to learn the language out of fear that you won't get a job.
These are some of the methods being used to change our way of life and 'tribalise' us. This is not a healthy way to conduct the business of government. Their 'one size fits all' policy does not work.
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Just as a footnote to the matter of the criminal arsonist Saunders Lewis, Plaid Cymru's founding father.
Readers are reminded that, during WWII, the same Saunders Lewis campaigned against the evacuation of English children, from the centres of manufacture in the Midlands, to the less densely populated areas of Wales on the pretext that their presence would "pollute the culture".
He preferred them to be crushed by the Nazi bombs that were obliterating their homes. He was prepared to sacrifice their innocent lives for the sake of his damned 'culture'.
The spirit of ethnic cleansing lies at the very heart of Welsh Nationalism.
Nationalists = not very nice people.
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Bostoniwr , your ....
"accept that all political parties who once had anti-Semites, fascists, racists, etc. high in their ranks must be condemned for the sins of their fathers and equally dismissed."
You are absolutely correct, but it is the party not country - you are not suggesting the innocent be coupled with the guilty, if the party has not changed they must be condemned, has PC changed? And let us not forget that the original sin may be augmented by other very similar sins, does PC exhibit such similar sins, is PC racist in any way, just a rhetorical question to highlight the point.
your .....
"You were in a hurry certainly. In far too much of a hurry ....."
During military service we were instructed that individually a serviceman or woman is personally responsible for their actions. We were taught to say "No" to the excesses of military services at the first sign of such behaviour, recently servicemen have paid the price for not doing so in the middle east.
If SL had retracted his position soon after making his statement he could be forgiven because he did not take part personally in the anti-Semitic actions, he didn't.
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In 1936 Saunders Lewis, together with two other activists, set fire to the RAF base at Penyberth in Gwynedd. just before the onset of World War II, when Anti-Jewish laws were being passed, and the persecution had already started in Germany. He was sentenced to nine months imprisonment.
In September 2008, senior Plaid politicians attended a commemoration of the burning of the RAF base, one of whom said he was still inspired by the action taken in 1936.
Plus ca change............
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It was September this year that Plaid's MEP Gill Evans and President Dafydd Iwan both attended and spoke at the celebratory event commemorating the 1936 burning of the RAF bombing school at Penyberth, Gwynedd, by three early Plaid activists, including its then president Saunders Lewis.
The symbolic burning, which resulted in the jailing of Mr Lewis and his colleagues, is a totemic event for Welsh nationalists.
Mr Iwan said: “The significance of the burning of the bombing school at Penyberth is still a powerful influence on my thinking".
Since then Mr Iwan has been re-elected as President of the Nationalists.
Surely his re-election, shows that the party fully endorse his beliefs and attitude.
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OOOOPs
should have read, last year
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Nomorepowers, a new book has been published, recalling the years when Welsh extremists fought with gelignite and firebombs in the name of nationalism.
I guess in the current climate, it has become fashionable to admire these people - they have certainly succeeded in achieving political power and exerting influence over the rest of us.
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Nomorepowers, It's funny how nationalists are not concerned enough to defend their position.
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Legendaryavocet,
That's because they still regard these nationalist arsonists (don't want to get censored by putting in the 't' word) as heroes..
..and because the firebombing tactics have paid off.
The glorification of these activities is now orthodoxy in Welsh political establishment circles - a result of the platform given to Plaid by Rhodri Morgan and the other nationalists who have infiltrated the upper echelons of the Labour Party.
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Funny. I was under the impression that PC had been infiltrated by Labour supporters, hence women-only shortlists etc.
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#164 Bostoniwr
I agree 100% with your observations here. I can not express the point better, other then to say that the rhetoric is ratcheted up by many here.
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Re. 190
I couldn't agree more.
The biggest irony in the latest hateful rants that talk of fascism and all sorts of nonsense is that they forget the true history. What happened in Nazi Germany was that a minority of the population became the subject of mistrust and hatred based purely on prejudice, propaganda and, most of all, paranoia.
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More than a little humbug there, FiDafydd, and you know it. The growth of nazism began with a small nationalist-socialist Party with ideas of nationhood and a determination to promote the notion of cultural and linguistic superiority. We now have a socialist-nationalist government down the Bay. Surely we have reason to be concerned.
As for the firebombing campaigns of the past, we wait ever more folornly for some refutation of the idea that Plaid supporters/nationalists do not view these activies as heroic. Perhaps, Drachenfyre or FiDafydd, you can put our minds at ease.
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Sorry - that should read 'some refutation of the idea that Plaid supporters/nationalists view these activities as heroic'.
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You see, that's the point. I felt a little embarrassed with my last post, you lot seem to have no shame at all in expressing your hatred in post after post.
The Penyberth Three - a minister of religion who had fought in the First World War, a school master and an university lecturer - burnt an empty shed at Penyberth and immediately handed themselves in to the police to face the consequences. Hardly the act of some fundamentalist terrorists. It is you that uses the word 'heroic', the word I (and many others) would use would be 'symbolic'.
It was decided to build the Bombing School - if ever two words were incompatible it is these - at Penyberth, a place of cultural significance for the Welsh, after initial plans to build it in England had been changed because of some rare bird population if my memory serves me right. That is the background. Not that I'm expecting you 'Notonationalism' to take the blindest bit of notice.
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The rise of the Nazi's was precipitated by rampant inflation in Germany coupled with untenable Reparations payments to England, France, and USA and the worldwide economic depression. Additionally, the commercially vaulable Saarland was occupied by France.
The Nazi's exploited the weeknesses of the government of the day to deal with all of these pressures, and pointed to Jews, Catholics, Gays, Gypsies and others as visable sources for their woes.
In Wales, Lewis' observations of Nazi Germany were in line with the prevailing diplomatic sentiment across the political spectrum in England.
In 1933 Winston Churchill characterised Mussolini as 'the greatest lawgiver among men',[Canadine op cit p52] and later wrote in his 1937 book Great Contemporaries, "If our country were defeated, I hope we should find a champion as admirable (as Hitler) to restore our courage and lead us back to our place among the nations". In the same work, Churchill expressed a hope that despite Hitler's apparent dictatorial tendencies, he would use his power to rebuild Germany into a worthy member of the world community. And in August 1936, Liberal party member David Lloyd George met Hitler at Berchtesgaden and offered some public comments that were surprisingly favourable to the German dictator, expressing warm enthusiasm both for Hitler personally and for Germany's public works schemes (upon returning, he wrote of Hitler in the Daily Express as "the greatest living German", "the George Washington of Germany"
In point of fact, with the War more Plaid Cymry members fought against facism and Nazi German. "[Welsh nationalists] did far more to bring victory than hasten defeat". [Artical: Bards under the beds, South Wales police website]
Ambrose Bebb, a founding member of the party, was one of the most outspoken party members in support of the War. Bebb considered Nazi Germany's total defeat in the war as essential.[Davies, History of Wales, page 599]
Additionally, many of the Plaid Genedlaethol Cymru served in Britain's armed forces.[Davies, History of Wales, page 599] Additionally, Lewis maintained a strict neutrality in his writings through his column Cwrs y Byd in Y Faner. It was his attempt at an unbiased interpretation of the causes and events of the war.[Davies, History of Wales, page 599]
And following the war, Gwynfor Evens was elected party president in 1945, marking the official turn towards party pacifism which was the primary hallmark of Welsh national sentiment largely ignored by the UK authorities. [Artical: Bards under the beds, South Wales police website]
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-Drachenfyre- @ #190
You say;
#164 Bostoniwr
I agree 100% with your observations here. I can not express the point better, other then to say that the rhetoric is ratcheted up by many here.
Well now, Bostoniwr grossly miss-represents the position;
Taking each point:
i) a majority of people in Wales do not speak Welsh,
This is of course true 75 to 80% of Welsh people do not speak Welsh
ii) therefore democracy decrees that the Welsh language should not be supported.
- Not true, and no one has said that - what is in contention is whether or not the Welsh language, and some fabricated idealised Welsh culture, should be forced on individuals and communities against their wishes.
iii) those who do not agree with me are fanatics.
- Not those who disagree with "me", - those who insist on destroying my culture and heritage on the grounds that to be Welsh we all have to submit to the "Fanatics" ideas of what language I should speak and what my communities culture should be.
iv) any minorities (i.e. non-monoglot English speaker) who request a greater degree of cultural diversity and respect for local native languages, are behaving like totalitarians.
- This is not a matter of requesting - its a case of enforcement.
Read the current WLAct, look at what is proposed for the Language LCO.
Neither is by any measure reasonable or appropriate.
The legislation removes choice, denies work, especially in public bodies, to non Welsh speakers.
The act sets up a system of control and penalties for non compliance, further the controlling body, The WLB is Judge and jury. There is no appeal.
This is totalitarian legislation.
My Children, despite wanting to learn a modern European language at school were forced to take Welsh (remember this is an English speaking part of Wales) - The only way they fit in another language was to give up another subject, in our case it was one of the sciences.
Have you any idea how disgusting it is to find your community is to be renamed with a dreamed up Welsh name (because the Council have been ordered by the WLB that all place names have to be Welsh) - when the proper name goes back to the Vikings or before.
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Here we go again:
"some fabricated idealised Welsh culture" (by the way the proper spelling is 'idealized').
What on earth are you talking about?!
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FiDafydd
In fact both spellings are correct - but with slightly different meanings.
From -
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/idealised
Thesaurus Legend: Synonyms Related Words Antonyms
Adj. 1. idealised - exalted to an ideal perfection or excellence
idealized
perfect - being complete of its kind and without defect or blemish; "a perfect circle"; "a perfect reproduction"; "perfect happiness"; "perfect manners"; "a perfect specimen"; "a perfect day"
Based on WordNet 3.0, Farlex clipart collection. © 2003-2008 Princeton University, Farlex Inc.
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Message 197....
He is talking about the absolute fact that there is NO sign of anything that could be called Cymraeg 'culture' to be seen outside of certain events, such as the Eisteddfod's and Urdd.
The streets are totally devoid of anything that could be described as Cymraeg 'culture'
I am prepared to bend to your version of the matter, but only if you can demonstrate just where and when one may witness, or observe, this 'culture'.
I do mean out in the general environment, not at one of the 'fabricated idealised cultural' events, of course.
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Today in The Times, Stephen Baylis proposed that Josiah Wedgwood saw the values of culture displayed through the thing's it makes.
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FiDafydd, # 197
idealized, (also -ise)
Oxford English Dictionary.
Not good form to criticise someone's spelling, particularly when you obviously do not have a good dictionary to hand.
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My, we have been busy! Apologies - it must be my inferior Welsh education showing me up again.
People were begging us to comment on the Penyberth incident - no comeback then? And no real attempt to answer 191 either ...
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Had a reply from the WLB yesterday, very polite.
"The Welsh Language Board's budget for the 2008-2009 financial year is £13.534m."
That's a lot of "gas" in a lot of homes in winter.
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Thank you Stonemason
"The Welsh Language Board's budget for the 2008-2009 financial year is ?13.534m."
I wonder what the Assemblies costs for all the translation and duplicate paperwork is?
Now;
Add to that the costs incurred by all the Community Town & County Councils to meet the requirements of the Legislation and the dictates of the WLB.
After all putting this nonsense into practice is all paid for out of the Rates, not by the WLB.
Not an insignificant amount of the money - all going to support "some fabricated idealised Welsh culture", which is in many cases "forced on individuals and communities against their wishes".
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Message 204 and others....
I have just received information about the change of status of the old Trevethin comprehensive in Pontypool, it is now a Ysgol Cymraeg .
The proposals are on the cards to increase the intake, and considering the higher numbers involved, will mean a massive increase in the bus arrangements, as most of the puplils will be bussed in from other parts of the area.
Trevethin school, is approached by one road, this is a very narrow road which enters the estate via either Hospital Road, a very awkward road to negiotiate by a bus, or via the approaches from Penygarn and subsequently St Cadocs before arriving at the Parish church.
On this second route it passes a infant school, at a very narrow section of road.
Either way, the increased bus movements will impact Pontypool town centre at critical times in the morning and evening because this way is the only route to access the Trevethin estate.
As I know of no plans to modify these roads, I would say that Torfaen are being somewhat lacking in their powers of common sense,. Nothing new there it would seem, but then again, I am told this is due to the pressures from the Assembly/WAG, with it's Cymraeg enforcement agenda.
I shall be attending the meeting at the Trevethin Church Hall site, on January the 14th, at 1.20 pm, whereupon I shall make a strenuous effort to get these proposed pupil increases put aside.
I suggest anyone with an interest in curtailing such pressures, also attend.
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ah Mapexx - truth outs. You are against Welsh medium education for even those who choose it for their kids. This has been interesting I must admit.
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Mapexx said .....
"I am told this is due to the pressures from the Assembly/WAG, with it's Cymraeg enforcement agenda."
Then Dewi_H , your .....
"ah Mapexx - truth outs."
..... is an attempt to tar Mapexx as anything other than voter who recognises overt pressure from Cardiff Bay to manipulate local events to suit it's agenda, this of course is an expected response from Nationalist elements in Wales.
The Union expects more as the year unfolds, no policy, just innuendo and unfounded accusation.
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Message 206....
Yes..., I am against the pressure from the Bay of Pigs that is enforcing the Cymraeg education progression into our local schools.
But, if you care to read, and make, at least a small, but serious attempt to understand the main body of my previous message, you would see the situation regarding increased bus arrangements are way beyond what the road system in the area can accommodate.
It is on that premise I offer resistance to the whole idea of increasing the pupil roster, not against the idea of a Cymraeg unit as such.
Not only that, but the town centre itself will be further stressed at critical times of the day.
Now, I will accept that your poor education, no doubt through the medium of Ysgol Cymraeg holds you back somewhat, but if this proposal was being touted to traverse YOUR own streets, allowing they carry the same restricted parameters as those in both Pontypool town centre, and Trevethin, then even your limited powers of comprehension would turn you into an instant NIMBY.
I admit the comment about the enforcement was not particularly germane to the body of the message, however, the decision to place a Cymraeg unit in Trevethin in the first place, was a numb-skull decision anyway, and so I feel the remarks were somewhat justified.
Message 207...
I am glad some others see the inherent problems as described by me in regards the Trevethin situation, not to forget that as a local resident, a taxpayer and voter, I am ENTITLED to pass my thoughts on the subject of the increased pupil count at Trevethin, as well as the Assembly/WAG enforcement campaign, to others in Wales.
Thanks Stoney.
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mapexx
... and the wish of local parents to provide a Welsh education - which they were probably denied themselves - to their children? How important is that?
Your constant carping at the standards of Welsh education shows you to be the bigot you are. I'm glad to say that the truth is the exact opposite. Perhaps bigotry derives from a monoglot education system.
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#209 FiDafydd wrote:
"Your constant carping at the standards of Welsh education shows you to be the bigot you are."
I don't bother to respond to his bigoted and near-racist rantings.
Drachenfyre, you make some excellent points @195
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I must protest about those lat two insane rants from those Cymraeg slanted twerps.
Please be so kind you two and explain where I have shown any antipathy to Welsh parental choice in education.
Or where I have EVER made scurrilous and antipathetic commentary re the language you seem to be fond of.
Let me clarify it for you. I am really getting sick of doing this, but here goes....
I am antipathetic to the PUBLIC funding the promotion of the language in areas where there is hardly any take up of it. Nor likely to be, despite the pressure being brought to bear on our local authorities.
I am antipathetic to the PUBLIC funding of dual language documentation being thrown at EVERY house in Wales, whether it is capable of being read in that house or not.
The cost of the waste in such practice is tremendous.
I am antipathetic to the devolved WAG and it's fellow organisation the Assembly. It is an unnecessary and very expensive third tier of governement that we can well do without.
To return to the language, and education subjects....
I do NOT say the language should be banned, or forced out, but what I do say is, as it seems to be of paramount importance to less than 1 in 8 of the population of Wales, and less than 1/10th % of the whole population of the UK, then those that wish to propmote it, and use it, should be responsible for it's upkeep, both in use and financially.
It should not fall onto the shoulders of the 50 or so millions who are being expected to pay for it, who do not, nor ever will, use it.
Education is vital, but when an agenda is set in motion to expand the language, of a very small minority, into a non compliant overwhelming majority, it is nothing short of INDOCTRINATION, at public expense.
That some parents wish to have their kids 'indoctrinated' is undenied, I do not wish to deny them the priviledge of force feeding their offspring with what, at best, can be called a second language, but at worst is nothing more than a total waste of time in a multitude of cases, as can be demonstrated by a visit to the school gates as the kids exit into their normal language environment, which of course is English.
In the majority of such cases, never to use the language again, until back in Ysgol, at the next session.
Taking you two, and anyone else siding with you, for what you seem, I would guess you are resident in areas that utilise the language on a frequent, if not permanent, basis; well I, and hundreds of thousands in the Anglo areas of Wales do
not live in such Cymraeg language dominated areas, and simply because we don't, we resent this incursion into our way of life, we resent the divisive nature of pressurising our kids to study, what to most, is a foreign, and certainly useless, language, taken in global terms.
No one wishes to prevent the attenndance of children into Ysgol Cymraeg, but many dDO wish to prevent the language being forced into the curricula opf schools that have no background in following such an agenda as is being promoted and promulgated by the WAG/Assembly.
Please be aware we resent OUR councils being told they must do this or that, we did not elect them to follow doctrinaire policies dreamt up by a bunch of nationalist carzies who seem to think there some any sort of value in separating Wales from the UK.
And, who are using this antique language as a weapon with which to accelarate their progarmmme of total devolvement.
I think you will soon discover that all of this will be overturned in the not too distant future, especially when the true cost of all this Cymro nonsense is opened up to the rest of the UK.
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Another intelligent response mapexx! -
"I must protest about those lat two insane rants from those Cymraeg slanted twerps."
As you have absolutely no idea of my academic achievements, it is clear therefore that it is its Welshness that annoys you. I pity you really.
And so, to answer your question, and as an example of where and when you
made an "antipathetic commentary re the language", I only have to refer back to your last but one comment on this topic :
"Now, I will accept that your poor education, no doubt through the medium of Ysgol Cymraeg holds you back somewhat"
No doubt, indeed.
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Could someone please enlighten me - why, if Wales is a bilingual country, the local Welsh-medium school, in this totally English-speaking area, has the Welsh language only on it's name board? and why do the pupils who attend the school appear to speak only English when they are in the school field or in the chip shop queue. The Welsh is not 'cool' obviously.
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FiDafydd #212
"it is clear therefore that it is its Welshness that annoys you"
How dare you suggest that because someone disagrees with forcing the Welsh language and the pseudo Welsh culture onto those don't want it - makes them anti Welsh.
Most Welsh people do not use the language, do not wish to use it, and do not regard its use as an indication of Welshness or otherwise.
However if you exclude the personal attacks (which should have been left out) "mapexx" post #211 sets out arguments which are valid, and represent the view of an increasing majority of Welsh people.
Until recently the language was regarded by most Welsh people with affection - sadly fewer now see it that way.
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Message 212....
You certainly do know how to twist a sentence to suit your own silly point of view.
The phrase used by me, was a direct response to your comments that made issue of my previous submission, in which I made absolutely NO antipathetic remarks about the language or the education under Ysgol Cymraeg medium.
Considering that you managed to read into my message things that did not appear, it was beholden on me to bring your apparent poor education to the front.
Then, when you and your compatriot Cymro again turned the debate towards claiming I show hatred and such against the language, and MY homeland, you were deservedly named as twerps, for the twerps you both are.
Obviously others can see where you are coming from in all of this, and it takes not a slight shift in imagination to realise that you like certain others are at the forefront of Plaid nationalist propaganda presentation, wrapped up as defending the indefensible.
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Message 214...
Westy, I feel you are unjustified in saying I made 'personal attacks' when considering those two declared that my commentary was bigoted, and that I am a bigot.
Not only that, but one actually stated my comments are 'racist'.
I am entitled to give like for like am I not?
Allowing their comments were totally uncalled for, never mind absolutely incorrect, I believe have every right to call their educational standard into question.
Racist indeed, how can comments regarding a ' local' language, or for that matter, even if antipathetic, which my comments certainly were not, towards the Welsh people of whom I am one, be classed as racist when there is no ' race ' issue in the frame of reference?
Both those comments deserved a severe and insulting rejoinder, as I am sure you will agree, in revisiting their messages.
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Ysgol Cymraeg medium??? Does every Ysgol Cymraeg (sic) have a ghost? I think we should be told.Can they foretell the future?
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Now let me see.
He's a bigot, she's a bigot, I'm a bigot, you're a bigot, they're bigots and we're bigots.
He's a racist, she's a racist, I'm a racist, you're a racist, they're racists and we're racists.
Now that we've got the customary insults out of the way is there any chance of a debate wherein these two descriptions are not used as a standard response to almost every posting?
Try it, it might be fun.
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re 217 . I once heard a story about a school in North Wales which was designated as a 'Welsh-medium school ' . A child was enrolled at the school, his parents having arrived shortly beforehand from England. The parents complained after a while that all the lessons were in Welsh, and the somewhat bemused headmaster patiently explained to them what
the school's purpose was . The poor parents had assumed that the word 'medium' corresponded to the word 'middle ' used in some quarters for , say , 11- 14 education . A hasty retreat followed , but hopefully the child partook of the excellent education on offer.
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Crikey. The ancient Celts liked infinite spiral designs - if the Tardis would bring some of them to this debate they'd feel totally at home.
This is not an intelligent discussion; for the most part it's a blustery, bigoted shouting choir. It feels like a bar near closing time, with neither the joy of having a whiskey in front of you nor the true joy of being able to give your interlocutor a smack in the eye (which would be more of a rational response than many we see here).
It's not a bar too many people would want to visit twice, either - dominated by an opinionated few uninterested in listening to their neighbours (or even, in many cases, acknowledging that their neighbours have a right to speak... at least not in their own language).
These bullies consider themselves to be "the majority" and that somehow makes their opinions correct. As it happens, here are the statistics for this 'discussion' so far.
There have been 219 contributions and 31 speakers.
Of these 31, of those who have expressed what I can determine to be an unambiguous opinion on the main issue cycling around (i.e. whether Welsh deserves respect or not [it's a shame to have to put it like that, but that's the bottom line here, in the ugly way the discussion has been continued]), the 'votes' break down as follows:
No (anti-Welsh): 11
Yes (not anti-Welsh): 13
Unclear (talked about something else): 7
From the exercise of following this discussion I'd like to share two conclusions.:
i) the self-declared "majority" actually seem to be in the minority. This is frankly not surprising. If one considers any number of important ethical issues one generally finds that human beings are able to think beyond their own narrowly-defined sphere of self-interest to realise a greater ethical and moral responsibility (e.g. to the environment, be it cultural or natural). This is substantiated by opinion polls in the streets, too, where a majority is consistently in favour of Welsh-medium education and so on. Again, this is not surprising once the facts are considered.
ii) What I have here termed the "No" side of the debate is characterised by an abusive rudeness and an unwillingness to engage in rational discussion. There is blatant misrepresentation (cf. the persistent use of statements by the Welsh Language Society (a pressure group with absolutely no consitutional influence) as if these constituted party policy). There is an refusal to engage with undesired facts (cf. the way Drachenfyre's post at #195 was simply ignored). This is all wrapped up in a discourse of mis-applied terms ('nationalist', 'nazi', 'minority', 'social engineering') which doesn't merely _verge on_ but leaps right into the realms of untruth and dissimilation.
If anybody else is considering entering this pub, I advise you to drink your pint away from the bar and not to look the locals in the eye, lest you get a glass in it. Or, alternatively, leave for more congenial discussion, which I shall now do.
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Oh, I should give the figures in the detail I have them.
Here are the contributors and the number of their contributions (I've included posts which were removed, since they are included also in the full count). I understand that the "abstainers" will have their opinion, but I think I'm right in not wishing to assume this from the contributions posted here. Each slash next to a name signifies a single contribution to the discussion following entry into the discussion.
Abstaining: 7
Bluesnik/
JosephFromNantymoel
Wil_CC
lordBeddGelert//
confusus
aolden
SamTheCentipede
lostmanofgwent
Yes: 13
Brynt41 ///////////////
Daverodway
Hogygog///////////////////
FiDafydd////////
DanDydin/
Lyn_Thomas
Osian/
Dewi_H//////
Dai7900/
Aberalbert
Drachenfyre/////////
Just1nd///////
Bostoniwr//
No: 11
Cardiffian2008//////
TheStonemason /////////////////////////////
Noah_sembly /////////////
Mapexx/////////////
Gonoph///
West-Wales/////////////
Snoutsintrough//
Legendaryavocet////////////////////
Notonationalism///////////
Nomorepowers///
Monmouthisenglish//
I only counted once - there may be a small margin of error.
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(apologies if I've misassigned anybody - I'm sure you'll correct me!)
oh, and one more thing (sorry - I was supposed to be going: consider this my shout from the pavement) :)
isn't it ironic that a major part of the argument about the lack of relevance of Welsh is that it's not used anywhere, but the moment anybody tries to speak it (i.e. to post a comment in it), it's silenced. Not surprising that people get the wrong idea concerning how much Welsh is used. Sad from so many perspectives.
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Bostoniwr, very nice list of statistics, but analysis a bit shaky.
To reiterate, I am not anti-Welsh, I am Welsh. However, we should not be expected to conform to the WAG's idea of ‘Welshness’. We are a diverse country and people, and our differences should be respected. The language should be a matter of choice in schools, and the curriculum should be a matter for academics. The enforcement of the language and 'culture' in English-speaking areas is causing alienation, and we resent the fact that our taxes are being inappropriatetly used. We feel that current policies are causing us to underachieve economically and educationally and we are disadvantaged in our healthcare delivery, as clearly shown when our statistics are compared with those of our counterparts in the rest of the UK. Finally, I was born in Monmouthshire, and see no reason why politicians should seek to change it to a watered-down Gwynedd. My message to them - leave us alone.
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Re. 223
Of course, the ironic thing here is that it was Westminster who made Welsh a subject to be taught in all schools in Wales, and even more ironically by the Tories ( so admire by Snoutsin trough for one!). Westminster had centuries to make the Welsh a prosperous nation, and failed miserably. Give the National Assembly a chance - and more powers to do the job properly!
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Message 224...
"Westminster had centuries to make the Welsh a prosperous nation"???
Two things,
first... The Welsh is NOT a nation.( Nor is Wales to be strictly correct)
Second... Wales is too disparate a region to be 'made' prosperous, as a region of the UK it must take it's chances with the other regions.
The explanation for that is this,
...apart from a band of industrialised areas in both south east and north east, which to all intents and purposes in relatively affluent times ARE prosperous, the hinterlands are far to remote and disjointed to be prosperous on their own.
That is why they are subsidised by the central government.
Under the terms of a idealised Wales, flying independantly on it's own in the big wide pond of world economics, it would be incumbent on the north east, and south/ south east to take on that mantle of subsidy.
Unfortunately, although those two main regions are affluent in themselves, there is not enough collateral to subsidise the rural areas.
They would not be able to stand alone, ergo, the impracticality of a separated Wales.
Wales therefore, unlike many iof the examples put forward by supporters of that idea, is far too dispararte a region to be successful, i total terms, without the support/subsidies from our next door neighbour.
This is why the Assembly/WAG is a waste of time, space and most importantly, funding.
Funding that, no matter how much it gets, and can throw at projects, because of the disparate nature of Wales in toto, the money simply disappears into limbo. Evidence of it's waste can bee seen in projects such as the recent 2 millions thrown at preserving anything with the name of Owain Glyndwr, no matter how tenuously, attached.
Plus another 4.3 Millions spent on 'consultancy fees over the last year is yet another example of the profligacy of the Bay of Pigs.
I will NOT give the Assembly/WAG a chance, for the simple reason it is a unwelcome guest at a very strictly budgetted party, and as such, should be evicted forthwith.
More powers?, not likely, what they have already should be taken away.
Our local authorities are more than capable of running Wales, without that shower of wasters getting in their way.
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#223 legendaryavocet wrote:
"The (Welsh) language should be a matter of choice in schools, and the curriculum should be a matter for academics....
The enforcement of the language and 'culture' in English-speaking areas is causing alienation, and we resent the fact that our taxes are being inappropriatetly used. We feel that current policies are causing us to underachieve economically and educationally.."
In the Republic of Ireland, Gaelic is taught in all schools. It is state policy. A higher level of proficiency in the language is required of all pupils there.
The Irish economy is far stronger, their GDP per head higher. It is ranked 7th in the world as compared to the UK at 14th.
On what basis therefore can you claim economic underachievement in Wales resulting from language and cultural policies? You need to give evidence for your bigoted and uninformed opinions. Wales is far, far poorer than the Irish Republic. Its economy stagnant, and unemployment just about the highest in the UK, and there's much worse to come.
Wales is unable to do much, if anything, to safeguard or develop its economy. Its controlled by Westminster, so blame Thatcher, Blair and Brown for the mess this country is in and has been in for many decades. Not one of these people is Welsh, and to put it frankly they don't give a toss for Wales when push comes to shove. What matters is 'middle England' where the New Labour and Tory votes come from to give them power.
What is now the Irish Republic was in the economic doldrums when it was under British rule. It was desperately poor there. Their language and culture was held in disdain. The Irish people have a pride in their language and don't talk it down as some cranks do to Welsh on here. The Irish language was banned from the media by the Unionists until relatively recently in Northern Ireland - that's what it means to be British and 'unionist'.
Moreover, you are fond of using 'we' when you really mean 'I'. Let others speak for themselves, don't claim to speak for them.
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Re 225
We'll never agree on this, but I will insist that I am the optimist. I will always believe in what is possible.
Out of interest, can I ask you one question? Were you honestly content with the way we were ruled pre-referendum? And if not, what changes would you have made to that system of government?
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Bostoniwr
#220
"This is not an intelligent discussion; for the most part it's a blustery, bigoted shouting choir."
I agree with that comment - and would add that it is fueled by gross misrepresentation of what various posters are saying.
From your #220
1/
"an unambiguous opinion on the main issue cycling around (i.e. whether Welsh deserves respect or not "
That is seriously untrue- No one is saying the Welsh Language does not deserve respect.
The argument is about whether or not Welsh language and unwanted cultural changes should be forced on individuals and communities against their will.
2/
"There is blatant misrepresentation (cf. the persistent use of statements by the Welsh Language Society (a pressure group with absolutely no constitutional influence)"
This again is untrue - all statements about what is being forced on individuals and communities are taken from the WLAct 1993 or the WLB instructions currently being enforced.
Agreed there is speculation regarding the detail of the proposed LCO - that still has to be made public - but what is true is that there is concern about the impact of that act on private businesses in Wales.
3/
"This is substantiated by opinion polls in the streets, too, where a majority is consistently in favour of Welsh-medium education"
Decidedly not so, in this area, or as far as I can establish across Wales, - most people agree (including myself) that if Parents want their children educated in Welsh that option should be available.
But Welsh should NOT be forced on those who don't want it.
4/
Drachenfyre's post at #195 - was simply an attempt to explain Plaids position in the 1930-40's fair enough - except in so far as the current leadership view the actions of those days. It is unimportant.
However Plaid's support for current and proposed totalitarian legislation is important and that's what this discussion is about.
5/
"These bullies consider themselves to be "the majority""
Just who are the "bullies" here, - those who are being forced, or those doing the forcing.
If someone says you are not doing that to me - are they a Bully.
I for one am heartily sick of being labeled Anti Welsh because I disagree with totalitarian legislation that forces a language and alien culture on individuals and communities who simply don't want it.
(Alien - many parts of Wales have an indigenous culture which is very different from the WLB ideal)
You have counted the posts here in some detail - on that basis you are saying that because its 11 to 13 we should shut up and submit.
The competing views are very divisive, (made more so by deliberate misrepresentation and insults)
Serious damage has already been done to the way Welsh is perceived in some areas.
The outcome of the machinations on the Language LCO is very important - if things are not handled with sensitivity, the resulting public dismay could easily spell the end for the WAG and Assembly.
Currently the 1993 act and the actions of the WLB in enforcing it, are probably the most important of several factors that are destroying the credibility of the WAG.
A Referendum now would be against granting further powers to the Assembly, and probably be in favour of dissolution by some 70 to 30%.
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re: 225
"first... The Welsh is NOT a nation"-Mapexx
Authors John Davies and Gwyn A. Williams, among others, argue the origin of the "Welsh nation" can be traced to the late 4th and early 5th centuries, following the Roman withdrawal from Britain- (John Davies, a History of Wales, page)
According to the 2001/02 Labour Force Survey (the only survay to ask the question about Welshness recorded by the NSO), 87 per cent of residents born in Wales claimed Welsh ethnic identity.
* Respondents in the local authority areas of Gwynedd, Ceredigion, Carmarthenshire, and Merthyr Tydfil each returned results of between 91 and 93 per cent claiming Welsh ethnicity, of those born in Wales.
* Neath Port Talbot, Bridgend, Rhondda Cynon Taff, returned results 88-91 per cent of Wales-born respondents claiming Welsh ethnicity.
* Powys, Anglesey, Denbighshire, Caerphilly, and the Vale of Glamorgan returned results of 86-88 per cent of respondents born in Wales claiming Welsh ethnicity.
Pembrokeshire, Swansea, Cardiff, Newport, Torfaen, Blaenau Gwent, Conwy, Flintshire, and Wrexham returned results of 78-86 per cent of those born in Wales claiming Welsh ethnicity.
According to the survey, when factoring non-Wales born residents, 67 per cent of those surveyed claimed Welsh or Welsh-British (rather than British, English or other) ethnic identity. This reflects a residential population which includes 30 per cent born outside of Wales. The survey, from the Office for National Statistics, identified the remaining 33 per cent of respondents as 'Not Welsh'.
The question of ethnicity/nationality was not asked in the last UK census, even though it was in Scotland. The Scottish parliament of the day insisted that respondants in Scotland be able to check weather or not they felt themselves to be part of the Scottish nation, with 88.11% claimed Scottish ethnicity.
The next census will have the question on it weather or not one is Welsh or not.
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brynt41
#226
"In the Republic of Ireland, Gaelic is taught in all schools. It is state policy. A higher level of proficiency in the language is required of all pupils there.
The Irish economy is far stronger, their GDP per head higher. It is ranked 7th in the world as compared to the UK at 14th."
There is absolutely no connection.
The current strength of the Irish economy is due entirely to the European Objective One Investment.
This has now been withdrawn and the Irish Economy is contracting, partly due to Global Credit issues - It will be interesting to see what things are like in 5 years time.
Current trends are not optimistic.
Wales also received Objective One money.
The whole thing was tangled up with excessive red tape and bureaucracy, all set up by WAG to ensure central control.
The money was wasted on public projects now failing because long term support was not put in place, or are effectively unused.
The much needed infrastructure developments - Road, Rail, etc. just did not happen - Virtually nothing went into wealth generation projects.
The Irish made sure their infrastructure and wealth generators had first call and had very loose rules.
You accuse legendaryavocet
"your bigoted and uninformed opinions"
Bigot - a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own.
I suggest it is you that are guilty of intolerance - because you are unable to accept that others have a right to object to having your prejudices forced on them.
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#228 West-Wales wrote:
"I disagree with totalitarian legislation that forces a language and alien culture on individuals and communities who simply don't want it."
An 'alien' language and culture has been forced on Wales for more than 150 years. Native speakers have declined from more that 50% to 21% in less than a century, mostly through inward migration, and a total lack of sensitivity towards the Welsh language by government.
If your position was taken to its logical conclusion, then Welsh would at best be confined to the numbers who speak it at present and to those areas in Wales where it is already spoken by a significant percentage of the population. Nothing would be done to arrest its decline or to increase its growth. It is where it is today partly because of attitudes such as yours.
Thankfully other societies and nations which have power to make their own decisions, unlike Wales, value their native language(s) and culture(s), as I indicated above regarding the RoI (#226). Gaelic's position in Ireland was weak before the Republic was founded, but its government's policies has resulted in the language being given a position of respect and prominence. Its the RoI's first language, before English, although its still a minority language (just) in numerical terms. Bear in mind that the RoI is a democratic country and its government's linguistic policies have popular support.
Contrast the treatment of Gaelic in N. Ireland, where for 80 years it was treated with contempt by the Unionist and Westminster authorities.
No-one has been forced to learn Welsh. Its taught in the schools of Wales to non-Welsh-speaking pupils as a second language, as is French, German or Spanish. It is the native language of the country in which our children live. Yet you object to that. Only a small minority of parents object to it being taught. The main problem is that its teaching generally has been ineffective. Education athorities have not had the resources to make it more effective so that students/people can learn to speak the language, and it becomes their own.
What you are saying is, in effect, "I can't speak Welsh, I don't want to learn Welsh, I don't want my children learning Welsh. Welsh is useless to me and to them. The community I live in must never learn Welsh, it can't be countenanced".
The people of Wales were unable to stem the tide of English because they had no power, at all, to do so, and so the language is in the desperately weak position it is today. You want it at best to stay there. Your comments make a pretence of balance, but your attitude indicates where you really stand.
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Thank you -Drachenfyre- you confirm my position, most people in Wales regard themselves as Welsh, and like me are proud to be Welsh.
But that does not mean most Welsh people support forcing Welsh and an alien Welsh culture on individuals and communities that don't want it.
Nor does objecting to having the Welsh language forced on them does not make them anti Welsh.
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Message 229....
I don't care what some very biased writers have written, Wales is simply a region of the UK. IT is not nation, not even under the terms applied to the RedAmerindians, where it was usual to refer to the various tribal divisions as 'nations' ...the Sioux nation', the Blackfoot 'nation' and so on.
Just because some fool made an error and asked what the 'ethnic' background was in certain parts of Wales does not confer a distinct ethnicity on those areas or people who live in them.
We have been over this ground before, but it is worth repeating as it is obvious that you have either not seen the previous commentary, or have chose to hope we have forgotten it.
There is NO absolutely NO difference in either ethnicity or CULTURE, between the people of Wales, the Northeast, South east, London, Manchester, York or any other part of the UK.
Apart from some artificial invented 'culture as represented by modern Eisteddfod and Urdd, the Welsh all subscribe to the modern western cultural represented across the length and breadth of Britain, they watch the same TV, go to the same sorts of pubs and clubs, cheer the same sort of teams playing the same sort of sports no matter where you live, or pass through, in Britain.
OK, so there are a few, and a very few at that, who tend to watch S4C, which is so heavily subsidised it should be part of the Royal Mint, maybe a very few listen to radio Cymru also, so what, they hardly impact on either the viewing figures, or the invisible culture you all bang on about. But that is the separate matter of language option. It changes things not at all.
You can quote as many erudite writers as you like, from past or present, but it makes not one bit of difference to the FACTS that are extant today. Wales, the Wales you seem to think is ,or should be, called Cymru, is non existent except in the minds of a few romanticists, with nationalistic tendencies.
Wales a nation? don't be so infantile and way off course.
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Brynt41
#228
I agree with some of what you say;
According to the 1911 census, out of a population of just under 2.5 million, 43.5% of the total population of Wales spoke Welsh as a primary language. This was a decrease from the 1891 census with 54.4% speaking welsh out of a population of 1.5 million.
As you point out that was due primarily to inward migration, and English migrants seldom learnt Welsh.
You say "An 'alien' language and culture has been forced on Wales for more than 150 years. " - not in Pembrokeshire, here we have been English speaking for 900 years, and have a rich culture based around the Pembrokeshire Language which is very old and very different from Plaid's idealised Welsh.
You say "No-one has been forced to learn Welsh." - that is not true Welsh is compulsory in all Welsh schools, if you want to learn another language you cannot drop Welsh.
You seem regard compulsion to force Welsh Language and some idealised Welsh culture on communities against their wishes as being the right thing to do - I disagree.
Welsh is not now the Native Language of Wales, nor is it a language which has other than cultural use - outside Wales it is of no value.
In Wales everyone understands English, less than 25% understand Welsh with even less fully fluent, and fewer able to read or write the language.
However the Welsh Language is important there is a rich Literary, musical and religious heritage which needs to be saved and celebrated.
We disagree fundamentally on the means to achieve that - The current totalitarian legislative approach is damaging the language and how the culture is viewed.
Consent always works better than conflict
And lastly please do not missrepresent me,
I am not saying;
"I can't speak Welsh, I don't want to learn Welsh, I don't want my children learning Welsh. Welsh is useless to me and to them. The community I live in must never learn Welsh, it can't be countenanced".
What I am saying is;
"I can't speak Welsh, I don't want to learn Welsh, -
If my children want to learn Welsh I will support and help them. -
Welsh and the Welsh culture is not part of the community in which I live. I think the ancient culture here is worth preserving. That is up to the community and they must be free to make their own choices. -
Where I really stand is that I strongly oppose enforcement of either Language, Culture or some ethnic dream on individuals or communities that do not want it.
While I understand and to some extent sympathise with the motives of those who propose enforcement - it is against all my ideals of liberty and justice.
There has to be a better way.
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Re 233
The oracle has spoken. How dare we think for ourselves, especially if we disagree with him.
He knows what he thinks, I know what I think.
The vehemence is so fiercely defensive - methinks he doth protest too much ...
To have a distinct Welsh culture, is mapexx saying that we have to go round wearing silly hats! We'll make do with talking, working, playing, singing, writing poetry (all year round, not just at the Eisteddfod, thank you!), arguing and even making love in our own language if that's OK with you - no, sorry, even if it's not OK with you.
Are you saying that the UK and the USA are one and the same because the cultures you relate to are so similar?
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Josiah Wedgwood believed that the .....
"values of any culture can be discerned in the quality of things it makes".
Yet comments above indicate that language is considered the culture by some, whereas it is what is constructed by language that is the culture, a poem, the song and the book, and much more.
Language becomes an obstacle to cultural development where it's use is the prerogative of the minority, the poem that reflects the people of Swansea were it written using French would not expand our culture except with the French speaker, whereas a poem written by Dylan Thomas, for example 'Poem in October' found in his Collected Poems, can be enjoyed by every person in Wales, including brynt41, then, our culture is exported throughout the world as an international celebration of our people, not the language, the content, the "thing" as Josiah Wedgwood would describe it.
I am sorry FiDafydd, but insisting on the Welsh language is not the best way to expand our culture. Look to the children when they leave the school gate.
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Just for the sake of clarity, could someone please explain this 'Welsh Culture', which seems to be at the centre of this debate.
I have lived in Wales all my life and, apart from the St. David's Day concert in school, have yet to experience any specific 'culture' that is significantly different from the everyday British 'culture'.
Please help.
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#234 West-Wales wrote:
"Welsh and the Welsh culture is not part of the community in which I live. I think the ancient culture here is worth preserving. That is up to the community and they must be free to make their own choices."
Here we have it. The fundamental inconsistency in your position.
Let's replace 'Welsh' with 'English' and read it again:
"English and the English culture is not part of the community in which I live. I think the ancient culture here is worth preserving. That is up to the community and they must be free to make their own choices."
The Welsh language and the Welsh culture was treated in the way that you claim the culture of your community in S. Pembrokeshire is being treated.
What you are saying is, "Its ok as long as it happens to people of a different culture to mine, but mine is sacrosanct, let no-one interfere with it".
You seem unable to empathise with others. I have sympathy with you and the feelings of the community you live in, if your views truly represent theirs, simply because the community I live in has suffered the very things you say you want your community to avoid.
It is a fact that school-children are taught Welsh to age 16. That was not so before before 1993, I understand. Students were then able to drop Welsh at the end of their 3rd year of secondary education. That change took place long before the existence of the Assembly, and under a Tory government.
I didn't want to study Welsh to 'O' level. I wasn't particularly interested in the subject at school, even though it was my first language. Its still the language I think in, although because of my professional career, I'm far more fluent in English now. But with increasing age, I realise the value of my native language. Its far more than simply a method of communicating, it does touch the soul. I value being bi-lingual, as it adds so much more to life (I also speak some German, and my knowledge of Welsh was helpful in learning it).
The last thing I would want is to force anyone to learn anything they don't want. There were subjects at school I detested. This is a democracy, of sorts, so you can't blame Plaid, the Welsh Language Society, etc, because they are minorities, for the fact that there is an element of compulsion in schools, but that is what democratically elected UK government(s) have ordained.
You might feel differently if Welsh teaching was effective enough so that your children or grandchildren emerged at 16 with an useful knowledge of Welsh which allowed them to converse in it. At nursery age, children pick up languages easily, there appears to be no real limit to that ability, as has been shown in places like Switzerland.
I'm afraid that whatever arguments or facts are put to you, your position on it is fixed. That's the impression you give.
Its a bit like Blair saying 'We have to invade Iraq to destroy the WMD'. When it was shown that there was no evidence of WMD he said, "We have to invade Iraq to get rid of that nasty Saddam"... and so on. The real truth was that they were going to invade Iraq whatever facts emerged, because Bush wanted to control its oil reserves. (And the US had done just that, through the Oil Law forced through the Iraqi Parliament).
To put it bluntly... I think you're essentially anti-Welsh, despite your protestations. You knock down whatever is facts are put to you.
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You are correct gonoph,
It's all our shared culture, no matter what part of the UK you originate from or reside at.
Sometimes it's an illusion, an ever changing illusion, other times it is borrowed from another part of the world, something like the simpsons.
It becomes imperative, urgent and permanent if you are a politician needing a platform. Often it is an lie, a fable invented to support outlandish aspirations, unwanted by most, an intrusion at best, oppressive .....
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Bilingualism gives you two cultures to pick and choose from. I like reading biographical and factual Welsh books, but I don't like poetry. I like Welsh and English rock music, but I hate 'Cerdd-dant' festivals, eisteddfods and Welsh hymns. I respond to blogs in both Welsh and English. I can't stand rugby, I prefer football, golf and cricket.
People , who at first sight, might be completely philistine and uncouth , might in fact be part of a culture which you cannot recognize.
Right, tht's it. My wife has complained that I communicate more with strangers than with her (In any language) . End of contributions.
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Message 238....
Quote from the numbered message...
"Its a bit like Blair saying 'We have to invade Iraq to destroy the WMD'. When it was shown that there was no evidence of WMD he said, "We have to invade Iraq to get rid of that nasty Saddam"... and so on. The real truth was that they were going to invade Iraq whatever facts emerged, because Bush wanted to control its oil reserves".
....Unquote
Maybe it's a bit like the leader of Plaid saying we have to invade the Anglo schools to destroy the English element.
Then it was shown there was no English 'element' as that was the NORMAL element of those schools in those areas.
We have to invade the Anglo areas, to get rid of the nasty English.
The real truth is we are invading the English areas because we Plaid led nationalists wish to control those areas.
You are again playing the emotive card pal, you do not seem to realise the trap you are setting for yourself and your fellow Cymro in these sleight of hand maneuvers.
Unlike Saddam's Iraq, the Anglo areas of Wales have no particular 'dictatorial' leader to unseat., But what they have got is a massive majority that do not subscribe to your fanciful ideas for the future of OUR homelands.
You lot choose to use the language as a weapon to beat us into submission, unfortunately for you all, it does not go bang and blow up houses like some of the more rabid amongst you used to do on occasion, so the potential for success is about the same as that for the invading forces in Iraq, without the presence of Saddam or his equivalent.
There are no sectarian gangs to oppose one another to your advantage, just 80% of the population who are NOT in the Cymro camp.
Carry on regardles of the possibility you will meet opposition, and then it will come up and slap you in the face, not unexpectedly, as I see it.
You will go about destroying your own language, and any fairly invisible culture along with it.
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WestWales (#228)
1/ Your: “No one is saying the Welsh Language does not deserve respect.”
I refer you to (just from the first part of the thread):
#10 (Noah_sembly): “those in Wales jabbering away in their own little language” and “Thankfully I have now all but forgotten Welsh”
#20 (id.): “Welsh 'nonsense' [words]”
#40 (mapexx): “ this antique language”
#91 (Noah_sembly): “the failing Welsh language”
#107 (Snoutsintrough): “bilingual mediocrities many of whom couldnt find work except in "mickey mouse" ventures such as S4C which is watched by about two people.”
#114 (West-wales): teaching Welsh (and about Welsh) in schools is “brainwashing of children”
2/ Your: ”all statements about what is being forced on individuals and communities are taken from the WLAct 1993 or the WLB instructions currently being enforced.”
See, ond this kind of use of quotation of Cymdeithas yr Iaith: #19, #61 and specifically #143
3/ Your “in this area, or as far as I can establish across Wales, - most people agree (including myself) that if Parents want their children educated in Welsh that option should be available. But Welsh should NOT be forced on those who don't want it.”
All this talk of “forcing” and “genetic engineering” is where the argument wears thin, and where the rhetoric proves its contradictions. You starts by talking about “children [being] educated in Welsh” and then switch to talk about the “forc[ing]” of Welsh on “those who don’t want it” as if poor little monoglot English children are being forced to spend their entire school lives in a state of an English Not. This is manifestly untrue; as far as I know, English-medium education is guaranteed. And your claim to speak for the entire population “across Wales” is surely hyperbolic.
4/ Your: “Plaid's support for current and proposed totalitarian legislation is important. [...] [T]otalitarian legislation that forces a language and alien culture on individuals and communities who simply don’t want it.”
This – need it be said? – is simply another example of your excessive and overblown rhetoric: “totalitarian”, coupled with the “nazi”, “genetic modification”, “brainwashing”, etc. of so many of these unsubstantiated claims on this thread. You define “alien” by reference to “indigenous culture which is very different from the WLB ideal”, and in this you of course have a point, i.e. that there must be flexibility and sensitivity for the different cultural and linguistic make-up; however your use of the word “indigenous” probably applies to only a very, very small part of Wales, in contrast to the mass of the country where English language hegemony is a very recent phenomenon.
5/ Your: “You have counted the posts here in some detail - on that basis you are saying that because its 11 to 13 we should shut up and submit.”
Absolutely not – the only point I wish to make using these figures is that this talk of ‘majorities’ and ‘minorities’ is pointless. Minority opinions should always be considered fairly. Our discussions here, however, concern something far greater and far more important than individual opinions, no matter how many people are on which side.
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#234 West-wales
"the Pembrokeshire Language which is very old and very different from Plaid's idealised Welsh."
three questions:
i) what is this "Pembrokeshire Language"? do you mean one of the local dialects (either English or Welsh)?
ii) what is Plaid Cymru's "idealised Welsh"? some details, please (with sources if at all possible).
iii) perhaps this is connected with the WLB's "ideal" culture (your #228)?
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Mapexx #241
Beneath contempt.
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Bostoniwr ,
The Welsh language is not a cultural attribute, neither are the English or German languages.
The WAG and WLB are trying, to create a schism between Wales and the remainder of the UK through the use of language, a culture of difference.
The question is why, because as succinctly put by gonoph at #237 .....
"..... have yet to experience any specific 'culture' that is significantly different from the everyday British 'culture'."
Culture is a shared belief/experience across the whole population, notice that no proposition by Bostoniwr, or other commentators of his/her ilk, has been put as to what is Welsh culture.
The non-conformist movement is probably the last real cultural movement in Wales, and that was not wholly accepted by the population and lasted only a short time.
"Bob the Builder" is probably as close to culture as you might find in these isles, dubbed with Welsh or not.
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Message 244...
NO, it is you that is totally contemptuous, I am well above that.
It is not I that supports the break up of the United Kingdom, nor I that perpetually tries to make Wales into something it is not, nor never will be by the way these rabid language nuts perform, nor is it I that rides roughshod over the will of the majority, by pressurising local authority to bring in unnecessary language practices, that in REAL terms belong in the field of 'those that want it' should fund it themselves.
It is not I that makes outrageous claims for a none existent 'culture' that is so strong and vibrant it cannot be detected outside of the Maes.
Someone has just claimed he does his culture in poetry and song, well and good for him, but just because he does it in Cymraeg does not make it any more a culture than any other song and poetry in any other language.
Just because he does it in Wales, and by doing so thinks he is being 'cultured' or 'cultural'. Laughable if it were not so childish.
The true culture of Wales is in common with the rest of the UK, apart from a few folksy song and dance routines that prevail, all else is identical. TV, Pub. Club. sports, no matter what, Wales can show nothing of note that places it, culturally, outside the box.
I would be just as scathing of this sort of claim if the Morris dancing fraternity commenced every communication by stating they represent English 'culture'.
IT all comes down to one major factor, and that is WE have embraced the 'new' and to all intents and purposes cast aside the 'old'. I do not wish to disparage the efforts of a very few who wish to retain the 'old' but to do it in the face of the overwhelming odds against them, by means of Politically warped legislation, is going a step or two too far for most people, as those so engaged will find out to their cost in the near future.
You are no more than the steam train buffs in that respect, fighting an uphill battle for funding, they however do not get the whole taxpaying base to pay for their hobby and peccadilo's. So why should that be the case for the retention of what you see as your invisible 'culture', and yes, visible language.
By all means keep your 'old' language, and any perceived customary 'culture', but do it by persuasion, not by the methods presently being employed, which is the route to annihilation of both language, and whatever else you feel you possess.
NOw there is nothing that can be classed as contempt in that, but I fully expect another tirade of nationalistic Plaid designed and structured rebuffal by return.
Go ahead, you only serve to show your bias.
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It is morally unacceptable, in these times of enonomic difficulty that we should all have to subsidise, through our taxes, the nation-building, aggressive promotion of language, and 'culture', only desired by a few.
WAG's misguided spending priorities have resulted in Wales' declining standards in the Economy, Education and the NHS, when figures are compared with the rest of the United Kingdom.
Perhaps the medal cymru should be awarded to the guru who attempts to spin the 'feel good factor' ad nauseam. Full marks for trying, Rhodri.
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Re: #23
Apex: Those “Very biased writers” you rail against are the Office for National Statistics (ONS), the executive office of the UK Statistics Authority, a non-ministerial department which reports directly to the Parliament of the United Kingdom.
If you have issues with their collection techniques, then you need to take it up with them, and they are all based in England. This is the same organization which omitted a Welsh tick box in Wales, while allowing one for Scotland.
Go figure.
The use of the term ‘Red Amerindians’ is down right racist here in America, though I understand some in the older generations in other countries retain its usage. In the US, we prefer Native Americans, or American Indians, or the First Nations in Canada.
*rolls eyes*
I’m really through “debating” with you Mapexx; you demonstrate your lack of knowledge and your prejudices with every rant, using hyped-up rhetoric which is completely outside the norm. It is surprising it gets through the moderators.
I've shown your post to many here, and they can not help but laugh at the insecurities demonstrated.
I think you use such abusive languages here because you can’t use it in your own community for fear of what your neighbors… and maybe family… may think. Good luck with your inner demons there; I have already intimated what I do with family like that.
You may continue to spout your hateful speeches to those willing to listen to you. I have shown how already you misused historical accuracy in your rants.
In the mean time, the majority of people in Wales see the benefit of contributing further to the development and support of the Welsh language.
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Post 246 ...
That's it for me I'm afraid. Any thoughts I may have had that a sensible debate was possible have gone. The sinister generalizations and constant attacks on a culture that he doesn't even believe exists! The belief that time's up for the language because it is old??!! Isn't English rather an old language as well? But most of all, an inability to accept the merest possibility that somebody else might be right sometimes.
"Wales a nation? don't be so infantile and way off course."
- is just one example of his lack of debating skills.
I have tried asking courteous, serious questions e.g. 227 and 235, but mapexx was either unwilling or unable to answer. So what's the point?
I almost feel bullied by some who have lost the capacity to actually think and even occasionally to question themselves.
No doubt I will be attacked for cowardice or for being precious, so be it ...
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Message 248....
Typically for an American who has great command of written English, but lacks the mental wherewithall to comprehend what he reads, he failsin his total inability to understand when someone, who is British, actually composes, and enters written matter, in a correct, and understandable form.
I am well aware that the current practice is to refer to the Redskin, (('orrible expression I know) as Native Americans, but the term I used was extant at the time when the Native Americans were being referred to as 'nations' in common parlance.
Whatever terms are 'racist' in America is just not the case here, and as this is a British/Welsh blog, I think it a bit rich for an American to come onto the blog and take issue over what is simply a descriptive term that was once used far more in America than it ever was here.
I wou,d stand up to you in the knowledge stakes at any time, you demonstrate not only a lack of comprehension, but also a high degree of trans Atlantic nastiness , a quite common trait in certain sectors of the Anti Brit element in the USA. For that read anti English.
I make NO hateful speeches about either MY HOMELAND, which you cannot make claim for, even if you originated here, as being an escapee you would have forsaken your heritage, nor the language, which I constantly support, as long as it does not rely on the whole British tax base to fund it's promotion .
If America wishes to allow it's total tax base to support Native American, Inuit, or any other deprived 'native' American language, that is the choice of the American ( land stealers) who invaded and Stole America from those same indigents, then that is their choice.
So if you don't mind, no lectures from you about the way I write or the comments that I make, people in glass houses should not tyhrow stones, being an apt remark at this juncture.
You make comment about insecurities, I thinkl you should look to your own, the whole of the USA is based on insecurity, it goes out into the world creating mayhem by political shenannigins, and interfering in the legallly and democratic set up of other states, Granada is a typical example, as is the provison of weaponry to Afghanistani mujahadin, thanks to which the whole middle east is currently in turmoil, along with many other parctices of interference, and then has the almighty insolence to lecture others for their shortcomings.
You sir, are a typical Redneck, if you to think that Wales can be turned into some sort of indepedant state, we don not, so try living here, not firing pathetic shots from afar, then you may find your cosy little ideas about MY homeland, are not so cut and dried as you think.
You know nothing of our current political situation, nothing about the ambitions of a few rabid fools who use their opted for language as a weapon to berate the 8 out of 10 who are not in their camp, and therefore you need to restrict your comments to what you know.
I am pleased to hear you have managed to raise laughter amongst your fellow rednecks, with my remarks.
Maybe I should come over and do a state by state tour, so that ALL you ignorant Yanks can enjoy the fun.
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message 249.....
Answers?
227, personally I note there is a vast difference, because...
The funding that should be in the hands of local authorities is now in the Bay of Pigs where, before distribution exceptionally LARGE tranches of it, are fed out into unnecessary projects that benefit no one except those whose agenda is to entrench themselves ever deeper into the idea they can effectively run a separate state in the face of all the evidence it is neither practical or welcome.
235...
Personally I cannot comment, nor would wish to, about the sweet nothings you may whisper into the ears of your Cariad, when in the throes of sexual intercourse, or what dress style you wish to adopt on occasion, or even daily for that matter.
I can however answer your question re the 'cultural' aspects of OUR daily lives,...
... as basically, British and American entertainment and sporting subjects are quite merged, due to the mass communications and language expansion across the world since the end of WW2, I have to say it is almost identical culturally speaking.
This has become more so since the advent of global television. I take note of the fact that the Cymro element also recognised this by demanding their own TV channel here in Wales.
But wait a moment, just what has happened to that channel they demanded, it not only cannot bring in more than a handful of viewers, it is totally reliant on the sparse advertising revenue, but mainly it gets fully subsidy from the general licence paying public, plus tax breaks from the central government via the Assembly.
Answers duly provided above.
Although they have been elsewhere provided time after time.
Now let us examine you own responses, along with those of the same ilk.
Where are the answers we have demanded, re the visibility of this claimed for 'culture' that you are always banging on about?
If you cannot so provide comprehensive and thereby understandable answers, maybe it is yourself that is lacking in the capability to debate or discuss.
Ever thought of asking yourself the questions re your own shortcomings.
I think you have a damned cheek saying others cannot debate or discuss.
I at least, as do others, place before you much in the way of targets for your ammunition to be aimed at, but you fail to either sight up your responses accurately or you point the weapon in the wrong direction, a normal diversionary tactic when your own arguments are flawed.
You complain I show a lack of debating skills when I state that....
'Wales is not a nation, so do not be infantile'....
Well then, how about setting about proving I am wrong, instead of making peurile remarks that hold no justifiable content.
Let us see how your debating skills hold up.
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Message 248.... addendum to my last message.
For your information, I was an enumerator in the last national census, my remit was to cover a sector of my own area in a follow up to that census in 2001, so I have quite a bit of experience regarding the claims made by many. Which were, to be quite candid, often in regards the language, way over the top for any capability.
I am also listed to again be an enumerator in the 2011 census, whereupon, you can be very sure I will take serious note of this matter for future reference.
Added to this, I must point out to you, as I have already done, there is NO ethnic differential between anyone living in ANY part of Great Britain, nor can any antipathetic comments made about Wales or it's inhabitants by a Welshman, or any Brit even, that can be classed as racist.
The Welsh are not black, brown, yellow or red, they cannot be readily distinguished from any other British person, from land's End to John o' Groats, or for that matter across the bulk of the European land mass,.. So get it out of your head that racism is an aspect of debate when discussing Wales, or the Cymraeg language.
Language does NOT imbue a person with racial or ethnic characteristics.
If it did, there would be an awful lot of Black people claiming to be White. Especially in America.
Those that raise this spectre, are scraping the bottom of their barrel to find something they think will turn the debate or argument in their favour. All smoke and mirrors.
It does not hold water by any stretch of the imagination, even across in America, the greatest place for racism on the face of the planet.
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The question of "culture" is a difficult one to answer in as unpleasant a context as this, as one is reminded of the statements made by almost every colonising culture known to our histories, who civilised the barbarians who had no culture of their own", who "jabbered" in incomprehensible (and pointless) tongues, and so on.
It is in fact possibly impossible to convey on a 'discussion' thread like this quite what Welsh culture is - especially, perhaps, to those who have lived in Wales for possibly all their lives without yet realising it. If twenty, thirty, forty or more years of living in Wales haven't done it, then it's possibly the case that such an individual is simply blind to the features that differentiate Wales from England.
I mean this quite seriously.
Where to start? Read R.S. Thomas; read Dylan Thomas, even ('Fern Hill' is a good place to start) - but also read the critics, to help you understand the allusions; in fact, read any good poet of Wales, for good poets are indeed culturally sensitive. Or even read novels - try Emyr Humphreys, Caradog Prichard, Caradoc Evans, D. J. Williams, Kate Roberts, Angharad Price (Anglo-Welsh writers, or writers who have been translated to English). Listen to the music (folk, rock and pop), listen to the lyrics - hear the difference. Look at the plastic arts; try the paintings of Kyffin Williams, Aneurin Jones, Iwan Bala for obvious examples; look to see how the lived experience of Wales imbues the work (but again, turn to the critics, because if you haven't lived it you might find it hard to feel it). Talk to the people who have lived it.
It's difficult; you have me at a double disadvantage. For one, you remind me in many ways of those motorbike riders who destroy country paths - they themselves think there's "nothing there". The dreadfully ignorant comments concerning Pen-y-berth earlier speak volumes to this: to dismiss the three as "arsonists" is tantamount to dismissing Rosa Parks as obstructive. Yes indeed, but at a deeper and far subtler (but far more far-reaching) level, *no*. Read the histories, read the accounts of those who took part; understand the context and then take another look.
The second disadvantage is that you force me to write in my second language. I express myself more comfortably in Welsh. My cultural reference points are the feel and the weft of my first language. Earlier somebody quoted an English poem. How can I tell you what I myself feel is distinct about my own culture if I can't make felt reference to Waldo, T.H. Parry-Williams, Pantycelyn, Bobi Jones, T. Gwynn Jones, Ann Griffiths, Iolo Goch or Siôn Cent? How can we have a truly informed discussion about Wales if I am the only one who knows the cultural context of the other and yet it is I who is forced to use the other's language?
You say there is no "visible" culture. Part of the problem is that you are right - most true cultural presence is precisely invisible. One feels it, one hears it, one knows it otherwise than being hit in the face with it. And of course, in Wales, one most certainly hears it, for much of it exists in the language. The language shows a different Wales, a different subjectivity and a different world (to use the word as Husserl might have used 'Welt') - a different world of experience and selfhood; a different culture.
And yet at the same time as claiming it does not exist, you (I speak to nobody in particular) banish this culture from your sight - I am banned from using Welsh on this blog; barely a word of the language or a word about the culture is heard on the English-language media. Welsh-speaking Wales might as well be a different country, so little is know about it in English-speaking Wales.
And indeed, it _is_ a different country. Herein lies the _difference_. If you visited, with your eyes and ears open, you would understand. You would also understand that it is your own, for all your aggression against it. This is what the majority of Welsh people yet sense, and this is why they are choosing to support the programmes of cultural regeneration which are currently underway in Wales.
Let's have this discussion in a different language - I'd put my case better.
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Good news with regard to the LCO's, the Welsh Secretary has vetoed the Assembly wish that would have allowed AM's to prevent the sale of council houses to all Welsh tenants.
The veto seems to be the indication that Unionists have waited for, preventing the Assembly from creating divisions between the people of the UK.
I remember a record from my youth .....
"Its good news week".
Now, will the Welsh Secretary have the courage to do a similar thing to the Welsh Language LCO.
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Message 253....
I do understand where you are, on the matter of culture, but what you and others apparently do not seem to understand or want to, is the plain and simple fact that, the vast majority of the Welsh people, more or less 80 to 90 percent, that is some 2 and 3/4 quarter millions of us, have no access to, or desire to access, these aspects, that you call Cymraeg culture.
It is as foreign to the overwhelming majority, as is French or German, but more akin to Chinese or Japanese for it's obscurity, when really looked at .
We need subtitles on the TV if we wish to access any television output in Cymraeg.
We have our own 'culture' if it can be classified as 'culture'.
It is the way we have been raised and exposed to the current western orientated 'culture' that encompasses movies, television, the English of the world renowned authors, playrights, composers.
Shakespeare, Pinter, Crichton, Barbara Cartland even, Lloyd Webber, Delius, Handel, Ron Goodwin, and thousands, yes thousands more, than ever produced by the Cymro artistes and writers.
Our 'culture', I must phrase it that way, for want of a more applicable term, is the end product of centuries of evolvement in all fields of human literary and musical endeavour, it evolves daily, whereas that which is applicable to the Cymraeg appears stuck in a time warp.
The language can, seemingly only move forwards by adopting and adapting current English words, translating where possible, admittedly, but often simply altering the spelling components to fit in with the slightly different alphabet on which Cymraeg is based.
For every bit of Cymraeg effort, there are a hundred, nay a thousand, or more, published in English (include in that American, Australian, and all points of the compass).
That is not to downgrade Cymraeg literature, or music in any way, but just to demonstrate the facts regarding OUR attachment, not to any Cymraeg culture, but to show that whatever is, or has, been put out in the language of the ancients, it has been superseded in the vast bulk of Wales by that output from the Anglo side of the literary and musical world.
There are some who would have the Cymraeg done away with, seeing it as an encumbrance, a throwback to primitive times.
Not all feel that way. but where the dichotomy comes into it is, most wish to see the language taken out of the hands of politicians and career linguists and left where it belongs, with it's users.
They could, and should, be the arbiters of it's survival or demise.
We the bulk who live in Wales, the UK even, should not be expected to keep it alive by the misspending of valuable tax funds, that are urgently needed in more important places and for far more important uses.
So please do not think we are aware of any Cymraeg culture, because for reasons given above, we are not, we have our own to tide us over. More to the point , just as the native American resisted the arrival of the White man into his domain, changing his cultural heritage, we the Anglo speaking Welsh resist this resurgent language being pumped into our educational and establishments, and forced through our letter boxes on virtually a daily basis.
Having said that, what would be the reaction of the English speaking Americans, if the native Americans gained control of a state legislature, and proceeded to force feed their native language on to the curriculum of every school in the state.
That is the way things have happened oer here, and we do not want it.
Somehow, I doubt that move would be tolerated in the USA. Or anywhere else in the world for that matter.
Unless of course, 80 to 90% of that state's population were in fact Native Americans. The reverse of what is the case here.
It all costs money, that in truth we have to pay up for, We don't want to, we were never asked to agree to it, nor I suspect once given the opportunity, will we allow it to continue for much longer into the future.
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mapexx, your .....
"most wish to see the language taken out of the hands of politicians and career linguists and left where it belongs, with it's users."
Hey-ho, hole in one.
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Mapexx #255 (for the sake of argument)
i) your "more or less 80 to 90 percent, that is some 2 and 3/4 quarter millions of us, have no access to, or desire to access, these aspects, that you call Cymraeg culture"
Why are you so convinced that *all* of those who do not speak Welsh have "no desire" to access it? And further, where is the logic which allows you then to deduce the rest of your claims?
It may be true that *you* do not (and, undoubtedly, many thousands if not tens of thousands like you), but you are surely wrong to count everybody with you. Some non-Welsh speakers (hundreds of thousands) may perhaps have different opinions than you do (let's consider for example the many who are learning Welsh, or sending their children to Welsh-medium schools). Indeed, why should we talk about "ourselves" all the time when what is under consideration is the cultural vitality and potential of future generations?).
ii) your "it is as foreign... as is French or German. [...] We need subtitles on the TV."
Umm... well... frankly... yes!! ^^ It is a different language! Well spotted! ^^ That's why we need better education so that we can all understand the thing, and not be left in ignorance of the major part of Welsh cultural heritage (i.e. all of the last two thousand years, give or take, minus the last century or so).
iii) your "[Welsh is] more akin to Chinese or Japanese for it's [sic] obscurity, when really looked at."
Looked at by whom? In what way is it closer to Chinese or Japanese? Is it not an Indo-European language like English, French and German, with borrowings from Latin, French and German (just like English)? What are the similarities to Chinese or Japanese (i.e. where are the Welsh ideograms?)
iv) Your reference to "our culture" vs the Welsh "time warp" seems to be based on the misapprehensions some of which have already been pointed out in this discussion (cf. #17 et sim.). Why do you consider it so negative that Welsh should borrow words from English, and why should this put Welsh in a 'time warp'? Is this not the way all languages today work (and have worked always)? Your talk of our "culture" already uses a French word; you use other words, such as "phrase", "applicable", "term", "product", "centuries" "evolvement", "human", "literary", "musical", "endeavour". None of these is an English word - they are all borrowings. And it hasn't done English any harm.
French, German, Russian, Spanish, Polish, Irish, Icelandic, Finnish, etc. - all these languages are borrowing from English at the moment, and adapting them in the same way as Welsh is. No language is the worse for it - it's simply the way the lingua franca is working at the moment.
Please explain why this leaves Welsh in a "time warp", and why this situation is in any way harmful.
v) Why is size so important, and why does the fact that more books are published in English in any way speak detrimentally of the other languages in the world? How many books can you read, for goodness sake! Should English have been suffocated in the cradle when it was languishing under French rule and most everything in England was written in French or Latin? Of course not - your criteria are all skewed. Value lies elsewhere than in output. Is Mills and Boon "better" than Milton simply because there's more of it!?
vi) "most wish to see the language taken out of the hands of politicians and career linguists and left where it belongs, with it's users. "
Very wise sentiments. I don't know that it's true that this is where the Welsh language is right now (I think you're wrong, given the excellent artistic creativity in Welsh at the moment), but I'll bow to your superior understanding of the situation (even though you provide no evidence).
vii) your "we the Anglo speaking Welsh resist this resurgent language being pumped into our educational and establishments, and forced through our letter boxes on virtually a daily basis."
again, your "we" somewhat overstates the limits of your own personal identity (unless you can show me the certificate which proves your elected right to speak for 2.5 million people!). Also your annoyance at having the language "forced through our letter boxes" (undoubtedly very painful! how your poor letter box must be resisting the fascist fingers of the posty! and oh, the anguish of having to tarnish your pinky-white digits with this foreign alphabet (like Chinese, really, isn't it - ych a fi!). Crikey, do you overreact or what!? Put it in the bin and let those who want to read it... read it!
Please give me just one good and true example of how having Welsh "pumped into our educational and establishments" limits your own ability to use English and makes your life that much more painful.
vii) "if the native Americans gained control of a state"
Wouldn't that mean they had a democratic mandate? And wouldn't that mean that a significant majority were in favour? Are your own examples showing us exactly where your own mistakes lie?
In any case - we might hope that, in this lamentably unlikely scenario, the "English-speaking" Americans (for which read "monoglots", I guess, since most everybody speaks English through no fault of their own) would be enlightened and happy to take the opportunity to learn a little more about the history and culture of their neighbourhood.
Not everybody has psychological chips on their shoulders.
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At last!!!! Someone has come forward and has made a decent effort to describe 'Welsh Culture'.
Thank you Bostoniwr, well done.
Unfortunately I don't have any interest in poetry and all that stuff. I'm just an ordinary sort of bloke who's more interested in current affairs and things that are relevant to my life.
You have named a list of what I presume are eminent writers but unfortunately, apart from Dylan Thomas, I've never read them. And all I know of Dylan are the antics that he got up to whilst doing his 'thing'.
Paintings? Not my cup of tea, sorry. Kyffin Williams? I've seen some of his stuff and I'm not that impressed. Maybe it's the way that I've looked at his pictures.
You mention music. What music? Folk music? Please don't refer to the likes of Dafydd Iwan the Pub Singer or even Meic Stevens. He was actually Mike when I knew him many years ago. Nothing original or interesting about either of them as can be seen from their lack of popularity outside of Nationalist circles.
Rock? Pop? Who exactly? Without exception, every successful rock or pop artist from Wales has made their name outside of Wales and through the medium of the English language.
I've actually heard so-called Welsh rock on S4C and, I'm sorry, from what I've heard it's nothing more than unoriginal work in a funny language that simply sounds wrong.
These particular genres of music are almost exclusively portrayed via English, particularly with a Mid-Atlantic accent.
It seems to me that the 'culture' that you refer to is entirely time, class and location specific and has little to do with everyday life.
From what I've seen of so-called celebrations of Welsh 'culture', both you and I are right. The Eisteddfod and Bardic ceremonials clearly bear this out.
The Eisteddfod and Bards are just about all that comprises Welsh culture as far as I can see and are certainly not embraced by the vast majority.
It would seem that I'm just an un-cultured ignoramus to have missed all this cultural excitement but unfortunately none of the things that you have mentioned interest me and, presumably, I would be considered to be something less than a Welshman despite having been born and bred here.
I would venture to suggest that this would be true of the great majority of Welsh folk.
You mention the three 'arsonists' and object to them being described thus. Presumably, you are referring to Saunders Lewis and his cronies who were, quite rightly, prosecuted for arson. Ipso facto, they are arsonists.
Further, Saunders Lewis will always be remembered for his part in the formulation of Welsh 'culture' wherein he campaigned vigourously to prevent English children from being evacuated to Wales in order to save them from the ravages of the Nazi bombers which were flattening their homes in the manufacturing centres in the Midlands.
His reasoning was that they would "pollute" his precious Welsh 'culture'. What a nasty piece of work he was.
I suppose as a prominent Welsh writer, Lewis would be an integral part of this particularly nasty aspect of Welsh culture. It must be noted that the Nationalists frequently suggest that those who are not interested in 'Welsh Culture' leave their homes and go elsewhere. I've had that invitation a few times.
And yes, I have read of his exploits. Big pals with Mussolini and admirer of Hitler, from what I hear. His arsonist exploits were simply that and can hardly be equated with Rosa Parks. She showed singular courage. What Lewis did required no courage at all and simply consisted of sneaking around and setting fire to other people's property Not really someone to be overly proud of and if he's part of your Welsh culture, kindly count me out. I'd rather remain British, thanks.
I have lived in Wales for more that 60 years and have yet to be 'touched' by this Welsh Culture that you describe.
Here's a simple question:
Having been made aware of my complete and utter disinterest in and your immersion in your interpretation of 'Welsh Culture' would you consider that you are a superior Welshman to me or that I am less of a Welshman than you?
If so, I suppose that I and many others could be termed as 'Cymro danodd' or 'Cymro llai. At least it's a bit better than 'untermensch' as Saunders Lewis's mates would have called us.
Maybe I've just made my own contribution to Welsh culture.
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Bostoniwr.
Having just read your latest posting wherein you say, regarding the 'borrowing' of words:
"Please explain why this leaves Welsh in a "time warp", and why this situation is in any way harmful."
Having consulted the Geiriadur I would simply add this.
English: Bicycle. noun = two wheeled vehicle propelled by pedals.
Welsh: Beic, ceffyl heiron. noun = iron horse???
Welsh translates an abbreviation and gives an alternative that's clearly in a time warp.
"Let's do the Time Warp again".
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Gonoph #258
your "my complete and utter disinterest"
this is what it boils down to - at least your cards are on the table.
perhaps your age is significant - who's in the time warp, I wonder! :)
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Mappexx -I'm paying my taxes for you to help run the census!! That's worrying - what sort of recruitment process did you go through?
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Bostoniwr, your #157 .....
quote .....
vi) "most wish to see the language taken out of the hands of politicians and career linguists and left where it belongs, with it's users. "
Very wise sentiments. I don't know that it's true that this is where the Welsh language is right now (I think you're wrong, given the excellent artistic creativity in Welsh at the moment), but I'll bow to your superior understanding of the situation (even though you provide no evidence).
end quote.
Evidence .....
Welsh Language Board’s annual review for 2007-08. Page 96 .....
Report of an investigation under section 17 of the Welsh Language Act 1993 into the City and County of Swansea
The Board presented four recommendations to the Council ................ to raise managers’ awareness of the requirements of the Welsh Language Scheme; and to conduct a review of traffic signs, reporting annually on compliance.
Very definitely in the hands of Politicians and career linguists.
Culture .....
A manifestation of a collective achievement by a particular nation, people or group.
Bostoniwr,
It seems your culture might be just that, your culture. If another group chooses not to embrace your culture that is its right, yet in Wales this other cultural group is forced to subsidise your cultural manifestations.
Nothing personal Bostoniwr, but when you criticise Mapexx for the use of "we" it is Mapexx that is being bullied by yourself, particularly when you write .....
".... somewhat overstates the limits of your own personal identity".
Mapexx is part of a cultural group that currently does not benefit from political support, there is no overstating his position, a position that sees him/her with the proverbial back to the wall.
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Message 257...
As others have pretty well done my responses for me, I will take just your opening paragraph to respond to myself.
I DID NOT say that 80% of the Welsh population are with me in my summation. What I did say was that 8/10ths of the population have no access to, or desire to access,... this is borne out by the atmosphere of total disinterest that this large percentage consistently seem to demonstrate.
However I must also say something re the rest of your message....
I do not operate in the same sort of time warp scenario that is the perceived standing of those who retain attachment to the ancient language.
I am, in common with some billion of people, enmeshed within a culture, if that is what it can be called, that spans the globe.
I have expanded horizons that reach from north to south, east to west, but that is because MY 'culture' has spread across the globe, by modern technological means.
The sad thing is, here in MY HOMELAND,, that expansion is under threat by a very small group of people who, driving their fellow language speakers before them like a flock of sheep, expect all others, in MY HOMELAND, to join the flock, but if we are perceived to refuse or resist we are then lumbered with the title anti Welsh, or Wales haters.
It would be laughable, if it were not taken so bloody serious by the shepherds of that flock, and so damned expensive to the rest of us.
The reason I said the language, (and invisible culture) is akin to Chinese or Japanese is simply because those who promote it, seem to want is to accept something so foreign and alien, that we cannot fathom out where the start or finish point is.
They want us to take on board a language that to all intents and purposes is almost dead in it's homelands, and currently appears to gain new strength only by enforcement from the Bay of Pigs, coupled to a small parental surge, relatively small in number and spasmodic, as can be witnessed when their sprogs reach the age of secondary education, in the majority if cases.
And a culture that would have us back in the early middle ages, as far as modernity is concerned.
This is why the vast majority shows no interest, they have their own modern cultural foundations, and do not, apparently, want, or certainly need, to have those foundations removed, to be replaced by a leftover remnant rump of ancient times.
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I'm with you Mappex, our culture has been formed by many years of wide-ranging influences, whatever the current nats in Cardiff Bay, like to think.
It does not only consist of the Celtic tradition (600 AD), but of all the settlers who have come to these Isles, sometimes uninvited, but who have, nevertheless, left their mark and resulted in the great melange that exists here today. Long may it continue!
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Bostoniwr #260
Maybe you're right Bostoniwr, my age is probably highly significant.
As an 'elder' Welsh person I feel that my age qualifies me to have been an integral part of the development of our current Welsh 'culture' which is indistinguishable from the culture found throughout the UK.
Your version of culture, as I have previously stated, is entirely time, class and location specific. Whereas my 'culture' is more diverse and worldly.
My Concise Oxford Dictionary informs me that culture may be described thus:
Culture: Noun, the customs, ideas and social behaviour of a particular people or group.
Your particular people or group appear to wish to wallow in cultural aspects steeped in the past whereas mine seems to be a little more up to date.
This indicates to me that there is a clear division within Wales and we seem to be in competition as to which version of 'culture' will prevail.
The Welsh language is absent from my life. Bardic and Eisteddfodic activity simply fail to inspire me and I feel no loss.
Nevertheless, I feel that I am at the heart of Welsh culture, simply because I am Welsh. I am also British, Westernised and Worldly all at the same time. Isn't culture just wonderful?
Whilst I would support the desire of those who would wish to preserve their own 'version' of culture, please carry on but kindly do not expect the rest of us to follow your example or pay for it, as culture, of any description, is an evolutionary process and yours appears not to have evolved.
My current contribution to today's Welsh 'culture' is a new found skill and means of cultural expression, namely, 'Guitar Hero' on the Nintendo WII.
I regularly beat my grandchildren's scores and feel that I am an integral part of this cultural evolution.
Some time-warp eh?
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Message 261...
Yes so you are, paying your taxes to run the census, but also so AM I.
My 'recruitment' is based on the fact I was a successful enumerator in 2001.
For the O.N.S., that success was obviously the very sort of certification it requires for it's 2011 enumerators.
Now.. if you have any more 'loaded' questions, please put them before me.
But to complete my response to you, you say that I being a enumerator, and it worries you, in fact, I may even be a regional supervisor in 2011, considering my previous successful sortie into census matters, I wonder if that worries you even more?
But I wouldn't fret too much, as an enumerator, or regional supervisor is strictly limited in their capacity to make comment or attempt to influence those they interview, Any such attempted persuasions, or out of order questions, can result in the enumerator being immediately dismissed with the possibility of heavy penalty on top.
They are given a set of questions to ask their interviewee's and are compelled, under oath and threat of penalty, to not engage in other than chit chat , simply to put interviewee's at ease, for the purpose of the interview.
However that said, the re are other means to elucidate information regarding the interviewee's Cymraeg adherence. The two main methods are to use one's eye and ears, for such as children or older people conversing within earshot in Cymraeg, or there being a plenitude of Cymraeg published matter about the place, books, music, flags and other decorative, but Cymru based paraphernalia.
I hope I have covered the ground for you, but please do not hesitate to ask if you feel threatened in any way, or feel objection to your taxes being spent by my working as an enumerator, or regional supervisor.
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"For your information, I was an enumerator in the last national census, my remit was to cover a sector of my own area in a follow up to that census in 2001, so I have quite a bit of experience regarding the claims made by many. Which were, to be quite candid, often in regards the language, way over the top for any capability.
I am also listed to again be an enumerator in the 2011 census, whereupon, you can be very sure I will take serious note of this matter for future reference."
Unless I'm reading it wrongly your last paragraph seems to imply influencing the results - if not I apologise - what does it mean?
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Mapexx #266
1/ "music, flags and other decorative, but Cymru based paraphernalia"
crikey - you do have preconceptions! No flag, doesn't count! (Can I tick the 'speak English' box too, please, even though I don't have a St George's cross on my wall?)
2/ "elucidate information regarding the interviewee's Cymraeg adherence"
speaking like a Dalek! Elucidate information! Bad adherence! Exterminate! Exterminate!
(and spelling badly, too - any more apostrophe''s anybody?)
Seems like the heat's got to you. Admit it, Mapexx - you're a computer! Can we have human supervisors, please?
:)
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Can anyone give me an example of people being forced to speak Welsh?
Thought not.
Can anyone give me some examples of people who hate Welsh-speakers and want them and their culture abolished?
Check this blog - you'll find plenty, along with plenty of bilious anglo-supremacists mocking Welsh but showing displays of illiteracy in English, the alleged supreme language in front of which we must all bow down.
People who want to speak their mother tongue in their country should be given the freedom and equality to do so. The systematic historical attempts to kill Welsh off (hardly 'natural' language death...) has failed to kill it, and in the end either you believe in equality or you don't.
The idea that Welsh-speakers are advantaged or that Welsh is dying are total fabrications. If you're not interested in Welsh, then so be it. No-one's trying to convert you.
But to attack those who speak it and smear an entire culture, its history and its continued existence is nothing less than minority-bashing claptrap, scapegoating and internally-directed racism.
It doesn't matter what language you speak, it's what you say that counts. Hate, cultural arrogance and minority-bashign sound ugly in any language.
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legendaryavocet #264
"I'm with you Mappex, our culture has been formed by many years of wide-ranging influences, whatever the current nats in Cardiff Bay, like to think."
'Pembrokeshire English' is rich in dialect words.
Many are thought to be pre-Chaucerian in origin, while others reveal the influence of Flemish, Irish and Scandinavian settlers.
In his book on the Pembrokeshire language Dr. B.G. Charles listed nearly 2,000 dialect words which have been recorded in the county.
Despite the spread of standardised English and increasing numbers of ‘incomers’, the regional accent still remains strong – particularly in rural areas around Martletwy and on the Dale and Angle peninsulas.
Many dialect words remain in everyday use, such as kift (awkward), caffled (tangled), tamping (extremely angry), drang (a narrow alley), or skirp (light rain), while wai ay is the Pembrokeshire way of saying 'yes'.
600 words are enough for a dialect to be considered an independent language - here we have 2000+.
No I don't know all of them.
But we are not dealing with rational people.
Brynt41 #238 in response to my #234 post.
Takes what I wrote - rewrites it, and on on the basis of his revised version says,
"To put it bluntly... I think you're essentially anti-Welsh, despite your protestations. You knock down whatever is facts are put to you."
Remember the main thrust of #234 was'
"that I strongly oppose enforcement of either Language, Culture or some ethnic dream on individuals or communities that do not want it.
.............
There has to be a better way."
Reread my post Brynt41 - I don't expect you to agree with me - but you need to revise your criticism and apologies.
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Interesting post , West-Wales. Am I right in saying that the 'Down-below' accent can resemble the type of 'burr' found in the Welsh Marches ? . I once heard someone say that, but its not an accent you'd really hear often (if at all ) in the media.
As far as culture is concerned, a giant Welsh polymath has just died. T. Llew Jones was a schoolteacher who wrote prolifically, his speciality being historical novels for children.
He also wrote books on grammar , and was an accomplished poet and chess player.
I refer you to this sad event because his work really did reflect all aspects of Welsh-language life and culture , from his knowledge of local Welsh history to his use of the Welsh language in chess.
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West-Wales #270
With you all the way on the variety of Wales and its rich history of multiculturalism. Long let it continue - Pembrokeshire English, Standard English, Pemrokeshire Welsh and Standard Welsh (and the other kinds of English and Welsh spoken here). We need to be open about this and think positive.
I'm glad of the injection of support for plurality and respect - perhaps the violence on this blog can calm down around a common belief.
I'm not sure about your statement about dialects and languages, though: "600 words are enough for a dialect to be considered an independent language". Who is the authority here, and can you give some examples of how this has been implemented in a meaningful manner somewhere?
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Indeed.
T. Llew Jones.
R.I.P. Heddwch i'w lwch.
T. Llew Jones' death in fact demonstrates part of the major problem around which this blog's blustering is circling - the fact that it is often (if not generally) deemed "uninteresting" to report in the English-language media about issues happening in Welsh. T. Llew Jones' death has not been reported yet in English as far as I'm aware (beyond Hogygog's message). BBC "Wales" certainly hasn't covered it, even though it's had extensive coverage on the Welsh-language sites.
Undoubtedly many here will say "I'm not interested - I haven't heard of him", but they should perhaps stop for a moment before doing so and give this some serious, considered, and respectful thought. There is a serious problem of communication here in Wales.
A literary icon, an educator and a man of great culture has passed away. It is a loss to all of Wales.
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I'm sorry to hear about the loss of T. Llew Jones.
His Welsh medium adventure and detective stories - not just for children - brought pleasure and excitment to many - a few of his books have been translated into English and some adapted for television.
He never had a formal university education but was awarded a well deserved MA by The Univerity of Wales.
When he was nearly 90 he won an Eisteddfod chair.
A Giant - his work will live on.
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Additional to my #272:
..."and other languages other than English and Welsh" (though that is a different issue entirely, not currently under discussion).
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Hogygog
#271
I understand that The Pembrokeshire language has been classified as belonging to the south western group of English dialects.
Which means it has the same roots and origins as the ancient Wessex language.
This would suggest that many of the settlers who arrived to colonise south Pembrokeshire in the wake of the Norman Conquest came from the West Country.
So I suppose it is a reasonable possibility that the Language of the Welsh Marches are related.
But of course Pembrokeshire had been colonised by others notably the Romans, Scandinavians and Irish long before.
The great safe harbours on the Pembrokeshire coast were important trading centers in prehistory.
Many local place names here date back to those times.
Hermeneut
#272
Sorry I can't give you a reference, it comes from a seminar on Communication, I attended while at Uni many years ago.
One of those things that stick in the mind;
The presenter said that 600 words were the minimum required for effective communication, so if a language had 600 or more independent words it was a distinct language.
In this case the application was for artificial language.
If you do find confirmation I would be greatful if you can give me a link.
You also say;
"With you all the way on the variety of Wales and its rich history of multiculturalism. Long let it continue - Pembrokeshire English, Standard English, Pemrokeshire Welsh and Standard Welsh (and the other kinds of English and Welsh spoken here). We need to be open about this and think positive."
This is so very important - To achieve this is surely the major objective.
My concern is that the current one size fits all approach of the Language Activists is not only alienating people but also destroying much we should save.
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Message 268...
Missing apostrophes, my are you not the clever little one.
Idiot,... it is known as typographical errors, not picked up by the spell check, and missed when in edit mode.
When one is attempting to tweak out info from sometimes reluctant interviewee's, soft words tend to elucidate their spoken statements, in other words ...clarify them, bring them into the light..
Not my fault if you cannot understand English.
Unlike most British people, the nationalistic type here in Wales DO tend to spread the Draig Goch over bare spaces on their interior walls, not to mention have them displayed in windows of both house and car.
Dare I hazard a guess and say you live outside of Wales?
Your stupid response to my previous message would indicate that to be the case, as anyone here in the English speaking part of Wales, who themselves are NOT nationalisticly inclined can confirm, is the norm for those who wish everyonme to know they are biased in the Cymru direction.
Finally... just be very glad I ain't a Dalek, otherwise extermination certainly would be your imminent fate.
Please feel free to point out futher spelling errors.
Marks out of ten at the bottom of any further idiotic message from you.
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#277
"it is [...] typographical errors [sic], not picked up by the spell check"
aah. the state of literacy - let the spell-check do it.
In any case; yours was a *grammatical error* rather than simply typographical, from which not even great uncle Microsoft could have saved you!
computers... more computers...! ;)
In fact, you've done it again in this message: "interviewee's" for the plural of the noun. Seems you do have a problem with plurality! :D
"Idiot"
"idiotic message"
"stupid response"
calm down, Mapexx, me old muckah - you'll blow a diode!
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I had a comment left on my blog yesterday, thought it appropriate ....
Vancouver realtor said...
Exactly. Language has always been just a tool which can be adjusted, changed, which can grow or decline. I believe everybody should use the tool he likes the most. Artificial promoting of some minority language has no meaning, on the other hand, if somebody believes his masterpiece has meaning only in the one only language, why not?
Best wishes
Jay
Our American cousin seems to have the rights of it.
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Vancouver is in Canada, though fairly close to the border with the United States.
You would , of course, been correct in saying :
" Our North American cousin ...."
Ahh - the benefits of an open-minded education !
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Hogygog, your #280.
Quite correct, in a hurry this morning, he is in fact our Canadian cousin, and apologies if you read this "Vancouver realtor", it was remiss of me.
I notice you didn't comment on the observations made by "Vancouver realtor"
A fallacious argument me thinks ..... "Changing The Subject (Digression, Red Herring, Misdirection, False Emphasis)"
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Message 277...
I will let you into a little secret....shhhh'.. not supposed to mention info gained from instructions etc re the census,...but here goes..
The preferred term was 'Interviewee's'.
Now you may say ' interviewed' as I would normally, if writing of any other subject matter, but the instruction and references were all as mentioned above.
Perhaps the program was decided upon by an American compiler, I have no idea, but official paperwork has to be strictly adhered to,,... formulaic I am afraid.
As for the use of the spell check, surely you are not calling me over for that?
I suggest you take a look at many blogs and message boards where messages are forwarded without the use of the spell check.
You cannot mean to tell me they are presentable, or can you?
Normally, not being a typist of any great shakes, and having rather numb fingers from many decades of using hand and power tools, I NEED the spell check to iron out the many mistakes I make, due to the speed I attempt to put thought on screen.
So, if you don't mind, do not be so bloody pedantic. I am sure you are so, from being Mr Peter Perfect yourself.
Well I ain't, and at my time of life have no intention of so becoming.
So back off. Look to your own failings.
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WAG is entirely responsible for dividing the Welsh people. They wanted to create an independent country, inhabited by one specific type of Welsh person. Changing our lives with road signs that we do not understand and endanger our safety when driving, ensuring that we receive letters in a language that we do not understand, and forcing our children through the curriculum cymraeg to learn Welsh, is wrong and all these things serve to make us feel strangers in our own land.
I respect the right of Welsh -speakers to use their language in those areas where it is traditionally used, but it is completely wrong to pay £14m per annum to a quango to enforce Welsh on those of us who do not need, or want it. Spend the money on promoting it in those areas!
Until they recognise that 'you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink', and stop spending vast amounts of money on this ridiculous policy, they will only divide us further. Politicians, respect our differences - get rid of the language police - give us back our freedom to choose what subjects and languages we want to study. Perhaps, Nick Bourne would not have needed to buy an i-pod from the public purse, had he not been forced to learn Welsh.
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The Assembly sets its policies according to the popular vote, therefore, the will of the people should prevail. The problem is that historically (if the last 12 years is 'historical'), only those people interested in Welsh politics have an interest in the Assembly. Those people are likely to show a higher proportion of Welsh speakers, and of voters with nationalist leanings, than are generally found in the Welsh population. Hence the ability of the Assembly and the Welsh Language Board to (allegedly) get away with all sorts of things without proper scrutiny.
But what a tangle - in order to get proper representation for all the people of Wales, those who are opposed to the institution need to encourage people to take part in it's processes.
Legendary - I agree with you on your opinion that there should be a differentiation between areas with different 'linguistic profiles' when looking at Welsh language provision and rights. At the moment, these 'rights' are woefully inadequate in areas where the community language is Welsh, and somewhat stifling in areas where it is English.
However, I suspect that the reasoning behind the one size fits all is an erroneous attempt *not* to divide us. Thus a piece of rights legislation is (seemingly) used as a social engineering tool.
Your opinions in the preceding post I have to argue with, though.
Bilingual roadsigns, correspondence etc, and the Welsh Language Board are products of the Welsh Language Act 1993, 6 years before the Assembly was invented. In fact, it should be easier to change the policies of the Assembly regarding the Welsh language than it would ever have been to change those of the Welsh secretary, who would just be doing what he (or his London based party) felt was best for him / them.
Compulsory Welsh was introduced to the curriculum in 1990 (Assembly minus 9 years), though it was extended to key stage 4 in 1999.
Had Nick Bourne been through an education system in which Welsh was a compulsory subject, he might not now need an iPlayer to help him learn Welsh. That he has decided voluntarily to learn Welsh is commendable, as it allows him to speak to all his constituents in their choice of official language.
You seem an intelligent person, and are obviously passionate about your beliefs. We need people like you to be questioning the assembly (rather than wasting your time with the likes of me on the web!), putting together a factual argument against the one size fits all approach, starting a petition on the assembly site (the petition committee have to treat it seriously, and you can follow transcripts of their discussions etc, so you know exactly where you stand and who is saying what about your petition.)
I would certainly sign the petition if it just called for an end to 'one size fits all'. You might get a lot of support from some very unexpected directions. We Welsh speakers in the SE should still have rights (particularly for our children) , but I'm sure we could find a better compromise than the assembly can find for us!
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A breath of fresh air. Thanks for resetting the tone, Just1nd. Hear, hear - it's time to get this discussion out in the open and have it conducted properly, rationally and courteously.
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