Never
Two years ago, almost to the day, Peter Hain, then Welsh Secretary, spoke to the Western Mail about Welsh Labour and Proportional Representation in local government. He used the 'never' word.
"The policy of Welsh Labour, adopted unanimously at our special conference on Saturday, is emphatic. Welsh Labour will not consider and would never accept any move towards PR in local government in Wales."
The rub comes in the next line of the story:
'Both Mr Hain and First Minister Rhodri Morgan have emphatically rejected PR in local government, thus effectively ruling out any chance of a coalition with the Liberal Democrats if Labour fails to win an overall majority next May'.
Two years on the First Minister returns to the 'never' word. But in his contribution to the IWA's Politics in 21st Century Wales his use of the same word tells an entirely different story:
"Looking ahead ... then this is an issue which I do not believe that the Labour Party in Wales can responsibly consign to Never Never Land".
In fact he's in favour of 'Permissive PR' where local councils could hold a referendum on bringing in PR if enough local people were keen on change. How many is 'enough'? How would the referendum be triggered? Would it be legal? When I know, I'll tell you.
Why is he in favour?
Because the First Minister is certain Labour would do better in Pembrokeshire, Ceredigion, Ynys Mon and Gwynedd under PR and because "without winning in the west, Labour cannot win Wales". Not exactly Grav's 'West is best' but a pretty clear 'Don't retreat to the rest'.
And because not working out a different position on PR will tie the hands of a future Labour leader who wants to pick up the phone to a future Lib Dem leader - perhaps Kirsty Williams who some twenty pages later in the same book argues for "no truce without PR".
When Peter Black attempted to gain the powers to introduce PR in local government elections in Wales Rhodri Morgan's explanation for voting in favour was that he'd simply pressed the wrong button.
Was it less finger trouble and more like the hand of friendship after all?
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~49~RS~)
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My My Looks like more "original" thought from our Rhodri which will open open more debate between Cardiff/Westminster. Could this be the way to get Lib Dems back on board and then DISH THE NATS and everybody happy except the partners in One Wales government who happen to be THE NATS.As Ron once said were moving into an era of "new politics" and was he rright. Apparently the last tune on the Titanic was "things can only get better" well lets hope it doesnt apply to us.
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Very insightful post. It seems Labour are very keen on giving them a way of getting out of the coalition with Plaid.
It's a good idea from their point of view. Many of them found the concessions to Plaid too difficult to deal with in the first place. Remember Kim Howells referring to the One Wales government giving Plaid more than they have achieved in "50 years"?
The Lib Dems, from Jenny Randerson's comments at least, seem keen on entering government, while Plaid have gone into government for a purpose - to deliver a clear programme of policies, many of which are ideologically difficult for Labour to stomach.
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#2
"Plaid have gone into government for a purpose - to deliver a clear programme of policies, many of which are ideologically difficult for Labour to stomach."
I had come to the conclusion years ago that Labour has no ideology, other than to get power and to keep it, at any price. That was Blair's most positive contribution to the party. Brown has inherited it, and Rhodri is further debasing himself by adopting it.
What's he and the party going to do when they've done the dirty on any and all possible coalition partners? Don't forget, these people were elected by us, not as a convenience for Labour's exploitation.
The lesson which the electorate will eventually learn, and they're already learning it, is that Labour cannot be trusted. Their word is not their bond. A disloyal and disingenuous party. They'll tinker with the electoral system for party advantage. Dangerous for democracy, dangerous for Labour.
Imo, the LibDems will be even more stupid that IWJ, to have another agreement with Labour. But it wouldn't surprise me, with the likes of Peter Black in their ranks.
I noted, with a smile, Kirsty Williams' answer to the question below:
"What is the biggest mistake you have made in your political career?
Appointing Peter Black as my agent in the 1997 General Election, you never know with someone else I may have overturned that huge Labour majority in Ogmore! In general I think it is best to learn from your mistakes and not dwell on them. "
I guess I know who Peter won't be voting for in the leadership election.
Last word for Ieuan. Time to pull the plug, cut your losses, before they make you look a total jackass - imho.
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Urr, brynt41, Kirsty Williams's comment on her 'biggest mistake' was supposed to be a light-hearted joke. Peter Black is one of her main backers. We do know who he will be voting for in the leadership contest - her.
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#4
It hadn't gone unnoticed, don't worry, did you see the word 'smile'?
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The Plaid agenda is as pointed out in #2
"to deliver a clear programme of policies, many of which are ideologically difficult for Labour to stomach".
It is not just Labour who find Plaid's agenda difficult to stomach - the majority of Wales seem to oppose Plaid's political view.
Labour must be looking for a way out, bonding with the Lib,Dems and relegating Plaid to opposition has to be a tempting prospect.
However - most successful local government seems to be delivered by Independents.
Take Pembrokeshire excellent service delivery and the lowest Council Tax in Wales.
The further we can keep political machinations and intrigue away from front line delivery of services the better.
The last thing we need is PR in local councils.
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If pembrokeshire is the best example of a non political council then god help us all! Chief Executive paid £160,000 plus, over half of all services rated "could do better", dodgy planning consent for the council leader etc, etc.
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