The LCO recipe
One of your comments asked for an explanation of LCOs - what are they?
I have had a couple of bashes at explaining LCOs in the past - here's one here but today Hywel Williams MP has come up with Plaid's version.
HOW TO MAKE AN LCO
We have identified a minimum of 27 different actions to occur in creating an LCO
1. Announcement of LCO or ballot made (there could be other pre-LCO stages in the case of a ballot where it must be submitted or by an Assembly committee as the result of a petition)
2. Negotiation between Cardiff Bay & Whitehall on LCO text
3. Agreement of Cardiff Bay & Whitehall on LCO text ('Whitehall clearance')
4. WAG Minister lays proposed order in Plenary and accepted by vote
5. WAG Minister sends copy to Sec of State
6. Business Committee starts legislative committee in Assembly
7. Assembly Committee opens consultation
8. Sec of State publishes draft for pre-legislative scrutiny and invites Welsh Affairs Committee to scrutinise LCO
9. Sec of State invites Constitution Committee to scrutinise LCO
10. Welsh Affairs Committee asks for submissions
11. Assembly committee and WAC meet jointly or consecutively to take evidence - this has usually been consecutively and therefore could conceivably be 2 stages in the process
12. Constitution Committee scrutinises LCO
13. Assembly committee write report
14. Welsh Affairs committee write report
15. Westminster Government responds to WAC report
16. WAG & London Govt agree text after committee recommendations
17. WAG Minister lays draft order before Assembly
18. Assembly discuss and vote on LCO in plenary
19. First Minister informs Sec of State that LCO has passed or that the draft order was rejected by the Assembly, in which case it would fall
20. LCO is laid before both Houses of Parliament
21. Joint Committee of Statutory Instruments Scrutiny
22. Merits of Statutory Instruments Committee Scrutiny
23. House of Lords debates draft Order
24. Delegated Legislation Committee to discuss LCO
25. House of Commons passes draft Order without debate
26. Sec of State for Wales recommends Her Majesty in Council to make order.
27. Her Majesty makes the order
The Welsh Assembly now has the Measure making powers applied for in the Legislative Competence Order and may choose to make a Measure within these powers.
Hywel Williams wasn't present at the Welsh Affairs Committee meeting when the report on the Affordable Housing LCO was agreed - the one that's led to fellow MP Adam Price talking about "a potential constitutional crisis". As Mr Williams put it: "I hadn't been at the meeting. But that doesn't mean I agree with it - not at all."
You just suspect then that one or two of Hywel Williams' Plaid colleagues might be tempted to pencil in "turning up" as point 14.5.
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~48~RS~)
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Absolutely ridiculous !! And people wonder where all the Welsh tax money is being spent !! Someone seriously needs to send in a 'Business Process Re-engineering' team to put a rocket up the backside of whoever designed this system.
As if there isn't enough bureaucracy coming our way from Brussels, we have to start inventing layers of bureaucracy here. And this is before the WAG has 'law making powers'...
Give me strength...
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Also this tells us how to make an 'LCO' but not what it IS. Or even what it stands for. This is again reminiscent of EUroland, where the poor citizens are the least important part of the process, and can cheerfully be bamboozled as they don't really need to be involved in the process at all.
There is a real danger here of the Cardiff Bay 'taffia' just making and reporting decisions between themselves without consulting with, or caring about, the people at all.
'Plus ca change..' and all that..
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This reminds me of one of those 1970s 'job creation' schemes brought in where jobs were being lost due to the economy being badly mismanaged...
Er, hang on...
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Right, I am super-annoyed now !!
"We are talking salami slicing of powers after all. It'll be more Black Pudding than Black Rod - more solid than showy.
How do they gain those new powers? To those of you unfamiliar with the wonderful world of Legislative Competence Orders or LCOs (pronounced by most of us a bit like Tesco's) it goes a bit like this:...."
The media is going native here, and failing in its duty to inform the electorate what is going on... [I, for one, don't pronounce 'Tesco' as 'TESS-see-oh', so this sounds like fatuous jargon of the kind John Humphrys would jump on if it were uttered on the Today programme]
There is talk above of 'Salami Slicing' -this is news to me !! I thought the LCOs were just 'Welsh laws' WITHIN THE CONFINES OF THE BOX OF POWERS HANDED TO WALES BY THE HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT.
It now seems that this ridiculous jumped-up institution is trying to steal more powers from Westminster in scope creep reminiscent of the 'Ever Closer Union' tosh spoken by the EU Commission and just as stealthy !!
This needs to be brought to a far wider audience because it is about time that the Welsh Assembly Government is put back in its box, before it starts to get ideas above its station, and its appetite is whetted for an ever-increasing 'land grab' of powers which DON'T BELONG to it.
It is bad enough that the sovereignty of Parliament, which is what we vote for at the General Election, let's not forget is being eroded by the EU and now eroded on the Home Front as well !! This has got to stop before we find we are 'sleepwalking to segregation' from the rest of the UK, which is not what anyone has ever voted for !!
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Betsan great to see you read the Blog - hope you find the debates interesting & perhaps useful.
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lordBeddGelert, your .....
'sleepwalking to segregation'
The biggie is coming soon with 'The Welsh Language Act'. And it will accompanied by a tsunami of Welsh indignation when any opposition to it is shown. Common terms will include Ant-Welsh, traitor, and British Nats.
This will be another political cudgel with which the Nationalists will beat English speakers, Unionists in particular. Naturally the Nationalists will be wearing sackcloth and ashes, uniform of the downtrodden underclass of Welsh speakers, whilst the beatings take place, symbolically speaking, lest I offend the sensitive.
.
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lordBeddGelert an LCO is a Legislative Competence Order. At the moment the National Assembly for Wales has limited Primary Legislative Powers, it has wider secondary legislative powers, ie the powers to carry out duties given to it by the original Government of Wales Act and those subsequently conferred on it by acts of the Westminster Parliament (in England it would be conferred on a minister by the same act).
LCOs widen the narrow powers currently available to the National Assembly by creating permission to legislate in a subset of a devolved subject area. For example rather than giving primary powers over the whole subject area of Education it would give the National Assembly powers over say the sale of school playing fields. It will not specify what the law (called a Measure) will be, so in theory there could be several Measures arising from one LCO. The argument is how permissive they should be. The intent of the framers was that they were to be generally permissive. However the row is how wide Welsh MPs want the LCOs to be drawn, as the wider it is the more latitude the National Assembly has and there for the greater their powers (and conversely the less the powers of Parliament).
No secret conspiracy to enlarge the powers of the National Assembly (unless you count an Act of Parliament as a secret conspiracy).
The Government of Wales Act that created this structure was the response of the Westminster Government to the Richard Commission, that took evidence from the public and suggested a full legislative Parliament for Wales, with a brief period of transition where LCOs could be used to transfer powers to the National Assembly.
The Government of Wales Act was a watered down response to the Richard Commission Report. It was designed to placate the anti devolution wing of the Labour Party while at the same time throwing some crumbs at the pro devolutionists within the Labour Party.
It creates a shifting lace doily of legislative permission for the Assembly, not very satisfactory and seen above cumbersome in the extreme - and the chart does not begin to show the post LCO procedure for creating a Measure.
Obviously the system would have been simpler if the National Assembly had been given general competence with reserved powers for Westminster, as was done for Scotland. But we are stuck with what we have until we win the referendum to convert the National Assembly into a Parliament, as laid out in the second Government of Wales Act,
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Please could we be a bit less hysterical about this?
A Legislative Competence Order (LCO) is not a way for ?this ridiculous jumped-up institution is trying to steal more powers from Westminster?, it is a device, devised, instituted and voted into law by the British Parliament to allow transfer authority to the Welsh Assembly to draw up Assembly Measures (or 'Welsh laws' as some people refer to them) in certain narrowly defined fields. These fields were decided on by Parliament so they can hardly be described as 'an ever-increasing 'land grab' of powers which DON'T BELONG to it' on the part of the Assembly. There is no secret to this and it is not some kind of underhand nationalist plot. Peter Hain (who could hardly be described as a Welsh Nationalist) was responsible for drawing up the whole scheme.
The LCO should not be confused with the actual law ? all it does is permit the Assembly to make the law. The Government of Wales Act 2006 sets out the policy areas (the act calls them 'fields' of policy') where the Assembly can request the power to make Measures (in defined policy 'matters' within each 'field') and clearly sets our that it is for Parliament to decide if it is appropriate for the power to make the Measure to be granted (and issue the appropriate LCO) and for the Assembly to draft and vote on the Measure itself.
It may well be that the current problems are a result of a complicated system needing to bed down, or they may be a sign that it is unlikely to work well in its present form.
But it is an overly complicated system ? not even the civil servants and politicians involved seem to understand it properly. I think its unique in that every other devolved or state legislature I can think of has a clear remit of where it can ? and can't legislate.
Where I do agree with you Lord Beddgelert is that the current set up is ridiculous. We need to clearly define the powers and responsibilities of the Welsh Assembly and I think the best way to do this is to enact part 4 of the Government of Wales Act to cleanly and clearly devolve law making powers in the fields of authority already within the remit of the Assembly as soon as possible. Anti-devolutionists seem to think this is a step towards independence but I can't see why that has to be the case. If, as many posters here claim, nearly everyone in Wales is against independence (and the polls back this up) why would Wales having a devolved legislature (like Western Australia, New Mexico or Alberta ? where support for independence is non-existent) be anything for unionists to worry about?
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LCO - Ludicrously Complex Order. Any other interesting suggestions?
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Old_Miwl, your .....
'If, as many posters here claim, nearly everyone in Wales is against independence ........... be anything for unionists to worry about?'
The fundamental difference is that Wales, unlike Western Australia or New Mexico or Alberta, has a very active organisation whose primary aim is a 'decentralised socialist republic'.
It's quite difficult to ignore.
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"Peter Hain (who could hardly be described as a Welsh Nationalist) was responsible for drawing up the whole scheme."
Suddenly everything about this whole process is becoming a whole lot clearer !! If it has his fingerprints all over it, the 'shape-shifting' becomes a lot easier to understand.
The Stonemason - The annoying this is, my first language is Welsh and I am a supporter of many of the steps taken to help it along - but forcing people who don't speak it down a route they don't want to go will not help.
The example of legislation and council minutes in Pembroke is one. Also, what would happen to the lovely 'family-run' cafe in Llansteffan if they were forced to translate all their menus into Welsh ??
I can understand how this might work for a large hotel chain, but this kind of 'burden', along with all the other bureaucracy small business has to deal with might be the death knell for these small employers, just so I can read 'Byrgyrs a Sglodion' when 90% of Welsh speakers I converse with call them 'chips'. [Or I suppose Tsips..?]
The papers and news are full of Welsh jobs being lost at Hoover, Bosch and many many more - what is the Welsh Assembly Govt doing about this ? This is what should be the Top of the Intray - not fatuous debates about how many angels can dance on the head on an 'LCO'..
Tynnwch eich bys mas - Nawr !!!
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Old_Miwl - An excellent summary of the legislation and its history ? thank you
The problem is that, LCO?s currently on the agenda are controversial and are unlikely to be supported by the majority of the electorate.
6 months ago the Assembly was tolerated and devolution was seen as probably a good thing, now the mood seems to have changed ? enforcement of the WLA on small councils has had a massive negative impact.
More generally across Wales the economic situation is highlighting the WAG inability to act constructively or to be able to provide realistic ideas to help the Welsh people.
The WAG is busy adding cost burdens onto the population, with it seems no recognition that there is a problem.
The mood now, as I read it, is that the Assembly is a luxury we can do without. We don?t need this grandiose talking shop and the bunch of 60 overpaid AM?s with all the civil service trappings, why waste our taxes nonsense and duplication.
We would do better with a grand committee of Welsh MP?s to deal with the essentially Welsh issues and legislation.
Let?s forget LCO?s and increased powers for the Assembly ? lets have a referendum ASAP and see whether the Welsh People want it ? maybe this time the decision will be secured by more than 25% of the population.
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#1 lordBeddGelert wrote:
"Someone seriously needs to send in a 'Business Process Re-engineering' team to put a rocket up the backside of whoever designed this system."
An Atlas multi-stage inter-planetary rocket with enough fuel to reach the outer planets needs to be despatched to Neath immediately. Please broadcast the ensuing launch. Ensure trajectory is over southern Africa, so that its inhabitants can wave farewell to an old friend who campaigned for their freedom, but not for ours.
Didn't did a colleague of his, by the name of Flynn, liken him to a Star Trek character, "who liquefies at the end of each day and sleeps in a bucket to emerge in another chosen shape the following morning"?
#7 and #8
Well said, by both of you.
One would think that Wales had been governed wonderfully prior to 1998, going by the contributions of two or three people here.
A balanced "History of the Governance of Wales" (by Lyn Thomas) is worth reading:
http://members.tripod.com/~Lyn_Thomas/history.html
I wonder to which point in Wales' governmental history the anti-devolutionists would like to take us? Perhaps they'd rather abolish Wales altogether, and go back to the definition... "for Wales, read England".
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For potted history I prefer
http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/history/
If you want the truth, who knows if you were not there.
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"'The fundamental difference is that Wales, unlike Western Australia or New Mexico or Alberta, has a very active organisation whose primary aim is a 'decentralised socialist republic'. It's quite difficult to ignore."
But as several posters (and poll and general elections) keep telling us they are only supported by 10% of the electorate. Unless there is a very sudden seismic shift of opinion, or for some reason the unionist majority decide to sit back and do nothing for 20 or 30 years, Wales will not become an independent socialist republic.
Has anyone thought that perhaps the reason that New Mexico, Alberta and Western Australia do not have 'nationalist' movements may be something to do with them having significant autonomy?
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Legitimized Constitutional Obfuscation
More here:
http://walesfirst.blogspot.com/
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Penddu, like me, seems to be paying attention to the more important matters. That is there is no point debating LCO and the current devolution system, because simply it doesn't work.
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brynt41 - I don't think it is a case of taking us back to the dark days of the past. We have probably got the balance about right just now, considering the Wales devolution vote was finely balanced.
Trying to emulate the settlement in Scotland, or in Northern Ireland, without a mandate would be a disaster. Of course, if after the train has carried on for a few years, people's 'hearts and minds' choose to have further distance from Westminster, and vote for that in a referendum, fine.
My point is merely that trying to do this sort of thing 'by stealth' will lead to a democratic backlash. Politicians are funny animals - they think 'they know best' and will not always 'trust the people'... [Rather like the judges on Strictly Come Dancing...]
And they will not easily give up any new tax raising powers or legislative competence once they have them. Indeed, they will never be happy, or say 'thus far and no further' - they will just want more and more and more - like Alex Salmond.
Okay, If we all move to a situation where we want 'full independence' and vote for it, fine - but if that is not what the people want there could be, if not 'blood on the streets', then, as John Sergeant might say, 'Murder on the [Assembly] dancefloor'..
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That is 24 steps more than needed to get to Heaven.........
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And, astonishingly, the House of Lords can veto these LCOs and Gladstone's three strikes law does not apply. Welsh Language LCO will be fun.....
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#18 lordBeddGelert wrote:
"We have probably got the balance about right just now, considering the Wales devolution vote was finely balanced"
Trouble is that nobody is happy with the way it is at the moment. Its a dog's breakfast.
Support for the Assembly, and for further devolution, according to the polls which have been carried out, has increased since its inception. (I don't put that much credibility in opinion polls, but that's all we have to go on).
The present settlement, the 2006 Act, imposed by Hain and the majority of Welsh Labour MPs, plainly isn't satisfactory from anyone's point of view. Even those self-same MPs are complaining about it. Its also undeniable that its in their self-interest to oppose legislative devolution. They, of course, would deny acting in self-interest, but they would say that, wouldn't they?
So, who suffers? We all do in Wales. We get less effective government. Frustrations will build up and who knows what the consequences will be on public opinion. It could well backfire on Labour. I think it probably will, eventually.
Rhodri Morgan has a choice, either not to rock the boat, or push for reform. I think it will be the former. He's not in a strong position vis-a-vis the Welsh Labour parliamentary party, Paul Murphy, and Downing Street. Brown is an out-and-out unionist. Britishness is his mantra, again, selfish motives could be imputed for that.
I think it was a misjudgement, a naive one, on IWJ's part to enter a coalition with them. In all probability Rhodri was sincere in the agreement he made, but the naivety was in failing to see that he probably wouldn't be able to deliver what Plaid really wanted, and what essentially they entered the coalition to obtain... outright support by the Labour Party for legislative powers in a referendum.
What will Plaid have gained if they stay the course? Plainly, a little experience in government, perhaps a little more credibility if they don't make any major blunders. They will have provided stable government, but I can't see that being translated into votes. It didn't do the LibDems much good. Some of their policies will have been implemented, but so far I can't see much having been achieved in that area.
Failure to achieve a referendum, with a successful outcome could be disastrous for the party's credibility and not just among its own supporters. They will be associated with Labour's massive failures. Who will bother voting for Plaid, when it is likely to be providing more Labour government? The rationale for its existence will be tarnished.
Lastly, unless IWJ can assert himself over the LCO fiascos, he will undoubtedly look weak and increasingly foolish, by continuing to support a party which is running rings around him.
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As the Welsh economy melts down around our ears ~ Hoover, Bosch etc.. Hey, what price "the intelligent region" of dipsy IWA dreams now?
C'Mon Betsan, get a bldy GRIP..who cares about this "moving the chairs" displacement activity drivel?
Wales is about to re-enter the 70s.
THE WASTELAND REVISTED.
Lets see how devolution copes with that?
THIS is the test.
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This, ultimately, is the 'Italian Style' nonsense one ends up with when one ditches 'First Past The Post' for a cawdel of coalition and eternal horse trading with the minority tail wagging the majority dog...
What is even more annoying is that the BBC in Wales don't seem to be taking an impartial and independent view of this by reporting both sides of the argument, and deficiencies of the Welsh Assembly Government, equally.
Please 'get a grip' BBC - leave your personal views about the language and assembly and Cardiff Bay at home, and give us the facts and 'Just The Facts'..
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As if to prove my point one of the 'Top 3' news items on BBC Wales at the moment concerns the use of Welsh at the EU...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/default.stm
And it is Welsh, not British, taxpayers that are paying for this showboating charade from 'Ffred' [sic] Jones.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7739425.stm
And in 'other news', the fact that 65 people in Wales are going to lose their jobs..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_east/7739285.stm
Great to see the Welsh politicians, and the Welsh arm of the BBC, have their priorities right at this difficult time for the economy..
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I have been thinking(In my own limited manner) about the issues on this medium being discussed in their entirety and how such strong opinions are being expressed by plainly very normal people.We live on apiece of land which was never a seperate country in reality and was joined with England under HenryV111 in middle ages. In reality we have lost nothing and Wales has been governed as all other parts of the UK from London with major changes through growth of democracy etc. The major and only significant difference has been the existence of welsh language and its value to a significant proportion of welsh people but and it must be accepted not totality of welsh people. In all other matters concerning normal life wales has benefitted from the growth of UK economy over many many years but has suffered as has other parts of UK during economic recessions/wars/BSE etc etc. I think the Nationalists continually to make the case that England has caused disproportionate problems for Wales as compared to its own regions,and the lack of "power"in Wales has caused the low self esteem of many of the people who live in Wales. I am not "educated" but my understanding of history is that we received incredible investments of private capital to develop iron/coal/steel/docks/railways etc as did other parts of UK e.g North East/Yorkshire etc. Our farming structure is not all that differnet o similar parts of UK i.e Devon/Cornwall?. The very structure of Wales which runs north to south along England with strong economic pull to the east rangeing from BristolLondon then upt to Birmingham and finally Liverpool/Chester
has created a totally disparate economy which completely works against the grain of a unitary state for Wales. I must say in my years visiting Wrexham and that part of Wales the majority of people felt no interest or concern about South Wales as their economic/social/cultural ties were with Liverpool etc. The same applied to people further west however the main difference here was the existence of active welsh language useage etc,but I saw no great enthusiasm for things "south wales". The aim of devolution was to develop"national building" for Wales but I think it flies in the face of economic/social/cultural reality. We have recently seen the attempt by WAG to reduce availability of access to hospitals in Liverpool to people in North Wales and rather make them use hospital in the south. This idea was to save local "political" careers but has been stopped and common sense has prevailed. I understand that North Wales M.P's went to see the PM and end of idea. I suppose if you went to TESCO and said you must deliver you goods and services on a "ONE WALES" policy they could do it but the level of prices must be higher because it does not fit with "economic reality" I thought the idea of having more power in Cardiff was to create a more hopeful/cohesive welsh people but I believe the opposite has occured as there is greater suspicion of welsh language fanatics/nationalist who have got into the tent with all its benefits yet are seeking to destroy the UK. I cannot see where we go from here but the current "settlement" doesnt seem to be working to any bodies satisfaction.
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#24
Your views might have more influence if it was a WBC not a BBC.
You won't be the first or the last to accuse the BBC of bias in its selection of news stories. Its not particularly responsive to criticism. Programmes such as Newswatch are mainly platforms for the BBC establishment to justify their actions. Occasionally they accept they made a mistake.
Two reports earlier this year, one by the BBC Trust, concluded that Wales was 'the invisible nation' in the public broadcasting media, including, if not particularly, the BBC.
The problem with public broadcasting media journalists (BBC, ITV, CH4, S4C, CH5) is that to comply with their licences (granted by central government) they have to be 'balanced' in their political coverage. Balanced, that is, in the UK. The three main parties get roughly proportional attention depending on their parliamentary numerical strength or on electoral success.
Parties that represent parts of the UK, such as the SNP and PC only get 'balanced' coverage in Scotland and Wales. For example, viewers of the BBC's News Channel or the main evening news will see and hear representatives of the three UK parties virtually every day, with their take on political events. To get national and international news, viewers in Wales and Scotland need to watch the main news coverage where they will see and hear these parties' opinions. There is no equivalent in our respective countries. The SNP and PC are invisible. They are handicapped by the system. They may rarely appear on viewers screens in Wales or Scotland, because there are so many channels, and so few regional programmes.
How can they compete? Its not a level playing field. Its another element in the democratic deficiency of the UK.
The SNP wants public broadcasting devolved to the Scottish Parliament, and Scottish programmes to cover national and international news, a Scottish equivalent of News at Ten. We need fairer coverage in Wales too, but it must be balanced and free from political interference and pressure.
The BBC can never be balanced as far as Wales and Scotland are concerned, by its very nature. That is not to say it doesn't try, but it can only go as far as its structural remit allows. Personally I wouldn't impute any bias or political prejudice to any individual within the BBC. I don't think there is a particular party political agenda, although many contributors to Nick Robinson's and Brian Taylor's blogs think they can detect bias in one form or another.
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#25 Snoutsintrough wrote:
"I have been thinking (In my own limited manner).... I am not "educated""
You're doing very well, and getting your ideas over clearly, so don't put yourself down. (And please, I'm not being patronising, as I've no grounds for that).
We should be valuing all the contributions to the blog, if they are sincere and well-meaning.
Having said that, I disagree with many of the points you make, and with your views on the Welsh Language and those who want greater devolution or even self-determination for our country.
I do agree, completely, with your last sentence.
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SiT - why are you fixated on Welsh Language - There are many proponents of a Welsh Parliament who are not Welsh speaking - considering that recent polls show support for a Parliament at around 50% and that Welsh speakers are around 22%, then it seems that the majority wanting a Parliament are actually English speakers!!!
The farcical LCO system is bringing the latest devolution settlement into serious disrepute, and it is dragging down the Assembly with it (probably what Peter Hain had in mind).
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Brynt41 "Two reports earlier this year, one by the BBC Trust, concluded that Wales was 'the invisible nation' in the public broadcasting media, including, if not particularly, the BBC."
Be careful what you wish for.. S4C must be the most expensive TV station, 'per viewer' in the world, and if the BBC didn't exist, neither would it, and I agree that policies up to now from London and Cardiff have helped maintain this excellent and useful resource.
But there is a limit to what a Welsh Assembly Government could or should do in connection with the media. ITV want to ditch their public service remit in both 'local news' and in the provision of 'children's programmes'.
And sales of local newspapers across the globe are diving - if the Welsh Assembly are not able to influence global decisions at a local level in the Hoover and Bosch scenarios, can they really achieve any more with media companies ??
I don't have any easy answers - I just pose the questions - maybe the WAG can and will do more to intervene on jobs for Wales.
Maybe that clout could be used to press for a more responsive local media - but I'm not sure that in a 'globalised' world that shutting ourselves off is really the answer.
The increased autonomy that devolution has brought is a benefit, I don't deny that, but I think we need to consider how much value there is in travelling too much further down this road there is.
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Thank you 27+28. I can assure you I'm not fixated and understand that people (as some of my friends ) who speak welsh have a right to use the language and wish to see its usage in coming years . My concern is that it is extremely divisive in its presnt "political" stance and the forcing of it ever more into the almost toally anglicised areas of Wales and public and seemingly commercial life will in the long run prove counterproductive. The use of "opinion polls" is interesting but many people do not like to take "contrary"positions to good questions. Take tax for example. Everybody want better public services and says they are prepared to pay for such services. They can actually vote for parties offering lower taxes which leaves governments having to "fiddle"taxation levels as has happened here since 1997.As i've said previously I know of no one from my circle of friends who are ordinary south walians who express any confidence in what weve got and most certainly dont want them getting any more power until the huge investments inpublic expenditure theyve had show some return to taxpayers.In conclusion its all about priorities and I genuinely believe the bottom 20% of welsh society who are presenting such problems as a)lack of proper education b)health c)lack of work opportunities and consequent poverty need simply massive expenditure/support etc otherwise were creating an American "underclass" which will be disastrous for all of us.
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If the Welsh Language Act is modified and applied to all organisations and businesses as PC require, the Nationalists will use it as a cudgel to punish those who prefer the English language.
They will apply the law in such a way that only Welsh speaking organisations and businesses will survive in Wales.
There will be a tyranny of a minority.
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Stonemason - You may have a point, but I don't think it will actually end up like that.
Ultimately, I think pragmatism will reign supreme in matters linguistic. Just as it does when I 'nick' English words to use in Welsh when it is more handy, or we all use foreign words and phrases in English to speed us on our way...
Of course, there is a risk that a proposed Welsh Language Act would be imposed with draconian legislation, tightly drawn conditions and penalties for non-compliance.
But I don't think it will happen, because it will fail what I call the 'Monmouth Test'. Not part of Wales until 1974, there will a limit to how much they will swallow in regards of further language legislation.
Okay, the WAG could threaten them with all sorts of penalties and throw their toys out of the pram. What is the worst that could happen ? WAG could threaten to take the Monmouth Miscreants to the European Court of Human Rights for breaching one's human rights to be dealt with in one's native language.
Monmouth could legitimately point out that if this happened, and Monmouth lost the case, they would appeal, and make a test case that all citizens of Wales should have this right, including those whose first language is Polish, French, Dutch, Spanish, Italian, or any of the many languages spoken by students or other migrants to these shores.
I appreciate that too much of a 'laissez-faire' approach would lead to the slow death of mother tongue as it withers on the vine, and I would really hate that.
But I think we also need to understand that the 'sunshine has a better chance of getting the guy to take his coat off than all the wind, rain and blowing hot and cold' we do. I understand the frustration of people who despair that more people don't speak Welsh.
But it is a little like those despairing at the language [or should I say 'bad language', intemperate language and aggressive language] on the internet. You might not like it, but you cannot legislate against it.
Free speech is always going to be chaotic, anarchic, upset someone and be difficult to rein in, or control in tight parameters...
The 'Welsh Not' was horrible - so let us not go down an 'English Not' route.. Please !!
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lordBeddGelert, I hope your ......
"pragmatism will reign supreme in matters linguistic"
.......is correct, but I think reaction from the nationalists, to non compliance, will be devastatingly destructive, it will be a simple compliance question on the "contract to supply goods or services to authorities".
There will be no exceptions, if you are unable to comply fully with the Act, you will be unable to do business ..... until you obey.
This particular Act is the tail WAGging the dog.
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#32 lordBeddGelert,
Not just Monmouth - Pembrokeshire and other area would be unhappy.
The existing Welsh Language Act 1993 already is "imposed with draconian legislation, tightly drawn conditions and penalties for non-compliance."
While the 1993 Act only covers Public Bodies, it is a serious matter to step out of line and transgressions are investigated by the WLBoard itself.
Conway Council is currently under investigation because it failed to say the ability to speak Welsh was important in an advert for an Executive Officer in a London Paper.
However there will be a seminal moment in Welsh Politics if an announcement of a Welsh Language Act LCO is made.
If the proposed WLA LCO puts similar requirements on businesses and traders, as the existing Act currently imposes on Public Bodies, there will be strong public and business reaction.
I think the outcome of the resulting fracas will have a major impact on the future of the Welsh Language, WAG and Devolution.
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32 - hang on a minute - Monmouthshire only in Wales since 1974? That is a devious misinterpretation of the truth!!
Monmouthshire was one of the original counties of Wales imposed by the Statutue of Rhuddlan and also included in the 1535 Act of Union. Its confused status arose because of its placing in an English judicial circuit in the 1542 Laws in Wales Act, but has always been considered for all practical purposes part of Wales. The term Wales and Monmouthshire was used simply to clarify this point, not to suggest that Monmouthshire was part of England.
It did not become part of Wales in 1974 - but the confusion surrounding the legal definition of Wales was finally tidied up.
Monmouthshire is, always has been, and always will be part of Wales.
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penddu - actually 1968, when the Welsh Office had the Interpretation Act amended, but the 1972 Local Government Act stated that Wales was the 8 counties it introduced in 1974. Otherwise I agree with you - the alternative is to claim that Aneurin Bevan was English...
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penddu - try telling that to some of the good people of Monmouth - I'm not exactly sure they will see it in quite those terms...
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At #23 lordbeddgelert wrote;
"What is even more annoying is that the BBC in Wales don't seem to be taking an impartial and independent view of this by reporting both sides of the argument, and deficiencies of the Welsh Assembly Government, equally".
Just listened to the BBC Trust report, the argument against local web based Video BBC News, seems it will kill off local newspapers.
What was unsaid is that then, the BBC view, will be the view - we will be fed the one sided biased vision that the BBC is so good at.
The easiest way to dumb down debate is to argue people not ideas.
I find Dragons Eye and other Welsh political reporting to be mainly about personalities, not discussion of policies and explanation of various opinions.
The interview with the Lib Dem candidates was an excellent example, all about, who said what about who - nothing about "what is your vision".
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Mmmm I thought that tripod site was dead... time for an update I think....
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WestWales-38 - I should point out, before I'm accused of abusing our host's hospitality, that I think Betsan does a very good job of giving an insight into Welsh politics in a very even handed 'Martha Kearney', 'mix with all the movers and shakers' kind of style..
But it is difficult to avoid the issue that, just as with the BBC in Scotland, the considerable number of staff employed reporting devolved politics do rather rely on there continuing to be local assemblies, and it would hardly hurt their cause for them to continue with increased powers.
I'm sure most individual journalists work very hard to be impartial, and to quiz and question all of the parties involved. The tricky thing is it is difficult to 'bite the hand that feeds' one all the news stories and, for example, question whether devolution is working more generally.
But others may well take a different view ? ?
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So lets get this straight, people reporting on the Assembly and the Welsh political scene have an built in bias because they want to keep their jobs and expand their earning potential. People who support the Assembly either work for it or have some other connection with it, and politicians who want more powers for it want it to inflate their egos and paypackets... this is the main motivation. While those who want to abolish it want less government and have no other vested interest.
Like they did when the quango state provided safe havens for a legion of failed conservative politicians - to continue to rule us by remote control from beyond the political grave.
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Betsan:
Great receipe and I hope it works...
~Dennis Junior~
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