I'll have what he's having
I don't know what Alun Michael has for breakfast but in the (redrafted) words of "When Harry met Sally", I'll have what he's having.
On Radio Wales this morning his verdict on tensions over the Affordable Housing LCO was a resounding: "Devolution is working. Hurrah!"
The Welsh Assembly Government have responded rather differently to the story.
"We don't recognise this version of events. Constructive work and discussions are ongoing with regard to the suspension of the right to buy LCO."
Under the circumstances it's no surprise that the Affordable Housing LCO seems to have been renamed for the element that's led to such strong words already. I'm thinking about "anti-devolution sentiment" and "potential constitutional crisis."
What there is - quite clearly - is a realisation that the Welsh Assembly Government is in a hole over this bid for power and that the best they can do now is find a way out of it. That is not, as one tired and frustrated voice put it, how it is supposed to be.
Would Plaid regard a decision to rework this LCO as a reason to walk away from government? Only Liberal Democrat leadership contender, Jenny Randerson, seems to think so. How would they explain to Mr Jones in Rhyl, who's just lost his job and who's in fear of what the credit crunch will do to his chances of getting another one, that they're walking out of government over the granting of powers they've no plans to exercise?
Yes, it sounds a bit academic. Dry. Irrelevant. Maybe but the way out of this corner will be scrutinised as closely as the bid for power itself. Not by Mr Jones in Rhyl perhaps but the way it's solved could make a mark on the body that represents Mr Jones and that is anything but academic.
By the way Meg Ryan was, of course, faking it in "When Harry met Sally". I'm quite sure Alun Michael's delight was anything but.
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~49~RS~)
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Maybe it's not as important as a recession, but Plaid have to think carefully about what it is they're getting out of this coalition.
It looks like the Labour party are walking all over us from where I'm sitting.
It's not only the housing thing, but we were promised a referendum on full powers and that has been pretty much silenced by the Labour party in Wales and in London.
And what happened to the Welsh Language powers? Again Labour has blocked them. I donlt know if it is Labour in the Welsh Assembly or the English party that is blocking it, but, Rhodri Morgan doesn;t seem to be sticking up for Wales. If he is siding with Labour in London on the housing isue, then he is probably doing the same on the referendum and the Welsh language.
I think Plaid needs to be much stronger in demanding things from Labour otherwise they will walk all over us.
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If it wasn't the Affordable Housing LCO it would have been something else. When a bully wants to pick a fight he'll find an excuse.
Personally, I oppose this particular measure, because in many rural and coastal areas the Right to Buy legislation is the best - only? - chance for many locals to own a home.
That said, I still support the Assembly over Westminster on this because there's a lot more at stake than just one LCO.
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IWJ is between a rock and a hard place. I don't envy him, but he's partly responsible for finding himself there. If he backs out of the coalition it will be damaging. If he continues, Labour has thrown down the gauntlet, and he doesn't have much in his armoury with which to counter... only the threat of collapsing the agreement. I don't think Labour in Cardiff Bay would lose much sleep over that, and in Westminster they would be delighted.
Eighteen months have already elapsed of the four year term, and Rodri could continue with a minority administration as his opposition will be divided. I can't see IWJ reviving the Rainbow option, either, even if the Tories and LibDems were willing to play ball. They might not want to be associated with Plaid after its suffered such a setback.
Its unravelling, as it was bound to do. The lesson is that one should choose one's bride with the utmost care, because on divorce she might take you for all you've got.
As Hardy said to Laurel, "That's another fine mess you've gotten me into!"
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The Welsh (assembly) Government may be in a hole but the Welsh Assembly is not. This is a matter of some importance to the Government but of far greater importance to the Welsh Assembly as a whole.
Why not put the issue to a vote of all AM's Do they support the LCO as drafted or do they not? If not then by all means re-draft. If they support the LCO then they must stand their ground and refuse to be pushed around.
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This LCO is not worth dying in a ditch for...what will it achieve? Wrexham Council have sold 2 houses this year out of a total stock of 11,000+ and I presume other local authorities have similar figures...so what's the big deal. What is needed is for the Welsh Assembly to allow local authorities in Wales to enter into arms length Local Housing Companies with the private sector as what they are doing in England who incidentally are accessing loads of money for that purpose. Why build new houses whilst developers have new properties that they can't dispose of them. There are private developers who are keen on setting up RSL's but can't get WAG support. Secondly, if we need more houses why doesn't WAG release some of its land for affordable housing, one of their sites in Wrexham Town Centre has been lying derelict for years instead of expecting Local Authorities to sell their land for affordable housing at a discount. WAG need to be innovative regarding affordable housing and abolishing the right to buy will not make a blind bit of difference to the housing shortage so let's bin this LCO and get on with doing something that will make a difference. As you can tell ...a subject close to my heart!!
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Negrin #5
your .....
"Why build new houses whilst developers have new properties that they can't dispose of them."
There are several major reasons to build rather than buy, but the primary reason today would be to generate household incomes from construction work rather than pass revenue directly to shareholders.
Let builders receive the income rather than speculators, it was speculation that got us into this mess.
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OH YES....OH YES......YES....YES.....YES!!!!!!!
(Run old black and white film of steam train coming out of Severn Tunnel)
The assembly really is in danger of total collapse.
Though the weasle-like management of Plaid Cymru just don't have the cajones to leave their snug litttle milch cow, and walk away.
There really is a sea-change in the opinion of the Welsh public about this awful waste of money down the bay.
Maybe I'm a little premature, but it really does look as though things are coming to a climax !
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from David Jones, MP blog 20 minutes ago .....
"The committee, it will be recalled, recommended that the LCO should proceed, subject to the exclusion of the power to abolish the right of council tenants to buy their homes."
I think you could be right Noah_sembly.
I would think any referendum is probably a non-event as well.
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#7
"The assembly really is in danger of total collapse."
Don't make such stupid comments, Noah. Not one of the parties wants to see the Assembly collapse. I'll explain why, since you don't seem to understand:
Labour wants it to continue. Its their tame puppy, to be in charge of when the nasty Tories get into power.
The LibDems are avid believers in devolution, or so they say. Federalism is their mantra, although if ever they get into power, their unionist centralising soul will probably get the upper hand.
The Tories won't scrap it either, probably because not enough people in Wales will ever vote for them. In any case its a pretty weak institution, and they don't much care for Wales anyway. As a sop to Wales they would leave it in place.
Then we have Plaid.. we'll say no more on them.
The One Wales Agreement is in danger of collapse. I don't know if IWJ has the courage to go for his 'nuclear option', but I doubt it. It'll be a damp squib which will damage him more than anyone.
So, you and I are stuck with the Assembly as it is, and we're both unhappy about it, but for very different reasons. Perhaps best to leave them to it and go for a pint, or two.
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there is not much talk of the referendum on a scottish-style Parliament in Wales, I think Lib dems would have been more better in coalition with Plaid...there policies are a bit more democratic and a bit fair...labour they're just mixed up, some are for, some are against...but a majoroty of labour supporters favour a Welsh Parliament with law making powers....and so do LibDems
Golden Brown was speaking at the NI assembly before...and he favours a Parliament for Wales...
Plaid-- I was talking to a group of supporters of Cymru X the Plaid youth group...not only them but Plaid Cymru supporters want to see IWJ sacked...replaced by Adam Price....
I think IWJ is doing fine, just he has no charisma and he doesn't get to the goal in voicing out Welsh concerns!
Adam Price would be a perfect leader!
I wonder how many members do really feel the same......
plaid govt. members are always on the daily post.....where's labour??? are they ment to be governing this country aswell???
Plaid must also work hard in supporting our native language, getting buisnesses and also all schools in Wales to teach the language...whats bad about Welsh! I dont see labour doing anything to help! its a shame really....why does it cost so much to save our native language!
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Can't wait for the fuss when the welsh language equality legislation tries to get through! What a bunch of idiots! It's not as if we're asking for the power to press a big red button! Stop making such a fuss. If MPs want to affect Welsh legislation quit and wait or the Assembly elections.
On the issue of Adam price as Plaid leader I'm not sure. Is he to radical at the moment? Then again lok at Alex Salmond, who is simila to Adamr Price in many ways and the success he's having.
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I would think the Labour / Plaid coalition will be dead in the water by the time the ill contrived Welsh Language LOC is launched towards Westminster.
Adam Price would be welcomed by all the opposition parties, easy pickings.
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Quite right No 12.In the "interview"been Masters and BP last night it was acknowledged that the RTB issue was not important,however the MAJOR welsh language LCO was of a different order and stripe. I suppose it shows the disaster weve got in Cardiff that at this time when the welsh economy (public sector excepted) is in meltdown that the good old welsh language gets such priority. Good god we can all speak english so lets get on with the real world. At the same time when housebuilding is stopping our need to be "green" is causing private builders to raise costs and hence prices to prospective purchasers. There aint people to buy them and do you think this whole "green" issue is to satisfy the vanities of the "numbties" in Cardiff? The idea that the "world" ia watching what were doing is risible and whatever Wales does in the "green "field is
of no consequence . Its called "gesture" politics of the worst kind.Quite frankly who gives a toss who is the leader of PC.
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Betsan:
I also, would like what he had for breakfast also......
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What is an "LCO"????? Can't find any explanation in any of your blogs.
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#12
Why "ill contrived Welsh Language LCO"? Don't you agree that every language, culture, human, etc. should have equal rights?
And #15 LCO: Legislative Competence Order. Though I have no idea what competence is doing in there.
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Just read article about independant report on programme made by BBC Wales about previous Prime Minister Mrs. Margaret Thatcher and her governments impact on Wales. The complainant ( thanks to him or her) felt the programme was "biased" and this was partially agreed by report. In particulat the comments by Edwards where he was encouraging people to vote. It comes as no surprise tothis poster of a sceptical that BBC Wales has to some degree lost its impartiality when it comes to both poitical and sporting coverage. Nothing will change as BBC Wales(Your nation/Your station) is out of the control of ordinary fee paying licence holders.
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Why is this 'Storm in a Teacup' generating such a huge amount of debate ? Seems quite simple to me - 'If you give an inch, they'll take a mile', so this 'scope creep' needs to be nipped in the bud quickly so that life can move on..
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"The LibDems are avid believers in devolution, or so they say. "
The Lib Dems are also believers in shipping loads of sovereignty to Brussels, so I would not get too excited by their views on a Welsh Assembly Government. They could not even decide between themselves whether to be 'in or out' when the hokey-cokey gave them the opportunity to participate in government.
The Welsh Assembly is fine as it goes, but as long as they don't try and get this 'saloon' to try and do the job of a 'truck' in towing a big trailer.
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-osian- #16
The Welsh Language LCO will, by applying regulation to the use of Welsh in business, impose costs that are both unfair and unsustainable.
We live in a bi-lingual country, there are no monoglot Welsh speakers, where a company or organisation wishes to use Welsh as a first language I do not have a problem, if the companies and organisations wish to disadvantage themselves then let them use Welsh as their primary language.
The issue of language is a very effective diversion by PC, but to the majority of people, they are not interested.
I would imagine many parish councils will have severe financial concerns regarding the 'professional' translation of documents. Once again PC creates a crisis where none should exist, this LCO was ill-conceived by all except the Nationalists.
Can you imagine the cost implications for small organisations such as local charities, it doesn't bear thinking about.
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#16 Osian wrote:
"Don't you agree that every language, culture, human, etc. should have equal rights?"
Osian, there are contributors here who would abolish everything, the Assembly and the Welsh language. Its the only policy idea they've got. They'd bring back Redwood and the 'Welsh Not'.
One or two can't even write English correctly, or spell "independent", let alone learn another language, so I'm not surprised they're dead against Welsh. They have no concept of human rights, equality or minorities. There surely has been something lacking in the education system, as these people are adults, the Assembly's control of the schools can't be blamed for their ignorance, can it?
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I wonder what the public want.
Hain accepted that he would loose a referendum on more powers for the assembly - but the government went ahead and gave some. Now parts of the Assembly are agitating for more, - with public support - I don't believe so.
The Assembly is not delivering on the devolved powers it already has.
The Labour vote at the last Assembly elections collapsed partly because on the mismanagement of the Health service.
The way the current Welsh Language Act being imposed, is creating a very negative popular revolution against the language in some parts of Wales.
The act certainly needs revision, as do the terms of reference to the Welsh Language Board.
Devolution was carried by the vote of 25% of the electorate.
Plaid had only about a quarter of the popular vote at the last election - about the same as the Tories.
Yet it is the Plaid agenda that is being driven forward.
It seems that powers are being slowly being transferred to the EU without the approval of the British people by political machination.
The lesson has not been lost on Plaid who are now trying to use political pressure to transfer powers to the Assembly, without the consent of the Welsh people.
Surely we should settle this properly - if those agitating for more powers and more stringent language policies believe they have the support of the Welsh people they should ask them.
Lets have a referendum - not just on Powers but whether or not we want this Assembly to continue.
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#20 TheStonemason wrote:
"The Welsh Language LCO will, by applying regulation to the use of Welsh in business, impose costs that are both unfair and unsustainable."
A LCO does nothing but give the Assembly powers to legislate within the 'competence' of the Order.
If the Assembly decides to extend Welsh language regulation into the private sector, it will be via a majority in the Assembly, with the consent of the WAC, the tacit approval of the House of Commons, and the Lords. So you could take issue with all of the above.
No party, Labour or Plaid, has an interest in damaging the Welsh economy, and the Assembly will not put excessive burdens on businesses, such as they cannot handle.
Regarding the public sector, such as community councils, they are already covered by the terms of the Welsh Language Act 1993, which set up the Welsh Language Board. Its terms haven't been rigidly enforced by the Board, despite 15 years having passed. So there is sensitivity.
However, patently, the language does need strengthening both in the public and private sector. If the Assembly didn't exist, there is good reason to believe that Westminster would legislate in any case, whichever party was in power. Labour, Conservatives and the LibDems support the Welsh language.
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#22 West-Wales
You don't half write a load of rubbish.
Labour created the Assembly. Labour passed the 2006 Act. Every legislative competence application has to be approved by the Labour dominated Welsh Affairs Committee, and laid before the Labour controlled House of Commons. The unelected House of Lords has a veto, and so does the Labour Secretary of State for Wales.
Plaid is the junior partner in the coalition.
As far as majorities are concerned, no Westminster government in living memory has achieved over 50% of the popular vote. Very few get 40% and yet have huge majorities in the Commons... both Thatcher and Blair did.
You obviously support UKIP's desire for the return of sovereignty to the UK from the EU. What's wrong with our desire to get sovereignty back from Westminster? The UK entered Europe by a democratic vote in Parliament. Wales was conquered, subjugated, occupied and exploited by military force. Its people, language, and culture were treated with contempt for centuries. What's wrong with redressing some of that. Yet you get offended by some bland Welsh language legislation proposals.
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I think you have the rights of it West-Wales, when you write ....
"The lesson has not been lost on Plaid who are now trying to use political pressure to transfer powers to the Assembly, without the consent of the Welsh people."
The majority of Welsh people are not inclined towards the aims of PC, that is the aims they are aware of, under a veneer of respectability exists a very left wing political agenda. Read Leanne Wood, her blog is a perfect example, Adam Price is interesting when he writes in English, you can get an appreciation of the long term intentions, he has taken to writing in Welsh.
The 'Welsh Not' was the creation of the Welsh brynt41, it existed amongst a small number of communities that were hell bent on educating their children for what they saw as the future, that old chestnut is held dear by PC to support the downtrodden version of Welsh life in general. Not for serious discussion.
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brynt41, your .....
"...... the Assembly will not put excessive burdens on businesses, such as they cannot handle. "
We have the possibility of politicians deciding what is a burden and what can be handled, these are the people who are unable to balance their own books, I am flabergasted !
Even a fraction of one percent may be the difference between success and failure. This has nightmarish connotations.
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Once this LCO comes operational the welsh language fanatics will be pushing WAG for it to applied writ large as any body opposing it will be tarnished as "welsh language" hater. Where every private sector employee is facing cuts in hours/redundancy etc even discussing increased costs that are not absolutely necessary is madness. To people outside Wales we must look as though were losing our senses,except that the great majority dont give a stuff what happens .
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Brynt41
If you think it's rubbish to consider what the people want and need - then you are in the company of some pretty unsavoury characters!
I support a referendum on the Lisbon Constitutional treaty
It was promised by all political parties at the General Election. Because it is widely recognised that The Common Market we voted to join is a very different beast from what we have now. I do not support or belong to UKIP!
But the important point here - is that before more legislation is imposed, particularly draconian language legislation - the consent of the Welsh people should be sought.
Here in West Wales small councils are having to raise their precepts by 25% just to meet the requirements of the current legislation - most of these councils have no Welsh speakers, and virtually none in their communities.
All translation services have to be bought in, and nobody uses them.
The proposal to impose the same obligation on Business is frankly stupid - and says a great deal about the mind set of those who propose it.
Of course we should encourage the use of Welsh, teach it in schools, support the culture, music & literature that goes with it.
But lets stop believing its the universal language of Wales, it isn't.
Only 20%(2001 census) of the population speak Welsh and only 16% can read and write it, none to my knowledge are monoglot, and only 14% use it daily.
Before The Welsh Language Board started to enforce the current Act on Town and Community Councils here, the Welsh Language was doing well - but not now. The popular view is negative and getting worse.
What was fun and part of being Welsh is now costing money, getting in the way and becoming a nuisance.
The existing and proposed legislation is just cutting our throats environmentaly, economically and culturally.
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#20
The only conclusion that I can draw from your comment is that you believe that cost takes precedence over equal rights.
Surely righteous and honourable Britain would fight for equality, no matter what the cost?
And besides wouldn't all the translation 'cost' be of benefit to the Welsh economy? As you are unlikely to find a Welsh translating company anywhere else. That also brings up the question of wether councils and government should be carrying out their work in Welsh and then translating it into English in the first place.
"We live in a bi-lingual country"
Do we really? A bilingual country is one where two languages are given equal rights. Only an idiot would think that the Welsh has the same 'equal' status as English. That just shows how little consideration you give to the minority.
As to #21...
I don't think we can blame the Assembly...probably still waiting for the appropriate LCO!
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It has got to the stage where it is difficult to comment further, so I will leave you with my last blog entry ......
The ass and its shadow, or ..........
.......... Is that what we agreed to Rhodri, we think so Ieuan.
A Traveller had hired an Ass to carry him to a distant part of the country. The owner of the Ass went with the Traveller, walking beside him to drive the Ass and point out the way.
The road led across a treeless plain where the Sun beat down fiercely. So intense did the heat become, that the Traveller at last decided to stop for a rest, and as there was no other shade to be found, the Traveller sat down in the shadow of the Ass.
Now the heat had affected the Driver as much as it had the Traveller, and even more, for he had been walking. Wishing also to rest in the shade cast by the Ass, he began to quarrel with the Traveller, saying he had hired the Ass and not the shadow it cast.
The two soon came to blows, and while they were fighting, the Ass took to its heels.
In quarrelling about the shadow we often lose the substance..... Thus spake Aesop.
The "Affordable Housing LCO", are PC and Labour quarrelling over shadows, while the people wait for homes ?
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Thank you "Stonemason" and your well educated. I get the story after your penultimate paragraph. Your last paragraph is right as at the end of day they public pay taxes out of hard work (the ones who do) want to see "bangs for their buck" rather than wasting money on equal opportunity gimmicks. If I was welsh speaking with children in same category then I could see point of it all but considering the state were in it does seem pretty irrelevant.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#30 The Stonemason wrote:
"A Traveller had hired an Ass to carry him to a distant part of the country. The owner of the Ass went with the Traveller, walking beside him to drive the Ass and point out the way."
Are we to conclude that you are now an asinine moralist?
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brynt41 asks the question .....
"Are we to conclude that you are now an asinine moralist?"
Well, I have the flexibility of an idealogical centrist, could that make me asinine moralist?
I haven't been called an ass since my school-days.
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#34 TheStonemason wrote:
"Well, I have the flexibility of an idealogical centrist, could that make me asinine moralist?
I haven't been called an ass since my school-days."
Re #32, the mods didn't like that word.
When I first started reading your fable, I did wonder if it was going to have the dramatic ending...... "... and I was that Ass".
At my age I don't have much flexibility and I'm not an "ideological centrist" whatever that is, ... but I'm all for a free and independent Wales, your worst nightmare, it seems.
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brynt41,
It should have read "ideologically flexible centrist"
Centrists recognize the complexity of public policy choices and look to many kinds of solutions. Which solution depends on the circumstances, the problem, and the public interest.
I tend away from any dogmatic ideology, so Nationalism could be described as nightmarish.
The "Affordable Housing LCO", the basis of this discussion, is being destroyed by people who are not prepared to work together, not centrists for sure, both sides are shameful in their actions.
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Stonemason
"Centrists recognize the complexity of public policy choices and look to many kinds of solutions. Which solution depends on the circumstances, the problem, and the public interest"
Strongly agree with that - main reason I object to politics in local Councils.
The Affordable Housing LCO has a much wider scope than it says on the cover, and if passed would give the Assembly powers that should only be granted by referendum.
We have a situation in Wales where a minority, with extreme radical views, is trying to force through ideology based legislation, which has little to do with what Wales needs - but a lot about nationalistic social engineering.
The dream when examined is, as you say, a nightmare!
The media are stirring the pot, facts are conveniently obscured, we are having to dig deep to find the reality of what is going on.
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Is Stonemason going to answer any of my questions about equality? The fact that the majority doesn't wan it does't mean it shouldn't happen. The majority of people living in China don't want independence or autonomy for Tibet, Israel wants to extend it's influence in Palestine, Russia wants to disrupt Georgia as much as possible, etc. Just because the majority is doing these things doesn't make them right.
As to #37
I doubt that some people would realise the reality if it came up and bit them on an animal refered to earlier in the blog!
Your comments on ideology, the ideology being equal rights for all, don't you agree with equal rights?
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I'm sorry -osian- ,
Is your question something like .....
"the needs of the few can outweigh the needs of the many".
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osian
"Your comments on ideology, the ideology being equal rights for all, don't you agree with equal rights?"
Smoke & mirrors - you know this has nothing to do with equality.
As Brynt41 put it above,
"Wales was conquered, subjugated, occupied and exploited by military force. Its people, language, and culture were treated with contempt for centuries. What's wrong with redressing some of that."
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Surely this misses the point? Why are so many people in Wales wanting the right to buy and more importantly why is the LCO not forthcoming?
Sadly so many people in Wales are now and have historically been, poorly educated, poorly paid and grossly undervalued, not only under Westminster governments, but also those in Welsh Administrations, including the current one.
Secondly that lack of education over so many generations leads to a genuine (and unfortunate) lack of competence in all walks of life, hence NO LCO. It would be bad for Wales to have one now.
It is a sad fact that Romania, Bulgaria and Eastern Soviet Bloc countries have better educated leaders, Civil servants and businessmen, fluent in not only languages but the one thing missing in so many 'Academic' politicians and local councillors in Wales - a real grasp of commonsense practical knowledge of how to get things done on the ground, now, not tomorrow or next year.
My advice would be, for goodness sake stop wasting tax payers money with constant 'academic idealisim', political posturing and excuses. Instead,
just get on with meeting the needs of the people.
If the younger generations in Wales could have the same drive and enthusiasm as their youthful counterparts in governments and businesses in other Countries, LCO may eventually arrive.
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#39
Is that like "tyranny of the majority"? Try reading Dahl, John Stuart Mill and Lijphart else what you are proposing is similar to Northern Ireland from 1921 onwards.
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Just been looking at Western Mail online and articles by Martin Shipton in relation to book called Wales 21 st Century. It appears all the great welsh minds have written pieces for book. Does any body know who published this book?. Apparently the PC MP Price has stated that for the One Wales" farce to go on there must be PC First Minister for 2 years. This is a must buy!!
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#43
"Does any body know who published this book?"
Its published jointly by the Institute of Welsh Affairs and the Wales Governance Centre at Cardiff University and available to order online from the IWA at ten pounds plus p and p.
You failed to mention that in his chapter Rhodri Morgan says that Labour "has sometimes given as being reluctant advocates for the Welsh language, reluctant on more powers for the Assembly, and reluctant exponents of Welsh identity have allowed party to be portrayed as ?London-dominated?, with the Conservatives, in particular, repositioning themselves as more pro-Welsh than Labour."
He's absolutely right. What are we to think of his Party? Successive Labour governments from the 70s onwards did nothing for Wales. Plaid had to force Callaghan who needed their support in the Commons to do something for the slate quarrymen injured by dust.
Labour has an abysmal record as far as Wales is concerned. There's been a massive lack of investment in our infrastructure, in roads, railways, schools and hospitals. Only one motorway, no electrified lines. Only one proper medical school... when there was an acute shortage of GPs. Only one dental school. Its done nothing for the Welsh Language.
It allowed its MPs from Wales to selfishly wreck the sensible proposals made by Ivor Richard, a Labour peer, for straightforward legislative powers, so that we can have proper government in Wales. It parachuted Peter Hain into Neath when he had no interest in Wales whatsoever, and then made him Secretary of State. Its his daft idea that's causing problems right now.
I note from the press comments that Rhodri isn't particularly forthcoming about exactly what he proposes to do to present his party in a better light. Imo the first step would be to deselect those midget-minded MPs who have done their country down simply to hold on to their cushy seats. Why not start with Aun Michael, and the arch-devolutionist, Paul Murphy, now ensconced in the Welsh Office?
I've had my go at Labour.
I wonder why IWJ didn't contribute a chapter to this book? Bolstering a failing Labour party isn't going to do much good for Plaid, by association. For me the 'stable government' argument doesn't wash. The LibDems floundered after getting into bed with Labour. IWJ got a very poor deal in the ministerial portfolios, only three, and no major ministries. Says much for his poor negotiating skills. Adam Price has to be joking if he thinks that Labour, with their track record, will allow IWJ or anyone else from Plaid to hold the top job. There isn't any real pressure on Labour to change, as they've emasculated Plaid, so there's no opposition in the Assembly. And lastly, how could IWJ have ever taken seriously the possibility that Labour would wholeheartedly support a Yes vote in the referendum? After having been an MP, and an AM for years, hadn't he learned anything about his opponents?
You jumped... in the wrong direction, sorry, Ieuan.
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Thank you brynt 41 for information. Sorry to disagree with your analysis as above. For your information James Callaghan "encouraged" Henry Ford to set his major engine plant in Bridgend when he was PM. He also transferred the mint from London to Llantrisant when he was Chancellor of Exchequor. And by the way to "rub salt" our Prince of wales encouraged the owner of SONY when he was in Japan in 60's to open their european plant in Wales which they did in Bridgend.The two examples of James Callaghan show to me how important it is to have welsh M'P's obtaining high officewhere as we can see all the power rests. In conclusion Plaid Cymru are an irrelevance except to get under the noses of the Labour Party.Thank you once again.
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#45
You're welcome.
You cite two examples of overseas firms investing in Wales, and the transfer of the mint to Llantrisant. The fomer wouldn't have come here but for the very low wage levels pertaining then (as now) because of high unemployment. Very few central government departments/agencies have relocated to Wales.
Failure to invest in infrastructure has resulted in far fewer firms locating here. Those that did were mainly east of Bridgend.
The main South Wales line should have been upgraded decades ago, as there is a serious bottleneck between Port Talbot and Cardiff. Just west of Swansea there are five miles of single line track. There isn't the least possibility of dualling until at least 2012. It takes longer to go to London from S Wales by rail now, than it did 30 years ago. The InterCity rolling stock is decades old. Meanwhile, billions are being invested on upgrading lines in England. There is only one motorway in Wales, much of it two lanes only and which doesn't even extend to Carmarthen, not to mention the hefty tolls on the bridges.
Lack of investment in the schools has led to higher levels of illiteracy, poor skills and high youth unemployment. One of the consequences is that a far higher proportion of recruits for the British Army come from Wales, which accepts youngsters at age 17 with a reading age of 8 plus. These lads once they reach 18 are sent off to fight the USA's conflicts. (The US Army likewise recruits in disadvantaged communities). I want a Wales which doesn't put its young people in such an invidious position, and treats them with more respect.
As far as the PoW is concerned, the people of Wales weren't consulted about his investiture. He had no connection with Wales prior to 1969, and not a lot since. He spent a token term at Aberystwyth learning Welsh so that he could read out a few words during the ceremony without sounding a complete prat. In any case the English establishment thought that his investiture would weaken the growing support for Plaid Cymru, which was beginning to have a political impact under Gwynfor. If we have to depend on royalty to get inward investment into our country, then we must be desperate.
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#43
A couple of links to the articles
[url=http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2008/11/17/bourne-wales-appears-as-an-unreliable-colony-91466-22272228/]Bourne: ?Wales appears as an unreliable colony?[/url]
and
[url=http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2008/11/17/stop-being-anti-welsh-rhodri-urges-his-party-91466-22271907/]Stop being anti-Welsh, Rhodri urges his party[/url]
Common Snoutinthetrough - great Welsh mind is an acolade to far - these are merely the current bunch of leading Welsh Politicians.
For Great contemporary Welsh minds how about,
Professor Brian Josephson Wales only Nobel Laureate.
Sir John Cadogan, Prof Ross King, Prof Dame Jean Thomas, Prof Marc Clement.
There are of course many more.
Few politicians are thinkers most are movers and shakers who sometimes get things done - but rarely!
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Thank you 46. I really doesnt think it does much good denigrating two major world class firms like Ford/Sony who have been here 40 years and employed thousands of welsh people on terms and conditions that they have been very happy with.There are "economic"laws that presumably even PC cannot alter without changing the world completely. I couldimagine the "fuss" our one nation masters would make today if they could get such level of investment any where in wales. At the momement its all shutting down except to public sector jobs and we know how economically productive that is. Your probably right about "investment"over a whole range of areas not being adequate but there simply isnt the money/capital to put it all right and if we were independant there be "bugger all"for capital investment after the old(myself included) are looked after and the "sick" and general mendicants from the productive bit thats left of the welsh economy.With regard to West Wales my comment on "great minds" was a WU and they do not compare with people you mentioned . Whilst I think Rhodri is a disaster (as many do in his own party) he does have a first class brain as anybody who gets to Harvard aint stupid.
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I don't want to sound entirely negative about Labour's Welsh MPs... I have a sneaking regard for Paul Flynn. I don't favour his deselection.
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Since the inception of this assembly we have had nothing but bad decisions.
We've had scandals a plenty, expensive prestige buildings whose sole purpose was to give the assembly a sense of permanence, appalling horse-trading in the lust for power, free prescriptions for the wealthy, imaginative expense returns, increases in salary equal to over three times the rate of inflation (which they ALL eventually accepted).
We've had expensive opinion polls (paid for out of our taxes) in an attempt to increase support for an unpopular WAG. We've had free parking in hospitals which now means that it has become impossible to find a parking space. Plus, the sickest decision of all, that of spending millions on the promotion of the Welsh language at the expense of hospital treatment for both the old and VERY young.
I am ashamed to live in a Wales which has allowed this appalling assembly government to govern so badly, and waste so much of our taxes on such ill thought-out schemes.
By the way, has "Squeaky"Wyn Jones, the money-wasting prince of Plaid Cymru, finally broken the record for flying from Cardiff to Anglesey and back the most (50)times in one year?...Paid for by us daft taxpayers of course !
Unbelievable!........Wanna bet !
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#50 Noah wrote:
"Since the inception of this assembly we have had nothing but bad decisions."
Its record pales into insignificance compared to what's gone on in Downing Street and Westminster.... let's start with Afghanistan, Iran, cash for peerages ..... everything in between... until banks going bust, the pound down the drain... wonderful.
And you blarney on about the Assembly and IWJ.
How many unauthorised RAF flights to parties and binges has William been on? How many overseas flights has McBroon made these last weeks to give the impression he's competent, when we all know he's not. He's about to give a thousand pounds, by all accounts, to everyone on tax credits (his silly invention which has cost billions) by Christmas, and the rest of us will have to pay it back over decades. All so he can call a snap spring election.
You're so selective in your criticism, one suspects you might be biased and prejudiced. Hehe.
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Welcome back O Master. Your absolutely right in analysis but they need "more powers" to finish the job.I though this lot PC were greener than green and that flying was going to destroy the world so it makes you wonder when they effectlvely with Rhodri run an airline from Cardiff to Angelsey. I wonder how many of the "poor" ever get to use the service or is all politicos and high powered servants of the state.I personally have no problem with people flying but its the blood y hypocrisy of these people that get me.Its the same as Nuclear Power which apparently PC also hate but they want to keep wylfa going. I wonder why?. Could it be votes which keep the "little one's flying"
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Good evening Brynt41.and Snoutsintrough.
I fully agree that the Labour govt of the last 11 years has been an utter shambles. I can assure you my distaste for the useless Gordon Brown is as great as yours. You are quite correct that in the business of warfare the Assembly really does lag woefully behind the Westminster govt., though London has had rather more experience.
Cheer up though. The Welsh Assembly appears to be catching up fast. For the past few years they have been sending over about £100,000 or so, a year to Patagonia. This is a rather weatherbeaten land, rich in Guanacus manure, unlucky enough to lie both in Chile and Argentina.
Although the population density is a rather alarming 2 people per square kilometre, the money we Welsh taxpayers (rather furtively)send them, is to help promote the Welsh language, which apparently is in worse shape over there than it is here (if such a situation is possible).
My friends in the CIA however, tell me that friction between Chile and Argentina over the sovereignty of Patagonia is growing.
It surely cannot be long before hostilities break out. Wales however is ideally positioned to deliver the 'killer' blow.
Even as we speak, divisions of the Free Wales Army, resplendent in their "Army and Navy" stores uniforms, and armed with their trusty Webley .177 air pistols, are trained and ready for action. The advance party, paddling their coracles furiously, were last seen off Lanzarote.
Rest assured Brynt41, this will be no long drawn out, Irag/Afghanstan affair. Once those South American boyos hear our lads close harmony singing wafting over the Pampas, victory will be ours in the blinking of an eye.(Or even the winking of an eye)!!!
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#53 Noah wrote:
"My friends in the CIA.."
You have friends, too?
If you'd believe the CIA you're more gullible than I take you for.
The Welsh were suckers then. They too were gullible enough to believe the Argentinian government's promises, but ended up on the shores of a wilderness, sleeping in caves, after they disembarked from the Mimosa. Conditions had been desperate in rural Wales by the middle of the century before last, and these emigrants were among the many thousands of Welsh folk who went to seek a better life in the New World. It was a miracle that they survived at all. Their descendants are proud of their Welsh ancestry and want to preserve what they can of their Welshness. If we don't assist them to preserve it, who will?
If my memory is right, the FWA only had two divisions, and four legs.
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Good afternoon Bryn.
Although I suspect you already know this, but post 53 was made up.... unreal... a story.
I have no friends in the CIA....unless of course you count old Mike "Baldy"Hayden with whom I often have a round of golf at Whitchurch. He apparently has some lowly position in the organization but doesn't like to talk about it!
Good to see my story had you scuttling along to Google in order to "gen up" on how the Welsh found themselves oi Patagonia.
I'm still curious to know why the hell they need 100,000 pounds a year off the Welsh taxpayers in order to keep jabbering away in Welsh though.
What DO they spend the money on??????
(I would have thought a pallet load of duck-down quilts and some Primark anoraks would have been better received)
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#55 Noah wrote:
"Good to see my story had you scuttling along to Google in order to "gen up" on how the Welsh found themselves oi Patagonia."
Was already genned up on the history of "Y Wladfa", and the Rev Michael D Jones and his party of emigrants.
Of course I knew your post was a joke. (I emailed Langley and they told me they'd never heard of you)
I assume that the money is spent on the schools and employing Welsh teachers. A hundred grand won't take you very far in the world of education these days.
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noah
A quick look on WAG's website found this:
"The Welsh Assembly Government continued to fund the Welsh language
teaching project in the Chubut province of Argentina... The
project will receive £47,000 from the Welsh Assembly Government during the
2008-09 financial year.
The project involves the secondment of teachers from Wales to key target
communities, the development of native teachers, the establishment of
structured courses and the promotion of Welsh language activities. The
activities supported by the Assembly Government benefits both the
communities of the Chubut Valley (including Gaiman and Trelew) and those in
the Andes (such as Esquel and Trevelin)."
(Report on Iaith Pawb and the Welsh Language Scheme 2007/08)
47 grand - less than the cost of one AM a year...
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MadWelsh, your .....
"47 grand - less than the cost of one AM a year"
It would renovate 8 houses for the homeless, social housing lying empty needing upgrading.
Did you know there are approximately 9000 houses empty in Wales at the moment, Social housing, and the WAG are looking for ways to create 6500 new homes.
It doesn't take a great deal of imagination does it, but they are quarrelling rather than working, down in Cardiff Bay that is, Oh, and lets not forget, teaching the Argentinians to speak Welsh.
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Stonemason @ #20
you point out
"I would imagine many parish councils will have severe financial concerns regarding the 'professional' translation of documents. Once again PC creates a crisis where none should exist, this LCO was ill-conceived by all except the Nationalists."
Our local community council has to put in place a Welsh Language Scheme they are telling us that it is going to mean a 25% increase on their precept.
(this in a community with almost no Welsh speakers)
Just think what the proposed new Welsh Language LCO will do to business and traders in Wales - our cost of living will go up and the Welsh economy will be hit hard.
Our politicians seem to be living in wonderland - the sort of blue sky thinking that imagines spending £100,000 a year to support the marginal economy of a Welsh enclave in Patagonia by spending £100,000 a year teaching Welsh, makes a positive impact living standards.
LCO Legislative Competence Order - well if Westminster has any sense they won't grant the Welsh Language LCO - easy to prove the WAG is not competent in that area.
Come to think of it - can't think of an area in which they are competent.
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#59 West-Wales wrote:
"Just think what the proposed new Welsh Language LCO will do to business and traders in Wales - our cost of living will go up and the Welsh economy will be hit hard."
For goodness' sake, get things into perspective. Look what's happening to economies world-wide. No WAG, whichever party or parties it consists of, will risk damaging the economy.
The Assembly isn't just dealing with your community council. It has the whole of Wales to consider. Minorities have rights too, including those of Welsh-speaking people. If you were in government, no doubt we'd have a tyranny of the majority. Thankfully the UK is a tolerant country, more tolerant than some individuals who live in it.
As far as Patagonia is concerned.. why don't you read #57 before you comment? Its 47 thousand pounds this year. It pays mainly for the secondment of teachers, one or two. Its a continuing project, not a new one. That's precious little out of the Assembly's budget. Patagonia is the only region outside Wales where Welsh is a community language.
You blame the "nationalists" for supporting the Welsh language. There are Welsh-speaking people who support all the parties in Wales, most of which are unionist.
The UK Government is a signatory of The European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages, ratified in 1991. It has the status of a Convention. Member states must be able to sign at least 35 articles of the Charter. By signing the Charter, the UK for the first time enshrined its policies and programmes in support of Welsh as binding commitments under an international agreement. The Charter applies to indigenous European regional and minority languages. Part I of the Charter defines these as being languages which are ?traditionally used within a given territory of a State by nationals of that State?.
At present (August 2008), the Charter has been ratified by twenty-two states (Armenia, Austria, Croatia, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Hungary, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Montenegro, Netherlands, Norway, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Ukraine and the United Kingdom). Another eleven states have signed it, some of which are expected to ratify soon.
As defined by the Charter, ?regional or minority languages? are languages traditionally used within a given territory of a state by nationals of that state who form a group numerically smaller than the rest of the state?s population; they are different from the official language(s) of that state, and they include neither dialects of the official language(s) of the state nor the languages of migrants.
In a UK context, therefore, the languages affected other than Welsh and English are as follows:-
- Scottish Gaelic
- Irish
- Scots
- Ulster Scots
- Cornish
- Manx Gaelic
To date, and with regard to the Welsh Language, the UK Government has signed up to 52 clauses of the Charter. This is by far the most of any UK minority/regional language, the next highest being Scottish Gaelic with 39.
Welsh, of course, is by far the strongest (numerically) of all the minority languages in the UK. Under the Charter, the Assembly is able to support the Welsh Language community (linguistically, not "economically" as you put it) in Patagonia.
As you can see, most of the nation states of Europe are in favour of supporting their minority languages, and have enshrined their commitment by signing and ratifying what is in effect a convention binding in international law.
Some people live in a parochially blinkered world.
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Brynt41.
Your concern for the support of the Welsh language in Patagonia does you proud.
Us parochially blind boyos can only stand back in amazement.
So impressed are we with your vision and knowledge of the extremely important "European charter for regional or minority languages" (ratified in 1991) that we have decided to have a whip-round in order to rise funds so that you can visit
your Patagonian friends.
I understand that you are especially fond of the Chubut people. As you are no doubt aware, this proud tribe considers any stay amongst them of less than 5 years to be an insult to their hospitality.
With this in mind I am prepared to start the ball rolling with an initial donation of 50 pounds......start packing your case Bryn!
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#61 Noah
I'll charter your Ark for the voyage, if it holds water. Most of your arguments don't, hehe.
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Bryt41 - no one is suggesting you stop speaking Welsh or that we should not encourage the use of Welsh.
The issue is simple;
Should we enforce every Public Body, and every business in Wales, to duplicate every bit of paper, so that there is a Welsh copy (virtually all of which goes in the bin) and an English copy, which is the one people use.
Do we really need all Websites to be Bilingual, what about Blogs?
Do we really need duel language road signs - with the very real safety implications.
Do we need to make up Welsh names to go with English place names that have been in use for Centuries.
Is it necessary to insist that everyone who answers a phone to take calls from the Public must be bilingual.
Do we need full language translation facilities for every meeting even when there are no Welsh speakers in the community.
Remember at most only 20 - 25% of the Welsh population who speak Welsh, only about 10% of those are fluent, few can read it, and none who are only able to speak Welsh.
This isn't a game to see how many clauses of some EU charter we can sign up too.
Nor is it about stopping the use of the Welsh Language, its about Common Sense in making and applying the law.
Just stop and think what the costs of this unnecessary legislation are, the impact it has on the running costs the Assembly, and Councils, and what it will do to business.
The Welsh Language should be celebrated - but it should not be a millstone dragging us down.
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#63 West-Wales wrote:
"Just stop and think what the costs of this unnecessary legislation are". (sic)
Seems you know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.
"This isn't a game to see how many clauses of some EU charter we can sign up too." (again.. sic)
It was the UK Government which signed and ratified the Charter, which by implication you belittle. (Its not an European Union charter - Norway and Serbia, for instance , are not members of the EU.) Its in keeping with the respect for human rights and the protection of minorities which European nations believe is of fundamental importance, after the appalling treatment of minorities by the Nazi and fascist regimes before 1945.
"The Welsh Language should be celebrated - but it should not be a millstone dragging us down."
The entire tenor of your remarks does not imply celebration of the Welsh language, but the opposite. My bet is that not only don't you speak it, but you would never consider learning it either. Its attitudes such as yours which assisted the Language's decline over the years.
The European Charter seeks to redress the damage done to minority languages, and to protect them from further erosion. If a person's language is not respected, especially in their own country, then their dignity is undermined... their self-worth brought into question. Its a good thing that most European nations value their minorities.
Not everything should be measured in pounds and pence. Civilised nations are well aware of that, thankfully.
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It'll be difficult to celebrate the Welsh Language LCO, Brynt, if we are an out of work, hungry, cold country, shrouded in darkness because the Local Authorities can't afford to keep our streets lit. The people who advocate further vast expenditure on promotion of Welsh should pay for it themselves.
According to the Western Mail, Nov 19 2008, a delegation from Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg recently visited the Basque country to see what people there are doing to keep their language alive, and they've concluded that Spanish example holds the key to the future of Welsh. Wales must learn lessons from the Basque country when it comes to ensuring the survival of Welsh, they argue.
Not the sort of lessons you would want to experience if you like a peaceful life.
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