Three little words?
In twenty thousand words delivered to David Cameron in July, what has Lord Roberts of Conwy said about further powers for the Assembly?
We still don't know but what we do know is what he's been saying in interviews on Radio Cymru over the past few days.
Here, in translation, is a taste:
"It's not easy getting an agreed opinion on the Assembly. I don't think that there's been much of a shift in public opinion since '97 and the first referendum. If you look at opinion polls, fewer than 50% are in favour of giving more powers to the Assembly. The fact that there hasn't been a referendum suggests that neither the Assembly Government nor the Labour Westminster government have much faith they'd win one and there's no point holding a referendum where you end up going back to the status quo".
I wouldn't dare read between the lines but I think you can safely say there aren't many positives there. He goes on:
"This is my personal opinion and I don't know whether this will be the opinion the party adopts in the end: there's a reason why there's a lack of faith in the Assembly. There is something wrong. We've now had two acts of parliament relating to the Assembly. The government - even before they'd passed the second act - acknowledged the deficiencies in the first system they'd put in place".
So?
"I think we need some sort of in-depth examination ("archwiliad pur ddwfn") to see why people are so unhappy with what devolution has delivered over the past ten years".
Could the twenty thousand words lead, in the end, to just three: yet another commission?
I'm Betsan Powys, BBC Wales' political editor. I'll be blogging the inside track on 
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I'm not sure what the point is here ? Cameron is hardly going to ask the opinion of someone who is going to tell him that the Welsh are 'champing at the bit' for more tax-raising powers for the Welsh Assembly Government..
That would a bit like the Government asking for opinions for the consultation on the NHS from people who don't want their GP surgery to be subsumed into a Polyclinic.
Oh, hang on...
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Lord Roberts of Conwy, when he says "There is something wrong", uttered the Assembly understatement of the decade. Most people who are interested have that very same feeling, it's the knowledge that we have a debating society rather than parliament.
There should be another question on his lips, "why are the Welsh electorate not up in arms?"
Well, although something is wrong in the WAG, the wrong is right, most are quite happy with our debating society, safe in the knowledge that if the going gets tough, Westminster will be there!
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Ironically, the prospect, or the actual election, of a Tory Cameron administration, is likely to increase the level of support for a Welsh Parliament.
More telling was Hain's interview on the Politics Show yesterday, repeating his mantra that a referendum would be lost if held in 2011, and that it should be put back for a decade or so. He did admit that Labour was divided on the issue, which we all know only too well. The problem lies with the parliamentary party, who are so selfish that they would campaign for a 'No' vote, betraying their country and its people, and condemning them to many years of tory tyranny, simply to hold on to their seats. We need statesmen with insight, not political pygmies only capable of looking at each other's navels.
Hain would have us put up with the dog's dinner he created in the Government of Wales Act... for 10 years! We'll have to rely on those Westminster munchkins to dot the i's and cross the t's, and moan, every time the Assembly wants to wipe its nose.
Labour deserves to be obliterated from the political landscape because of the self-interested party its become under Blair and Brown. The return of Mandleson underlines the bankrupt state of mind of the ditherer in No 10.
Hain repeated once too often on the Show that he favoured more devolution for Wales, but the words 'methinks he doth protest too much' rang out each time he said it. He actually campaigned hard for democracy in SA, but his commitment to that country seems to have been lacking, considering that he didn't choose to return after majority rule to help build democracy there. His remarks don't say much for his commitment to Wales either, but what can one think of someone parachuted into a safe Labour seat, and then made Secretary of State for Wales in short order? Can we really expect him to have the interest of Wales at heart, when he's an imported career politician?
Anyway, Cameron's thoughts on Welsh devolution are irrelevant. The Tories have no real interest in Wales, but they do have a real interest in preserving the power base of the Union. As he said in his conference speech last week, he wants to be PM of the UK, not the PM of England. That statement alone indicates that he consciously or otherwise thinks of Scotland and Wales as add-ons to the core - England - to the really important part, which it is to English people, but then we're not English, and therein lies the problem.
We live in interesting times.
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I commend to you, two quotations of Robert Burns .........
“I look upon the British Constitution... to be the most glorious on earth, or that perhaps the wit of man can frame.”
“Whatever might be my sentiments of republics, ancient or modern, as to Britain I ever abjured the idea. A constitution which, in its original principles, experience has proved has in every way to fitted for our happiness, it would be insanity to abandon for untried visionary theory.”
Both courtesy of the Blogger Scottish Unionist ......
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brynt41, your ...... "The Tories have no real interest in Wales"!
The Tories do not hate Wales and the Welsh, they recognise that we are one people together with the English, Scots and people of Northern Ireland, it's not the Balkans.
It is as if you believe that Westminster contrive to create laws specifically to hurt the people of Wales.
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#5 TheStonemason
"The Tories do not hate Wales and the Welsh, they recognise that we are one people together with the English, Scots and people of Northern Ireland, it's not the Balkans."
You're putting words in my mouth... "no interest" = hate.
The Tories regard for Wales can be summed up in their choice of Secretaries of State:
Peter Walker (later Baron Walker of Worcester)
David Hunt (later Baron Hunt of Wirral)
John Redwood MP for Wokingham
William Hague MP for Richmond (Yorks)
Not that I have any dislike or disregard for all the above. In fact, I like Hague, and Peter Walker was a very able politician.
The Tories' disregard for Wales can be summed up (for example, there are many others) by Wyn Roberts (now Lord Roberts). A Welshman to the core, Welsh-speaking, served as Minister of State for many years, but not good enough to sit in the Cabinet. Thatcher and Major chose English politicians to run their Welsh protectorate.
I can understand why Cameron did not choose David Davies as Shadow Welsh Secretary, but even if he had other MPs in Wales, its likely on the party's record that the post would have gone to someone from across the border. The best he could do is Cheryl Gillan MP for Amersham and Chesham, who does have some connection with Wales, but her record to date is unimpressive.
"..one people"
On what do you base that assertion? I presume you would have included all the Irish pre-1922 on the same basis that they were part of the then UK. Peoples are not necessarily integrated because there is some sort of political union. The break up of the Soviet Union has demonstrated that spectacularly. Conversely the creation of the EU has not created similar feelings of being united across the continent, and particularly so in England, where there is considerable Euro-scepticism. I don't feel anymore European than I do British, and I don't feel British at all. Its significant that the Scot who wants to remain PM of the UK, is intent on promoting Britishness, simply because he recognises that there is some anti-Scottish feeling south of the border.
"... its not the Balkans"
The Irish situation and the 'Troubles' in NI had/has some parallels with the Balkans, because of deep religious differences. Scotland and Wales are different, the SNP and Plaid are constitutional parties, believing in the rule of law, and endeavouring to achieve self-determination by entirely democratic means, despite being handicapped in several ways, for instance, in media coverage etc.
Its for these parties to persuade their fellow citizens that their cause is a good one. Its not a matter of being anti-anyone or any country. Its a matter of self-determination, looking after our own affairs. Imo, that is the only way we can have self-respect and dignity in this world. Obviously, you have different opinions on these matters, as each of us is entitled to hold.
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brynt41 wrote:
Ironically, the prospect, or the actual election, of a Tory Cameron administration, is likely to increase the level of support for a Welsh Parliament.
Historically, Brynt is 100% Correct.
When Labour is out of power in Westminster party members tend to support greater powers.... or say they do... in Wales and Scotland.
While Plaid has always advocated Welsh self determination, Labour, historically, has only done so when politically expedient. This was the case when the Council of Wales was established after the Second World War (in 1948, after growing Plaid influence leading towards popular Gwenfor Evans election as party leader in 1945).
Beven, among others including Morgan Phillips and Clement Attlee, was against the Council of Wales before he was for it.
Former Labour member and Plaid critic Huw T. Edwards left Labour over what he said was ‘Whitehall-ism’ over the issues over Welsh self-government. The Council was unelected and though the Council routinely advocated for greater Welsh government to answer the needs of the people of Wales, the Conservatives and Labour punted the ball on the political court for decades.
Edwards resigned from the Council of Wales and joined Plaid in an effort to bring greater self determination to Wales.
Additionally, when Labour is out of power greater literature in favor of Welsh self-determination is published, such as Labour member Gwilym Prys Davies' pamphlet calling for calling for a National Assembly of Wales in 1963, echoing called by Gwenfor Evans.
But Labour retreated from endorsing any sense of home rule for Wales by 1967 because to do so, for them, was to give in to nationalistic sympathies. Of coarse, labour was in power that year, so the Welsh vote was not as important then.
So once Labour is out of power following the next General Election, leading Labour members in Wales (who ever he or she may be) most likely will be far more independent minded then Morgan is currently. You will see different language coming from the party more in line with supporting further devolution as a means to retain some power.... even in Wales.
Better to Rule in Wales then be the second son elsewhere. It is politically expedient for Labour to do so.
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Wales and Scotland are not supporting armed local militia who seek violence to affect their ends, as was the case in the Balkans.
When Welsh Self-Determination is realized, it will be legally legislated in the same manner as occurred for Norway gaining independence from Sweden, and Iceland gaining independence from Denmark.
Balkanization is a term Unionists use to scare the people into believing they can not manage their own affairs, and need to send their tax dollars out of the country rather then invested inwards.
The term should be ‘Scandinavian-ization’ or ‘Scandinize’
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I think the example of Iceland gain "independance"is not a good example for Wales as it is likely to be the first country to bust.
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