"Notislomoshyn"
Brought up in a Welsh-speaking home, every now and then my mother, when in a firm but fair mood, would give me something called a "notislomoshyn". It sounded terrifying but was something to which, pretty clearly, I had to respond. It was years later before it dawned on me that what she was actually giving me was a "Notice of Motion", a suggestion that we get something out in the open - and soon - so we could sort it out.
I sensed a certain "notislomoshyn" in Leighton Andrews' interview on last night's Dragon's Eye.
The Rhondda AM and Deputy Minister for Regeneration wants there to be an open debate about the future direction of the Welsh Labour Party.
The race to find Rhodri Morgan's successor might not have officially started but the opportunity for positioning and the debating of ideas truly has: think PR in local elections. Leighton Andrews wants to be a central part of that debate.
He wants there to be a contest, no coronation.
He wants to be part of the leadership team.
He wants to remind all candidates that the deal between Labour and Plaid is "a coalition not a merger".
And so, Leighton Andrews has ruled himself out as a candidate.
First impression? That no-one could name the five colleagues - and he'd have needed five - who would have backed him.
Second impression? That by making it abundantly clear he wants there to be a contest, he could be giving himself, a Deputy Minister, the leeway and a pretty good reason for handing his nomination to someone other than the leadership's favoured candidate.
And that most of all, the fascinating battle over the future direction of the Welsh Labour Party is on.
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~21~RS~)
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Sorry to be thick, but what, in this context is a 'local' election ? After all, Cardiff Bay is a 'local' assembly if Stormont is..
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I have just been reading the hilarious blog of Bethan Jenkins. I don't whether it is naivety or youthful exuberance or a stealthily manipulative streak - but she now appears to be AC/AM for cloudcuckooland, bless her little cotton socks...
She seems to think that the voters, in devo referendum, were saying, 'Right Bethan we are voting for you lot to get on the Devolution train from Cardiff Bay, and go just as far as you want down the line to complete secession from the United Kingdom - and don't bother to ask us again, we just get so bored with all these things like 'votes' - you guys know best'...
Catch yourself on, sweetie... - NO ONE has given you this mandate, and your attempts to push legislation no in Wales has voted for onto us, in the same way that the EU pushed the Working Time Directive onto Britain, when none of us had asked for it, is just the sort of thing which alienates people from their political 'representatives'.
The idea that Paul Murphy is being made a bogey-man in all this, when all he is doing is representing and managing the correct split of democratic legitimacy between the Westminster Parliament and Cardiff Bay is absolutely laughable.
I'm half expecting that Plaid Cymru will be gerrymandering any 'legislative powers' referendum so that the ballot papers will be only in Welsh, so as not to give the other side an 'unfair advantage' due to weight of numbers ! Give me strength, dear - when you've clocked up a few more years you may develop a bit more pragmatism and learn what is really important to Welsh people - until then stick your self-important and totally inward-looking focus in the bin, and start to focus on the voters who put you in the Bay, not your own interests in pushing your career and marketing your ego..
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Thank you my Lord.Who is Bethan Jenkins A.M.I recently saw our illustrious leader appearing before some "mickey mouse" committee in Bay and he was sucking up to young AM who might be the aforementioned. It was about some invitation to meetings of Highland/Islands of which us ordinary "plebs"have not interest or concern whatsoever. In the name of god when my children who work in private sector in England are fearful for their jobs/homes how have we let this bunch of inadequates get any near power. This constant and incestuous concern by BBC Wales about who is going to lead Labour/Lib Dems is a disgrace. We need a "cull" of political journalists in Llandaff and spend the money on things that matter to real people.
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My Lord, Cardiff and Stormont are 'regional' assemblies, as in regions of the UK. 'Local elections' means elections to local authorities - in Wales, 'unitary' county, county borough and city councils - as defined by various Local Government Acts. The clue is in the words 'local government'...
(sorry, sarcasm now off)
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Snoutsintrough – You appear to be a very angry person. As you call those in power a ‘bunch of inadequates’. I have an easy to answer question.
What political party would you like to see running Wales and the UK?
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MadWelsh - there is no need to be so very patronising - it is this ridiculous inability to explain things to anyone outside the Cardiff politburo which is making the Welsh Assembly doomed to failure.
Here is a little quiz question for you..
In the initials MLA, for politicians in Northern Ireland, what does the 'L' stand for there ?
I will leave it with you...
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7741759.stm
Maybe this will lead to a slightly better and more balanced debate on Welsh Devolution..
We can but hope...
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LBG - 'Legislative'
Please accept my apologies for the patronising tone. It's easy to think that some terms are 'obvious' - such as 'local elections' - when the rest of the world has no idea what they mean. Sometimes we call it the 'real world' outside...
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Bethan and Leanne are upset about the Hoover jobs - I suppose it could be worse - they could be in jobs which don't have the security of tenure and fringe benefits of life in Cardiff Bay..
"It is great to see that now we have ‘devolution’ there is so much help for people when local problems arise. This is democracy inaction for local people. Facing the credit crunch, the Welsh AMs have all those weapons against falling demand at the ready. Not that facile simplistic lowering of bureaucracy and red tape, but dogged persistence with the journey to a new Welsh Language Act - I can hear those Hoover workers breathing a sigh of relief now !! And no attempts to lower costs for UK employers by the re-negotiation of EU job killing legislation like the Working Time Directive and Social Chapter - no, the answer to all these woes is a ‘bail-out’, after all it’s not your money your spending - it is ours !!
You might think ‘You can’t buck the market..’ but until the voters rumble that, it will be too late, as you’ll have been voted back for another year on the gravy train.. Trebles All Round !!!
It could be worse - people like you could be running businesses of your own - in which case Wales really would be stuffed…"
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I'm always amazed when I make my occasional visits to this blog at how much time the Welsh-bashers have on their hands...
My favourite piece of rubbish is WestWales's 'breakdown' of the percentages of peopel speaking Welsh, a breakdown which is total invention.
And the old Stonemason, what a guy, with his fantasies of ethnic cleansing of English speakers!
And his Lordship!
And old Snoutey of the Trough... , who believes that Ams are a watse, but Mps, who cost 6 times more, are wonderful and have served us so well
and where's old 'Noah Sembly', he of the belief that English-speakers are 'superior'?
what a motley bunch
between them unable to make a single political point that holds water, and expending hundreds of thousands of words on these pompous armchair pronouncements...
I object to my license fee being used giving these people the therapy of blog commenting. The BBC is a broadcasting corporation and not a branch of the NHS.
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daverodway, your .....
'I object to my license fee being used giving these people the therapy of blog commenting.'
Fortunately Jones-Parry is challenging those who favour further powers for the National Assembly to put forward concrete ideas about laws they would like to see passed.
Presumably you do not favour this position.
He also said 'the benefits of a full law-making Parliament for Wales must be more clearly explained'.
Are you still with me ..... he then throws down the gauntlet .....
'And if those against think such powers would mean the slippery slope to independence, why do they think that? So far I haven’t had answers to those questions.'
At last a forum is to be opened up to objectors.
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I refer to 10 above.Proud to be included included in such a "motley bunch" of plainly realists in these difficult times. I refer to previous comments by myself in that other parts of UK that are similar to Wales seem to be surviving without the additional tier of politicians that we have in Cardiff Bay. The idea that we need more of these people is a joke. The private sector which creates all the wealth that enables the public sector to survive and prosper in Wales is suffering massive job losses whilst the WAG continues to spend money as if there isnt going to be a pay back time. I'll make a suggestion in that all "non-essential" bidgets are cut by 20% and savings used for actual investment in productive ventures,or even more radically give us our own money back and we'll spend it on things like food/heating etc. Now thats radical thinking and positively THATCHERITE.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
daverodway
If you are unable to find a logical argument to demolish a view you don't like - resorting to personal abuse only demonstrates the weakness of your position.
Two points;
It is Wales and the Welsh we are making a case for - the present extreme Nationalist path is, we believe, going to destroy a great deal of what we love, and taking us to a future that is likely to be dictatorial and bleak.
Breakdown of Welsh speakers;
2001 census - 20.8%
2004 Welsh Language use survey - 21.7%
I said 20 to 25% the 25% was a figure I took from your post:
From The Notebook 2:11pm 08Nov2008
I now find that 25% is a gross overestimate.
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Come on now lads, lets not be too harsh on our Dave.
He's not a bad lad really. OK he calls us all "Welsh haters" and "Wales bashers" on almost all his posts (take a look). But deep down he really is just a kindly soul who has been enchanted by the musical charms of his President, the sainted Dafydd Iwan.
In one of his posts he says "I have been in education most of my life", and therein I suspect is the reason for his unfriendliness to us non-believing heretics.
I think our Dave might be a teacher!!!!!
Now I know just how stressful that teaching malaky can be. One of my sons teaches, and his wife (a lovely girl) has told us just how drained he can be after a difficult day at the 'chalk face'.
Dave must have similar bad days, and the only way he can find relief from all that frustration and pent-up anger is to write nasty things about us on Betsan's Blog.
So chill out lads, and relax in the knowledge that the abuse piled on us by Dave is nothing personal. Just sit back and reflect that we are helping a fellow Welshman lose his demons, thus setting him up for yet another day trying to instill some knowledge into the little gits.
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Noah-Assembly
Perhaps Dave teaches Welsh - !!!?
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I am glad you are fascinated by this contest Betsan because frankly it bores me silly and actually scares me. If we are stuck with the One Wales lot for a period of time then at least Rhodri Morgan is recognisable and broadly competent (if very quirky) politician. As for any of the suggested names to follow him they all seem complete nonentities devoid of charisma or ideas who would all struggle to become junior ministers at Westminster and at best would probably end up in the Whips office. Sadly the opposition are equally poor with a couple of exceptions. Some weeks ago I took an American friend to watch a plenary debate at the Senedd and frankly it was an embarrassment. The chamber was half empty. Everyone was answering E Mails on their laptops and paying no attention to any contributions. This was not surprising since the standard of debate would have disgraced a student union. God knows what my friend thought of all this after the sparkling politics of the US elections. Perhaps we do need more AMs to raise the quality and draw from a bigger pool? Perhaps I should write to that nice bloke running the All Wales convention or perhaps I should go and read a good book to cheer me up.
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Very good No.17. In 1997 when Charles Anthony Lynton Blair became PM he didnt give our Rhodri even a "bag carriers "job and clearly tried to move move heaven and earth to stop him becoming "leader" in Cardiff.He is holding together a "coalition of "old style" socialists and nationalists who basically have no affection for each other and whose basic aims are fundamentally opposite. I agree completely with you in that why would any politician with ability/guts not wish to go to Westminster rather than "serving Wales" in the murky backwater that is Cardiff Bay?.There will never be any "big" ideas of the centre right/left coming out of Cardiff but more of the same i.e. a)stand in line,b)the state know best. The point about AM's doing computer work during sessions is very relevant because if they cant be bothered listening to the "talking clock" and others then why should we?
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But then again, what point would there be in some of the best minds in politics sitting in the Assembly? Their most brilliant ideas, under the present settlement, would have to run the gauntlet of Welsh Affairs committees, the Commons, the Lords, and a public vote in the Daily Star (a little known part of the LCO process) before they could even debate them openly.
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"notislomoshyn"
'Notice of Motion' - are you sure Betsan ??
Why would the 'l' be there then ??
Are you sure this isn't something she said while you were eating your breakfast, cleaning your room, or washing the dishes ??
"Not In Slow Motion, Cariad.." might be what she was alluding to... ;-)
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"most of all, the FASCINATING battle over the future direction of the Welsh Labour Party is on. "
ER....right.
Fascinating" –adjective:
of great interest or attraction; enchanting; charming; captivating"
Betsan, ever thought you are maybe a (tad) BIT too close to the (fascinating) trees to see the Ely wood we all live in ? A bit toooooooo amiable with the (hard working, aspirational) Assembliat Service Class chez La Ponty-canna? Just a thought.
A Welsh Nick Robinson we do not need.
AND everyone knows the Revolutionary Druids Pary (RDP) is rapidly gaining ground in the Valley heartlands. Why, only last night, the Rev. Chris Bryant said to me...
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Dave,
I wouldn't say that thay were anti-Welsh, but just the element of Wales who do not have the confidence in their own nation to take on more responsibility for itself. A few of them may even object to Wales being considered a nation, but if their level of debate is what we will be facing when the campaign for a Parliament comes along, then we should be ok.
Getting back to the original issue, I was a little surprised that Leighton Andrews pulled out as he has the intellect to take on the role. However, his Liberal roots were always going to be a problem as was his enthusiastic support for housing stock transfer in RCT.
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No ianapharri they are not anti-welsh they are just blowhard right wing nationalist fanatics – constantly railing against the Welsh language, immigration, the EU. Some of them even holding the bonkers belief that Gwent (including Ebbw Vale and Abergavenny) should be annexed by England. Their fanatical traits are aptly summed up by Winston Churchill’s quote “a fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject”.
But note they never come out and declare their political allegiances. Why because they know any smokescreen of acceptably will be ripped away from them when everyone knows the vile party they follow.
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"But note they never come out and declare their political allegiances. Why because they know any smokescreen of acceptably will be ripped away from them when everyone knows the vile party they follow."
Now, now - that's no way to talk about the Labour Party ;-)
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Reply to nos. 22 and 23 (Harry and Harry's son Ian)..
Well good evening 'Harry' and 'Harry's son Ian'. In spite of my disappointment at Wales's 29-9 defeat at the hands of the Antipodean heathens, and my consumption of far too much Welsh beer and French red wine, (headaches on Sunday morning) both your posts have cheered me up no end.
'Harry's son Ian', you maintain that we lack confidence in our own nation. Well Ian Ap Harry, my nation happens to be Great Britain, and as far as the United Nations sovereign nations list is concerned, Wales doesn't even get a mention.
As for our Harry, he calls us "blowhard right wing nationalist fanatics". Well, what can I say Harry, you seem to have summed us up nicely.
You do however spoil everything by quoting Winston Churchill (regarded by many as a ........blowhard rightwing nationalist fanatic) He said..."A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject"
Now excuse me for mentioning this but that sounds awfully like a good description of Plaid Cymru to me. Only the addition of 'bullying' and 'scheming' seems to be missing from the perfect description of this noxious little organization.
Finally Harry, you seem disappointed because you don't know our/my political allegiance. Well Harry me lad, I'm really not quite sure what the hell it is.
You can be sure though, that I shall be casting my vote in whichever way does the most damage to your beloved Plaid Cymru.
In fact you could say I belong to the "Tactical vote" party.
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The problem is that many people are failing to understand the following principles.
They seem to assume that everyone who is 'anti-EU' supports the same party. Unless Tony Benn and Daniel Hannan have upped sticks and moved to the Lib Dems, this is news to me.
The next is that anyone who asks searching questions about the Welsh Language Act must be a monoglot English speaker. This is not the case - Welsh is my first language.
[Although anyone reading my posts on Mr Roderick's blog might doubt this, as level of grammar would give my old Welsh teacher kittens and rupture a blood vessel]
And that anyone who opposes further law making powers for the Assembly must be a crazed anti-welsh neocon. I just don't see that can be the case for everyone who is asking what the 'end vision' of this process is. We joined up the old 'common market' as a 'free trade area'. Yeah, right..
I am happy to 'let the people decide' how much or how little devolution of power takes place. I just make the following little observations.
1/ If Plaid Cymru really believe that there is a groundswell of support for having similar powers to Scotland, why aren't they now planning for a referendum, and clearing a date in the calendar for one ??
2/ Will they, once they have a date, swear an oath that this will be the 'end result' of the process for a generation, and that no further 'salami slicing' will take place, and that they, similar to the 'Good Friday', relinquish plans for Independence ?
3/ If they will not, why don't they have the honesty to admit that they are not happy with a move to 'Scottish Powers, and be as open and upfront as Alex Salmond by saying that their goal is 'Independence' and make THAT the subject of the next Referendum, so that EVERYONE knows exactly where they stand ??
I repeat, I am happy to 'trust the people' so long as ALL the parties are completely open and transparent about what their plans are, what legislation they have in the pipeline, get their 'hidden agendas' out in the open, and confirm what their 'end game' is.
Given that the Union has been around for a couple of hundred years, I'm not convinced that it is going to disappear in the next yr or two - and I just think people have to be honest and pragmatic about that situation, and not start promising their supporters some form of 'Promised Land' which in their heart of hearts knows won't be delivered.
Many aspects of our British constitutional settlement seem anomalous. The House of Lords, for example. But they helped against the draconian powers for 42 day detention.
On other areas, such as Lisbon, ID Cards and surveillance they've been less good.
Prince Charles is a bugbear for many, but he is more in tune with farmers in Wales on subjects like GM Foods and protecting the country way of life than many on the left would admit [well, in public anyway...].
If it ain't really broke, you'd better be darn sure you have something hugely better to put on the table, before we give permission to start fixing it...
The quibble about 'Is Wales a Nation' is also a fatuous one coming from people who would quite happily sign to a 'Single Nation called Europe'..
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harri,
Your "declare their political allegiances"
I can and do, I vote Liberal Democrat, the closest to my Centrist position.
I don't use the term 'bonkers', but you have shown me the way.
lordBeddGelert, succinct.
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#26 lBG wrote:
"We joined up the old 'common market' as a 'free trade area'. Yeah, right.. "
You should read a serious book about the history of the EEC, and the ECSC before you make simplistic blanket statements.
Btw, Churchill had been a strong proponent of European unity. Despite the urgings of federalists such as Spinelli, the movement for unity faltered after the war, especially after Churchill's electoral defeat. Britain, almost alone, has opposed integration the 1950s. That opposition has been from powerful vested interest groups in England which control the press and the media. The people of these islands have been bombarded with a torrent of anti-European propaganda for as long as I can remember, and that's quite a long time.
Its a pity that an independent Wales hadn't been a full member of the EU, to have the benefits which Ireland has had and is having. Instead Wales has been given small handouts, in drips and drabs. which has mde little difference to its weak under-invested economy. The Redwoods of this world handed money back to the UK Treasury. I want a Wales that can be at the heart of Europe. Its culture and traditions are not those of hanging on to the trappings of empire and Britain's long history of colonialism which has left so much of the world in an absolute mess. The state that the Middle East and much of Africa is in today is the result of Britain's interference and domination.
#2 lBG
"bless her little cotton socks... "; "Catch yourself on, sweetie... "; "Give me strength, dear - when you've clocked up a few more years you may develop a bit more pragmatism and learn what is really important.."
I'm no great fan of Bethan's, but you really really are sexist and patronising in the extreme. Have you learnt pragmatism and what is really important? I suspect only what's really important to lordBeddGelert.
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#27 TheStonemason wrote:
"...I vote Liberal Democrat, the closest to my Centrist position."
You'd vote in favour of a federal UK, in that case?
Why then do you oppose a Welsh Parliament, with limited legislative powers? In a federal UK, each constituent Parliament would control the administration of justice, the police, pensions and social security, and much of fiscal and monetary policy. Defence and foreign affairs would be retained by central government.
With your views on the issue it would make much more sense to be voting Tory, UKIP, or even an unmentionable party. The Tories are less extreme than you in their position on further devolution for Wales.
Mind you, rumour has it that Clegg is to the right of the Tories on most things.
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#26 lBG wrote:
"If it ain't really broke, you'd better be darn sure you have something hugely better to put on the table, before we give permission to start fixing it..."
The UK sounds pretty 'broke' to me, at least compared to almost all its counterparts in the community of nation-states. Darling is about to put us into hock for decades, after McBroon's 11 years in charge of the economy, where he sold off the gold reserves for peanuts and failed to regulate the banks. Most of the UK's major banks have had to be nationalised or semi-nationalised to prevent them going bankrupt. No more 'boom and bust' he said... but we're in for the worst recession in living memory.
Add to that some of the concessions you mention. We already live in a surveillance state. More CCTV and ANPR cameras than in any other country. We're about to be put on a massive ID register which will track everything we do from birth to grave. Brown wants to extend detention without charge to six weeks, and to monitor all our telephone calls and emails. Sounds like the making of a police state to me.
Then there's the farce which was Iraq, farcical but for the fact that hundreds of thousands of innocent people died as a result. Compound it with the stupidity of involvement in an unwinnable conflict in Afghanistan, also killing large numbers of innocents and deaths of young, mainly poorly educated recruits, many from Wales. All paid for with your taxes and mine and costing billions. We're also going to be paying billions more for a new nuclear deterrent, and becoming a target for Russia's missiles when the US puts its new anti-missile technology here. Plus two gigantic new aircraft carriers.
How about the UK's democratic deficiency - the first past the post voting system - which allows the likes of Thatcher and Blair to govern for years with massive majorities in Parliament, but with a minority of the total votes cast? We also have the unelected House of Lords, including 93 hereditary members from the aristocracy and Bishops of the Church of England. 'Cash for peerages' might come to mind and the corruption scandals of the last 30 years. How about the cost of the Royal Family and their strong military connections - how many of them are there on the civil list?
I won't get on to the state of the UK's infrastructure, hospitals (waiting lists etc), schools, roads and railways and airports because they speak for themselves. The UK has pro rata the by far the highest prison population of any western democracy (except the US) and its costing us billions to run them.
The UK's treatment of the elderly is appalling. The worst state pensions in the EU. They've been shamed into restoring the link with wage rises - from 2012.
How about massive uncontrolled levels of illegal immigration? The government has no idea how many there are even. We're on an island, for goodness' sake! How's that for incompetence, writ large?
Finally, how about those pieces of paper in your wallet with the queen's head on them?
McBroon's done such a great job that they've fallen substantially in value against all the major currencies. When Britain does enter the eurozone, as it surely will, our savings and wages will be worth a lot less than they would have been had we entered eight years ago.
And you say it ain't broke? Where have you been living for the last 40 years?
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brynt41,
Because I vote Liberal Democrat, it doesn't mean I have to agree with every part of their manifesto, for example, I support the Nuclear power option, I oppose the WAG because it gives little value over and above what a Local Authority provides, at a considerable cost, though there is the exception of 'no charge prescription' which should benefit everybody in the UK not just Wales.
Conservatives shout "private good, public bad." Socialists shout "public good, private bad." By contrast, the centrist movement would use both the private and public sectors (often in combination) to creatively solve problems. This is where I sit.
You challenge my political position by offering me the options of Tory, UKIP, or even an unmentionable party. It is true I could vote Tory, I voted for Thatcher in each of her election years, UKIP is another matter, I have no taste for their politics, as for an unmentionable party, I have to assume you mean the SNP or PC or BNP, each are beyond the pale.
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#31
In context, as both the SNP and PC seek self-determination which is anathema to you, then it could only mean the other.
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brynt41,
the three parties, SNP or PC or BNP, are each beyond the pale.
SNP or PC are both somewhat like the Israelites fleeing the Egyptians, except here the only hurts are imaginary, and without Jehovah, it is the British taxpayers in support.
BNP, who knows what they are up to, nothing in Caerphilly I warrant. This insult implied is water off a ducks back.
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Like you Stonemason I am a Liberal Democrat. But I must take issue with you lumping the SNP and PC with the BNP. Even if you don’t agree with it, Welsh and Scottish Independence is a perfectly legitimate aim whereas the BNP are an avowedly racist party that play on peoples base instincts and has such nasty policies as wanting to outlaw homosexuality, is lead by a man who has been convicted of a racist assault and was formed by a man who used to dress up in SS uniform on the Fuhrer birthday.
And as for Noah_sembly – to refuse to use the name Harri when referring to me because it is Welsh. Well frankly I pity you.
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Harri,
I lumped the BNP with the other two deliberately because of brynt41s PC comfort zone, brynt41 was implying I might be comfortable with the BNP.
In fact I haven't a clue what they are about, I've seen their leader on the TV, comes across as a bit of a bully.
I guess I was meant to be insulted, too liberal for that.
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#35
"I guess I was meant to be insulted, too liberal for that."
Your guess was wrong, as no insult was meant or implied.
Its difficult to understand why you vote for an avowedly federal party, when you are so strongly against even the pitiful level of devolution Wales has. There are other parties which are less sympathetic to devolution, or appear more unionist.
Its also insulting for those of us who desire self-determination for our nation and its people, when, out of pure ignorance, that desire is conflated with the national socialist regimes of the 30s and 40s, which were unavowedly racist, militaristic, and expansionist.
Its true, I would like to see Wales as a sovereign nation. In my opinion its people would have greater dignity, and a better future. If it ever happens, and that's a very big IF, it will be by democratic argument and persuasion. It can only ever happen if a majority vote for it. I wouldn't want it any other way. Being realistic (I think) I can't see it happening in my lifetime, if ever, as the better part of it has passed.
Therefore I can't understand how some people can feel threatened by my desire. They wouldn't want to deny the people of Wales their independence, if such a desire was expressed democratically, would they?
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Message 34, Quote from dear Harry......"As for Noah Sembly,to refuse to use the name Harri when referring to me because it is Welsh. Well frankly I pity you".
Well dear Harry. What a dictatorial little chap you've turned out to be. I hope everyone reading this can see just where the forced imposition of the Welsh language is leading us all.
I speak English, and I'm proud to say, English only.(well OK then, some Cardiff French as well) I have never used the name Harri, nor ever will.
Exactly the same as I will never use the place name Barri, only the name Barry. Never use Caerphilli, only Caerphilly.Does this mean I'll be reported to the Cymraeg police????
Just as you insist on speaking your little used minority language, so I insist on speaking ENGLISH, the language spoken by ALL the inhabitants of Wales. Don't come the old Welsh language bully on here Harry, you really are out of our depth.
Oh and by the way Harry, I think you know just what you can do with your 'pity' !
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Now, now Noah, I think you are being a little bit rude, not to say misguided in a way which does not help your cause.
Harri may very well be what this chap was christened with.
The arguments about place names I will leave for another time, although I do think it is a tad silly that on some Plaid Cymru websites, if one chooses Welsh one sees 'Ynys Mon' and if one chooses English one doesn't see 'Anglesey' but, well, 'Ynys Mon'...
But I can see that this, whilst seeming a bit silly, does mean that, for example, Ceredigion can be used by Cardiganshire as a single 'web address' which simplifies like immensely.
To be honest, Noah, your ire would better be directed at the likes of 'Meri Huws' who I would bet a pound to a penny has the name 'Mary' on her birth certificate, although I guess with 'deed polls' one can be called whatever one wants.
But what do you do if you meet people when travelling abroad - I'm sure you don't insist on an 'english' pronunciation of Mr Lacroix or Mrs Gucci. Or maybe you do...
Anyway, I guess if things were a bit more chilled in Wales and people weren't pushing things down each others throats there would less of the sort of 'blowback' one gets from children forced to eat their greens 'or they won't grow up to be big and strong and healthy'.. "Shan't !!! "
Perhaps Betsan should invite some people into the BBC studios [stiwdios ?], get the costume department to provide her with a bouffant wig and some 'Edna Everage' style glasses and announce, Mrs Merton style..
"Let's have a heaated debaaate !!"
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Bethan Jenkins has a post on her blog headed up 'Discussion on a Yes vote'. In case she is to 'frit' to post it, her it is for all of you to read..
"Good grief - your sense of priorities are absolutely laughable.
At the same time you lot are reneging on promises for what to do with the current powers, you are planning for how to get more powers to be equally incompetent with.
While the downturn is hoovering up jobs all you are concerned about is hoovering up yet more power, prestige and expenses to massage your already over inflated egos... "
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#37 Noah wrote:
"Never use Caerphilli, only Caerphilly.Does this mean I'll be reported to the Cymraeg police????"
Do you have to show your ignorance at every turn, Noah? Its Caerffili in Welsh. I'd bet you were the one sitting at the back of the class, at school, not listening, perhaps thinking up silly (not silli) arguments.
Tip - if you make elementary mistakes, it undermines ALL you say, but then, you only say one thing: "Look how useless the Assembly is, let's get rid it" (and, by implication, return to the even more useless government we suffered under previously).
A more constructive argument would be: "Look how useless the Assembly is, let's replace it with something much better".
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#39 lBG wrote:
"While the downturn is hoovering up jobs all you are concerned about is hoovering up yet more power".
You've got Merthyr on the brain, again. I take it the comment on Bethan's blog was yours. You seem to have it in for her, with your sexist and patronising remarks in #2, and which I already commented on in #28.
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brynt - Sadly, this is not the case. I am all for having more women in politics. Helen Mary Jones is doing a pretty good job as Llanelli AM.
This idea that one cannot criticise a female MP or AM without being labelled 'sexist' is fatuous.
Nadine Dorries MP being an example. She has hideous anti-diluvian views, and is beastly to gypsies - it is that which I object to, not the fact that she is a woman.
As for being 'patronising', I'm afraid Bethan Jenkins just sets herself up for it, by making the asinine suggestion that Paul Murphy and Peter Hain are treating AMs like children. Well, I guess if they didn't behave so childishly with ridiculous stunts like wanting to remove the need to swear loyalty to the Queen, and boycotting the opening of the 'Senedd', then they would have a bit more chance of being taken a bit more seriously by people like me.
But I'm a fair-minded chap. And pragmatic.
I will wait to see, as they say in the States, "Where's the beef ?" If 'One Wales turn up trumps with jobs and renewal I would be more than happy to eat a big helping of 'Humble Pie'.
What worries me, brynt, as a fellow Welsh person, is that Plaid Cymru, and to a lesser extent Welsh Labour, don't realise that 'They've never had it so good..' - There is another old saying which I will adapt for their benefit..
"If you don't like our Barnett Formula apples, then quit shaking the Westminster Money Tree.."
Food for thought there, food for thought...
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#42 lbG wrote:
"ridiculous stunts like wanting to remove the need to swear loyalty to the Queen"
Bethan and Leanne are republicans, as are many other politicians and others such as, Roy Hattersley, Paul Flynn, Tony Benn, Stephen Pound, Peter Tatchell, Polly Toynbee, Claire Rayner, Michael Mansfield QC and Anthony Scrivener QC.
I totally agree with their sentiments, also favouring a republic over a class-ridden, aristocratic, militaristic, hereditary, over-indulgent, expensive Anglo-German monarchy. A republic with a democratically elected (honorary, non-political) head of state, similar to that in Ireland, where they have had two excellent female presidents. I would be of that view, even were I not Welsh. To call people's views 'ridiculous', when they are sincerely held and with ample justification, simply because they differ from yours displays an arrogance which belies your claim to be a 'fair-minded... and pragmatic... chap'.
As for 'we've never had it so good' under Welsh Labour, whatever that is, where have you been for the last twelve months? That's the same old propagandist claptrap that the people of Wales have been buried under for centuries and many, such as you still believe it. How come Wales is one of the poorest countries in western Europe? (Look at the OECD and other statistics)
Its been a boom on a massive borrowing spree, and we're headed for probably the worst recession in living memory.
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Calm down Bryn.
You obviously find it difficult to understand,but the overwhelming majority of Welsh people have, (all their lives) used Harry, Caerphilly, and Barry.
Why we should change this at the behest of some nationalist buffoons, Gawd only knows.
This is just the thin end of the wedge for the Welsh langauge fanatics. You have forced the public sector to pointlessly use the Welsh language, so now are concentrating on the general public and the private sector.
Unfortunately for you, there are a huge number of Welsh people out there who, (unlike some supermarket companies) will not be intimidated.
I wonder how many other readers of this blog will have noticed the distinct change of attitude in your posts. Obviously you are now being assisted by some of the "hard men" engaged in controlling these and other fora.
Good to see you all obeying the orders of your President.
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brynt41 your #35
"Therefore I can't understand how some people can feel threatened by my desire. They wouldn't want to deny the"
My blog post today .....
It is scandalous and heads should roll, thus spake C Evans of Aberystwyth in today's Western Mail.
The writer, not sure on the gender, accuses the WAG of employing "English-based" contractors, the WAG for allowing Local Authorities to award contracts to contractors from "across the border", everything from school dinners to roof insulation, and finishes with .....
"The profit inevitably goes back into England’s economy, benefiting England’s ratepayers and does absolutely nothing for the future economic prosperity of Wales in this dire economic climate."
..... can the writer be informed that "England’s economy" is part of the UK economy, just as the Welsh, Scots and Northern Ireland economies are part of the UK economy, and .....
..... we all benefit. And just for the record, thousands of Welsh people settle throughout the UK without the constant abuse from the dispossessed of Wales, and remember that most of our surplus output is consumed within the UK, including by English people, you don't hear them carp on about the profits going to Wales.
Pathetic, and the Nationalist want us to trust them with our future, with the logic of C Evans of Aberystwyth ? I don't think so.
..... and there you have 'part of' it.
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#44 Noah
Just pointing out the correct Welsh spelling.
Btw, I understand that the derivation of 'Barry' is from the French.. 'de Barri', so that the Welsh name is actually more correct.
Very many Welsh place names have been anglicised over the centuries. A good example is 'Landore', in Swansea, derived from 'Glandwr', which immigrants, mainly from over the border, couldn't pronounce correctly, hence Landore.
Of course, there are many place names that are not Welsh at all, particularly in S. Pembrokeshire or in parts of Monmouthshire, as West-Wales has hastened to point out. There are Welsh place names in England, quite a few in Shropshire. Malvern is derived from 'Moel Fryn', and even Dover, from 'dwfwr'.
To accept that Welsh names should be permanently blotted out through anglicisation is short-sighted. It happened in a less enlightened age, when people were less aware of rights and sensitivities, when industrial capitalism and exploitation went unchecked. We no longer live in such a time, but recognise that minorities not only have rights but they are a valuable part of society.
West-Wales makes a valid point that even in largely Welsh-speaking parts of Wales, there are minorities, which need to be treated sensitively where language issues are concerned.
Its ridiculous to suggest that a minority can exert control over a majority, in a democracy. That won't work, Water doesn't run uphill. The Welsh Language, and legislation concerning it, can only progress with consensus, and goodwill.
You can spell Barry or Caerphilly in any way you like, as far as I'm concerned.
I suspect that your motivation, though, is more deep seated, because you perceive a threat which not only doesn't exist, but cannot exist. Perhaps the language, for you is an irritant, an inconvenience, best dispensed with altogether. In that way, maybe, those of us who do speak it, and for whom it is our native ltongue, have more to fear from you, and those who think like you. Have you ever considered it from that point of view?
Your attitude would result at best, in the Welsh Language only being able to stand its ground, or continue to decline. 'So far, and no further!' is what you really mean, as I understand it.
Thankfully most people in Wales, and even in the UK's central government, are more enlightened in this day and age as far as minority languages are concerned.
I'm heartened also by the significant numbers of people, particularly from England, who have come to Wales to make their home, and who have taken the trouble to learn Welsh, and/or to see that their children learn it. It puts me to shame, as perhaps I wouldn't have done that had I not learnt it as child on the hearth.
"Obviously you are now being assisted by some of the "hard men" engaged in controlling these and other fora."
My views are entirely my own, so please, no conspiracy theories. Like you, I don't like the idea of being dictated to, whether its by the Tories, Labour or PC.
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More tosh from Bethan Jenkins...
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/welsh-politics/welsh-politics-news/2008/10/30/us-election-can-help-heal-rift-91466-22152112/
Speaking about a British Council initiative to improve transatlantic relations, she abuses her hosts hospitality [ a jolly to Ireland ??]by choosing to diss one of the democratically selected choices for the Presidency of the said 'United States' days before the Election !!!
Fine work, Bethan, a career in the diplomatic service must surely await !!!
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Gosh, brynt @46 - a far more enlightened post - could this be 'peace in our time' ?
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Betsan:
What is ""Notislomoshyn"" means ....since, I am not a welsh speaker....
~Dennis Junior~
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