From the notebook
Scribbled notes from yesterday's conference on the Evolution of Devolution:
Hywel Francis MP on the Affordable Housing LCO: "There are unforeseen problems with the way it's been drafted by our esteemed colleagues and comrades in Cardiff. Is it what it says on the tin?"
Marie Navarro - lawyer, academic and devolution expert - thought devolution legislation was 'inflating' at a faster pace than expected but the first year was bound to be tricky:
"The first year is like the first pancake. In France we get rid of it straight away".
Would a referendum on further powers be winnable?
"I've no idea or opinion. I just want to know are we to have one or not. I want to know what game we're playing".
Laura McAllister, former member of Richard Commission, currently on a research sabbatical from Liverpool University at the Assembly Commission describing the process of the transfer or powers from Westminster:
"It might be cleverly-crafted and let's not get away from the fact that it is functional but people in Wales have not grasped it and the issue of intelligibility is key in any democracy".
The Western Mail's Martin Shipton on the same subject: "It is a mess".
Laura McAllister also came up with a rather neat, if partisan, collective noun for AMs: "an inelasticity of 60 AMs" and a body blow for civil servants: "officials are not of sufficient managerial capability to deal with the next step in devolution".
Cheryl Gillan MP on different perspectives in London and Cardiff: "There is a natural tension that we never seem to address".
Peter Hain MP on accusations that his colleagues take their role of scrutiny too far: "It's not a question of London modifying things. It's a case of what does this act mean? Does it mean what it says on the box? It's about asking whether an LCO transmits what it is supposed to transmit."
On the timing of a referendum: "Not in this decade. You might see it in the next decade at some point."
If the Conservatives win the next general election: "It may well be considerably sooner".
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~50~RS~)
CommentsSign in
You need to sign in to contribute to this page. If you're new to BBC Blogs, creating your membership is quick and easy.
I understand Peter Hain actually said ....
"The current devolution settlement was never meant to be a ?back-door method? of ?smuggling in? primary law-making powers for the National Assembly."
Has the PC/Labour confederation been caught using sleight of hand ?
Complain about this comment
'If the Conservatives win the next general election: "It may well be considerably sooner".'
I assume that this quotation is from Hain, Ms Powys?
If so, there you have it!
The purpose of Labour's devolution plan laid bare. 'We'll run our little corner in Wales, until its our turn to run the UK again'.
That is, if the Tories are in government, Labour will support a referendum on further powers for the Assembly. This is a totally selfish and self-interested party.
What about the interests of the people of Wales, in the meantime, Peter?
Of course, that doesn't matter to you and your cronies. Power is all you're concerned with. Why come to Wales, Peter? A country you have no connection with, whatsoever, to tell us how we are to be governed. We all know why. It was to carve a political career for Peter Hain, in a safe Welsh Labour seat. No wonder we are all cyncial about politicians who only look after their own interests. The Labour Party hasn't had anyone who could be called a statesman for half a century, probably more. Its a party which has used the loyalty of Welsh working people for decades to propel its intellectual middle-class elite to power. It has given nothing back.
As I've said in previous posts, its sham devolution, when another legislature holds all the levers of power.
Wales needs a wake-up call.
Complain about this comment
Laura McAllister is a Plaid Cymru supporter as well.
Complain about this comment
'Laura McAllister is Plaid Cymru supporter'. Yes, everyone knows that. She's also an international authority on constitutional matters, and a very distinguished political commentator. If you judge peopel not by what they say but by your conjectures about their affiliations an dmotives you will never get past knee-jerk.
Sonemason: Plaid/Labour sleight of hand? Hardly: affordable housing is a massive issue in Wales, right across the country. Successive Westminster governments have failed to get to grips with it, and it's only legitimate that the Assembly should now begin to deal with it.
MPs have nothing to offer - they cost 5 times as much as AMs and have massive allowances and [perks.
You could have 20 more AMs for the cost of 5 MPs. The AMs would take less holiday, use fewer expenses, and work harder and longer hours for their electorate. They also don;t get to keep the massive profits of their London homes the way MPs do, and most AMs turn up to most of the votes! See how many votes your MP bothers to turn up.
I'm all for a debate about the Assembly - provided we bring in a debate about Westminster too!
Complain about this comment
Why should there be an increase in support for increased powers if theres a Conservative government at Werstminster?
Everybody eligeable to vote has a say at ballot time and we must as the whole country accept the will of the majority as represented in M.P.'s elected at Westminster. Are people saying that any increased powers to tax payers through measures such as a)tax incentives for people to take out private medical insurance or b)parental management of schools are not acceptable in wales. We can see this already with the desire of WAG to restrict/abolish the RTB for social tenants. I concede that devolution means the passing of powers to a local level but to have fundamentally different laws operating under a unified taxation entity is going to lead to a lot of problems. We either go independant as the NATS want and have a welsh speaking "republic" or we accept the mature view that within our Parliamentary system there are bound to be changes of government between right and left of centre.
Complain about this comment
Well here we have it, "Snoutsintrough" limited understanding of Welsh politics equating NATS and a Welsh speaking republic...do I have to spell it out to you...there are many thousands of people who vote for Plaid Cymru WHO DO NOT speak Welsh...!!
Complain about this comment
What 'snout's' post reveals is basically that he hates Welsh so much that he will base all his views and all his opinions on that hate.
As a working class engluish-speakign Welshman with working class Welsh-speaking friends and colleagues, I simply don;t recognise the batty dystopia of the Welsh-haters.
It is very sad indeed that the future of an elected Assembly is called into question in this ignorant when most of its measures have had nothing to do with the Welsh language.
The Welsh language act, which gives very limited equality to WQelsh, dates form 1993, i.e. a Tory government.
The Welsh-bashers' obsession is divisive, ignorant, and actually detrimental to the development of Wales-specific democracy.
The Assembly has nothing to do with independence - it is about providing effective, better-value governance, and making our diverse voices heard in a more representative system.
I'm sorry you hate Welsh so much. We all have our blind spots and prehjudices. But please stop pretending that the issue of LCOs has anythgin to do with the Welsh language. Frankly the Welsh-bashers have nothing to show for their long-term (i.e. centuries-long!) control over Wales.
Complain about this comment
I stand by PC-Labour "sleight of hand" .....
they tried to achieve dishonest political currency instead of getting homes built, this coalition has lost at least 12 months of planning time.
The Bevan Foundation is critical of the Welsh Assembly when it reports .....
"WALES? law-making system is working well but is being held back by a lack of ideas,"
Is it any wonder this Assembly resorts to trickery when Helen Mary Jones, Plaid Cymru?s Deputy Leader in the Assembly, wrote an essay arguing that the current system ?isn?t working and, to be frank, never will?.
A poor workman generally blames his or her tools, might H.M.J. and her political partners be doing the same ?
It is not the system that is the problem, it is Plaid-Labour coalition, a perpetual compromise that refuses to bear fruit.
Complain about this comment
I would like to respond to 6 and 7 above. Firstly I do not hate anybody or any particular language. It is a right of people to speak welsh,however as it is a "minority" language there are practical problems when they are dealing with non welsh speakers.Am I to understand that PC does not seek the independance of Wales from the UK.?It is perfectly correct for people to hold such views but then to take part in GOVERNMENT seems to be hypocrital in the extreme,however power is an aphrodysiac. If PC simply stated that they had left wing views and wished to change Wales within the context of UK then OK,but this One Wales farce will not continue because of its own internal contradictions. One part i.e. Labour Party is firmly rooted to UK system of government because thats where power lies,however the NATS long term aims are to destroy the UK. There are many in the Labour Party who fight the Nats in elections are appalled to see them getting their hands on any sort of power unless directly elected through ballot box majorities. I am entitled to my views and am simply askingthe following 1. What specific powers do they need in Cardiff? How will it affect me and rest of people living in Wales.With regard to welsh language I thought the additional powers were need to increase the obligations upon the private sector with regard to the use of welsh. Perhaps ive got it all wrong with regard to these isssues but everybody I mix with has exactly the same views. God save the Queen.
Complain about this comment
The fact that Laura McAllister is a Plaid Cymru member is clearly something that informs her thinking. She clearly is not independently minded in the devolution debate. What she says is tainted by the fact that she a strong supporter and member of a nationalist organisation.
Complain about this comment
Snoutsintrough has the rights of it .....
Welsh, the language, is largely irrelevant outwith the realms of Wales. But it becomes very relevant to Nationalists who plan for their own pond (big fish in a small pond), it is the primary tool available to drive a wedge between the people of Wales and the remainder of the UK.
The flaw in their plans is their economic/political model for the future, it is base on a tree hugging Marxist agenda, an agenda based on a vision of World Government where the great and good, as defined by PC, will rule on behalf of the majority, not a great deal of democracy there.
Complain about this comment
Laura McAllister is not a member of Plaid. She was a Plaid nominee for the Richard Commission, a very different matter. Check the facts.
If we're resorting to the 'everybody I mix with' argument, then it would be easy for me to say the exact opposite of you., It's a non-starter.
Minority rights - well, I don't see the imposition of any sort of minority agenda, other than the syllabus, which teaches plenty of other 'useless' things, making Welsh a subject (which kids can give up before GCSE).
I don;t know a single person 'forced' to speak Welsh, and the number of jobs reserved for Welsh speakers is tiny (less than 10%).
The idea that we're being manoeuvered to independence (which you can;t spell, Snouts - so much for the dominance of English...) is a paranoid absurdity. You can be a monarchist if you want, but there's plenty of us, I can assure, who want a Welsh assembly with real powers, not independence, and want our fellow-welsh speaking Welsh to be treated as equals after hundreds of years of marginalisation, belittlement and systematic attempts at eradication.
Stonemason - you're going in circles: the system doesn;t work because it has not been allowed to work. Your answer seems to be to blame the assembly, and not the MPs who gave us the LCO system, which has been described by independent analysts as a 'constitutional mess'.
It's also you I believe who accused Welsh speakers of wanting to perpetrare 'etic cleansing' on us English speakers. To say nothing of one frequent poster to this blog who has written that he thinks English speakers are 'superior'.
The anti-welsh have far exceeded, in terms of crypto-racist paranoia and elitism, anything I've heard from so-called Nats.
As one who has worked in education all my life, I'd also be very careful about using words like 'useless' to describe a language or a subject. education doesn;t work liek that, thank goodness. Usefulness of subjects depends on use made of them. No subject is intrinsically 'more' or 'less' useful than another. Your argument is dead.
Complain about this comment
I meant to add something else: there is an assumption among the anti-Plaid anti-Welsh lobby that the Assembly is a nationalist outfit, and that all who believe in the Assembly must be nationalists.
This is merely political illiteracy.
The Assembly allowed the Tories to crawl back to respectability, and gave Labour a chance to experiment with different and non- 'Blairite' policies. It will also give them a chance of holding on to power somewhere in the UK when the Tories win in 2010...
To simply write off the Assembly because a party you dislike, but which has been legitimately voted in by many of your compatriots, has made gains, is to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
And if you're telling me that Wales in the 1970s 80s and 90s was a model advert for London rule you're deluded - either that or you never lived here...
As I said: to hate the assembly because you hate Welsh, as many of the posters on this blog seem to, is sheer ignorance, and is a case of cutting off the collective nose to spite the minority face.
I believe in the assembly, I don;t believe in Independence (or at any rate the case hasn't been made that convinces me), and I bleieve that it is better value, better run, more transparent and more ambitious, even with its limited powers, than Westminster rule.
Oh... and its elected representatives 5 times cheaper.
Complain about this comment
daverodway wrote .....
"Your answer seems to be to blame the assembly,"
I do indeed .. and I am not alone.
The Bevan Foundation seems to agree when they say ..... "WALES? law-making system is working well but is being held back by a lack of ideas,". Lack of ideas equates to the Assembly membership, the AMs.
.... your 'etic cleansing' I am sure should read 'ethnic cleansing'. In the context it was written, it stands.
.... your "Usefulness of subjects depends on use made of them. No subject is intrinsically 'more' or 'less' useful than another. Your argument is dead."
The argument is not dead, the language is, almost. PC made a huge mistake thinking a minority language could be used as a weapon in the fight for independence, except by coercion through legislation. Test the value of the Language, book a room in New York using Welsh, book a room in York using Welsh. These are the countries we do business with, even the French will speak English if there is a Euro in it for them.
Complain about this comment
daverodway wrote .....
"And if you're telling me that Wales in the 1970s 80s and 90s was a model advert for London rule you're deluded - either that or you never lived here..."
It was no different in any part of the UK, I lived here, and in England, and in Scotland.
I don't think anyone hates Welsh, but it is being used in a divisive way, particularly through Welsh Medium schools, far better I believe if the additional allocated money had been spent teaching Welsh effectively, in a meaningful manner, with pride across the whole country. Not through scholastic apartheid.
I am not apologetic for placing the blame for the current Assembly problems on the heads of its members. I can do this with a good conscience because prior to the current batch of AMs a great piece of legislation was designed and implemented, "Free Prescriptions", something that should be enjoyed by every person in the UK.
There is something bad in the woodshed, I do not believe it is the rulebook.
Complain about this comment
So you think I shoudln;t be allowed to send my kids to Welsh medium school, or that the 25% of Welsh people who speak Welsh shoudl do the same, or that the Welsh-speakers of Gwynedd, Carmarthenshire et al be alowed to do the same...
'Divisive'... moi?
So South Wales was no different from Surrey in the 1980s? Yeah right... where were you? Mars?
Again your obsession with Welsh is making you myopic about so many other issues that it's really not worth trying to get through to you.
Complain about this comment
#9 Snoutsintrough wrote:
"the NATS long term aims are to destroy the UK."
Wrong. As I understand it, and only the simple-minded couldn't, Plaid Cymru seeks self-determination for Wales. That is Wales would become a sovereign state, and seek full membership of the EU.
Plaid is a democratic party, with a lawful constitution. The Party does not aim to destroy anything. It cannot achieve its aim of independence unless and until it persuades a majority of the people of Wales to support it. Self-determination does not entail separation from its neighbour, England. Relationships between the two nations would have to remain close for many reasons. They are intertwined historically and physically. Its simply that we would be able to take decisions for ourselves instead of them being taken by a government and parliament where the representatives of Wales are in a perpetually small minority. A century or more of such government has left Wales relatively impoverished, one of the poorest parts of western Europe. Plaid's aim may not ever be achieved.
Your views on the Welsh language, and those of one or two others who contribute to the blog, are disturbing.
It is a minority language in its own country. The way Wales has been governed, from London, is partly responsible for the language's decline. A century ago, 50 per cent of the population spoke Welsh. Successive governments, of all parties, did nothing to arrest the decline, until by the 1960s it was in grave danger of extinction as a living language. Even today, although all the parties, Plaid and the unionists, nominally at least, support its development, little is actually being done.
Welsh is my mother tongue, and of a significant minority of people in Wales, even in 2008. Try to imagine what it would be like if your mother tongue was threatened with extinction. Some empathy, or fellow-feeling, would come in uselful. Your attitude is selfish... "I'm alright, I speak English, I don't care about anyone else's language"... even if it is far older than English, one of the oldest surviving European languages. Have some respect for other people's feelings.
Welsh needs goodwill and support from the people of Wales if it is to overcome the huge challenges it faces. By and large I find that goodwill does exist, and not only among non-Welsh speaking people in Wales, but also among those who have recently made Wales their home. Increasing numbers of businesses are supporting the language and providing bilingual signage, without compulsion.
However, as a native Welsh-speaker, my language does not have equal legal status in Wales, despite the Welsh Language Act. It does require more support from government. The government in question is based in London, for policing and justice are not devolved functions. Its a government which has failed to support the Welsh language repeatedly.
Its sad that we have a few diehard anti-Welsh contributors here. Sad also that some of them can't write English properly, either.
Complain about this comment
daverodway ..... your
"Again your obsession with Welsh is making you myopic about so many other issues that it's really not worth trying to get through to you."
I am not obsessed with the subject, I think the language issue as an issue is a non-event.
I think it is a shame Welsh is not taught across the board to a standard that would not require Welsh Medium schools, I am speaking about the area I live. It is criminal that the average child is unable to understand our poetry for example.
..... your
"So South Wales was no different from Surrey in the 1980s? Yeah right... where were you? Mars?"
Early 80's in Edinburgh, things were hard, late 80's Hampshire, working mostly in Surrey and South London. I have not had more than a couple of days out of work for 45 years, you see I got on my bike and followed the large construction projects.
brynt41 your ......
"It is a minority language in its own country."
The decline was not politically motivated, it happened because Welsh parents during the 19th century saw the future as the British Empire, then in the 20th century the language became obsolete in business as a consequence.
You raise an interesting point regarding "equal legal status", if it is with regard to "The Law" I would suggest Independence might have to come about first, as it is, our constitution is largely based upon precedent and is English.
Your .....
"Sad also that some of them can't write English properly, either. "
Not very friendly ......... quite insulting in fact.
Complain about this comment
When such individuals like 'TheStonemason' make these comments, they never consider comparing us the successful nations of Europe that live with two or more languages. That is because they do not consider Wales as a nation, but a region of Britain with a quaint history.
They patronise because they cannot comprehend why anyone would want Wales to be a nation.
Complain about this comment
#11 Stonemason.
I am one of the minority who not only speak Welsh but use it day in day out, speaking with my wife and my children where Welsh is our first language. I also try to use it to get services but that is very hit and miss even though those public authorities are subject of the Welsh Language Act and do have schemes. I don't think Stonemason can even envisage being unable to use his first language as and when he pleases...try thinking about it and then you may understand how the 'minority' feel. Any attempts to 'water down' our ability to use our language in our own country is akin to lining us up against a well and shooting us...its xenophobic, Mr Stonemason!! Your comments put you firmly in a right wing BNP, UKIP camp which is about as insular and inward looking as it comes I'm sure you are anti immigration and anti European aren't you Stonemason; you are pro UK independence although you are anti Welsh independence. I'm sure you'll tell me if I'm wrong!!
Complain about this comment
#18 TheStonemason wrote:
"The decline was not politically motivated, it happened because Welsh parents during the 19th century saw the future as the British Empire, then in the 20th century the language became obsolete in business as a consequence."
I agree with you, in part.
No-one is accusing successive administrations of seeking to wipe out the language. They didn't recognise its importance and value, in an age where as you say, British imperialism was at its height, and Britain became embroiled in two world wars. Welsh people were conditioned to believe that their language and culture was second rate in such an environment. High unemployment in the 30s led to massive emigration from the Welsh heartlands. Nothing was done to stem it or to alleviate its effects. Maybe nothing could be done in the circumstances. Whatever, the result was a catastrophic decline in the numbers of Welsh speakers by the 1960s.
I can remember in the 50s living in a 100% Welsh-speaking community. My parents, well-educated and literate in both languages, were keen that I learnt English, so that I would be able 'to get on'. That was the environment. We were conditioned to think of our language and culture as second-rate. If you wanted to get on, learn English, and get out of Wales. That was the mentality.
Thankfully, attitudes have changed, but only to some extent. The anti-Welsh contributors here indicate that the message hasn't reached everyone. The language needs support from across the entire spectrum in Wales. Its your language too, it belongs to Wales. Its unique to Wales. It can never be replaced. Do you want to play a part in its demise? Do you want that responsibilty, because you haven't stopped to think beyond your immediate prejudices? (I dread to think what it was which motivated those prejudices in the first place - perhaps a school teacher who wasn't good at his/her job of teaching the language, and selling its importance to you, who knows?)
But the language isn't a threat to anyone. If you can't be bothered to learn it yourself, at least give credit to those who want to, and who do make the effort. Its not easy to learn. If it hadn't been my first language, learnt on the hearth, I doubt if I would have made the effort. I salute and admire those who have done so.
Complain about this comment
Negrin .....
I am a Liberal Democrat voter who believes the UK is too important to destroy, and the language issues are for solving, but within the Union.
Neither anti-immigration, ant-European, BNP nor UKIP.
A dissenting minority .......... feels free only when it can impose its will on the majority: what it abominates most is the dissent of the majority.
Thus spake ..... Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983).
I firmly believe that the wrongs you may feel can be resolved, but as Mahatma Gandhi said, "You cannot shake hands with a clenched fist."
The Unionist hands are not clenched.
Complain about this comment
brynt41
I agree.
your "But the language isn't a threat to anyone."
It is not as others describe and write about the language. Where Welsh is used in a political context it becomes threatening.
Now, tell me how this conversation moved from "Welsh Assembly" to "language". I was hoping for a discussion about what is wrong with and how could the Assembly be made to work, as it has done, my example of "Free Prescriptions".
And so to bed, said Zebedee.
Complain about this comment
#22 TheStonemason
"I am a Liberal Democrat voter who believes the UK is too important to destroy, and the language issues are for solving, but within the Union."
... and
"Mahatma Gandhi said, "You cannot shake hands with a clenched fist."
The UK or Britain has an appalling history of the use of the 'clenched fist' or more often, 'gunboat diplomacy'. And its not just history either, the British Army has only recently begun to admit that it has used torture in Iraq. British troops are at this moment calling down US and RAF aircraft to bomb villagers living in mud huts in Afghanistan, and killing innocent civilians in large numbers. Don't take my word for it. Ask Hamid Karsai, the US installed puppet president of that country, who is politically embarrassed by the extreme use of violence by US and British forces. The grandson of the Queen relished the part he played in some of these activities whilst serving there, and wishes to return to do some more.
If you want to do some historical research, rather than reading outdated views on sociological history by an obscure American, look at the part Britain played in the colonisation of Africa, and the resultant mess the continent is in today. Or perhaps look at our activities in the Orient, and the Opium Wars, or Britain's role in the Indian subcontinent. Nearer to home, and more recently, how about Ireland, and the unleashing of the Black and Tans on helpless Irish civilians? And there's lots more that the UK can be less than proud of in its history.
In my opinion, the UK has done Wales no favours. The Welsh people would not have, even if they had the ability, tried to dominate and exploit large parts of the world, and glorify in military and naval exploits.
It was to the British 'clenched fist' that Ghandi was referring, the nation-state whose virtues you extol.
(Btw, the LibDems are federalists, they favour far greater devolution than the miserable Assembly we're stuck with).
Complain about this comment
"Where Welsh is used in a political context it becomes threatening."
For your information it was no 5 at the top who started ranting some absurd nonsense against "a Welsh-speaking republic", rather than sticking to the issue in hand, as if all bilingual people all think and vote exactly the same, please get a grip. Language like race and religion should never become a political stick to beat political opponents with.
And here's another quote from Gandhi "A mark of a civilization is the way it treats its minorities", little doubt if certain Welsh bashers had their way the Welsh language would have been consigned to St.Fagans a long time ago.
I am not a member of any political party infact I am disillusioned with them all, but I do care about our language and heritage. Welsh has made good strides in past 30 years under both Conservative and Labour governments, but more needs to be done to secure its future.
Complain about this comment
kathyjenkinsfan .....
Mahatma said many things, including ....
"I do not want my house to be walled in on all sides and my windows to be stuffed. I want the cultures of all the lands to be blown about my house as freely as possible. But I refuse to be blown off my feet by any."
Complain about this comment
Lets try again.
#22 TheStonemason
"I am a Liberal Democrat voter who believes the UK is too important to destroy, and the language issues are for solving, but within the Union."
... and
"Mahatma Gandhi said, "You cannot shake hands with a clenched fist."
The UK has played an important part in world history, I agree. But in my opinion Britain has an appalling history of the use of the 'clenched fist' or more often, 'gunboat diplomacy'. And its not just history either, the British Army recently admitted that it has used torture in Iraq. British troops have called down aircraft to bomb villagers living in mud huts in Afghanistan, killing significant numbers of innocent civilians in the process. Even Hamid Karsai, installed by the US as President of that country in 2003, is politically embarrassed by the extreme use of violence by US and British forces and has called for moderation in the bombing. The Queen?s grandson played a part in directing the bombing. The royal family has a strong association with the military.
If you want to do some historical research, rather than reading outdated views on sociological history by an obscure American, look at the part Britain played in the colonisation of Africa, and the resultant state of the continent today. Or perhaps look at Britain?s activities in the Orient, and the Opium Wars, or its role in the Indian subcontinent. Nearer to home, and more recently, how about Ireland, and the unleashing of the Black and Tans on defenceless Irish civilians? The Scottish clearances of the eighteenth century deserve a mention. Britain played a fundamental role in bringing about the creation of the State of Israel, and the immense suffering which has ensued, and is continuing between Israelis and Palestinians, not to mention the instability in the Middle East. And there are lots more that the UK can be less than proud of in its history.
Imho, the UK has done Wales no favours. The Welsh people would not have, even if they had the ability, tried to dominate and exploit large parts of the world, and glorify in military and naval exploits.
It was to the British 'clenched fist' that Ghandi was referring, the nation-state whose virtues you extol.
(Btw, the LibDems are federalists, they favour far greater devolution than the miserable Assembly we're stuck with).
Complain about this comment
brynt41, your .....
..... reference to the activities from history, as reasons why a single people with differing views cannot co-exist, is unchallengeable because there is nothing that can be done to change a single item.
your .....
"It was to the British 'clenched fist' that Ghandi was referring, the nation-state whose virtues you extol."
Is wrong, it was the Indian population just prior to partition. The Nationalists, Muslim and Hindu, couldn't see a future together.
As there seems to be no common ground between the Welsh Nationalist and Unionist might it not be the time to partition Wales. There will never be a peace until the Nationalist have their way, and there cannot be peace because the minority wish to dominate the majority. Where might you consider the border be drawn?
Complain about this comment
#28
"...there cannot be peace because the minority wish to dominate the majority."
That's plain rubbish. There can never be independence for Wales, unless a majority of the people here vote for it. Its for its supporters to do the persuading, as the status quo is union. So far, imho, they are not doing a particularly good job.
Ghandi's quote in #25 is very appropriate, well done kathyjenkinsfan!
Ghandi is not a good example for you to quote when discussing this issue. He had to campaign, or 'fight' (in his inimitable non-violent way) to get independence from the control and exploitation of the British Raj. Wales has been under British, (by that I mean a Britain dominated economically and politically by England) control far longer than India ever was, and the unionists will use every trick in the book to hold on to their last vestiges of Empire.
Complain about this comment
brynt41
dishonest ......
By omitting
"There will never be a peace until the Nationalist have their way, and "
from
"...there cannot be peace because the minority wish to dominate the majority."
you create a quite different meaning.
The correct meaning is plain, the Nationalist will never let go no matter what a voting outcome might be, unless it is favourable to their cause.
But time is on the side of the Union.
Ghandi is always a good example to quote, his non-violence is the perfect way to combat extremism, no matter what the flavour.
Complain about this comment
Firstly the Bevan Foundation is hardly neutral - its a body set up mainly by the more "British" section of the Labour Party in Wales. Its essentially a Labour think tank.
Secondly the proposed LCO gives the Assembly the power to pass measures on the right to buy, the planned measure will give Welsh ministers the power to suspend the right to buy in those council areas that _ask_ for this to happen... thus it will be up to a local authority to say the pressure on social housing is so great that they need to suspend the sale of council houses. Declining social housing stock is a problem - originally none of the receipts from sales could be used to build new stock, as the Thatcher government were against local authorities providing social housing.
The argument is how narrow the LCO should be. MPs have taken it upon themselves to try to restrict what the Assembly can do in future. This is not what the mechanism was intended to do. A one use LCO is pointless - otherwise there is no real devolution, you have the Welsh Affairs Select Committee having an absolute veto on legislation and through it policy. That was not what the devolution settlement was supposed to bring.
So if we could get back to the argument and not a slanging match on the Welsh Language I would be most grateful.
Complain about this comment
If the Assembly gets this LCO I would guess that every Local Authority will be able to make a case to stop the operation of RTB which was originally contained in Housing Act 1980. The people living in the said property needed to have a period of tenancy eithere there or elsewhere in public sector and there were sliding discounts dependant on length of occupation. Whats going to happen to those people who wanted to turn their home from a tenancy to one of "owner occupation" with all that entailed. If the LCO comes about their hopes are going to be dashed if their LA so choses. I go back to my original point that if more "social" houses are neede that urgently then WAG should adjust their budgets by cutting out "revenue" support for white elephants and spend the savings on capital investment. We have seen the proliferation of "ICONIC" developments as loved by BBC Wales in last 10 years which all need massive public revenue subsidies to exist. You cant have everything and priorities in public expenditure between "must have" and "would be nice"
are going to have to be taken sooner rather than later."
Complain about this comment
#31 Lyn_Thomas wrote:
"So if we could get back to the argument and not a slanging match on the Welsh Language I would be most grateful."
I agree that its usually better to stick to the point.
Essentially though, the conference was entitled 'Evolution of Devolution' and problems arising our of the 2006 Act.
Regrettably but also unavoidably, the issue of the Welsh language is a political one. Wales' relatively powerless status within the UK is partly responsible for the language's massive decline during the past hundred years. UK governments haven't seen the Welsh language as a vital issue - only as a marginal one in a UK context. Not surprising.
That is the very purpose of devolution, to address matters such as this. In Wales it is a very important issue. If we in Wales don't care about our native language, no-one else will, for sure. Nominally, the Labour Party has committed itself to devolution for Wales, but it is having second thoughts. Its a party trying to look in two directions at the same time. Unfortunately Wales is paying the price for Labour's lack of commitment. The 2006 Act and the LCOs are symptomatic of the Party's failure.
For me, the rationale for the existence of what we might now call 'old' Labour, with its socialist and international socialist ideology, has gone, although there are vestiges of it still to be found in parts of south Wales. There is no rationale for New Labour, as the Tory Party is alive and kicking. Why vote for the monkey when you can vote for the organ grinder?
Its down to us as the electorate to insist that they sort it out, and soon. Lord Richard, a Labour peer, in a report commissioned by the Labour led Assembly government, reported that nothing less than legislative powers were needed. The failure to deliver was down to Hain and the Labour MPs. I am convinced that their motivation was (and is) entirely concerned with self-preservation. As time passes, and the government of Wales suffers, these myopic politicians will get the blame, and pay the price at the polls. Serve them right.
Complain about this comment
Lyn_Thomas, re your last #31
John Dixon wrote today in his blog .....
"The core of the disagreement is the extent to which any LCO devolving power to Cardiff could or should be restricted ............. Effectively, the MPs are trying to scrutinise Measures rather than LCOs."
In this instance he is of course writing about Housing LCO, his analysis is I believe correct.
This is not about housing, this is the symptom of a major problem, Westminster does not trust Cardiff in its current or future intentions.
Snoutsintrough,
I agree, build houses, if the tenants subsequently purchase them, good for them. Better to build houses than waste money on political white elephants.
Complain about this comment
#31 and #34
It makes one suspect that it was the intention (all along) of the Welsh Labour Parliamentary party to throttle the Assembly's legislative aspirations. After all, the Act was theirs and Hain's creation. They scuppered Lord Richard's recommendations. The Assembly was/is to be a tame puppy on a short Westminster leash.
The truth is, we don't have devolution in Wales. Its a sham.
After all the support that Wales has given to Labour, for the best part of a century this is how it repays our countrymen's loyalty. It has become a petty-minded party, which has betrayed the principles which its founding fathers in the Fabian Society, and the Unions believed in so passionately. Its taken us into two immoral, if not illegal wars, causing the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians, not to mention the deaths of young recruits from Wales. Welsh Labour MPs have trooped again and again, into the Government lobbies to vote for its right wing policies. No doubt, Keir Hardie is turning in his grave, at the unquestioning support Blair and Brown gave to Bush.
And what is Plaid doing, whilst all this is going on? Ieuan, we're not hearing from you (or John Dixon, either).
Complain about this comment
Stonemason, you are correct. And this is the problem... its not the job of MPs to second guess what the National Assembly may or may not do in the future. Their remit is not to whittle down an LCO so that it can be used to restrict the scope of the Assembly's actions. That is not within their remit.
Complain about this comment
I am an Englishman living in Wales, my wife is a Welsh speaker and so are my four children, I am learning, [but then why wouldn't I, I live in Wales after all].
It appears to me that we here in Wales are in the very grasp of what is wrong with politics today, namely, common purpose graduates, where ever you find one you will see disconnected and malfunctioning departments, their aim appears to be to create confusion and to stop the various processes from working.
Sound familiar?
Complain about this comment
#37
Welcome tomireland.
Good luck with learning Welsh!
Complain about this comment
Tomireland - perhaps you should clarify your comment.
It seems to me that the problem with Wales today is that we have nationalists in government who are obsessed with Wales and Welshness. As an Englishman living in Wales, perhaps you are not aware that our once tolerant country is becoming a parochial backwater, riven by ancient and redundant bitterness. The weakness of Welsh Labour means that a vocal minority in the Welsh Nationalist Party which won only 25% of the vote at the last Assembly elections threatens the very cohesion of modern Wales.
Your baffling comment that 'common purpose graduates' (of which, by the way, I am not one) are the cause of Wales' ills is blindly wide of the mark.
By the way, this furore over the Housing LCO is obviously a means of preparing the way for the second Welsh Language Act which will cripple business in Wales.
Complain about this comment
#39 Notonationalism wrote:
"...the second Welsh Language Act which will cripple business in Wales."
Where is your sense? Its not in the interests of any or all of the political parties in Wales to "cripple business".
You overuse emotive terms such as, "obsessed", "riven","bitterness", "threatens". You refer to "intolerance", but you seem to be the one who is intolerant of those of us who have a legitimate and democratic right to our opinions.
It might have been a good thing if you had studied politics. You talk of "nationalists" who are obsessed with Wales and Welshness. Plaid refers to itself as the "Party of Wales", because it is concerned about this country. It is the only party solely devoted to looking after the interests of Wales and its people. What's wrong with that? It seeks self-determination for our country in the way that about 200 other sovereign states look after their own interests in the community of nations, rather than have someone else do it for them. Most nations, especially small ones, don't go to war, invade, occupy and dominate other people's countries. The UK has done that repeatedly, and is doing it right now. It has a long and brutal military, colonial and imperial history. I am not proud of that. Indeed, I am ashamed of it.
I want to live in a country which doesn't do things like that. I believe that an independent Wales would be an asset to the world community. Its people, with their long history of tolerance and understanding, which many smaller nations possess, would be a force for good.
Let tomireland speak for himself about Wales. I, for one, welcome him here.
Complain about this comment
Brynt41 said:
'you seem to be the one who is intolerant of those of us who have a legitimate and democratic right to our opinions'.
Believe it or not, Brynt, we all have a right to express our opinions but, such is the climate here in Wales, you really wouldn't know it. Let's consider the Assembly response to Professor David Reynolds' report stating that schools in Wales receive £400 less for each child per year than schools in England. An anonymous spokesperson refused to engage with his concerns and accused him of "putting Wales down". When will politicians in Wales respond seriously and professionally to criticisms, rather than merely accusing critics of being 'anti-Welsh'?
Plaid is a nationalist party no matter how you dress it up. Nationalists put nation above all else. I believe that all people should be treated equally regardless of nationality. One should not forget, either, that many Welsh people were involved in imperialism and, I might add, in the slave trade. It's so easy to wriggle out of responsibility in that way. Oppression is about money, wealth and power. Genetic make-up does not determine a colonialist disposition.
Complain about this comment
#41 Notonationalism wrote:
"Nationalists put nation above all else. I believe that all people should be treated equally regardless of nationality."
I believe in that too. You and I are citizens of a nation state at the moment. The difference is that I want to change mine into another citizenship. You are also a "nationalist", you support the existence of the UK, a nation-state. What's the difference? The UK certainly does discriminate on the basis of nationality at the moment, and so does the US.
As for criticism of how well the Assembly government is doing - the success or otherwise of its policies. Every government/administration falls short.
Many would argue that this Labour government has fallen very short and has put the UK in a perilous condition economically. Sterling has fallen 25% against the dollar and is at its lowest ever against the euro. We could mention other disastrous policy areas, such as Iraq and Afghanistan, or its control freakery with ID registers and huge losses of personal data. It has the highest prison population of any European country, pro rata. How about us paying for the new nuclear deterrent, and two gigantic aircraft carriers?
Your criticism of the Assembly is petty in the extreme by comparison. Do remember also that its not the "nationalists" as you call them who created it. Plaid is the junior partner in a Labour dominated institution. Labour holds all the trump cards there. If you want to blame anyone, blame them.
Complain about this comment
brynt41, your .....
"The difference is that I want to change mine into another citizenship."
In the process of course you will demand that I change my citizenship.
Complain about this comment
Brynt42 said:
'You are also a "nationalist", you support the existence of the UK, a nation-state'.
Why do nationalists always seek to project their fanaticism about nationhood onto others? Nationalism is an extremist and abhorrent ideology.
Supporting the integrity of the UK for the purposes of clean, efficient governmental administration (admittedly, there are, inevitably, imperfections) without the preposterous duplication and expense that we will see if Wales gets further law-making powers has absolutely nothing to do with nationalism.
Here's one definition of nationalism: 'Nationalism is an ethno-political ideology that sustains the concept of a nation-identity for an exclusive group of people. It is the discrete or implied doctrine which holds the preservation and independence of its distinct identity, in all its aspects, and the "glory" of the nation as a core aspect of its fundamental ethos'.
If you and your fellow Nats want Wales to be like this, it's just as well that the people are now starting to mobilise against you.
Complain about this comment
Devolution?
Assume we leave the Union, govern ourselves.
Westminster pays about 12 Billion a year to fund the Assembly Government.
If that income wasn't there, how much would we want to raise out of our own GDP of 35 to 45 billion a year to run the country.
I think we would be much more critical about how much we raise and how its spent.
To maintain core services, cost benefit & results would be the order of the day.
The electorate would look very hard at the Assembly,
Is it fit for purpose or a bloated extravagant talking shop?
Probably the Assembly would be streamlined and become much more functional, a different beast.
People and Politics would change.
A lot of our current AM's could not survive in an environment where they have to actual deliver.
Few have ability, vision, or ideas. Outside politics the majority could not command the salaries and expenses they currently get.
For the Parties,
Plaid would probably be reduced to a rump, It would be irrelevant. With its Nationalistic vision fulfilled, it would need to have policies relevant and acceptable to the Welsh People in the new environment, its mind set would make it difficult to develop those.
The Welsh are culturally socialist, so Labour would be there - but the new reality, the need to fund the future, for things to work, for there to be the ideas and vision - both the Tories and the Liberals must have a part to play.
What does all this say about devolution - one thing is clear to me, if the existing Assembly is not fit to run an Independent Wales, why should we put up with it now.
If it is not fit for purpose, why should it be granted more powers.
Complain about this comment
Betsan:
Nice title; I hope you have many excellent notes in the notebook for this story!
~Dennis Junior~
Complain about this comment
View these comments in RSS